Was Jeffrey Epstein an Israeli Asset?

Summary

Pod Save the World: "Was Jeffrey Epstein an Israeli Asset?" – Summary

Release Date: July 16, 2025

In this compelling episode of Pod Save the World, hosts Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes delve into a multitude of pressing global issues, ranging from the Trump administration's foreign policies to the contentious conspiracy theories surrounding Jeffrey Epstein. The episode offers an in-depth analysis, insightful discussions, and expert opinions, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the current geopolitical landscape.

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1. Pentagon's Aspen Security Forum Withdrawal

Timestamp: [02:41]

The episode kicks off with a discussion about the Pentagon's unexpected decision to pull all its speakers from the Aspen Security Forum. This move comes amidst concerns that Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor, attending the forum might face backlash:

• Tommy Vietor expresses skepticism: "But, like, crying about Jake Sullivan attending the same conference as you is some of the softest shit I've ever heard." [03:08]

• Ben Rhodes suggests internal politics might be at play: "I saw that. And it was simultaneously, like, the most... I have to assume that part of this is that Pete Hegseth probably didn't get invited to the Aspen Security Forum." [03:03]

The hosts critique the Pentagon's decision, highlighting bureaucratic rigidity and the lack of coherent policy strategy.

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2. Trump Administration's Shifting Ukraine Policy

Timestamp: [04:35]

Tommy and Ben analyze Donald Trump's latest stance on Ukraine, noting the administration's oscillation between support and restraint:

• Tommy observes, "I initially thought this was a huge policy change. The more I dug into it, the less I was sure." [07:39]

• Ben critiques the lack of a strategic approach: "This is not a change in the war. This has been the same status quo anti." [08:58]

They discuss Trump's promise to impose secondary tariffs on European countries if a deal with Russia isn't reached in 50 days, questioning the efficacy and intent behind such measures.

---

3. State Department Layoffs and Impact on Foreign Policy

Timestamp: [16:04]

The hosts address the Trump administration's decision to lay off over 1,300 employees at the State Department, including 250 Foreign Service Officers:

• Tommy highlights key areas affected: "The Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration... The Bureau of Cybersecurity and Digital Policy..." [17:04]

• Ben Rhodes emphasizes the broader implications: "This stuff seems... like a complete retreat from any values-based proposition in American foreign policy." [19:14]

The layoffs are portrayed as a dismantling of essential bureaus that advocate for human rights and democracy, undermining the United States' global standing.

---

4. Controversial Ambassador Nominees

Timestamp: [21:00]

Tommy and Ben scrutinize the Trump administration's ambassadorial nominations, focusing on:

• Dr. Anjani Sinha nominating to Singapore, whose confirmation hearing was notably poor: "It was like a switch, flip, and they are just regurgitating these same BS talking points." [23:10]

• Nick Adams, a former Australian politician with questionable credentials, nominated to Malaysia: "These are really important countries... yet they are sending trolls or weird donors to these places." [25:24]

The hosts argue that nominating politically aligned, non-expert individuals to critical diplomatic positions undermines effective foreign policy execution.

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5. Pentagon Investigations and Venezuela Political Prisoners

Timestamp: [27:04]

The discussion shifts to Signal Gate investigations, where Pete Hegseth's Pentagon staffers are under scrutiny for potential misuse of secure communication channels:

• Tommy details the investigations: "Investigation A is being conducted by the Defense Department Inspector General's office... Investigation B is run by the Air Force Office of Special Investigations." [27:04]

• Ben connects this to broader administrative chaos: "As long as he's at the Pentagon, you're going to have this kind of air of chaos and incompetence around him." [29:09]

They also critique the administration's mishandling of political prisoner negotiations in Venezuela, highlighting miscoordinated efforts and potential corruption.

---

6. Cringeworthy Moments in Trump's Africa Forum

Timestamp: [30:04]

Tommy recounts Trump's recent forum with African leaders, emphasizing the president's lack of preparation and sensitivity:

• Tommy shares an embarrassing exchange with the Liberian President, who praised Trump's golfing: "It's like, you know, this is actually racist and embarrassing." [31:37]

• Ben underscores the missed opportunity for meaningful engagement: "He's just going to regurgitate these same BS talking points that are just completely detached from reality." [34:24]

The hosts lament Trump's superficial and patronizing approach to diplomacy in Africa, contrasting it with China's strategic investments on the continent.

---

7. Jeffrey Epstein Conspiracy Theory

Timestamp: [43:12]

A significant portion of the episode tackles the theory that Jeffrey Epstein was an asset of Israeli intelligence, a narrative gaining traction in right-wing circles:

• Tommy outlines the main points supporting the conspiracy:

  1. Robert Maxwell's alleged ties to Mossad and his mysterious death.
  2. Ehud Barak, former Israeli Prime Minister, frequently met with Epstein.
  3. Alexander Acosta's remarks suggesting Epstein belonged to intelligence services. [46:00]

• Ben critically examines the plausibility: "Look, I don't know, and I don't want to hazard a guess." [50:06]

• Tommy discusses recent denials, including Naftali Bennett’s firm rejection: "He called it categorically and totally false." [48:57]

The hosts emphasize the lack of concrete evidence, cautioning against fueling baseless conspiracy theories while acknowledging the need for greater transparency.

---

8. Israel's Internal Political Struggles and Settler Violence

Timestamp: [66:47]

Tommy and Ben explore Israeli politics, focusing on Netanyahu's faltering coalition due to disagreements over ultra-Orthodox military exemptions:

• Tommy explains the issue: "Transportation of ultra-Orthodox students into the military has created significant resentment." [66:47]

• Ben criticizes Netanyahu's political maneuvering: "His instinct is, as that time story showed, to actually perpetuate the war in Gaza and appease the far right." [58:49]

They also discuss the alarming rise in settler violence in the West Bank, highlighting the murder of Seifullah Musalit, a Palestinian American, and the broader implications for peace and accountability.

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9. Trump Administration's Tariff Policies

Timestamp: [35:00]

The hosts analyze the administration's inconsistent tariff strategies, using Brazil as a case study:

• Tommy questions the rationale behind imposing a 50% tariff on Brazil despite the U.S. having a trade surplus: "What, how is it a national defense emergency?" [36:22]

• Ben labels the policies as "illogical" and driven by Trump's whims: "Nobody fucking knows. And that's a hell of a way to be the largest economy in the world." [37:43]

They critique the administration's arbitrary economic measures, suggesting they damage international relations and economic stability.

---

10. Interview with Matt Duss on Democratic Foreign Policy

Timestamp: [70:05]

In an insightful interview, Matt Duss, Executive Vice President of the Center for International Policy and former foreign policy advisor to Bernie Sanders, outlines a progressive vision for the Democratic Party's foreign policy:

• Matt emphasizes the importance of solidarity alongside security and prosperity: "In a deeply interconnected world... using our relationships and power to support a genuinely rules-based order." [71:07]

• He advocates for non-military tools, such as foreign aid and humanitarian assistance, arguing these can promote peace and stability without resorting to force: "Helping to diminish disease and easing suffering leads to less conflict." [79:04]

• Matt critiques the current U.S. foreign policy's double standards, particularly regarding Israel and Palestine, advocating for consistent application of human rights and democratic principles: "Comparing our support for Ukraine and Gaza exposes double standards." [87:38]

The discussion highlights the need for a coherent, values-driven foreign policy that prioritizes diplomatic solutions and robust support for global human rights.

---

11. Israel's Growing Settler Violence and U.S. Response

Timestamp: [61:02]

Tommy brings attention to the recent attack on a Palestinian American, Seifullah Musalit, who was brutally beaten to death by Israeli settlers in the West Bank:

• Ben underscores the systemic issue: "This is not an isolated incident... these are religious extremists." [62:00]

• Tommy shares Musalit's family's grievances: "I have not been contacted by anyone from the U.S. government." [62:52]

They lament the lack of accountability and the double standards in addressing such violence compared to other regions, emphasizing the urgent need for U.S. intervention and support for victims.

---

Conclusion

The episode culminates with a stark critique of the Trump administration's foreign policy, highlighting its erratic nature, lack of strategic vision, and detrimental impact on global relations. The hosts advocate for a progressive, value-driven approach to foreign policy, as articulated by Matt Duss, emphasizing solidarity, rule-based international order, and the effective use of diplomatic and humanitarian tools. Additionally, the discussion on the Epstein conspiracy theory underscores the pervasive mistrust in government transparency, urging a balanced examination of allegations while rejecting unfounded claims.

Overall, this episode provides listeners with a nuanced perspective on the complexities of current international affairs, the pitfalls of partisan policies, and the imperative for ethical and strategic leadership in shaping the future of global diplomacy.

Transcript

[Tommy Vitor]

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[Ben Rhodes]

I'm Ben Rhodes.

[Tommy Vitor]

Ben Rhodes in the flesh.

[Ben Rhodes]

Cheers.

[Tommy Vitor]

Good to see you back.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yes.

[Tommy Vitor]

You remember English. You've been speaking so much French.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Austria, the Czech Republic.

[Tommy Vitor]

Pan European languages.

[Ben Rhodes]

Pan European. Well, I mean, the reality is it's interesting to be in Europe with your kids because on the one hand, you know, they notice everybody speaks English. But you have to communicate to them that that's like a real privilege.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it really is.

[Ben Rhodes]

That people from those countries have to learn other languages in ways that we don't. It's always embarrassing, actually.

[Tommy Vitor]

I know. I wish I never feel dumber than when I'm just running around the country and have no idea what I'm saying to anyone.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Though I do think probably AI will solve this problem for all of us, which is kind of cheating yeah. It's good for you to learn a language.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I guess. You know, I guess at the end of the day, like, there'll be some, you know, automated. Well, already I guess you could Google Translate, but there'll be some chip where you just suddenly speak a different language.

[Tommy Vitor]

You'll get, like, a sassy Nazi version from Brock depending on where you are.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, exactly. Well, actually, yeah, we won't know exactly what it's saying. Maybe that's a dangerous thing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, exactly. Ben, while you were gone, some big things happened, none bigger than the Pentagon pulling all of its speakers from the Aspen Security Forum. I know Jake Sullivan is attending, and they're worried he might hurt their feelings.

[Ben Rhodes]

I saw that. And it was simultaneously, like, the most. I mean, I have to assume that part of this is that Pete Hegseth probably didn't get invited to the Aspen Security Forum. That was my theory of this.

[Tommy Vitor]

See, I thought it was a troll. It felt like they, like, they agreed to have, like, 15 people speak, then at the last minute pulled the plug.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And, like, look, I say this with all due respect to the Aspen Security Forum, mostly because I'd love to get invited and dick around for a week, but who fucking cares about who's speaking in this thing? But, like, crying about Jake Sullivan attending the same conference as you is some of the softest shit I've ever heard.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, that.

[Tommy Vitor]

That was a Pentagon.

