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Pod Save the World
Trump Accuses Obama of Treason
01:37:22
Tommy and Ben respond to Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard’s baseless accusation that the Obama administration masterminded a “treasonous conspiracy” against Trump and Trump’s subsequent call to arrest Barack Obama. They also talk about the President’s ongoing beef with Brazil and how it’s backfiring, the exile of a leading human rights organization from El Salvador, the deal to release prisoners from El Salvador and Venezuela, and the blatant hypocrisy behind this administration’s Latin America policy. Also discussed: the latest horrors from Gaza and the statement from 28 countries condemning the humanitarian crisis there, Benjamin Netanyahu’s bizarre foray into YouTube, the daylight between Trump and Bibi on Syria, the massive fallout from a British security leak, the rise of anti-establishment nationalist politics in Japan, the French Prime Minister’s deeply unpopular proposal to strip France of two public holidays, and some tidbits out of North Korea. Then, Ben sp...
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- [00:00]
Tommy Vitor
Pod Save the World is brought to you by Rocket Money. A lot of people aren't aware of how much they spend each month. Yeah. Do you know how many subscriptions you pay for? No. What about how much you spend on takeout or delivery? It's probably more than you think, but there's an app designed to help you manage your money better. Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bill so you can grow your savings. If you've got a goal you'd like to save for, Rocket Money can analyze your accounts to find the best time each month to put a little extra money aside. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you. The app automatically scans your bills to find opportunities to save and then goes back to work to get you better deals. They'll even talk to customer service so you don't have to. Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, with members saving up to 740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. I think, like most people in this company, have used Rocket Money for sure. If you're not using Rocket Money, you have some stupid streaming service you signed up for during the pandemic to watch that one extra episode of British show that was only available in the UK or some. And you've been paying for that for a very long time. And it started as the service to help cancel your unwanted subscriptions, but now it can help you monitor spending and help you with your budget. So it's. Yeah, it's very useful. Very useful. It'll take you to Mars. That's an Elon thing. We don't want to connect them. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to Rocket Money.com World. That's RocketMoney.com World. Rocket Money.com World. Welcome back to Pod Save the World. I'm Tommy Vitor.
- [01:49]
Ben Rhodes
I'm Ben Rhods.
- [01:50]
Tommy Vitor
Weird week for you, Ben. Our former colleagues and former president, United States, Barack Obama. We'll get to that in a minute.
- [01:57]
Ben Rhodes
But, you know, I was. I was actually alone in my house. You know, as, you know, as a parent, that's a rare thing on Sunday afternoon. And.
- [02:06]
Tommy Vitor
Oh, that sounds.
- [02:07]
Ben Rhodes
You know what I did? I took a nap, which. When's the last time you took a nap? You know, if we can get both.
- [02:13]
Tommy Vitor
Kids down at the same time, we'll try, but it's rarely.
- [02:16]
Ben Rhodes
That's that's rare. So I wake up and I'm kind of in that haze, and I look at my phone and one of our former colleagues had texted me this Truth Social post. And I pull it up, and at first it didn't seem real, because it doesn't. For those who haven't seen. I guess I'm in, like, an orange jumpsuit or something, but it doesn't look anything like me because it's like an AI image.
- [02:39]
Tommy Vitor
It looks. We gotta describe it. It's sort of like a Brady Bunch sort of mock up of nine former Obama officials. Right. And you're all in orange jumpsuits, but it's the AI Uncanny Valley version of it, just not really looks like you.
- [02:50]
Ben Rhodes
I look like kind of a mashup of me and like the evil strategist from House of Cards or something. And it's actually not flattering. I look kind of older and weathered. Samantha Power looks like a cartoon character. But anyway, I was at first like, what is this? Because I couldn't tell if this is a real thing, if this is really Trump. But then as I slowly woke up, I was like, oh, that's kind of uncomfortable. That's not something. I have to admit. It's not a pleasant feeling to have the president of the country you live in tweeting an AI picture of you in a jumpsuit, you know?
- [03:28]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. No, an angry, litigious president who's out for blood and doing anything he can to distract from the Epstein files. That's not the best combination. Guilt, innocence, whatever. There's a lot of lawfare, but we are going to dig into all the details of this and what the hell happened, Especially why Donald Trump is accusing Barack Obama of treason. And again, just doing everything he can to not talk about Jeffrey Epstein. We'll also dig deeper into Trump's war on Brazil and how it is backfiring pretty spectacularly. We have two big updates on human rights in El Salvador, the latest on the utter nightmare that is life in the Gaza Strip. We'll talk about Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu's surprising PR campaign. I've been enduring a lot of bad content lately, Ben. This is way up there. Some updates from Syria, a crazy story about a data breach in the UK that put thousands of lives at risk and could cost the government there billions of dollars. Talk about a big election in Japan, why voters in France are pissed, and why you shouldn't book that vacation to North Korea quite yet. And then, Ben, you did our interview for today. Would you. Would you talk about who they can hear from.
- [04:36]
Ben Rhodes
So I talked to Narima Waka Ojiwa, who has a Kenyan civil society organization that gets young people involved in politics. If you haven't been following situation in Kenya, or even if you have, this is an absolute essential primer to understand why there have been massive street protests, how there's been pretty extraordinary violence, including live fire into crowds, it's killed dozens of people, detentions of the young people who've been protesting, where Kenyan politics going. And actually, frankly, like, some real optimism at the end about how young people are getting more involved in Kenya and there could be a generational change there. So this is a story that we haven't been able to cover as much as we would have liked, given everything that's been going on. But Narima really takes us into this, and actually we'll put some resources in the show, notes for how people can be supportive of these protests. So tough story, but a little bit of hope at the end of it.
- [05:31]
Tommy Vitor
That's excellent. I can't wait to hear that. Thank you for doing that interview. Also, I want to say thank you to the audience, Ben, for listening to or watching the mini episode we did on YouTube on Friday and for subscribing to Pod Save the world on YouTube. It was really fun. You know, Ben and I are trying to just do, like, more things in addition to the weekly Wednesday show because there's a lot happening in the world and because we love doing it, and YouTube's a great place to reach new people that aren't podcast subscribers. Also, folks have probably heard me say that the right wing is killing us on YouTube. I mean, Ben, I saw today that the. This idiot Benny Johnson gained 2.2 million followers on YouTube over the last three months. This is one of the guys who literally took money from the Russian government is killing us on YouTube. And that is a real problem. Not because I care. You know, I compare myself to Benny Johnson. It's because when people search for political news and YouTube, they find this fucking bullshit and they find the Daily Wire and these garbage outlets and not accurate information. And so we're. When you subscribe to Pod Save the world on YouTube, when you subscribe to Pod Save America on YouTube, YouTube, you help us surface good information in that algorithm and help people who are just trying to understand what's going on in the world get factual information from a progressive perspective. So thank you for that. Benny Johnson, though, man, 2.2 million. Like, what are people doing with their time?
- [06:46]
Ben Rhodes
Benny Johnson and Ben Shapiro are Not the Bens you're looking for, guys. Smash that subscribe button.
- [06:51]
Tommy Vitor
Smash that subscribe button. Not my preferred Bens. Okay, Ben Rhodes. So we got Donald Trump coming off the worst two weeks of his presidency since January 6th. I would argue all of it stemming from this bizarre attempt to silence any discussion of the Epstein files. For those who don't know Jeffrey Epstein, he's this disgraced financier and pedophile who mysteriously died in prison in 2019. Trump promised to release all the investigative files in the US Government's hands about Epstein. People in his administration spent years promising that Trump would release the Epstein files and take down this cabal of corruption and child abusers that run the world. And now Trump, Trump is saying, shut up. Stop talking about it. And it sure seems like he's covering up for himself and all these elites he promised to prosecute. So that brings us to the White House last week, where they went into their standard mode, which is just attack, attack, attack. So the White House did what they always do, which is going offense and just attack, attack, attack. They released this report on Friday that we'll get into in a second. And then here's a clip from Donald Trump earlier today, Tuesday.
- [07:57]
Ben Rhodes
Whether it's right or wrong, it's time to go after people. Obama's been caught directly. So people say, oh, you know, a group. It's not a group, it's Obama. His orders are on the paper. It wasn't lots of people all over the place. It was them, too. But the leader of the gang was President Obama. Barack Hussein Obama. Have you heard of him? This was treason. This was every word you can think of. They tried to steal the election. They tried to obfuscate the election. They did things that nobody's ever even imagined, even in other countries.
- [08:32]
Tommy Vitor
Okay, so what Trump is talking about, there is a quote, unquote report released last week by Tulsi Gabbard, the Director of National Intelligence, that said the Obama administration, quote, manufactured and politicized intelligence to lay the groundwork for what was essentially a years long couple, end quote, against Trump. Specifically, she's alleging that, like, the U.S. intelligence community did not find that Russia used cyber attacks on election infrastructure to alter the 2016 election outcome. And that, I guess, was treasonous somehow. But, like, what is so hard to even explain about all this, Ben, is like, the administration never said Russia changed vote totals. In fact, the administration said the opposite. Like, what happened in 2016 was Russia hacked staffers at the DNC, they hacked the Clinton campaign, they dumped out their emails Then they waged a social media campaign to influence voter opinions ahead of the the election. This was all confirmed by a three year investigation by the Senate Intelligence Committee, which for a period was led by now Secretary of State Marco Rubio. That report also said that the GRU, the Russian military intelligence, probed election infrastructure in all 50 states. So Trump also seems to think that there was this meeting on December 9, 2016. There's a white House meeting of the national security team. He wants this to be some sort of like, smoking gun piece of evidence. We'll come back to that again, Ben said, like this, this new conspiracy, it's like, it's so nonsensical that it's kind of hard to refute it or even track it. But, like, accusing a president of treason is a big deal in my opinion, since this administration is filled with, like, aggrieved fascists who will do anything Trump says. So we're going to take it seriously. Trump went after you personally? Went after a bunch of our former staffers. Ben, you attended this December 9th meeting that Trump is so mad about. You wrote about it in your book. What happened at that meeting? And like, what's your reaction to all this bullshit?
