C (2:35)

I forget what others are still chief archivist.

A (2:37)

He's, I guess, planning a regime change operation in Venezuela, according to the New York Times. We'll dig into that. It's exciting. Uh, there's a report about how China is trying to roll back U.S. support for Taiwan. So quick updates out of Madagascar in France, and then the international comedy event that everyone is talking about. Ben. Hilarious event. And then we're going to end with some laughs of our own thanks to Trump and the President of Turkey. Also, for our friend of the Pod subscribers, we're going to answer some questions from our discord at the end of the show, so stick around for that. And then, Ben, you just did our interview.

C (3:06)

Yeah. I talked to Rula Jibril, who's been on before, but not in a while. We talked about Trump's plan for Gaza, how it completely excluded Palestinians, but we also talked about, like, what's going on in the west bank. You know, rule is obviously Palestinian from Israel. And we talked about the Arab world and the kind of support or not support that they're providing the Palestinians, Europeans, what people can be doing who are frustrated that their governments aren't in line with public opinion. So we kind of COVID the waterfront here. It's a very good conversation.

A (3:38)

Excellent. And she is a very, very engaging, smart person.

C (3:41)

Rula comes in. I mean, she kind of comes in and starts. Starts shooting threes, you know?

A (3:45)

Yeah.

C (3:45)

Like, I mean, it's just interesting.

A (3:47)

Steph Curry on the pods.

C (3:48)

Exactly.

A (3:48)

Okay, well, I'm excited to hear that. All right, so we had not planned on leading with this weird military event. The, like, Hegseth, Secretary of Defense beat Hegseth. It was his bizarre in person meeting. It was supposed to be with him and more than 800 of the US military's top leadership. Um, but then Trump got added to the docket, and we watched Hexeth and Trump's speeches, and the whole thing was just more bizarre and worrisome than I think either of us had expected. And remember, these guys were all summoned on short notice from around the world to get to, I think, Marine Base Quantico in Virginia. They got no explanation for why. They were just, like, flying from Korea or wherever you are, like Centcom or Whatever. I mean, that alone probably cost like tens of millions of dollars. Just remember, yes, if you're a four star, you travel with some serious infrastructure and a lot of people around you and on a plane. But anyway, so.

C (4:37)

And also, like, what. What are they leaving behind?

A (4:39)

Right?

C (4:39)

Like who's man in the store, you know, at all these places?

A (4:42)

But anyway, right, yeah, the Chinese military didn't go away. The the substance of of Hegseth's speech could have been an email. More on that in a minute. But let's just start with what Trump said. So we're going to divide this kind of rambling mess of a speech into two buckets. The first bucket is like scary fascistic comments. And bucket two is kind of just bizarre inappropriate political commentary. Let's start with a sampling of the. The fashy bit.

B (5:05)

Last month I signed an executive order to provide training for quick Reaction Force that can help quell civil disturbances. This is going to be a big thing for the people in this room because it's the enemy from within. We're under invasion from within. No different than a foreign enemy. At least when they're wearing a uniform, you can take them out. These people don't have uniforms. And I told Pete we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military National Guard. But military, I say they spit, we hit. Is that okay? I think so.

A (5:46)

So I hope it goes without saying that the US Military should not use American cities as, quote, training grounds for our military, nor should the US Military be part of a, quote, quick reaction force to quell American protests. That last bit there where he's like this, you spit, we hit. That was an anecdote about a woman getting in the face of some service member and spitting on that service member, which is obviously something I wouldn't do or support. But I also think it's way worse to tell the military that they can then beat that woman. He also talks about how the invasion from within. So, Ben, just given the audience, I think I found this to be one of the most unsettling Trump speeches I've ever seen.

C (6:28)

Yeah, this is like a 10 out of 10 on the blinking red light. Fascies.

A (6:35)

Yeah, we allowed to say that.

C (6:36)

Maybe we say fascist.

A (6:36)

J.D. van's gonna call us dipshit.

C (6:38)

Maybe that's a better way of putting it. I will say it's interesting, like in the Trump news diet where every now and then there's something that pops up and you're kind of like, it's not the biggest story of the day. But you kind of do a double take. And this happened for, I think, both of us when the first Washington Post alert went up, like, I think, I don't know, a week or two ago, saying that Hegseth was calling back all these general officers, which is again, it's like 800 people.

A (7:01)

Yeah. Grade 07 through 00:10.

C (7:02)

I remember being like, that doesn't seem good. You know, and beyond how bizarre and unprecedented and unusual it is, in part, cuz there was no explanation why. And I think we all anticipated Hegseth giving this kind of performative bullshit speech that he did today, which we can get to. But I think the reason I was unsettled when I first saw it is I was probably afraid that this would happen, you know, because one of my fears from the beginning has been if you look at the authoritarian playbook like Trump is running, all the plays, you know, about the media, about the opposition, about the law firms, about the universities, about dissent, but really the absolute last third rail, the absolute scariest thing is when the US Military, the most powerful institution in the world, is suddenly introduced to this. Now, we've all talked about how the first time around, they basically didn't go along with any of this bullshit. And that's why he hates General Milley, who is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

A (7:55)

Attacked by Pete Hegseth, by the way.

C (7:57)

Yeah. And the general officers in general kind of seemed to nod and just keep being. Not that they weren't following orders, but they just didn't go along with this kind of weird bullshit. What is scary about this speech is he's not just kind of performing fascism. He's telling them, enemy within, there's an invasion within, like quick reaction force to use against Americans. Spit they hit. These are deeply fascistic ideas, and they're not new ideas. The idea that there's an enemy within, the idea that the military needs to be deployed against that enemy within. This kind of conspiratorial reference to people not being in uniforms. Right. This is the scariest possible stuff. Because if Trump gets what he wants, it seems like he's telling us. It's not like I'm surmising this. He's telling us what he wants is the United States military in the streets of this country in the same way that they were patrolling the streets of Iraq or Afghanistan in the war on terror. It is fully bringing the infrastructure of the war on terror home to the United States. And the question that a lot of things hang on, probably whether it's civil conflict or potential dictatorship, just to skip ahead here is whether he can get the military there fast enough to do that. You know, can they basically kind of purge enough generals, put enough of their people in place, drive or make uncomfortable so many people that they leave the military who won't do certain things and then recruit people who will do certain things? And that feels to me like a lot is riding on that. I was a little worried, Tommy, today, too, that, like, were they watching everybody's face to see who might look uncomfortable? I mean, I actually thought maybe this was a test, you know, who, if anybody voices objection to this after they're probably fired. Right. And so there was this kind of. Because the military doesn't applaud, and Trump is used to rallies where people cheer for these lines. And it was silent, which was kind of powerful. But because it was silent, you don't know what those men and some women in that room are thinking as he's saying these things. I have to think, given my interactions with the military, that most of them were very uncomfortable.

A (10:12)

Also, a friend of mine sent me a photo that was of the crowd. And it's just. We'll get to Pete Hegseth's speech in a minute, but it's a big, long screed about DEI and diversity and getting away from it. And you look at this crowd and there's like 200 white men and, like five black men. And I don't think I clocked any women in the photo I just saw. So it's just, you know, it speaks to the problem. It's also been, you know, like, look, no one's. Everyone's sick of hearing about norms. But the other part of this speech that was just worth highlighting is how partisan it was, which is not normal and not okay. And it was rambling and bizarre. But the, like, the partisan nature of his comments should shock people. Here's another clip.

B (10:51)

We won every swing state. We won the popular vote. We won everything. We want everything. You have to take a look at the map. It's almost entirely red, except there's a little blue line on each coast. And I think that's going to disappear, too. We did really great. And part of it is because of our success with the military, the rebuilding of the military. And they were the vicious people, you know, that we have to fight, just like you have to fight vicious people. Mine are different, a different kind of vicious. They did not treat you with respect. They're Democrats. They never do.

A (11:23)

So the military is supposed to be apolitical and just for those who don't Remember the before times. I'm not surprised by his comments. We, I think a few months ago, Ben, we talked about a speech he gave in front of a bunch of service members where he got them to boo the press, for example. Um, but it's a terrible thing for the military, for the country, and this was just really beyond the pale. I mean, Trump kicked off the speech by telling these guys to clap for him if they want, which is inappropriate. They're supposed to just be silent. He told a bunch of service members who served in Afghanistan that D.C. was more dangerous than Afghanistan. I bet they disagree with that. He mocked Joe Biden repeatedly by name. You just heard this weird rant about swing states and the popular vote. Uh, he whined about not getting the Nobel Prize. The Gulf of America made an appearance. He attacked the governor of Illinois as a Democrat. He attacked cities run by other Democrats. Again, that, like, I hate, like, hearkening back to the early resistance days like that this is not normal stuff. But it is not, and it is fact, quite frightening to talk about Democrats as your enemy in front of the military leadership.

C (12:29)

Yes. And again, this is not just a normal Trump breaking norms. Like, this is the biggest deal, Right. Because of the power of the military. And look first, how insulting it is. Right? I mean, some of those people, or most of those people, fought in Afghanistan. And to compare walking down the street of Washington to, like, patrolling streets where these guys had their friends killed.

A (12:57)

And I tweeted that, and some idiot fundraiser for Trump replied to me with, like, stats on homicide versus US Casualties over the last decade in Afghanistan versus DC And I was like, ma', am, do you think that people are riding around in Humvees with body armors and machine guns in D.C. like, what is this comparison? I saw that you are a moron.

