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Pod Save the World
Trump’s Looming MAGA Military Purge
01:09:14
Tommy and Ben discuss how Trump’s nomination of Pete Hegseth and Tulsi Gabbard could reshape and politicize the US military and intelligence community, and how Trump’s choice to lead the FBI will signal how intensely he plans to go after his political enemies. They also talk about Biden’s decision to allow Ukraine to hit targets in Russia with US-made weapons, the dark irony of COP29 being held in Azerbaijan, Biden’s trip to the G20 and APEC, Brazil’s sports gambling crisis, and a serious case of banana-phobia. Then Tommy speaks to Senator Bernie Sanders about his effort in Congress to ban offensive weapons sales to Israel.
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- [00:01]
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- [00:53]
Ben Rhodes
Days.
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- [01:13]
Tommy Vitor
Welcome back to Pod Save the World. I'm Tommy Vitor.
- [01:15]
Ben Rhodes
I'm Ben Rhodes.
- [01:16]
Tommy Vitor
Ben, you think Aaron Rodgers is going to leave the jets and go work for RFK junior Now?
- [01:21]
Ben Rhodes
Well, I thought he would be in the running for CDC, but I see that Dr. Oz is in there. Dr. Oz, I mean, Aaron Rodgers, instead of working out, clearly be the jets quarterback. Last couple years he's just kind of been doing his own research. But he lost out to Dr. Oz.
- [01:37]
Tommy Vitor
Our country is such a joke. We have multiple reality show. We have president, we have reality. Oh, cabinet members, Fox News hosts, I think. What? Okay, here we are.
- [01:47]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's just say that our country is about as functional right now as the Jets. That's right. So that's kind of, kind of some parallels there.
- [01:56]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, basically Woody Johnson running the show this week. We've got a great show for you guys. We're going to talk all about the latest news on Trump's national security team. The selection since last week have been interesting to say the least. We'll talk about Biden's major policy change on Ukraine, the UN Climate summit happening in Azerbaijan, President Biden's trip to the G20 and APEC in Brazil and sports gambling in Brazil. Pretty amazing story there, Ben. And then you will hear my interview with Senator Bernie Sanders about his efforts in the Senate to. To cut off arms to Israel. Basically, Sanders has introduced all these resolutions trying to cut off U.S. shipments of specific weapon systems and force a vote on those in the U.S. senate. So very glad he is doing that.
- [02:40]
Ben Rhodes
Ben yeah, and it'd be interesting to see how many votes that gets. I mean, obviously you would like the Democratic caucus to be united behind it. It probably won't be, but it'll be a good measure of kind of where Democrats are on this, you know, clearly not where they need to be. But I'm glad Bernie's leading it.
- [02:56]
Tommy Vitor
I'm glad Bernie's leading it. I would bet you lots and lots of money that Senate leadership is whipping against these votes. But we shall see. BENNY Also, like the, the, the interview, I think, was the shortest interview I've ever done in pod save the world history. I think it was nine minutes because Bernie is to the point, he is concise. We're in, we're out, and that's why we love him.
- [03:16]
Ben Rhodes
And he's sufficient. You know, he's got something to say, he says it, and then he's done with his business.
- [03:21]
Tommy Vitor
You know, he's got things to do, votes to cast. All right. So last week we talked about the Trump national security team picks that had been made so far. I think the takeaway was like they were surprisingly normal, traditional, hawkish Republicans, people like Marco Rubio. And then we recorded and then everything changed. Ben so now we've got Fox and Friends weekend co host Pete Hegseth nominated to be Secretary of Defense. Tulsi Gabbard was tapped to be the Director of National Intelligence. Cash Patel is reportedly a frontrunner to become the next director of the FBI. He might report into future Attorney General Matt Gaetz. And then Politico says Seb Gorka is on the short list to become deputy national Security Advisor. So God help us all. Okay, Ben, so let's talk about a few of these goobers in depth, starting with Pete Hegseth. So he is 44 years old, served in the National Guard for 20 years, served in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and was awarded two Bronze Stars for his service. Hegseth is a graduate of Princeton University. He got a master's in public policy from Harvard. He served as the director of two veterans advocacy organizations, which are pretty small. I think he managed like five to 50 people is what I've seen reported. But most of his career in the last decade has been at Fox News. He has railed, you know, as a Fox host, he's railed against wokeness in the military. He suggested banning women from serving in combat roles. He, he's talked about firing the current chairman of the joint Chief, CQ Brown. He wants to abandon all efforts to diversify the military. He lobbied Trump to Pardon war criminals. And according to the Washington Post, Hegseth paid hush money to a woman who accused him of sexual assault. If confirmed, Hegseth would be in charge of managing 2.3 million people, including about 1.3 million active duty members in the military. He'll be Trump's primary adviser on defense policy, and he would assume even more power in the event of a crisis or, or a national emergency. Real or manufactured? Let's hear a clip of Hegseth from a podcast interview recently on the Sean Ryan Show.
- [05:24]
Pete Hegseth
Well, first of all, you gotta fire, you know, you gotta fire the chairman of Joint Chiefs and you gotta fire this. I mean, obviously you're gonna bring in a new Secretary of defense, but any general that was involved, General, Admiral, whatever that was involved in any of the DEI woke shit, it's gotta go. Either you're in for war fighting and that's it. And that's the only litmus test we care about. You gotta get DEI and CRT out of military academy. So you're not training young officers to be baptized in this type of thinking. And then, you know, whatever the standards, whatever the combat standards were, say in, I don't know, 1995, let's just make those standards. And as far as recruiting to hire the guy that, you know, did Top Gun Maverick and create some real ads that motivate people to want to serve.
- [06:05]
Tommy Vitor
So let's just go back in time and emulate a movie. All right, let's talk about this guy then. So I think clearly there's a part of this where Trump just like, hires people. He thinks look the part. And he said heg said this like a central casting guy, but he also, he's clearly an ideologue. And Trump reportedly wants to purge military leaders who don't agree with him. And then according to NBC, they might even potentially court martial military officers involved in the withdrawal from Afghanistan. NBC even said they're considering charges as serious as treason. So, you know, long story short, like a very serious job and a dangerous pick, the question I have for you is how Democrats should manage this one, because obviously this guy shouldn't be nominated for this position. But I do worry there's a trap here for Democrats if we insist that this Princeton, Harvard educated combat veteran who wants to shake stuff up is not qualified, but that a bunch of blobby DC goobers who are part of the post 911 war on terror have the right experience. I'm just thinking about how to frame this conversation and not walk ourselves into a trap here.
- [07:15]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, I think I make a broad point about this team and then about Hegseth himself. The broad point is they really know what they're doing. They really know what they're doing. You look at this from the outside and it's easy to laugh at individual appointments, but let's think about what they're doing. The agencies, and we'll get to these. But the agencies that Trump hates and wants to wreck are doj, FBI, the intelligence community, where he has this kind of personal grievances. And so we'll get to those people. But that's who he put there, Rubio, State. He wants State to function. He doesn't seem to have it in for them. You could have a conventional guy there. Frankly, as we talked about last week, Rubio's not really going to be running foreign policy anyway. He's going to be running out of the White House. What is hexed there for? They want to turn the US Military into an extension of maga. That's something that Trump has always wanted. He's wanted a military that would follow his orders no matter how extreme those orders are. He wants a military that kind of culturally reflects the people at his rallies. That's why he liked Hegzeth's advocacy for Eddie Gallagher, the Navy SEAL who committed war crimes that Trump pardoned. This isn't just because he looked good on Fox and Friends. It's because of all this stuff he says, like in those clips. And in terms of what I'd focus on then you guys covered the sexual assault piece on psa. Well, obviously that should feature. But what I'd be looking at is how far are you willing to go to follow those orders. So in other words, what does he think about the use of the US Military in the United States for either mass deportations or for crushing. If there are protests that are against Trump, that's a huge issue. That's a Rubicon that could be crossed using US Military inside this country in a way it hasn't been done before. And I'd want to know about that. Where you connect a sexual assault to the anti woke agenda. Is this guy going to come in and roll back all the efforts to women now serve in combat roles, women now serve in leadership roles. Is that all gone? Is he going to claw all that back as well? And in terms of gutting the senior officer corps, again, that gets to the MAGA point is if the litmus test for being a three or four star general is fealty to Donald Trump, that is remaking the American military in ways that will have a generational impact. So what do they mean by this? Who are the people that are going to be on their radar screen for Joint Chiefs? My worry here is that this guy kind of actually knows what he's doing, even if he sounds buffoonish. And if we look up in four years, one of the things where Trump can do kind of existential damage is changing the nature and character of the US Military in a way that we've never seen before. That's what I'd be focused on.
