Trump the “Peacemaker”

Summary

Pod Save the World: Trump the “Peacemaker”

Episode Release Date: January 22, 2025
Host: Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes | Produced by Crooked Media

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Introduction

In this episode of Pod Save the World, hosts Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes delve into the tumultuous first days of Donald Trump's second term, examining his inauguration, a multitude of executive orders, the fragile ceasefire in Gaza, the sudden TikTok ban, and escalating political chaos in South Korea. The episode provides a comprehensive analysis of these events, interwoven with personal insights and expert commentary.

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Trump’s Inauguration and the American Oligarchy

The inauguration of President Trump marks a significant display of power dynamics within the United States. Hosts discuss how Trump surrounded himself with American tech oligarchs, showcasing a blend of political power and corporate influence.

Key Points:

• Shift to Indoor Venue: Due to unusually cold weather, Trump's inauguration was moved indoors, resulting in a shrunken stage on the dais ([06:27]).
• Presence of Tech Leaders: Prominent figures such as Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Sundar Pichai, Jeff Bezos, Sam Altman, and TikTok CEO Xiaochu were seated alongside top national security nominees, highlighting the intertwining of business and politics ([07:06]).
• Display of Wealth and Influence: The inclusion of wealthy donors and tech moguls signals a new American oligarchy, where financial power directly influences political outcomes ([07:49]).

Notable Quote: Ben Rhodes states, “This is a sprawling White House portfolio doing God knows what” ([07:06]).

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Executive Orders and Policy Shifts

President Trump's aggressive signing of approximately 200 executive orders on his first day sets the tone for his administration's priorities. The hosts dissect some of the most impactful orders and their implications.

Key Points:

• Withdrawal from International Agreements: Trump retracted the U.S. from the Paris Climate Accords and the World Health Organization, signaling a shift away from global cooperation ([15:42]).
• Immigration Policies: Multiple immigration-related orders were enacted, immediately affecting asylum seekers and altering border control measures ([22:49]).
• Designation of Drug Cartels as Terrorist Organizations: This bold move raises questions about potential military actions and the future of U.S. involvement in combating drug cartels ([25:16]).

Notable Quotes: Tommy Vietor reflects, “Pulling out of the Paris agreement… diminishes America's capacity to participate” ([25:16]).
Ben Rhodes adds, “These people clearly don't care about anything except themselves” ([11:19]).

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Ceasefire in Gaza: Hope and Uncertainty

The episode explores the recent ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas, discussing its phased implementation, challenges, and the human impact on Gazan civilians.

Key Points:

• Phased Agreement: The ceasefire is structured in three phases, aiming for the gradual release of hostages and reconstruction efforts ([42:13]).
• Humanitarian Efforts: UNRWA's role is critical in providing aid, yet Israel's ban on UNRWA threatens to cripple humanitarian support in Gaza ([87:43]).
• Personal Stories: Families like Maya Roman’s illustrate the deep emotional toll and ongoing uncertainty faced by those affected by the conflict ([42:13]).

Notable Quotes: Maya Roman expresses, “Everyone keeps saying it's like finally being able to take a breath… It really feels like our country is still stuck on October 7th” ([42:13]).

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The TikTok Ban Fiasco

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the abrupt banning and subsequent reinstatement of TikTok in the United States, highlighting the political maneuvering behind the scenes.

Key Points:

• Initial Ban and Reversal: TikTok was briefly blocked in the U.S., only to be restored with Trump’s intervention, crediting him for the reinstatement ([56:50]).
• Political Strategies: Trump's shifting stance on TikTok reflects broader themes of power consolidation and influence over tech platforms ([57:56]).
• National Security Concerns: The discussion touches on data privacy and the potential risks of Chinese-controlled platforms like TikTok ([61:21]).

Notable Quotes: Trump humorously remarks, “Because I got to use it… TikTok is not their biggest problem” ([57:56]).

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Political Turmoil in South Korea

The hosts analyze the ongoing political crisis in South Korea, where President Yoon Suk Yul faces impeachment and criminal charges, drawing parallels to American political instability.

Key Points:

• Impeachment Proceedings: Yoon Suk Yul’s arrest and subsequent violence by supporters highlight deep political divisions ([64:43]).
• Impact on U.S.-South Korea Relations: Potential shifts in South Korea’s foreign policy could alter alliances, especially concerning North Korea and China ([65:05]).
• Future Leadership: The possible election of opposition leader Lee Jae Meng may steer South Korea towards a more pro-China stance, complicating U.S. foreign policy ([65:17]).

Notable Quotes: Ben Rhodes likens the situation to “J6 choir vibes” ([64:46]).

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Cancel Culture and Free Speech

A lighter yet poignant segment examines the complexities of cancel culture through the story of Juan Bernabe, a Spanish falconer fired for posting provocative content on Instagram.

Key Points:

• Case Study: Bernabe was dismissed for sharing photos of his prosthetic penis, despite previously displaying far-right fascist gestures ([67:35]).
• Double Standards: The incident raises questions about the inconsistencies and extremities of cancel culture ([69:35]).
• Free Speech Concerns: The hosts debate whether such actions represent a genuine defense of free speech or an overreach of social accountability ([69:20]).

Notable Quotes: Tommy Vietor remarks, “This poor man just posts his dong on Instagram. He got fired” ([68:44]).

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Interview with Sam Rose: UNRWA’s Role in Gaza

In a critical and heartfelt interview, Ben Rhodes speaks with Sam Rose, the Acting Director of UNRWA Affairs in Gaza, about the on-ground realities and impending challenges due to the ceasefire and potential UNRWA restrictions.

Key Points:

• Current Conditions: Initial relief from the ceasefire is overshadowed by the realization of extensive destruction and the emotional trauma endured by Gazans ([73:24]).
• Aid Distribution: UNRWA is focusing on delivering essential supplies like food, shelter, and medical care, while preparing for long-term reconstruction ([76:13]).
• Threat of UNRWA Ban: Israel’s impending ban on UNRWA operations threatens to halt critical humanitarian efforts, exacerbating the crisis ([87:43]).
• Humanitarian Urgency: Rose emphasizes the need for immediate and sustained international support to prevent further humanitarian disasters ([94:36]).

Notable Quotes: Sam Rose describes the mood in Gaza: “People want to have everything that's normal that all of us expect and they don't want to be treated differently” ([94:36]).
Ben Rhodes adds, “The bottom line is this... it's a situation that absolutely no one wants and no one needs” ([87:43]).

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on the chaotic start of Trump’s term, the fragile peace in Gaza, the complexities of international relations, and the ongoing struggle between free speech and cancel culture. Hosts underscore the critical nature of the upcoming months, urging listeners to stay informed and engaged with global developments.

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Further Information:

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• YouTube Access: Watch full episodes and bonus content on the Pod Save the World YouTube channel.

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Notable Transcript Excerpts with Timestamps:

• On Inauguration Venue Change:
  Tommy Vietor: “Changing locations was probably a good idea, but moving the events indoors meant a shrunken stage on the dais.” ([06:27])

• On Executive Orders Impacting Climate and Health:
  Ben Rhodes: “Pulling out of the Paris Agreement… it just is debilitating to international coordination to fight climate change.” ([25:16])

• On TikTok Ban Reversal:
  Tommy Vietor: “TikTok is banned… but then TikTok decided to restore its own service, they saw a message that said as a result of President Trump's efforts, TikTok is back in the US.” ([56:50])

• On South Korea’s Political Crisis:
  Ben Rhodes: “It’s got kind of J6 choir vibes.” ([64:43])

• On Humanitarian Efforts in Gaza:
  Sam Rose: “People want to have everything that's normal that all of us expect and they don't want to be treated differently.” ([94:36])

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This episode of Pod Save the World provides an in-depth examination of significant geopolitical events shaped by President Trump’s policies, emphasizing the interconnectedness of domestic decisions and international ramifications. Through expert analysis and personal stories, Vietor and Rhodes offer listeners a nuanced understanding of the challenges and complexities facing the global landscape in early 2025.

Transcript

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Pod Save the World. I'm Tommy Vitor.

[Ben Rhodes]

I'm Ben Rhodes.

[Tommy Vitor]

Is bleak, Ben. It's real bleak. Normally I love doing this show because we get to turn off American politics for a while and use different parts of our brain and talk about new things. But it's been very hard to focus on kind of anything but yesterday for me today. I don't know about you.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, no, my. Let's just say my partially dry January did not hold through yesterday. I feel I'm a little worse for wear. Just 20 days.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's not bad.

[Ben Rhodes]

Something about the the imagery of yesterday led me directly to vodka.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. Which felt were you California dry? Which like it's like mushrooms, ketamine, a little weed.

[Ben Rhodes]

I was very California dry. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not dry at all now. Yeah, that was dark yesterday. That was bleak. I have to say it was dark.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Also, it was endless.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, we'll get into it. But the dude did his inaugural. He did, like, seven speeches yesterday. It's like, buddy, you're exhausting us on day one. And I know that's the plan.

[Ben Rhodes]

That's the plan. Yeah, that's the plan.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, as you can tell, today we're going to cover the inauguration. We're going to cover what it means to put on display the new American oligarchy and just show the world all our donors as well as our tech leaders. On the dais, we'll talk about some of the foreign policy elements of Trump's speech. We'll tackle a few of the flurry of executive orders that Trump signed yesterday and what they mean for climate change, immigration policy, counterterrorism and more. And then we will briefly check in on some of Trump's nominees for senior positions in national security. We'll talk about the ceasefire in Gaza, how it came to be, who gets the credit and what comes next, this TikTok ban disaster, and then the rolling madness in South Korea. And then, Ben, you did our interview today. Who'd you talk to?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I talked to Sam Rose, who's the acting director of UNWRA in Gaza. So I think we've had a lot thanks to Ilona and Michael, We've had a lot of good clips from people there, but I think this is the first time I was able to interview someone at length. So, please, I know we always say this, but everybody should listen to this interview to just get a sense of what it's like in Gaza, what the mood is, what the scale of destruction is, what the humanitarian effort is focused on now, and the absolute cruel insanity of the fact that Israel has passed a law that is going to ban unwra, ban any Israeli interaction with unrwa, which would essentially make it impossible for them to do their work, because they obviously work at checkpoints, and international aid workers won't be able to leave and come back under this law. So in dark times, I have to say, if you're sad about Trump, just listen to Sam Rose and think about what it's like to be in Gaza right now. So people should definitely listen to that interview.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, that's a hell of a plug if you want to be emotionally gutted twice. No, it's important, too.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, honestly, like, the positive of it is. And, you know, I didn't get to tell the guy. Exactly. But, I mean, people like this give you some hope, right? I mean, he said he's been going in and out of Gaza for, like, almost 20 years, I think. And there are good people out there trying to help other people and that there's hope in that. Let's just say.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, there is.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Ben, do you know are. I'm seeing a lot more images of just how flattened Gaza is. You know, there were images of northern Gaza that were coming out yesterday that basically, like, every structure is down. There were a lot of images of Rafah, where we kept hearing that the Israeli military invasion had been partially stopped. But it sure doesn't look like, given.