C (13:16)

And by the way, what that person also left out is a tens and tens of thousands of Afghans who were killed. Exactly right. So let's. If we were counting up violence, like, let's count that too. But putting aside how offensive it is to these people, some of whom are from the blue states, some of whom, you know, have kids who may vote Democrat, who Trump is calling the enemy within, like, all that, or who just.

A (13:34)

Don'T hate their neighbors or just don't.

C (13:35)

Hate their neighbors, civilian control of an apolitical military is the ultimate guarantor of democracy. Once there is no civilian control of an apolitical military, the military is an extension of the political interest of the quote, unquote leader. And you really don't have A democracy.

A (13:53)

Yeah.

C (13:53)

Because if the military is sent to quell, you know, opposition to Trump, if it is sent to intimidate people in blue cities and blue states, if it is used to aggrandize Trump, all of this 250 year experiment is fucking out the window. It really is. Cuz like that you set up all these guardrails and all the checks and balances and other things that we're nervous about, those are basically meant to put in place protections against military dictatorship.

A (14:21)

This is literally the founding father's worst nightmare.

C (14:23)

This is the ball game. That's right. This is the actual ball game. It's not Jimmy Kim. Those things are important, but it's not Jimmy Kimmel. And it's not even ICE raids, even though that's kind of bleeding into the space. Cuz it's kind of like militarized violence. It is saying, I want a country in which ICE is my domestic police force and the US military is my military force. I, Donald Trump, have a monopoly on violence in this country, not the US government, and that's game over.

A (14:50)

And you swear an oath to me, not the Constitution.

C (14:51)

You swear an oath to me, you're loyal to me, not to the Constitution. Also, by the way, how do you get that back? Like if they purge generals and try to remake this MAGA military and we do survive this period, and there's a Democrat in charge, what kind of weird military is that Democrat gonna be inheriting? If all the generals were promoted on the basis that they believe the Democrats are the enemy within, what's gonna happen when there's a commander in chief who's a Democrat again? So this is not a sideshow, this is actually the main event.

A (15:17)

Yeah. And you better believe that kind of purge is happening. Hegseth even talks about it. So. All right, so finally, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth spoke. Dan Kaine, the Chairman of Joint Chiefs spoke. Honestly, I didn't. I think he's more reasonable person. I think Hegseth was the one to watch because he called this meeting in the first place. Trump was the late addition. So we'll play you a clip in a minute. But my, my big takeaway, Ben, was Pete Hegseth wants to run for president. He might start by running for Senate and Tennessee or something else, but this was an entirely political performance. He treated it like, like a political candidate or a TED Talk. Right. He had a podium, he started there, then he dramatically walked out from behind it and with a lav mic paced up and down the stage in this kind of oprah fashion, very polished, very pract. Substantively, this speech was a long attack on any effort to diversify the military and bragging about rolling it all back. He specifically attacked, quote, woke garbage and announced standards that will likely exclude women from certain roles. He seems very mad that senior leaders at the military aren't working out enough and aren't in good enough shape. He was mad about people having beards or not trimmed hair. It was all just odd. Let's listen to a clip from Mr. Hegseth.

C (16:29)

If women can make it, excellent. If not, it is what it is. If that means no women qualify for some combat jobs, so be it. It's tiring to look out at combat formations or really any formation and see fat troops. Likewise, it's completely unacceptable to see fat generals and admirals in the halls of the Pentagon. We also don't fight with stupid rules of engagement. We untie the hands of our war fighters to intimidate, demoralize, hunt and kill the enemies of our country. In other words, to our enemies.

A (17:03)

F A F. Oh, I wonder how he feels about fat commander.

C (17:11)

How many times even he practiced that in the mirror?

A (17:12)

A thousand. Yeah. Not yeah. Anyway, very in shape, healthy. Donald Trump watched that and nodded along. So I watched the whole thing. Again, the substance of it, it truly was the definition of this could have been an email, but it just seemed like his moment to kind of show off.

C (17:26)

There could have been like a Fox and Friends Sunday diatribe. Look, substantively, the stuff he's saying there, for instance, about rules of engagement should be terrifying to people. Rules of engagement. What he's getting at there is do you try to avoid civilian casualties and.

A (17:40)

Can you get away with war crimes?

C (17:42)

Can you get away with war crimes? He's basically like, you know, kind of turn, we're gonna be the IDF now, I guess. There are no rules of engagement. There are no burdensome restrictions on taking a shot. If there are potentially civilians here, that is scary. But beyond that, this performative bullshit about anti woke stuff, anti dei, I mean, yes, he is trying to turn the military into more of just the white man center. He doesn't want women in combat, clearly doesn't want minorities, any kind of positions of responsibility because he keeps firing them. So there's this pretty scary white nationalist agenda that seems to undergird a lot of this stuff. A lot of it is like political performance. It's also just how do you think it is for a general Pete Hegseth, like less than 15 years ago, was a captain in the Army National Guard and Now here he is lecturing a bunch of generals who've been in the military for probably 30 years, who are much more. And look, I'm all for civilian control, but this guy didn't earn his stripes here exactly.

A (18:38)

But. Right. He has no policy expertise. I mean, I'm sure they respect his service, but he's telling a bunch of people who spent 30, 40 years in the US military that now they really need to remember that their job is killing people. These guys are well aware of the role of the US Military. They've been executing on that mission since its inception.

C (18:56)

And killing people is not like something to celebrate. And one last thing on this is like lectures on personal responsibility from Pete Hegseth. I mean like a world famous notorious boozer losing control of himself is suddenly now like the avatar for like, you know, personal discipline and responsibility.

A (19:15)

Right? Yeah. These are like senior military members who get thrown out if they were drunk on the job or if they had an affair or a child out of wedlock. All of which, you know, all behaviors Pete has modeled. Positive the world is brought to you by Mack Weldon. It's fall, everybody. You know that. It means it's getting a little cooler out. There's outdoor gatherings, there's coming holidays, more time to see your friends and family and you know what else you can do. Get some new fall essentials. Mack Weldon's got all the essentials for fall. Comfortable, easy to layer clothes designed for cooler days and timeless style. Their new Ace line, inspired by their best selling sweatpants, combines everyday comfort with long lasting and confident looks. Explore new hoodies, half zips, sweats, crew necks and more@mackwelden.com and get 20% off your first order of $125 or more with the code world. I'm looking at the website right now. They got some great looking sweatshirts. Ooh, I need some new sweatpants. Some nice crew knit shirts. They got a lot of good stuff. A lot of comfy stuff for fall. They got tops, bottoms, underwear, accessories, collections, everything you could ask for and more. Just go to the website. Mack Weldon balances classic pieces and updated details to keep you looking sharp. They're not flashy, just classic, always in style and made from the world's most comfortable performance materials. Easy to style and versatile looks that you don't have to think about. Mack Weldon is effortless by design with the Ace line. Ease and self assurance has never been more comfortable. Get lost in comfort with our half zips, pullover hoodies, bomber jackets and crew necks. Mack Weldon clothes are designed to fit your style and the demands of modern life. They look like regular clothes, but feel like the latest in modern comfort. For over 10 years, Mack Welton has designed timeless, innovative Benswear to help you move through the day with confidence, even if you're just hanging in your underwear. Fall into comfort with Mack Weldon's Ace collection. Go to mackweldon.com and get 20% off your first order of $125 or more with the promo code world. That's N A C-K-W-E-L--O-N.com promo code world.

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A (21:48)

Okay, so that was that really fun addition to the show. The main event before that little speech series of speeches was Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu was back at the White House on Monday for his fourth visit this year alone. That's crazy. It came after a few days in New York where Netanyahu delivered a typically defiant speech at the UN as there was a mass walkout of the UN General assembly, which once again demonstrated how isolated Israel is after Netanyahu has dragged out two years of war in Gaza. The big announcement on Monday, though, at the White house was the US and Israel saying they'd agreed to Trump's 20 point plan to end the war. Here's a clip from their joint press conference.

B (22:28)

In addition to negotiating the Abraham Accord, I like to say that way because the real people, that's what they call Abraham. We had big, strong talk. Nobody's been better to Israel. No president's been better to Israel than Donald Trump. But we had a long, strong talk, Bibi and I, and he understands it's time. And you know what? Many countries have gained great respect for Israel for the way they fight for the job they do, including me. If Hamas rejects the deal, which is always possible, they're the only one left. Everyone else has accepted it, but I have a feeling that we're going to have a positive answer. But if not, as you know, Bibi you'd have our full backing to do what you would have to do.

A (23:17)

This can be done the easy way.

C (23:20)

Or it can be done the hard way, but it will be done.

A (23:24)

Brendan Carr I think it maybe is.

B (23:26)

Not really appropriate to take questions. We probably shouldn't take questions. Or would you like to take a question or two from perhaps a friendly Israeli reporter if there's such a thing.

A (23:36)

Nice of Netanyahu to quote FCC Chairman Brendan Carr talking about JBC before. I mean I can't remember the last time that Trump has made an announcement and not taking questions. But before we get to that, a few quick highlights from the plan itself. So if the two sides agree, Israel and Hamas, the fighting immediately stops, the IDF withdraws to some predetermined lines and Hamas has 72 hours to release all the hostages, both dead and alive. Hamas under this plan, like basically has to cease to exist. They disarm, they de radicalize, they have no role in a future government. No Gazans will be forced to leave. Israel will not occupy or annex Gaza. Under this plan, Gaza will have a temporary transitional governance that's overseen by the Board of Peace which is chaired by Trump and includes Tony Blair for some reason. So there's 20 points. Steps 19 and 20 can like barely flick at the idea of a Palestinian state saying basically if Palestinians jump through a bunch of hoops, quote, conditions may finally be in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self determination.

