Trump’s Insane Plan To “Own” Gaza

Summary

Pod Save the World: "Trump’s Insane Plan To “Own” Gaza"
Release Date: February 12, 2025
Hosts: Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes
Episode Summary:

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Pod Save the World, hosts Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes delve into the tumultuous developments surrounding former President Donald Trump's audacious plan to “own” Gaza. Released shortly after Trump’s announcement, the episode provides an in-depth analysis of the geopolitical ramifications, the reactions from the international community, and the broader implications for U.S. foreign policy.

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2. Trump's Plan to "Own" Gaza

Tommy Vietor opens the discussion by highlighting Trump's unexpected declaration to ethnically cleanse and indefinitely occupy the Gaza Strip. This plan, which aims to deny Palestinians the right to return to their homeland, has been met with widespread condemnation.

• Trump's Announcement:
  • [05:10] Donald Trump: "I'm committed to buying and owning Gaza... we're committed to owning it."
  • [05:31] Donald Trump: "Would the Palestinians have the right to be returned? No, they wouldn't."

Ben Rhodes emphasizes the historical and legal implications of such a move, questioning Trump's disregard for state sovereignty and international law established post-World War II.

• [07:42] Ben Rhodes: "This idea is an absolute dead on arrival, crazy thing to be talking about... it's treating land like real estate instead of sovereign territory."

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3. International Reactions and Regional Stability

The hosts discuss the immediate backlash from key Arab nations, including Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Egypt, and Jordan, all of which are significant recipients of U.S. military aid.

• Impact on Jordan and Egypt:
  • Tommy Vietor: "Half the population of Jordan is Palestinian... Egypt is struggling with massive economic problems."
  • [11:57] Ben Rhodes: "King Abdullah is married to a Palestinian... it's unclear if his regime could survive this pressure."

The discussion underscores the precarious balance these nations maintain, highlighting how Trump's pressure could destabilize already fragile governments.

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4. USAID and Foreign Aid Cuts

Tommy shifts focus to the broader context of Trump’s foreign policy shifts, particularly the cuts to USAID and their dire consequences.

• Consequences of USAID Cuts:
  • [67:57] Sarah Jacobs: "We are already seeing more people facing starvation... Ebola outbreak in Uganda cannot be effectively managed."
  • [73:55] Ben Rhodes: "Foreign assistance is more than just health care... it's essential for security operations like anti-narcotics missions."

Sarah Jacobs, a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, details how the freeze on USAID funding is crippling efforts to combat crises in Africa, leading to increased starvation, disease outbreaks, and weakened security infrastructure.

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5. Nomination Turbulence: Kash Patel for FBI Director

The episode covers the contentious nomination of Kash Patel as Trump’s pick for FBI Director, highlighting his questionable employment history and potential conflicts of interest.

• Kash Patel’s Controversies:
  • [29:03] Ben Rhodes: "A country that no longer exists... he's got foreign financial entanglements that would spike literally anyone from getting a security clearance."
  • [30:24] Tommy Vietor: "He seems to have perjured himself... What are you guys going to do about it?"

Ben Rhodes critiques Patel’s background, pointing out his ties to foreign entities and his role in purging career civil servants at the FBI, raising alarms about national security risks.

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6. JD Vance’s International Trip and AI Summit

Tommy Vietor reports on JD Vance’s first international trip as Vice President, where he addressed an AI summit in France alongside global leaders.

• AI Leadership and Regulations:
  • [47:36] JD Vance: "America wants to partner with all of you... we need international regulatory regimes that foster the creation of AI technology."

The summit reflects the Trump administration’s stance on AI, advocating for minimal regulation to maintain American leadership, contrasting sharply with Biden’s approach focused on AI safety and guardrails.

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7. Political Instability in the Philippines

The hosts explore the volatile political landscape in the Philippines, focusing on the intense rivalry between the Marcos and Duterte families.

• Assassination Threats and Impeachment:
  • [60:35] Tommy Vietor: "Duterte threatened to have Marcos and his family assassinated if she was killed... She clarified that she was not joking."
  • [61:51] Sarah Jacobs: "The Philippines lacks true democracy... It’s just about power and wealth."

This feud exemplifies the deep-seated corruption and lack of democratic governance in the region, with serious implications for U.S. foreign relations.

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8. Executive Orders and Historical File Releases

Tommy highlights Trump’s executive order to release JFK assassination files, uncovering 2,400 previously misplaced documents.

• JFK Files Release:
  • [63:09] Ben Rhodes: "This doesn't exactly put conspiracy theories to rest... maybe that's where we get some clarity."

While the release may not conclusively resolve long-standing theories, it represents a significant shift in accessing historical government records.

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9. Conclusion and Looking Forward

The episode culminates with a discussion on the broader implications of Trump’s foreign policy maneuvers, emphasizing the destabilization of international relations, undermining of U.S. national security, and the erosion of democratic institutions.

Ben Rhodes warns of a future where the U.S. becomes increasingly alienated from international law and cooperation, citing the sanctioning of ICC officials and the alignment with kleptocratic interests.

• [26:21] Ben Rhodes: "The center of gravity on issues of international law and cooperation are going to move from Washington... the US is becoming a rogue nation outside of international law."

Tommy Vietor echoes these sentiments, expressing deep concern over the accelerating shift towards authoritarianism and the potential for constitutional crises triggered by Trump's disregard for established norms.

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Notable Quotes

• Donald Trump on Gaza Ownership:
  [05:10] "I'm committed to buying and owning Gaza... we're committed to owning it."

• Ben Rhodes on Sovereignty:
  [07:42] "It's treating land like real estate instead of sovereign territory."

• Sarah Jacobs on USAID Impact:
  [67:57] "We are already seeing more people facing starvation... Ebola outbreak in Uganda cannot be effectively managed."

• Kash Patel’s Potential Threat:
  [30:24] "He seems to have perjured himself... What are you guys going to do about it?"

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Final Thoughts

Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes provide a comprehensive and critical examination of Donald Trump’s foreign policy initiatives, particularly his controversial plans for Gaza. The episode underscores the dangerous precedent set by undermining international law, decreasing foreign aid, and appointing unqualified officials to key national security positions. As the global landscape continues to evolve, the hosts caution against the long-term repercussions of such policies, calling for vigilant oversight and public accountability to preserve democratic values and international stability.

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Transcript

[Tommy Vitor]

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[Ben Rhodes]

I'm Ben Rhodes.

[Tommy Vitor]

Ben, so I was a little bit wrong when I said you should never bet against Patrick Mahomes in the Super Bowl. Just a touch off on that prediction.

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, you were right about it until you were wrong then.

[Tommy Vitor]

Really wrong.

[Ben Rhodes]

I have to say I was very excited for that game. I like hosted some people. I made some wings. I made two kinds of wings and tried to get my kids what kind. I did like a buffalo and then like a honey soy, which was a smash. Good choices, great choices. I was trying to get my kids into the game. Like, oh, you know, we're going to watch this great football game. And by the second quarter it was very evident that this was not going to be a very good game.

[Tommy Vitor]

That was a pretty bad game. I mean, my kids will stare at any thing that's on the wall and has magic moving pictures, but they could give a about the game itself.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, the humbling things about having kids too. Is that, like, when the ads came on, they didn't really know who the celebrities were. And I'm like, there's Matt Damon and they, they have no idea who that is, you know, like, so I felt kind of old, you know? Yeah, yeah. Welcome to, welcome to middle age.

[Tommy Vitor]

I, like, love those Duncan ads. I do feel like they're at. We're at a point where we're just putting too many celebrities into ads. Like, you didn't need Jeremy Strong and Drew and Matt Dam. Like, it was like people here.

[Ben Rhodes]

And Matthew McCon showed up multiple times. I think so many times. I mean, Gronk. Yeah. When I was a kid, like, it was like the Bud bowl and a bunch of guys going, what's up? You know, like, we didn't need all these celebrities, you know, I think they got to dial it back.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. Every once in a while, you know, you see the tweets where people are talking about late stage capitalism and I roll my eyes a little bit, but seeing Seal the singer as a. Like a digital, actual Seal singing about Mountain Dew made me want to blow my brains out, if we're being honest. I was like, I don't know.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I'm sorry, I can't unsee that.

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, this experiment might be over anyway. I know everyone's here for our super bowl takes. We got a great show today. We're going to cover Trump's brand new plan to occupy Gaza, how it's infuriating basically everyone in the Arab world. We're also going to explain why people are terrified that the Gaza ceasefire deal might collapse. Then we'll talk about why Trump's pick for FBI director might have perjured himself. Interesting story there, how the DOJ is making foreign corruption and kleptocracy much easier. JD Vance took his first international trip to Paris to talk about AI. I heard that Donald and Melania let him fly by himself on the plane. You know, they had like an aunt or something pick him up at the, at the hangar, but you know, he did it. So we'll check in on him. We'll talk about why the US is suddenly welcoming white refugees from South Africa, some crazy shit going down in the Philippines. And then, Ben, you'll hear my conversation with Congresswoman Sarah Jacobs from San Diego. We're going to talk about the impact of the USAID and foreign assistance cuts. We'll talk about her work to end the civil war in Sudan. And then what power Democrats in the House have to stop Trump, by the way, this booking happened at a Vote Save America event just south of la. So lots of good symbiotic moves here.

[Ben Rhodes]

Sign up for Votes America. You too might end up on Pod Save the World.