- [10:05]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And I think it's worth wondering if he wants to roll back Don't Ask, don't tell and bar gay and lesbian service members from serving. Because if he wants to go back to 1995, I mean, that seems to be a very specific choice. And. Yeah, but it does seem like there's this broader mission to purge the military and make it politicized. And I think it's incredibly dangerous.
- [10:28]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. And where does it end? And what is the function of the military in that scenario? What happens in terms of cohesion in the military? How would you feel in the military right now if you were a woman or if you were a minority? And what does that do to morale? Recruitment? Are they just going to go off and recruit MAGA people? Are they going to go off and recruit white nationalists? And I don't say this just because the guy has a tattoo, but that's kind of who they're, you know, that's who they're kind of putting out the bat signal to. And it's a little alarming, you know, to think about what that might look like in four years if this guy does everything he says they're going to do. And what does he mean by dei? I mean, because if there's diversity training, it's all over the military. So is everybody involved in that? How are they going to select who's quote, unquote, guilty and not? It's a lot of rhetoric that could lead to pretty scary places.
- [11:20]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And they're so offended by any effort to diversify the military. And often what you're talking about is like, one hour of training in some, like, multi week month course. You know, it's like very, very little. And there is a lack of diversity in the US Military, especially at the senior level, which Obama and Biden have tried to work on. And now it sounds like Trump is going to just completely roll back. The other pick, though, that has a lot of people worried is the nomination of former Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. The to be The Director of National Intelligence. Tulsi, like Hegseth, is a veteran. She was in the Hawaii Army National Guard from 2003 to 2020 and has been in the Army Reserve since 2021. She also did a 12 month tour in Iraq in the House of Representatives. Tulsi served on the Homeland Security Committee, but she did not serve on any of the relevant intelligence committees. She's got no experience working at an intelligence agency. I don't think she's managed a large organization as far as I can tell. Here's a clip of Democratic Congresswoman and former CIA officer Abigail Spanberger talking with our own Matt Berg from Crooked's what a Day newsletter about Tulsi Gabbard.
- [12:27]
Abigail Spanberger
Her nomination.
- [12:29]
Tommy Vitor
It just outrageous.
- [12:31]
Abigail Spanberger
Like, like comically outrageous. And it's not even a fig leaf of a rationale that he can assign to it. She doesn't have an intelligence background. She wasn't on, you know, the Intel Committee during her time in Congress. The DNI is a new position that was deemed newer, that was deemed essential after the September 11th attack. Right. It was created to ensure communication within the ic. It was created to ensure, you know, a streamlining of information to the President. What happens if we have a DNI who's not so interested in protecting America's secret or who's not so interested in protecting the kind of legitimacy of American leadership on the global stage, the amount of damage that could be done to our ability to protect ourselves, our ability to stress on the global stage. I mean, it is just an, it's an untold reality.
- [13:39]
Tommy Vitor
So, you know, Tulsi ran for president as a Democrat in 2020. Then she quit the Democratic Party a couple years later to reinvent herself as this Trump super fan. Before that, though, you know, one of her more controversial moments was back in 2017 when she traveled to Syria and met with Bashar Al Assad, who at the time was many, many years into massacring his own people. She has also questioned US claims that Assad used chemical weapons on the Syrian people and criticized the US for supporting the Syrian opposition. Then in 2022, after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Tulsi blamed the US and NATO for starting the war. A lot of her critics, like, suggest she's kind of a Russian stooge or an asset. Personally, I think that's, that's not a very smart way to talk about her. I think she has clearly just shown poor judgment over and over and over again and seems incapable of separating out good information from bad. And she tends to think that you know claims from people like Vladimir Putin are credible or more credible than information from the 18 intelligence agencies that she would be overseeing. So she also will be the one making sure that good intel gets to Trump in the form of the pdb. Ben. So I don't know, man. Like, this is. This is a wild pick. Surprise the hell out of me. How much does Tulsi worry you in this role?
- [14:54]
Ben Rhodes
It worries me a lot. I pick up on two things. One thing that Spamberger said, one thing you just said. And, Tommy, it's always a little embarrassing when I make a reference that shows my age. But I'm so old that I worked on the recommendations of the 911 Commission that led to the creation of this position of the dni, which, as Spamberger said, was created because the problem before 911 is that the CIA and the intelligence function and the FBI and these other agencies, they didn't share the bits and pieces of information they had. So the point of the dni, they don't run the CIA, Right? So they're not running, like, the covert operations at the CIA and stuff, but they're there to oversee all these different intelligence agencies in a management role. Right? To help make sure that information is being shared, that they're not turf wars. There's zero chance that Tulsi Gabbard has any interest in doing that. She has no vision for the management of the intelligence community. She probably couldn't name the agencies within the intelligence community. And so that's a problem because then these intelligence agencies, again, kind of become fiefdoms. The second piece of this is what you referenced, which is the DNI is the person responsible for briefing the President of the United States on intelligence. So every morning in the pdb, I was in that for a few years, the DNI comes in the Oval Office and tells the President what they need to know. And that shapes what's in the President's head going into the day and going into any policymaking. In NSC meetings. And you were in some of these, Tommy, in the Situation Room, those meetings usually begin with the Director of National Intelligence briefing the President and the National Security team about whatever the situation is. So wherever you be in Ukraine, we'll start with a few minutes in the DNI to give us a level set of what's happening and just consider that being filtered through Tulsi Gabbard's worldview. This is somebody. I agree with you just calling her bringing back the Moscow Mitch talking points and calling her a Russian stooge. Yeah, sure. I Mean, I'd be curious whether she ever had any Russian connections, but she seems to think these things or want to think these things no matter what. And that's what I worry about. She is the filter of worldview to Trump. And so just think about what she's going to be saying in the PDB every day. It is pretty chilling that this is someone that has clearly an affinity for the Putin worldview, the Assad worldview now being the person who briefs the president every morning.
- [17:23]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And she accused the US of funding ISIS in Syria. She accused the US of war crimes in Syria. I mean, she really got, I don't know if she went and met with Assad and then got attacked for it and then got so dug in that she just assumed more and more entrenched positions. But it's very strange. I mean, there's a lot of people like, look, I'm all for meeting with your adversaries, but, like, Bashar Al Assad is a terrible person. There's no question about it. Like, he used. Okay, even if you doubt that he used chemical weapons on his own people, which you shouldn't, you shouldn't doubt that he killed tens of thousands of them and tortured them and starved people to death. I mean, this man has been massacring his own people for years. There's no love lost there. Why would you defend him and say that the US Was the real problem there? Similarly, I mean, clearly the Russian invasion of Ukraine was just an act of naked aggression. We can debate whether NATO expansion was a good idea, but again, to blame Ukraine, to blame the US for that happening just suggests a bizarre worldview that you're right. I mean, it's not fact based.
- [18:21]
Ben Rhodes
It's a worldview, you know, Tommy, where the left meets the right. You know, you move so far left or so far right that you're in this kind of conspiracy theory world in between. And that may be an interesting person to get high with in your college dorm room and talk about, you know, Noam Chomsky or something. And I, you know, I say, actually, Noam Chomsky, smarter than Tulsi Gabbard. He's formulated his opinions based on a lot of research. But, yeah, it's this conspiracy theory mindset at the center of power that should be alarming to people. It's alarming to me, at least.