[Ben Rhodes]

The extraordinary diplomacy of the Biden administration, they really stopped that invasion that just left the place looking like Hiroshima, you know, but.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, but do you know.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I mean, are foreign journalists getting in yet? Do we know?

[Ben Rhodes]

I've not seen foreign journalists get in yet. So we'll see. I mean, there are different phases of this ceasefire. I mean, Sam was saying that the. You know, there's still. You're still not able to go from southern Gaza to northern Gaza. So there's still a lot of restrictions on movement at this phase. So we'll see.

[Tommy Vitor]

Got it, got it. Well, we will get to that and we'll talk about the phases of the ceasefire in depth. But let's start with Trump's inauguration. So the events themselves were moved inside because it is freezing cold in Washington, dc. And then, as much as I would love to make fun of Trump for being a beta wimp and point out how cold Obama's inauguration was in 2009, I'm currently in New York, and I just walked here to the studio, and I can confirm that it's brutally cold outside. So changing locations, probably a good idea, but the moving the events indoors meant a shrunken stage in dais. And despite all of that, Trump still surrounded himself with this, you know, coterie of American tech oligarchs. I'd say starting with credit where credit is due. Elon Musk bought his chair on that stage. He put $250 million into the Trump campaign, and now is this sprawling kind of White House portfolio doing God knows what. But, oh, by the way, Ben, did you see that Vivek Ramaswamy already got fired from Doge for being so annoying?

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, yeah, since his kind of bizarre tweet about. Or screech about how horrible about. What was it, Steve?

[Tommy Vitor]

By the bell.

[Ben Rhodes]

Saved by the bell. Yeah. Screech. Yeah. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

We gotta laugh when we can.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, we do.

[Tommy Vitor]

So Vivek's fired from Doge. Elon still running it, but, like, aside from Elon Right. Who's like in the club. I mean on that stage were Meta's Mark Zuckerberg, Google's Sundar Pichai, Amazon's Jeff Bezos, OpenAI's Sam Altman, TikTok CEO Xiaochu. So all these guys are just sitting next to the incoming. Oh, by the way, the TikTok CEO is sitting next to the incoming Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, which I guess shout out to her, somebody, somebody.

[Ben Rhodes]

Had a sense of humor in the seating chart.

[Tommy Vitor]

General hands on approach to intelligence collection. But like, we'll get into that TikTok stuff later.

[Sponsor Announcer]

But I just, you know, I also.

[Tommy Vitor]

Spotted Murray Madison, who's a huge Trump donor. Sheldon Adelson's wife, he's passed away, but she is reportedly wants Trump to annex the West Bank. That's sort of like the.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, that's what she priced. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

For. Yeah. What she wants to buy as annexation. So I just want to get your takeaway, Ben, from. From seeing this new American oligarchy on display at the inauguration. I mean again, a lot of the tech CEOs were there cuz they had to bend the knee to Trump and I think he was showing the world like, look, watch, look at all these supplicants kind of bow down to me. But it did strike me that like.

[Sponsor Announcer]

The message that sends to the world.

[Tommy Vitor]

Is the United States mixing business and donor money in a way that just was completely new. I mean, our political system is disgusting and full of money and it's terrible. But the optics of having like donors ahead of the Cabinet, pretty. Pretty on the nose.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. It kind of felt like a straight line from the Citizens United decision to that tableau. Yeah. So the decision by the Supreme Court to allow unlimited money and dark money in American politics kind of leads to this oligarchy quite directly. So there's no way of fixing it without fixing money in politics, which isn't happening anytime soon. I guess my reaction, apart from just being totally disgusted by those people because they don't. Look, if you want to be sympathetic, okay, maybe, you know, you feel like you need to play ball a little bit with Trump to stop him from destroying your company, but you actually don't need to sit up there like that. No, I mean, I didn't, you know, not at all like, like you don't. As he's running down America and giving this kind of dark, apocalyptic speech and anointing himself as chosen by God to save America, like, you don't need to sit there. And I think what I. We've talked a bunch about oligarchs on this show. Like, obviously Russian oligarchs and Hungarian oligarchs and Indian oligarchs. It's not a new idea that there are people that are powerful and politically connected and own media enterprises and have deep reach and life and, you know, of the people in a country. I think what's different, though, Tommy, is that we're the United States, and so our oligarchs are mega powerful globally, you know, so. Yeah, it's not, you know, yeah. Viktor Orban has a buddy who was one of his childhood friends, and I think this guy was like a plumber, and now he's like a billionaire, you know, and so, you know, and then he finds, fine, that guy doesn't control technology companies that influence life everywhere on Earth. And so I think what makes this kind of extra scary is that, you know, Meta is the leading experience of the Internet and communications for hundreds of millions, if not billions of people around the world. You know, Sam Altman is. And, And, And, And Google are developing artificial intelligence that as is.

[Sponsor Announcer]

As is Meta.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, yeah, I'll try to change the.

[Ben Rhodes]

World that could transform life on Earth, you know, and so I think what is so unsettling about it is, sure, it's kind of conventional oligarchy, Allah, Putin's Russia, but the stakes are just so much higher because it's the United States and there's so much power in these companies, and, and their, Their. Their personal interest are clearly, you know, now entangled with Trump's in ways that are deeply worrying. And, And I guess the last thing I'd say by way of introduction is these guys are really showing who they are because, you know, they. These are the kind of guys, some of them at least, who turn up at, like, climate change summits, you know, or like, talk about sustainability. This guy pulled out of the fucking Paris Agreement yesterday, like, as you were bending the knee and slobbering on him and, you know, grinning goofily in the kind of row of oligarchs, this guy is doing something.

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, my point is pardoning the January six riders. These all said were deplorable.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, These people clearly don't care about anything except themselves. And I know that's an obvious point, but it's just worth reinforcing. Never again believe anything any one of those people says. And even if they give some money away, they have unlimited money. It's not. It's a fucking drop in the ocean to them. And so they've just shown who they are forever. Now we now know who these people are, and it's our challenge to make it clear that this is the actual establishment in the world. The establishment isn't podcasters and climate scientists as much as right wing influencers.

[Tommy Vitor]

No. Yeah. Think the elites are the richest people on the planet. Who are sitting next to those are.

[Ben Rhodes]

The fucking elites right there.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's the elites I did. Ben. You know, sometimes when you, you buy a ticket on like StubHub at the last minute to Fenway park or like Shea Stadium.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

There are seats with obstructed views. Like you're behind like a huge concrete pillar. That was basically where they put Mike Pence, which I did, which I did find kind of funny. Like Joe, Joe Rogan had a better seat than Rotunda, it seem. But also Trump invited lots of heads of state to attend the inauguration. He invited Chinese President Xi Jinping, Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian President, Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel. They didn't come, which is normal. But he did get the kind of conservative rogues gallery of right wing populace. I think we spotted Italian Prime Minister Giorgio Meloni, who was there. Argentinian President Javier Milei. For some reason, former British Prime Minister Liz Truss and the Tory former Home Secretary Suella Braverman showed up. I don't know why Liz Truss comes to all these events. Like, who wants to see Liz Truss? It's. It's the least exciting person I could imagine.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, and I saw like Suella Breverman posting selfies of herself in the freezing cold in D.C. like, what is she there to do? Like, she doesn't run anything like this, this kind of right wing, you know, lunatic fringe of people that just kind of want to bask in the glow of Trump. But this is a person with no standing. Like, really. So, yeah, we got treated. All those people, I'm glad that they had a fun day. Good for them.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I hope, I hope they wore long underwear. Trump himself, he gave like three different speeches. There was the official inaugural speech. There was the MAGA red meat that he did right after to the overflow room at the Capitol, which was even longer and crazier. They talked about, like Pelosi wanting January 6th to happen. Then he went to the Capital One arena for this big rally with supporters who are supposed to go to the parade that was canceled because it was too cold. Then he did like a 45 minute executive order signing in the Oval Office that was also part press conference. And it was just this classic, like Steve Bannon flood, the Zone with shit day. But, Ben, I don't know if you saw this at the Capitol One rally, Trump invited a bunch of the Israeli hostage families onto the stage, and then he went on a rant with them, just standing there about the J6 hostages is what he was calling them, the January6 insurrectionists who are being held to prison until he pardoned them last night. And then he did all these tributes to his own family, which is a very weird thing to do in front of these people who are, like, desperately trying to get loved ones home. But back to the speeches. Ben, this is an excerpt from, like, the actual official inaugural speech for you guys to enjoy.

[Donald Trump]

My proudest legacy will be that of a peacemaker and unifier. That's what I want to be, a peacemaker and a unifier. Fire. A short time from now, we are going to be changing the name of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America. And we will restore the name of a great president, William McKinley, to Mount McKinley, where it should be and where it belongs. President McKinley made our country very rich through tariffs and through talent. He was a natural businessman and gave Teddy Roosevelt the money for many of the great things he did, including the Panama Canal. We have been treated very badly from this foolish gift that should have never been made. And Panama's promise to us has been broken. And above all, China is operating the Panama Canal, and we didn't give it to China. We gave it to Pan, and we're taking it back.