- [10:20]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, I mean, I guess first, just like, you know, I do want to say we talked a little bit about the opening. I appreciate this audience in this podcast so much because it's the place where we can talk about things without all the bullshit that, you know, is in the political conversation elsewhere. So I want to level with people. It kind of sucks, you know, to be the target of this kind of stuff. And it's a weird experience too, right, Tommy? Because Trump posts 20 things and you don't know how serious he is about it. This is probably somebody else's AI generated image. But what's scary about it is the coordination of the Tulsi Potemkin review and her report and then Trump coming on top of that and then him amplifying it in the Oval Office, which makes you feel like this is something they're gonna stick, where there was a CIA.
- [11:15]
Tommy Vitor
Review, where they kind of started this process to go after John Brennan and others too. Right. So this is like a coordinated intelligence community process leading to a White House allegation.
- [11:25]
Ben Rhodes
Yes. And what people like, this is not a close call. There's absolutely nothing to this whatsoever because we all lived it. You were all there, you all experienced it. Trump wants you to forget what you saw with your own eyes, what you heard with your own ears. The Obama intelligence community put out a statement in October, before the election, saying that Russia was interfering through particularly the hack and release operations on WikiLeaks of people like John Podesta's emails. Obviously there was a lot of Russian disinformation. And now what Tulsi hangs this new information on is that after. And this is in the report that she put out. And they keep pointing to this as some new discovered meeting that took place in early December where Obama got his intelligence community and national security team together and ordered this review. This is not new, Tommy. I went back and pulled up my book, the World As It Is. And literally in the chapter where I write about this, it begins with, shortly after the election, Obama convened a National Security Council meeting on Russia. He opened by saying that he wanted the intelligence community to do a comprehensive review of Russia's meddling in the election that could be presented to him and to Congress before he left office. Quote, we need to learn the lessons about what they did because they're going to do it again. He said, does that sound like I was trying to hide the existence of this meeting? This review was the most discussed thing that was happening in Washington in December of 2016. And they're trying to act like nobody knew it happened. This review was submitted to Congress and there was a unclassified version of it that could be discussed. So they're creating a conspiracy theory around something that we all experienced at the time. We talked openly about the time at the time, as you pointed out, Tommy, we said again and again, in part because we were worried that people would have a lack of confidence in the election result, that there was no indication that Russia had changed vote totals. We said that publicly. So the two things that she's saying are like these smoking guns are this new meeting she discovered that we all talked about at the time and this finding by the intelligence community that Russia didn't change the vote tab tabulation, when we said that that was in our press guidance. That's what spokespeople said all the time on the record. So there's just nothing at all to this. And that's part of what to end where I started. Part of what makes us so kind of demoralizing is the complete absence of any there there to this, you know, and that's unfortunately the America we're going to be living in for the next three and a half years.
- [14:07]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it just, it sucks to know we live in a world where like you can throw any chum in the water, no matter how ridiculous it is, and people will just sort of like chase what Trump says, yeah, Ben, you and I are. You and I have an interesting week of getting yelled at by kind of angry demagogues online. But that's a conversation for later. But, like, yeah, but part of this is Trump, he wants to prosecute another president. Right. Because he's mad it happened to him. Part of it is an effort to change the subject from Jeffrey Epstein. And then part of this is Trump never getting over feeling like his 2016 election is viewed as illegitimate because of this Russian interference. And, like, by the way, I'm not a person who ascribes to the belief that the Russians are the reason he won. I think it was, like, one small factor and a lot of factors that included, you know, Democrats running a very bad campaign. So I'm never suggesting that, but the idea that they're like, Russian interference is not a disputed point. Like, again, I made this point on Positive America. Yevgeny Prigozhin, the now deceased Russian oligarch who ran the Wagner Group, confirmed the Russian interference on the record. His quote was, gentlemen, we have interfered. We are interfering. We will interfere. He was indicted by the Trump administration in 2018 for the Russian interference. The. The Trump's Treasury Department OFAC sanctioned Prigozhin in 2018 because of Russian interference. It's like they all agree this happened. Like, you know, it's like people maybe think we're like, overstating the Epstein thing. Like, the House Republicans just shut down all business in the House of Representatives for, like, I think, five or six weeks and sent lawmakers home early because they're so scared of having a vote on a bipartisan bill to release the Epstein files. Like, I think that shows you the links to which Trump will go in this moment to make the conversation about anything else.
- [15:55]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
Yeah.
- [15:56]
Ben Rhodes
And here's what people have to understand is that they. They on some level know there's nothing there. Right. Tulsi Gabbard herself said on Joe Rogan In 2018, I think that there was Russian interference. Marco Rubio, as you pointed out, led the Senate Intelligence Committee review that went beyond what was in the Obama administration intelligence review in detailing Russian interference. But they don't necessarily. All they need, and this is to the Epstein distraction point, and also just how they kind of keep their base fed and the care and feeding that they do. They just need a story that's out there. They just need a sense that there's investigations happening, the deep state is being taken down, there's a drama, there's things that people can talk about on Fox News or Things that can people can talk about on podcasts. I'm going to just one other thing that's out there about me that's totally a classic example of this is like I had all this right wing incoming because I said after I left the administration that I didn't know about the FBI investigation into Trump during the Obama administration. And they're conflating that with the intelligence review. They're saying, but you were in the meeting. Well, of course I was in the meeting. But an FBI investigation is a separate thing from an intelligence review and they don't brief. Now, this sounds like a. I'm, you know, obviously picking on a small point, but the point is they'll take something like that where most people don't understand the difference between an FBI investigation and an intelligence review, and they'll spin their people up about it for like weeks. You know, so people like me get death threats and online hate and they get to go on all their different right wing shows and YouTube shows. Right. And yell about this. But that's what this is about. It's about distracting you from Epstein and doing care and feeding for the base and yes, like settling all of Trump's scores. And if you look at kind of what he's focused on since he came back, it's a window into his psyche and his version of authoritarianism. The first law firm he went after was Perkins Coie, which is a law firm that had been a part of some of the cases against Trump. Right now we're doing the Russia thing. I'm sure there'll be January 6th committee. You know, vendetta's, you know, he's just going to go after everybody.
- [17:58]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it's endless. And it's also worth noting, Ben, this kind of like boundless insecurity about the 2016 election victory is now rippling into our foreign policy because last week Marco Rubio informed State Department diplomats that the US Would no longer assess or comment on the fairness of other countries elections unless, quote, there is a clear and compelling US Foreign policy interest to do. So. Rubio's memo instructed staff to, quote, avoid opining on the fairness or integrity of an electoral process, its legitimacy, or the democratic values of the country in question. Which, you know, I do feel like a big piece of that is Trump's insecurity. And also now it's just kind of easier for him to dictate to the State Department when and where they criticize his autocrat buddies when they, quote, unquote, win elections. Right. I mean, it's just, it's pathetic.
- [18:43]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. And it shows just a gap between the two parties. And actually, I think the Democrat, you know, Democrats then ever backwards to not, you know, they don't even like, necessarily like, Joe Biden didn't meet opposition leaders from Senate parties as any kind of norm when he was president. Meanwhile, Trump is changing all of US Foreign policy to pursue this Trump doctrine, where essentially we will interfere in the politics of foreign countries to help Trump's autocratic buddies, and we won't comment when there are irregularities or fraud or just outright election theft if it's done by people Trump likes or if he just doesn't care. And that is going to create a world. I mean, the example I'd give is like Kenya in the next Kenyan election. Normally there'd be international observers and people if the US Kind of withdraws entirely from that space. I'm not saying we're perfect. I'm not saying we should be the referee for everywhere in the world. But it is a scary thought if essentially the message to anybody who can control the voting in countries is, you know, what, you know, we're out of the business of even identifying fraud. So it's going to have repercussions. It'll ripple out.
- [19:57]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it is, it is a terrible, terrible choice path to go down. Change the gears a little bit, Ben. We did want to update listeners on this massive fight that Trump seems to have picked with Brazil for seemingly no reason. So, last week we Talked about the 50% tariffs Trump is threatening to impose on Brazil because he is mad that the current government is prosecuting former President Jair Bolsonaro for plotting to violently overthrow the government, including, you know, killing off Lula da Silva, the president, killing the, the head of the Supreme Court in Brazil. I mean, it's, it's a wild scheme. But this vendetta from Trump has gotten even dumber because on Friday, Brazilian authorities raided Bolsonaro's home. They seized his cell phone, they ordered him to wear an ankle monitor. They're also making him follow a night curfew, have no contact with foreign diplomats. He's also barred from using social media, doing media interviews, speaking with other subjects of this investigation, including his youngest son, Eduardo, who's currently living in the US after taking a leave of absence from serving in the Brazilian legislature. But in response to the raid, a Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, revoked the visas for eight of the 11 Supreme Court justices in Brazil, including Alexander de Mirage, who is leading the investigation against Bolsonaro. The US Trade representative launched an investigation into Brazil's government backed and beloved instant payment system Pix, which is used by over 70% of the country because it doesn't charge fees. So, Ben, it's just this thing's escalating very quickly. It is probably a mistake to ascribe a strategy to a lot of Trump's flailing bullshit, but if there is one here like it is, it is backfired spectacularly. Brazilian President Lula da Silva. You got to bounce in the polls. There are these huge anti Trump protests happening. There's even conservative newspapers, like putting up big editorials attacking Bolsonaro for putting his own needs priority over the country's needs. And like, I just, I guess I thought Trump might have learned from his intervention in Canadian politics and how he like single handedly resurrected the Liberal Party there. But I don't know, what do you make of, like, what's the end game here? What is he doing?