C (24:34)

So many caveats.

A (24:35)

Yes. Otherwise if you jump through all these pathway, we'll set up some more hoops for you. As they were saying, the most important part of the speech was what you heard Trump say there at the end, which is that Hamas, if they don't agree to this plan, the gloves are off. And I kind of shudder to imagine what that means. Compared to what given what we've seen so far. The good news in the plan, Ben, is that this ethnic cleansing proposal Trump had floated several months ago is now gone. The bad news is that again, Palestinian statehood or self determination was a complete and total afterthought. So Ben, my takeaway from watching the event yesterday was there's a couple of decent parts to the proposal, but Netanyahu's comments seemed like they were designed to sound like an agreement in principle in the room without engaging on any of the details, which we know he likes to renegotiate after the fact, and that it was designed in such a way that they assume Hamas will never get to. Yes, mostly because Hamas has to disband and trust Netanyahu to execute on the rest of this plan and sort of give up all their leverage in the form of these hostages in the first 72 hours. The whole proposal wasn't even sent to Hamas until last night, until after they'd announced it. But now, I guess, you know, if Hamas says no, the US and Israel will say, well, like the onus is on them. Right. The world will blame Hamas in, in this setup. So I guess we'll see. You and I were kind of talking before we started recording. Like, I guess the question is, who's even speaking for Hamas at this point after Israel's taken out so many negotiators, But I guess we'll find out.

C (26:00)

Yeah, it feels like there are a couple things. Well, there's more than a couple things going on here. I mean, I don't doubt that Trump would like the killing to end in Gaza. Not cuz he has any empathy, but because like he wants to declare some great Nobel Prize victory. He is kind of tired of taking a lot of water on for Bibi, like every US President. And then I also don't doubt that Bibi is just looking for another thing to kind of give by some more time for him. Right. He constantly, whenever they're deep in a pariah corner, they try to appear reasonable. But as to your point, he is saying shit back home where he's winking at them and he's kind of like, see, we don't have to leave the Gaza Strip. And so look, best case scenario is, yeah, there's some agreement and they stop the killing and the hostages are returned and there's not a mass ethnic cleansing. But even in that scenario, which I, you know, count me as skeptical, but, you know, I'd be glad if it happened. I just don't believe that the Israelis will leave Gaza. And I don't either. They will find some other pretext. You know, they'll pocket the hostages, return, which again would be great, but then they'll find some other pretexts to kind of resume the cannibalization of Gaza, the.

A (27:10)

Killing of some security concern.

C (27:11)

Yeah, yeah. So like, even in the best case scenario, I'm doubtful that it actually sticks through 2.20 here.

A (27:18)

Oh, absolutely.

C (27:19)

We saw that first ceasefire, didn't get to phase two broke down. This is not getting to 20. Then. The second thing is this Tony Blair board of Peace is so fanciful and crazy and kushnery, you know, it's like magically there's just gonna bring in. Tony Blair did such a good job helping set up the provisional government in Iraq that we're gonna put him in charge in Gaza. It's comical that it's Tony Blair. It's kind of a finger in the eye to most of global public opinion that wrote off Tony Blair for a long time. He's this kind of guy who's full, floated around and vacuumed up a bunch of money in the Gulf. He's close to Bibi, like this is not a neutral party. And then that leads me to the third thing is the utter absence of Palestinian participation. We talked to Tyrull about this, but the one point I would make is if you were serious about an alternative Palestinian leadership to Hamas, why aren't there any Palestinians at the conversation? In fact, the only people on the Palestinian side who will see this proposal and get a vote on it is Hamas. And so they're basically setting up a dynamic where the only Palestinians who can say yes or no are Hamas. And so if Hamas says no, they can basically say, well, all Palestinians said no. So you got what you deserve.

A (28:24)

Collective punishment.

C (28:25)

I'm sure the Palestinian Authority would say yes to this in a heartbeat. I'm sure if you found a bunch of Palestinian technocrats from Gaza, they'd probably say yes to this. They're setting it up. So it's either they get what they want, cuz Hamas says no and they can say all Palestinians are Hamas and here we go, or they kind of pocket the short term benefits of the deal which trend towards Israel and then find some pretext to resume this. So count me as you know, sure, it's better. I hope it works for the short term, but count me is skeptical about this as a peace plan.

A (28:53)

Yeah, I want to talk a little more about the Kushner Tony Blair piece of this in a second because I too was bothered by it. I also wonder, like, there's. There are other extremist groups in Gaza. There's one called Palestinian Islamic Jihad. They reportedly had control of some of these hostages. Like there's some reports that they have already said no to this plan. Does that mean they're holding hostages? Is that going to blow up the whole deal? Can Hamas control them? We don't know that. That the other thing that happened Monday while Netanyahu was at the White House ban was Trump made Netanyahu call the prime minister of Qatar to apologize for bombing Doha. It's funny, funny to say it out loud and trying to kill Hamas leaders who are meeting to review a previous ceasefire proposal. Netanyahu admitted that Israel violated Qatar's sovereignty. Yeah, no shit. And that Israel. He said Israel will, quote, not conduct such an attack again in the future. He apologized for the death of a Qatari security guard who was killed. Remember, the Hamas leaders they were targeting were not killed. This, even, this just obviously necessary apology anchored Netanyahu's far right partners. The National Security minister, IT's Mar Ben Gvir said, said the attack was important, just and supremely moral, and that it is very good and that it happened because Qatar is a state that supports terrorism, funds terrorism and incites terrorism. So clear where he stands, I guess. Look, on balance, I guess it's good that Netanyahu made this call and kind of patch things up. But, like, I don't, I don't know how real it is. I mean, the fact that it happens sort of speaks to Israel's impunity.

C (30:16)

Yeah, I think what this shows is that, look, the Gulf was really enraged by this bombing of Doha. I mean, you think they should be enraged already by what's happening in Gaza. But. And they have been. But like this, we talked about how this kind of rattled the whole Gulf. And this is Trump doing his own policy. This is Trump trying to simultaneously maintain his barrag of Bibi and his gravy train in the Gulf. That's all that's happening here.

A (30:41)

Yep. Yep, that's right. Okay, so on this Tony Blair thing. So first of all, I'm just outraged at how Jared Kushner is just showing back up at these Middle east peace events and there is no coverage of his glaring conflicts of interest. Like, remember, like, he worked in the first Trump term. He was like the shadow Secretary of State. Now he's gone. He's not a government employee, as far as I know. But what Jared is doing is managing billions of dollars from the Saudis, from the Emiratis and from the Qataris in his investment firm, which in my view, in my opinion, looks like kickbacks for favors rendered in the first term. And then there's the Tony Blair piece that you mentioned. If folks don't know Tony Blair was the Prime Minister of the UK For a decade. Like, he, like, remade the Labour Party and won big elections in 97 and a decade of, you know, being in charge. His tenure, as you noted, like, is inextricably linked to George W. Bush and the Iraq War and the war on terror generally. And then after leaving number 10, he served as this kind of like, Middle east envoy for the Quartet for this series of powers. Then he worked at JPMorgan Chase. He started this thing called the Blair Institute, which gets a lot of Money from Oracle founder Larry Ellison. Very conservative. So Blair also made a bunch of money consulting. He has, I think, long standing, close ties with a lot of Gulf autocrats, I think the Qataris in particular, and Emirates. Yeah. And so his name has popped up a few times in the last two years. Like, there was the. His think tank was reportedly connected to Trump's original, like, Gaza Riviera ethnic cleansing plan. Then the, The. He's been linked to the Gaza Humanitarian Fund. In August, he was at this meeting at the White House about post war Gaza. The FT reported that Blair has been working on Gaza plans for over a year and sort of an individual capacity. I'm guessing he's just. I know he's friends with Netanyahu. I'm guessing he's also buddies with Kushner. Yeah, like, I don't know what to make. Like, look, it shows shockingly bad judgment in my view, to be associated with Trump and Netanyahu in this context. Like, I. It doesn't look good for the Labor Party either. I guess. Like, I'm trying to. I'm trying to rationalize why he would do this. I guess some of these guys just kind of like, can't resist being in the mix. But, like, what did you make of him wanting to pop up here?

C (32:52)

Yeah, I'm glad you did. The recitation, it reminds me that we have younger listeners and viewers who, like, may not have lived the whole Tony Blair trajectory. If you want to see how it started, go watch that movie the Queen. When he's like the newly elected reformer. He loves him and he's like, hello, new Labor. And then obviously Iraq unraveled all that. So we've talked about why it's a crazy move from the perspective of actually having legitimacy in terms of what's in for Tony Blair. But if you do follow this arc, by the time he is out, he has lost the UK public over Iraq and he certainly lost kind of the global. He was never left. His whole thing was center left. He pulled that party to the center. But he was still this pretty credible figure. And I remember him being involved in some of these quartet efforts. I will tell you, in the Obama years, whenever he became engaged in some track two way with Middle east peace discussions, it was always a thumb on the scale for the Israelis.

A (33:43)

Yes.

C (33:43)

Or it was always like, we could do some, like, development project in the west bank, you know, we could build some hotels. Like, it was. Didn't smell right. Like, let me just say, like, it seemed like there was some, you know, something, some other agenda Right. Cause then if you follow the trajectory, and there's been some great investigative journalism, this. He just started taking money from Central Asian autocrats, Gulf autocrats, like, there was just a gravy train. He's still on, like, the center left circuit, you know, so it's kind of weird. And he's still advising Keir Starmer, but once he gets out of the uk, his politics become very strongman. Real estate deal, like wit coffee, cushionary. And I think what you see for Tony Blair here is a convergence of two things like grift and being in the room. Somehow there's money to be made in this. It may not be direct money for the. Whatever board seat on the board of peace, but there might be some other golf deal or some other thing with Kushner. I don't know what the thing is. I'm not saying I know exactly, but I assume that there's some interest there. And then, yeah, I think these guys, some of them just can't exit the stage, you know, like, well, I'm still in the room with Trump and I'm still, like, in these conversations, and I can still have an opinion and I can take back to London about, like, what's going on in the Middle East. Like, at a certain point, it's not worth being in the room.