[Ben Rhodes]

It was funny because their initial statement was like this. These people are evil globalists who hate the president. United States. Did you see that one? I was like, oh, that's a little over the top. And then they came out again. They're like, and Jake Sullivan's going to be there.

[Tommy Vitor]

You knew what this organization was when you said yes.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Did you not Google it?

[Ben Rhodes]

Oh, God. Well, it's. You know, you get to go to Aspen.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it sounds great.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

So stupid. All right, we got real things to cover today. We are going to cover a lot of Trump stuff this week. We're going to talk about this big Ukraine announcement. Whether it's just a change in tone or an actual policy change, I honestly don't really know. I'm excited to hear what you think. We're going to cover the impact of the layoffs at the State Department, why some of Trump's ambassador nominees are having a tough time, why the walls are closing in on two of Pete Hegseth's top aides at the Pentagon. And then we'll get into the Trump administration's incompetence and how it's harming efforts to free political prisoners in Venezuela. We will cover the lowlights of this recent forum Trump did with African leaders, the White House, try to make sense of the latest tariff news. And then we're going to dig into the claim that Jeffrey Epstein was an agent or asset of Israeli intelligence. Because it's like the biggest story in the right wing world and because you.

[Ben Rhodes]

Need Epstein content and every crooked platform, which I totally support.

[Tommy Vitor]

So, yes, it's just like amazing to watch this story just balloon and grow and get worse and weirder.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, it's like one of those balls that gets shot out and it's just ricocheting around, you know, like there's so many different angles.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

Like I opened Twitter, like right before to see if anything happened. And because I guess I had looked at some Epstein content, the first thing was like a Kevin Spacey tweet, like, release the Epstein files. I was like, we need to hear from that guy. Like, I don't think that's the voice.

[Tommy Vitor]

We needed on this Kevin Spacey.

[Ben Rhodes]

Everybody's got an opinion about Epstein. That's the thing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yes. And it's. They're all like just firmly held. So we're also gonna take an opportunity to look at the latest news from Israel and then I'm gonna try to trigger Ben by asking him a very basic question about Cuba policy. Hope you're ready for that. Our guest this week is our friend Matt Duss. You guys have heard Matt on the show before. He worked for Bernie Sanders for a long time. He is one of the smartest, most unabashedly progressive former foreign policy thinkers in Washington. And we talk about what the Democratic Party's foreign policy should be for the remainder of the Trump era and then also going forward. So good big picture conversation with Matt.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that one.

[Tommy Vitor]

All right, Ben, so let's turn to Ukraine because it's been, it's been a head spinning couple of weeks for like people in Ukraine and then anyone trying to understand the Trump administration's policy. Last week we covered this. I think it was last week this like weird freezing and then unfreezing of weapons shipments to Ukraine. Okay, so then on Monday, Trump welcomes NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte to the Oval Office and they bill it like in the preview stories. Is it like a major Ukraine policy announcement? Here's a clip of Trump and Rutte talking with the press either before or after the meeting.

[Ben Rhodes]

We're going to be doing secondary tariffs if we don't have a deal in 50 days. It's very simple. And they'll be at 100%, and that's the way it is. That can be more simple.

[Matt Duss]

This whole deal is also about missiles or ammunition. So it's broader than Patriots.

[Ben Rhodes]

I go home, I tell the first lady, and I spoke with Vladimir today.

[Tommy Vitor]

We had a wonderful conversation.

[Ben Rhodes]

She said, oh, really?

[Tommy Vitor]

Another city was just hit.

[Ben Rhodes]

We fooled Clinton, Bush, Obama, Biden. He didn't fool me.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yes, sir. You're the only one who clocked this guy, this Putin guy so bad. I initially thought this was a huge policy change. The more I dug into it, the less I was sure. Okay, so clearly Trump's tone has changed, right? I mean, I talked about this a little fabs on Pod Save America in 2022. Trump called the full scale invasion genius. He called it savvy, and he refused to say it was illegal. So that sort of sounded pretty Putin friendly. We all watched the infamous Zelensky meeting the Oval Office in February when Trump and J.D. vance humiliated him. But these days, it does seem like Trump is increasingly angry at being lied to and humiliated by Putin, who apparently makes Trump believe he's about to get a peace deal done. And he launches like 500 drones and missiles at Kyiv. It's interesting that Melania apparently is in Trump's ear on this one. Like, good on her, I guess. But in practice, like, what does this mean? I mean, starting with the weapon shipments piece, I think what Trump is saying is that if European countries send Ukraine weapons, we will then sell those countries replacement systems. But he wants to do it via NATO and he wants to make Europe pay for it. I think that's significant when you're talking about, like, big ticket systems like the Patriot missile batteries, right? Because, like, only the US can make those. And you're not going to give it away if you can't replace it. However, it's going to take years to fill those orders. And then, like, it's just not clear what this change means for offensive weapons like artillery shells. Is the US Going to facilitate Germany sending their long range missiles that could strike within Russia? Like, there was just this Financial Times report that said Trump privately encouraged Zelensky to step up deep strikes on Russian territory and even asked if Ukraine could hit Moscow with US Weapons, which would be quite a surprising change because when Biden allowed Ukraine to hit targets in Russia, Trump accused him of trying to start World War iii. And then there's the sanctions piece, which is even thinner in my opinion. Like, Trump says Putin now has 50 days to cut a peace deal or he gets sanctioned. That would include like 100% sanctions on Russia and then secondary sanctions on countries that do business with Russia. But like the US and Russia have gone from doing 53 billion in trade in 2021 to 5 billion last year. So more sanctions from US does nothing. And I'm skeptical that Trump is going to sanction like India and China on behalf of Ukraine. But I don't know. What did you make of this with like a couple of days to digest?

[Ben Rhodes]

I do think it's worth just pointing out for the record the absolute absurdity of him thinking that he's declaring himself a genius because he's figured out Vladimir Putin's a liar. I mean, got him. Every single person in the world knows this. And frankly, all the criticisms that people like us have heaped on Trump are because he was so closely taking Vladimir Putin at his word. Yeah. And let's just clock completely credulous. Yeah. Now here's the thing. There's a shift in tone and there's yes, it would be marginally helpful to Ukraine if the US Actually delivered some of the weapons that are in the pipeline. Like some of these weapons shipments that they've announced are literally just Biden era presidential drawdowns is what they're called. So there's weapons sitting there that he's been withholding from sending to them. And yes, it would be helpful to backfill the Europeans in some way if they're providing more of these systems to the Ukrainians. The patriots are really important to this because given the missile bombardments that have been directed at Kyiv and other parts of Ukraine, they desperately need defensive systems. Now, part of the problem, as we've talked about, is US Patriot reserves are vastly depleted because of how many we've shoveled out the door to Israel or to deal with threats from the Houthis in Yemen. And so there's a broader problem across the NATO alliance. Even if you had a normal president, there's a lack of these systems. So that's something he's going to have to kind of help regenerate. And frankly, some of these Europeans, if they're talking about defense spending, this is an area where they need to focus. Here's my bigger problem. My bigger problem is, and I alluded to this last week, but Vladimir Putin has a strategy. It's very clear. It has been consistent since the beginning of the full scale invasion. After they got beat back, it was like, I'm going to fight a war of attrition. I'm going to grind down the Ukrainians I'm going to cannibalize more and more land. I'm going to bust and evade these sanctions, given my relationships, given the oil and gas I have to sell on the market. And I don't really give a shit what the Americans do because they're episodic, they surge weapons shipments, but then put the brakes on Ukraine. And this, the problem is this shift is not. There's no strategy behind it. Like, if people wanted to know what would be a case of a strategy? Well, if the US and Europe actually came together and were like, you know, we're going to take all the frozen Russian reserves, the hundreds of billions, most of which are in Europe, by the way, and actually were to make those available to Ukraine, that'd be a pretty big game changer. Or we're going to have a methodical multi year effort that we announced to provide them with both defensive systems and other systems. And we're going to say to Russia, if you don't come to the negotiating table, here's the three year plan for like the defense support to Ukraine. That would get Putin's attention. This is not a change in the war. This has been the same status quo anti. He's just going back to the Biden policy with a fake deadline. A Biden policy with a fake deadline and a lack of a real commitment. At least with Biden you kind of knew he was gonna stick with it. And so, I don't know, it's better than where things were, but it's not like a shift in strategy. And actually the thing I wanna ask you, Tommy, to bring the Epstein thing into this for a second. Oh yeah, but, but if you're maga, you know, or even like, you know, all in pod Maga tech bro Maga or bantam maga, you know, there's also the matter of like you bombed Iran, you flipped on Ukraine, they're furious. Now releasing the Epstein files. Like, what? So much for Trump being this kind of new guy with a different vision of global politics. He's, he's a guy whose vision didn't work on all these things. And so now he's just reverting back to like, you know, what anyone would do.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean the bannon is quite clear. Like he told, I think it was Politico, he said, we're about to arm people we have literally no control over. This is not the global war on terror. This is old fashioned grinding war in the bloodlands of Europe and we're being dragged into it. So he's real pissed. And as you said it comes on the heels of the Iran strikes, the Epstein stuff, like all of it. You're at the all in pod types like the shadow Secretary of State David Sacks, like, his big thing was that the Russia, Ukraine war was a disaster and it was going to start World War iii. And he's not going to be happy about this. I mean, one of Trump's advisers told Politico on background. The President's view is Russia is going to win. It's a matter of how long it takes. Russia has the bigger economy, has the bigger military, has more than enough bodies to throw at the meat grinder and just doesn't care. So it's like that's an analysis I think a lot of experts would agree with. But you're also, you're kind of signaling to Putin there that, that in the long run, like we know you're going to take this thing. So we just kind of want a ceasefire. There is this other issue of like the Senate is working on even tougher sanctions to. Trump said at that meeting, like he didn't need them yet, but he kind of sounded like he wanted them as leverage. Lindsey Graham says stay tuned for a plan about going after Russian assets in Europe. So maybe that's something they have in the offing, but like we don't know. But Ben, did you, did you notice who's going to be coordinating this effort? Did you catch that?

[Ben Rhodes]

I didn't catch that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Do you remember Matt Whitaker? Oh, yeah, from Trump 1.0.

[Ben Rhodes]

Of course. Who could forget Matt?

[Tommy Vitor]

Matt Whitaker, acting attorney general from 2018 to 2019, once was on the board of a company that sold big dick toilets. Toilets, masculine toilets for well endowed men. Because frankly, we've all been there and it's one of the last kind of bastions of legal discrimination.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, yeah, I'm sure that prepares him to deal with like Patriot Systems, right?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, no, for sure, no.

[Ben Rhodes]

But this is a relevant point though, because look, this is what's so frustrating is the short termism of his approach to everything. In a world where people like Putin have very long term views of things, it just doesn't allow for strategy. And also the Ukrainians, everybody's so desperate to get Trump's approval that everybody else is. The Ukrainians are making huge shakeups to their own government, for instance, and people should watch that space. I think more is coming. They yanked their ambassador out of D.C. because she was seen as too friendly to Democrats. Mark Ruta, you know, calls Trump daddy just so he'll do this right, sends.