- [22:02]
Ben Rhodes
I think that Trump doesn't care about the outcomes of these strategies. Right. You know, like, this is evidently a terrible idea. Brazil is a really big and important country. They have other options. They can draw closer to China, they can move away from the United States. They can try to take markets in the United States, as we've talked about. And most countries, if you start to meddle in their politics and do it in ways that might harm them, like their payment system or like some tariff that's going to make their life worse, they're not going to be like, oh, this is going to make me support Bolsonaro because Trump is making my life worse to help out his corrupt buddy. It's going to cause a rally around the flag as it would anywhere, as it did in Canada. And what it tells me is that even this kind of Trump doctrine of interfering is not strategic. It's just all impulsive. It's like, I don't like this. I have power to do something to hurt these people who are messing with my buddy Bolsonaro. And there's never any forethought to what the end game is. It's like, frankly, the trade wars themselves. Nobody knows what the objective of what Trump is doing is. The objective just seems to be to control the dial, to up the pressure, to vent when he doesn't like something. And if Americans don't think that's going to have huge medium and long term costs for us, I don't know what world you're living in. You can't continue to bully countries and not have them band together at some point to stand up to the bully.
- [23:33]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And apparently I Mean, the Bloomberg News reported that Eduardo Bolsonaro and this other conservative digital influencer who is the grandson of the last president of the military dictatorship that ruled Brazil from 64 to 85, they have spent the last few days in Washington. They've been in meetings at the State Department, they've been in meetings at the White House. And it sounds like Eduardo Bolsonaro is, is driving this policy. And you know, like, note to Jair Bolsonaro, note to Donald Trump, note to Joe Biden, like, maybe don't let your kids drive political strategy because again, this is like, this has been a political godsend for Lula da Silva who is using it to rally support for himself. It's also driving Brazil into China's arms. I mean, there's just a big report in the New York Times about Chinese car makers who are just like salivating over the opportunity to sell EVs into Brazil. And it's just, it's just an absolute mess. Like, this is a huge strategic partner, biggest country in Latin America, and Trump is just letting this idiot fail. Son Bolsonaro clown, like drive our policy into a ditch. And no one really seems to get.
- [24:38]
Ben Rhodes
Why, quite literally the Don junior Of Brazil. We could probably do a whole special episode, Tommy, on like these sons or son in laws, because there's Don Jr. This Bolsonaro one. Netanyahu's got a total nutcase son. Erdogan's got a son in law, Jared Bonds got son in law. We can bring Jared into the conversation. He can enter the chat. So let's just bookmark that. There's. Well, Hunter Biden has entered the chat. But the reality by force. Yes, by force. But I mean the reality here is that like this, this global movement, one of the things that's interesting about it is this kind of global right wing autocratic movement. Yes, it's networked. Yes, there's elements of it. They're very smart. But it's also incredibly personality driven. Right? I mean, the Bolsonaro kid can come to Washington and get like a tariff or something. And guys like Marco Rubio are the real embarrassment because this is a guy who built his whole political identity on human rights in Latin America and now he's basically attacking a democracy on behalf of an autocrat.
- [25:48]
Tommy Vitor
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- [27:32]
Ben Rhodes
Okay, so what are you waiting for?
- [27:35]
Tommy Vitor
I'm not waiting. The new Queso Crunch Burger only at Carl's Jr available for a limited time at participating restaurants. Tax not included. Two important updates from El Salvador. Ben. So first, a few months back, we had a guy on the show named Noah Bullock. Noah was my next door neighbor when I was four years old, literally. Then his family moved. His dad was the Episcopal priest at our church. But you know, far more importantly, Noah ran Christosol, which is this leading human rights organization in El Salvador doing heroic work. Unfortunately, Noah and his team were recently forced to flee the country and go into exile to places like Guatemala and Honduras. This came not long after Bukele's thugs arrested a woman named Ruth Lopez, who is the leader of Christo Salt's anti corruption program. We reached out to Noah just To sort of see how he was doing, see how his group is doing. Here's a clip. We had to decide between exile and prison. And we decided that, you know, relocation is the way that we can continue in our mission, but also to defend our colleagues who are now political prisoners, you know, and exile is a form of political violence that you have to choose between your freedom and your conscience and flee the country. It affects the people who are being persecuted, but sends a message to the whole society. Some of us, our names are on lists and we're being directly threatened, while others made decisions of conscience and conviction that they wanted to continue in the organization. In order to do that, that meant that they had to leave the country. You know, when you have to pack your bag and leave, it doesn't just affect you. Like, affects your whole family. And you start wondering, like, did you make decisions selfishly? And, you know, even, like, we have a colleague whose father's been in prison for over a year without trial. And, like, some of the family blames her. The truth of it is, though, is when a government decides that they can violate their rights, rights of one group of people, they've already decided that they can violate the rights of everybody. So, also, Ben, we learned last week that the Trump administration has brokered a deal between Venezuela and El Salvador that saw 10American citizens in permanent residence, including a Navy SEAL. And this guy was a kite surfer who had been held in Venezuela as political prisoners exchanged for the 252 Venezuelans who the United States sent to El Salvador to Nai Bukele's Sukkot mega prison in El Salvador back in March. Venezuela's attorney general said on Monday that they would open an investigation into Bukele and the Salvadoran government for the alleged mistreatment of these men while it's Sukkot. And so we're slowly going to learn more and more, I think, about the horrors that were inflicted on these men because the fucking United States sent them down there. So, Ben, you know, look, I'm obviously very happy that these Americans were freed. I'm elated that, you know, these Venezuelans are out of this nightmare prison torture chamber. But, you know, it doesn't mean they're safe now that they're in Venezuela. I think we just have to remember that most of these people sought asylum in the US because they were fleeing persecution in Venezuela. And, you know, I just wanted to leave, like listeners and you with a thought which is, like, Venezuela, El Salvador, these are terrible governments, horrible leaders, gross human rights violators, not people That I think like we want to be in bed with. But just step back and think for a second how differently the US Treats these two countries. Like we're sanctioning the life out of Venezuela for decades while propping up Bukele in El Salvador. This fascist bitcoin loving autocrat who like openly trolls our system, our values, and is like, takes joy in it, seemingly, like none of this makes sense.
- [31:27]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, and I should say, like the Trump people are, you know, look, it's good that Americans are out of prison in Venezuela, but if like the price of that shouldn't be that a bunch of Venezuelans who came to the United States legally, Right. There's temporary protected status, had to be tortured or detained in some horrific conditions and then sent back to Venezuela, like that's not a win. That's like Trump doing something awful and you know, doing some transaction at the end of the awful thing that he did. So let's not like kind of cast this as some stroke of genius further empowers Bukele too, as this kind of intermediary between us and Latin America. So we are now engaging with Latin America through this complete autocrat who just throws people in prison, disappears them. Some of those people don't even know why they're there. Their families don't know why they're there. They don't know when they're going to get out. That's who we're dealing with. And look, America has a higher bar in Latin America. Given our history, this is going to hit all of the worst buttons of American double standards and hypocrisy and imperialism in our hemisphere. Because this is what we used to do when we had coups down there or we supported autocrats or death squads down there. And so it just completely puts the lie to this rhetoric that is only used against Venezuela and Cuba, the leftist governments that are autocratic down there. And they're not at all used when it comes to Bukele, who's embraced. And then it's made even worse when like the normal democracies like Brazil that are just trying to protect themselves against autocracy or just trying to enforce their laws, then they're messed with because Trump would rather they be right wing autocracy. So the message to the world is A, we're full of shit and B, insofar as we have a preference, the preference is for a right wing autocrat, not a democratic government.
- [33:18]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Speaking of the U.S. sending a message to the world that we're full of shit, let's turn to Gaza, because life in Gaza continues to be hell on earth for the Palestinians who are living there. So, Ben, the UN estimates that since May, over 1,000 Palestinians have been killed while trying to get food. The majority of those deaths happen near aid hubs set up by this weird kind of Israeli American organization, the Gaza Humanitarian foundation, or ghf, which was set up to replace unwra, to replace the un, but has very sketchy origins and is doing a horrendous job of food distribution. As we're recording on Tuesday, Gaza's Health Ministry reported that just in the last 24 hours, at least 72 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces. Gaza's Health Ministry also says that 101 people, including 80 children, have died of starvation in recent days. Fifteen of those deaths, including four children, happened in the last 24 hours. The UN World Food Program reports that almost 100,000 women and children in the enclave are suffering from, quote, severe acute malnutrition. On Monday, the IDF moved into Deir Albala, a town in central Gaza that has somehow avoided Israeli ground operations over the last, what, 20 months, 21 months or so since the war started. But now residents have been ordered to evacuate. The UN's office for the Coordination of Humanitarian affairs said, quote, the area of Gaza under displacement orders or within Israeli militarized zones has risen to 87.8%, leaving 2.1 million civilians squeezed into a fragmented 12% of the strip where essential services have collapsed. In the face of all this, Ben, 28 countries got together to release a joint statement condemning the humanitarian situation in Gaza and calling for a, quote, immediate unconditional and permanent ceasefire. Among the signatories was the uk. We wanted to play a clip from British Foreign Secretary David Lammy on the BBC talking about the statement and the situation generally. I feel the same as the British public, appalled, sickened. I described what I saw yesterday in Parliament as grotesque. These are not words that are usually used by a Foreign Secretary who's attempting to be diplomatic. But when you see innocent children holding out their hand for food and you see them shot and killed in the way that we have seen in the last few days, of course Britain must call it out. Of course Britain must lead others in the statement, as I did yesterday, to call it out.