A (35:00)

This is where Obama could be a real role model just kind of dipping out.

C (35:03)

I will say, like, Obama gets a.

A (35:04)

Lot of shit push, too.

C (35:06)

Someday we'll talk about this. Like, you know, maybe I'll have to get more. But, like, this is actually the cautionary tale I know is that you're just chasing relevancy, you know, your old age.

A (35:15)

And on the Kushner piece, we all just know. This week we learned that the Saudi pif, the their sovereign wealth fund, is buying EA Sports for $55 billion. So this, the Saudi Arabia's public investment fund, they're partnering with Jared Kushner's little company and then a group called Silver Lake Partners, which is like, one of the biggest tech investor firms in the world. They have, I think, 110 billion under management and about 1200 staff. Jared Kushner has like 5 billion under management and 30 staff, and half of his money is Saudi money. So why is he part of this deal? Like, what does he bring to the table? He has no expertise. He's just reinvesting money the Saudis already gave him. Like, why is he there? According to the Financial Times, it's because it is believed that he could help Greece the process through the committee on Foreign investment in the US or cfius, which reviews these deals for national security reasons. Judd Legum at Popular Information did some great reporting on all of this, but there you go. It's just like all corruption and grift.

C (36:11)

And look, we tried. I'm going to give us some credit here, Tommy. Anybody who's gone on the journey of this podcast the last few years knows that we were pounding the drum on Jared Kushner and these back end payments of like $2 billion invested in his fund by the Saudis. The failure to make a bigger deal of that, I think by the media, by Democrats. I mean, some people like Capitol Hill.

A (36:33)

Yeah, yeah.

C (36:33)

But it kind of like grease the skids for now. Oh, it's just normal that there's like billions going here, billions going to the crypto business. Like Jared's got a piece of Wyckoff, hasn't divested yet.

A (36:43)

Oh, his son's running the crypto thing with the Trump kids. Like, it's all just normal.

C (36:46)

It started with Jared was like patient zero for this normalization of family corruption. And this is how a lot of governments do business. You want a big investment, like the son in law's got to be on the board or the son in law's got to get in on the take. Like that happens in a lot of countries. It's happening now at scale because it's the United States. It's also like, as an OG EA Sports guy, I'm not really a gamer anymore, but the TikTok EA Sports, like, they're these big relevant companies that it's like the Trump family, Trump family oligarchs and foreign interests are just consuming, you know.

A (37:18)

Yeah, we'll get into a little more of that kind of cultural space too with these oligarchs too. But yeah, it's. It's just gross, man. It's gross. So I guess we'll keep watching this one. I mean, next week I'm sure we'll know for sure.

C (37:27)

Another turn.

A (37:28)

Hamas is. I mean, I think odds are. Look, I think odds are Hamas will get to know. Maybe they'll try to renegotiate and buy some time here, but we'll see how much time they're given by Trump and then Yahoo. The other story that could have led this week is Venezuela. For the past few weeks, we've been covering this merger of the war on drugs and the war on terror that has resulted in a series of airstrikes on boats off the coast of Venezuela by the US Military that the Trump administration says were operated by gang affiliated drug runners. We see no evidence of that, but that's what they say. Trump calls them terrorist organizations. So last week NBC News reported that the US Military is preparing options for strikes on drug related targets within Venezuela itself, though those have not yet been approved by the White House. And then on Tuesday this week, the New York Times reported that Secretary of State Marco Rubio is leading an effort that goes well beyond kind of drug interdiction or whatever and is actually designed to depose Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro. The Times notes that there are now 6,500 US troops in that Caribbean region and that the escalating military pressure is aimed at trying to force Maduro out. In other words, regime change. The Times says the CIA director John Ratcliffe and Stephen Miller, the vampire penis looking chief of staff deputy sexual matador, they both support Rubio's hardline approach. They talk about how Rubio has been meeting with opposition leaders in Venezuela who claimed to have a plan for like the hundred hours after Maturo is deposed. The US Technically recognizes Edmundo Gonzalez as president of Venezuela. He's widely believed to have won the 2024 election, won overwhelmingly, but then Maduro stole it. So the time says if Gonzalez asked for the U. S. Intervene, that could be, I guess, taken as some sort of consent for a U. S. Intervention. I guess they're suggesting that would be their legal authorization or framework, which is crazy. The story says Rubio wants to take up Maduro in part because he thinks it will weaken. Wait for it, Ben. Cuba, Cuban government, that always works. A little bank shot diplomacy, double regime change. Yeah, pick out Iraq and you'll get Iran. And it sounds like one of the sole voices of reason in this whole conversation is Rick Grinnell, who, longtime listeners of the show is not our favorite person. He's kind of like a sentient Twitter troll who came to life who became, what was he like, deputy DNI or DNI in the first round.

C (39:41)

I think he's running the Kennedy center now too.

A (39:43)

Great. Yeah, he's kind of like a really cock kind of right wing guy. Worked for John Bolton, but apparently he is the one advocating for keeping a line of dialogue open with Maduro. So any port in the store, my friend. So, Ben, just a couple of thoughts like first of all, there's no legal authorization for regime change, war in Venezuela, and no one should pretend otherwise. Second, I would just ask anyone who supports this plan to name1 recent US regime change operation that ended well. There was an article I read, Ben, that quoted a Venezuelan businessman who said if you take out Maduro, Venezuela turns into Haiti. Now, this person can't predict the future, but I think that is the kind of like downside risk that is highlighted well in that quote and something we should take seriously. And then anyone who's worried about mass migration out of Venezuela should fear that scenario. I know a lot of the population is left, like a quarter of the population has left, but if it turns into that kind of like war zone, like violence, the rest of people are going to be gone too. And I think it's worth pointing out, Ben, that Trump and J.D. vance ran on combating fentanyl in the United States. But fentanyl is made with chemicals from China that are mixed in Mexico. Fentanyl does not come from Venezuela. So this will not even address that problem. And in terms of cocaine, there was a 2020 State Department report that said only 10 to 13% of global cocaine supply goes through Venezuela. Your bigger problems are Colombia and Ecuador and other places. So every part of this is crazy to me. Like when the, the there was a small group of America first kind of isolationist MAGA types who were upset when Marco Rubio got selected to be Secretary of State. And this is their fever dream.

C (41:15)

When you look at why Marco Rubio is doing this job, because a lot of people are like, look at his body language. He doesn't like to be there when Trump is embarrassing Zelensky because he's kind of more your neocon flavor. I've always thought that the reason Marco Rubio might be selling his soul and all these other things, things like Russia and China that he used to be hawkish on is because what he's really been animated by is this kind of anti Cuban, anti Venezuelan politics that he kind of came up through Miami anti Cuban, Cuban exiles who are against the Cuban government. I crossed paths with him on that account when I was negotiating normalization relations with Cuba. And I kind of felt like the deal was Marco gets to be the Secretary of State of Latin America as long as he kind of does whatever we want everywhere else. And so here you see this kind of fever dream these guys have always had. Here's what's wrong with it. Beyond the obvious point. The regime change, wars don't work. We've been through that movie. The Venezuelan military has been propping up Maduro in part because all of these sanctions that basically criminalize economic activity lead to in Venezuela and Cuba, these kind of black market economies where the military is more and more wedded to preserving the regime. Cuz that's how they Keep their piece of the pie. So the idea that you can just decapitate Maduro and all of a sudden everything will be hunky dory of a democracy in Venezuela.

A (42:36)

Crazy.

C (42:36)

Absolutely not. This is a huge oil producer. People are gonna be fighting over the oil. This is a black market economy. People are gonna wanna keep their peace. This is a place where a lot of people have committed human rights abuses. They don't wanna be held accountable. So this would be, we're moving the top of a Pandora's bus.

A (42:50)

Maduro's reportedly deployed a 4 million strong militia to defend the country. Do you think those guys are all going to agree on the next leader?

C (42:58)

So the likelihood of either violent chaos like you said, or even worse, military dictatorship or civil conflict or mass migration, all these risks in Venezuela and in Cuba are quite high. And we've seen Rubio try to engineer this in the past. This leads me to the second point. I have a lot of respect for some of the people in the Venezuelan opposition. You know, they've taken huge risks. We tend to also like over inflate their capacity to have like a three day plan by the way. It's not a fault of theirs. But I think Rubio hears what he wants to hear from these guys. Like we got the skids greased. We know some generals like we'll make this all work. You know, recall that in the first Trump term Rubio member was down like live tweeting in Colombia that Maduro was like on the ropes. Mike Pompeo said he was like playing on the tarmac. And none of that was true. You know, they were getting bad information, cuz they were looking for the thing they wanted to hear, not the truth. And this also puts a lie to this whole boat operation. It's not about narco trafficking, it's certainly not about fentanyl, as you said. It's about kind of creating this sense of escalating conflict that could then spill over into Venezuela.

A (44:01)

Yeah, and look, I'm with you. I have a ton of respect for people who are in the opposition who have fought against Maduro. Like I'm not trying to belittle or like seem indifferent to their concerns. Like I know a lot of people who are friends with Leopoldo Lopez. Like my brother, my cousin went to school with him. Like he was thrown in prison for years, separated from his family. Like Maduro is a horrible person. The world would be a better place.