[Tommy Vitor]

You too might end up on a podcast talking about the uae. But Ben, let's start in Washington, because shortly after we recorded last week, President Trump announced that in addition to his plan to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, he also wants the US to occupy it indefinitely and deny those people he will displace the right to return home. Trump advisors reportedly didn't know he was going to announce this Gaza occupation plan before he did it. And then they seem to try to walk it all back. But then Trump is just doubling down over and over again. Let's listen to a super cut of some of the things he said about this in the last couple days.

[Donald Trump]

I'm committed to buying and owning Gaza. As far as US rebuilding it, we may give it to other states in the Middle east to build sections of it. Other people may do it through our auspices, but we're committed to owning it.

[Ben Rhodes]

Taking it, Mr. President, take it under.

[Sarah Jacobs]

What authority it is sovereignty.

[Donald Trump]

Under the US Authority. We're not going to buy anything. We're going to have it and we're going to keep it and we're going to make sure that there's going to be peace. We'll build beautiful communities for the 1.9 million people. We'll build beautiful communities. Communities, safe communities. It would be a beautiful piece of land. Would the Palestinians have the right to be returned? No, they wouldn't. Because they're going to have much better housing. Much better. In other words, I'm talking about building a permanent place for them.

[Tommy Vitor]

But what about the Palestinians who just won't leave?

[Ben Rhodes]

We've spoken.

[Donald Trump]

Our king has spoken to many. They're all going to leave when they have a place that's a better alternative, when they have a nice place that's safe, they're all going to leave. It's a hellhole right now, but how.

[Tommy Vitor]

Are you so surely the US Forced them to leave.

[Donald Trump]

You're going to see that they're all going to want to leave.

[Tommy Vitor]

So no surprise that this plan didn't go over all that well in Arab capitals like Saudi Arabia, the uae, Egypt and Jordan on Monday in advance of King Abdullah of Jordan's visit to the White House on Tuesday. Today, when we're recording, Trump also said he would consider withholding aid from Egypt and Jordan if they refused to take in Palestinians. For those who don't know, Jordan And Egypt are some of the top recipients of U.S. military aid and have been for decades, in large part because both countries cut the first peace deals with Israel. And the stability of those governments is seen as the cornerstone for peace in the entire region. So, Ben, you know, a lot of. There's a lot of debate about this announcement and people wondering if Trump's serious or if he's bluffing and setting up a negotiating position. I think I'd argue that the reaction we're seeing in the Middle east and the pressure this conversation put on King Abdullah, who was like, sitting there, like, literally, he looked like he was being physically squeezed between Trump in his own population in the Oval Office, that just shows that it doesn't really matter. Like, in addition to being illegal and unethical, calling for the forced migration of Gazans into Jordan is already destabilizing the Jordanian government. And, you know, Abdullah might have bought himself some time in this Oval Office meeting by saying he'd taken 2,000 kids from Gaza who are suffering from dire medical conditions. But I doubt the Trump pressure campaign stops here.

[Ben Rhodes]

No. And let's just point out for a second, Tommy, that we or a lot of people in the US have been in this kind of mode since the election of taking Trump more seriously as this kind of dynamic political figure who is able to build a winning coalition and have kind of projected onto him a competence that he doesn't have. And this is clearly evidence of that. This idea is an absolute dead on arrival, crazy thing to be talking about. It's ethnic cleansing of 2 million people that don't wanna leave. It is existential to Jordan and Egypt that don't wanna take people in. But I mean to gracefully plug something. I wrote about this in the New York Times over the weekend. And the point I wanna pull out of that is two things. Even if this doesn't happen, because it's almost impossible to foresee how this would happen. And despite the fact that he's been taking questions, when he says he wants to buy it, it's not clear who he's buying it from. When he says he wants to own it, it's not clear how he wants to take ownership. They want to deny that US Troops have anything to do with it. But how else could the US Kind of take possession of Gaza without troops? But the two things that I want to underscore are, first of all, just by talking about this in the way that he has the last couple weeks, in addition to what he said about Greenland and Panama and Canada, I guess he is Completely ignoring the concept of state sovereignty, which is the cornerstone of the international legal system that was built after World War II to prevent big nations from just swallowing up smaller ones or grabbing territory like we used to do back in the colonial days. And the reason that's so dangerous is because that interacts with what Vladimir Putin's trying to do in taking chunks of Ukraine or what China might want to do in taking Taiwan or what Israel might want to do in the west bank and Gaza. It's treating land like real estate instead of sovereign territory where people live. That's the first thing. And then the second thing is just the total disregard for the opinion of the Palestinians. He has not even solicited the opinion of a single Palestinian to inform this plan to take over Gaza. And there are 2 million people that live there and don't want to leave there. And it just suggests that we're going back in time to this kind of pre world war period where big powers just took land and made deals over the heads of smaller countries or less powerful people, and that led to two world wars. That's why we set up a whole system of international laws to prevent things like this from happening.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And just to again, hammer this home. I mean, half the population of Jordan is Palestinian. The king doesn't want another huge influx of Palestinians into his country for a bunch of reasons, but starting with the fact that it could topple his regime. But on top of that, Palestinians don't want Jordan to become the de facto Palestinian state because it could deny them the right to return home to areas where they were displaced from in 67 or 48 or wherever in East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza. And then Jordanians don't want a huge influx of Palestinians because they want Jordan to be Jordan, not Palestine. So the Jordanians hate Trump's plan, and then he's also leaning hard on the Egyptians to take in a bunch of people. But Egypt is struggling from massive economic problems. They're currently reliant on big loans from the EU and the imf, and in recent years have taken in a ton of refugees from Sudan, Syria, Yemen. Name your country. And they're struggling with that burden. And they don't want Hamas to, you know, reconstitute. You know, if you displace a big chunk of the Gazan population into Egypt, Hamas reconstitutes there and then attacks Israel from Egypt, that could lead to an Israeli response into Egypt. They don't want that to happen. And they also. And Sisi and the leaders in Egypt also don't want Hamas to stir shit up and build support for Islamist parties within Egypt himself. So Trump just rolled this grenade into the Middle east with this plan and everyone else, I guess we're just watching to see if this thing is going to explode. It's a disaster.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yes. And you're right about what you said about Jordan. Look, King Abdullah is married to a Palestinian. There are millions of Palestinians who live in Jordan on the east bank. And that's often been a source of some tension because of Jordan's peace treaty with Israel. And so if King Abdullah were to participate in the ethnic cleansing of Gaza by taking in some of these 2 million Palestinians who don't want to leave Gaza, I really don't know if his regime could survive that. I think that the boiling frustration with what is already like, not a very good economic circumstance with already displaced Palestinians could get out of hand. And similarly in Egypt, where you have a brittle military dictatorship with a lot of anger seething underneath, that could explode too, particularly if you have Hamas introduced into that equation. It also is relevant, Tommy, that USAID funds a significant amount of assistance into Jordan that that government really relies on. And for all of Trump's talk that.

[Tommy Vitor]

They'Ve already budgeted, that they've already budgeted, that they think already have.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah. And so I guess it could go hat in hand to the Gulf States and ask them to kind of fill this gap that USAID provided. But it's not just money that USAID provides to Jordan. Its expertise, its help in running certain government programs that's being yanked away. Trump talks about rebuilding life for Gazans. Guess which agency does that? Usaid. And USAID already cannot really fulfill its obligations under the ceasefire agreement. Just a short term ceasefire agreement. When you think about the long term needs in Gaza to clear rubble, to demobilize and destroy unexploded bombs that are littering Gaza. Nevermind temporary housing and then long term housing. Without usaid, I don't know how that gets done.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it doesn't.

[Ben Rhodes]

We talked about demining being one of the things that Rubio cut off at the State Department. Cleaning up unexploded bombs. Well, there's no place in the world that needs that more than Gaza right now. So Trump is talking about these things while simultaneously handicapping the part of the government. Usaid that would do that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And the Jordanians host multiple US Military bases. Abdullah is like, what else do you want from me? But Ben, you mentioned that Trump has not talked to a single Palestinian. We did. We reached out to a Gaza named Shruk Ella to ask whether she would actually want to leave the Gaza Strip. Here's what she had to say. If I have the choice to leave Gaza over this decision, I will never. I did not leave Gaza during the genocide. We endured almost one year and a half under heavy compartment and under a killing machine and unstopping killing machine. And we choose to stay, not to evacuate Gaza. And I will not do this Eve. Like, if I got the choice to evacuate Gaza under the, you know, the demands of prisons in trouble. Ben, I just want to point out that we played a number of audio clips from Gazans over the last 16 months, and we've never once had one where you could not hear a drone, like, very audibly in the background.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, that was a very audible drone. And, you know, to her point, I know, Tom, if you saw when the ceasefire first went into effect, these long lines of Gazans kind of returning to their already destroyed homes. These are people that do not want to leave. They are absolutely determined to stay where they live because they know if they leave that they're not gonna be able to go back. And Trump himself said that. He said no right of return. And some of these families in Gaza, a lot of them were already displaced from other parts of what is now Israel and became refugees in 1948 or 1967. And they don't want to live in Egypt and Jordan and quote, unquote, modern homes or whatever, you know, Arizona stuff.

[Tommy Vitor]

Let's be real.

[Ben Rhodes]

Trump is talking about.