- [35:42]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
Of course we must get on the.
- [35:44]
Tommy Vitor
Phone and we must urge Israel to think again, as I did again yesterday. And we will continue to pressure, we will continue to act, we will continue to urge this Israeli government to listen to 83% of its public who are urging them now to move to a ceasefire so those hostages can come out. So, Ben, I mean, you kind of live online like I do and read about this all the time, and it's just like day after day after day, you're just bombarded with images of people who are massacred in food lines. A kindergarten class in Gaza was bombed by the IDF the other day. There are images of starving children, children who have starved to death. Their bodies, you know, are posted on social media. I mean, I reached out to Faro Sidwa, who you talked to on the show. This is like the ER doctor who had, you know, volunteered his time in Gaza just to check in and say, hey. And he was like telling me about it. Some of his colleagues there are passing out while performing surgeries because they're starving. The afp, the media organization, put out a statement where they're concerned about their journalists starving to death. I mean, the situation, it's like so dire and has been for so long that it's, it just, it's so demoralizing, you feel like nothing would change. And so it's, it's, you know, it's nice to hear a statement like that from Davey David, like, just to hear the outrage in his voice. I guess the question I have for the uk, for the US Government's a lost cause for a couple years, but the UK and others is like, at what point do we think that tone translates into more actions? Like, more cutting off of Wetman shipments, more cutting off of intelligence support or diplomatic support, or even maybe veering it to sanctions or other pressure? Because, you know, I think we, a while back we covered the UK putting some restrictions on certain, like, kind of dual use exports to Israel. But, you know, Oxfam says the UK provides 15% of components used in the F35 fighter jet that the Israelis use to bomb places in Gaza, for example, or components for drones. So there's a lot more actions they could take if they wanted to.
- [37:48]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I think this statement reflects the fact that the rest of the world, probably more so than in the United States, is seeing what is happening in Gaza and the depth to which this is sunk. And, you know, to put this in context, we've heard a lot of times over the last few months, like on the precipice of famine, like, this is now the appearance of a famine. Like, people are starving to death right now. The most vulnerable people are going to be children or the elderly. But it's affecting everybody. And I think we should also be clear it's not like, because of nature, you know, and it's not because of Hamas. This is Israeli government policy, is creating this famine. There was a quote that stuck out to me. It was by a guy named Alex de Wall, who runs the World Peace foundation at Tufts. But he also wrote a book called Mass the History and Future of Famine. So he knows about this. And he said, I've been working on this field of famine, food crisis and humanitarian action for more than 40 years. And there is no case over those four decades of such minutely engineered, closely monitored, precisely designed mass starvation of a population as has happened in Gaza today. They've blocked off any food getting in. Ask yourself why baby formula has to be blocked off. What is Hamas going to do with the baby formula? They have, you know, tried to essentially cripple the ability of unrwa, the main aid organization to operate. They've set up this Potemkin fake aid organization with a bunch of military contractors that when people go to it, they shoot them. So I just don't know what other information people need to get about this.
- [39:18]
Tommy Vitor
Systematic attack on health infrastructure.
- [39:20]
Ben Rhodes
Yes. So while people are starving, they're also destroying the health infrastructure. So there's nowhere for anybody to go. You're right, the statement is good. But if I'm the UK like there are steps you can take. Stop providing any military assistance to Israel. If I'm the eu, there are steps you can take. Like you could terminate the EU Israel trade agreement that is being pursued. You could sanction officials that you know are participating in this policy. So I think you could see more out of Europe and other places. The reason they're probably not doing it, it is because they're afraid of Trump. I mean, like I have to say, like the UK probably is worried that if they go there then Trump will punish them. So the US I don't expect the US to do the right thing, but it's even worse than that because I do kind of. I mean they may be doing it for their own reasons too, but it certainly doesn't help. Let's just say when the US is, is not a part of statements like that.
- [40:13]
Tommy Vitor
Let's say if you're the EU and you sanction someone like Israel Katz, the Israeli Defense Minister who's openly floating this ethic cleansing campaign for Gaza. Right. I mean, I think you're right. There probably would be some sort of retaliation from Donald Trump. I mean he's sanctioning the life out of Brazil or threatening to over far less so it's incredibly frustrating, Ben. But you know, like to Counter these statements and these horrors that we're seeing on social media every day. Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu is, like, spinning out there full time and even started kind of an unusual PR campaign. Recently sat down with the Nelk Boys for their podcast, full send. So for those not familiar, the Nelk Boys are these. This group of, like, Canadian American YouTubers that kind of combine, like, pranks, frat culture, and humor in celebrity interviews into a very stupid but very popular product.
- [41:06]
Ben Rhodes
Tommy, can I just ask you something? Am I, like, super middle aged? Because I didn't know who these guys were? Like, should I know who the Nelk brothers are? Did you know they were.
- [41:14]
Tommy Vitor
I only knew who they were. So it's the Nelk Boys. It's an acronym. I only knew who they were because of, like, the Trump context. I watched their interview with Netanyahu and I, like, I did. I'm not trying to be mean, but, like, I was genuinely shocked by how stupid and kind of uncharismatic they were. Like, often look, often you watch a YouTuber like, you know, the Paul brothers or something, and you kind of, like, see the charisma. You understand why people. People watch them. Even someone like a Tucker Carlson, right? Like, I disagree with him on everything, but he's an incredibly compelling broadcaster for some reason. You can kind of get why he built an audience. These dudes kind of floored, but. So we watch this Dan Yahoo interview. It's the first one. And again, like, in fairness to them, right? Like, they were out of their depth. They're interviewing a prime minister. They don't know anything about the issues. They know it's going to be controversial, Right? So I'm sure they were, like, approaching it with some trepidation. This wasn't like, like, farting on your buddy and running away. And they did at the Blair house. So I assume this was kind of set up with them by the Trump administration. But, Ben, we wanted to do a little super cut for the audience because no one should have to suffer through this whole thing of some of their most incisive questioning of Netanyahu. This is a little bit longer than usual, but we thought it was important for you to hear. Edward R. Murrows over here. Here we go.
- [42:28]
Ben Rhodes
This is so crazy. We are so not qualified to do this. That's what's interesting about this. We're just not. We just should not be doing this. We're journalists, right? We're tech.
- [42:39]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [42:39]
Ben Rhodes
I mean, we're technically journalists. How can you pass up this opportunity? At the end of the day. I think there's never been a friend.
- [42:44]
Tommy Vitor
Like Donald Trump in the, in the White House for Israel. He said he'll make America great again.
- [42:50]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
He's already done it.
- [42:52]
Ben Rhodes
You know, America is widely admired now around the world. You guys are very tight, right? Would you call it a bromance?
- [42:59]
Tommy Vitor
Well, you might. And where there's no daylight between an.
- [43:02]
Ben Rhodes
American President and Israeli Prime Minister, amazing things can happen. Did you have any type of relationship with Biden?
- [43:09]
Tommy Vitor
Not the same.
- [43:10]
Ben Rhodes
I don't agree with everything he did. But Obama's still cool. Look, first of all, Obama was like, he has aura. You know what that means?
- [43:16]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I do. Tel Aviv is one of the, you.
- [43:19]
Ben Rhodes
Know, the most open, liberal minded city on earth. Israel is revisited there. Yeah, it's completely different. Our assistant gay too. He had a good time. Well, I'd say there's a lot of American support from the females from the gaze towards Palestine. So how does that make any sense.
- [43:33]
Tommy Vitor
Based up, you know, gaze for Gaza.
- [43:37]
Ben Rhodes
Is like chickens for kfc.
- [43:41]
Tommy Vitor
Iran tried to assassinate President Trump not once but twice.
- [43:45]
Ben Rhodes
They were behind those assassination attempts. What's your go to at McDonald's?
- [43:49]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
No, I'll tell you.
- [43:49]
Tommy Vitor
Burger King. We did the, you know, the double.
- [43:51]
Ben Rhodes
You know, I haven't ripped Burger King.
- [43:54]
Tommy Vitor
In a long time.
- [43:54]
Ben Rhodes
Burger King kind of sucks. Yeah, My dream guess is Kim Jong Un. Kim Jong Un. If you're watching this, this is kind of like to come to North Korea and interview.
- [44:02]
Tommy Vitor
All I can think about is the interview.
- [44:04]
Ben Rhodes
I'm so down to pull up to Moscow and interview Putin too. Yeah, we'll do everybody.
- [44:09]
Tommy Vitor
Okay, so it's worth noting that I think this interview went over very badly with their audience. They were getting shit on in their own chat. Hassan Piker like pulled up into their stream was kind of like, guys, what are you doing? They're right about Burger King. McDonald's is way better. Insane to go to Burger King. Netanyahu keeps trying to say, sort of saying that the Iranians were behind both assassinations of Donald Trump. So he's saying that crooks, the kid who shot like, you know, intel kind of gamer dude in Pennsylvania that shot Trump in the ear was Iranian back. There's no evidence of that. No other law enforcement has suggested that. But he says it over and over again. He said it on Fox News at Brett Bear. He says to Nelk, boys, you can tell they think that's what he's implying there. Even if what he would, what he would, you know, if you pressed him, he'd be like, oh, no, no. I'm just saying there was plots, right. That's been widely discussed, but I don't know. I don't know if that was a successful PR effort for Netanyahu. What was your. What was your take?