[Tommy Vitor]

These texts but there's this kind of.

[Ben Rhodes]

Desperate like desire to get to Trump because to your Matt Whitaker point, who is running the policy in this administration on Ukraine, we ought to pause apparently because of this guy Eldridge Colby at the Pentagon.

[Tommy Vitor]

But really, Pete Hegseth signed off on it. Yeah, yeah, but maybe Trump knew about it and is just screwing Hegseth. Like you don't know.

[Ben Rhodes]

And that's the thing. Marco Rubio is the Secretary of State and National Security advisor. Who are the top people in Ukraine, in the government. It's just people trying to get Trump's attention so that the thing he says at the next pool spray or the next weapons shipping can get out the door. You're not gonna have a coherent strategy for how to deal with Russia's invasion of Ukraine that way. I mean, the episodic nature, the different personalities kind of parachuting in and out of this thing, like the NATO alliance having to spend and the Ukrainian government, how much time do you think they spend just figuring out how to kiss Trump's ass to keep the weapons shipments flowing? That's time they should be spend spending figuring out what is like a long term. What's their negotiating position, what's the long term security guarantee for Ukraine. That's what's so damaging about this. It's just trying to get to the next month in a war in which Vladimir Putin knows very clearly what he's doing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. While Steve Wyckoff tries to negotiate every deal and your diplomats are sidelined. Well, speaking of them, it has been a tough week for folks at the State Department because last week I think over 1300 people were laid off. It was like 1100 civil servants, 250 foreign service officers. This is part of Rubio's goal of shedding 15% of the State Department's 18,000 domestic employees. So some of the departments that were hardest hit include the Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration Office, which settles resettles refugees in the US So I guess like no surprise they're getting laid off since we don't we only accept white South Africans now. The Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, because we don't care about that stuff anymore. The coordinator for Afghan relocation efforts. So like just going to leave quarter million Afghans waiting to resettle here in limbo, which is inexcusable. The Office of Global Women's Issues, the Bureau of Cybersecurity and Digital Policy that the Washington Post says that Bureau handled U.S. engagement with partner countries to prevent China from prevailing in AI and 5G wireless technologies and global Data policy seems important. Seems like the kind of stuff Trump would care about.

[Ben Rhodes]

This stuff seems.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, no, for sure. But like that one seems like a very like Trump focused thing. They got rid of some bureaus within the Bureau of East Asian and Pacific Affairs. One that deals with asean, like multilateral institutions. The other that deals with the Quad, which for non dorks is like Australia, India, Japan, the U.S. they also fired like the post says, they fired two experts in quantum technology, a scientist with a Ph.D. in quantum physics, three experts in AI. So again, like all things that seem future focused. Ben, I have conflicting views on this. Like, I feel horrible for the individuals getting fired. They deserve to be treated better. Like, obviously. It also seems weird to constantly talk about pivoting to Asia and then fire a bunch of bureaus full of experts focused on Asia. But I also think anyone who's worked at the State Department would agree that the structure is a little unwieldy. It can be random, it can be redundant. Reform might be a good thing, but I don't know enough about these reforms to kind of like evaluate them. I was talking to someone today at State who said, you know, the structural changes to the Bureau of Asian affairs made sense to this person. But I don't know, what was your takeaway on sort of seeing what they've done? It wasn't doge in that it was like two weeks at least was a process.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, I mean, first of all, what they're signaling is like a complete retreat from any values based proposition in American foreign policy. So they're deliberately getting. Every bureau they got rid of is basically one that either interacts with the international multilateral system or anyone that works on a values proposition, right? Like drl, democracy, human rights and labor, like that. Those are the people that advocate for dissidents. Those are the people that, you know, pressure countries on human rights. Like. So if you couple this with the doging of usaid, this is now a completely valueless foreign policy. Like we and people might say to me, well, Ben, it's always been that way. No, it was hypocritical. But you had people that were out there advocating on certain things within the system, within the US Government. If people want to know, well, why do you need these people in these own bureaus? It's because their equity. They're there to argue for these things. We need to pay more attention to human rights. You get rid of that. Nobody's. No one prioritizes. Yeah, no, it's nobody's job to raise those issues. That's that's I don't like to see those things go. Even if I think you probably could have consolidated some of them.

[Matt Duss]

Right, right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Move some pieces more efficient.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. The other thing is I think there was an talking to people at State. This is kind of done. Like for instance, some of the foreign service officers that work in those bureaus, they rotate, right. So you know what I mean? Like, yeah, they're not in the bureau for life. So if you happen to be rotated, it's like a musical chair bad luck. And yeah, you might have been in the East Asia bureau that everybody says is okay, but. And you might have been at an embassy last year and you were rotated through one of these other bureaus and then you just got.

[Tommy Vitor]

Good point.

[Ben Rhodes]

So even though it was ostensibly done with some forethought, it actually wasn't from a personnel basis because in talking to people you just drew the short straw. If you happen to be currently posted somewhere that you know, that the Trump administration didn't like, you know.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, that sucks. Yeah, that really sucks. I thought of it in terms of like, kind of removing like kind of boxes on an org chart. I didn't think of it in terms of the rotation. That is, that's just terrible.

[Ben Rhodes]

And so you don't know. There's no talent evaluation. It's not like, you know, performance evaluations. It was literally just like, how can we give this whole agency, State Department a haircut? And, and look, I think the US is going to suffer from being valueless and losing a lot of those people even if, yes, you could have done a more coherent reorganization. State Department.

[Tommy Vitor]

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[Ben Rhodes]

What year is Singapore next scheduled to be the ASEAN Chair?

[Matt Duss]

This year is Malaysia.

[Ben Rhodes]

I didn't ask you about this year. When is Singapore going to be the ASEAN Chair?

[Matt Duss]

I don't know when, but this year 2027.

[Ben Rhodes]

Can you name one thing that will be of critical importance to Singapore as ASEAN Chair? A role? There are many things. Can you name one?

[Tommy Vitor]

Defense.

[Matt Duss]

Economics.

[Ben Rhodes]

Those are very broad. Name, name an issue. Trade. I don't think. No, please. I'm trying to help you here. But you've not even done your homework.

[Tommy Vitor]

Homework?

[Ben Rhodes]

Sir, I just feel that you are not taking this seriously. And you think this is a glamour posting, that you're going to live a nice life in Singapore. What we need is someone who's going to actually do the work.

[Tommy Vitor]

Pop quiz. And you failed some stuff. BBC says the cliffs in that hearing have gone viral in Singapore, resulting in comments like Quote not sure which is a worse insult. The tariffs are having him as an ambassador to Singapore and this guy is more embarrassador than Ambassador Zing Ben. And then we have influencer Nick Adams who is nominated to be US Ambassador to Malaysia. Adams is a former Australian politician who was suspended from his party for verbally abusing a journalist. He then foisted himself upon America and became a naturalized citizen in 2021, a process he documented in a book called Green Card Warrior. My Quest for Illegal Immigration in an Illegal System. Now he just seems to spend all of his time on Twitter doing what I think is a bit but like the line between satire and reality is not always clear. Here's a sample tweet quote. I go to Hooters. I eat rare steaks. I lift extremely heavy weights. I read the Bible every night. I am pursued by copious amounts of women. I'm wildly successful. I have the physique of Greek God. I have an IQ over 81 80. I'm extremely charismatic. They hate this. Can confirm he does not have the physique of a Greek God. Adam's appointment has rustled ruffled some feathers in Malaysia, predominantly Muslim country to which the US usually sends seasoned foreign foreign service officers. Yeah. Not people who sort of tweet Islamophobic things. Ben did Trump name like a PA Twitter account to be a US ambassador just to troll the libs like to a country of 35 million people.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's pretty clear that the people in charge of personnel in the Trump administration prioritize kind of trolling, owning libs rewarding like the most dead end MAGA people. I just wanted to connect these two people should know and most worldos obviously do. But ASEAN, these are the 10 Southeast Asian countries. If there is one region in the world that is most important to this question of the US China competition to the future of dealing with issues like climate change. Right. To who's going to buy Chinese AI or American AI? We can go on down the list. Will a war start in the South China Sea? That's the kind of thing that you want Singapore chairing the ASEAN thing to be addressing things like the South China Sea. It's easy to kind of snicker I guess and troll. Assign trolls or weird donors to these places. These are really important countries. Like Singapore is our hub for how you engage all of Southeast Asia. Right. And Trump talks about China all the time but he clearly doesn't give a shit about having any kind of coherent strategy for how to think about China. If this is how he deals with some of the most important countries in Asia in Singapore and Malaysia. That's what jumps out to me. And how can Marco Rubio see we're actually taking seriously this effort to kind of revitalize the State Department and then make the face of the U.S. state Department and a really important part of the world? These fucking clowns.

[Tommy Vitor]

You don't think the Hooters guy is gonna do it?

[Ben Rhodes]

And look, we could add. Tommy, we've talked about this before, and we'll piss off some people we know. But, like, one way Democrats could show an alternative that cares more about the Foreign Service is to commit to making it the norm to appoint Foreign Service officers. Ambassador to all these places.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, no, really make a list of what the politicals would be and just end it there. I totally agree.

[Ben Rhodes]

And it should be an exception. Yes, there are some. Doesn't mean that there's not. We know some people who are great ambassadors to, you know, certain countries who were. Yes, they were donors or they're, you know, political people, you know, but. But the norm should be Foreign Service officers.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yes, for sure. They're experts for a reason.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Ben, a couple updates on two stories. We've covered a bunch. One is Signal Gate and the administration sending Venezuelan men to rot in prison in El Salvador. So first, the listeners probably remember Signal Gate. I don't need to summarize it, as the administration was conducting airstrikes on the Houthi rebels in Yemen via the commercial app Signal, which is a big no, no, especially when you add a journalist to the chat like Jeffrey Goldberg. Politico reported that there are now two investigations into Pete Hegseth's secretary of Defense's staff over at the Pentagon. Investigation A is being conducted by the Defense Department Inspector General's office and is looking into whether a Hexa staffer named Ricky Buria set up this separate Internet line that was kind of unburdened by the Internet Pentagon security protocols that allowed him to use Signal in his office. Investigation B is run by the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. They're also investigating Berea and whether he was leaking information. And they're also looking at whether Hegseth's personal attorney, Tim Parlatore, attended meetings above his security clearance level. Politico called them like, these are, like, Pete's two most trusted guys. So this is a big political problem in crisis for him. So we'll keep watching this one. And then on the Venezuelan sent to El Salvador by, you know, Stephen Miller and the Trump administration, According to the New York Times, both Secretary of State Marco Rubio and then sentient Twitter troll turned special envoy to Venezuela, Rick Grinnell, were trying to negotiate the release of political prisoners in Venezuela at the same time with the same interlocutor in Venezuela. But they didn't coordinate with each other and they ended up offering, like, different incentives to the Venezuelans. Rubio offered the release of these dudes in El Salvador. Rick Grinnell offered a license to allow Chevron to export oil from Venezuela. But Grinnell apparently didn't even have, like, authorization to make that offer because that's.