[Tommy Vitor]

Okay, so fun transition from peacemaker to annexing waterways and invading Panama. Ben, we've sort of talked about the, the facts and the substance of this Panama Canal process before, but any, any big takeaways from the various speeches yesterday or the rhetoric generally?

[Ben Rhodes]

I, I think that first of all, the rhetoric, what scared me about the rhetoric, right, is there's this kind of normal, dark, apocalyptic stuff right up top. And then he has this point where he talks about getting shot and, you know, the bullet ripping through his ear. And then he says, he basically says something like, you know, God saved me, I think, to so that I could make America great again or something. And, and with Trump, you're always, you know, we'll go back and forth. Maybe this is all just like he's a show with right wing politics so that he can, like, get rich, you know, on his corruption and on his Trump mem. Coin and things like that. But then every now and then, you hold open the possibility that, that he is, you know, what he sounds like, which is a straight up scary right wing I mean, if you read that 20 years ago, you'd be like, oh, there's a fascist running the United States, you know, and, and, and so that scared me, you know, but who knows, maybe that's just him being Trump and you know, I don't want to over crank it.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, I mean, you're right to mention it because there's a lot of this in his convention speech too. I mean, this kind of divine intervention. He's a gift from the Lord to save us. It's a thing that I think kind of emerged from the kind of evangelical nationalist fringe of the party that he is appropriated.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. And it's just never good for someone to think that about themselves, whoever they are. By the way, you know, on the other stuff, I mean, first of all, like, you know, it had the State of the Union feel. Cause, you know, all these members of Congress in an enclosed space. Yeah, the cheers for the Gulf of America. What a bunch of children, you know, I mean, it's just stupid. It reminded me though, Tommy, like, do you remember that in meetings there were always some people in the Pentagon that insisted on calling the Persian Gulf the Arabian Gulf? Like.

[Tommy Vitor]

No. Why?

[Ben Rhodes]

Because it was like fuck the Iranians or something. So there's a history of some of this stuff. But I have to say what jumped out to me about the Panama section is it's a big deal usually to put something in an inaugural address. I've worked on inaugural addresses, like you expect every word to be scrutinized. Now with Trump, you never know what he's signaling. But I mean, there was a lot of real estate in that speech for the fucking Panama Canal. Interestingly, Greenland didn't make an appearance. I don't know if the dude got to him or something, but it seemed kind of scary cuz he. Later in the speech he talks about territorial expansion. Like at the end he was doing a litany of things he's gonna do to make America great. And one was expanding our territory. That's not something we've heard. And this William McKinley reference, first of all, if there is an afterlife, William McKinley must be quite confused right now about the comeback of his.

[Tommy Vitor]

He's having a moment.

[Ben Rhodes]

He's having a moment. But William McKinley was there at the dawn of American imperialism, right? So this is Spanish American war stuff. America claiming territories. And they seem to have been reading up on William McKinley. And that's what that's about. I mean, it's not his business acumen, it's this guy enlarged the United States through overseas territories and So I just think whether it's Panama or Greenland, I think this is a part of the agenda. I just have no idea, you know, is he going to put terrorists on Panama? Because Panama is not going to give up the canal. So I just don't quite understand what the policy is, but I think again, we should take it seriously.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And it's funny, they seem to seize on a president early on in his administration. The first term I remember was Andrew Jackson. They were constantly talking about Andrew Jackson. He had a portrait of Andrew Jackson up and people are kind of like, hey man, have you googled Trail of Tears? And some of the darker parts of his history? But yeah, they don't care. It's. It's almost like a troll.

[Ben Rhodes]

It is like, I mean, do we think that Donald Trump like knew much about William McKinley like a few years ago? Like someone clearly is like, you know, pitched him on this idea that he's the modern day McKinley, I guess, you know.

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[Tommy Vitor]

So he did all the speeches, he did that press conference, he did all those EOs. And then the New York Times blog, a reporter named Sean McCreesh posted that, doing after all that, he said, quote, president Trump is now waving a military sword around in the air while dancing to the Village People. Still an hour to go.

[Ben Rhodes]

We got the, we got the full experience yesterday. We got the full ride yesterday.

[Tommy Vitor]

It was quite a day. But let's get to the substance. So Trump signed like 200 EOs yesterday. We're not going to go through all these executive orders. That would take all day. But here's a few of the most relevant ones for us. Trump pulled us out of the Paris Climate Accords and the World Health Organization. Ben, I don't know if you watched this kind of 45 minute Oval Office signing event slash press conference, but after he got handed the World Health Organization executive order to sign, he goes, ooh, that's a big one. He was like excited about it. It was very funny. He did a bunch of immigration executive orders. The impact of those was felt immediately. There's this unbelievably sad Washington Post story today about a Cuban family that had escaped Cuba. I think they went through Nicaragua to Get to Mexico City. They waited Mexico City for six months, where they applied for an asylum meeting through the CBP1 app, which is the app you could download to try to do the right thing and follow the rules to get into the U.S. asylum process. And then their appointment, which was supposed to happen the first day of the Trump administration, just got canceled. So this woman had had a c section 45 days ago. They had a newborn baby. They have nowhere to go, nothing to do, no plan B. And it was just, you know, devastating. The. He also, you know, Trump also designated drug cartels as a foreign terrorist organization. I'm very interested to understand what that means in practice, Ben. It's like, are we now at war with them? Are we going to try to kill them? Is the US Military going to be launching strikes? I mean, this was a big conversation during the campaign. I guess time will tell if it was literal. The one area where Trump did not deliver on his campaign promises was on the tariffs. He promised the. The promised 25% tariffs on Mexico and Canada. That apparently is going to have to wait until February 1st. And then I think Trump basically told agencies to study further trade issues and tariffs. So, long story short, no 10 to 20% tariffs across the board on day one, and no 60% tariffs on Chinese goods. Given Ben, that our mantra for this next four years is watch what he does, not what he says. What do you think were the most important executive actions that came out of yesterday?

[Ben Rhodes]

I think even though it was obviously expected, pulling out of the Paris Agreement, you know, cannot be overstated. I mean, it just is debilitating to international coordination to fight climate change. And if you couple that with his, you know, giddy references to liquid gold and drill, baby, drill in his inaugural.

[Tommy Vitor]

Dress, like an expanded drilling. Yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

The fact we're living in a city, Tommy, where it's like, burning down because of climate change and it's 2025 and we got people pulling out of international climate. I mean, it's absurd to me that we are here. And so that will have real effects. It will diminish America's capacity to participate in. And you like to be galvanizing climate action. It will totally cede the space to China as the kind of clean energy superpower and as the country that is still in this. And I think what we'll see is, you know, European countries getting closer to China, like, so it's, it's. It's an ultimate own goal. And people can, like, dunk on me for being a lib who cares about climate change, but I mean, all those people can be living on this planet too. So I don't know what they think they're getting out of it. Pulling out of the World Health Organization, you know, will, God forbid there's another, you know, pandemic or any kind of epidemic disease. It will obviously make it harder to coordinate international action in that regard. We live in a world, as we learned during COVID where there's movement of peoples. And so not being a part of the global health infrastructure is a pretty dumb thing to do. And gee, I thought we would have learned something from the pandemic that happened under Trump's watch, but obviously not. I just know, Tommy, that, you know, after Joe Biden's courageous decision to remove Cuba from the state sponsor of terrorism list a few days before he left office, Trump obviously put them right back on. Might have been good to do that a few years ago to give it some space. So that one, obviously, not surprisingly, suggests that Cuba's back in its kind of in its destitution. So that jumped out to me as well. And yeah, on the cartels piece, in addition to the potential for military action in Mexico, you know, enforcing those sanctions, the cartels, you know, that designation should mean that anybody that does any business.

[Tommy Vitor]

With cartels is government, Mexico, Mexican military.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Right.

[Ben Rhodes]

Or any, I mean, do you know how many. The cartels are worth billions of dollars. And, and so, you know, they control infrastructure in certain Latin American countries. You know, they have front companies that do other things. And so what I'm curious about, like you, is the actual enforcement of just even the sanction. By the way, a lot of Americans, you know, where do you think they buy the guns, guys, you know, they, they get the guns in the United States. So if they actually want to enforce that in the same way that the US Tries to enforce that with Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations, you'd be sanctioning a lot of people and entities. So I'm just curious whether that's a messaging tool or whether they're actually going to do something with it.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, that one. I mean, it could be so far reaching because there's all these news reports about very senior Mexican government officials with deals or agreements or ties to cartels, senior leaders in the Mexican military, as you noted, all kinds of business leaders. So, yeah, one to watch in terms of the enforcement. A couple of stupid, petty things. Ben, I don't know if you saw Trump, they got, they removed the security clearances from 51 former National Security officials who signed that letter back in 2020. That Hunter Biden's laptop had, quote, all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation. Obviously, that letter was wrong. It was hedged and couched and it said, you know, it's like their opinion at the time, but it was wrong. But I just wondered, though, it was wrong, by the way.

[Ben Rhodes]

By the way, I just want to say, Tommy, and I'm in a mood today about this. It was wrong because we were lied to by the Biden campaign. I mean, I remember feeling like an idiot because they said, oh, this is Russian disinformation.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right.

[Ben Rhodes]

So let's just be clear, like the. That. That. That, you know, they should have owned up to Hunter's laptop, but full stop. Sorry.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. I mean, maybe Hunter just told them what he did with it. But the one thing that just jumped out at me is I don't know how many of those people still have security clearances. So it just seemed, like, kind of stupid and petty. And the other really super petty thing I noticed they did was the Pentagon removed former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mark Milley's portrait from the Pentagon hallway ten days after it had been put up. This is the pettiest shit I've ever heard.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, that's what I mean by. There's like, a childishness to some of this stuff. Like the portrait, I will say it's an indication of. You look for these indicators of how things are different this time around. Around. And we've talked about the appointments and everything. Do you remember last time, like, something like a year or two into the Trump administration, he revoked John Brennan's security clearance because Brennan was like, tweeting like, you scoundrel. You know, and. And it was like a big story. It was like, wow, like, they revoked John Brennan's security clearance, and now we're starting there, right? So it's where you got a running start here, you know, and it's not the thing to be most upset about by any stretch, but, like, some of those people, you know, they do jobs that require them to have a security.