- [18:56]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And for what it's worth, I mean, when she decided to run for president, she went pretty hard at Trump. She called the Soleimani strike, the assassination of Qasem Soleimani an act of war. She criticized Trump's trade war with China. When the Trump folks didn't sanction Saudi Arabia after the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, she tweeted at Trump, quote, being Saudi Arabia's bitch is not America first. So there is a version of Tulsi in there when the politics strike her. Right? Yeah, that can be useful, but not this one. So Ben, just to close out this personnel section, I don't think we need to tell anyone why Matt Gaetz shouldn't be Attorney General. That's pretty self explanatory. But just a little further down, sort of the list of top positions. The Deputy National Security Advisor will either be, according to some news reports, this accelerationist right wing speechwriter guy named Michael Anton or a right wing Hungarian doofus named Seb Gorka. So that's great. Maybe they'll surprise us and pick someone else, who knows. But I think the most consequential fight we'll talk about today could be over who is the next FBI director. The establishment types are pushing for a guy named Mike Rogers. He was chairman of the House Intelligence Committee for many years. Just lost a Senate race in Michigan, but is clearly qualified for the job. I think he came out of the FBI. The hardcore MAGA types. I was listening to Steve Bannon's show yesterday. He was talking about this goober they want, Cash Patel. Patel is someone we've talked about on the show before. He has very little relevant experience. He was a basically a low level congressional staffer and NSC staffer and then spent three months as Chief of Staff to the acting Secretary of Defense at the very end of the Trump administration when they were all were storming the Capitol and such. But the MAGA folks love him because of comments like this. We will go out and find the.
- [20:44]
Ben Rhodes
Conspirators not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the.
- [20:49]
Tommy Vitor
People in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you whether it's criminally or civilly.
- [20:56]
Ben Rhodes
We'll figure that out. But yeah, we're putting you all on notice.
- [20:59]
Tommy Vitor
And Steve, this is why they hate us. This is why we're tyrannical. This is why we're dictators, because we're actually going to use the Constitution to.
- [21:06]
Ben Rhodes
Prosecute them for crimes they said we.
- [21:08]
Tommy Vitor
Have always been guilty of, but never have. So, you know, look, I think he was talking to Bannon there. Normally I give people a little bit of pass for hyperbole. But I think we have to take him very seriously and literally here. And that's why I think this selection is really gonna tell us a lot about which direction this administration is going. Because like putting Cash Patel at the FBI when he's grossly unqualified is just saying, I want someone who is willing to do whatever I say to use the power of the government to punish my enemies and relitigate all these old fights. That's the only reason you would select this guy. And by the way, Christopher Wray, the current FBI director, has many, many years of his 10 year term left. They would be pulling him out early. And it wasn't entirely clear whether Ray was going to be replaced. But then JD Vance confirmed it today in a quote tweet dunk on some other woman who works for Steve Bannon who said they were vetting replacement. So it sounds like this is very much in train, this sort of FBI replacement process.
- [22:09]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, it's truly scary. I mean, I heard another Cash Patel clip where he said if he was running the FBI, he'd close the building, the FBI building, turn it into a museum of the deep state and send those people out into the country to find the real crimes. So this is the caliber of person we're talking about. As usual, as with these other appointments we've talked about. Lost in the discussion how crazy it is. Actually you'd want the FBI to be doing some pretty important stuff. You know, if you're actually worried about drug cartels, if you're actually worried about crime in this country, you kind of want competent leadership at the FBI. But put that aside. This is the example of the worst case scenario of taking the instruments and machinery of the US government that is most capable of targeting your enemies and putting the worst people in charge of that. So Mike Rogers would be much better, be kind of a Marco Rubio type pick. Would give me make me feel a little better. I mean, I don't agree with Mike Rogers about a lot of things, but if Cash Patel is in there, even if he's the deputy FBI director, let's say they make Mike Rogers the FBI guy. It's still a very scary signal because the only thing this guy's done in the last eight years is this, is try to go after people when he was at the House Intelligence. I mean, full disclosure, I got hauled in front of the House Intelligence Committee when he was Devin Nunes guy based on a complete conspiracy theory about, I mean to play the old hits, Tommy, remember unmasking this theory that we'd invented the Russia thing. And it didn't make any sense because it said we had unmasked Trump people talking to Russians and we'd invented it. So both those things can't be true. Neither were true, actually, that we invented it or that we did this unmasking to do it. But the point is that this is all this guy cares about. He doesn't even have another agenda. His agenda is to go after Trump's enemies, and we should take that seriously. If you also look at the Gorka Anton thing too, that'd be an interesting pick too, because that deputy job kind of runs the machinery of the nsc. And it could be that they have got guys like Waltz as the front men in some of these places, but then they burrow in these mega pilled guys, these staffer types, to go in and really do the dirty work. And so that's what I'd also be looking for, is whether these types of people end up at these deputy levels where they have a lot of power, even if they're not necessarily the front people, even if they're not necessarily confirmed for their positions.
- [24:36]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, and look, I was listening to Bannon talk about this, and we're like, we need cash at the top job at the FBI, not deputy. But even if he got the deputy director job. Ben, I just googled the current deputy FBI director, a guy named Paul Abate. I've never heard of him before. He apparently joined the FBI in 1996 and has been a career FBI agent ever since. He worked at the Counterterrorism Division. He worked at the Newark Division's Joint Terrorism Task Force. He worked back again, the Counterterrorism Division. He was in L. A. Like this. These are like career civil servants with deep experience in counterterrorism and law enforcement and the legal structures around the authorities. The FBI has. These guys are just taking, like, utterly unqualified hacks, people who are just partisan political operatives like Cache Patel wrote a children's book called the Plot against the King that was an allegory for the Russia investigation. That is how much time he spent kissing Trump's ass. And this is the person they're going to make the FBI director. Like, that is batshit crazy.
- [25:39]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, it truly is. I mean, we're about to be living in some very interesting times. And again, we have to put the pin in it. Again, this is not Trump 1.0. This is, I mean, Trump 1.0. Cash Patel started working for Devin Newton is. Now we're talking about him being maybe the FBI director. So that just shows you how far this pendulum has swung. And people can say, yeah, they want people to shake it up. And Americans, they're looking for that. And I've made that argument myself. But they're taking it to an extreme here that is well beyond shaking it up. It's about breaking it and remaking it into instruments of Trump's will.
- [26:19]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And that, that reinforced his personal interest. And then, just last thing you know, there is a bit of lingering Trump 1.0, which is that Jared Kushner is not going to go back and be the pretend shadow Secretary of State in the White House, but he reportedly will be an outside advisor helping with any normalization talks between Saudi Arabia and Israel, Sort of a continuation of the Abraham Accords work he did, despite the fact that the Saudis cut his investment firm a $2 billion check after he left the administration. So there's this massive conflict of interest there. And he apparently, you know, he would work with Trump's real estate and golf buddy, this guy Steve Witkoff, who was named the Middle east envoy. So, again, like, these sort of friends who are not qualified or family members, some of them outside, kind of the guardrails of the government when it comes to financial disclosures, etcetera, will be coordinating relationships with these, you know, multibillion dollar, trillion dollar Saudi Gulf autocrats. So, you know, not great.