[Ben Rhodes]

The most corrupt thing possible to be offering. Right. Some oral interest that he probably has. You know, Great work, everybody. Yeah. To connect these two, they're both about the kind of chaos. Again, like, there is a cost to having completely unserious people like Pete Hegseth running the Pentagon. The culture there is going to reflect his personality. It really is. It filters down. And the people he chooses, the actions he takes. As long as he's at the Pentagon, you're going to have this kind of air of chaos and incompetence around him, and we'll see if Trump sticks that out. But across the board, there's nobody running a process. You can laugh at the National Security Council and the jargon acronyms. Yeah. But, like, you need a meeting where the State Department and the Defense Department and the Intelligence Committee are sitting at table being like, what is our plan to get the political prisoners out of Venezuela? Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

And when Hag says, like, are we all good with me freezing weapons shipments? You guys are cool.

[Ben Rhodes]

Can we just double check that?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

And I love how this reflects the kind of personal prerogatives. Right. Grinnell has this whiff of corruption. Like, everything is about some money interest. Right. There's a real estate interest in this country in the Balkans, and then there's a oil interest in Venezuela. Rubio loves to kind of horse trade with his friend Bukele. Like, but these, there's no strategy behind any of this. Right. This connects to the end thing. It's just, what is this all adding up to?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. Like, did we send these dudes to El Salvador with the goal of eventually trading them for American political prisoners? Like, why would Venezuelans want these dudes? Like, they all try to seek asylum in the U.S. i mean, none of it really makes sense.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, and also, again, there's always been hypocrisy part of American foreign policy. But, like, we advocate for, like, the release of prisoners in Venezuela while adding prisoners in El Salvador. Like, we're sending people to gulags run by a dictator in El Salvador, while demanding that the dictator in Venezuela, you know, abides by, quote, unquote, human rights. You know, like, we clearly don't give a shit.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, yeah. Actually, I think your life as a prisoner, you have fewer rights, legally speaking, after the state of exception was filed in El Salvador than you do in Venezuela. So things are actually worse there then. We also wanted to highlight one of the cringier moments Trump has given us recently. So, last week, he hosted the leaders of Gabon, Guinea Bissau, Liberia, Mauritania, Senegal. At the White House, they were discussing, as Trump put it, shifting from aid to TR a d. Like, I think he's trying to make a USAID to trade aid to trade. After Liberian President Joseph Bokai spoke, Trump had this to say.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, thank you. And such good English.

[Tommy Vitor]

Such beautiful.

[Ben Rhodes]

Where did you learn to speak so beautifully? Were you educated? Where? In Liberia? Well, that's very interesting. It's beautiful English. I have people at this table can't speak nearly as well.

[Tommy Vitor]

So, for the record, Liberia's official language is English. The country was built by freed African American slaves. Their capital is Monrovia, named after James Monroe. So this was quite racist and embarrassing. The meeting also showed how these foreign leaders have gotten the memo that Trump likes flattery and bribes. The president of Senegal literally said, quote, I know you are a tremendous golf player. Golf requires concentration and precision, qualities that also make for a great leader. So perhaps an investment could be made in a golf course in Senegal that would be an opportunity for you to show off your skills on the golf course. Ben, thoughts on this innovative approach to the continent of Africa?

[Ben Rhodes]

It's just, I mean, again, the common theme here, right, is this is like the cringe. Like, it's impossible to overstate how insulting this is to not just people in Liberia, to everybody around the world, basically, including, by the way, to the black community in this country that has deep ties to Liberia. Not that Trump gives a shit about any of this. Every now and then, you have to be reminded that this guy is clever, but he's a fucking moron. There's been this effort to kind of. I don't even say to kind of smartwash Trump, right? I mean, Liberia is not a tough one. People don't know much about the history of the continent of Africa. If you're American, you kind of know about Liberia.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, you probably learned about it in school.

[Ben Rhodes]

You probably learned about it in school. The flag looks like our flag. Like, it's not a hard one. The briefing memo what kind of prep is he getting, right, to not even have someone prepare him that these people speak English? So that's one thing. But the other thing is there is a huge, I think, in MAGA spaces, and I think it bleeds into the mainstream media too, because these people kiss his ass. There's. Well, maybe he's onto something. Something. Nothing is changing. They just flatter him, right? Or they just give him like a fairly corrupt concession, like a golf course. US Interests are not being advanced here. China has a Africa strategy that they've stuck to for a long time. They know what language people speak, they know what kind of investments they want to make. Like Trump, even if he has a strategy, it's like, we want these critical minerals China has been working up, not just China. I don't want to just make this like a Cold war kind of thing, but Europeans do, too, like the Indians do, the Emiratis do. People take Africa very seriously because it's a very serious place, right?

[Tommy Vitor]

Growing population, like a lot of resources. But also, I mean, I'm sure Trump walked out of there, he was like, huh, do I want a golf course in Senegal? Maybe we'll send Eric.

[Ben Rhodes]

No. And he walks out of there and thinks, like, I'm a genius because they all kiss my ass. But they're kissing his ass to just get through the fucking meeting and to try to avoid tariffs. They're not making, like, meaningful deals with us. It's. And this is the short termism of Trump. It's like, it's. I need to get through the next meeting, I need to get through the next day, I need to get through the next week. But there's no US Strategy informing any of this. It's just all Trump's own impulses.

[Tommy Vitor]

Speaking of no strategy informing decision making, let's talk about tariffs.

[Ben Rhodes]

There you go.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like us, the entire world are trying to understand the Trump tariff policy. One example, I think that that highlights what you were just talking about, which is like kind of the incoherence of it all is the administration treatment of Brazil. So last Wednesday, Trump threatened Brazil with a 50% tariff because he's upset about, quote, unquote, the witch hunt against Jair Bolsonaro, former President of Brazil. Bolsonaro is being prosecuted by Brazilian courts for conspiring to violently overthrow Brazil's current democratically elected government. So obviously, Trump sanctioning them over this is nuts. And you could tell that ABC News's John Carl thought as much. And he interviewed Trump's economic advisor, Kevin Hassett, on ABC News on Sunday. And it was a very, very painful. Listen, check it out. Here's a clip. Brazil had a $6.8 billion surplus last year. In fact, the US hasn't had a trade deficit with Brazil since 2007. I mean, almost two decades. So why, why, why are we putting a punishing 50% tariff on Brazil? Well, bottom line is the President has been very frustrated with negotiations with Brazil and also with the actions of Brazil. In the end though, you know, we're trying to put America first. I don't understand how you're saying it's about America. Cuz the President has made it quite.

[Ben Rhodes]

Clear that what he's upset about is.

[Tommy Vitor]

How the Brazilian Supreme Court has handled the criminal case involving former President Bolsonaro. I'm agreeing with you. What I'm saying is that what I've been saying with most countries was that it's really about us getting the tariffs in order. And I think that this tariff for Brazil is a lot higher because of the President's frustration with Bolsonaro and the fact that Bolsonaro himself, you know, anyway, on what authority does the President have to impose tariffs on a country because he doesn't like what that country's judicial system is handling a specific case? Well, I mean, how, how is that it's a national defense emergency or if he thinks a national security threat that he has the authority under aipa. So, so how is it a national.

[Ben Rhodes]

Security threat that, you know, how Brazil.

[Tommy Vitor]

Is handling a criminal case against this former President? Well, that's not the only thing.

[Ben Rhodes]

That's not the only thing.

[Tommy Vitor]

No. John Carl lunch for him, huh?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

That was a very long clip on purpose just to show how painful it was. And we cut it in half.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Went on for so much longer. So remember the initial Liberation Day tariffs were like, seemingly all based on the US trade deficit with these countries. And as John pointed out there, we've had a trade surplus with Brazil since 2007. Ben, the bigger picture, though, to your point, does Trump think that crushing the Brazilian economy is going to somehow benefit Bolsonaro politically? Doesn't that seem like illogical to you?

[Ben Rhodes]

This is all illogical. And the reality is what Trump enjoys is this capacity to just turn the dial up and down on tariffs on each country based on his whims. Sometimes it may be a personal corruption interest, like I want a golf course. Sometimes it may be that he just heard about something that they were doing to Bolsonaro and he's like, I'm going to tariff them. Right. Sometimes it may be some Trade strategy. But the point is nobody fucking knows. And that's a hell of a way to be the largest economy in the world. And Brazil is a hugely, hugely important economy. What they're going to do is they're going to try to figure out how to us proof their economy from this kind of insanity. Right? So put aside the fact that this is insane, that we're basically interfering in their politics on behalf of a guy that tried to January, literally tried to January six the election result and wanted there to be a military coup in that country. So the interest we're claiming under these dubious authorities is that we want to support the anti democratic right wing autocrat in his efforts to get off for having tried to perpetrate a coup. That's what we're interfering in, their politics.

[Tommy Vitor]

National security emergency.

[Ben Rhodes]

So, so the rest of the world sees that. And how do you think they're gonna take lectures from Marco Rubio, anticipating your Cuba question about like democracy anywhere in the Western hemisphere when we're interfering on behalf of the autocrat? But more profoundly, Brazil is going to plug their economy into China, they're gonna plug their economy into India, they're gonna plug their economy into Europe. They're gonna do everything they can. This huge, important country, like this biggest country in South America, like huge exporter of commodities, lots of those natural resources Trump says he wants. They're gonna, they could make deals with China to replace American soybean producers, putting a lot of American farmers out of work. Right. Like all these interests are gonna suffer because Trump is wants to personally kind of turn this dial up and down based on the last thing he heard from somebody.

[Tommy Vitor]

And like Bolsonaro, the plot was to like kill Lula, like the current president to kill the head of the Supreme Court in Brazil. Like, it's pretty serious shit. Yeah, this guy's also just like a scummy thug.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, but he's tight with like Don Jr. Right? I mean, this is global access of crappy right wing populist autocrats that fucking suck, you know, and we're like interfering in their politics on their behalf everywhere.

[Tommy Vitor]

And Lula will probably run on it and you know, stoke nationalism and probably.

[Ben Rhodes]

Go up in the polls.

[Tommy Vitor]

As he should. As he should.

[Ben Rhodes]

I'm rooting for Lula, like, you can go at me, all you MAGA people, like, because why is it in America first interests to like help this fucking loser in Brazil have a military coup? I don't think that's in America's interest. I think that's not America First.