[Tommy Vitor]

Some of them are screwed.

[Ben Rhodes]

So some of them are actually kind of screwed.

[Tommy Vitor]

Weird deal. Anyway, just for folks, just for context, executive orders allow the President to direct government operations within existing law, but you need an act of Congress to write a new law to actually amend a law to appropriate money. So a lot of these EOs will end up dealing with court challenges. Some of them could be struck down. Some of them are glorified press releases. But we'll see some of them will have pretty serious impacts. And obviously, Trump has Packed the court. But, Ben, just a quick update on the personnel stuff. So Marco Rubio was unanimously confirmed to be Secretary of State. Not at all surprised about that. That's kind of like a free bipartisan vote for everybody. Pete Hegseth passed out of the Armed Services Committee, I think along partisan lines, which suggests he's on track to be confirmed as Secretary of Defense, which is crazy. The one nominee that is still dealing with some issues is Tulsi Gabbard, Trump's pick to be the Director of National Intelligence. Adding to her complications or political problems? The Washington Post has a piece out today that is based off of a bunch of records from her congressional office. I think these records were turned over maybe to the House Ethics Committee or to the vetting people looking at her nomination. And it's from the period when her aides were trying to deal with the political blowback from Tulsi's trip to Syria in meeting with Bashar al Assad in 2017. Apparently, she met with Assad for three hours, then she met with Assad's wife, and then met with Assad again a day or two later. But when Tulsi's trip to Syria in Lebanon was approved by the Ethics Committee, her itinerary included no meetings with Syrian officials. So the very clear takeaway from this story and these emails and these back and forths with her staff and, like, edits into this Google Doc where they're trying to figure out their spin is that it sounds like Tulsi lied to her own staff about this Syria trip and specifically tried to claim that the Assad meeting just kind of popped up once she got to Syria. But then there's an email exchange about the optics of her meeting with him literally one hour after she got into the country. So there's just seemingly no possible way this meeting with the fucking, you know, despot head of state in Syria just kind of happened versus being planned out. It's very fucking shady.

[Ben Rhodes]

It is very shady. And I want to say something nice about a couple of Biden people first, though, because I've been a little hard on, obviously, Biden himself, Avril Haynes, who's the outgoing dni, you know, really extraordinary person who did under the radar, very good work. Right? So I just, you know, note that there's a very good person leaving. And we got Tulsi coming in, Bill Burns, obviously, you know, who we talked about, did a great job at CIA. This thing about Tulsi and Assad, what is so alarming about this, Tommy, is that the best case scenario is that she just decided to have a three hour meeting with Bashar Al Assad, an absolutely murderous dictator that there's no reason to meet with. That's one end of the spectrum. And then the spectrum runs all the way to like, someone was like, running Tulsi, you know, and, like, setting up the meeting and what's a relationship with Russia and, and I don't, I'm not, you know, like, there are serious questions here that I think will be. One of the things I'm struck by, Tommy, is that, you know, she's been having meetings with senators and the, you know, the same senators that are like, oh, yeah, Pete Hexad, he's great. You know, like, you know, we need him there at the Pentagon.

[Tommy Vitor]

Seems sober to me.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, it seems. Or no, not even that. Like, haven't you voted drunk in the Senate?

[Tommy Vitor]

Sober enough? Yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

Some of those same senators seem to be alarmed by Tulsi.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Could we just pause for like.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

What Ben just said is a literal quote from, I think, Mark Wayne Mullen, a senator defending Pete's death, who is like, oh, you care that this guy's drunk? How many of you have voted drunk? As if, like, voting tipsy for, like, cloture on a post office. Naming is the same as like, getting a call about whether or not to fire a nuke back at Russia at three in the morning.

[Ben Rhodes]

That's the thing that happened. That's the thing that happened.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's the thing that happened.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's a thing that actually happened in reality, to be clear. But yeah, like, the intelligence community would know probably something about this meeting because Bashar al Assad is obviously somebody that the US Intelligence community has been, you know, watching. And so what we don't know is kind of what is in the backdrop of this story. And interestingly, again, the US Intelligence community, and presumably some of the people on the Senate Intelligence Committee probably know, you know, so it'll be an interesting hearing. And it just makes. What do you think she's about, Tommy? Because I don't. Like, part of me is like, is she just kind of in that weird convergence of the left and the right where you agree with everything Russia says? Because you just, you know, you're in that kind of weird, you know, Tucker Carlson kind of space, or does she just like a kind of attention? So she wanted to meet with Assad. I know what is going on. Do you think it's so hard to follow?

[Tommy Vitor]

Because, listen, the very charitable version of it is she served in the US Military, she was deployed to Iraq she saw what a disaster it was and came back very opposed to any wars, including any US Military intervention in Syria. And I can totally understand that.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

But I think she also kind of got folded into the kind of horseshoe, left, right, place of the people who were opposed to US Government surveillance. And again, no problem with any of that, but she's already flip flopped on Section 702 surveillance, which is the authority that allows the intelligence community to get information from all these American telecom companies. Right. Get into emails, get into whatever texts, et cetera. Right. So she flip flop on that. So she's already abandoned her position there. To your point, on kind of the best case on this trip. Like, it seems like it seems quite clear that she lied to the ethics committee about why she was going to Syria and then was misleading to her own staff about what she did while she was on the ground in Damascus. And then when she got back to the United States, she was just. I don't know, maybe she just got dug in, but she refused, like, a month later. I think Assad used chemical weapons on his own people, and she went on TV casting doubt on the conclusion by the intelligence community that it was Assad who had used poison gas rather than the opposition. So it's like, what information are you getting? How are you vetting this in your own head? All these things are very important for the job. She also proposed legislation that would have prevented the US Government from providing funds or weapons to the Syrian opposition. Again, like a perfectly reasonable defensible position, but just strange given all this other context.

[Sponsor Announcer]

And she met with all these, like.

[Tommy Vitor]

Assad advisors and supporters, Ben. Including a Syrian cleric who, according to the Washington Post, had threatened to activate a network of suicide bombers in the US And Europe if Western countries intervened in Syria. It doesn't sound like she was meeting with, like, a parade of peacemakers.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Build bridges.

[Ben Rhodes]

That's right. To your point, like, if she really was earnestly just, you know, we have to talk to everybody because we have to avoid war. Why not come out and say that? You know?

[Sponsor Announcer]

Right.

[Ben Rhodes]

Why not just say, you know what? I think we have to talk to our enemy. I've made the case we have to talk to our enemies, not just our friends. And so therefore I'm gonna meet with Assad. And I wouldn't have liked that, but at least it makes sense. There's something deeply strange about how she's handled this. The other thing I just want to point out, Tommy, is that, like, you know, I was. Took me like a Few extra months to get my security clearance just because I was honest about my past drug use on my SF86. We're putting someone in charge of the US intelligence community that any employee seeking a security clearance would totally get nixed for this, right?

[Tommy Vitor]

Like all day, every day lying about.

[Ben Rhodes]

Because they ask you in all these interviews, you know, have you had a girlfriend or boyfriend from a foreign country? Like, all the places you've traveled, they really, like, you know, go deep on this stuff. And so literally, what is it say? I know norms are out the door, you know, but there's this kind of vast enterprise of the US Government investigating people to get security clearances and to work in the intelligence community, but basically the person who's being put in charge, like, would never pass that vet. It just, it is going to totally upend the kind of, you know, culture. And look, I think they've been too stringent on things like drug use and, and whatever.

[Tommy Vitor]

But there's a lot of dumb questions.

[Ben Rhodes]

It points to the absurdity and I'm not sure it fits with Trump's pledge yesterday in his inaugural address to run a meritocracy, you know.

[Tommy Vitor]

No. Also, Ben Tulsi went to Syria with Dennis Kucinich and they both brought their spouses. Why would you bring your spouse to fucking war torn Syria in the middle of a civil. What are you doing? This is vacation.

[Ben Rhodes]

I forgot Dennis Kucinich was alive.

[Tommy Vitor]

I know. Well, remember he ran against Obama.

[Ben Rhodes]

Wasn't he, in 08 primaries? But he was like on the.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, he was like a gadfly candidate. These things I don't know. Very, very strange story. One to watch, I think. Look, the other. Last week, I think I said that most of Trump's nominees looked like they were out of the woods. Tulsi might be the only one.

[Ben Rhodes]

She's the only one that seems, you know, Meanwhile, Cash Patel is going to skate right through, you know.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, he's loving this. He's loving the. Yeah, she's his fullback. All right, Ben. So the best news since last week's show is that Israel and Hamas finally agreed to a ceasefire deal. So far, the deal is holding. On Sunday, three Israeli women were released by Hamas, three Israeli hostages were released by Hamas, and then shortly after, 90 Palestinian prisoners were released by Israel. The AP said that these Palestinian prisoners that Israel released were all women or teenagers who had been detained for offenses ranging from throwing rocks to promoting violence on social media to more serious allegations of attempted murder. The agreement itself, the broader agreement, has three phases. Phase one is six weeks long and includes this gradual release of 33 Israeli hostages, mostly women, the elderly and the sick. In this phase one, in exchange for about a thousand Palestinians being held by Israel. In this phase, the Israeli military is supposed to withdraw from population centers. Gazans are supposed to be able to allow to move more freely through the Gaza Strip and return home, although they are returning to neighborhoods that are completely flattened, as we discussed a minute ago. And then aid is being surged into the Gaza Strip. The deal calls for 600 trucks per day of humanitarian assistance to go into Gaza. Phase two is supposed to be six weeks long. You'd see the release of the rest of the hostages being held by Hamas, along with the release of more Palestinian prisoners. And the IDF is supposed to fully get out of Gaza. Phase three is this long reconstruction phase. But here's the rub. The details of phase two and three have not been negotiated yet. That process starts on day 16 of phase one. So this whole deal is very tenuous. And there's a smart piece in Aretz about Israel's history of making these kind of phased deals. And they never get over the finish line. They never get completed. And there's also the political reality that right wing members of Netanyahu's cabinet have said they will topple the government if the war actually ends. Which is why Netanyahu and his top staff have said over and over again that Israel reserves the right to resume fighting whenever they want, basically. So all of that has families of hostages very nervous and as people want to see this war end, very nervous. Along those lines, we caught up with Maya Roman. She had one family member held hostage by Hamas who was released and other another family member killed by Hamas in the fighting. Here's a clip from Maya.