- [45:07]
Ben Rhodes
I mean, my mint. I actually watched this too, because it was like I couldn't look away. And my main take is that if you want, like, a manifestation of the combination of stupid, tragic, and dangerous that the world has become in 2025, the Nelk Boys talking to Bibi Netanyahu about his Trump bromance in Blair House would be, you know, a pretty good candidate for the time capsule. I mean, it does. What's interesting to me about Tommy is why did this happen? So it's pretty clear that Israel and Netanyahu and some of their friends in the United States are aware of that. They have a massive fucking problem with young people in the. Around the world, everywhere. Right? And that shows up in the polling in the US it shows up in the polling even worse in other parts of the world. And so they somehow think that the kind of same playbook that worked for Trump a little bit with young people, let's put them on some podcasts, is going to somehow work the magic for Netanyahu. Bibi Netanyahu. And I just don't really think that, you know, he. He presents as a guy that you want to spend time with, which, as you taught me a long time ago, is what a podcast is all about. I also just want to say I love that the. Like, you could sense with the Obama question that he literally cannot say a single nice thing about Obama. So he just kind of just acted like it didn't happen, you know?
- [46:31]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it was the beginning. Was like all this, like, love fest about how great Trump is. And then the answer with Biden was just, like, so tepid. And it was just. Anyway, you can tell Bibi just loves to stomp Democrats.
- [46:44]
Ben Rhodes
There was no daylight between Biden and Bibi policy. I mean, there was on some rhetoric, and guess what the reward is for Biden. He's got, like, you know, Bibi dunking on him to the Nelk boys about how Trump is better. Right? It's a message to Democrats. Like, I mean, he's not your friend. You have to say this every week. But, like, why are you getting in bed with this guy? He doesn't like you. He's not your friend, and he's a bad guy.
- [47:07]
Tommy Vitor
He's gonna hate you. This guy I follow on Twitter. And no, in real life, Jordan Yule Tweeted, he, quote, tweeted a clip from this, said, we asked a guy doing a genocide why, like, people say he's starving people. And, like, low key. He said, it's cap the interview. Well, okay, Ben. So again, for those who missed it, we did this YouTube exclusive on Friday that came out over the weekend, breaking down a lot of stories, including the Israeli strikes on Syria and what's going on in Syria, all this sort of of sectarian conflict there. So if you want to dig deeper, check that out. But the sort of short version is that there is sectarian violence in southern Syria that is getting worse and worse and worse. It's between the Jerus community, which also has a significant population in Israel, and these Bedouin tribes. Syria's president, Ahmed Al Shara, sent Syrian troops down to the south to try to quell the violence, but the. The soldiers he sent seem to have done the exact opposite. They conducted executions of some Druze, including civilians, including one American. There was burning and looting of homes. Like, it was pretty, pretty horrific. And then the Israelis, who have launched airstrikes on Damascus and on military convoys heading south, ostensibly to protect the Druze, but also because they didn't like the idea of more Syrian troops near their border that is seemingly like poured gas on a really scary situation. And so this whole situation, including the Israeli intervention, seems to have caught the Trump administration by surprise, or at least off guard, is what Carolyn Levitt, the press secretary, says. Now, Brock Ravid over at Axios had a story where, you know, he talked to some administration officials on background about the Israeli interventions in Syria, and they seemed quite mad. They're saying things like, quote, bibi acted like a madman. He bombs everything all the time. And the feeling is that every day there is something new. What the fuck? There was an interview with the Associated Press. This guy, Tom Barrack, who's Trump's ambassador to Turkey and special envoy to Syria and longtime supporter, said that Israel's attacks, quote, create another very confusing chapter and came at a very bad time. He also, you know, Barrack also reaffirmed the administration's support for this new Syrian government. So for now, a ceasefire agreed to over the weekend seems to be holding, but this story seems like it's far from over. Ben, I just thought it was interesting on this issue. Trump is clearly annoyed at Netanyahu and more willing to be critical of him, though, per usual, they're not actually doing anything to rein anyone involved in. But it was just. It's always interesting, kind of like when they decide to slap Bibi around?
- [49:42]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. I mean, two things. I mean, we talked about this a bit, but the one thing I'd add is that, like, there's always going to be, you know, in this transition period, there's always going to be a danger that you'd have some kind of sectarian violence inside of Syria. The challenge for the Syrian government and for all the communities there is to channel conflict into politics. You know, like, not everybody has to agree. Like, people are going to be arguing over resources. People are going to be arguing over rights and autonomy and things like that. But you want that to be done on a peaceful political basis. And that is why, like, bombing Syria is what. Which is what Israel is doing is not constructive because introduces violence as. As a legitimate means of trying to resolve these differences. So that's yet another reason, you know, this needs to be put into a process. What I think is going on here. Syria is very important to the other Arab states, including the Gulf Arab states, who Trump cares a lot about. Barak, the guy who's the envoy, Tom Barrack, he's super tight with the Gulf Arabs, particularly the Emiratis, and that's probably why he's in that role. They're already in trouble with some of their own publics for not doing more in Gaza to try to help the Palestinians. Some of them are in trouble with their publics for the Abraham Accords, which is perceived, rightly, as having sold out the Palestinians. If this spreads to Syria, well, not only are they going to be dealing with the risk of Syria descending back into a civil war, which they don't want, but it makes them look even further feckless. So I think what has Trump's backup here is that his Gulf air buddies remember he Trump announced the lifting of sanctions on Syria as a gift to Mohammed bin Salman when he was in Saudi Arabia. And we said that was the right thing to do. It is the right thing to do. But, like, what's the point of lifting sanctions if the place is getting bombed? You know, people are going to invest in a country that's getting bombed. So I think that's, you know, part of why you see this, this useful activism from the Trump administration on this one.
- [51:40]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I hope they are pressing hard privately and getting Netanyahu to actually take some actions here, because this is crazy to just bomb your neighbors constantly. All right, we're going to take a quick break, but, Ben, as you well know, baseball season is in full swing and we got some new pod save the world merch. That's sort of a ripoff of a certain baseball team's logo. What do you think, big guy?
- [52:00]
Ben Rhodes
Oh, wow. I like it. That looks good. Yeah, look at that.
- [52:04]
Tommy Vitor
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Narima Waka Ojiwa
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Tommy Vitor
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Narima Waka Ojiwa
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Tommy Vitor
Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by On Deck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amount subject to lender approval. All right, a couple more stories before you get to Ben's interview. So. So we wanted to walk you guys through this shocking story out of the UK about how one very unfortunate error by a defense official in the United Kingdom put thousands of people in Afghanistan at risk and could end up costing the British government billions of pounds. So I'll try to summarize this as quickly as possible. It's very. It's a lot of twists and turns here. So, as listeners know, the UK Fought side by side with us in Afghanistan, took a lot of casualties, and they worked with a lot of Afghans on the ground, especially in, like, Helmand Province, people who served as interpreters, drivers, and more. And then after the Taliban takeover, they had a process in place to try to get as many of the people that worked with their troops, their spies, their diplomats out of the country and away from Taliban retribution or possible Taliban retribution. Now, in the winter of 2022, a defense official in the UK working on that resettlement program sent an email that he thought included, like, information about 150 applicants to this kind of, like, asylum or refugee process, but inadvertently included the information of almost 19,000 people who had applied for resettlement in the UK as well as information, Afghans, that is 19,000 Afghans, as well as information about, like, 100 spies, special forces troops, and military officers, presumably, you know, testimonials from people who worked with some of these Afghan nationals. Now, I don't understand, Ben, how this could exist on, like, an unclassified system, but that's what happened. So. So apparently the British government didn't figure this out right away. It took them about a year and a half till they realized what happened when someone in Afghanistan posted names, 10 names from that database on Facebook and then threatened to leak the rest. That's when the British kind of woke up to this, and they realized they'd essentially handed the Taliban, like, a massive enemies list that they could go through for retribution if they wanted to. And then I think some press found out about it. And so the government, seeing this crisis that they had to solve, went to the court to get an injunction to stop any reporting on this issue. The judge complied and even upgraded their order to what's called a super injunction, which prevented the press from reporting on the existence of the gag order at all. Put them in a very difficult situation. The UK Government and set up this, like, secret program called the Afghan relocation route, or ARR, that has brought over about 4,500 Afghans there's 900 applicants, 3,600 family members, and then another 2400 on the way. And resettling just that fraction of the total list already has cost over a billion dollars. So it's a very expensive process. And then after the election last summer, Keir Starmer, who didn't even know about this challenge because of this super injunction, his labor government takes over. They inherit this mess. Labor commissions a new study by the Ministry of Defense. That study kind of looks deeper into, you know, what has happened since the Taliban takeover and this leak. And they conclude it's highly unlikely that someone affected by the leak would be targeted by the Taliban. And their report went so far as to call this sort of Afghan relocation route scheme disproportionate. I think they realized, you know, there's lots of other ways for the Taliban to figure out who had worked with the British government. Stuff like bank records, yada yada. So this conclusion that the risk was lower than what they thought led to the lifting of the super injunction last week, revealing the news of the breach in the ARR to the public. It meant it could be briefed to Parliament, talked about in Parliament. And then obviously all these Afghans knew that their identities had been leaked. It created this terrible situation, Ben, where like, you know, the super injunction had shut down, like debate or any sense of accountability or any kind of democratic process around a very important issue. And, you know, it was just sort of a mess and like untenable. So folks in Afghanistan are terrified. The British government has apologized, but obviously not solved the problem yet. The whole thing got politicized because it's swept into the sort of UK's anti immigrant debates. Nigel Farage and his right wing, the anti immigrant Reform UK Party is sort of demagoguing the issue, claiming that the British government has admitted sex offenders, which is disgraceful and, and just a lie as far as we can tell. So this is a huge mess. It's a political challenge for labor created under the Tories, but now it's, you know, labor is to deal with. So, Ben, like, obviously, I think in, like, sort of, I've been learning about this in real time too. Obviously it was right for the government to scramble when they learned about this data breach to create a plan to resettle all of these people in case there was horrible reprisal violence. But in reality, it does seem like the risk has been far lower. Obviously you have to kind of listen to the concerns of the public in terms of where they are on the issue of resettlement, like what do you. What do you make of this? What do you think the right course of action is now?