[Tommy Vitor]

He's pretending it's gonna be like, condos. It's gonna be a refugee camp. Right. They're gonna do it on the cheap like they do everything else.

[Ben Rhodes]

And I just wonder, Tommy, like, where this came from, this idea, because this is not something that had been floated anywhere else. You know, the Greenland thing has been hanging around. I have no idea. It begs the question, you know, because I don't think this came from, you know, Waltz, the National Security Advisor, or Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State. Is Trump just kind of coming up with this on the fly? Is someone whispering in his ear? Because this is a crazy fucking idea that is not popular anywhere. It's not like Americans want to own Gaza either. So it does raise the question of how is Trump making these decisions or making these pronouncements that have very real effects in the world.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, even Jared Kushner's ethnic cleansing plan would have pushed the Gazans into the desert in Israel, not into Jordan and Egypt. Ben, I want to get into this bigger motivation point in this section, because I think you're getting at something important here because you know, we're in the middle of this ceasefire. Listeners probably know this is phase one of what is supposed to be three phases. Phase one has Hamas releasing 25 living hostages in the bodies of eight hostages who were killed, while Israel releases 1500 Palestinian prisoners and they pull back their troops from some population centers. The two sides are about halfway through the agreed upon exchanges. However, Hamas's most recent release of three male Israeli hostages was shocking and it led to outrage across Israel because these men looked like Holocaust survivors, they were so emaciated and sickly. And adding to the horror, these fucking monsters in Hamas forced these men to read prepared speeches thanking their captors. And then one of the men released. Eli Sharabi returned home to learn that his wife and two daughters had been killed by Hamas on October 7th. So it's truly evil. And then at the same time, Hamas said they're going to delay the next hostage release because Israel is preventing Gazans from returning home to northern Gaza. They're targeting people with shelling and gunfire and not letting in certain kinds of humanitarian relief. So Hamas is saying they're not going to continue with the ceasefire agreement because Israel is breaking the terms. There have also been widespread allegations that Palestinian prisoners being held by Israel have been tortured. On top of that, Ben, because he is an arsonist, President Trump decided to weigh in. Let's listen to that.

[Donald Trump]

That's Israel's decision. But as far as I'm concerned, if all of the hostages aren't returned By Saturday at 12:00, I think it's an appropriate time. I would say cancel it and all bets are off and let hell break out, I'd say they ought to be returned by 12 o'clock on Saturday. And if they're not returned, all of them, not in drips and drabs, not 2 and 1 and 3 and 4 and 2.

[Tommy Vitor]

So, Ben, I want to point out there, what Trump is saying is not Netanyahu's position. Trump is saying all the hostages, so just complete phase one of the deal. Bibi is saying, yeah, Bibi is saying Hamas released the hostages this weekend that you're supposed to release or the ceasefire is over. He's basically saying, follow the terms of the deal that we all negotiated, that Trump helped get over the finish line. And so like we had said from day one, like, the ceasefire deal is very fragile. The Israeli right wing wants to blow it up and resume fighting. Hamas is led by, you know, this band of cruel monsters who seem to be doing whatever they can to, you know, give Bibi a pretext to walk away. And then Trump makes things worse every time he opens his mouth. And so the question, I'm wondering, Ben, along lines of what you're saying is Trump and Steve Wyckoff, his Middle east emissary, got this deal over the finish line. They deserve a ton of credit. But now Trump is upending his own deal with these comments, and the question is, why? Right. Like a week ago, he wanted the Nobel Peace Prize for getting the ceasefire done. Now he's saying things to push the two sides back to war. And the question is, what changed? And one theory I've heard is that Trump suddenly started viewing Gaza as a real estate deal, as this long term ownership plan for the United States. And he realized that continuing the war, even though it will lead to more death for the hostages, for Israeli soldiers and Palestinian civilians, is a necessary condition for his vision. Right, because the ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip will only get done by force. And Trump needs the IDF to do that work for him. And now he seems to be blowing up this ceasefire. So I don't know, it was like a very dark theory, but I'm trying to understand any other reason why he would suddenly blow up a deal that everyone was crediting for.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, it is odd. Part of me always thought that he partially wanted this deal announced right before he took office to kind of humiliate Joe Biden in some way. You know, despite the fact that Joe Biden went out and took credit for it and, you know, laughed at the reporter who asked who should get credit, the world looked at that and said, oh, it seems like this is finally happening then, like a Jimmy Carter 1980 situation, right? When the Iranians released all the hostages, when Reagan took office, it felt like a bit of a chef's kiss to the Biden administration from both Trump and Bibi that this was agreed on. Now, what we've seen, yes, everything you said is true, including the horrific behavior of Hamas and these releases trying to reassert itself in some ways as the dominating force in Gaza. And let's be fair, Israel has not kept the deal in a whole range of ways, whether it's delivering tents into Gaza or whether it's the treatment of prisoners who've been released from Israeli prisons. But I think you're onto something here, which is that Trump's interests, where they align with the Israeli right wing, the Israeli right wing does not want anything left in Gaza. They actually want to ethnically cleanse the place. They want to clear out the population there. They talk about this. I mean, Ben GVIR has talked about wanting to depopulate Gaza, wanting to settle at least northern Gaza. And if Trump really does have some strange fixation on building it up, I assume what's interesting to me, Tommy, is that the Israeli right wing has welcomed Trump's comments.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yes, big time. And I thought they might do the opposite. I thought they might be standing by it and be like, no, but they loved it.

[Ben Rhodes]

They cheered it that I had the same thought as you. And then they all cheered it. Smotrich, you know, we've talked about, the finance minister said this is the death of the Palestinian state. And because I think what they believe is not that if Trump, you know, builds wonderful real estate properties on the waterfront there, it's going to be Israelis who live in them. You know, and notice that Trump never says that. You know, he actually is clear in saying that Gazans, Palestinians will not live in the real estate development. And so I think where there's this kind of strange alignment is in Trump's head, whatever is going on there. He's thinking, we'll clear it out, the Palestinians will move out, we'll clear the rubble, we'll build a bunch of stuff, and then people will move in there. But I think the people that will move in there, at least in the minds of the Israeli right, are Israelis. And then they'll have the waterfront properties. And so there's this kind of. I don't even know if that's what Trump thinks, because he always talks about the people of the region moving there, May be singing about his buddies from the Emirates or Saudi having some nice beachfront property. But clearly there's some sense in Israel that this is good. This can give us the COVID of an American proposal to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, take ownership of it, and ultimately move in there. And I think that's what's happening.

[Tommy Vitor]

You could also imagine some big US Military base, port, et cetera, sitting in Gaza to replace maybe what we have in Qatar or some other places, or just add to them also. Just a quick note on the arsonist bucket, Ben. I mean, it is worth noting that last week Trump signed an executive order putting sanctions on officials at the International Criminal Court. These are, I think, like economic and travel sanctions, which would mean that ICC prosecutors can't come to the US to meet with people at the UN and do their jobs. Not surprising, really, that he did this because Trump sanctioned ICC officials in the first term. But it's just worth noting that Once again, the US Government is pretending to stand up for justice, but we're welcoming guys like Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant, the former Israeli defense minister, who have been charged with war crimes to Washington while punishing the people at this international body that is seeking accountability and justice. So good stuff.

[Ben Rhodes]

An international body that we welcomed when they put forward charges against Vladimir Putin for war crimes in Ukraine. And what's interesting about this is that if you look at the icc, this is a largely kind of Western created institution, right? European led created institution with US Participation. The US Never really joined it, obviously, but now what's happening is the champions of the ICC are increasingly in places like South Africa or places in the global South. And I think what we're going to see in the Trump administration writ large is the international community, whatever that used to be, is going to increasingly become non us. So all these institutions that were kind of created out of the kind of Post World War II system are going to start to have advocates and champions and supporters in the developing world. And the US Is going to become the rogue nation that is outside of international law. And that's going to happen, obviously, on trade, like we've talked about, as countries that are getting tired of getting tariffed by the US Start to align with China. So there's a cost, obviously, we've lost the moral high ground. When you're sanctioning the ICC and welcoming Netanyahu and Gallant, who have been charged with war crimes, to Washington, you have no moral high ground anymore. It's gone, it's over. We're not even pretending to be hypocrites anymore. We're just fully owning being the people that are arsonists. But I think what you'll see is that actually the center of gravity on issues of international law and international cooperation are going to move from Washington and in some cases even Europe to other parts of the world.

[Tommy Vitor]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are some of your relationship green flags. People that are nice, people that listen, people that don't look over your shoulder while you're talking to find someone else better to talk. I'm just describing things people do in D.C. i guess. But yeah, those are green flags. People that are genuinely caring and love their family and I don't know, but the reason we're talking about green flags is because we often hear about red flags that we should avoid. But what if we focus more on looking for green flags in friends and partners? If you're not sure what they look like, therapy can help you identify green flags. And actively practice them in your relationships and embody the green flag energy yourself. Whether you're dating, married, building a friendship, or just working on yourself, it's time to form relationships that love you back. This last decade has been a boon time for therapy. There's a lot of stress in the world, a lot of people on the TV all the time that we don't want to see, a lot of unneeded intra family conflict about things like politics that we used to not fight about. It's a great time to try therapy. If you haven't tried therapy, I feel like you're missing out because you can only help. You can only make you feel a little bit better. You can only find and access some part of yourself that maybe was closed off because of some bad feelings you might have had. Give it a shot. There's literally no downside to trying therapy. All you can do is help yourself. And BetterHelp will make it easy. It's fully online. They've been making therapy affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide. They have a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com crookedworld to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com/crooked world.