[Maya Roman]

Everyone keeps saying it's like finally being able to take a breath because really it's so long and everyone is so tired. So the thought that it might, you know, be over is, is amazing. At the same time, I kept thinking that Carmel should have been here and her family should have also gotten to to hug her and Hersh's family. And, you know, it's hard not to get upset about the fact that we could have been here much earlier. This deal is the first phase is 42 days when there are three people released every week. During the first humanitarian deal, there were 10 people released every day. And even then it was pure torture. You know, every day the IDF calls you to tell you if your loved one is on the list or isn't. And it was gut wrenching. I cannot imagine what the families are going through now, having waited so long, and now it's going to go for a full month and more. At the same time, we all know that the only way forward is through. We just have to get everyone back so that everyone can start to heal. And I'm not just talking about the hostages or the hostage families, but, you know, everyone who was near the south when this happened, everyone who was relocated during this time, all the soldiers, all the women whose husbands went to war for a year, and all the. The families of those who died. It really feels like our country is still stuck on October 7th. So I really hope we can get through these next few months and finally be ready to move on.

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, I think that just sort of perfectly encapsulates just how agonizing even this process is after a ceasefire deal had been reached.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I hadn't thought about just that, that in this kind of phase withdrawal, that agony of not knowing, is my family member gonna be in the next tranche or not? And that's just gotta be horrific. I mean, it's part of what's so tragic for Maya is that the pretty similar terms to the deal that was reached were on the table, those terms, when one of her family members was killed in Gaza. And that's gotta be incredibly wrenching as well. So you just hope that all the hostages that are alive are able to. To get out through this, this deal, obviously.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, absolutely. Hope this. Hope this deal gets completed. But you can also understand why, you know, the families of hostages who might get out in phase two hate this kind of phased approach. Right. A lot of people on the streets wanted sort of one deal that got everyone else out at once. Obviously, that's not what happened here, but you could imagine just how terrifying it would be. But, Ben, I mean, there's also this, you know, far less relevant conversation in the US of not just how the deal got done, but who deserves credit for it. So the prime minister of Qatar said that this deal, the outlines of this deal have been on the table since December of 2023. And he said that the parties wasted 13 months negotiating details that have, quote.

[Sponsor Announcer]

No meaning and aren't worth any single.

[Tommy Vitor]

Life that we lost in Gaza or any single life of these hostages, end quote. It is hard to argue with that, though. I think US and Israeli negotiators would point out to us that the situation on the ground changed drastically over those 13 months, with Hamas getting decimated, Hezbollah getting decimated, and Iran getting substantially weaker because of the military back and forth with Israel But a reporter asked President Biden, who deserves credit for the deal. You are Trump. And here is his response.

[Ben Rhodes]

Thank you, books.

[Donald Trump]

Credit for this, Mr. President.

[Ben Rhodes]

You.

[Maya Roman]

Or.

[Ben Rhodes]

Is that a joke? Oh, thank you.

[Tommy Vitor]

He seems, like genuinely surprised. She says, no, it's not a joke. But anyway, look, just to cut through the bullshit on this, like, the Biden people clearly did months and months of diplomacy and diplomatic spade work to, like, put together this, this deal. It's also clear that this last minute push from, from Trump and his own boy, Steve Witkoff, got it over the finish line. And I also just want to say, Ben, like, hand up for me. I owe Steve Wyckoff an apology. We, I hereby apologize on behalf of Pod Save the World and all its listeners, because I think you and I scoffed at his appointment. He was just like a Trump golf buddy, a real estate guy. But not only did Wyckoff reportedly push Bibi to take the deal, NBC News reported that he's considering visiting Gaza and says he planned to be, quote, a near constant presence in the region over.

[Sponsor Announcer]

The coming months to make sure it's implemented.

[Tommy Vitor]

So a lot of this came from an NBC story that was quoting transition officials, but a transition official for the Trump team said, quote, remember, there's a lot of people, radicals, fanatics, not just from the Hamas side, from the right wing of the Israeli side, who are absolutely incentivized to blow this whole deal up. If we don't help the Gazans, if we don't make their life better, if we don't give them a sense of hope, there's going to be a rebellion, end quote.

[Sponsor Announcer]

And Ben, I read that.

[Tommy Vitor]

I was like, yes. Yeah, thank you. Finally someone says this. Like, am I, like a huge Steve Witkoff fan now? I don't know.

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, we gotta wait and see.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, wait and see.

[Ben Rhodes]

But look, this Biden response is totally fucking absurd. What planet does he think we're on? Like, the ceasefire happened right before Trump came to office. Like, I think I made clear my feelings about Donald Trump. I don't like the guy, but, like, if you're telling me that this would have happened otherwise, like, give me a break. If this was clearly Trump, because Trump said, publicly and privately, we talked about this. I was in Doha, by the way. I talked to some Qataris, I talked to other people. Everything you heard was that Trump was telling him, get this done, wrap this up. And all the reporting is that Witkoff was squeezing Bibi in a way that he had not been squeezed the entire time that Biden was in office. Right.

[Sponsor Announcer]

So he told him to send a.

[Tommy Vitor]

High level representative to Doha who can make decisions in real time.

[Sponsor Announcer]

And he was leveraging all the things.

[Tommy Vitor]

Trump had done for him in the first term and being like, look, we.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Did this for you, you fucking owe us this.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Now the dirty. You know, what we don't know is whether he was also saying, and here's all the other things he will do for you down the road. You know, that's. This is where still he got the deal.

[Ben Rhodes]

Look, the bottom line of this is this. What did the Biden people do? They negotiated the terms like. But to be clear, Joe Biden stood up in front of the world early last summer and announced that proposal as a, quote, Israeli proposal. Israel didn't agree to what was presented by the United States as an Israeli proposal until literally like a few days ago. And they had to be dragged there by Trump. So they were gaslighting us that whole summer when we kept hearing about how there was an Israeli proposal that Israel had agreed to and only Hamas is the outlier. I'm not suggesting Hamas had agreed to it, but sure as shit, Israel had not agreed to that proposal. So what was that about? Why?

[Tommy Vitor]

I genuinely don't understand the point of.

[Ben Rhodes]

Gaslighting us like that. Right. Well, the point is to run interference for Bibi Netanyahu to say, Bibi Netanyahu has agreed to this ceasefire when he had not. So that's one point. Second point is nobody should get credit for a situation in which Gaza has been completely obliterated and destroyed. Like a peace deal after the place has been completely destroyed is not exactly. I mean, it's great the hostages get home. It's great that trucks are getting in. And UNWRA confirmed to us that 600 trucks did get in. That's all good. But like, this idea, this isn't like a normal, like, hey, we get credit thing because this horrific thing happened. That's the other thing. And then the last thing is, this is very tenuous. And Trump yesterday was asked during that kind of rolling press conference if he was confident that the Cesar would hold. And he said, I'm not confident that it'll hold. And you got people in the Israeli government who are kind of saying, wink, wink, and this is where we have to be careful about Witkoff. We can resume our war. What you worry about is they get hostages out and then they're just kind of back in Gaza. Right? So there's a lot to play out here. But I just think that, man, there's something quite cynical about Seeing this as an occasion for competing for credit. Yeah, I mean, I'm glad that I deal that done, but it's just kind of ghoulish.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm glad the deal got done too. I think like the conversation about credit is gross and ghoulish. I do think it's worth understanding who used leverage when and how so we can learn from the mistakes of the past in the future. I'm as worried as you are given some of those Trump comments from yesterday. I mean he was, he was doing like the Jared Kushner thing, talking about Gaza like a developer talking about like the beachfront property, which is ominous if you want Gazans to live there going forward. You also have to wonder if part of Wyckoff's message was like, hey, we'll let you annex the west bank down the road. Also, Trump lifted a bunch of sanctions on right wing settler groups and individuals, I think on his first day in office. And these are people who, you know, committed violence against Palestinians in the West Bank. And right as that happened, the Israelis launched this operation in Jenin in the west bank and there were a number of settlers attacking Palestinian communities. Those settlers even attacked IDF military members who were sent to try to break up the violence. So things are real dicey. And to your point about, you know, just the disaster that is Gaza and like yes, the, the fighting has stopped but now people have to live there and that's nearly impossible with no structures. We got a voice note from Shruk Ela, a journalist from Gaza City who is telling us about what life is like for Gazans who are returning home. Now here's a clip.

[Maya Roman]

What I am feeling, it is a mix of complex emotions, a relief that tempered by grief. I really over the stopping of the killing and grieve over the losing of my husband, the losing of my home, the losing of my sense of security and the terror that we have been enduring in the past 15 months. This ceasefire has brought a hope, a window of hope for the people here in Gaza in the future. But still the future is uncertain. Like for example, like I, I've lost the family house, I lost my siblings homes and my home as well. So the realities is so fragile here as we don't have any place to go for. So the displacement circle seems endless. Basically we are renting an apartment along with five families. We are almost 19 persons here and in one small apartment which is quiet like it's too much. Basically the future is so voggy. The ceasefire is subjected somehow to collapse because you know, just day do day two of the sea, the implementation of the ceasefire and who knows what comes in the future.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's just a, you know, important reminder of how important it'll be to not only keep this ceasefire together and implement it and keep both sides sort of on track, but also this reconstruction period because, you know, 19 people living in an apartment that is untenable.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, no, we talk about this in the under interview. I mean, there's also a lot of unexploded ordinance in that rubble. So you can't just kind of lose it. Right. And bodies. Right. So it's gonna be painstaking just to clear the rubble. So you just hope that the ceasefire holds, the hostages get reunited with their families and people just can get some normalcy because part of what they also have to do, and you heard this in her voice, they have not had time to digest the loss. You know, they've just been trying to survive, traumatize. Right. And so they need to take a breath there, you know, and so let's hope, I mean, you know, if Steve Witkoff wants to, to stay in the region and, and get. Get normalcy, great. You know, I do worry, you know, I saw. I just worry about. Yeah, what was the, the quid pro quo? We'll find out, I guess.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, we'll find out.