- [59:11]
Ben Rhodes
I mean, the original sin is the UK and the US and other countries not having a more coherent plan to do mass resettlements. Settlement.
- [59:21]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [59:22]
Ben Rhodes
You had this kind of hurried evacuation. A bunch of people got resettled, and a whole bunch of other people just got stuck in limbo. Some in, like, third countries, some, you know, they were in Pakistan, they were getting deported back into Afghanistan, etc.
- [59:34]
Tommy Vitor
So that's in part because the Trump administration crippled the SIV process in the US in the State Department to try to. Because Stephen Miller didn't want any of these people, even the heroic Afghans who helped our troops, et cetera, he didn't want them coming here. So they, like, killed it with Brad. Bureaucracy.
- [59:48]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. And, and, and then, you know, then there's a sin of sending this email which. My God, I mean, I can't imagine what it's like to realize you sent that. Look, I, I usually support transparency. I, I understood the impulse to try to quash this thing and resettle as many people as you could while trying to minimize risk. I don't think that's like a permanent solution, though. That's like a band aid you put on a problem. And that ultimately, even with that kind of gag order, like the, The Taliban, you know, we. We sometimes make the mistake of thinking that they're a bunch of unsophisticated rubes, you know?
- [60:24]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Right.
- [60:25]
Ben Rhodes
Well, if they. They're such unsophisticated rubes, why are they running Afghanistan? Like, they have ways, I'm sure, of, like, learning this information. They're friends with the Russians, whomever, you know, so you have to assume after a given. And I, I bet the British, I don't know what their intelligence community found. They may have found that the Taliban already knows this, so we might as well lift this injunction. I don't know if that's true, but that's possible. So I don't know. I think that now the point is that, like, there still has to be a methodical plan to resettle as many of these people as possible. The US, unfortunately, is probably starting to, like, deport some of these people. You have some very, like, inspiring stories of, like, veterans organizing to, like, accompany Afghans in this country who are going to ICE interviews. I think that's great. It shouldn't just be on veterans, though. I think that's the kind of thing other Americans who've cared about this should do. But to me, it's just yet another indicator of how, how poor the kind of planning and execution was on Afghan evacuation and resettlement.
- [61:25]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah. It also sort of explains, you know, remember the, the Labor Party top officials kept talking about like billion dollar holes in the budget that they weren't aware of that, you know, hadn't. And like, clearly they were talking about this the whole time and they just had to talk around it because of this super injunction.
- [61:40]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, yeah.
- [61:41]
Tommy Vitor
Which is like a thing that doesn't exist in our system. Like, I couldn't imagine.
- [61:45]
Ben Rhodes
Every now and then you learn something about the British system and how powerful, like the government can be. Like, they don't draw a lot of distinction to, between domestic spying and, and this Palestine Action Group being banned as a terrorist organization. Like, there's. Yeah, there's a, there's a reason we had a revolution in this country.
- [62:03]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, Rein it in over there, guys. All right, let's turn to Japan then. On Sunday, Japan's Liberal Democratic Party, which has been in charge for 65 the last 70 years, suffered another electoral defeat. This time it was in the upper house of Parliament, the ldp. They lost their majority in the lower house last October. So this is like defeat after defeat. That means Prime Minister Ashiba is the leader of an even smaller minority government. Though maybe he won't be leader for long as some members of his party are calling on him to resign. So Sheba is. He says he wants to remain prime minister because he wants to continue tariff negotiations with the Trump administration. Remember, the Trump said he's going to, he might slap a 25% tariff on Japan starting on August 1st. So this deadline is looming. Voters in this election were furious about the cost of food, especially rice. They were mad about tariffs, they're mad about taxes and the growing cost of caring for Japan's aging population, especially as the birth rate is falling. But as we've seen in so many parts the of. Of the world, Ben, the big trend out of this election wasn't like, you know, a swing from one party to another. It was the rise of new political parties, especially anti establishment nationalist parties. In particular the Democratic Party for the People, which is a new party, which more than doubled Newish party, which more than doubled their seats in the upper house. And then there's the more extreme Sensato party, which won 13 seats on Sunday before it just had two in the upper house. So San Sato gained a following online for anti vaccine and anti masking content, which feels very familiar. And the party's leaders drew inspiration from Trump's quote unquote bold political style. They also talk about Japanese first agenda. And they warned, some of the leaders have warned against a, quote, silent invasion of foreigners to the country. There's about 4 million foreign residents in Japan in 2024, which is record. But, but it's still only 3% of the country's overall population. So, Ben, it's just amazing how consistent a lot of these stories are. You know, I mean, people are just mad as hell. Inflation's a problem, it's anti establishment, they're looking to new new parties and mostly to nationalism. And then also it's just, I'm just struck by how often you hear about a country with a declining birth rate. It could be Japan, it could be immigrants.
- [64:16]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah.
- [64:16]
Tommy Vitor
Yes. Staring down the barrel of like a demographic disaster, while simultaneously you see the rise of these anti immigrant political parties. It tells you something kind of like very racist and dark about where these feelings are coming from.
- [64:30]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, I mean, I think the lead takeaway. Right. Is inflation. Cost of living continues to be the driving force against incumbents around the world. Canada and Australia kind of bucked it in part because of the Trump effect there. But like this clearly mattered here. The fact that we're exporting stupid, you know, with like Japan first and, you know, this Trump stuff is kind of depressing. You know, I will say that these people are gonna have trouble actually governing and you know, they're still not actually in control of the government. But the one of the few times in those 70 years where you had non LDP government was, you'll remember, Tommy, in the first Obama term.
- [65:08]
Tommy Vitor
Yep.
- [65:09]
Ben Rhodes
When I think it was the Democratic Party and we had I think four different prime ministers in like four years. And part of the reason why is the Japanese system is so kind of wired to be governed by the ldp that these people, if non LDP people get in, they have a hard time kind of pulling levers and making things work. So it would take much longer than one election for Japan to kind of move away from this LTP dominance of politics. But this definitely bears watching because particularly if the US starts to kind of withdraw from its alliance with Japan, you know, Japan's going to start to look for other political approaches. And it bears noting we've said this about Germany. Never good. When the far right gets traction in Japan, that is generally not ended well in the past. So here's hoping that this is only a temporary swing in this direction.
- [65:55]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Three more quick things, Ben. So last week we talked in great detail about like Trump flip flopping on sending weapons to Ukraine. According to the Wall Street Journal, Germany is going to send a thing, five Patriot missile batteries, the missile defense systems to Ukraine. The US will then backfill those. We kind of made the deal all work because I think the US moved Germany up in terms of its list of prioritization to sell these systems. So that, that's a little bit of good news for folks in Ukraine. As you know, they're contin going under like sustained assault from Russian troops. And then, Ben, a couple of quicker things. So last week, France's Prime Minister Francois Beirut proposed several ways for the country to save about 44 billion euros. So France is currently facing this huge budget deficit. It violates the EU's budget rules, so they have to make some changes. Unfortunately, one of Beirut's proposed solutions was accessing to French holidays. It's Easter Monday and VE Day from the calendar. Both those dates fall in May, which just sounds incredible. It just means your spring starts off with like long weekend after a long weekend.
- [67:00]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah.
- [67:00]
Tommy Vitor
So Ben, I can totally understand where the government is coming from on this one and like the tough financial situation they're in and like the EU rules and how that could, it's, it's, it's a real problem and they don't just get to print money like we do over here. But I also could really respect the French people for fighting tooth and nail on this stuff. Right. Because like once you agree to fewer days off or you get rid of like the 35 hour workweek or you agree to a later retirement age, it's never coming back. You know what I mean? Fight while you can.
- [67:30]
Ben Rhodes
It's a reminder that Macron is, you know, a pretty big figure globally. But I think his approval rating too is like bottoming out below like 20. It's like the lowest it's ever been. So people do not like these reforms and this always happens and there's usually street protests, you know, maybe something will burn. Leave V Day alone. I want to just one thing about Ukraine is that another weird thing that's happening in this new, you know, shift in winds is some warring signs inside of their country.
- [68:00]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, today we should dig into that.
- [68:02]
Ben Rhodes
We'll do it next week. But they're basically. Zelensky dismantled the anti corruption unit in Ukraine and I worry that this might be kind of a Trump effect. Right. Like everybody's got to be strongman now. Right. And, and so that bears watching too.