[Kash Patel]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Okay, here we'll do some updates on Trump's foreign policy team. So the Senate took a procedural vote to advance Tulsi Gabbard's nomination to be Director of National Intelligence. I think she got 52 votes, so that seems like a done deal and it sucks. However, Ben Cash Patel, the nominee to Trump's nominee to be the next FBI Director, may have hit a little turbulence. We'll see. First of all, there's just been a bunch of reporting about Cash Patel's bizarre employment history. That includes working for Qatar, a Chinese clothing company called Shein, and what the AP calls a quote, foreign arms conglomerate named the Czechoslovak Group. That's a great name for an arms conglomerate.

[Ben Rhodes]

A country that no longer exists.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's incredible.

[Ben Rhodes]

You and I should work for the Yugoslavian group or something.

[Tommy Vitor]

Just sold grenades instead of underwear. The Washington Post also reported on a $25,000 payment that Kash Patel got from a filmmaker who's a Russian US Dual national, but makes, like, you know, programs promoting deep state conspiracies. This guy also released a film called the Maidan Massacre that tried to counter the pretty well established findings that pro Russian mercenaries killed a bunch of antigovernment activists during the 2014 protests in Ukraine. He was, he was very opposed to the resistance groups in Ukraine, so not weird at all there. And then earlier today, Ben, Senator Dick Durbin from Illinois sent a letter to the Department of Justice Inspector General saying that Kash Patel, quote, has been personally directing the ongoing purge of career civil servants, end quote, at the FBI. According to Durbin, Patel is relaying orders for these purges through Stephen Miller. This is a very big deal because during his hearing before the Judiciary panel, Cash Patel had this to say.

[Kash Patel]

Are you aware of any plans or discussions to punish in any way, including termination, FBI agents or personnel associated with Trump investigations?

[Ben Rhodes]

I am not aware.

[Tommy Vitor]

Thank you. I think that's a question from Cory Booker. So, Ben, this, this feels to me like a bit of an existential moment for the Senate. Like this guy is not remotely qualified for the job. He has foreign financial entanglements that would spike literally anyone from getting a security clearance anywhere. And now he seems to have perjured himself. Like, what are you guys going to do about it?

[Ben Rhodes]

You.

[Tommy Vitor]

Could you exist anymore or not?

[Ben Rhodes]

Could. You could not get hired for the lowest level job at the FBI with those kinds of foreign entanglements that Cash Patel has, first of all, second of all, and I guess we have to be careful now. We're talking about this, Tommy. But there are purges happening at the FBI. We know this. It's being reported. Okay? So, you know, thousands of letters going out to anybody that worked on a January 6th associated case, whether or not they chose to work on the case or not, the whole divisions being shut down, dealing with things like foreign influence that get at Russian interference in American politics, which obviously is Kash Patel's hobby horse about the quote, unquote, Russia hoax, this is happening. And Kash Patel has been hanging out with Trump. He was down in Mar a Lago. The idea that Kash Patel, as he testified, and here's where I'm. Let's just say it's hard for me to imagine that he had no idea that any of this was gonna happen. And he told the Senate under oath that he had no idea that anything was gonna happen at the FBI. I mean, do you have any self respect? I mean, this is the question that comes up again and again with Senate Republicans, but do you really believe that? I mean, already you're twisting yourself in the knots to pretend that this person is qualified to run the FBI and to pretend that it's not, like, a danger to law enforcement in this country to put in place a deeply vindictive person that was hawking supplements and working for the czechoslov group or whatever a few months ago or whenever it was. This is a huge warning sign because as Durbin said in his letter, which, again, the letter isn't remarkable information, this is all happening before our eyes, this kind of purge mentality of the FBI. What happens when this guy is actually in power? Like, he's not even in power yet and this is already happening.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. In addition to the purges, I mean, the Washington Post had a report on how candidates for national security jobs are facing loyalty tests during job interviews. So there were two people up for intelligence jobs who were asked if the 2020 election was stolen and if January 6th was an inside job. They both said no to those questions and were not hired. And also, according to the Post, over at the FBI, the loyalty questions include, quote, who were the Real Patriots on January 6, who won the 2020 election? Who was your real boss? So, you know, this shouldn't surprise us because this kind of, like, ideological vetting was a core part of the Project 2025 project. But it's pretty goddamn worrisome. And I just, like. I don't know. It's just. We read the craziest shit every single day, and no one seems to do anything about it.

[Ben Rhodes]

And no one. And I don't do a lot of media in this age. But there is this kind of weird thing, like, Kash Patel somehow qualified because he worked in law enforcement. This is not in any way normal. And the one thing I'd add, Tommy, is I was actually talking to somebody who works at the FBI, not in a deep state way, just like. And the point that this person was making is that the FBI workforce is probably, if not the most conservative in the government. Like, pretty close to it. Like, they're not. This is not the. Let's be honest. I guess it's not usaid. Exactly. Or cfpb. Right. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or usaid. I never asked those people how they voted. They probably are more Democrat than Republican. The FBI, when we were in office, we were not winning any elections in the FBI. We were getting blown out in the FBI. And maybe some people in the FBI have suggested that The Headquarters of D.C. office is a little bit more excuse, a little bit more liberal, but not that much. I mean, and the people.

[Tommy Vitor]

Not a lot of pronouns in email signatures.

[Ben Rhodes]

There's not a lot of pronouns in email signatures. So they're purging like right wing people. That's what's so deep about this purge. Yeah, it's not enough to be right wing. You have to be a complete Kool Aid drinking loyalist. And that's what's so scary. It's not actually ideology left, right. It is just Trump, Trump, Trump. That's what this is all about.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And like, they're also stripping away security clearances from former Biden officials, even Joe Biden himself. And I'll be honest, I don't really give a shit. But in practice, it does mean that, like, if you're National Security Advisor, you can't call in Jake Sullivan, your predecessor, and ask him about a covert action program that started during the Biden administration or call Tony Blinken about a set of negotiations that occurred with, you know, some foreign country when he was in power. So it's just like, you're hurting yourself here. It's fucking stupid.

[Ben Rhodes]

And the thing about the security clearances and the purges is how do you come back from this? You know, a Democrat comes in, they're going to feel the need to remove all these Trump people, and they're not going to want to give security clearances to the Stephen Millers of the world. And all of a sudden, the norm becomes this kind of winner take all treatment of the federal government in areas like national security and law enforcement, where you want people to have decades of experience. It's much better to have FBI agents who've been on the job for 15 years, then, like, it turns over every four years. That's what concerns me, too, is that this is not stuff that you can climb back from.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I agree. And Ben, you alluded to this, but, you know, while we're talking about all this stuff, Kash Patel's boss, Attorney General Pam Bondi, is doing all these things to make it easier for foreign agents to influence US politics. So on day one of her tenure at doj, Bondi issued a series of executive orders that will limit prosecutions under the Foreign Agent Registration act, or Farah. So that'll basically make it easier for foreign autocrats to secretly lobby the US Government. Bondi herself, by the way, is no stranger to getting paid under Farah. She was registered under law for Qatar and got, I think, $115,000 a month to lobby for them. So interesting that country's coming up a lot. She's also getting rid of the FBI's Foreign Influence Task Force, which is designed to prevent. Prevent foreign election interference. And she's disbanding task forces that looked for and confiscated kleptocrat assets and worked to return those stolen assets. So this is going to severely curtail how, you know, our ability to, you know, find a boat that some Russian oligarch parked in the Med and, you know, take it and seize it and sell it off and return it to the Ukrainians, for example. She's also going to curtail how the Foreign Corrupt Practices act is enforced. Trump signed an executive order on Monday directing the DOJ to pause prosecutions under the FCPA, which has been on the books since the late 70s and forbids Americans from bribing foreign government officials. This unit is now only going to focus on cases involving bribes to cartels in transnational criminal organizations. So it's like a blurry of stuff there, Ben. And to understand what this all means, we caught up with Casey Michelle, the author of the book Foreign Agents How American Lobbyists and Lawmakers Threaten Democracy around the World. And he's also the director of the Combating Kleptocracy Program at the Human Rights Foundation. We had him on the show last fall. Great interview. Check it out. But here's a clip from him.

[F]

As far as I can tell, this was the single worst day in terms of the broader history of American anti corruption efforts. And I don't want to sound too doom and gloom, but I am not optimistic whatsoever about anti corruption moves coming forward from the new administration. This was, to a certain extent, expected, but it's still one thing to expect it and another thing to actually see it play out in real time. And I think the thing that's most shocking for me is that they're not just even going through the kind of rhetorical approaches of saying, yes, we'll continue these prosecutions, yes, we'll continue this focus. I mean, they're getting rid of some of the key areas of success in the United States of America's fight against corruption and kleptocracy. They are eliminating completely these task forces that have been targeting oligarchs and dictators and dirty money around the world. I mean, they're not even making a pretense of any of this. In that sense, I am somewhat shocked that they're not even paying lip service. They're just taking a sledgehammer and a wrecking ball to all of this, full stop.

[Tommy Vitor]

So you Know, big week for international bribery.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. I think the thing to know about is that, you know, we've covered this on this podcast for, you know, seven years that I've been here, that a lot of these Trump people, they circulate in this world, this kind of murky world of doing business in places like the Gulf or Southeast Asia or Turkey, you know, where bribe gets you this far and where. Actually, I think there is a belief that the US Is somehow disadvantaged by not being able to play dirty.