[Ben Rhodes]

All right.

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Okay, Ben, let's talk about TikTok for a minute. As listeners know, TikTok was briefly bit blocked in the United States over the weekend. Any of the 170 million people in the US who are trying to use it were denied their TikTok fix when they saw a message that said, quote, we are fortunate that President Trump has indicated that he will work with us on a solution to reinstate TikTok once he takes office. That was the TikTok is banned message. And then a little later, when TikTok decided to restore its own service, they saw a message that said as a result of President Trump's efforts, TikTok is back in the US So just to summarize, TikTok turned off his own service and then turned it on and credited President Trump in the interim. The backstory on this, you know, the quick backstory is in his first term. Trump tried to ban TikTok kind of on the way out the door. Then, according to a bunch of news reports, he changed his mind after meeting with a billionaire named Jeff Yass, who owns a big chunk of ByteDance, which is the parent company of TikTok. And now Trump is saying he's a fan of the app. He's portraying himself as savior of the app. Trump was asked about this last night during his Oval Office press conference. Here is what he had to say. You wanted to block TikTok. Why did you change your mind?

[Donald Trump]

Because I got to use it. And remember, TikTok is largely about kids, young kids. If China is going to get information about young kids, I don't know. I think, I think, to be honest, I think we have bigger problems than that. But, but, you know, when you take a look at telephones that are made in China and all the other things that are made in China, military equipment made in China, tick tock. I think TikTok is not their biggest problem. But there's big value on TikTok. If it gets approved. If it doesn't get approved, there's no value. So if we create that value, why aren't we entitled to like, half?

[Tommy Vitor]

It's like this was. Banning TikTok was like one of the few bipartisan things that happened in Congress. 79 U.S. senators voted to ban TikTok.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And Trump's like, who gives a fuck?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. And they've all done like a whiplash on this. I mean, you know, people that were fervently against TikTok are now fervently for it. It tells you a lot. I mean, there is an oligarchy watch thing. In addition to World War Watch, we'll have oligarchy watch. The app. Kind of thanking Mr. Trump for saving them is so on the nose. Right. I guess I'd just say you guys had a good conversation about this on Pots of America. The national security perspective. Here is the data one, the massive data collection, message collection. And on that one, I kind of see Trump's point. Like, China's already hacked. Like they were listening to Trump's phone. Like, I think that the horse is out of the barn on China collecting data on Americans.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, they're in every telecom company.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. It may be more efficient to have their own app, but, you know, I don't share that concern. I do worry. I mean, cuz, let's be clear. The Chinese Communist Party ultimately calls the shots for a company like this. There's a reason they have not sold the US subsidiary, the CCP hasn't signed off on that. And it is a bit alarming that, like, half of Americans, including young people whose minds are being formed, are being fed by an algorithm that is ultimately controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. Like that, you know, people. Tiktokers can like, you know, roll their eyes at the stuffy national security guy, but that's just true. And that. That. That is alarming. And you just rather a us because we don't even know how the algorithm works. Right? Like, we. It's not, you know, it's. It's. It's proprietary information in China. And what selling it to a US Company would do is at least, you know, now there'd be more credibility for the US Government if we regulated our own tech platforms that are poisoning our young people. So it's not like meta is this healthy platform, you know. So I don't know what happens here. It seems like there's probably not a reality in which TikTok is going to go away entirely because Trump has decided this is now politically useful to him, and he's got this kind of tech kitchen cabinet, but I'm sure what he wants is an oligarch of his own to buy it. And so if this was Hungary, I mean, this is a test I'm gonna apply a lot to Trump administration. What. What they try to do is consolidate all the media underneath the Orban oligarchs. And so I'm sure the outcome Trump is trying to get is Elon or somebody who's Trumpy owns TikTok and then he controls it, you know, and. And splits the profits of the Chinese Communist Party. It's perfect.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. I think he's trying to force a sale, too, into the hands of one of their more favorable allies. I also did enjoy the sort of interim period where all these American users were downloading another Chinese social media app called RedNote and learning all about RedNote.

[Ben Rhodes]

What do you think?

[Tommy Vitor]

Chinese CEN.

[Ben Rhodes]

Not exactly subtle, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's.

[Tommy Vitor]

No one cares whatever. Welcome to America.

[Ben Rhodes]

The Chinese just must be laughing at this thing too, though. Like, it's. It's humiliating how much they're having a blast, I'm sure. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

How scared we are of an app and how it's roiled US Politics. Speaking of which, Ben, let's talk about the. The rolling mess that is happening in South Korea for a minute. So listeners will remember that the chaos has reigned in South Korea since President Yoon Suk Yul declared martial law in early December after a couple of tries he was impeached by South Korea's National Assembly. But that is just the beginning of the saga, because impeachment isn't official until it's approved by the Constitutional Court in South Korea and the President is removed. So they're in this weird sort of like, you know, purgatory. Last week, police were finally able to bring Yoon Suk Yul in for questioning on these separate criminal insurrection charges that had been challenging initially. They ended up having to bring, I think I heard, 3,000 police officers to the President's house to get him to finally turn himself in. Did he answer any questions when the cops were interviewing him? No, but I guess showing up his progress. And then over the weekend, Yoon was officially arrested. He got the mug shot and all. But even that created problems because his supporters were very pissed off. And dozens of Yoon heads stormed the Seoul Western District Court, smashing windows and mirrors and just like generally causing chaos. The Guardian reported that 90 people were arrested and 51 police officers were injured. So Yoon and the current president condemn the violence, but it doesn't mean he's, you know, he's not participating in this investigation. In the criminal case, Van Yoon says that this body that is investigating him, the Corruption Investigation Office for High Ranking Officials or cio, doesn't have the authority to even investigate him or talk to him. So they're at an impasse. South Korea's President does not have immunity from these insurrection charges. He could face the death penalty or life in prison if he's convicted, although South Korea has not executed anyone in 30 years, so it's very unlikely that will happen. On Tuesday, Yoon made an appearance at his impeachment trial at the Constitutional Court. There, he claimed that he did not order the military to remove legislators from the assembly after he declared martial law, and that his order to enact martial law was a formality that was not meant to be executed. I don't really know what that means. Either way, this is a total mess, Ben, this legal saga. You know, there's an impeachment in a criminal case. That's going to be this rolling process for Yoon Suk Yul for a while. But let's say Yoon is impeached and removed. South Korea holds elections and the opposition Democratic Party is elected. The opposition leader is this guy named Lee Jae Meng. He will likely take South Korea's foreign policy in a totally different direction, especially their willingness to work with the us, to work with Japan under this kind of anti China framework that both the Biden administration, the Trump administration supports. And it's Likely that Seoul will then be much friendlier with North Korea and Russia. So it's like a bit of a careful what you wish for situation for the Trump folks, because either they get this very damaged political leader in Yoon Suk Yul, although his supporters are surprisingly rallying to him through all this madness.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, it's got kind of J6 choir vibes, you know.

[Tommy Vitor]

Totally. Yeah. It's very Trumpy, actually. I mean, he might get just. Just end up back in office. Or they get this guy from the Democratic Party, Lee Jim Young, who will just disagree with them on a lot of policy. Lee Jimmy was the guy who was stabbed in the neck about a year ago. Do you remember that, Ben?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. South Korean politics, man, it's wild.

[Tommy Vitor]

No question there.

[Ben Rhodes]

Just a lot of, you know. Yeah, my only take would be, you know, because this is just playing out and it's insanely dramatic and clearly is, you know, a massive stress test for South Korea's political system to just come out the other end of this thing. And I just. This is one where it's going to be interesting what Trump does, because, you know, he. South Korea, remember, his only real interest in South Korea was wanting them to, like, pay us more money to have troops stationed there. And he canceled joint exercises between the US And South Korea as like a gift to Kim Jong Un. So he's not particularly South Korea friendly in orientation. And you could see a world in which he likes this guy because this guy is being persecuted by his own deep state or something and could roil South Korean politics that way. Or what is going to be the Trump outreach to Kim Jong Un if the Democratic Party does get in? You know, last time, Trump had somebody who was more favorable towards engagement with North Korea, and that kind of actually made it easier for Trump to do his diplomacy. So he might not mind that guy. So you just don't know because Trump's orientation is so weird. I think the thing to watch in general, as with Europe, Japan, South Korea, Canada, I guess, is. Is. Is the degree to which Trump kind of pushes countries into different orientations. You know, these countries that have been very dependent on the US for security and for political support, in some cases for trade, whether they just kind of realign, I think Trump is going to set in motion that. So for South Korea was going to have a tough time anyway. Like, if everything was totally normal in South Korea, the Trump administration would be a big challenge to them given his orientation towards North Korea. Now they actually have incentive, I think, to go the way the Democratic Party. Hey, we might need to get closer to the Chinese. You know, we might need to figure out how to live with Kim Jong Un. That's what I would probably expect to see coming out on the other end of this.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. So another one to watch for just the general, you know, uncertainty in the world right now. Finally, Ben. So it's 2025. By now everyone should probably know that posting the wrong thing on social media can get you in trouble from time to time. But I do. I still think it's incumbent on us to call out the kind of cancel culture scolds when they go too far.

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Which brings us to the story of.

[Tommy Vitor]

A Spanish man named Juan Bernabe. He lives in Italy, where he is the falconer who handles the eagle mascot for the Lazio soccer team. In Italy. It's a Serie A team. Juan posted photos and videos of his own brand new prosthetic penis on Instagram and he got fired for that. The. The Associated Press described the prosthetic surgery as, quote, for non medical reasons. I wasn't sure how to read between the lines there, but luckily the Atlantic had us covered. They quoted Bernabe saying, quote, I had.

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The surgery to increase my sexual performance.

[Tommy Vitor]

Because I'm very active. My erection is normal, but with this device, I press a button that allows me to be able to perfectly control both the erection and the duration. But you know what, Ben? That got him fired. This poor man just posts his dong on. On Instagram. He basically RFK junior thing and he got fired. But you know what didn't get him fired, Ben? The time back in 2021 when the same gentleman was filmed doing a fascist salute. Enchanting Duque Duque in honor of the late fascist Italian leader Benito Mussolini at a soccer game. So, I don't know. Cancer culture giveth and taketh away.