C (44:22)

So is Saddam Hussein by the way.

A (44:23)

If you were to go away. But just the idea that the United States should Do this militarily is insane to me. It's just like, feels like we have, we have not learned any lessons and I, I just, I, I don't support it. I refuse to allow my tax dollars to go towards that. I think it's wrong. And also Ben, you know the Times had a long piece. They had a reporter down in Venezuela for like a week. This reporter interviewed a woman who regarding these airstrikes said her husband is a fisherman. He'd gone out to fish, went out for the day, never came back. The suggestion in the piece was he was on one of the boats that the US military blew up. Now we don't know for sure, but either way this woman now will raise four kids on her own. Right?

C (44:58)

I'm not sure why I trust Donald Trump and Steve Miller more than that woman.

A (45:01)

No, me either.

C (45:02)

At best it's a 5050 call.

A (45:03)

And I know you wanted to talk about this. A journalist named Aida Chavez quoted, she tweeted a senior Dem staffer is discouraging Democrats from coming out against regime change in Venezuela. The staffers using Bush era Iraq line arguing that opposing Trump Rubio's regime change amounts to supporting Maduro. How is that still happening in 2020?

C (45:22)

I can't believe I just. All I want to say is Democrats, do not be idiots like this person is urging you to be. This is an insane thing for Democrats to be cautious about. Americans don't like war, they don't like regime change, wars Maga people don't like that.

A (45:35)

America first is not regime change.

C (45:36)

War in Venezuela be against this. It is wrong to go to war in Venezuela. It is wrong to have polit policies of regime change. It is wrong to kill people extrajudicially in boats, full stop. You don't need to throat clear about Maduro for 10 minutes by the way. Saddam Hussein's a bad guy. Kim Jong un's a bad guy. I don't think we should go to war in North Korea tomorrow. There are ways of opposing this because if you throw it clear about how terrible Maduro is and you think you need some 12 point plan to present about Venezuela. No, you can just take a stance here that this is the wrong thing to do. All the politics, I mean the policy certain shows that, but all the politics of recent history tells you that when Democrats become republican light and they draft behind these insane republican regime change wars, we end up wearing the fucking jacket for it, you know. So just don't do that. Please, please don't do that.

A (46:18)

Yeah, I just, I just think you're on such good political ground here. Yeah, Like America First. The Democratic Party does not want regime change in Venezuela. Neither does America First. America first is not regime change of Venezuela.

C (46:29)

It is not bailouts in Argentina.

A (46:31)

It is not bailout. A $20 billion bailout for Argentina. It is not reinvading Afghanistan to take Bagram Air Base from the Taliban. It is not Donald Trump running Gaza for some reason with Tony Blair. Like, this is crazy. We are in a crazy place. And it only took nine months to get here. The other quick thing, Ben, I just want to mention is I'm sure you saw that the State Department revoked the visa of Colombian President Gustavo Petro. So during his visit to the UN, Petro participated in this protest over the war in Gaza. He told US Soldiers not to point their rifles, quote, against humanity and to disobey Trump's orders. That led the Trump administration to freak out, throw him out of the country. And I think on Monday, Columbia's foreign minister renounced her US Visa as well. I guess my takeaway from this is like, when did we become so thin skinned? Like, dictators, tyrants have come to the un, have given three hour speeches about the evil of the west and of the United States. And like, usually we just brush it off like we're to throw this guy out of the country. No one would have heard of this if they hadn't highlighted it.

C (47:28)

And from an important country. Right. Colombia has been like, our closest partner in South America for a lot of the last few decades. And look, yeah, to your thin skin point, like, everybody from the fucking escalator operator at the UN to Petro, like, we are the biggest snowflakes in the world. We're trying to act like we're tough, but actually we're so thin skinned and so weak that we're like, you know, can't take the heat of Petro's rhetoric. Give me a fucking break here.

A (47:51)

All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but before we do, we talk a lot on the show about authoritarian states and how they try to silence dissenting voices. Unfortunately, those same anti democratic methods are showing up right here in the US of A. And that is why the work of independent media is so important. We're not going to listen to Brendan Carr over at the FCC when he tries to shut us up. We are not going to be intimidated if J.D. vance calls us dipshits or if Stephen Miller tries to censor our speech. Your subscription helps keep this work going. And in return, you get all of the shows you love ad Free plus exclusive subscriber only content in a vibrant discord community where you can connect with like minded folks folks all over the country. To subscribe and become a friend of the pod, go to crooked.com friends also vote save America is running a first of its kind pilot program to recruit candidates from Arizona, North Carolina and Texas to run for office in races that shape our communities and build a bench for long term Democratic power. Even if you're not from one of those states, they'll connect you with partners at the National Democratic Training Committee and run for something to get ready to run wherever you may be. Thousands have already signed up and Vote Save America is hosting a live call on Tuesday, October 7th at 5pm Pacific 8pm Eastern to welcome new people to the program. I will be there along with Vote Save America's partners who are driving this work to break down what it takes to run and how. We'll support you every step along the way. Sign up for the call and learn more@votesaveamerica.com Run. That's votesaveamerica.com Run paid for by Vote Save America. Learn more@votesave america.com this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. This podcast is brought to you by wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With WISE, you can send, spend and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Whether you're buying souvenirs with yen in Tokyo or sending Karuna to a loved one in Prague, you know you're getting the mid market exchange rate with no extra markups. That's what makes WISE the fast, affordable way to use your money around the globe. WISE offers 24.7live support and runs over 7 million daily checks to catch and prevent fraud so you know your money is where it's supposed to be. I've used WISE many, many times. It's a great way to send and spend money when you're abroad. You can avoid ATMs, you avoid confusing exchange rates, you avoid going to the random counter in the airport and trying to exchange cash. You always feel like you're getting ripped off there. Yeah, you never know. And you're just like you're just a deer in headlights. Like they could could take you for all your worth. Be smart. Join 15 million customers who choose WISE. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com Terms and Conditions apply.

E (50:26)

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A (51:01)

Okay, a few more things. So the Wall Street Journal reported that Chinese President Xi Jinping has determined that Trump basically only cares about getting a trade deal or some other economic deal with China.

C (51:11)

Obviously you didn't need a, as usual, student is analysis.

A (51:14)

Yeah, you didn't, you didn't need Joe Biden's PhD in international relations to suss that up.

C (51:18)

He's just that good.

A (51:19)

He's just that good. So she thinks that Trump, basically she views like Trump is just so horny for a deal that he might even be able to extract a major concession on Taiwan. That being getting the US to say that the US opposes Taiwan's independence. That deviates in a very serious way from America's longstanding and frankly kind of nonsensical one China policy of ambiguity, where we say there is one China, but then we funnel weapons to Taiwan, but we don't support Taiwan independence. We predicted this would come for a while, Ben. Clearly Trump wanted trade, doesn't care about human rights. But watch this space, especially if there's a Trump Xi meeting in October. And also just worth noting that despite like there was Liberation Day tariffs and then there was this escalation with China, and then there was basically a truce where everybody hit pause on the tariffs. But despite that, that tariff truce, ABC News reported, the trade war with China is really crushing American farmers at the moment, especially soybean and corn farmers. And that is because in response to Trump's bullshit, China decided to buy fewer soybeans from the US and buy more from South America, especially Brazil. And it's gotten so bad that Trump is once again pitching a proposal to basically buy off these farmers who are getting hurt with tariff money, which is basically what he did in the first term. So it's just kind of worth noting that like Liberation Day feels like a lifetime ago, but. But the impact has not gone away.

C (52:36)

Yeah. And I'd just say on Taiwan, why does it matter if the US Says that we will not recognize their independence ever? It's cracking the door open to cheap to connect two of these threads saying, okay, so you're recognizing now that Taiwan is basically de facto recognizing that Taiwan is a part of China. This is an internal security matter in the same way that you have an enemy within that you're going to deal with your military, we have an enemy within that we're dealing with, with ours. And so it does legitimize any future potential Chinese military action to forcibly reunify Taiwan. Because they'll just say, well, the US basically recognizes that this is internal security.

A (53:13)

Yeah, it's, it would be a big, big deal. There will be some hard line hawks within the republican movement, within the MAGA world probably that oppose this. Maybe some resignations, but I don't know, they seem to acquiesce to everything. So we'll see. Yeah, two quick things that we wanted to mention we don't have time to dig into that are totally unrelated, but I'm going to squeeze them together. The first, Ben, is as you predicted when we were talking about the Gen Z protests in Nepal. The Gen Z protests are spreading. They're now in Madagascar. The protests are over. Water and electricity shortages that exploded. Reportedly 22 people have been killed. The UN blames security forces for those deaths along with other gangs. In response, the President of Madagascar fired his prime minister and most of the government. So we're going to be watching this one. But you know, I got, by the.

C (53:55)

Way, some worldo sent me messages with videos of these protests making this point.

A (53:59)

Oh, really?

C (54:00)

So like we got a Worldo alert. We got like an intelligence gathering network of worldos who are like watching for protest movements.

A (54:05)

Oh, interesting. You know what we missed that we should dig into sometimes the, the proliferation of pirate imagery and how that became part of this protest. It's a very cool story. Also, again, totally unrelated news. Former French President Nicolas Sarkozy was sentenced to five years in prison last week. His crime is seeking campaign funding from the regime of Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi. Rest in peace in exchange for diplomatic favors. This is a five year sentence is like real deal serious stuff in the French system. And for Sarco, like he's 70 years old, so, you know, clock's ticking. Sarco's got a bunch of other legal issues that we don't need to dig into here. But Ben, as you and I have discussed, I think off mic, it really does make you rethink how eager Sarkozy was to depose Gaddafi back in 2011. It's like pretty sickening actually.