[Tommy Vitor]

It is not it is not America First. All right, Ben, we're take a quick break but before we do, I just want to tell the audience about a really cool program that Votes Save America is working on. It's a brand new pilot program. It is to recruit candidates to run for office in Arizona, North Carolina and Texas. We're not talking about Senate, Congress, we're talking about school board, city council, State Legislature, these lower down the ballot races that shape communities and build a bench for the Democratic Party in the future. And so we're going to kick things off with a live call this Wednesday, July 16th. I'll be there along with the Votes of America team and their partners who are driving this work to talk about what it takes to run and how we can help support these candidates every step along the way. Now, if you're listening and you've ever thought about running for office, this is where you could start. Sign up for the kickoff call and learn [e-mail] Run Again this is a pilot program for Arizona, North Carolina and Texas. So I'm sorry if you live in in a different state, but you welcome to join the call votesaveamerica.com run paid for by votesave america. You can learn more at votesaveamerica.com this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. Podcasting of the World is brought to you by Quints. I'm not into chasing trends, but I am all about stuff that fits right, feels good, and actually lasts. That's why I keep coming back to Quints. Their lightweight layers and high quality staples have become my everyday essentials. The best part about getting a little older is you can tell people, you know what? Those wide LED Janco jeans you're wearing? They didn't look good in the 90s either. They don't look good now.

[Ben Rhodes]

Wow.

[Tommy Vitor]

Get off my lawn, says Tommy. Get off my lawn.

[Ben Rhodes]

Those wide leg pants.

[Tommy Vitor]

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[Matt Duss]

One more expensive and more complicated than the last.

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[Ben Rhodes]

And I think the real answer is Jeffrey Epstein was working on behalf of Intel Services, probably not American. How does a guy go from being a math teacher at the Dalton School in the late 70s with no college degree to having multiple airplanes, a private island and the largest residential house in Manhattan now? No one's allowed to say that that foreign Government is Israel, because we have been somehow cowed. Like, what the hell is this? You have the former Israeli Prime Minister.

[Tommy Vitor]

Living in your house.

[Ben Rhodes]

Were you working on behalf of Mossad? Were you running a blackmail operation on behalf of foreign government? By the way, every single person in Washington, D.C. thinks that. I've never met anyone who doesn't think that.

[Tommy Vitor]

So obviously an explosive claim. And just, you know, with the caveat that some people kind of pushing this line are have a tendency to blame the Jews for everything, like, all the time.

[Ben Rhodes]

No kidding.

[Tommy Vitor]

We wanted to take the charge seriously, kind of look at the evidence and try to understand if it's even, like, kind of logically possible that the Mossad would use someone like Epstein. So forgive me for the sort of the length of this, but there's basically like, three pieces of evidence that are usually pointed to to support this claim. The first is that Robert Maxwell, who's the father of Epstein's former partner accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell's dad, Ghislaine Maxwell is currently serving time in prison. She got 20 years in this case.

[Ben Rhodes]

Wealth is well earned. 20 years.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well earned. 20 years. Yeah. Robert Maxwell is rumored to have worked for the Mossad himself. He also was rumored to have worked for the MI6 and the Soviets and others. But anyway, Mossad was sort of like the thing he was often attached to in the press. Maxwell, he escaped the Nazis. He fought for the British during World War II. Afterwards, he built this powerful publishing and media conglomerate that at its peak had, like 16,000 staff. He served in parliament in the 60s and 70s. And then he. So he's a powerful guy. But he died under what many people consider suspicious circumstances in 1991, after he fell off his yacht, the Lady Ghislaine, which is off the Canary Islands. Some people believe that the Mossad killed him. That theory was featured in a book called Robert Maxwell, Israel's Super Spy. After his death, it came out that he had stolen around $500 million from his company's employee pension fund to prop up his business empire. So obviously, that could be a reason.

[Ben Rhodes]

Other people might want to kill off yourself.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, or be killed. But when he was alive, you know, Maxwell strongly denied working for the Mossad, and he threatened legal action against those who said he did. Though after he passed away, his funeral was attended by Israeli, you know, heads of state. He was buried on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. So it's like there's a lot of, like, kind of fodder people point at and say, look at connections. The Second piece of evidence is that former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak frequently met with Jeffrey Epstein, visited his properties, flew on his jet, received investment money from his foundations. The Wall Street Journal reported a lot of these details in 2023, but some of it was known back in 2019 around Epstein's arrest. And then the third piece of evidence, which Megyn Kelly in particular has kind of like, touted, is that while being vetted to serve as Trump's first term, Secretary of labor, Alexander Acosta allegedly explained away the unconscionably lenient plea deal he gave to EPSTEIN Back in 2007, 2008, when he was u. S. Attorney in Miami, by saying that he had been told to back off of Epstein because Epstein, quote, belonged to intelligence. Now, I believe that quote was reported in one place. It was the Daily Beast. It was hearsay even then. The journalist who reported it at the time has since said she doesn't think that Epstein was tied to the Mossad. But Acosta didn't exactly help himself when he was asked about this, and he gave this bizarre answer to a reporter at a press conference.

[Matt Duss]

Terry, were you ever made aware at.

[Tommy Vitor]

Any point your handling of this case.

[Matt Duss]

If Mr. Epstein was an intelligence asset of some sort Of.

[Ben Rhodes]

So, so, so, so there has, there has been reporting to that effect. And, and let me say there's been reporting to a lot of effects in.

[Tommy Vitor]

In, in this case.

[Ben Rhodes]

Not just now, but over the years.

[Tommy Vitor]

And, and again, I would, you know, I would hesitate to take this reporting as fact. I can't address it directly because of our.

[Ben Rhodes]

Our guidelines. But I can tell you that, that a lot of reporting is just going down rabbit holes.

[Tommy Vitor]

A few more questions that clears it up.

[Ben Rhodes]

So tailor made to perpetuate a conspiracy theory.

[Tommy Vitor]

Exactly, exactly. And I get he probably, like, was. Had made all kinds of agreements where he couldn't talk about evidence of the case, but still, that was disastrous. On Monday, the former prime minister of Israel, Naftali Bennett, tweeted this long Twitter denial of the accusations that Epstein worked for or ran a blackmail ring on behalf of the Mossad. He called it categorically and totally false. He signaled out Tucker Carlson for spreading it. I'm not even going to get into the claims that people were making on Twitter about FBI Director Cash Patel's girlfriend. They're saying that she's part of Mossad because they're like, just. It's so.

[Ben Rhodes]

Because the conspiracy theory has to keep growing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it has to keep growing. It's just clearly baseless, though. It is very funny that the argument essentially is, why would this hot girl date this ugly guy if it wasn't a honey pot? That is like the gist of what they're saying. Sorry for the long wind up. Ben, what do you think? What's your take on these series? Like, is he Mossad? Is he MI6, CIA, triple agent? Do we think that. Would a person like this actually be valuable to an intelligence agency just because he had money, because he had connections? I don't know. How do you think about it?

[Ben Rhodes]

Look, I don't know, and I don't want to hazard a guess. What I'd say. Is this based on what we know about Epstein? Just from what's been in the public record, if this man is operating a massive child sex trafficking operation with. Seems like not only is he having sex with young women, underage women, but he's making them available to rich and powerful people. He's got an island, all these things. And there are people, very powerful people, politicians, you know, global figures. I mean, just to take the people whose names are always out in the open. Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Ehud Barak, you know, intelligence agencies, any really good intelligence agency would know that. Right? Because they'd be monitoring these people. Right. And yes, part of what intelligence agencies do is they try to gather incriminating personal information about people so that they might be able to blackmail them, so that they might be able to go to a powerful person and say, hey, we know that you were doing X at Jeffrey Epstein's island. If you don't want that in the press, like, I don't. Again, I'm answering your question of, like, hypothetically, what might be.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right. Yeah, of course.

[Ben Rhodes]

And that would be the interest.

[Tommy Vitor]

Clearly, none of us know, so we're just.

[Ben Rhodes]

No, but that would be the interest. And that's an obvious interest. Of course. Intelligence aid, that's what they often do. They try to get information on people to turn them or try to get them to do things right or to just try to have a way to make people, you know, you want them to back off something, you know, we're investigating something about you. Hey, if you guys keep poking around here, we could put this stuff out about you. That's the game of intelligence here. And this is actually why to kind of join the weird chorus of voices here. There needs to be more transparency. The whole world does know that there were a lot of powerful people who are connected to something very odious here. And these pieces seem to add up to something more than what we've been told and so I actually think there really is a great interest here in transparency. Right. And it may or may not validate your preferred conspiracy theory, but there's something. The more you seem to back off this thing, the more you're just going to feed and fuel these conspiracy theories.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I think there's a great interest in getting more information. Historically speaking. We know that kind of like honey pot or like sort of sexual based kind of blackmailer operations has been something that a number of intelligence services done.

[Ben Rhodes]

And I'm sure, by the way, and I'll just say I'm sure the Mossad has done it and I'm sure others have done it too. Russian intelligence has certainly done it.

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh, for sure, for sure. But I think your bigger picture point is the important, like there has to be more transparency just because people that are kind of steeped in this stuff, like, just have a lot of reasons not to trust the US government. Like I don't know the truth here either, but like literally this week the Washington Post reported on new documents unearthed by the House of Representatives about the JFK assassination. And these documents prove that the CIA has been lying about its connection with Lee Harvey Oswald for 60 years. You know, and a lot of this was suspected and reported on. But these documents prove that a CIA officer based in Miami in 1963 was helping finance and oversee a group of students opposed to Fidel Castro. And the CIA lied about the existence of this guy to the Warren Commission in 1964, to Congress in 1978, and to a special commission on assassinations in 1998. And even Shadier Ben in, in 78, this same guy who was running these, the students in Miami was named the CIA liaison to the Congressional committee trying to dig into the Kennedy assassination and get documents from the CIA. And then he stonewalled them. It was obstructing them. And then he was given an award by the CIA, like a lifetime achievement award by the agency in 1981. So like, clearly, like it's not just that, like these aren't like ancient sins by the CIA. This like, yes, this shit happened in the 60s, but the lying about it has been until present day.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. And this connects to the Epstein thing in this way, which is that there's kind of two different reasons why you stonewall information being released. Sometimes it's because there really is a conspiracy. There's something really nefarious that you're trying to cover up. Sometimes it's because you're just embarrassed, you know?

[Tommy Vitor]

Exactly.