[Ben Rhodes]

First of all, kind of remarkable that you found that in the August pages of the Atlantic.

[Tommy Vitor]

The athletic.

[Ben Rhodes]

Oh, thank God. Okay, I thought you said the Atlantic. I was like, the athletic. Okay, that's better. I mean, they might do cock covers.

[Tommy Vitor]

They're growing a lot.

[Ben Rhodes]

Like, you know, is. Is Elliot Cohen branching out in his writing Radio Free Tom, you know, on the Falconer beat the. Look, I will say I thought Trump was going to fix this. I mean, like, he's not delivering, right?

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, where's the free speech?

[Ben Rhodes]

Where's the free fucking speech? Like, we heard yesterday that free speech is back. Cancel culture is over. You know, obsessions with gender and, you know, so you know what? We're 24 hours in the Trump administration. And so long as this guy is canceled, it just feels like Trump did not bring the change he promised, you know.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, let this guy, you know, hang some prosthetic something out there for whatever it is for display. This guy's this eagle is named Olympia. They play at the Stadio Olympico. He's also a big fan of the Vox party, the far right party in Spain. So this guy's out. Terrible guy.

[Ben Rhodes]

Just keeps getting less sympathetic with with each piece of information. But I, I, I, I will say that the whole thing has RFK Jr vibes. You know, from the falconing to the I. Well, is that, is that I was going to say something about like New age medicine, but I guess a a prosthetic penis that follows your command structures something different. I don't really know what category to put that in.

[Tommy Vitor]

This is the first I heard of that being a thing. One can apparently it's a thing. Anyway, good luck to our friends in Italy. Okay, we are going to take a quick break. When you come back though, you'll hear Ben's interview with Sam Rose, the acting Director of UNRES affairs in Gaza. Please stick around for that. It will be a much more thoughtful, serious conversation than the one we just had for the last five minutes.

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[Ben Rhodes]

Okay, so I'm very pleased to be joined by Sam Rose, who is the acting director of UNRWA affairs in Gaza. Welcome to Podcast of the World, Sam.

[Sam Rose]

Thanks a lot, Ben. Great to have me on.

[Ben Rhodes]

Let's just start. Let me just ask you, you've been in Gaza for the last year and worked there for a long time, but what is the mood there since the announcement of this ceasefire agreement? How are things on the ground there in terms of the mood of the people?

[Sam Rose]

Yeah, look, I mean, the mood is complex. I mean, I speak to a lot of people, we've got a lot of staff and I can't speak for everyone, but I mean, what was really noticeable the first day? So what was that? Where I think we're Monday today. Are we Monday, Tuesday today? So on, on Sunday when the ceasefire came into effect, there was this immediate sense of relief and, and release people, you know, sounds of kind of normal sounds on, well, normal sounds on the street. The bombs drop silent, the drones drop silent. Children were out playing. That was the kind of the most noticeable sound on, on Sunday. A sound that you'd not really heard at all. I mean, you hear it momentarily. But parents were very, you know, kind of anxious and apprehensive about having the children out of their sight. So families stuck together and families stayed indoors because of the constant threat of bombardment and attacks that, that vanished almost immediately. So people were quite kind of there. Was there was release and there was relief. People could breathe. Somebody told me they just wanted to go into a room for two days, have some privacy and cry. But you know, people were feeling something that they'd not felt for 16 months or let's say until since November 2023 when the first ceasefire came in into effect. The crossing point between north and south Gaza is still not, not open. So people, you know, a quarter of a million people have fled south. They've not been able to go home yet. But what we have had in the past couple of days is people have, in the south and in the central parts of Gaza have been able to go back to, to their home. So as, as the kind of initial euphoria has subsided, you know, it's been replaced a bit with, with, I guess, kind of trepidation and just kind of a, I don't know a, how best to put it, a kind of gaping hole in people's stomach as they realize and they start coming to terms with the enormity of what, what's happened to them. Even when the ceasefire hit, people were, had this mix of fear, hope and trepidation. But what we've seen from people the last couple of days is, you know, people are a bit more downhearted. They've gone home, they've had confirmed with their own eyes that their home is no longer there. Some people have retrieved bodies from, from the rubble of their homes. And it's just starting to dawn on everyone, on just, you know, how bad things were, these kind of emotions that people kept bustled up inside compartmentalized in part of their brain because they were just focused on the day to day business of survival and certainly our stuff working, blocking out what was inside, they're now, you know, starting to kind of come to terms with that and it's going to be a long and difficult process.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I, I mean, I truly can't imagine. I mean, speaking of the needs, UNRA has obviously been, you know, one of the only lifelines to the Palestinian people in Gaza. The ceasefire agreement called for 600 trucks of aid to get in a day. What are you focused on right now as an organization? Like what? Because I can't even get my mind around the scale of the challenges. What is most needed to get in for the people of Gaza and what is UNRE doing to help facilitate that?

[Sam Rose]

I mean, absolutely, this, as you'll know from the start of the war, this, one of the main narratives of this conflict has been about trucks and about supplies getting, getting in. It's not ideal because it dehumanizes the people, but it's the fact that it's been incredibly difficult to get those supplies in. So, yeah, day three is, is, is far. And the numbers that we're meeting those targets, that is the target of trucks entering from Israel into the crossing points inside Gaza, whether that be in the south or in the north. What we're actually bringing into Gaza and distributing is something slightly different. But regardless, there's large volumes of aid that are coming in, and that's great because we've not seen that for several months. But what's coming in right now are essentially supplies that have been outside Gaza for several months because the crossing points were so, so choked, they were so constrained by a mixture of things that there was just a large, large backlog of things outside what we're focused. And the bulk of that, it's food, it's flour to get bakeries running, it's food parcels that we ordered for populations on the verge of famine, and it's basic shelter items. So in the humanitarian toolkit, we bring in mattresses, we bring in blankets, we bring, bring in tarpaulins, plastic sheets, things of that nature. So this is critical to get this in and get it out in large volumes, just to take the edge off thing because people haven't had food, you know, on the verge of starvation, people are living in the most squalid and appalling of shelter conditions. But a lot more needs to be done beyond that initial phase. And as unwra, we would look initially to rehabilitate and repair our critical infrastructure so that alongside provision of basic humanitarian aid, we're also able to, to resume some of our basic services. Now everything is made more complicated by, well, by, firstly by the situation facing unwra. Maybe that's something we'll come to in, in a bit, but by the kind of prerequisites to, to, to safe delivery of aid right now in Gaza. And, and two things come to mind in relation to that. One is what we do about all the unexploded bombs and the munitions. I mean, it's been an incredibly intense bombardment for 15, 16 months across most of Gaza. So people who, returning to their homes, their buildings, there's lots of ordinance there and we're not yet in a position to safely take that ordinance away. It has to be done through the national authorities, but we do lots of raising awareness, mine risk education, education on explosive remnants of war things, things like that. It's sadly been a part of what we've been teaching kids in Gaza since 2008, 2009. So since then we've had a cycle of what, five, five, five conflicts. So it's something that we have in hand. We have it in Arabic, we have the multimedia capability to get the message out. UNWRA we've got over 10,000, 12,000 staff. So we've got staff on the ground who can disseminate those, those messages. So a key thing that we need to do to, as a prerequisite to, you know, for aid and safe returns is, is that, that, that awareness raising. We also need to keep track of where people are and where people are moving to because a lot of the aid operation in Gaza has been focused in Mewasi on the west, on the coast. And that's where the services have been, you know, structured around at least the kind of temporary humanitarian services, aid trucking, water trucking, things like that. As people move back, we have to support them where they're, where they're going back to. As unra, we have, you know, boreholes in refugee camps that we can restore. We have wells in our shelters that we can also restore. I mean, restoration of water is critical to get people to return, but people won't be returning in permanently in large numbers. Right now that requires a massive effort in terms of rubble removal, in terms of, like I say, the removal of the ordnance and the munitions and things like that. So it is going to be a gradual, long term process.

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, yeah, you mentioned a lot there about shelter. I mean, you know, the imagery that we're seeing, which you're obviously seeing on the ground, but I mean, north Gaza looks like, you know, Hiroshima. I mean it, there's just, you know, no structures standing, it's just all rubble. I mean, where, where, where are people going to, to live? You know, how do you even think about the scale of the short term housing needs versus the kind of obviously longer term reconstruction effort? If assuming peace holds, just what is the sense of, of how, I mean, do you have any sense of what, what percent of homes are left after, after this horrific bombardment?