- [27:19]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. I think this is really important. Chris Murphy last week made the point that the main thing to watch in Trump's foreign policy is corruption and the monetization of American foreign policy. And this is how they do it. And I think one thing people have to understand is that this is not unusual around the world. You know, let's pick a turkey. Erdogan's son is like a billionaire. There's a lot of corruption. He goes around the world and he makes deals, because if people want to get to Erdogan, they can invest in this guy, and then maybe Erdogan does him a favor. Right. So there's actually a transactionalism that is familiar to countries. I think what we've never seen before is that the United States, with all of our power, all of our military, all of our technology being in that game at this level. And so the thing I'd watch is that how will countries try to curry favor with Trump? It's not the charm offense. It's fucking bullshit. We should devote some time to how they cover Trump. It's not that they're gonna try to charm him, it's that they're gonna try to pay him and they're not gonna pay Trump directly. And it's not even that they're gonna stay in his hotels, as grotesque as that was. It's that they could cut checks to people like Jared or other people in the Trump orbit who are nominally on the outside. Let's not forget Elon Musk here. Billions, Billions. Hundreds of billions of dollars, potentially. If you want the United States to do something bad enough and you can buy it, why wouldn't you? And so I think that it's really important, it's going to be important to watch this space, to see where the money is flowing to the people around Trump and Jared's case in point. But there are others that will come into focus here. And the reality is it's what Trump always said about everything's corrupt and rigged. I mean, we're about to find out what that actually looks like.
- [29:08]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, that's right. And there's a lot of ways to get money into his pocket these days, whether it's the crypto venture, whether it's the DJT stock that's now listed on the Nasdaq, whether it's some of these friends and family. There's just a lot of avenues for corruption. Ben, two things before we go to break. We had some exciting announcements here. First of all, if you're into British politics and you want to deep dive into what our second Trump term is going to mean for the uk, check out the latest episode of Pod Save the uk. Nish and Coco will break down this looming political reshuffle, what it means beyond the U.S. border. And it's just a funny, delightful listen. So always listen to Pod Save the uk. And then we got a big guest booking coming next week. Well, actually at the end of this week and next week. But Ben can explain.
- [29:53]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. Holiday special coming up Thanksgiving week. I sat down with Malala a couple days ago. She is an executive producer and helping to publicize a really brilliant film called Bread and Roses that is basically about what's happened for Afghan women since the collapse of Kabul. It follows a number of women really gets inside their lives over the course of the last couple years. And I talked to her about that, but I also talked about the state of the world. And I have to say, if you're looking for some inspiration and some resilience, please check out this interview. Not just me, but our whole team that was there left feeling kind of motivated, inspired by her and her message. We're going to drop this on YouTube. So on the Pod Save the World YouTube channel, this will be available this Friday. So in advance of the podcast and then full interview on the POD next week, people should check it out.
- [30:48]
Tommy Vitor
Excellent. We all use a little Hope Right Now Party the World is brought to you by ZipRecruiter Worked at a bunch of offices in my day, some of them government. Spent a lot of time here at the office at Kirk and Media. But while there are many different types of office out there, one thing's for certain. Choosing the right candidate for any office is a huge responsibility. Well, if you're hiring, you want to find the best candidate for your office, you need ZipRecruiter. And right now you can try it for free@ziprecruiter.com pod it's ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer the Most based on G2 how fast does ZipRecruiter's smart technology start showing your job to qualified candidates? Immediately. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology works fast to find top talent so you don't waste time or money. You can invite top candidates for your job to apply to encourage them to apply sooner. Remember, if you want to find the right candidates for your office, you need ZipRecruiter. See why 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZipRecruiter for free. Ziprecruiter.com pod Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com pod ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire Pod Save the World is brought to you by SelectQuote. It feels like most of the news we're subjected to 24. 7 is bad or downright depressing about the future. With so much out of our control, the future can feel overwhelming. Regain control with a life Insurance policy from SelectQuote Whether you need $500,000 or $50 million in coverage, the licensed insurance agents at Select Quote work for you to tailor a life insurance policy for your individual needs in as little as 15 minutes. And have you ever worried about getting coverage with a preexisting condition? Selectquote partners with carriers that provide policies for a variety of health conditions. Selectquote they shop, you save, get the right life insurance for you for less@selectquote.com world go to selectquote.com world go today to get started. That's selectquote.com world the credit card companies are ripping you off and you don't even know it. Every time you use your credit card, they Charge a hidden swipe fee. It costs the average family more than eleven hundred dollars per year. Really? $1,100. That's because the credit card companies organize banks into pricing cartels. It's like OPEC for credit cards. That's terrible.
- [33:02]
Bernie Sanders
Yeah.
- [33:02]
Tommy Vitor
Awful organization with no competition. We have the highest credit card swipe fees in the world, and that is just wrong. Thankfully, the House and Senate have a bipartisan bill to fix this problem. It's called the Credit Card Competition Act. It would finally make credit card companies compete like every business across the country is supposed to. So call your senators and representatives and tell them to pass the Credit Card Competition Act. All right, Ben, let's switch gears here because there was some big news on the Ukraine front. So after months of pressure from Ukrainians and a lot of people in Congress, the Biden administration finally decided to allow the Ukrainian military to use US Provided long range missiles against targets on Russian soil. These Weapons are called ATACMs. They can travel up to 190 miles. Biden's team told the New York Times that the change in policy was a direct response to North Korea sending thousands of troops to join the fight in Russia. There's also reportedly 50,000 Russian and North Korean troops preparing for an assault to take back the Kursk region of Russia, which Ukraine took this summer. The Russians are very unhappy about this policy change. Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said this would cause, quote, a new spiral of tensions. And then back in September, Putin said it would be considered a direct attack by NATO against Russia. Earlier this week, Putin signed a new nuclear doctrine that basically expands the rationale Russia can use to use nuclear weapons. The new policy basically says that if a non nuclear country attacks Russia but is backed by a nuclear country, then Russia can consider that a joint attack and therefore could potentially merit a nuclear response. So some serious saber rattling there. Response to this move was mixed, especially in Europe. Poland was psyched. Hungary and Slovakia criticized Biden's decision. The Germans basically just refused to follow suit. And then last week, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz actually called Vladimir Putin, which is the first time in two years that any Western leader had spoken directly with the Russian president. Schultz said he urged Putin to negotiate in that call, but Zelensky and the Ukrainians were very upset about it. Germany has election coming up in February. I imagine that's part of this. So some of the MAGA types were quite unhappy. Donald Trump Jr. Accused Biden of trying to cause World War Three. Mike Waltz, the incoming national security Adviser, was a little more measured here's. A clip of him on Fox News Monday. This is a development, but it's a tactical one. President Trump is talking grand strategy here. How do we get both sides to the table to end this war? What's the framework for a deal and who's sitting at that table? This is an all star team, Brian, that President Trump is assembling, that will think through these broader strategic issues and how do we drive this war to an end as president, President Trump promised on the campaign trail a lot of deep fucking thinkers on this team. So, Ben, two things. I remember talking with you like a year back about this exact scenario where you've got Biden as a lame duck and Zelensky desperate to do as much damage to the Russians while he can before Trump comes in. And it just feels unbelievably risky. Point one. And point two, if we're being honest, and I was the Trump administration kind of handed this policy change, I would be furious. And also, it just feels like an 11th hour escalation with a kind of confusing rationale. Like the North Koreans showing up is what did this? I just, I don't know. I don't, I just don't get it.