[Ben Rhodes]

And so with the Oswald stuff, some of this is, it's pretty embarrassing that this fucking guy like was able to shoot the President of the United States like right after he, you know, walked into the Soviet and Cuban embassies in Mexico. Like why wasn't anybody kind of picking this thing up? But that's not a good reason to cover shit up either. And it perpetuates this. I imagine if I had to guess that part of the stuff in the Epstein files is it's fucking embarrassing for everybody involved. Maybe the Mossad, maybe Donald Trump, maybe Bill Clinton, maybe, you know, list your person. I don't know, cuz I haven't seen the documents. But not having transparency because something is embarrassing is what makes people cynical. It makes people think that powerful, interested institutions don't give a shit about them. One other thing I want to say was interesting, that Tucker clip. Just build on what we said last week, the inability to have the conversations about this stuff. The crowd kind of went nuts when he said Israel. Right? I know, like if you don't allow space to talk about like the real stuff, you're going to have more and more conspiracies whether whatever the issue is, whether it's Israel or whether it was the fucking Kennedy assassination, like you know, covering stuff up cuz it's embarrassing or cause politically awkward to talk about. Like it drives people to extremes.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yep, absolutely. All right, let's actually talk about some news happening in Israel itself. First of all, it's just worth noting, Ben, that, you know, despite all the spin about, you know, Bibi Netanyahu's visit to Washington last week and how Trump was going to get tough on the Prime Minister and get a ceasefire deal done, we still got nothing. Netanyahu is still demanding Hamas do things he knows they won't do and he's just making Trump look weak and denying him the ceasefire agreement he wants. So I think it's worth putting a pin in that because we did it. We made that point about Biden a lot. Second, we also just wanted to recommend that everyone read this really long New York Times piece from Friday called how Netanyahu prolonged the war in Gaza to stay in power. If you're a longtime listener to the show, you will have heard a lot of this information discussed, but it's really worth your time to just see in black and white how cynical Netanyahu is, how he prioritized his own power over the lives of both Palestinians in Gaza, but also Israeli hostages. Now there is a notable kind of threat to his power happening as of today. On Tuesday, one of the Ultra Orthodox parties in Netanyahu's government left the coalition over an issue that has long been a huge sticking point in Israeli politics, which is whether ultra Orthodox yeshiva students should continue to be exempted from military service. The ultra Orthodox have gone from a ton, like a couple hundred people at Israel's founding to 14% of the country. So we're talking about thousands of exemptions at a time when Israel has been at war for two years, and it's creating a lot of resentment. The Supreme Court ruled last year that the military could begin drafting the ultra Orthodox. And Netanyahu has been trying to kind of strike this balance between complying with that ruling and appeasing religious members of his coalition. But kind of patience on all sides is wearing thin here. And, you know, his kind of, like, juggling seems to be coming near to an end, hopefully. So we've got if the. With the United Torah Judaism Party leaving the coalition, Netanyahu is 61 out of 120 seats in his coalition. There's another ultra Orthodox party that holds 11 seats that's also considering abandoning the coalition, meaning Netanyahu would then only have a minority government. The Cadesset will soon be going into recess until October. So he's not like, in danger of immediately being forced out of power, but it puts him on very shaky ground. They won't be able to get anything done. Etc. So Ben Netanyahu is a political survivor, like, beyond anything I ever could have expected or believed. But if anything takes him down, experts all kind of believe it'll be this issue of these ultra Orthodox exemptions. So fingers crossed, I guess.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. Except look. Yeah, anything that would get rid of Netanyahu would be great. And, you know, hopefully he can pay for his crimes, whether those are the crimes he committed in Israel or the war crimes he's presided over in Gaza. I think that the two caveats I'd say to this are like, one, whenever there's this dysfunction, like his instinct is, as that time story showed, to actually perpetuate the war in Gaza and appease the far right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, or bomb Iran.

[Ben Rhodes]

Or bomb Iran. Right. Like. Like we've been saying this on this fucking podcast and people are like, oh, how dare. Like, this is so transparently partially about just him staying in power by appeasing the far right. And so what I worry about is the worse his political fortunes get, like, the, the worse the worse actions are. Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, me too.

[Ben Rhodes]

And then the other thing I think is important, it builds on. I made this comment about AIPAC last week. And not the Democrats not taking money from aipac. Bernie Sanders, like hopefully pick that up. One reason why is even in Netanyahu's gone. I think there's this kind of hope among some Democrats that Israel is going.

[Tommy Vitor]

To go back to normal.

[Ben Rhodes]

Normal. Keep in mind that Netanyahu, with a brief interlude for Naftali Bennett, has been in charge since 2009. So normal, I guess would be all the way back to ehud olmert in 2008 or something who wasn't exactly like a left wing guy. But it's not like Israeli politics has moved so far to the right that like the government that comes after Netanyahu, it's not going to be like Yitzhak Rabin type people running Israel. Right. And I wish it would be. That'd be great, you know, but my concern is that like there needs to be like a profound political change in Israel for there to be a government that could pursue policies that, you know, anybody with, like, who cares about the future of the Palestinian people is in their existence, could support.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. I mean, look, Netanyahu is sort of like a uniquely corrupt and odious and selfish and awful leader and I think will hopefully go down in history in Israel as like one of the worst leaders Israel's ever had. In part because of the way he is driving the Democratic Party away from support for Israel right now through his actions. But I agree with you. It's like it's not like things are going to be great, you know, And.

[Ben Rhodes]

I've talked to multiple people, not just multiple recently who've been in Israel and describing how, quote, euphoric everybody is that they're winning. Iran strikes and Hezbollah and Hamas. How can you be euphoric when you're engaged in genocidal violence? There's something wrong. You shouldn't feel good about these actions.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, I agree with that. Another issue we keep covering. It's getting worse, Ben is. We talked a couple weeks ago about Israeli settler attacks in the West Bank.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Where the violence just skyrocketed since the war in Gaza started. And On Friday, a 20 year old Palestinian American man was beaten to death by Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Seifullah Musalit, his family calls him. Safe for short. He owned an ice cream parlor with his dad in Tampa, where he was born. He had been in the west bank visiting family, hanging out with friends. On Friday he was like with a group of Palestinians that drove to this town called Sinjill where his family owned land. I think it was like, it was a kind of A mild act of resistance, just like going to a town that Palestinians were supposed to have authority over, but they were met by these settlers who beat them with sticks and clubs and basically beat Safe to death. And then an ambulance was sent to help him and the ambulance was refused access to the area for three hours.

[Ben Rhodes]

And this happens routinely in the West Bench?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it's like murder by bureaucracy. I mean murder by clubbing, but then by the bureaucracy.

[Ben Rhodes]

And then they never prosecute the settlers who murdered them.

[Tommy Vitor]

Exactly. And so Safe didn't make it to the hospital live. This other man, a 23 year old Palestinian, was shot in the chest by the Israelis. And as usual the IDF said, well, they, they started the conflict by throwing rocks at the settlers. But as if that justifies murder, some shitty ass people on Twitter were making these baseless claims that both men were in Hamas because I think Hamas put out an infographic saying they had been martyred, which is just like against insane baseless allegations, but ones that traveled far to influential people on the Internet. And so Safe's father gave an interview to Zateo News. Here's what he had to say, or some of it at this moment, so.

[Ben Rhodes]

Far I have not been contacted by anyone from the US government. I have not been contacted by anyone.

[Tommy Vitor]

From the Florida representatives, from the U. S. Senate or nothing.

[Ben Rhodes]

You know, the consulate called me, they told me, you know, they gave me condolences, they told me they would, they would be contacting me in a few days and coming by, but from the usa, you know, any Florida representative, anything like that. I haven't, haven't been contacted. I honestly, deeply not only think, know that if this was an Israeli American that they would be on top of their things, they would be there, they would be contacting them, the representatives, the government. But because he's Palestinian American, I feel that we don't have the same standards.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's a double standard. You know, right before we started recording, Mike Huckabee released a tweet saying he asked Israel to investigate what happened. So hopefully that will, you know, tear some fruit. Although as you mentioned, like these things never get really investigated or prosecuted. According to Zateo, Israeli forces have killed at least six Americans in Gaza, in the occupied West Banks, in Lebanon since October 7, 2023. It's a horrific story. I mean, I wish I again I had any confidence the Israeli government would, would look into it or, or that U.S. lawmakers would put real pressure on Marco Rubio. I mean this guy's from fucking Florida.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, we keep saying, you Know, the US Government under Biden, too, did the same thing. Like, we demand investigations, and then the investigations never happen, and we never say anything. I mean, this. Unfortunately, we focus on it because it's an American. This kind of unaccountable settler violence, including blocking ambulances, is a regular occurrence in the West Bank. Look, the one thing I'd just say about this is, you know, because as Zatao noted, this is not an isolated incident, even with Americans. These are religious extremists. Right. The word settler makes it seem something kind of, like, peaceful about that. A bunch of these are religious extremists, you know, because anybody who, like, beats somebody to death, like, over, you know, their claim, their. Well, anything that they believe. If this happened in any other country in the Middle east, if an American was beaten to death by religious extremists, it would be like, you know, we went to war with ISIS because four Americans were killed.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

You know, four Americans. Which, again, I'm not devaluing that. That was horrible. But, like, what? I mean, just people need to stop and sit and think about this. Like, why is it okay for Americans to be beaten to death by religious extremists in one place and not if it happened like, 50 miles away somewhere else? You know, it's like a global story, you know?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's ridiculous.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's horrible. It's horrible. And it's just the impunity with which these guys act because they're overseen by people like Itmar, Ben GVIR and Smotris, people who support their project.

[Ben Rhodes]

That's why they're in those jobs. The reason Ben GVIR wants to be the National Security Minister, is he gonna oversee the police are the ones who are supposed to investigate these kinds of things, Right?

[Tommy Vitor]

Exactly. Final thing, Ben, before we go to the interview with Matt Duss, what's going on with the Trump administration's Cuba policy?

[Ben Rhodes]

They are now sanctioning because they care so much about human rights and democracy around the world at the same time that they're gutting that bureau, they're now personally sanctioning, you know, the president of Cuba, members of Cuban government. They're just piling new sanctions upon sanctions.

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh, good. That'll work.

[Ben Rhodes]

Right, but like, two people in Miami that support this kind of policy, you have Cuban Americans dying in ICE custody. That's literally something that happened. You've got the Cuban government dug in as much as they have been, despite the fact that the Cuban people can't afford to eat because of these sanctions. What are we doing here, people?

[Tommy Vitor]

It's crazy. Yeah, well, the embargo is gonna work one of these days.

[Ben Rhodes]

Marco Rubio is literally down there like. Like we're literally intervening in politics on behalf of an autocrat in Brazil while saying that, you know, claiming democracy and human rights to just punish the people of Cuba. It's fucking outrageous.

[Tommy Vitor]

Outrageous. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break. When you come back, you'll hear my interview with Matt Duss about what a Democratic Party foreign policy should look like going forward, not just in the Trump era, but forever in the future. So stick around for that. Some really smart stuff from that. Appreciate his time. Ponzi of the World is brought to you by Haya. Most children's vitamins are essentially candy. They're packed with two teaspoons of sugar, unhealthy chemicals, and gummy additives that growing kids shouldn't consume. Haya recognized this, and that's why they created a super powered chewable vitamin. Ha Fills the most common gaps in modern children's diets to provide the full body nourishment our kids need with a yummy taste they love. Formulated with the help of pediatricians and nutritional experts, Haya is pressed with a blend of 12 organic fruits and vegetables, then supercharged with 15 essential vitamins and minerals to help support immune system energy, brain function, mood, concentration, teeth, bones and more. It's non gmo, vegan, dairy free, allergy free, gelatin free, nut free, and everything else you can imagine. Free high is designed for kids two and up and set straight to your door so parents have one less thing to worry about. You know, Charlie Favreau is a huge fan of Haya. He's been taking it forever. I was over at the house the other day and he told me he solved the Continuum Hypothesis. Oh, the Continuum Hypothesis. Yeah, something about the size of integers and real numbers, sort of independent of standard. I honestly don't know what that is. I haven't heard about the Continuum Hypothesis.

