Pod Save the World
Episode: Trump & Saudi Arabia: A Tale of Corruption
Date: November 19, 2025
Hosts: Tommy Vietor & Ben Rhodes
Guest Interview: Atul Gawande (former USAID, public intellectual & physician)
Episode Overview
This episode centers on Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s (MBS) high-profile visit to Washington, D.C., exploring the multiple layers of U.S.-Saudi relations: security, corruption, and normalization with Israel. Tommy and Ben discuss Trump’s overt business dealings with Saudi Arabia, the broader implications for U.S. foreign policy, and a raft of international stories including Swiss bribery, the degradation of U.S. institutions, the ongoing global impact of USAID’s dismantlement, and new angles in the Jeffrey Epstein saga.
A featured segment is Ben's interview with Atul Gawande about the collapse of USAID under Trump and its devastating humanitarian effects, which is also explored in Gawande’s New Yorker documentary “Ravena’s Choice.”
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Setting the Scene: Venezuela and Trump’s Militarism
- The hosts briefly reference U.S. military tension in Venezuela, speculation on possible strikes, and Trump’s cavalier approach to using force in Latin America and the Caribbean.
- Quote:
“Trump, our ‘peace president,’ also said he was open to launching military strikes on Mexico.”
(Tommy Vietor, 03:02)
2. Mohammed bin Salman’s Washington Visit: Red Carpet for Corruption
[Starts ~07:59]
Background:
- MBS’s first visit since 2018; this time, the city prepares for another spectacle with Trump eager to please.
- Last time, MBS enjoyed fawning coverage as a reformer—until the Khashoggi murder changed everything.
MBS’s Wish List:
- NATO-like U.S. security guarantee (likely via executive order since Congress would balk).
- U.S. tech and support for a Saudi civilian nuclear program.
- Advanced semiconductor chips to rival UAE’s AI advances.
- Direct personal appeal to Trump for intervention in the Sudan war—complicated by Saudi and UAE backing rival militia groups there.
Analysis:
- The U.S. has little to gain from granting these wishes, especially nuclear cooperation.
- The real driver is Saudi economic and political leverage, not genuine U.S. interests.
- Trump and his team are openly in talks about multi-billion real estate and business ventures—clear conflicts of interest dominate.
Quote:
“Let’s pretend this visit is on the level for a minute. How is it in the US Interest, do you think, to give the Saudis a security guarantee or anything on their wish list besides ending the war in Sudan?”
(Tommy Vietor, 11:34)
Ben’s Response:
“We don’t need to give them a defense pact. It’s not in our interest to like have to go to war to defend Saudi Arabia at some point in the future. … None of them, particularly the large investments in the Trump business interests, have anything to do with what is on the mind of most Americans.”
(Ben Rhodes, 13:58)
On U.S. Cynicism:
“I think it makes total sense to give a civilian nuclear energy program to the country with the second largest proven crude oil reserves in the world.”
(Tommy Vietor, 13:58)
3. Khashoggi, 9/11, and Trump's Business Ties: A Shocking Oval Office Exchange
[14:07–16:40]
- ABC’s Mary Bruce pointedly asks Trump and MBS about the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, 9/11 families’ anger, and Trump family business deals.
- Trump’s response: Dismisses Khashoggi as “controversial,” claims no involvement in the family business, attacks the media.
- MBS attempts to deflect 9/11 questions, framing it as a plot to divide U.S.-Saudi ties.
Quote:
“There’s no reason that these governments would be pouring money into the Trump properties because of the business acumen of Eric Trump. They’re doing it purely because of the access it gets them to Donald Trump… and they have decent reason to believe that.”
(Ben Rhodes, 16:40)
- Discussion highlights the merging of corruption and autocracy: “People like to talk about how Trump wants to be like Putin… He wants to be like MBS—sitting on top of a trillion dollars… silencing journalists who he finds to be a pain in the ass.”
(Ben Rhodes, 18:48)
4. First-Person Perspective: Jamal Khashoggi’s Fiancee
[21:26]
- Inserted clip:
“It’s… digging more in my pain in my wound… but there is a focus for his [MBS’s] visit… and Jamal being forgotten.”