C (54:52)

By far the most aggressive leader in the world in wanting to go to war to remove Gaddafi from power. No question. You know, it was, you know, Obama, reluctant, Cameron, kind of interested. Sarkozy was the one really pushing for it. So I Don't know. Connect those dots. It's not a pretty picture.

A (55:09)

Yeah, it makes you think. Also, Ben, jet setting elites like Mr. Sarkozy, they know that there are some, you know, can't miss cultural events in the world every year. I'm thinking like Art Basel for the contemporary art fans. Coachella or Glastonbury for the music lovers. Cannes Film Festival for all you film buffs out there. Well, now comedy lovers can add the Riyadh Comedy Festival to that August list, because no country loves to laugh like Saudi Arabia. This event is happening as we speak. It's going from a couple days ago through October 8th, so you still have time to get there if you want. The event is part of this kind of broader Saudi cultural effort, PR effort to distract from their human rights issues that spans from soccer to boxing to F1 racing to golf to a Justin Bieber concert here and there. They got paid influencers coming to Saudi Arabia. Anything to get people to post stuff about Saudi Arabia that doesn't talk about Jamal Khashoggi, for example. The common thread here is tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of money. Some comedians were reportedly paid up to $1.6 million for the gig. Some famous names include Dave Chappelle, Kevin Hart, Bill Burr, Aziz Ansari, Louis ck, Pete Davidson, Tom Segura, Chris Tucker, Whitney Cummings, Wayne Brady, and Jeff Ross, among others. Not among them anymore is comedian Tim Dillon, who claims he was offered $375,000 for the gig, which he accepted, and then did a really long bit making fun of it. And here's how that turned out.

F (56:34)

Let's talk about the biggest free speech issue right now in the world. I was fired from the Riyadh Comedy Festival. They called me and he said there they heard what you said about them having slaves. And I said I was being positive about it. I was defending them. Apparently, this got to the people in Saudi Arabia and they were unhappy about it. I certainly wasn't going to show up in your country and insult the people that are paying me the money one is illegal. So I wasn't really planning to go to a Saudi jail. This is the first time I've been fired by people that actually do really bad things. So let's take this win. Let's take this win. I'm now with Iran. Iran's against them. I'm with Iran now you push me into the bosom of Iran. Do you understand that? I'm going to Tehran to do their comedy festival. I don't. I don't care. This is Geopolitics.

A (57:48)

Very funny. Tim Dillon is very funny.

C (57:49)

So does anyone tell them it's Iran? No, I'm not going to be the lib here.

A (57:54)

So the event is this comedy festival. It's supposedly the brainchild of MBS's close confidant, Saudi crit, Mohammed bin Zalman's close confidant, Turkey Al Sheikh, noted comedy lover. Yeah, he reportedly likes to throw people in prison if they make fun of him. On Twitter, Human Rights Watch noted that the festival's dates include the seventh anniversary of the state sanctioned execution of journalist Jamal khashoggi. That was October 2, 2018. This is happening just a couple months after the Saudis executed a journalist for speech. So, Ben, I have. We've been doing the show for a long time. I've basically given up any hope that.

C (58:27)

We'Ve lost this argument.

A (58:28)

Yeah, the business world will care about anything but money when it comes to Saudi Arabia. And then when Joe Biden went to Saudi Arabia, gave MBS a fist bump, it was hard to ask, let's say, a professional golfer to take a harder line on the Saudis than the U.S. government was. But I, I still think this, this comedy festival still bums me out, let's put it that way. Because comedians occupy this space in our culture where they call out, they call it hypocrisy. They mock people who are. And it just feels like they are. They are folding in the most, you know, craven way here. And so, I don't know, I guess, like, it, it makes all the complaints about cancel culture and censorship feel very, very hollow. If you are doing stand up in Riyadh, I just, I don't really think you care.

C (59:13)

Yeah, it's the thing that's your choice. Look, you. We've definitely lost that moment after the killing of Jamal Khashoggi where, like, for about a year, people were nervous to go to Saudi Arabia. They have very credit where it's due. They very successfully laundered their reputation through sports, through a lot of money, culture, through business, obviously, through crypto, and now through, you know, comedy. It is particularly appalling because this is like for rich people in Riyadh to come. Like, you couldn't say the things that they're even gonna say there. And presumably they're gonna go a little soft on the Saudi royal family. But if you said anything remotely like that out in the Saudi countryside, you get killed, you get executed, thrown in prison. So these people are full of shit. They're hypocrites. Cause that leads me to the last point. Here, Tommy. I've always kind of had culture podcast envy. So I'm just gonna make this point. Comedians in this country need to grow the fuck up because they are actually now more powerful than they act. Especially these kind of right leaning comics. We've heard for years about how persecuted they are by Cancel Culture and they can't say certain things. Well, you know what? You guys won. Donald Trump is the president. Now all your favorite buddies have the biggest podcast, even bigger than Pod Save the World. And you're still acting aggrieved. I mean, there's like a. I'm not saying every one of those people. I'm sad to see Bill Burr on the list. For instance. I'd like to think he might like have.

A (60:37)

He's the one who surprised me the most.

C (60:39)

Yeah. Cause Chappelle at least has been kind of like, hey man, I'm just getting paid. Like, I wish Chappelle didn't do it too.

A (60:43)

But Pete Davidson's dad died in the 911 attacks.

C (60:46)

911 attacks. That's a dark.

A (60:47)

That's a surprising one.

C (60:48)

But the Saudis make a point of showing like, they're smart. They wanna make a point of showing that we can get an ideologically diverse set of comics. We can get comics like Pete Davidson who have personal connections back here. We get guys like Bill Burr who like, have leaned a little bit more anti maga. We got guys like Chappelle. But the comic industry, such as it is in this country, kind of needs to recognize that, like, you cannot be the underdog outsider complaining about censorship and then go pick up the check in Riyadh. It just makes you look as full of shit as every other sector of American society. Which is how anybody who hears about this, and a lot of people are hearing about this, are going to feel about you.

A (61:23)

Yeah. And again, the Saudis, they got the 2034 soccer FIFA World cup. Right. Like they're winning.

C (61:29)

I get it that every industry does this, but like, if you find. Then go pick up your check, but then don't come to me and say that you're pissed about Cancel Culture, you guys.

A (61:37)

They do occupy a special role, I think, as people who are seen as using comedy to tell the truth in funny ways.

C (61:42)

I would like to think, like George Carlin would not have gone.

A (61:44)

I would like to think that too. Well, and also saw that Barstool Sports founder Dave Portnoy claimed that Tom Brady is getting paid $75 million to play a flag football game in Saudi Arabia. It's the fanatics flag football classic apparently is what it's called next year in Riyadh. Now, Brady says that number is bullshit. But like Tom Brady, man, like, you don't need the money.

C (62:04)

How much is enough?

A (62:04)

Like, I know he got a divorce and I think Gisele had the most money, but he still has to be worth like hundreds of millions of dollars.

C (62:11)

He's getting paid like hundreds of millions of dollars to call like a game a week. And anyway, it's just all of American elite needs to ask themselves, like, how much is enough? Because, right.

A (62:20)

What's the point of making fuck you money if you never say fuck you?

C (62:23)

Exactly. Thank you.

A (62:24)

Like, that's all I need to know. Finally, Ben, this moment from Trump's pool spray with Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan made us both laugh last week.

C (62:32)

So good.

A (62:33)

Let's watch.

B (62:34)

Rigged election. You know, he knows about rigged elections better than anybody. But.

A (62:42)

For context, earlier this year, Erdogan had the mayor of Istanbul, who was widely seen as his toughest political opponent, arrested along with like a hundred other people. Istanbul University also annulled the guy's university degree so that he could not run for president under Turkish law. Ben, do you think, do you think what happened there, do you think he was making a joke? Was he being a dick? Was he just sort of oblivious?

C (63:04)

I think that we saw in real time the kind of confusion of Trump's projection versus Trump saying what he's going to do. Right. Not a novel insight that Trump describes his enemies as doing the things that he does. And so there we saw this kind of weird three dimensional projection, cuz it's like, is he saying that Erdogan has been up against other people trying to rig the elections and he rightfully put them in prison? Or is he saying, like, I really admire how this guy's rigged elections over there because. And Erdogan didn't know what was going on. Like, he didn't laugh. You know, did you see? Like, if. For those of you who don't have the video, please watch on YouTube. Yeah, but like, he's just kind of sitting there, like, do I chuckle?

A (63:40)

I know. Is he waiting for the translation?

C (63:42)

Is he pissed?

A (63:43)

What's going on? Because they've had a pretty, you know, they've had a rough going.

C (63:46)

Maybe he took it as a compliment. Now I'm pretty good at rigging elections.

A (63:48)

Steal the shit out of those elections. So funny. God, it sucked. That Trump is funny.

C (63:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unintentionally or intentionally?

A (63:54)

Intentionally, Unintentionally. The guy makes me laugh and very few people on the Democratic side do, and we need to work on that.

C (64:00)

Yes.