- [36:29]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. First of all, I want to echo you and we're going to have some fun. People shouldn't worry about our darknesses. We're here to inform. We're here to try to shine light on things. But we'll have plenty of time to make fun of big people like this, you know, dropping in grand strategy. At the same time, he's talking about Donald Trump assembling like the dream team when it's like Cash Patel and, you know, Tulsi Gabbard, Dr. Oz, Matt Gates, we would be furious. Any incoming administration would be furious at this significant of a tactical change in a war with like two months left to go. Not even, I think in terms of the Biden administration, this has kind of been the problem with the Ukraine policy all along. You and I have talked about this, this pattern of not doing things, but then ultimately doing them, like late. And this came to a head a few months ago, right. Remember, the Brits were pushing forward Keir Starmer, some others, and they said no. And, and if the only thing that's changed is the North Koreans, the North Koreans have been there for a while. You know, they didn't show up yesterday. And what it feels like to me is that the Biden administration sees that there are two months left. They're trying to get all that military assistance out the door, all the assistance that was in that supplemental that passed earlier this year. And they're just trying to let the Ukrainians, I don't know, do some damage to the Russians to put them in a slightly better position. When Trump comes in and things might be moving to negotiation, is that worth the risk? Is that worth the chaos? I mean, just consider if Trump comes in and takes us back, then there's an immediate weird battlefield seesaw. They had a capability that they no longer have. It's just not a. It's a pretty destabilizing way to do this. I think the Putin thing, I don't think he's gonna use nuclear weapons, but I think that's a. Like, he knows Trump will be a bit brushed back by that. And I think Putin is very determined to show that he's not gonna cave to Trump, that he's not eager for a deal, that he can escalate too, that he has cards to play. And so I think the Ukraine war, to your point, is in for a pretty bumpy ride. The Ukrainians might ratchet things up, the Russians might ratchet things up to show that they're not too hungry for some Trump deal. The Trump people are coming in. They don't know these people. They don't have relationships in Ukraine in the way that the Biden administration does. A lot of these people don't have relationships with the Europeans. The Europeans are divided between the hawks, as you said, in Eastern Europe. And then the kind of more Trumpy people in places like Hungary and Slovakia, and then people like Scholz are just kind of worried about them getting run over by the politics of this. So this could be like a pretty uncertain few months. You know, North Koreans are fighting. All of a sudden the Ukraine war, I think, is going to start to be, you know, not so much the status quo ante that we've seen. You could see escalations and flare ups and brinksmanship. That could be pretty alarming.
- [39:32]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And, you know, meanwhile, the poor Ukrainians, I mean, the Russians are just pounding them with airstrikes over the weekend. They hit, I think, 120 missiles and 90 drones. They're firing it mostly at energy infrastructure. I think up to nearly 70% of Ukraine's energy systems have been destroyed. And of course, we're going into the winter. And then to your point on the politics, I mean, yeah, Schultz is eyeing this election in February. I think a lot of people think that he is going to lose, but the Greens and his coalition want Germany to be more aggressive in supporting the Ukrainians. The CDU candidate, the more conservative party candidate wants to be more aggressive against the Russians in support of Ukraine. So it's like the politics are kind of jumbled. And then I saw today, Ben, there was a Gallup poll of Ukrainians in Ukraine. Obviously, 52% of Ukrainians would like to see their leaders negotiate an end to the war as soon as possible. That number was closer to 22% in 2022. Back then, like, there was an overwhelming majority of the country that wanted to keep fighting. And then I saw, like, of the 52% of Ukrainians who want to negotiate an end to the war, about half of those are comfortable with conceding territory. So I feel like, you know, there's a lot of fatigue. There's people seeing the writing on the wall and then there's just the political winds are blowing in a tough direction.
- [40:47]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. What's really frustrating, we talked over the last couple years about this triumphal, this kind of neocon triumphalism about imminent Ukrainian victory. What's pretty frustrating is what should be happening now. And we've talked about this. I did that episode on it for the election series. We should be moving into a negotiation precisely because the Ukrainians are exhausted. But the question is, what kind of deal can they get? Can they get a deal where they basically hold the territory they have and maybe try to negotiate back some other bits and pieces in exchange for, like, things like EU membership, sustained security guarantees, you know, the viability and success of Ukraine as it remains as a country? And Emmanuel Macron talking about some form of peacekeeping presence from European forces there. There's a deal that could end this war, but Trump's so forward leaning in his desire to end it that paradoxically, it incentivizes Putin to push and push and push and push and take and take and take and take more because he has this upper hand and he thinks the US Is withdrawing support and the whole world feels that way. And so I see why some Ukrainians, like, were happy that Trump won because they just want a different approach. This approach of kind of slow bleed and incremental weapons flowing in and no end on the horizon would fill me with a lot of despair. But I really feel terribly for them because they're in this bind, because I wouldn't necessarily want Donald Trump to be the one negotiating that deal. Trump may want something from the Ukrainians, he may want natural resources, and God knows what he'll want from them. A dirt on his political opponents. Remember, that was way back in the first impeachment. So the price seems like it's going to get higher for the Ukrainians, not lower.
- [42:30]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, man, I hadn't even thought about the prospect of him demanding some kind of cut off the top of any deal. That is, that is bleak. And yeah, I mean, for the average Ukrainian, I mean, you're just seeing all your friends go off to war. The draft age is getting lower and lower and lower. More people are getting conscripted. Things are not looking good and it is awful. Speaking of awful, depressing events, Ben, the COP 29 UN Climate Summit is underway in Azerbaijan. Fun stuff. So this year's COP got off to a tough start when the United States once again elected a climate denier. That's not good. We're now waiting to see, I guess, if we get pulled out of the Paris climate Accords again. The main issue at play in this COP is once again when and how much developed countries will contribute to a loss in damage fund for developing countries. This fund would provide the means for developing countries to transition away from fossil fuels as well as money to mitigate the effects of climate change. The number that's getting kicked around that will be needed is $1.3 trillion a year, which would come from rich countries. But structuring who gets the money, how, where it comes from, is a very difficult task. It is now the second week of talks. Negotiators are still far apart. And if you think it's a little odd that the climate talks are being held in an autocracy where 90% of exports are made up of fossil fuels, you are not alone. And it didn't help that the president of Azerbaijan kicked off the conference with a speech praising fossil fuels as gifts from God. And he promptly insulted both France and the Netherlands. Before the conference, there was a video or audio going around of Azerbaijani COP official discussing a fossil fuel deal with someone pretending to be an investor. So this whole thing has not been on the level. We caught up with Semaphore's climate and Energy editor Tim McDonnell, who is in Baku for the talks. Here's what he had to say about the atmosphere.
- [44:21]
H
One thing that I think is kind of sad or sort of missing from this process when you have it in a country that doesn't have a very free civil society and press like Ajitan, is that you miss out on a lot of the kind of the protests and the marches and the civil society and the activists and, you know, people coming from all over the world that kind of stand up for what they want to see happen. And I think back to Glasgow COP a few Years ago where there was a march in the middle of the thing that had, you know, tens of thousands of people at it. And I really do think that that has an impact on the way that the actual, you know, country delegates and world leaders who are here sort of sense that pressure. And that's totally missing here. Obviously that kind of protesting and activism is not possible in this context.
- [45:13]
Tommy Vitor
So, Ben, I gotta be honest, very few things make me feel as bleak as imagining form more years of climate policy under Donald Trump. It's hard for me to find a silver lining here. You got anything? Got any pitches?
- [45:27]
Ben Rhodes
I don't. Aliyev, the president of Azerbaijan, locked up a lot of people in the run up, which is interesting because the theory behind some of these events in the past is, oh, there'll be a spotlight on this country, we'll moderate their behavior with respect to things like human rights. But they've been locking up journalists, they've been locking up people who are activists on climate. Never mind just not allowing the mass protest we saw in Glasgow. And it kind of just shows you how the geopolitical winds have shifted, that a country can feel that comfortable doing that, knowing that everybody's coming to town. And look, Tommy, I guess my only dark humor, because maybe that's how we have to find a way through this, is that if you were to write a thousand page novel about what's happening in the 2000 and 20s, you could do worse than opening it at the climate change summit that's being held in an autocratic state that has 90% of its exports on fossil fuels at the same time that Donald Trump is being elected President of the United States. It's like that's what's happening in the world right now. That kind of transactionalism, that kind of autocracy, that kind of corruption, that kind of disregard. In the same way that MAGA likes to own the libs in this country, Aliyev wants to own the climate change activists globally. That's where we are. And so we have to kind of rethink everything about how we advocate on climate. Just showing up at the COP that's in Azerbaijan and asking for more money for the loss and damage fund, that's important, but that's, that's not going to get us there.
- [47:16]
Tommy Vitor
No.