[Tommy Vitor]

And Trump said as much in the Oval Office.

[Ben Rhodes]

I'm just gonna name it here. Like, they would like it to be a situation where you can walk in with a suitcase full of cash and get something done faster that way. So I actually don't think this is them just seeing this as a kind of democracy agenda that they want to cut back. They are dismantling the parts of the government that aim to prevent corruption. This is not even just deprioritizing. This is like shutting the whole thing down. And I don't really know what world we enter, but where I think, as one of the things we're trying to do on this pod under Trump 2.0, kind of pull the thread here on what's happening. They're turning the US into the kind of country where this is normalized, where you go around, you spread some money around. It's okay, they were corrupt. We're taking advantage of crypto over here to make some money. We've got these kind of family members that are in the government or not in the government who might represent us or not, kind of flying around the Gulf doing stuff like Jared does. We've got people that are kind of associates of the Trump administration. They're not like Elon Musk. Is he a government employee?

[Tommy Vitor]

Tom Barrack, for example.

[Ben Rhodes]

Tom Barrack, you know, like, so there's this whole industry around Trump that is very much about deal making internationally, and they don't want, like a lot of spotlight on corruption. Now, to be clear, this is totally aligned with the kind of kleptocratic world that a Vladimir Putin. I mean, these are divisions of the US Government that did things like crack down on Russian oligarch money and money laundering and a lot of the dark money that kind of swashes around and ends up funding far right politics. So this is both a kind of business interest for some people, but also the political interest of a lot of the kleptocratic money out there in the global economy ends up washing around kind of far right parties in Europe and other places. So this is a feature, not a bug, is the point. This is a part of the governing ethos of this Trump administration in a way that they might have aspired to the first time around. I mean, it's. It's almost quaint.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, yeah, no, but that's a good point, because this is like a great example of how everything is accelerationist. Because there was this. There was this New Yorker piece in 2017 where Trump was ranting about the FCPA to Rex Tillerson.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Who as the CEO of Exxon, was very familiar with, you know, the fact that bribes get shit done to get access to oil fields abroad. And there was, you know, in this New Yorker piece, Tillerson told Trump, like, actually, sir, like, we should bring the world up to our standards. Right. And that kind of, you know, look, adults in the room, I think, kind of prevented some of these excesses. But Trump 2.0, they're like, fuck it, FCPA gone.

[Ben Rhodes]

I guess we gotta feel bad about making fun of the Committee to Save America, Tommy.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I know, man, but.

[Ben Rhodes]

Cause I will say, remember how quaint it feels now to. You know, we used to be pissed that the Saudis would spend a lot of money like Trump. Hotels like that is literally some change in a tip jar compared to the amount of money that could move around if you do away with all these constraints.

[Tommy Vitor]

Just buy that Trump coin, baby. That's all you need. We're going to take a quick break, but in case you didn't know, Pod Save the World's got its own YouTube channel now. You can find all our interviews, clips, exclusive content, including Roads Map, a Foreign Policy 101 series hosted by Ben Rhodes and our own producer, Alona Minkowski. In the latest episode, they look at Trump's plan for mass deportations and changes to the US Military and how history warns us about moves like these. Just search Pod Save the World on YouTube and hit subscribe so you don't miss it out. You'll get all the good content there. Speaking of exclusive content, check out Dan Pfeiffer's latest episode of Polar Coaster. He unpacks the newest survey results from Quinnipiac University on why the Democratic Party is the most unpopular it's been since 2008. Thanks, Dan. Get access to this exclusive series ad free episodes of Pod Save the World and more by signing [e-mail] friends or subscribing directly on the Pod Save the World Apple podcast feed. For a limited time, enjoy a 7 day free trial. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience and sell anything from products to content to time all in one place, all on your own terms. Introducing Design Intelligence from Squarespace Combining two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to unlock your strongest creative potential, Design Intelligence empowers anyone to build a beautiful, more personalized website tailored to their unique needs and craft a bespoke digital identity to use across one's entire online presence. I assume that just means catfishing? Yes, that's what it means. Like kind of a Matteo thing. Start a fully custom on brand website with Squarespace's latest AI enhanced website builder, Blueprint AI. After a few questions, our interactive design system transforms basic information about your brand or business into an elevated online presence. With curated premium quality content automatically added and matched to your profile and aesthetic. Squarespace makes it easy to sell access on your website like online courses, vlogs, videos and membership. Earn recurring revenue by getting up your content behind a paywall. Simply set the price and choose whether to charge one time fee or subscription for access. Upload video content, organize your video library and showcase your content on beautiful video pages. You can even sell access to your video library by adding a paywall to your content. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial when you're ready to Launch. Go to squarespace.comworld to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.comworld auto insurance can all seem.

[Kash Patel]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Let'S switch gears here Ben, because JD Vance, our extremely online vice president, who I think doesn't get invited to the real meetings, so he just tweets all day. He put on his big boy pants. He went overseas and took his first trip to Europe. There JD gave his first international speech since becoming Vice President at an AI summit in France that included a bunch of European leaders, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and some tech leaders. Vance declared that America will remain the world's leader on AI and he scolded everybody who is worried about AI safety. Let's listen now. Just because we're the leader doesn't mean we want to or need to go it alone, of course. And let me be emphatic about this point. America wants to partner with all of you and we want to embark on the AI revolution before us with the spirit of openness and collaboration. But to create that kind of trust, we need international regulatory regimes that fosters the creation of AI technology rather than strangles it. And we need our European friends in particular to look to this new frontier with optimism. Optimism rather than trepidation. Stirring. He also took a bunch of swipes at Europe for going after US Tech firms and social media companies saying, quote, it is one thing to prevent a predator from preying on a child on the Internet. It is something quite different to prevent a grown man or woman from accessing opinions that the government thinks is misinformation. End quote. Every country at this summit signed a declaration that said they want to ensure AI is open, inclusive, transparent, ethical, safe, secure and trustworthy, taking into account international frameworks for all, except for the US And Britain. I guess we abstain from that language. Seems pretty vanilla, but I guess we're think we're better. But Ben, like the broader kind of mood music for JD Vance's trip to Europe was Trump threatening to put tariffs on the EU and everyone waiting to see what the hell Trump is going to do when it comes to the war in Ukraine. Vance is going to meet with Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky at the Munich Security Summit on Friday. So maybe we'll get more information then. And while JD didn't get the warmest welcome in France, there was a whole conference of Trump fanboys who gathered in Madrid last weekend for the Patriots for Europe conference. It's a far right gathering that included like every far right leader on the continent. And they all were praising Trump and talking about the need to make Europe great again. Here was Hirt Wilders, a right wing Dutch politician who has been a far right figure for about 20 years. He's anti Islamic, he is anti immigrant, he's terrible. Here he is talking about Trump. The world is changing rapidly before our eyes and we are at the forefront of this transformation. And as President Trump ushers a golden age for America, we must ask ourselves, are we ready to do the same in Europe? And the answer, as you just said, indeed is yes. We will make Europe great again because we are victors. Some other speakers included Viktor Orban, Marine Le Pen, a bunch of other right wing wing nuts. Ben, it's interesting to me that the Trump position on AI is just kind of like polar opposite of Biden's. Like the last summit that I think Kabula Harris went to was about AI safety and putting guardrails on the technology. I guess the Trump people just don't think we should do that. I don't know if that's from some genuine feelings or just kind of trolling Biden still. I don't know. What'd you make of it?

[Ben Rhodes]

No, I think it has to come. I think it comes from some of the more uber libertarian tech bros that J.D.

[Tommy Vitor]

That'S true.

[Ben Rhodes]

And Trump hang out with because they see Europe as the enemy. Because Europe, the European Union is a regulatory superpower, so they're not big AI companies out of Europe. Mistral in France is like one exception. But there are a lot of issues that people are concerned about. If you just take national security, people are concerned about AI in nuclear weapons command and control. By the way, just a side note, Tommy, that I was thinking as I was reading about Doge and Doge is instituting AI and all these government places like wait for the moment when some Doge bros like big balls or whomever put AI in charge of like the nuclear stockpile, you know, I'd kind of like some scientists to be in charge of that. But put that aside. Biological weapons, you don't want Chat GPT to be producing, you know, recipes for 25 COVID variants. Obviously privacy concerns, concerns about deep fake disinformation campaigns. You know, Vladimir Putin creating an alternative reality to destabilize a country by showing videos of selling that's not happening. And then, you know, societal disruption, economic disruptions. And so the EU is a regulatory state and Biden saw China as a competitor on AI. Biden was like, I gotta stop the Chinese from catching up to us on AI. JD Vance's speech almost suggests that the European Union and the European Commission is the enemy because they might so weird. God forbid they try to regulate these AI safety issues. And what is so whiplashy to these Europeans, Tommy, is that Biden asked them to take on AI safety. Like the British hosted the first AI safety summit. And now after being patted on the back for taking leadership on AI safety, they have Americans coming and yelling at them about that. And so it must make them want to say like, well, fuck you, we'll go deal with the Chinese in AI. I just want to say on that right wing summit, the make Europe great again when the fascists and neo Nazis and when they're happy, it's not good. So the kind of rally that we saw there, that's a sign that global politics, the momentum is not in the right place right now. And we all have to figure out a way to change that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, we'll talk about it next week. But I'm very anxious about these upcoming German elections for a variety of reasons. All right, we got a couple more things we'll move faster through. So last week then, President Trump signed an executive order cutting off foreign aid to South Africa. But the EO also offered to resettle white South Africans, who are, quote, victims of unjust racial discrimination, end quote, as refugees in America. Here's what Trump had to say when he was signing this eo.