(Khashoggi’s fiancé via Crooked Media’s Matt Berg, 21:26)
5. Trump–Saudi Business Web: Real Estate, Crypto, and Shamelessness
[22:03–25:14]
- The Trump Organization, through entities like Dar Global, is licensing its name to an array of projects across the Gulf.
- Reuters & Financial Times report on projects in Saudi Arabia (Daria giga-project, Trump Tower Jeddah/Riyadh, golf events) and even the Maldives, now with a blockchain twist.
- Senators Warren & Jack Reed call for investigations, citing $11.6 billion of Trump’s wealth apparently tied to crypto dealings, some with ties to international hackers.
- The hosts lay out how Trump’s inner circle are cashing in on policy decisions—“minimal investments,” but huge payoffs for access and loyalty.
6. The Medieval Playbook: Swiss Bribery and the Gold Bar
[30:35–33:28]
- Swiss business leaders, stung by Trump’s tariffs, show up with a $130,000 gold bar (engraved with “45” and “47”) and a Rolex desk clock, technically as “donations” to the Trump presidential library.
- The gesture works: tariffs drop.
Quote:
“This is the crassest form of corruption. This is like medieval shit… there’s nothing subtle about a couple gold bars and a gold Rolex clock. …This is not a strategy for anything other than enriching and empowering Trump.”
(Ben Rhodes, 32:24)
7. U.S. Institutional Decay: The Case of Cash Patel’s FBI
[33:33–43:15]
- Cash Patel (FBI Director) is profiled: accused of abusing government planes for personal trips, using FBI SWAT teams for his girlfriend’s security, failing to register for Qatari foreign agent work, and purging professional agents for political reasons.
- The story is painted as “fantasy camp for the worst people in the world.”
- The hosts point out the disrespect to law enforcement, and the way basic norms and professionalism have decayed under Trump appointees.
Quote:
“Do you ever feel, Tommy, like we are now like citizens of universe? That is a fantasy camp for the worst fucking people in the world?”
(Ben Rhodes, 40:04)
8. Epstein’s International Tentacles
[43:46–50:54]
- Focus on Epstein’s claims to be a “Trump expert” for Russian contacts and newly revealed deep ties to Israeli former PM Ehud Barak—including arms deals and intelligence links.
- Documents show former Israeli intelligence officials lived with Epstein; allegations include brokering arms/security deals in Africa.
- The lack of mainstream coverage is noted, possibly due to document provenance but with obvious international security/espionage implications.
9. Bangladesh: Accountability and the Death Penalty for a Former PM
[61:25–64:40]
- Bangladesh’s ex-PM Sheikh Hasina is sentenced to death in absentia for ordering the shooting of student protesters.
- Discussion about accountability vs. vengeance—and how this relates to the broader wave of Gen Z protest movements.
10. Corruption Scandal in Ukraine
[64:40–69:38]
- $100 million siphoned from Ukraine’s nuclear company, involving high-level allies of Zelensky.
- Suggestion that political interference with anti-corruption agencies was timed to cover up these schemes.
- The stakes: Ukraine’s ability to maintain international (esp. Western) support and make real progress as a democracy is at risk.
11. Humanitarian Catastrophe in Sudan
[70:02–72:30]
- Sudan’s civil war intensifies: the city of Al Fasher falls to the RSF (UAE-backed militia).
- Aid workers describe “mega-cities” of refugees facing unprecedented hardship.
- Despite MBS’s call for U.S. help, there’s little action.
12. Hitler’s DNA and Kalman Syndrome: Channel 4’s Bizarre Historical Forensics
[73:53–74:44]
- Channel 4 documentary reveals Hitler likely had an undescended testicle and possibly a micropenis, fueling a British media dunk-fest.
- Used as comic relief and a reminder of the persistent weirdness in European historical obsession.
Featured Interview: Atul Gawande on the Collapse of USAID
[Begins ~77:05]
Ben interviews Dr. Atul Gawande (surgeon, New Yorker writer, and former USAID administrator) about the catastrophic worldwide impact following Trump’s executive order dismantling USAID—including hundreds of thousands of deaths, destruction of complex aid networks, and the shattering of American soft power.