- [47:16]
Ben Rhodes
So we have to kind of go back to the drawing board about this COP process. I think the Paris agreement will continue even without the United States. But maybe like, let's have it in a, you know, the next one's in Brazil, which is good, that's the kind of place it should be, you know, in a country that is pretty serious about climate action. Not perfect, but yeah, this one is. I mean, you could, you know, I don't know what I mentioned novel. I could also see like a 10 part Hulu documentary. I mean, this sounds like in a strange way, this is the perfect encapsulation of what is happening in this world right now, you know.
- [47:54]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it's pretty dark. The only one that would be worse would be doing it in Argentina where Javier Milei is now saying he wants to lead the Paris climate agreement too. He's also someone who called climate change, quote, a socialist lie. So no surprise there. But you mentioned Brazil. Ben Biden's in Brazil right now. He's in a little international summitry. He became the first president to visit the Amazon rainforest, which is good and important. He's there to highlight the need to preserve the Amazon, to prevent logging because the Amazon takes all this carbon out of the atmosphere. Biden talked about his record on climate change. He argued that the clean energy revolution in America is irreversible, which is, you know, I think an attempt at a hopeful message. But Biden also pledged some US funding to protect the Amazon, which unfortunately will almost certainly be reversed by the Trump administration. So we're going to take a few steps back before we can go forward again. But these, these two summits, you get the G20 and APAC, most of the focus was on Trump and just to hammer that home, somehow Biden and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau missed the G20 group photo of the leaders. They were just late for some logistical reason. So on the margins, you know, Biden and the Chinese president Xi Jinping, they cut a deal agreeing that artificial intelligence will never be in control of nuclear weapons. I'm glad they got that done. But it's a little scary to think that that was like on the table.
- [49:17]
Ben Rhodes
Talk about that.
- [49:18]
Tommy Vitor
But I don't know, like there, there was some Brazil specific stuff I want to talk about. Anything else from these summits from you? I mean, I just, I like, I feel for Biden like every lame duck at a summit. You always feel like a lame duck, but it feels like it's really exacerbated this time.
- [49:31]
Ben Rhodes
I thought a lot. I went to an APAC summer with Obama after Trump's last victory and it was pretty dark, but people didn't quite know what the hell was going on. What's Trump going to be like? His team that he was rolling out, yes, it had Steve Bannon, but there were some Conventional people in the mix. I'll always be haunted, Tommy, by this comment that Xi Jinping made to Obama. I was in the meeting at that summit in Peru, Lima, the same place that Biden had an APEC summit. And Xi Jinping said about Trump, if an immature leader throws the world into chaos, the world will know who to blame. And I think we've kind of been dealing with that ever since. You see that China's doing business. This is what jumped out to me from this. Xi Jinping opened a billion dollar plus port in Peru. That's a big part of their investment to win over the global South. Through these, they build infrastructure and then they extract critical minerals for a clean energy transition. Poor Tony Blinken announced a few million dollars in diesel train engines or something. And that's not a shot at them. It's just that the Chinese are running away with this thing in terms of they have a predictable policy that they can continue administration to administration. And we're all watching the Trump show here. The rest of the world has moved on. They're aligning around China. They're aligning or they're neutral, like Lula. Guys like Lula are going to be very important. The Brazilian president in the next couple of years. Where do they go? How do they. Do they just kind of go all in with the brics, which Brazil is obviously part of, or do they kind of hedge their bets and move back and forth? Do they keep working on climate change? But you could kind of the vibes out of the summits were very. It wasn't just because these countries priced in Trump. The vibes were very much like the US Is kind of. Them not being in the picture was unfortunately a pretty apt metaphor for kind of where the world is going. And look, there's to find the opportunity. And I think you and I have talked about having conversations heading into next year, but the opportunity is we got to borrow a poorly. Well, I was gonna say build back better. It's a rebuild. We need a new foreign policy as Democrats, entirely new to deal with this world that I'm just describing, a world in which there is no liberal rules based order with the US at the center of it. There's opportunity in that, frankly. There's opportunity in a rebuild. And that's kind of how we have to start thinking what is a different foreign policy look like that is actually designed for this world that we're in. The problem with the Biden foreign policy is so much of it was designed for a world that doesn't exist anymore.
- [52:12]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, The America is back is just not going to work.
- [52:15]
Ben Rhodes
We're not going to be back in the same way.
- [52:17]
Tommy Vitor
We're going to be in a different spot. Yeah, one just Brazil specific thing we want to talk about. So there's an issue that's causing enormous problems in Brazil itself, which is sports gambling. Brazil is now the third largest market in the world for sports betting after the US and the UK. It was responsible for $21 billion in transactions last year, which is a 71% increase from four years ago. And it is so pervasive that consumer spending in the country in aggregate is down. And the GDP of Brazil could take a 0.3% hit this year because of gambling. And making things worse is the fact that many people are using credit cards or mobile loan apps to gamble and they ended up paying massive interest rates on their debt up to 430 some odd percent. But Ben, maybe the most shocking part about this whole story is that sports gambling only became legal in Brazil in 2018. Before that most forms of gambling were banned with a few notable exceptions like lotteries or horse racing. But you know, data released by the Brazilian government suggests that in August of this year, more than 20% of the funds from Brazil's welfare program was spent on sports betting. So this is impacting the poorest people in the country in a very meaningful way. In the country itself as well. The question of how it got so bad so quickly, there seems to be a few parts. I think some of it was people were isolated and bored during the pandemic and they turned to this new hobby. There is an explosion of marketing, including almost all of the soccer teams in Brazil being sponsored by sports betting companies. And there just clearly weren't anywhere near enough regulations in place to prevent abuse or prevent kids from getting on the site or prevent people from doing harpole things. So the good news is that the government has already taken steps to regulate and rein in the sports betting industry. But it was sort of an eye opening story Ben, because you know, I think people in the UK in particular are very used to gambling being sort of a pervasive part of culture about them endorsing teams. It's, it's something in the US that was, you know, everyone people had a bookie or you had to go to Vegas to gamble. And now lots and lots of states are allowing online sports gambling to happen. But you know, it's a story about how there does need to be some regulation in place, some friction in place to protect people or else, man, I mean a 0.3% hit the GDP. I mean, that is, that is a shockingly large impact from, you know, betting on a soccer game.
- [54:50]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, you're right. To highlight this, you mentioned the story to me and I was reading up on it and it's truly wild. And I guess the constructive thing I'd say to connect some of these threads that we've been talking about, there is a ripeness for a certain kind of populism that doesn't exist right now. And there's so much talk about the populism on the right, which is kind of a populism against the establishment and against the way things have been done and against identity politics in this country or whatever it is. There's a space for a populism that is basically about the people that are actually screwing most people. The people running sports gambling in Brazil, the kind of crypto bros trying to, you know, take over the American economy, the corporate malfeasance that's out there in the world, the kind of fossil fuel interests trying to undermine climate change. It's, you know, just think about what we have talked about in the last few segments. Think about the populist message that could be created about taking back power from those people. And I know you're talking to Bernie later. It's a little different than Bernie's kind of redistributionist populist message. This is about kind of how does power work. And it's kind of an inverse of what Trump's message is. Because Trump's message is power has been in the hand of these establishments. Let's break them and take it. But he wants to take it and give it to the kind of people, I guess he would probably love to invest in sports gambling. There'll probably be a Trump gambling website in this country before the end of the next year. Yeah, sorry if I just gave them an idea.
- [56:30]
Tommy Vitor
Don Jr.
- [56:32]
Ben Rhodes
So this is something that we should think about is what is that populist message that speaks to the kind of sense of pervasive corruption in all these different aspects?
- [56:41]
Tommy Vitor
Well, Don Jr. Apparently is going to go to work at a venture capital firm that is investing in anti Woke everything. They're calling it the Republican parallel economy, which I guess means I've been joking about this with friends. I'd love to see anti Woke plates, anti Woke cup, you know, anti woke catheter bags. Like what are we talking about here? This is like such a made up, nonsensical job, but this is apparently what he's going to go do for a living.