[Donald Trump]

The South African situation is very, very dangerous and very bad for a lot of people. There's tremendously bad things going on, including the cops, confiscation of property and worse, much worse than that. You know what I'm talking about. And we're not making any payment until we find out what's going on in South Africa. Yes, please.

[Tommy Vitor]

So here's the backstory on this. Trump is mad about a law signed in late January by South African President Cyril Ramaphosa that under specific circumstances allows seizure of private land without compensation. South Africa's land ownership is wildly inequitable due to lingering effects of apartheid. White South Africans make up just 7% of the country, but own 72% of private farmland. As the New York Times pointed out, this law has a bunch of checks and balances to guard against abuse. And the most likely case scenario is that it would be used to seize land that was not being used. But the announcement, you know, was easily folded into this long running conspiracy theory on the right that there is this widespread seizure of land from white farmers in South Africa and even an anti white genocide happening. Ben, I remember talking to you about this back in 2019. Tucker Carlson had started doing a bunch of segments on this alleged wave of murders of white farmers in South Africa. Trump saw one of those segments. He tweeted about it. He ordered Mike Pompeo, then the Secretary of State, to investigate. Guess they didn't dig much up because we're back at it. But other far right leaders have taken up this cause, too. They've offered special visas to white South Africans. That includes this guy Peter Dutton in Australia, this right winger there in Vladimir Putin. So, as usual, good company for Trump this time. Secretary General Marco Rubio jumped into the fray, tweeting that he's going to boycott this year's G20 meeting in Johannesburg. This is verbatim from Rubio's tweet, quote, South Africa is doing very bad things, expropriating private property, using G20 to promote, quote, solidarity, equality and sustainability. In other words, DEI and climate change. My job is to advance America's national interest, not waste taxpayer money or coddle anti Americanism. That's the end of his tweet. Marco, one other option here is you could show up and tell people you disagree. You are the America's top diplomat. Maybe you could talk about it. But anyway, Elon Musk then weighed in. He tweeted at Ramaphosa saying, quote, why do you have openly racist ownership laws? So lingering question here of how much of this is being driven by Elon Musk from who is originally from South Africa, kind of whispering in Trump's ear about all this shit. Ben, I did want to just note that when Trump was asked if refugees from Gaza could come to the U.S. he said, no, Gaza's 5,000 miles away. It's inconvenient. They'd rather, rather settle in the region. But when white South African refugees who live on the other side of the planet, like, literally are apparently welcome in the U.S. you know, one might wonder why they're treating so differently.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, this is actually a really important story to get at the heart of what this whole MAGA thing is all about, because it's obviously got a deeply racial component. I mean, to build on your Gaza analogy, Tommy, when, you know, a country in which there was apartheid and just brutal systemic repression and 70% of land is owned by white farmers who make up 7% of the population, when a portion of that land that is nobody's living on is reallocated, that's a white genocide. But when you blow up all of Gaza and destroy all of it and ethnically cleanse it, it's called like a redevelopment program or something, you know, so they applied their own, you know, feelings about South African white people to Gaza. Imagine what that would look like. I think just to add, you know, something to this, in addition to the Elon Musk of it all, like, how much is this white South African calling the shots? As you point out, Trump, though, said some of this in the first term. I think that this is also Trump is trying to, with the people around him, recreate the history of the last, let's say, post Cold War era, the last 35 years. So for people like you and me, older millennials, the high point of moral achievement in the world was Nelson Mandela becoming the president of South Africa. And they're literally trying to reverse engineer that and say, no, no, no, actually, the white people in South Africa were actually the victims. And it's a Mirror image of what they've done in this country. Like white people have somehow been the victims of racism. And I think that the true believers, the Stephen Miller types, they actually believe this. And if you look at what authoritarian regimes do, they do try to kind of recreate history itself. And so I think they want to undo the entire liberal consensus around what was good. You know, it was a good thing that apartheid ended and Nelson Mandela came out of prison and became president of South Africa. They'll probably be pulling like Invictus off of shelves. We can't watch that Mate Damien movie anymore. Yeah, but I know I'm making a light of it, but it's a serious point. Like they're hyper focused in the same way that people on the left and liberals have focused on South Africa as like a morality play in a good way. They're trying to reverse that from their own perspective.

[Tommy Vitor]

And it's super dark and it's just glaring. It's just so brazen and obvious.

[Ben Rhodes]

By the way, the G20 is the most important collection of countries in the world.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's just go to the G20 for.

[Ben Rhodes]

Marco Rubio to not go to that. It's just a cell phone clown.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, this is a clown. Then, Ben, let's turn to the Philippines because there's some truly wild happening there that we wanted to touch on. So first some background. There's two political dynasties in the Philippines. There's the Marcoses and the Dutertes. Those two groups joined forces in 2022 when Ferdinand Marcos Jr. Who is the son of deposed kleptocrat and dictator Ferdinand Marcos and his wife Imelda Marcos, who owned all the shoes he was elected president. His running mate turned vice president was Sarah Duterte, the daughter of ex President Rodrigo Duterte. Remember, Rodrigo Duterte was the guy who had a security forces massacre random people and just call it a war on drugs. So it turns out the political alliance of these two families was short lived because they disagreed on, among other things, how to deal with China in the South China Sea. Marcos wants to cozy up to the us. Duterte wanted to cozy up to China and Russia. And long story short, these families now loathe each other. And not in kind of like a grin and bear kind of way in like a I'm going to actually kill you kind of way. In November, in what the AP described as a pre dawn online news conference, Duterte said she had arranged to have Marcos, his wife and the speaker of the House of Representatives assassinated if she herself was Killed. Unless you think she was kidding. She clarified that she was in fact not joking. So for that threat, some other corruption allegations we won't get into, and for not condemning China's aggression in the South China Sea, she was impeached last week by a pretty wide margin in the House of Representatives. And then next up, the Senate turns into an impeachment court where you need a 2/3 majority to remove Sarah Duterte from office. If that were to happen, Duterte would be banned from public office for good. And she couldn't, couldn't run again in the next election. Ben, I bet a lot of American vice presidents have thought, I'd love to just whack the boss. I don't know that any of them have said it out loud quite like this, but it was pretty, I don't know, bizarre story.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I mean, totally insane. And I mean, a sign that this idea that you could have this unholy alliance from the corrupt Marcos family and the kind of brutalist Duterte family was always perhaps going to be kind of short lived.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, a real bummer.

[Ben Rhodes]

But the bummer is really just the lack of democracy in the Philippines. It's like two warring families essentially competing for like power and wealth and spoils. And I would like to see the Philippines, a place that was about the people power movement again to build on what we were talking about with Nelson Mandela. That was a good thing. When Marcos was ousted by people power and you had civil society. I hope that that can regenerate because all the people are seeing is that the one thing that these people don't seem to care about is Filipinos. It's just about power. It's just about what I have, the respect I'm treated with. So I'm not sure I'm rooting for in this blood feud. But I guess from the US perspective of the narrow foreign policy interests, Marcos is more aligned than Duterte's. But yeah, this is. It's hard to figure out whose side you're on here.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it's a good point. I guess we're just rooting for new leadership.

[Ben Rhodes]

New leadership would be nice. That's. That's what I'm rooting for.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, some fresh blood. And then finally, Ben, don't you hate it when you randomly uncover 2400 files related to a 61 year old case that traumatized an entire nation and fueled conspiracy theories in one very good Oliver Stone movie for decades? I know I do. But apparently in prepping for Donald Trump's executive order to release Files related to the JFK assassination. The FBI dug up a couple thousand old files that they just kind of lost in the shuffle. It is unclear what these files contain and if they'll change anything about our understanding of JFK's assassination. But all the records related to this assassination are supposed to be in the National Archives and there's a lot of them already there, like 5 million. So 3,000 have not been released. If it all goes according to Trump's executive order, we will be able to see Those files on March 9, I think, you know, past excuses we've heard from administrations were the remaining declassified files, you know, included names of people who are still living, for example, and that's why maybe they weren't releasing them, but I don't know. I'm glad they're getting this out. It's crazy that the FBI just found 2,400 files that they just had misplaced, I guess about the JFK assassination.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, it doesn't exactly put the conspiracy theories to rest, you know, I mean, sure doesn't. If I have to give Mr. Trump credit for one thing, it's that his approaching of the presidency as like fantasy camp is usually horrible. Cuz it's usually like, I would like my own generals and I'd like my own FBI, but the one place where I kind of respect it is it's like, I want to know who really killed jfk. You know, I kind of wish we'd done this. You know, people always ask me, you know, did you get the briefing on who killed Kennedy? Did you get the briefing on the aliens? And I'm kind of embarrassed to say, I actually never thought we could ask for that.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, even if you ask doesn't mean they're going to give you shit. That's where the deep state's got some power. They don't have to tell you what they don't.