A (64:00)

Not in Riyadh though. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, you're going to hear Ben's interview with Rula Jibril about Trump's peace plan, about the absence of Palestinian representation in talks about the future of Gaza and the Palestinian state. So stick around for that Pod Save the World is brought to you by Smalls. Does your cat have gut issues? Maybe it's time for a diet upgrade with Smalls for a limited time. Get 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com world. Smalls Cat Food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your own fridge and it's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best Overall cat food. Starting with Smalls is easy. Just share info about your cat's diet, health and food preferences. Then Smalls puts together a personalized sampler for your cat. No more picking between random brands at the store. Smalls has the right food to satisfy any cat's cravings. Here's a real review from a real Smalls customer, Jennifer M. Said. After every feeding he hits this burst of energy and starts running around the house. And his fur is softer and more vibrant with higher contrast. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend anything else. And now you can add a few other cat favorites like amazing treats and snacks to your Small's order. After switching to smalls, 88% of cat owners reported overall health improvements. That is a big deal. The team at Smalls is so confident your cat will love their product that you can try it risk free. That means they will refund you if your cat won't eat their food. What are you waiting for? Or give your cat the food they deserve for a limited time because you are a Pod Save the World listener. Get 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com world one last time. That's 60% off your first order plus Free Shipping when you head to smalls.Com world.

E (65:43)

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C (66:18)

I'm very pleased to welcome back to Pod Save the World my friend Rula Jibril. She is an author, a journalist, a foreign policy analyst. She's a Palestinian with Israeli citizenship. She has a lot of knowledge and lived experience and she's also the author of a new book, Genocide, which is out in Italian and is coming out in English in the next couple of months. Rula, thanks so much for being here.

G (66:40)

Thank you for having me, Ben.

C (66:41)

Okay, so you and I saw each other at the UN General assembly, but a lot's happened since then. We talked earlier in the podcast about Trump's 20 point plan for ending the war in Gaza. Plan calls for a committee of Palestinian technocrats to run Gaza supervised by a, quote, board of peace, which would include Trump and Tony Blair. Eventually, if certain reforms are met, the Palestinian Authority will take over the plan. Kind of nods at some eventual statehood for Palestinians, but not a lot of detail there. There's a lot to unpack here. But my first question really is just what is your reaction to this plan? What do you think Trump and Netanyahu are up to with this?

G (67:23)

First of all, I want to underscore how Palestinians want this genocide to end. Every night hundreds of Palestinians get killed in Gaza and 400 get injured. There's real mass starvation and real suffering. So they want this to end. However, it's clear that Israel ethnic cleansing plan failed completely. But this Trump plan is full of booby traps. Let's put it this way, the first one is, first of all, they never consulted any Palestinian for this plan. They're treating Palestinians as objects and they're not addressing the root cause of it all, which is military occupation, which is Israel long decade of illegal military occupation. Immediately after Trump and Netanyahu spoke, Netanyahu exited the White House and gave an interview in Hebrew where he stated he and followed by his minister. They said that they will not basically respect all the details of the plans, especially they are against Palestinian statehood. Netanyahu said that Trump understand that for Israel and for his government, Palestinian statehood is a political suicide. I don't know what he's talking about. If you want security, you need statehood. These two things are intertwined. Second, they said that they will never withdraw from the Palestinian occupied territory of Gaza. So if the whole peace plan or Trump plan boils down to we will give you some food, you give us the hostages, but then Netanyahu has the full right or he can ignite the genocide after the hostages are released. This is not a peace plan. This is a charade, I would call it. But above all, it's trying to frame the whole plan as we gave them a choice, which is not really a choice, and then blame it on Hamas. Well, we tried, but then blame it all on Hamas. And the final part is that Palestinian sovereignty, there will never be Palestinian sovereignty according to this plan. They said they will try. But it's clear from Netanyahu's statement there will be pressure on Hamas to disarm, but then there's no pressure on Israel to do anything to protect Palestinians, especially those who get killed or to dismantle the occupation and the colonization. So again, it goes down to the crude cause of everything. And it's not addressing it. It's just giving to, I would say Donald Trump, Netanyahu some time so they can repackage the genocide in terms like we try to tell them, they refuse and now we have no choice but to continue and complete the job. The job is annihilation.

C (70:02)

Yeah, we've seen this movie before. This just has a little more detail on it. I did want to ask you one more question on this, which is you mentioned the fact that they basically made a whole plan for Gaza without consulting any Palestinians. And really, as you said, it's normalizing permanent occupation or retaking of the Gaza Strip by Israel. But I do want to ask you about this question about. They're talking about Palestinian technocrats. They're talking about some future without Hamas, but they're not even talking to Palestinians. And look, I know they're not going to do that. That's who they are. But what would it look like to actually meaningfully consult Palestinians? I mean, what is the piece that is missing here? Because I guess you could even talk about. But let's put aside even Trump and Netanyahu, the Saudis and the French, they had an initiative too. Who are the right Palestinians for other countries to be engaging with in discussions about Gaza and the future of the people there?

G (71:04)

The Palestinians are there. Even if you consider the Palestinian Authority a corrupt entity, whatever you consider it, but the Palestinian civilian civil society is there. There's Hanan Ashraoui, Mustafa Barghouti. There's so many amazing Palestinians who are, who've been former negotiators, people who are engaging on the issues, understand the details, engage with Israel for a long time. But not only them, there's a vibrant civil society across of Palestine. You know who I would include, actually, Ben, somebody that you met last week, ayman Odeh, a Palestinian Israeli who continue, who is a member of the Israeli Knesset. He continued to advocate for democracy and equality and freedom for both sides. These are the voices that need to be heard. There's one aspect of this plan which it just clearly has Kushner and Witkoff behind it. And Netanyahu, which is Tony Blair role. I mean, Tony Blair is a discredited human being who lied about WMD and about the Iraq war that led to the murder of 600,000 Iraqis, to the destabilization of the whole region. And he's somebody who profited from his consultants with murderous regimes. And this is the guy you want to choose to lead, be the governor of Gaza. I mean, it's like this is a failed plan. Palestinians always demanded one thing, self determination, freedom. And this is tied directly to ending the military occupation. These two pieces are intertwined. I don't know, how can Trump think that he can bypass all of that exactly the same way he bypassed Palestinian through the Abraham Accord and not understand this is heading towards an explosion? I mean, there's no way to put these three, four elements together and not think that this is delusional.

C (72:59)

Well, what's interesting too, is that the only people they are talking to is actually Hamas. And I mean, they're doing that through a third party, presumably Qatar. But for people who say they want an alternative leadership, they seem to only talk to Hamas, which is notable. I want to also ask you about the West Bank. The other announcement that kind of came out last week is this promise from Trump that he just won't allow the west bank to be annexed. At the same time, though, we've seen this kind of rapid expansion of settlements. We've seen horrific settler violence against Palestinians. This summer, we saw the Knesset vote by a wide margin for a symbolic resolution calling for the annexation of the West Bank. And since several countries recognize the Palestinian state, Netanyahu and his coalition have been making noises about annexation. What are you hearing? I know you're in touch with a lot of people in the west bank or in parts of the kind of contested territories. What is your sense now of where things are going on the West Bank?

G (73:56)

I think there's a full fledged ethnic cleansing taking place in the west bank, and there's no way to hide it. This Israeli government empowered and armed Israeli extremists who are every night attacking Palestinian villages. And not only the Bagrans, Hawara and Benaiah and many other areas, especially in the areas near Bethlehem, Beit Sahud, every night. And there's no justice for Palestinians. There's no protection. There's no Hamas. Also there. There's a Palestinian Authority that is subcontractors to the Israeli military commanders. Again, Trump says that there is not going to be annexation because he understands what is happening. Unlike Netanyahu, he saw that the support for Israel is collapsing in the United States. The polls are very clear. Not only that, he also saw a lot of pressure at the United nations from the global south, but also the initiative that you just mentioned, the Saudis and the French initiative. He wanted to play a role. Obviously, he took parts of those plans of the Saudis, of the Arab initiative. But he is ignoring the main, I think, plan that, that the Arabs put and repackaged many times, which is total recognition of every 57 Muslim and Arab countries of Israel in exchange of one thing, ending the occupation of Palestinian statehood. Israel rejects that. Israel think that militarily they can dominate the entire region. And one of the reasons, I think we don't understand what's happening, because our media refuses to tell the American citizens what the Israeli ministers every day on national television and say to their audience. Just three days ago, the Minister of Technology from the Likud Party, she stated on national television that the west bank will be annexed. But also she went further. She talked about mass unforced expulsion, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank. Smochrich stated the same, Bengvir stated the same. Generals are talking openly about, we would like to expel Palestinians from the West Bank. The vice president of the Israeli parliament two days ago said it clearly, unequivocally, that for Israel, they need to change the demographic equation, that there's 7 million and a half Palestinians, that many of them need to be expelled. For Israel to feel for him, he was talking about the religious aspiration of Jewish dominance, an exclusive Jewish state. This is the reality of Israel today. I mean, you have a newspaper, a magazine, 972 magazine, an Israeli magazine, that the headline three days ago was, what's happening in Gaza is a holocaust and we need denazification. I mean, these are the kind of things that we don't know a lot in the United States. But for somebody like me who follow and consume Israeli media, what these politicians are saying represents a huge sentiment, a popular sentiment in Israel today.

C (77:02)

Yeah. And they've been doing what they said they were gonna do for the last couple of years. You lead me to this question about what should others be doing? Right. And let's put aside Trump for a second now because, you know, it feels like Last week was an effort to kind of buy time. Right. We have a 20 point Gaza plan. We're gonna say we're not gonna annex the west bank, but meanwhile the facts on the ground keep moving forward. Yes, you mentioned the Arab states. I've sensed a growing frustration among the Palestinian voices that I kind of follow in Gaza and the west bank that the Arab states aren't doing more to protect them, to stand up to Israel, to press the United States where they have some leverage, obviously because of oil and other investments. We did see MBS take a more out there role in this kind of recognition conference around Palestinian state. What would you want to see the Arab states doing that they're not doing? What's your assessment of how the Arab world has acted in solidarity or not with Palestinians?