- [57:12]
Ben Rhodes
Here's the thing I'd watch on this is they want these corporations to kind of do what they want, you know, maybe give them money and things like that. There is a big tax bill coming up. What if the price for your corporate tax rate is how anti woke are you? There's going to be a lot of pressure, right?
- [57:27]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Well, there's also apparently talk about, you know, all the cuts are going to need to put in place to pay for the extension of the Trump tax cuts, which might include things like, you know, food stamps or Medicare, Medicaid. I mean, it's, it's going to be a big price tag, you're right.
- [57:39]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. Well, this is in the category of watch what Trump does, not just what he says.
- [57:43]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, that's right. Finally, Ben, you know, you and I worked in campaigns, we worked in the White House. Doing advance work for politicians can be very tough because you have to think through every minute detail. If something gets screwed up, it's on you. You got to be on the site hours and hours in advance of them showing up, usually before dawn. And then you have to relay any weird special requests and kind of be an officious little pain in the ass at times. And that is why we here at Pod Save the World want to raise a glass to salute all the staffers who worked for Paulina Brandberg, Sweden's Minister of gender equality. According to emails leaked to a Swedish tabloid, Brandberg is either extremely allergic to or just afraid of bananas. Her staff has sent a series of emails to hosts of events requesting that no bananas be in the area where she was staying. Another said that no bananas are allowed on the premises while she is at the meeting itself. And another declared that there should be no traces of bananas in the rooms where she was in. So, to her credit, when asked about it, Brandberg said it's sort of an allergy. You could say it's something that I get professional help with. But, Ben, any vegetables or fruits? Striking fear in your heart these days?
- [58:56]
Ben Rhodes
No. Me, I wonder what her source of potassium is. I. This is a new one for me. I mean, you're used to the white M and Ms. In the dressing room, but the banana thing, I mean, there's like a cilantro.
- [59:10]
Tommy Vitor
Version that's like apparently a genetic thing that I can get. There's the one I've heard of that I think I might have a little of. There's something called tryptophobia. People who don't like small clusters of, like, bumps. I feel like I like, don't like That I feel like that kind of grosses me out.
- [59:25]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. I'm trying to think about what my. I don't know.
- [59:29]
Tommy Vitor
I like spiders.
- [59:30]
Ben Rhodes
I don't like spiders. Yeah. I mean, again, animals, you know, snakes freak me out. I wouldn't want a snake in the. In the whole room. No. But isn't that a bad thing? God, that's gonna be tough. Imagine it's like your first day in the job and, you know, you just didn't know to adjust the fruit bowl. That is, you know, universal in all these conferences. I mean, the thing is, banana is pretty omnipresent. I encourage everybody to kind of keep their eyes out for bananas. You're gonna see them in a lot of places, you know.
- [60:00]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I eat a lot of. They're great in smoothies. My kids love them. The other story we considered talking about for today, but I couldn't do it because I don't like the subject matter, was some South Korean guy was trying to smuggle 320 tarantulas, 110 centipedes and nine bullet ants out of Peru, I guess, back home to South Korea to sell them 35 adult tarantulas, 285 juvenile tarantulas and bullet ants. Their sting hurts so much that it feels like you got shot and it can paralyze you. And this man had them in bags strapped to his stomach.
- [60:35]
Ben Rhodes
Okay, so first of all, that the tarantula thing is a phobia of mine. I don't want to see one of those.
- [60:40]
Tommy Vitor
I'm out.
- [60:41]
Ben Rhodes
What does sell this to? Who? Is this some weird Dr. Evil shit? You know? Is this like. Because it does seem like, you know, Dr. Evil would be sitting there at the head of the table with, you know, there's Dr. Evil at the head of the table and there's Matt Gaetz and there's Tulsi Gabbard. And they bring him in and be like, we have these bullet ants and. Because there's not like some pet purpose, you know.
- [61:03]
Tommy Vitor
No, there's some people that collect, like, exotic animals. And I think that's where the giant tarantulas come in. I guess the bullet ants can be used in traditional medicine. Maybe same with the centipedes. I don't know, man. I don't want any of this shit touching.
- [61:20]
Ben Rhodes
All these things end up basically being like a form of Viagra, too, don't they? That's the strangest thing about this. It's just like everybody thinking, you know, hey, like, I need a little bullet ant, you know?
- [61:29]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, some dude a thousand years ago found a rare shark, cut its fin off and got a boner and was.
- [61:33]
Ben Rhodes
Like, oh, apparently ever since then they've been doing that.
- [61:36]
Tommy Vitor
No, I don't think that's going on. All right, well, that's a great lead into Bernie Sanders. We're going to take a quick break.
- [61:41]
Ben Rhodes
Apologies, Bernie Sanders.
- [61:43]
Tommy Vitor
We'll talk to Senator Sanders about the war in Gaza, his frustration at the Biden administration's policy, and why he's put forward these resolutions in the Senate to try to block arms sales to cut off U.S. support for the war. So stick around for that Path of the World is brought to you by the International Rescue Committee. For more than 90 years, when crises strike, from war and violence to floods and famine, the International Rescue Committee has been there helping displaced families survive, recover and rebuild. The IRC responds within 72 hours of an emergency and stays as long as needed, providing humanitarian aid to millions of families. Right now, in crisis stricken places like Gaza, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Ukraine, severe winter weather is putting displaced families at even greater risk. Many makeshift camps can't withstand the extreme cold. Some people live without reliable electricity, while others can't afford the fuel to heat their homes. Pregnant women, children, the elderly and people with disabilities are especially vulnerable. Your tax deductible donation can help the IRC provide critical resources emergency food, clean water, shelter, fuel, medicine, blankets, winter gear and cash assistance. You can give confidently because the IRC is consistently awarded top marks by charity watchdog groups for their efficient use of donor contributions. Donate today by visiting rescue.orgrebuild that's rescue.orgrebuild Save the World is brought to you by Oracle. Even if you think it's a bit overhyped, AI is suddenly everywhere from self driving cars to molecular medicine to business efficiency. If it's not in your industry yet, it's coming fast. But AI needs a lot of speed and computing power, so how do you compete without cost spiraling out of control? Time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, or oci. OCI is a blazing, fast and secure platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, plus all your AI and machine learning workloads. OCI costs 50% less for computing and 80% less for networking, so you're saving a ton of money right now. Oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to OCI for new US customers with minimum financial commitment. Offer ends December 31, 2024. See if your company qualifies for this special offer@oracle.com world that's oracle.com world pod save the world is brought to you by Tommy John. For a guy that says he wants the best of everything, your underwear leaves a lot to be desired. Don't skimp on your base layer. Upgrade to Tommy John's second skin underwear and feel true luxury. When you wear Tommy John, you're much more comfortable so you can do everything better. Tommy John's stylish and soft second skin underwear has dozens of comfort innovations like a supportive contour pouch and breathable lightweight moisture wicking fabric with four times the stretch of competing brands. God love you if you need all that stretch, right? Everybody needs that much stretch, Tommy. Oh, there the waist. Got it. With over 20 million pairs sold and thousands of five star reviews, guys everywhere love their Tommy John. I love Tommy John. Plus wearing them right now, most valuable assets are Tommy. I'm wearing them right now. What color? What do you think? Green? Like, I don't know. Where are we? We're always covered with your best pair you'll ever wear or it's free guarantee. Tommy Johns really are the most comfortable pair of underwear you ever get. Here's what I recommend to all my listeners. Go to your underwear drawer, throw them all out, replace them entirely with Tommy John. Like Cortez burning the ships. Get 20% off your first order right now at tommyjohn.com world save 20% on second skin at tommyjohn.com world tommyjohn.com world see site for details. I am thrilled to welcome back to the show Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. Senator, good to see you.
- [65:27]
Bernie Sanders
Tommy, great to be with you.
- [65:28]
Tommy Vitor
So you published an op ed on Monday that began the United States government must stop blatantly violating the law with regard to arms sales to Israel. Can you explain why you believe that the current policy is violating the law and how these joint resolutions of disapproval that you have introduced in Congress could help stop that?