[Ben Rhodes]

You found what?

[Tommy Vitor]

I didn't know. I googled unsolvable math problems that Charlie Favreau also had solved. Oh, about infinite sets? Well, there's interesting math around the size of the sets. Like, for example, a set of all the infinite sets. Okay. It contains itself, right? Yeah, good point. It's one of the. One of the options for a set inside the infinite sets. It's like the Liar's paradox. This statement is false. Sure, sure, something like that, yeah. Anyway, try the vitamins. Are you tired of battling with your kids to eat their greens? Haya now has kids daily greens plus Superfoods a chocolate flavored greens powder designed specifically for kids. Packed with 55 plus whole food ingredients to support brain power, development digestion. Just scoop, shake and sip with milk or any non dairy beverage for delicious and nutritious boost your kids will actually enjoy. We've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best selling children's vitamin. Receive 50% off your first order. To claim this deal you must go to hiahealth.com world. This deal is not available on the regular website. Go to h I y-a h E-A-L-T-H.com world and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. Some say Odoo business management software is like fertilizer because of the way it promotes growth. Some say Odoo is like a magic.

[Matt Duss]

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Matt Duss]

For creating a custom software suite. But I say Odoo is all of it. Fertilizer, magic beanstalk building blocks for business.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, Odoo.

[Matt Duss]

Exactly what every business needs.

[Tommy Vitor]

Sign [e-mail] that's o-o o.com I'm very excited to welcome to the show my friend Matt Duss. He is the executive vice president of the center for International Policy and a former foreign policy advisor to Bernie Sanders. Great to see you.

[Matt Duss]

Great to be here, Tommy.

[Tommy Vitor]

Thank you. Now, I'm excited to talk to you because you are not just a foreign policy expert, you are one of the more progressive foreign policy voices. And I feel like for some reason the people who get booked on the Sunday shows are the more hawkish, dare I say, Republican voices and not the more progressives. And I think when you look at history and the mistakes we've made, maybe we should think about talking to the folks on the left a little more. What do you think?

[Matt Duss]

What a weird concept, man. Maybe like, I don't know, talk to the folks who've been more right than wrong. But you know, I'm not a booker, so I don't know what the formula is, man.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's some altogether. Well, we'll work on that. Yeah, we'll work on that. So I want to talk just big picture today, which is like what should the Democratic Party's foreign policy be for the remainder of the Trump administration, but also more durably going forward kind of big picture stuff. And that is a sprawling question. We could go in a lot of directions we could do a 10 minute opening answer, but I want to start with this and see if we can do just like, what's the elevator pitch for the best version of the democratic foreign policy in your view?

[Matt Duss]

Sure. I mean, I would put it like this. I mean, what's foreign policy for? Any country's foreign policy is for promoting the security and the prosperity of that country's people. So at the most basic level, that's what American foreign policy is for. But as a progressive, I include a third word and that's solidarity. You know, I think we are in a deeply interconnected world. That's a cliche. It's a cliche because it's true. I think, you know, America's relative share of power is declining, but America is still enormously influential, still very powerful. We have a network of alliances and partnerships around the world that is really unmatched. And I would like us to like to see us using those relationships and that power to kind of, to really support a genuinely rules based order. This is one of those terms that's thrown around all the time, the rules based order. But you know, the sad reality, and I think we've seen this demonstrated really, really starkly over the past few years when you compare, like the US approach to Ukraine versus Gaza, is that the rules based order and much of the developing world, the global south, whatever term one wants to use, they've been aware of this for a very long time. This double standard, because they've often suffered at the pointy end of it, is that the rules based order means the United States and its allies make the rules. And there's a different set of rules that get applied to American adversaries. And I think Americans do have an interest in a world, you know, of rules and of laws and of norms and not just of might makes right. I think that's not just good for us, that's good for a genuinely peaceful world or one that we want to be moving toward being more peaceful rather than more destabilized and warlike. And I think I want to see leaders of all parties, but particularly the Democratic Party, saying that out loud. America should be in the business of promoting peace and making peace.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it does feel like we're moving very much into a might makes right era, along with a little, you know, corruption on the side. But we'll get into that in a second. So I want to play a clip for you of POLITICO's Dasha Burns talking with Senators Jeanne Shaheen and Chris Coons. Let's listen.

[Ben Rhodes]

I interviewed Congressman Ro Khanna recently who's been advocating for the Democratic Party to be the anti war party. They said, he said that the party is become too hawkish in his opinion. Is this an opportunity for Democrats to move more in that direction as you're hearing from Americans, that they don't want us? I mean, one of the reasons so much of the president's base is frustrated is because they voted for him because they felt that he was the anti war president, that he made promises that we would not be entangled in foreign conflicts. Is this an opportunity for Democrats? Might you be missing that opportunity if you don't sort of look at that messaging as a path for the party? No. And I think Ro Khanna is wrong. Okay. The fact is, foreign policy isn't that easy. You can't just say, I'm against all conflicts because they're all going to be.

[Tommy Vitor]

Against America's interest or against global interest.

[Ben Rhodes]

What do you say to the accusation that Democrats have become the party of war? I think it's shallow and overly simplistic and wrong. That's not what I'm hearing from my constituents.

[Tommy Vitor]

All right, Matt, so when I heard that for the first time, I wanted to throw my phone through the wall. But let's, you know, let's, let's approach it with some, some nuance and try to at least define the terms here and understand what anti war means. Like, I'm not, I'm not opposed to US Support for Ukraine to defend against the Russian invasion. I'm not opposed to all, you know, US Military force being used for counterterrorism missions, although we should probably do it as infrequently as possible. But that does include drone strikes. I think, you know, the big mistake is like sending the US Military to do nation building or regime change operations or to solve political problems. But what was your reaction to those comments? And like, what do you think about the kind of, the complicated version of this, this question about what it means to be anti war?

[Matt Duss]

Yeah, I mean, well, first off, I'll say, like I will not take it as a personal attack, having written the piece that was literally titled Democrats have Become the Party of War for the Guardian. But, you know, hey, listen, if Senator Coons is reading, then, you know, I appreciate that. Love to chat with him about it more. I think I laid out, you know, a pretty detailed case where, why that, you know, even if it's, you can point to counterexamples, a lot of Americans perceive it that way. And I do think before I get to the senator's answers. I do want to note, the question is that, yes, Donald Trump leaned into the anti war lane. He promoted himself as a pro peace candidate, even as, of course, we should never take Donald Trump at his word about anything, but he was at least smart enough and JD Vance and the party was smart enough that there's a real constituency for that message and they, and they profited by it. And the last kind of point I'll make here that I think people should keep in mind is like in every election since the end of the Cold war, since the 1992 election, with the one exception of 2004, the more anti war candidate has won, the less militarist candidate, the less interventionist candidate has won. I'm not going to claim that they won because of that position, but I do think that's a set of data that we have now that people should keep in mind which says at the very least, there is a strong constituency of American voters who are attracted to that message. Now, looking at what Senator Coons and particularly Senator Shaheen, in response to Congressman Khanna's position, Ro Khanna is not in isolation, okay? Ro Khanna is not out there saying we should just oppose military force in all cases. I think that really kind of just disrespects what I think is a fairly detailed and responsible case and a pragmatic case that Ro Khanna's out there making. And let's also know, I mean, when people throw this term isolationism around, it's almost always used as just a slur. There is really no one in American political life who in my view merits that real. Even people who are more anti war do not believe that we should simply withdraw behind our borders. I mean, even anti war people, and I consider myself to be one. I'm not saying that we should withdraw. I want us to be more engaged in global affairs. The question is through what tools, how are we executing that engagement? What are we doing? Are we using foreign aid, medical assistance, humanitarian assistance? Are we really trying to create that system of rules that prevents wars from happening in the first place before we eventually have to consider whether we want to intervene or be involved in them? And the last thing I'll say here is just the idea that you respond to kind of an anti war position by saying, oh, tut tut, small child, the world is so much more complicated than that. I'm sorry, with all respect, that's just BS man. Especially when you look at, you know, who's been right over the past 20 plus years. It's been the anti war side.

[Tommy Vitor]

So I would say have a little.

[Matt Duss]

Bit of self awareness. Yes, foreign policy can be complicated. That does not by itself tend toward a militarist position.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yes, very well said. Let's talk about some of these non military tools we have in our foreign policy toolkit. So Trump is just burning shit down, right? I mean, USAID is gone. They just fired like 15% of the workforce over at the State Department. I think, obviously, I think dismantling USAID was a catastrophic mistake. But I'm also worried about the next Democrat who gets elected president getting pushed to expend a bunch of political capital to build things back exactly the same and not kind of reflect on or recognize the fact that there was a perception of flaws, if not a reality of some flaws and how these programs were administered. How do you think Dems should think about that kind of next iteration of diplomacy and development assistance post Trump?

[Matt Duss]

Yeah, well, I think first off, you know, as I said, you know, we had to think about what foreign policy is for, what is foreign aid for, you know, make the case. And I think what we really need to do, and I think again, successive administrations, Democrat and Republican, have done a poor job of this, which is why Trump was, you know, was so easily able to just dismantle usaid, is that we have not really made the case to enough Americans why this helps all of us. You know, and this is why I, you know, when I included that third word of solidarity in my, you know, what I defined as a progressive approach to foreign policy, it's like, yes, I mean, we should be in solidarity with communities around the world and try not to export insecurity and poverty onto them as we promote our own security and prosperity, but also understand helping to diminish disease and suffering and deprivation around the world keeps us all safer. You know, whether you want to look at, you know, for example, pepfar, which is the George W. Bush administration, very successful, one of the most successful foreign aid programs probably since the Marshall Plan at the end of World War II to fight HIV AIDS in Africa. That's not just altruism, although I have no problem with altruism. You know, diminishing disease and easing suffering leads to less conflict. It leads to fewer situations when the United States might have to intervene or be called to send our young women and men to fight. And I think we can point to similar examples all over the place. But again, before we get to, okay, what form should foreign aid take? Should we recreate USAID or should we continue simply to do this through the state Department. I've heard good arguments for both, but I do think, you know, building and strengthening an actual constituency among American voters who understand why this helps us.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And another thing, you know, another sort of tool in the toolkit that Bernie Sanders, your former boss, talked about a lot was this nexus of, you know, oligarchy, authoritarianism and kleptocracy. And people tend to think of foreign policy as, like, military force or not, trade deals, alliances. Right, but how did you and Senator Sanders think about oligarchy and kleptocracy and that corruption angle? And how did that fold into a foreign policy vision for the United States or the Democratic Party?