- [68:15]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Unsettling stuff. Finally, Ben, just an update on North Korea so listeners might remember about how a Few weeks back, we talked about this new resort town in North Korea that was opening up, the one we couldn't wait to go to, maybe do a live show, maybe send a friend. It was called the Wan Kalma Coastal Tour Zone. It was designed to attract both domestic and foreign tourism, though, you know, probably only, like, Chinese and Russian tourists to this waterfront packed with, like, hotels and this water park and this weird video of, like, Kim Jong Un watching people go down a water slide. Apparently, some Russian travelers visited last week, but the BBC reports that the area is now off limits to foreign tourists. We don't know why. We certainly regret mailing cash to Pyongyang as our down payment for our rooms. You're not going to do that twice. In the second story that caught our eye out of North Korea, Ben was the world's most reliable newspaper. The U.S. sun reports, quote, frigerating Kim Jong Un sparing no expense to get hands on Ozempic. This is a report about how Kim Jong Un is struggling with his weight. And South Korean spies have allegedly clocked attempts by their regime to bulk buy the GLP1 drugs like ozempic or Mounjaro for the prolific binge eater, drinker and smoker. And, like, I have to say, good for him, right? Like, the guy looks like a walking advertisement for gout. But the article quotes a North Korean observer who speculates that Kim Jong Un is likely to test the waters first by administering the drugs to, like, test subjects to gauge its side effects. Which seems a little unnecessary because he could just do, like, that Instagram before and after thing for basically anyone in Hollywood. But I guess what I would say is, good luck with your procurement, sir. Good luck with your health journey. We wish you the best.
- [70:02]
Ben Rhodes
He did, I noticed in the videos, because I love this, you know, resort propaganda they put out. And when he's there, like, watching, like, the kid go down, the guy go down the water slide and stuff, he always has, like, a pack of smokes right next to him, you know, which is like, I kind of, you know, he's the one world leader, is just like, burning a heater, you know, loves ripping sticks, watching, like, people perform stunts for him or something. It also. I read more about this. It was pointed out by one of these travel blogs that people don't want to go to North Korea to go to, like, a resort. Like, they actually. What you want to go. You want to go to, like, Pyongyang.
- [70:39]
Tommy Vitor
And see, like, how it's like, the Potemkin weirdness. Yeah.
- [70:42]
Ben Rhodes
If you want to Go to a place with like water slides and a beach. Like there's plenty of options without having to go to North Korea.
- [70:46]
Tommy Vitor
And the Nelk boys are going to go to this resort.
- [70:49]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah.
- [70:49]
Tommy Vitor
I just realized they're going to do.
- [70:51]
Ben Rhodes
A live podcast now. That's the content we need. I need, I need that the Nug.
- [70:55]
Tommy Vitor
Boys send those puds down this water slide. You got to look at the. The best part of the Nel boys interview is one of them, like he had something weird going on with his collar. Like he had a really big tie maybe under the collar. And it was just so far.
- [71:08]
Ben Rhodes
Did they wear ties all the time or was that like them dressing up for a prank?
- [71:11]
Tommy Vitor
One of them did. The other looked like like, like a 12 year old boy who's like, dad dressed him up for church in like adult sized.
- [71:16]
Ben Rhodes
Because one of the things I've learned on this podcast is better to just dress how you normally dress, like yourself.
- [71:20]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I've been underdressing my whole life. Okay, we went a little long today because we like talking to you guys. Thank you for listening. We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, you will hear Ben's interview about the latest protests and political developments in Kenya. So stick around for that.
- [71:42]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
Pod.
- [71:43]
Tommy Vitor
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- [73:49]
Ben Rhodes
Okay, I'm very pleased to welcome Narima Waka Ojiwa to the podcast. She's a Kenyan political analyst and the executive director of Siasa Place, which helps young people engage in politics. Narima, thanks so much for joining us.
- [74:01]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
Thanks for having me.
- [74:03]
Ben Rhodes
Okay, so we wanted to have this conversation to really catch all of our listeners and viewers up to speed on what has been a very challenging time in Kenya. This is the second summer in a row that we've seen mass protests. Last year. These were sparked by proposed tax increases by President Ruto, which would have raised taxes on things like basic food and necessities for ordinary people. In those protests, at least 63 people were killed. Seventy protesters were abducted by plainclothes police officers. We should say that at least 26 are still missing. These were dubbed the Gen Z protest and ultimately succeeded in getting Ruto to withdraw the bill. That was last year. Narima, can you, can you tell us what the protests are about this year and how they compare to what happened last year?
- [74:57]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
This year, a lot of us were very observant in terms of what's the finance bill going to contain. We noticed that Parliament was super silent. We didn't know much about what was within the bill, and they tried their best not to anger the public. So this year was a little bit different because there was going to be a memorialization in terms of the young people who were lost last year in the protest on June 25, because the cases are still ongoing. Rex Masai was the first to be shot on June 20, and his case is still currently ongoing. One year on, and we still don't know the police officer who shot him. And no one is being held accountable. So a few things happened this year. We had Alfredo Juang, who is a teacher, and he put up a post on his social media about corruption happening in the police force. And he was picked up from his home in Homa Bay, which is the western part of the country, transported by Road about 300km to the CBD, which is Nairobi, our capital. And he was put at central police station and basically beaten to death. And we still don't have answers as to who is responsible for beating this young man, this young father, to death. So the protests this year, the trigger was actually Alfred, because people went to the streets demanding answers. Yet again, it's people demanding accountability, talking about corruption, and we're not seeing the government doing anything about it. And we also witnessed during that protest, in terms of Alfred, there was a young man, a vendor, he was selling masks on the street and he didn't run anywhere and he was shot in the head by a police officer on live tv and he died about two weeks later. Again, police brutality. So it brought about this tension amongst young people and we saw the numbers, you know, grow it. There were so many people who tried to come to the protest, but the police had cordoned off the cbd. And not only was it happening in Nairobi, so last year it happened in about four, four different cities, four different counties. This year it happened in 25, 25. And so it shows you how the movement is growing and how the public uproar continues to grow.
- [77:29]
Ben Rhodes
So it sounds like, you know, if last year the trigger was the finance bill, the tax increases, this year it's more about the kind of totality of state repression, corruption. What is your sense of how much of this violence is a strategy of the government versus a strategy of police? You know, we've seen Rudo call for protesters to be shot in the legs. We've seen the interior minister talk about the protests being, quote, terrorism disguised as dissent. Is there a sense that this is kind of state sponsored violence to suppress protest, or is this police brutality on its own? What is the impression there?
- [78:17]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
So on June 18, that's the time people went to the streets for Alfred and I was there and I noticed something different. They were goons, and these are basically hired thieves and gangs that are used to intimidate, threaten, especially peaceful protesters. And they came into town on motorcycles and some of them carrying really big sticks, batons, and they were beating people. And the police just stood there and watched. So this is also something that we have never seen before because I remember the front covers of our national papers just basically saying, how are goons being protected by the police now? Something that's very important to remember is Saba Sabah. So July 7 is also a very important day for us here in Kenya. So that's the day in, you know, in the 90s where we had activists go to the streets basically pushing for multipartism because we were under a dictator, our president, Daniel Arab Moi. And it was in that period after that massive protest where 20 people were killed that he decided to repeal sex to a in our constitution, which allowed for people to register different parties because then he was the only one who had a party in our country. So this was a day that was also symbolic. So even though there was violence, you know, June 18th, there was violence June 25th, people still wanted to come to the streets July 7th. And to commemorate July 7th and basically say, we have lost our rights, our democratic rights as young people to freedom, to freedom of expression. And what was met on that day, and still counting, 40 people were killed, they were shot by the police. So it's double the number that we witnessed in the 90s. And I'll say that we've also seen cabinet secretaries, Interior Minister Murkomen speaking and saying, telling the police, shoot, you know, kill. We will protect you. Nothing will happen to you. And when you have cases of 12 year olds, Bridget Njoki, she was killed at home watching television. Because in the 90s, they would stand on the rooftops and just basically spray bullets to scare the public to go back into their houses so they wouldn't protest. And these bullets, stray bullets, are the ones that are killing people. We have so many cases of stray bullets killing kids and we've seen so many funerals of children because of stray bullets and we are not seeing any accountability. So remember when I talked about karaoke, the mask vendor being shot at the back of the head. This police officer actually uploaded a TikTok dancing and the Kenyan people are like, how come he's not being arrested? What's going on? It's actually young Kenyans on social media that found his identity in 15 minutes using AI, using different angles that people had from their cell phones and forcing institutions to take accountability and arrest him. This guy was roaming free that day while karaoke was fighting for his life in a main hospital here in the city. So the tactics that the state is using at the moment is they're arresting young people very randomly. And, and I'm part of a campaign where we are actually crowdsourcing for bail money. And, and the kind of bail money we're talking about is $3,000, you know, for someone to be able to have access to bail. And we're talking about the average family living on a dollar a day. How is someone going to be able to afford a bail of $3,000? And some of the charges that they are putting on these young kids, because some of them are 17. We had the youngest being 14 in state prison. So some of the youngest are being charged with terrorism. Now this is a particular law that came into effect in 2012 because a situation that we had with Somalia and they were dealing with Al Shabaab. And so it was not necessarily a law that was supposed to be utilized on the Kenyan people. There are only 11 people who have been charged under the terrorism act. And bills are so high because the charge is so high. And we're finding that a lot of the young people in the cells, and I'm Talking about over 100, we're finding the number of people who are in cells, they were not even part of protests. Some of them, some of them were picked up because they looked like their potential protester. We had three sisters picked up because they were walking home together, going for dinner. And so it's just cases of, you know, falsely accused people being accused with terrorism. And even today we had seven young men accused of arson during the protests. And then when they were released on bail, which we supported to pay, they were re arrested and they were taken to Kahawa west, which is the main court that deals with terrorism. So now we have a new case of seven people being charged with terrorism.
- [83:51]
Ben Rhodes
So in terms of the opposition to this, Kenya, for all of its challenges, has always, in my experience, had a pretty dynamic civil society and a healthy independent press and journalism. Who is organizing protests? Is there a sense of leadership or is this kind of more an organic movement of different people and organizations that are just responding to what's happening? How is the opposition organizing itself in, in this period?