[Sam Rose]

Yeah, I mean it is, the, the scale of it is, is vast. Northern Gaza has essentially been obliterated and the vast majority of homes and buildings have either been destroyed or badly, badly damaged. Now we face wars in Gaza before, but nothing, nothing like this where entire neighborhoods have been, have been wiped out and, and it is quite striking. You drive around northern Gaza or Gaza City and you know, amongst the rubble you will find a house or a, you know, that somehow remains standing or within a, a multi story building A room that has washing hanging outside so people are living, living in it. But even where these buildings are standing, people can't get to them because of all the rubble, all the, there's the stuff on the ground. Because Gaza was so overcrowded, I mean, Gaza City was quite high rise. That even for those buildings that, that remain standing for people physically and safely to, to kind of get there and come and go and for services to be restored is, is, is, is a massive task. And look what we're, what we're looking at is people being out of their homes for a long, long time. And there's, there's a number of things that, that, that, that we can do. We can, we can move from the kind of very temporary, very basic shelter which comprises tarpaulins, plastic sheets, basic mattresses and things like that to provide people with a bit more stability so that if they're out for some time, at least they are in somewhere that's a bit more comfortable. The problem that we've had in Gaza, one of the problems we've had over the past 16 months is that there have been these repeated cycles of displacement. We had people moving. You know, people have been displaced five or 10 times. They've been constantly taking with them these rotten plastic sheets and, and reinstalling them where they're, where they are. So for the people who are unable to go home, it's about making that, that shelter more, you know, more comfortable so that they can live in a bit of dignity in conditions that are fit for, for, for humans to, to live in, recognizing that they're likely to be there for, for quite some time. But what we will also see is people, you know, if people's houses have been burned or damaged, there may be one or two rooms that still remain standing. So, and people here, it's an extended family community. So typically the, the, the, the, the, the father of the household will live on the ground floor. When his children get married, his sons get married, they would build an extra story on, on top. So there's kind of multiple generations of the same family living in, in the same building quite a lot. And there may be one or two rooms that are fit for, for habitation. So what people will do, or what we assume they will do is that they will start from there. There'll be lots of people living in one or two rooms and families will just start to rebuild themselves bit by bit. A room here, a room there, putting windows back in, etc, I mean, people aren't going to do that right now, given the Uncertainty over the, the ceasefire prospects and given the lack of basic materials on, on the ground. Because we're bringing aid in right now, we're not bringing in life supplies for reconstruction and we need, you know, equipment we need, we need tractors, we need bulldozers, we need, we need all these things. And the other bit I would say is that right now there are a couple of hundred thousand people sheltering in unreal schools. I mean we, we have 300 schools in Gaza in about 200 school buildings and close to 100 of them are functioning as emergency shelters. And right now we've got a couple of hundred thousand people living in, in those shelters. Again, some of those people will be able to move out and move back home, but we can anticipate that there'll be a lot of people that, that need to remain for, for a long time because they've not got anywhere else to go. And, and the challenge with Gaza is on, yeah, on the one hand you've got all this rubble that needs to be removed and some of the estimates run into years in terms of how long that that's going to take, but in general that there isn't much space. It's a very, very overcrowded piece of, of land. So the idea that you can kind of decant people out of one structure, move them, move them somewhere else is, is, is, is not feasible because the land simply isn't available. So some of the high level thinking has gone into this, but not, not all the lower level thinking yet because it requires a complete urban regeneration. It requires working at community level to understand with families with notables what is going to be acceptable to them. And all this can really only happen when there's a functioning governance structure in place to kind of oversee that redesign.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, well, I mean looming over this is the fact that Israel has passed a ban on UNRWA that is supposed to begin in a week or two, I think. And I mean you've already alluded to how deeply embedded you are in the society. I mean, hundreds of schools sheltering hundreds of thousands of people, getting food to people over 10,000 employees. What happens when this ban goes into effect? I mean, how are you, what does that mean for you? How are you preparing for it? And what would it mean for the people of Gaza if it went forward?

[Sam Rose]

Yeah, we don't know precisely what it will mean. The ban covers our, our activities in the occupied Palestinian territory and, and what it, what it prohibits is UNRWA's activities on the sovereigns territory of, of Israel number one. And number two prohibits interaction and engagement between UNRWA and, and Israeli officials. Now, Gaza isn't the sovereign territory of, of Israel, but we come and go through Israeli borders, we bring our supplies in through Israeli borders. When the comp, when there's a conflict, we coordinate and notify Israel of all our movements and we engage with them when there are critical incidents, if staff are stuck in certain locations. So if the bills come in and are implemented to full effect at the end of this month, it makes it incredibly difficult for UNWRA to keep operating in Gaza. Our international staff, myself included, wouldn't be able to come and go, you know, interpreted to the letter of the law, we wouldn't be able to bring supplies in and others wouldn't be able to do that on our behalf. And this would be, you know, catastrophic at any moment in time, given how central UNRWA is as a mechanism for delivery of aid and provision of basic services. But right now it's catastrophic for the entire population of Gaza. This now with the ceasefire in effect, it isn't about unrwa. This is about the humanity and the values that we stand for as a humanitarian community in terms of meeting the needs of the population of Gaza. If you rip out unra, then you rip out the, the largest single actor with the wherewithal and the capability to, to do that, we work with others. There's a very strong, a very vibrant humanitarian sector here. We work closely, we work in partnership with UN agencies, NGOs, civil society, etc. We're not alone, but we are a singular entity that, that, that, that doesn't exist in other parts of the world. There's an instrument that the international community has at its disposal that covers half the response. You know, 13,000 staff we have in, in Gaza, the rest of the, the aid community, we're looking at, you know, a few, a few hundred, half the food we provide, two thirds of the primary health care we provide, you know, 85% of children in Gaza have received some kind of psychosocial support and mental health care from unwra. We vaccinated a quarter of a million children against polio in 2024. And right now we've got a ceasefire that is already fragile. We accept that given the complexities and given the savagery of what happened on October 7 and since then it's already fragile. But if you take out the largest single actor capable of supporting and delivering on the response, you make it close to impossible. You send a message to the people of Gaza that whilst there are humanitarian commitments linked to the Ceasefire, we're abandoning them, they are being abandoned. And what signal that will send for the stability of, of the situation here, the shock, the trauma, the grief it will cause, but it also risks having more regional impact. So for the sake of the ceasefire, it's absolutely catastrophic that this is happening and that this is happening now. And we're trying everything within our means to, to halt it. But we're a UN agency, we're, we can only work through the member states. So we're calling on member states to do everything that they, that they can to make sure that we are not ripped out of here at the end of the month. Because it's a situation that absolutely no one wants and no one needs.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, no, it's, it's kind of boundless cruelty. I don't know how to even get my mind right. I mean how many, do you have any sense of how many UNRWA employees have been killed in the, in the last year and a half?

[Sam Rose]

Yeah, I mean it's 250, 260. I don't have the exact number today. I believe it's somewhere over 200, 260 personnel that we've lost now since the 7th of of October. And it's colleagues that, that we know, colleagues that we, we work with, you know, just going about their, their business just in the wrong place at the wrong time, you know, on the road, in their home, whatever the nature of the conflict is such, that it's such a built up overcrowded area in, in and you know, and you know, placing overcrowded, placing guards that the, the munitions that are being used. It's inevitable that large numbers of people are, are going to be killed. And, and it's not just staff who've been killed, it's their family members as, as well. I mean every single person here has suffered immeasurably in ways that we can only begin to compre. We drive around when we see the photos, we see the drone footage, etc, the depth of the destruction of, you know, physical structures but also of people and communities is really, really hard to, to get your head around and quite shocking.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, well, last question I wanted to ask you is, you know, you've been in and you've been working in Gaza for a long time, in and out. Obviously that, that's part of your vocation as a humanitarian worker, but also presumably because you care obviously about the people there and there's so much dehumanizing rhetoric whether it's obviously the way in which people in not just Israel, but in the United States kind of cast everybody's a terrorist or everybody's Hamas or even people that are, well meaning. It's always, as you pointed out earlier, it's numbers, right? It's X number of people have died or X number of trucks are getting in. What would you want people to know about the human beings that you clearly know so well in Gaza and what they've been through? I know that's kind of an open ended question, but that's kind of, I wanted to leave it to you. What is the world not seeing here about the humanity of the people that have just been through something that, that, that, you know, is beyond belief, really.

[Sam Rose]

Yeah, no, it is beyond belief. And people of Gaza have been through a lot before this, but this is on a completely different level. And you know, we want to say that they're normal people. I mean, what they've gone through is, is completely abnormal and what's become normal is completely unacceptable and, and, and abnormal. But the, you know, people here want what we want. Most people here are children. Half the population, let's say, is under 18. You know, course for the population under 10. The colleagues that I know, the people that I work with, they want what everyone else wants. They want safety for their family. They want to be able to go to sleep at night and not worry about what's going to happen to them. They want to watch the latest football teams and have a laugh and they want, want to be able to look to a future that, that isn't measured in am I going to get a liter of water today? Am I going to get a bag of flour today? But is, is, is what everyone else wants and they want to understand why this is happening to them. They've, there's nothing they can do about the situation that they're in. And we got people here that have just seen the world watching this constantly for the last 16 months and not been able or willing to do anything about it. But people here want the same that we want. They, they want to, I mean, they're very family oriented here. It's a close knit community. People stay where, where they are. A lot of them are refugees, so they have contacts in diasporas around the world. But people have pretty modest expectations here. But they want to work, they want to do well, they want to be educated, they want safety, they want freedom and quite frankly, they want to go to the beach and they want to have a swim and they want to put on clean clothes and they want to laugh and they want to cry and they want to have everything that's, that's normal, that all of us expect and they don't want to be treated differently. And they see right now the fact. Why is it that these human rights that we talk about, I talk about as a, as a humanitarian. Why is it that they don't apply to them? They just want to live a normal life. They want a quiet life. They want all of this to go away. The worry is right now that a lot of people will just want to leave, right? They, they see that the future here is so difficult in terms of how long it's going to take to rebuild this place. So if you're a parent with children in school, when are your kids going to get back to school? If you're an 18 year old that wants to get a university education, what are the prospects for you getting that university education in, in, in Gaza, given that the entire tertiary education sector has been wiped out? So, yeah, people have kind of modest ambitions. They work hard, they're diligent, they are respectful. They have the same problems that we all have, but they just want a normal life. Nothing special. Just, you know.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, well, that should not be asking too much. Well, look, thank you so much for what you do, for what everybody at UNWRA's doing and everybody listening who, you know, wants to, whatever influence you have. This would be a disaster to lose UNRA right now. So people should support its, its work. Sam Rose, thank you so much for joining us.

[Sam Rose]

Thanks a lot, Ben. All the best.

[Tommy Vitor]

Thanks again to Sam Rose for doing the show and look forward to seeing you back in studio next week where it will be warmer.

[Ben Rhodes]

Here we are, second Trump term. I'm ready to make some content with you, Tommy.

[Tommy Vitor]

Giddy up.

[Ben Rhodes]

All right, see you. Stay warm.

[Tommy Vitor]

Thanks, buddy.

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[Tommy Vitor]

Consider dropping a review.

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Pod Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Alona Minkowski. Our associate producer is Michael Goldsmith. Our executive producers are me, Tommy V. Mentor and Ben Rhodes. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick and engineered by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Phoebe Bradford, William Jones, Kiril Palaviv, and Molly Lobel, who upload our episodes and videos to YouTube.com podsavetheworld our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America.

[Tommy Vitor]

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