G (78:02)

I mean, look, we're talking about the regimes. Also I am a European citizen. I'd like, if I may talk about the Europeans who lecture the rest of the world for years about democracy, women's rights, animal rights, and then stating clearly in multiple occasions the difference between regimes or autocracy and democracy are the respective international law. Well, Israel has been violating international law for decades with Gaza genocide. They've been clear flagrant violation of every norm, every convention, and yet they did nothing. Europe happened to be the biggest trading partner, the most important trading partner in Israel. They did not spend any trading accords. Israeli citizens travel easily to Europe without a visa, including those who committed war crimes. Times on video they actually film themselves where they're killing civilians. But above all, there's countries that continue to arm, Israel, Germany and Italy. In the case of Italy, it's even more egregious because they have a special agreement where Israeli soldiers are allowed to vacation in Italy, in Sardinia and in the Marche with the police protection. If this is not complicity, I don't know what I can go to the Arab world. I think, I think we need to understand that the reaction of the Arab world is very different now, especially after the Iraq war that destabilized the whole region after the Arab Spring. And it's just a different Arab world. I think a lot of conservatives, and I might agree with some of the analysis that Netanyahu was one of the cheerleaders of those wars, the wars in Iraq, the wars in Libya, et cetera, because he wanted to dominate the region and he wanted to destabilize any opposition to his rule. Right. I think what we are seeing today in the Arab world is the byproduct of those 20 year long war on terror which is a weakened region, a region that is divided, but also a region that is much more dependent on the charity of the United States. And even that charity, or even that kind of military agreement did not protect the Qataris when they were bombed. So I think now they're evaluating the region, is evaluating that the relationship with the United States, that had to go through military agreements, but also financial agreement, it's not working. And they're now actually talking actively with other parties. But why they're not reacting towards Israel with strength, with more. Because for a long time, and I hate to say this, for a long time, I think there was this idea that if you have an agreement with the United States, it doesn't matter, you have to obey the rule and they would protect you. That rule was blown away into pieces when they attacked Qatar. So I think they are reasoning differently. Do they care about the Palestinians or they care about their survival? I think they care first and foremost, these regions, regimes, about their survival. But I know for a fact that many, especially countries that are affected by the genocide in Gaza, Jordan, Egypt and even the Gulf, in their own way, with especially the Qatar, tried very much to engage with both Democrats before and Trump, and they basically were shut down. They were ignored completely. The Europeans were ignored completely. Trump changed his mind from the Riviera to this peace plan, or whatever you want to call it, it. Not because he loved Palestinians or because of the absolute pressure on the United States, on Israel in international arena.

C (81:42)

Yeah, well, I want to ask you about the public piece of this because you importantly, at the beginning of your answer there said there's a difference between people and their governments.

G (81:50)

Yes.

C (81:51)

And when I look around the world right now, in the United States, you've got this really rapid shift away from support for Israel. The recent poll showed a significant majority more supportive of the Palestinians. In Europe, it's probably even more in terms of people being out of step with their governments. You've seen people kind of take matters into their own hands, trying to organize boycotts of Israeli participation in Eurovision or Israeli participation in sporting events from Italy, where you live. Part of the time there's these flotillas that are getting bigger and more ambitious. What is useful for people to be doing? So many people feel this imbalance between what their governments are doing and how they feel about things. What is the most constructive way for people to be trying to support Palestinians now or trying to bring an end to the genocide in Gaza?

G (82:46)

Look, last week I met President Petro from Colombia and he was, in a very bold way, together with South Africa and other countries, they challenged Israel in the international arena, especially in the International Court of Justice. And I think it's very important to understand that people around the world felt betrayed by their own governments. What the Global south did, which was ignored a lot in the American media, is challenge. It challenged the United States, but especially Western countries in an indirect way, saying, well, while you are supplying weapons and being complicit, we will do something else. We'll use the leverage of the law, we'll take it to the courts. And I think they challenge something very important, which is the moral superiority of the West. But not only that, I think there's a deep pivot from the United States geopolitically and why a lot of people, I mean, I was stunned when Petro was here, the thousands of people who showed up to listen to him in the streets of New York, at the organization that hosted him to speak. I'm like, he's a Latin American leader, but spoke to the heart of a lot of young people in the United States. There is more people protesting NETANYAHU Outside the U.N. then people listening to him inside the U.N. these shifts are radical shifts and are very important to us, too. So if I am somebody, whether in Europe or in the United States, I think I would support three, four things that for me are very important. If you are a lawyer, and I know it comes with a lot of risk, support the case against Israel in the International Court of Justice. If you speak English, if you speak Arabic, if you speak Hebrew, I think the documentation, and especially if you are an engineer, tech engineer, please start collecting whatever data that the Israelis themselves are uploading about those war crimes. Second, if you could, and you have the means, the financial means, support any organization that, whether orphans, Palestinian orphans in Gaza, whether the injured in Gaza, or even lawyers who are collecting, and especially NGOs who are collecting war crimes evidence. I think it's very important because without justice, I think the genocide will go down. The history as they got away with it, they can repeat it elsewhere, and they can repeat it not only against Palestinians in Gaza, but elsewhere. They're already promising that, that the west bank will become like Gaza. And if I may conclude, support any politician, and especially in the Democratic coalition, support any politician that can stand up and say, not in my name, I'm not going to send funds to Israel. No more weapons and arms unconditionally to this country. And especially that. Support the rule of law. I mean, Netanyahu and Israel is violating America's only healing on top of violating international Law. So I think there's so many things to do. I would support Mamdani, like, start by supporting Mamdani, start by challenging the people who supported and championed the genocide in the Democratic Party. And I think we can start from there. But there are so many other elements. And if I might conclude, if you know any Palestinian, if you have a platform anywhere, invite Palestinians, speak to them. Don't speak about them or for them, just speak to them. I wish Ezra Klein will invite more Palestinians. I think he. I'm saying I find it outrageous that he would invite Ben Shapiro and all of these guys. And he never talked about to one Palestinian except one, Baconi, who I love. But he talked to him specifically about his book about Hamas. And that was immediately after October 7th. And nothing else? Nothing else.

C (86:51)

Well, one last question I have for you. You and I have known each other for a long time.

G (86:54)

Yes.

C (86:54)

And so you're very outspoken and you split time between New York, you're a Palestinian with Israeli citizenship and you also are Italian. You've got Trump in charge here, you've got Meloni in charge in Italy, obviously Israel, you've got Netanyahu in charge. How do you feel, if you don't mind my asking, about speaking your mind? And at a time when we've seen these efforts to kind of target speech or delegitimize speech in all the places where you have ties or citizenship, I.

G (87:31)

Don'T think they can achieve what they want. If we stand up and if we stand together, the overwhelming majority of the people in the world are becoming moral guarantor of humanitarian norms. Our governments are failing. Meloni is actually slipping the polls specifically because of our position on Gaza. I believe Democrats in America, and I think we need to address this point, Democrats in America lost the election, sacrificed democracies over their support for the Israeli genocide, and there's no running away from this. So when we talk about targeting people, I don't understand Ben. And for me, it's just baffling. In these three years, when Baloney became prime minister, I was sued by Meloni, I was sued by her vice president, Prime Minister Salvini, and by the vice president of the Parliament, Rampelli. I won two of those lawsuits. And yet I look at these billionaires and these platforms and all of these incredible powerful people in America capitulating to Trump, and I was like, I wonder, I mean, what's going on here? I have no idea how you don't understand a basic rule. Rule. If you submit, if you capitulate to a bully and A thug. You're never free. It's just the beginning of a long trail and a long road where you have to give in always. But if you stand up once, it might be painful, it might be costly. I mean, at a certain point, principles and economics matter. There's no good economics under dictatorship. Okay? If you want to stay wealthy, even from the standpoint of your own economic outcome, you have to stand up for what's right. Otherwise you will lose your credibility and you will lose the audience. I don't know how it will end up with Meloni, but I know one thing, that after these three years of critical opposition to Meloni, she's slipping in the polls. People are aware that her politics, which is identity politics and racist politics, did not work. And now they see that extension in her foreign policy. They see when she says Italian first, but then she basically submit herself, she's totally submissive to Trump and Netanyahu's foreign policy agenda. And I think people, they might make the mistake of electing these people once. But I think if we create a real opposition, an opposition that is rooted in legality, morality, but also that opposition that is in touch with a base, we can win. I have no doubt about that.

C (90:16)

All right, well, look, Rula, thanks so much for joining us. We covered a lot. There's a lot going on. People should look for the English translation of your book, which is out in Italian now, genocide in a couple months. But best of luck to you, Rula, and we'll be in touch.

G (90:29)

Thank you. Thank you, Ben.

A (90:35)

Thanks again to Rula for doing the show and talk to you guys next week. Pod Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkowski. Our associate producer is Michael Goldsmith. Saul Rubin is helping out this summer. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cancer is our audio engineer. Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Thanks to our digital team, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, William Jones, David Toles and Ryan Young. Matt De Groat is our head of production. Adrian Hill is our senior vice president of news and politics. If you want to listen to Pod Save the World ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter for more original content. Host takeovers and other community events. Plus, find Pod Save the world on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and much more. And if, like us, you're opinionated, leave us a review. Our production staff is proudly unionized by the Writers Guild of America East.

E (91:46)

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D (92:16)

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