- [84:25]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
I would say it's still organic. And we have, it's mainly millennials and Gen Zs in their communities and they are organizing based on issues. So every time you see a protest, it's you know, someone who's related to corruption, someone who put up a case against saying that the state is misusing resources or abductions. And I would say that it's organizing underground because we're seeing what they do as soon as you pop up, they charge you with terrorism, they abduct you, they threaten you. And so it is a mechanism that a lot of young people have to use to continue to remain almost invisible, just so that they continue to remain safe. And the state continues to appear confused because now when they go and start picking groups of people, they are really trying to find out who's going to help them, who's going to pick them out, who are people we can track, who are people we can monitor. But it's really just Kenyan people who are supporting one another.
- [85:36]
Ben Rhodes
And when you look at the politics, Ruto has two more years until there's supposed to be an election in 2027. In the past, throughout my time when I was in government and even after you had President Kenyatta, but then you had Raila Odinga as the late opposition figure who's now, I don't know, he's in his 80s. So when you look to politics and you look to the next election or you look to elected representatives, is there a sense that there is a political party or some potential political leadership that could change things? Or is this just a case of people trying to put pressure on the government to deal with these immediate cases? What is your hope, if there is one, for the future of Kenyan politics?
- [86:25]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
So very interesting things are happening in Kenya, Ben, because you know our politics and how Raila Odinga, he has shook hands with every existing president.
- [86:37]
Ben Rhodes
Yes, yeah.
- [86:38]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
And every.
- [86:39]
Ben Rhodes
I was a part of some of those handshakes. Yeah, yeah.
- [86:42]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
And every time he does it seemed to mellow down temperatures, but this time it didn't. So he seemed to sign an agreement with Ruto. They seemed to form an alliance, broad based, but still one year on. The protests are actually larger, they are growing. And so he's caught between a rock and a hard place where the bullet he always uses is not seeming to work. So what we're seeing over the weekend, he had, you know, a presser where he basically talked about a conclave and he's calling it an intergenerational conclave. And he's finding it very hard to sell to the public. People are just not buying it. You're seeing people struggling to understand what this means. They're like, this doesn't make sense to form another commission. And right now, we've seen different clusters of groupings coming out and saying, we support the conclave. But I have to tell you that it's a very small group of people. He doesn't have as much as a buy in as he had 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. And this is also something that he's grappling with. And also we've seen United Opposition announce themselves. And these are the usuals from, you know, Matiangi is being fronted. Kalonzo, we've seen also Mathakarua is part of that group. Gashagwa, the former deputy president, is part of that group. But these are all people who worked with mu. So again, we're seeing young people being like, no, you're not going to try and rebrand and sell us the same ideologies and expect us to fall for it. And so what I'm excited about is we're seeing people like former CJ Maraga coming out and saying he's going for president. And he also launched his own website and his own crowdsourcing campaign, which is different. You know, we use a lot of money in our campaigns. I think for a presidential campaign, it costs, costs about 4 billion shillings. We have some of the most expensive campaigns in the world. And so, you know, a lot of people were discouraging him and saying, you don't have enough money to go for a presidential campaign. And he said, no, mine will be funded by the people. And they've been campaigns happening all week supporting Maraga's campaign. People are paying as little as a dollar a day just to make sure that they're channeling some resources toward his campaign. And there's also Okiem Tata, who's the senator for Busia. So we're seeing, you know, this group with Okea and CJ Maraga, who is completely different politics and Okiya mainly talks about our debt and the audacious debt that we have as a country and how we need a public audit and change needs to be done. And CJ Maraga talks about rule of law, how institutions need to be independent and we need to be able to follow the Constitution. And so this is what we're seeing is forming. And I think it's still early. I think it's still early. I think we're going to see fresh faces entering politics. Siasa, my organization means politics. I have, you know, hundreds of young people who tell me almost every day that they want to enter politics. Political parties have been formed. I've already received news of 4 in the last two days that have just been registered and recall. So this is also the period where you can recall a member of Parliament who's not performing well. And you know, our Electorals and Boundaries Commission has already received six recall petitions. And online I'm seeing members of Parliament people are collecting signatures. So we're probably going to see even up to the 50s number of recalls. People are, are fed up with their representatives and they are showing it now. They feel like 2027 is just too far away. And they're like, if we can get rid of them now and go for a by election, I would rather use my energy and try than waiting for 2027 for them to finish their term.
- [91:07]
Ben Rhodes
So it sounds like it's a mixture of some opposition politicians trying to, to try different approaches in fundraising, different platforms, and then also trying to bring young people into politics to bring generational change. Tell us a little bit about. So you mentioned a little bit about what you're doing, but what is your work like day to day in terms of trying to get young people engaged? And what are those young people that you're working with? What is motivating them to get into politics? Is it these protests or is it it corruption or is it cost of living? What are the issues that young people care about?
- [91:46]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
It's definitely the cost of living. The unemployment rate is so high. Kenya, I believe, is at 60%. And even when you talk about the average population, the average age is 19 years old. And so a lot of people are looking for opportunities which they can find. And we constantly see our government saying that, you know, look abroad. You know, we've signed agreements with Germany, you know, with the US and Saudi Arabia. Go and find a job outside Kenya, stop looking inside. But a lot of young people are saying, no, I want to be home, like create the opportunities at home. And they are, these are very educated people. But we're also seeing a struggle with a university funding model where right now a lot of young people can't access university learning just because of how expensive it is. So within that dynamic, we work in about 17 counties, which is like our states here. And in those 17 counties, we mainly work on education, educating young people about the constitution, how they can be involved through public participation, understanding, counting, budget process, and also knowing the roles of the different levels of government. So we work a lot with county based youth organizations. We work also with technical vocational universities and we also work with youth groups. And so it's people from these groups who are like, I don't think my representative is doing a good enough job so we have accountability campaigns where they basically look at budgets and what was built after, from something like a stadium to a cow shed to a market. And just saying this doesn't look like all the amount of resource was spent to build this. So you're seeing a very active generation that's using social media to do this accountability and having very close relationships with people who are in government. And I'm hopeful because even for them to say we are watching, there's going to be such a high turnover because even the Star, which is one of the papers here over the weekend, said there's only a 10% chance of elected members of MPs returning. 10% chance. So they can already see how the ground is being very observant. And also people they're questioning, if you're going to vote for someone who bribes you to vote for them now, look at what they've done. So you better vote for someone who you know has lived with you, who understands your issues. So that mindset has already begun to change. And, and this is a big deal because even over the weekend in Busia, which is a county all the way in the west, near Uganda, there's someone who was giving a contribution at a funeral and she said she had come with a contribution from Raila and she was booed. She was told to be quiet and an actual member was told not to speak. If they're coming to talk about Raila.
- [95:12]
Ben Rhodes
So Raila Odinga. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [95:15]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
Raila Odinga. So you can see how the public perception of politics is changing and people who were very influential are really struggling to have that public buy in. And you're seeing these young faces coming to the fore. Very brave, very brave. And the community is like, you know what, let's give these guys a chance. Like, these guys have been with us for 20 years. We've not seen a difference. Let's give new faces a chance.
- [95:46]
Ben Rhodes
Well, look, that, that's an optimistic note to, to end on in terms of a generational change. Kenya is not the only place that needs that, but it needs it badly. If people who are listening wanted to support either your organization, CIASA or some of these crowdsourced efforts, are there websites, are there places they can go?
- [96:06]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
Yes. So siasaplace.com is our website and we are CIA place everywhere. I would say definitely support the build. There's also a PayPal account which, if you follow me, at Neriba W we're constantly retweeting these posters and we're still collecting resource because as much as we've had 74 young people released. I'm still counting hundreds still in the cells. And we don't want these people to be stuck there just because they can't afford to get out. Because we know these are cases that will continue to drag and the state is just trying to frustrate them to remain in. So share. They posted, you know, communicate with people who are in Kenya and contribute to the cause. There's also contributions for Kenyans, for Kenyans, those who are injured in the protests. We are constantly collecting money because of the hospital bills. That's also another place people can support and share.
- [97:10]
Ben Rhodes
Great. Well, we will, we'll put some of that information in our, in our show notes so people can find that. But Narima, thanks so much for, for, for joining us and for, for all the work you're doing.
- [97:19]
Narima Waka Ojiwa
Thank you.
- [97:24]
Tommy Vitor
Thanks again to Rima Wako Ojiwa for joining the show and thanks to you Ben for podding late and everyone for listening. Talk soon. POD Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkowski. Our associate producer is Michael Goldsmith. Saul Rubin is helping out this summer. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitorino and Ben Rhodes. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our audio engineer. Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Thanks to our digital team, Ben Hethcote, Mia Kelman, William Jones, David Toles and Ryan Young. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Adrian Hill is our Senior Vice President of News and politics. If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community@crooked crooked.com Friends don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter for more original content. Host takeovers and other community events. Plus find Pod Save the World on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content and much more. If you're as opinionated as we are, please consider dropping us a review. Our production staff is proudly unionized by the Writers Guild of America East. Carl's Jr's got a new Frozen Strawberry Lemonade and Frozen Blue Sour Berry. Top choice Sweet or sour? Sweet or sour? Sweet or sour? The new Frozen Strawberry Lemonade and Frozen Blue Sour Berry. Two frozen flavors. One tough choice. My Rewards members can get a free frozen drink with any purchase in the Carl's Jr app for a limited time of participating. Restaurants, app Registration and minimum $1 purchase required this season. Let your shoes do the talking. Designer Shoe Warehouse is packed with fresh styles that speak to your whole vibe without saying a word. From cool sneakers that look good with everything. The easy sandals you'll want to wear on repeat. DSW has you covered. Find a shoe for every heel from the brands you love, like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas, New Balance and more. Head to your DSW store or visit dsw.com today.