[Matt Duss]

Yeah, no, thanks for bringing that up. And I think some of the work that Senator Sanders did, and there was a piece in the Guardian he wrote, and I believe it was September of 20 that really kind of laid this out, and then a speech he gave based that in 2019 at Johns Hopkins. But first, it's understanding that there is a kind of global network of kind of right wing, authoritarian ethno nationalists, whatever term you want to use, whether it's Trump, whether it's Bolsonaro in Brazil, it's Orban in Hungary, there's Netanyahu in Israel. There is this growing kind of trend across democracies, developed democracies, but also developing democracies that is, you know, promoting a very kind of exclusivist conception of citizenship, whether it's ethno nationalism or, you know, here in the United States, it's, it's, it's a version of that, too, which is to say, you know, this is a white Christian nation. And every, you know, if you're not white or Christian, you can be part of the club as long as you accept these certain conditions. But it's also being run with the support of, you know, wealthy actors, whether they're tech bros. With lots of money, Elon Musk being one of them foreign actors with, with access to, whether it's oil and kind of energy wealth, such as Vladimir Putin or, or folks in the Gulf. And they are using corruption strategically to, to influence politics in, in various ways. I mean, that's one way. I mean, there's the more basic level of corruption. It's just, you know, these people who take control of government and use that for their own personal benefit. And of course, we're seeing that in our country now, too, as the Trump family is now magically getting all these investments. They're getting $2 billion in investment in their crypto venture from the Emiratis The Qataris kept it much simpler. They just gave Trump a plane. But we see this across different governments in different regions. And I would just mention here the work of Sarah Chase, who has written a couple of really excellent books of the first called Thieves of State about Afghanistan, and then the second one called On Corruption in America, where she really does a deep dive in how, you know, corruption works and how it shares similarities across different societies. And we are seeing that play out, like, right now in America. And so to get to answer your question really quickly, like, in order to really we talk about America's role in the world in this new era, we need to understand that those are the forces arrayed against democracy, arrayed against equality, and that have no interest in a world of rules. They want a world in which they make the rules for themselves and their friends.

[Tommy Vitor]

One sort of question I think, that becomes so central to the Democratic Party's challenge on foreign policy is the war in Gaza. I mean, Democrats, especially young Democrats, are furious about the war, and they don't understand the kind of unqualified military and diplomatic support for the Israeli government under Bibi Netanyahu. A lot of people were furious at the Biden administration's policy. Right. This is not a Trump criticism. It's broader. How central? Sometimes I wonder, is this, like, the most important issue for Democrats to fix? And guess right right now, is this something that maybe we all focus on and talk about too much? Because there's muscle memory of, like, the Middle east peace process being kind of like the. The brass ring that every politician was going for. Like, how do you think about how. And I'm not trying to, like, belittle or diminish the evil that's happening in Gaza right now. I'm just trying to, like, be honest with myself because at the same time, Democrats are so focused on U. S. Israel relations, we all kind of tacitly agree that the biggest challenge over the next century is going to be China, but we're not talking about that all the time. So how do you think about the centrality of. Right. Sizing the US Israel relationship is to the Democratic Party going forward?

[Matt Duss]

Yeah, I mean, there's a couple things here, and you're right, there's a lot of things that people could focus on. There's a lot of crises around the world. There's other horrific wars going on around the world, but I think Israel and Palestine is an issue, and I think this is true for a lot of progressives like myself, but not only, and especially for a lot of young people it is an area where the kind of double standard and the double speak and the hypocrisy of the establishment is revealed so starkly. And it's not just since October 7th, it's going back many decades where, you know, when I talked about, you know, the, the quote, unquote, rules based order, you know, this is a perfect example of what I was saying. It's united. And you couldn't ask for a better demonstration of this double standard than, you know, comparing our support for Ukraine and then, you know, a couple years later, Gaza, you know, the very same things that we rightly condemned Russia for doing in Ukraine, we are either pretending not to see or simply denying or protecting, you know, giving political and military support to Israel as it continues to do even today in Gaza. So, you know, I think it, you know, it's an important issue in and of itself. It's seen as an area where the global north acts upon the global South. Again, I think that maybe flattens the history of this conflict and of this region a bit. But I do think that's how a lot of people in the United States see it and certainly around the world see it in that way. But also, you know, getting back to what I said first, it's just, it's one of those things where you hear, you know, you'll hear like a US Official or a US Politician give this whole great rap about, you know, what they want to do. But then when they talk about Israel and Palestine, it's like a switch, flip, switch, and they are just regurgitating these same BS talking points that are just completely detached from reality. And I think I saw you and Ben were talking about this on the last episode or a very recent one. It has become a litmus test for a good reason. It does turn out to be a pretty good indicator that you're not actually full of crap on all the other stuff. You can run down, again, a whole policy agenda of great, great stuff, you know, you know, affordable housing, good jobs, you know, free transportation, college, all this stuff. But if your answer on Israel, Palestine is just, Israel has a right to defend itself, that's sending a single. That you're probably going to fold on all that other stuff, too.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I think that's really well said. Final question for you. I mean, I don't want the Democratic Party to define its foreign policy based on what Trump thinks or does, but I think understanding his views and sort of what is popular and what's not is important and just sort of helps us, you know, kind of like Road test things. But we're talking Monday midday, Los Angeles time. Earlier this morning, Trump seemed to just completely reverse his position on support for Ukraine and will now be sending them weapons via NATO. But I think the Europeans will kind of pick up the bill. This comes on the heels of, you know, the so called anti war president bombing Iran. It comes, you know, there's the tariffs. Trump came out in support for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza after this sort of really hopeful beginning where he and Steve Wyckoff actually got the ceasefire deal over the finish line. And I guess just like at this point, I don't know what the fuck his foreign policy is anymore.

[Ben Rhodes]

You know what I mean?

[Tommy Vitor]

It's like there's more like traditional hawkish Republican DNA than I thought. Then there's just the brazen corruption, right, of like Don Jr. And Eric Trump going to like Hanoi and greasing some golf resort deal and then all of a sudden they figure out the tariff problem with Vietnam, right? It's like, how do you, what do you make of it so far? How do you summarize it? The Trump.

[Matt Duss]

Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, it's all over the place, as is often said. I mean, he kind of agrees to the last person who spoke to him or convinced him, like, this is how you make Trump seem great. The example of the Israeli strikes on Iran, apparently he watched Fox News all night and it seemed pretty awesome. And Fox News talking heads were praising it and he decided he wanted a piece of that action. But my quick response would be like, listen, when he does good things, that's good. And I think we shouldn't be afraid to say so. I mean, I wrote a piece a few weeks ago right before he reversed course on Iran, saying, listen, if Trump gets a good deal on Iran, that's great. If we're able to have a diplomatic agreement with Iran, he could literally write his name on top of the JCPOA and I would just be like, great job, Trump. You know, let's hear that. That was a good deal. If you want to take ownership and say that's, that's the grand, beautiful, super golden Trump deal, I'm fine to go with that because it's a good deal. Listen, now that he's reversing course on Ukraine and, and going to continue help them defend themselves, I think that's good. You know, the thing is, no one should bank on this, you know, lasting never. He could change his mind again. Someone could annoy him. NATO's flattery could stop pleasing him as much as it does or dozens of other things could happen. But I think what we have to do is not decide on our foreign policy based on what Trump does. I think the Democratic Party really needs to have a conversation about what are we trying to do in the world, what are we offering to the American people in terms of foreign policy. And as I said, I think we should understand that Americans are tired of war. It's not to say they want to withdraw from the world. They absolutely do not. But there is a real strong constituency that wants to see the United States making peace, avoiding war, using it only as a last resort. I think we do have that evidence. And, you know, it shouldn't be seen as unserious to say. So I think not only is it the right policy, it's a policy that is a political winner.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. How great would it be if one day a pundit got on TV and said, tonight was the night Donald Trump became president because he signed some diplomatic. Not because we bombed a fucking Runway in Syria that they rebuilt the next day. Right.

[Matt Duss]

Let's dream that dream together.

[Tommy Vitor]

I will dream that dream with you. Well, Matt, thank you so much for doing the show. Where can people follow your work? Would you like them to point to?

[Matt Duss]

Well, center for International Policy. You can find us online, you can find me on, on X, Twitter, whatever, at Matt Duss, where I probably post way too much. And I also am a regular contributor to Foreign Policy magazine and a co host of the Undimlogmatic podcast.

[Tommy Vitor]

Need to love it.

[Matt Duss]

Yeah. Thank you, Tom.

[Tommy Vitor]

I love it. Well, I think you're one of the. One of the sharpest thinkers out there. I really appreciate your unabashed fighting for diplomatic solutions to these problems and a more progressive worldview and involving all these sort of economic factors like kleptocracy and oligarchy in this vision, because I agree with you fundamentally, the thing I agree with you most on is that we can't just be anti Trump. We have to present a vision for the world that is rooted in values that people trust, that people believe we'll execute on, or else we're never gonna win again. So.

[Matt Duss]

All right. Thank you.

[Tommy Vitor]

Off my soapbox. Thanks, buddy. Great to see you. Bye.

[Ben Rhodes]

Bye.

[Tommy Vitor]

Thanks again to Matt Dust for doing the show. Ben, great to see you in person. I hope the jet lag isn't too bad.

[Ben Rhodes]

No, I'm feeling good. I've been energized being in studio.

[Tommy Vitor]

You're more energized than I am. I was up at like 4am for no reason.

[Ben Rhodes]

Probably like reading the Epstein news. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

There's a lot of content to consume on this one.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I've got a bad dream about alligator Alcatraz. I'm not even kidding.

[Ben Rhodes]

Oh, yeah. I've had some Trump 2.0 anxiety dreams. They're not good.

[Tommy Vitor]

Favreau mentioned to me yesterday that people are doing live shots from it like, like with like, like giant jackets on and things over their head because the mosquitoes are so thick they can't even breathe. And I think that kind of like, image, like I felt it inside my body.

[Ben Rhodes]

I'm sorry that people made this so long from Florida. I get uncomfortable in Florida bugs and it's the worst. And alligators. I don't.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, thanks. I'm good. Opting out.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I prefer California.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, me too. That's it for us. Talk to you guys next week.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, see ya.

[Tommy Vitor]

POD Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our senior producer is Ilona Minkowski. Our associate producer is Michael Goldsmith. Saul Rubin is helping out this summer. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our audio engineer. Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Thanks to our digital team, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, William Jones, David Toles and Ryan Young. Matt de Groot and is our head of production. Adrian Hill is our senior vice president of news and politics. If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content and more, consider joining our Friends in the Pod subscription [e-mail] Friends don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter for more original content, host takeovers and other community events. Plus find Pod Save the World on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content and much more. If you're as opinionated as we are, please consider dropping us a review. Our production staff is proudly unionized by the Writers Guild of America East. Want to pull off the season's freshest trends? You just need the right shoes. That's where designer shoe warehouse comes in.

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