- [65:49]
Bernie Sanders
To be honest with you, this is not just my opinion. The facts are very, very clear. The Foreign Assistance act and the Arms Export Control act, what they tell us in very explicit language is United States military aid cannot go to a country which is in violation of international law and which is blocking humanitarian aid. Israel, according to the United nations, according to every humanitarian organization on the ground, according to numerous countries around the world, is in fact doing just that. They are violating international law with regard to the way they are conducting their efforts in Gaza and they are certainly blocking humanitarian aid. So no question to my mind but that it would be against the law for the United States to continue providing offensive weapons to Israel.
- [66:48]
Tommy Vitor
About a month ago, Tony Blinken, the Secretary of State, and Lloyd Austin, the Secretary of Defense. Defense, they sent a letter to the Israeli government raising concerns that the IDF was laying siege to northern Gaza. And it listed a bunch of demands, including that the IDF allow at least 350A trucks into Gaza per day or else, you know, some unspecified consequences. The suggestion was that the US Might cut off military aid to Israel. In response to that letter, the Israeli government basically did nothing. And yet the Biden administration announced that there would be no changes or consequences. What do you think happened? Why do you think the response is so consistently fluctuating?
- [67:27]
Bernie Sanders
Tommy, this is actually a very painful issue for me because I consider Joe Biden a personal friend. I work with him on many domestic issues. I can believe that on issues facing workers in America, he's probably been the most progressive president since FDR for a variety of reasons. But on this issue of Israel, they are dead wrong. And what pains me is they are embarrassing themselves. You just gave one example. But I think many of your viewers have heard Biden saying time and time and time again, I'm talking to Netanyahu. I'm angry at Netanyahu. We're going to do this, we're going to do that. Oh, but here's some more money. You continue. And Netanyahu continues to do exactly what he wants to do. So this is really almost an embarrassment in my mind for the Biden administration. And essentially, we've got to stop it. We have finally got to say to the Biden administration, you know, what? The law is the law. What is going on right now in Gaza is unspeakable. We're talking about a horrific humanitarian disaster. We're talking as we speak, Tommy, at this moment, the likelihood that many thousands of children are not only suffering malnutrition, they are actually starving to death. And every request that the Biden administration has made to Netanyahu has been totally rebuffed, laughed at, ignored. And I think finally the United States Senate has got to say, enough is enough. You ain't going to get any more money, you're not going to get any more arms while you continue to violate American law and America's sense of morality.
- [69:13]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. So we're talking on Tuesday. I believe these votes on the resolutions are Wednesday. Correct. That's a series of votes on different weapons systems.
- [69:21]
Bernie Sanders
That's right. There'll be three. We're talking about three weapon systems. We're talking about 120 millimeter tank rounds, 120 millimeter meter high explosive mortar rounds. And blocking the sale of JDAMs, which are guidance kits attached to many of the bombs dropped in Gaza. So three separate resolutions, three votes.
- [69:43]
Tommy Vitor
Right. I think sort of the elephant in the room here is that President Trump is going to be back in the White House soon. He has signaled, you know, basically full support for Netanyahu in Gaza and in Lebanon. On top of that, he just named Mike Huckabee to be his U.S. ambassador to Israel. And Huckabee is out there saying that there is no such thing as a West bank or a settler or a settlement or an occupation. Right. He's someone who sounds like he wants full annexation. How concerned are you about the Israeli government fully annexing the west bank in the next four years? And is there anything Congress can do about it?
- [70:14]
Bernie Sanders
Well, of course Congress can do something about it. And I think that a majority of the American people and a strong majority of Democrats especially and young people are sick and tired of funding a right wing extremist government which is waging all out war against the Palestinian people, including killing some 43,000 and injuring over 100,000. So the answer is, is there something that can be done? Of course there's something to be done. That's what we're starting to do tomorrow is to say to the Netanyahu government, you know what? You're not getting another nickel of US Tax pay of money unless there are fundamental, very, very deep reforms, not only in terms of your conduct, your atrocious conduct in Gaza, but on in the west bank as well. So we have the power of the purse. Look, Israel is an independent country. They can do what they want. They can become a international pariah, but they should not be able to do it with American taxpayer dollars.
- [71:17]
Tommy Vitor
I think in this election, President Trump, I think pretty successfully argued or at least convince voters that he was the anti war candidate, while the Democratic side, Kamala Harris and Joe Biden were pro war, were pro, you know, military intervention overseas. How do you think Democrats can get back the mantle of the anti war party?
- [71:37]
Bernie Sanders
Well, for a start, voting for these resolutions. And look, and by the way, on top of all that, you have our good friend Elon Musk making the very valid point that I think for the seventh consecutive time, the Pentagon, which receives something like $900 billion a year, has failed to successfully undertake an independent audit. Right. So if the Democrats, in my view, were smart, number one, they would say, you know what? President of the United States has called for an immediate ceasefire. That's what we have. President of the United States has called for A two state solution. That's what we got to have. That's what we got to work for. President of the United States said there is a humanitarian crisis. We need to bring huge amounts of aid into Gaza right now. That's what we should be calling for. And I think from a political point of view, Tommy, what you will find is that most Americans do not believe that American foreign policy and military aid should be tied to the starvation of thousands and thousands of children.
- [72:48]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the other, the foreign war that I think got a lot of attention in the election was the war in Ukraine. President Biden just allowed the Ukrainian government to use US Made Ataca missiles to hit targets within Russia. Do you support that decision this late in the presidency?
- [73:05]
Bernie Sanders
Honest to be honestly, Tommy, I heard about that. I read about it. I just don't know enough about it right now. It's something that I've got to be thinking about a little bit more.
- [73:13]
Tommy Vitor
Totally understand. Last question for you. I mean, President Trump is rolling out all these picks for his national security team. You've got Matt Gaetz, who's going to be the Attorney general. You got a Fox News host going in, Secretary of Defense Tulsi Gabbard at the dni. Many of them don't seem that qualified for the jobs. Others have some vetting issues. But on paper, the Republicans have the votes. How do you think Democrats should approach this process? Do we need to pick our battles? Do we go after all of them? What do you think?
- [73:41]
Bernie Sanders
I think you pick your battles and you, you know, the president has a right to make appointments. There are a hearing process where senators are able to ask the hard questions that need to be asked about the views, the backgrounds of the candidates. But I think a wholesale decision to oppose just point blank all of Trump's nominees would be a political mistake.
- [74:07]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I agree with you. Pick your battles. Well, Senator, thank you for talking with us and thank you for putting forward these resolutions. I think it's long past time the US Stopped funding this war in Gaza and Lebanon, by the way. And so I appreciate it.
- [74:19]
Bernie Sanders
Okay, thanks very much. Take care. Bye bye.
- [74:25]
Tommy Vitor
Thanks again to Senator Sanders for joining the show. Thanks again to the guy with the bullet ants and the tarantulas on his.
- [74:33]
Ben Rhodes
Thanks to the advanced staffers who are just clearing out those bananas.
- [74:35]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, get rid of those bananas.
- [74:36]
Ben Rhodes
The plantains, too. Just, you know, anything that looks like it.
- [74:39]
Tommy Vitor
I love a good fried plantain.
- [74:41]
Ben Rhodes
I love a good fried plantain.
- [74:42]
Tommy Vitor
Delicious, delicious. We'll end on a happy note. All right, buddy. We'll see you soon. And no one get too despondent. We got time.
- [74:49]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna get this together.
- [74:52]
Tommy Vitor
If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community@crooked.com friends. Don't forget to follow us at Crooked media on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter for more original content, host takeovers and other community events. Plus find Pod Save the World on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content and more. If you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping a review. Pod Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Ilona Minkowski. Our associate producer is Michael Gold Goldsmith. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick and engineered by Vasilis Vitopoulos. Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Phoebe Bradford, William Jones, Kirill Palaviev and Molly Lobel who upload our episodes and videos to YouTube.
- [75:57]
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