[Ben Rhodes]

And the Kennedy thing is the root of the whole idea of a deep state. Right? I mean, I don't know, man. I don't believe the Warren Commission. I'm not saying I believe the full Oliver Stone version either, but you just get a sense that we were not told the whole truth here. So I do hope this gets out. Maybe that's one good thing that could come out of the Trump presidency.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I do. I want him to release these documents. I think he should also release all the Epstein files. Interesting that Mr. Trump.

[Ben Rhodes]

Maybe Mr. Trump could release those as well. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back we will solve the JFK assassination mystery and you'll hear my interview with Congresswoman Sarah Jacobs. We're going to talk about USAID in Africa, so stick around for that Posse of the World is brought to you by Lumen did you know that when your metabolism is working property, you will feel the benefits in literally every aspect of your life? Lumen is a valuable tool that gives you insights to create a healthy metabolism for your body. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach. It's a device that measures your metabolism through your breath, and on the app, it tells you if you're burning fat or carbs. And it gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workouts, sleep, and even stress management. All you have to do is breathe into your lumen first thing in the morning and you'll know what's going on with your metabolism, whether you're burning mostly fats or carbs. Then Lumen gives you a personalized nutrition plan for that day based on your measurements. You can also breathe into it before and after workouts and meals so you know exactly what's going on in your body in real time. And Lumen will give you tips to keep on top of your game. You blow into it in the morning and it's like you're 43. It's like 1. You have death breath. 2. Brush your teeth, you have little kids, you seem tired. 3. Eat more protein. No, there's a bunch of people here who are obsessed with their lumens. They will use it in the morning. They'll use it before and after workouts to kind of see how it went. Just another kind of interesting data point that you can use to keep yourself healthy or to, you know, get your body operated on a higher level. So your metabolism is your body's engine, is how your body turns the food you eat into fuel that keeps you going because your metabolism is at the center of everything your body does. Optimal metabolic health translates to a bunch of benefits, including easier weight management, improved energy levels, better fitness results, better sleep. Lumen gives you recommendations to improve your metabolic health. Take the next step to improving your health. Go to Lumen Me world to get 20% off your lumen. That's L U M E N me World for 20% off your purchase. Thank you Lumen for sponsoring this episode. Hey guys, have you heard of Gold Belly? It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants across the country, anywhere nationwide. I've never found a more perfect gift than food. They ship Chicago deep dish pizza New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls and even Ina Garten's famous cakes. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your Life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code gift. Our guest today is Kongsu Sarah Jacobs from the great state of California. She's a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee and the Subcommittee on Africa and the Subcommittee on Global Health, Human Rights and International Organizations. So some real timely expertise there. Thank you so much for joining the show.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Tommy Vitor]

So as we've talked about on the show, and as you know better than anyone, the Trump administration has spent the last few weeks just gutting the United States Agency for International Development or usaid, gutting foreign aid. It is going to have a disproportionately large impact on a bunch of countries in Africa like South Sudan, Sudan, Somalia, the Congo, et cetera. What are you hearing from people on the ground about the impact these aid, they call them a freeze. But I think we all should assume that their permanent cuts are already having.

[Sarah Jacobs]

We are already seeing more people facing starvation. We are already seeing more people, you know, not having access to the life saving health care that they need. And that has real implications for our national security. Right. There's a Ebola outbreak in Uganda, for instance, and normally USAID would be helping to screen passengers before they come to the US but because of the funding freeze, they haven't been able to do that. I've talked to humanitarian organizations on the ground who say they have food literally rotting in warehouses. And in DRC, for instance, they have about 800,000 people who need that food that would be fed by that food that they just can't actually deliver it. So we are seeing these real implications on the ground. We're seeing even the things that Secretary Rubio says has gotten a waiver, like life saving treatment like pepfar, which is the HIV AIDS programming. What we're hearing from folks on the ground is that because the payment system still doesn't work work, they are actually the waivers are basically fake and that, you know, people are not getting their life saving HIV treatment. We're seeing some things that could actually cause, for instance, drug resistant strains of HIV if people don't receive the medicine that they need. So again, like real people on the ground are hurting and this has real serious negative implications for US national security.

[Tommy Vitor]

I really just can't get past the first thing you said, which is that there's an Ebola outbreak and we're now not screening inbound passengers to the United States because of this freeze that seems like a five alarm fire. I remember well when there was an Ebola outbreak back in. What was that? 2014, 2015.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yep.

[Tommy Vitor]

And the Obama administration surged resources abroad to help combat it. And Donald Trump took to the television every single day to demagogue the issue and attack him. But now it sounds like we're just kind of flying blind when it comes to an Ebola outbreak.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Well, that's exactly right. Because what USAID does is it works with CDC to help strengthen the health systems in other countries, like in Uganda, and to help make sure they're doing what they need to, to stem this outbreak and to screen passengers. And all of that funding is now cut and isn't. There's no plans to restart it. So, yeah, it's, it's really dangerous.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, there's a Marburg outbreak out there too. Don't, don't Google that if you want to sleep at night. You mentioned pepfar, this wildly successful bipartisan HIV AIDS treatment program created by President Bush. I don't think arguably the best thing he did as president, probably. Period. What are Republicans you talk to you serve with telling you about the cuts to pepfar. I mean, this was a program that had basically universal support. And now they're watching it being gutted. Are they, Are they outraged? Are they worried?

[Sarah Jacobs]

This is probably one of the most frustrating parts, is that Republicans will privately tell me how outraged they are, but only a handful have been willing to say so publicly. And, and I introduced a bill that will protect USAID from Elon Musk's takeover. And it is a very straightforward bill. It just says that any reforms to USAID should be consistent with US national security and that no funds, it's illegal to dismantle it without an act of Congress and no funds should be used to dismantle it. If I had introduced this bill in December, it would have been, had broad bipartisan support. It would have passed with flying colors. And now we haven't been able to get a single Republican to sign on. And honestly, we use Secretary Rubio's own language in the bill to show just how hypocritical this all is. Because, like, they claim they care. Every single Republican on the Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party signed off on a report that says that fully funding USAID is one of the most important things they can do to compete with China. And every single one of those Republicans now is silent.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it is infuriating.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

You can look through Marco Rubio's old tweets where he was singing USAID's praises and now he's gutting it. The the Wall Street Journal had a recent report on how the aid freeze could hamper effort to prevent cartels from trafficking drugs into the U.S. for example, in Colombia, they reported on how there's 18 Black Hawk helicopters provided by the U.S. to use for anti narcotics missions. And these helicopters are now grounded because Trump, through this, you know, foreign aid cut, cut off their fuel and cut off their maintenance. You represent San Diego, which is right on the border with Mexico. I know combating drug trafficking and cartels is a huge focus in your area. I mean, do you think, did this Rubio and other leaders in the DEA not realize that this broad based freeze is going to hurt their efforts to target these cartels who I believe we just declared terrorists?

[Sarah Jacobs]

Well, I think what we're seeing is that Secretary Rubio had no idea the real ramifications of this. And I think it's clear that my colleagues on the other side of the aisle don't really understand how foreign assistance works. And we know that because Nancy Mace challenged me to get ready with me video about it. And I was happy to explain how this prevents terrorism. But the fact of the matter is foreign assistance is more than just the important life saving health care. It's more than just economic development. A lot of this is the very kind of support we give other governments to literally do the security things we need them to do to keep us safe. So, for instance, foreign military sales, for instance, support for international narcotics and law enforcement training and support to other countries. These are all things that have been cut along with this foreign assistance freeze. And I think what we're seeing is actually that the Trump administration wants to treat the cartels and, and the, you know, fentanyl issue as a military issue. That's why he did the FTO designation. But that's actually the opposite of what we need. Tommy, as I know, you know, when you do these FTO designations in other countries, a lot of the impact is actually that it makes it harder for nonprofit groups to work with the affected community because they're so worried about, you know, potentially having law enforcement and these nonprofits are who help us with migrant flows and help provide services so migrants don't need to fall into the cartel. But also we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places that a military first approach to this kind of problem doesn't work. And the last thing we need is an Afghanistan on our southern border, 20 minutes from San Diego, where I represent.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. 20 years of failed policy is a good. A good what not to do list there, by the way. There was a. She challenged you to a Get Ready with Me video on terrorism.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yes.

[Tommy Vitor]

What. What does that even mean?

[Sarah Jacobs]

She asked me to do a Get Ready with me video to explain why I support terrorism when I tweeted in support of usaid. And so I did one explaining to her how USAID actually prevents terrorism, which is, you know, a big part of what it does, providing economic development and governance and all these other things that help make sure people don't actually get recruited into terrorist groups.

[Tommy Vitor]

Serving in the House is wild. I hope you have all your vaccinations, because shit's getting weird out there. Okay. You're a member of the Subcommittee on Africa. You, I think, very admirably have put a lot of focus and work into ending the civil war in Sudan. A lot of experts you talk to say that, you know, key to ending the war is cutting off support to the rsf, which is this main rebel group fighting. The Sudanese military is cutting off support from the uae, the United Arab Emirates. Can you talk about how the US can help do that and what role you think the UAE is currently playing in this conflict?