The Human Toll:
- Loss of routine care, medicines, and basic food aid; staff fired overnight; compounded suffering in places like Kenya, South Sudan, and across the Global South.
- “What was a pause turned into a complete shutdown of USAID. …Hundreds of thousands of lives would be on the line just in the first year alone. But there was zero curiosity, zero interest in how to mitigate that suffering.”
(Atul Gawande, 78:45)
Why It Matters:
- Gawande describes institutional knowledge and complex distribution systems as “not something you just turn back on.”
- The pain is hidden: “The deaths don’t occur like they do in a war… you go from 3% to 4% child death rates… but they’re scattered and you don’t see what’s happening.”
- Ravena’s Choice (the documentary) follows a mother forced to make an impossible decision in a broken nutrition system—a microcosm of what’s unfolding worldwide.
Foreign Perceptions:
- Loss of American credibility and soft power:
- “We are not a reliable partner. …Most people are like, we survive. …None of [these reactions] are ones where anybody says, ‘we see America as a force for good in the world.’” (Atul Gawande, 94:02–94:30)
What Next?
- Rebuilding America’s development capacity is a multi-decade project.
- “There are no quick fixes to any of this.”
(Ben Rhodes, 97:59)
Notable Quotes & Moments
On Trump–Saudi Relations:
“He wants to be like MBS. He wants to sit on top of a trillion dollars. He wants to mix politics and business. He wants to be able to silence…journalists.”
(Ben Rhodes, 18:48)
On Saudi “Reform”:
“Now he’s fully back, thanks to business leaders who want Saudi money, President Biden who wanted Saudi oil, and the Trump goons who want corrupt crypto and real estate deals.”
(Tommy Vietor, 09:35)
On Systemic Corruption:
“You can’t even get your mind around the depths of the corruption. …[Crypto] is the easiest place to be corrupt because the money’s dark and it’s hard to have a paper trail.”
(Ben Rhodes, 24:04)
On Cash Patel and Institutional Rot:
“These Cash’s defenders will say, look, by law, he has to fly on an FBI plane because he needs the secure comms. …But the plane is not intended to support the lifestyle of a MAGA influencer.”
(Tommy Vietor & Ben Rhodes, 37:41–38:11)
On the Aftermath of USAID’s Shutdown:
“Instead of raping and pillaging…the societies we just defeated, as so often happens in war, we did the crazy thing of investing in Germany, in Japan… That is what has played out again and again in the USAID story.”
(Atul Gawande, 90:59)
Important Timestamps
- 07:59 — MBS’s Washington visit & wish list
- 14:07 — ABC confronts Trump and MBS in the Oval Office
- 16:40 — Ben unpacks the wider meaning: corruption + autocracy fusion
- 21:26 — Jamal Khashoggi’s fiancée shares her pain
- 30:35 — Swiss gold bar bribe
- 33:33 — Cash Patel/FBI corruption segment begins
- 43:46 — Epstein’s ties to Israeli intelligence
- 61:25 — Bangladesh: protests, crackdown, death penalty for Hasina
- 64:40 — Major Ukrainian corruption scandal
- 70:02 — Sudan’s war and humanitarian crisis
- 77:05 — Ben’s interview with Atul Gawande on the dismantling of USAID
Tone & Takeaways
Tommy and Ben’s sardonic, conversational banter is on full display. The through-line of the episode is how corruption, self-dealing and disregard for norms—reflected in Trump’s dealings with Saudi Arabia, domestic institutional rot, and the abandonment of American global leadership—are fundamentally reshaping America’s role and reputation in the world. The personal story in "Ravena's Choice" and eyewitness accounts from conflict zones put human faces on these geopolitical failures.
Recommended for listeners who want:
- Deep, insider-informed cynicism about U.S. foreign policy in the Trump era
- A blend of humor, outrage, and expert perspective
- A broad survey of headlines with meaningfully explained context
For further reading/viewing:
- New Yorker documentary: “Ravena’s Choice” by Atul Gawande
- New York Times/Financial Times reporting on Trump–Saudi business ties
- Dropsite News’ detailed work on the Epstein document leaks
End of summary.