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah. So Sudan is currently the largest humanitarian crisis in the world, the largest displacement crisis in the world. We're seeing famine in lots of parts, and famine like conditions in other parts of Sudan. I last year, went to visit the Chad Sudanese border and met with Sudanese refugees. And, you know, I worked at the UN before I came to Congress. I've been to my fair share of refugee camps and meeting with refugees. I've never seen people so traumatized. These were kids who wouldn't even engage at all. Normally, when you go to a refugee camp, the kids, like, want to come up and ask if you have candy. Like, they would not look, even look at us. And a lot of these people were telling us that they survived the genocide in Darfur in the 2000s, which I know a lot of our generation is familiar with. But now they're leaving and never want to go back. And so this is a real. A real issue. And what we're seeing is that the UAE is funding and providing weapons to rsf, who is committing genocide and crimes against humanity. There is lots of documented evidence of them bringing cargo planes into Eastern Chad, for instance. Now they're diversifying their network to be able to bring in from places like Uganda, South Sudan, Libya. And this is, like, to me, such a difficult thing, because the US is the number One provider of weapons to the uae. We are who they buy their weapons from. So there is a very high likelihood that the weapons they are giving to the RSF originated in the United States, and therefore we are complicit in this. And so what I'm working to do, and I have a bill that would do this, is say we should not sell any more weapons to the UAE until we can certify that they are no longer supporting and arming the RSF. There was recently a $1 billion weapons sale that just went through. Senator Van Hollen and I introduced a joint resolution of disapproval, which is how Congress would be able to stop that sale. The Biden administration decided to accept fake assurances from the UAE that they weren't doing this, despite, again, evidence by our own intelligence community that they in fact never stopped funding and arming the rsf. And so we will reintroduce one another time an arms sale comes through to Congress.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, that's a really important point, I think, about the degree to which the US Is providing the weapons that the UAE then provides to the rsf. I mean, the Abraham Accords agreement that the Trump administration cut between the UAE and Israel was basically just a huge arms sales deal to the uae. And so we're giving them some very advanced stuff. But you know, what I especially respect about what you're doing here is when you talk to Africa experts, they say, look, President Biden named a really diligent, well meaning representative named Tom Perriello to lead his efforts to be the special representative to end the war in Sudan. But when Tom would go into meetings with the uae, he like, they knew that President Biden had a lot of priorities ahead of, you know, cutting off arms sales to, to the rsf. And it just wasn't seen as a priority for the administration. And I'm worried that that's going to be the same case here. And on top of that, the UAE is seen, you know, look, they have an ambassador who's kind of a man about town, who's very social, has lots of glitzy parties. Like, people just seem scared to criticize the uae. And I'm wondering why you think that is and whether people are ignorant of what's happening or afraid to say something or what the deal is.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah, look, this is one of my big frustrations with the Biden administration, which is every time they would have a meeting with the Emiratis, anytime any high level person would, I would have to like, work incredibly hard to make sure they even brought Sudan up. And it was very clear to both me and the Emiratis that it was sort of an offhand thing. At the end. At most they were going to get a slap on the wrist and it was clearly not what the US Cared the most about. And I think, you know, obviously there are other things going on in the region. We wanted that. The Biden administration wanted the UAE's help with Israel and Gaza and what's going on there. I do think there is a real fear of the scale and scope of Emirati sort of influence and money. We see that with the Trump folks. Right. Donald Trump himself has financial interests in both the UAE and Saudi. So it will be interesting to see what he does. I don't know which side he's going to take, but I think it's a real indictment on us as a country that there's a place the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world with 14 million people who are displaced and many more experiencing famine like conditions. This should be a priority and it shouldn't just be about who's willing to sign a trade agreement with Israel.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. And also, you know, maybe you're some cold hearted person who works at DOGE and you're like, I don't care about people starving in Sudan, I care about here at home. Well, refugee flows out of Sudan into Egypt are also destabilizing Egypt and leading them to have all kinds of economic problems that could disrupt their peace agreement with Israel. So there's a lot of ramifications here.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Not to mention that in addition to that, the Trump administration now with the funding freeze, has actually cut off our ability to help provide assistance to these refugees in Chad, in Uganda, elsewhere. And I remember I was there right before we passed the supplemental and they were telling me they had about a month's left worth of food to feed the people in those refugee camps that literally had nowhere else to turn. And we're in the same situation now. I mean, these people rely on assistance. They're fleeing a literal genocide and we've cut off all assistance and there's just.

[Tommy Vitor]

No one who can fill that gap. I mean, the private NGOs will try to raise money. You're seeing panicked emails from the irc, for example, and other groups that are like doing the Lord's work, but there's just no way to fill that gap.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Yeah, it's a really bad situation.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's dark. A lot of Democrats not in Congress, sort of like voters out there are really angry about these cuts to usaid. We want to see elected Officials fight them. But obviously you're in the minority in the House. You have limited power when it comes to day to day business. But that can change around major spending bills when the math gets really tough for Speaker Johnson. What points of leverage do you think Democrats will have in like, how do you think we should use them?

[Sarah Jacobs]

It's a really good question. So I think Democrats have sort of a multi pronged approach. So first of all, because we're in the minority, we can, we don't have standing to sue. So we need to work with outside groups to do litigation. But we are working on efforts on how we can support from here the litigation effort that are ongoing. And there are now three litigation efforts and we've seen they've been successful with the freeze on the administrative leave for USAID employees, for instance. The second is oversight. Right. Like members of Congress have been showing up to USAID to figure out what is going on, to ask questions. We have a hearing this week on USAID in the Foreign Affairs Committee where we will be, you know, trying to figure out what's going on. And then last we have legislative. So I've introduced a bill that would again say that it is existing law, that it is illegal to dismantle usaid, using Secretary Rubio's own language about the importance of USAID and how reform should be done, and then saying that no government funding can be used to dismantle it again. If, if I had introduced this in December, it would have had broad bipartisan support. So I think making sure we are targeting the Republicans who have historically been supportive of foreign assistance and pepfar and getting them on the record, trying to get them to sign on to this bill is an important thing that we all need to be doing because, you know, if they care about foreign assistance like they say they do, this is a great way to make sure we are doing the reforms that are clearly necessary. But that's different than what's happening right now, which is the dismantling it. And we call it the Protect US National Security Act. And that's intentional. It's because this really is about our national security. But then we also have these leverage points in terms of the government funding deadline on March 14th in terms of what else they might need our votes for. And it will be interesting to see because the government funding bills are what fund usaid. There's a whole State and Foreign Operations Subcommittee of the, the Appropriations Committee that basically just does the state and USAID budgets. If they try and do a budget, a continuing resolution that doesn't include any funding for usaid, I'm hard pressed to see how they will get Democratic votes. Obviously, Leader Jeffries is trying to negotiate the best deal possible for the American people when it comes to these spending bills. But I think we all feel that we need some sort of agreement that whatever we are able to pass will actually be implemented by the executive branch.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, I think the other sort of worst case scenario that a lot of people are worried about, myself included, is, you know, one of these judges or courts blocking, you know, Trump and Elon's efforts to gut name your agency and Trump just ignoring it. I mean, do you think that we're in a constitutional crisis?

[Sarah Jacobs]

I think that's a very real fear. I will say so far, for the most part, I don't want to give them too much credit, but for the most part, we are seeing them abide by them. For instance, they sent an email out to all USAID employees taking them off of administrative leave. Now, there's still difficulties because they've still turned off the payment systems and they still don't have access to all the computer systems, all of these things. But I think for the most part, we're seeing that hold. But I think that is exactly the fear we all should have. And when I talk to my Republican colleagues, that is what they say will be their red line. We'll see if any of them grow a spine. But I think that's also where public pressure really comes in because we've seen that public pressure is the only thing at the end of the day that will really get Trump to change course.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I totally agree with you. I mean, look, I think people have been kind of shell shocked at Trump 2.0. There hasn't been the kind of direct action we saw the first time around. But boy, if he ignores an order from a court or the Supreme Court, I think that's when you need millions and millions of people taken to the streets and showing that we're not cool with that.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Exactly right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Congresswoman Sarah Jacobs, thank you so much for caring about these issues and for joining the show. I really appreciate it.

[Sarah Jacobs]

Thank you so much for having me and for talking about them.

[Tommy Vitor]

Thanks again to Congresswoman Jacobs for joining the show. And Ben, you cruising over to Munich soon?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I'm going to see. You know, I'll be there with J.D. vance and Zelensky. Well, I won't be physically in that meeting trilat, but I will be in the Munich Security Conference. I will be probably one of the very few Democrats in attendance at the Munich security conference. So I'm looking forward to the kind of looks I get in the lobby of the, you know, Banderhoff Hotel in Munich or whatever it is where everything takes. Where all the shit goes down. It'll be interesting.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, there's some, like, military attaches, like, smells like sulfur.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Save the world.

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh, God.

[Ben Rhodes]

No, but I always get. I always get people, like, come up to me and, you know, if it's a Trump, you know, year, it's kind of under their breath, like, I'm a world O. So there's like, world O's there. They just can't be out and proud about it, you know.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, tell them thanks for the downloads and see you in four years. All right, buddy. Safe travels.

[Ben Rhodes]

Great to you.

[Tommy Vitor]

If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription [e-mail] friends. Don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter for more original content. Host takeovers and other community events. Plus, find Pod Save the World on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content and more. If you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping a review. Pod Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Ilona Minkowski. Our associate producer is Michael Goldsmith. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick and engineered by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is head of news and programming. Matt De Groat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Phoebe Bradford, William Jones, Kiril Palaviv and Molly Lobel, who upload our episodes and videos to YouTube.com podsavetheworld. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Sarah Jacobs]

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