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We all want two things that can seem at odds with each other: to be our own person and to belong. We want to stand apart from the crowd, but we also want to be connected to it. When that balance gets out of whack, we either lose ourselves in tribalism or drift into isolation. My guest today says many of the problems in modern life stem from our inability to hold these two impulses in tension. His name is Luke Burgis, and he’s the author of The One and the 99: Forging Identity in the Age of Social Contagion. Today on the show, Luke explains how becoming a true individual can give you the strength to be a part of a community. We discuss the difference between a solid self and a pseudo self — and what role families and rites of passage can play in moving us toward one or the other — why modern politics feels like a dysfunctional family, the dangers of performative religion, and much more. Resources Related to the Podcast Luke’s previous appearances on the AoM podcast: Episode #714: Why Do We Want What We Want? Episode #910: Thick Desires, Political Atheism, and Living an Anti-Mimetic Life The True Believer by Eric Hoffer Education of a Wandering Man by Louis L’Amour AoM Podcast #1,025: The Life and Legacy of Louis L’Amour AoM article with L’Amour’s weekly to-do lists AoM article and podcast about C.S. Lewis’ The Abolition of Man and the idea of objective value The Courage to Be by Paul Tillich The Quest for Community by Robert Nisbet AoM Podcast #847: Overdoing Democracy AoM Podcast #1,010: How to Resist Group Anxiety and Become a Differentiated Self AoM Article: Becoming a Well-Differentiated Leader Dying Breed article: A New Kind of Monasticism — The Power of Community to Shape the Soul The Rule of St. Benedict Connect With Luke Burgis Luke’s website Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page. Download this episode. Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice. Transcript Coming Soon This article was originally published on The Art of Manliness.

Life rarely unfolds according to plan. A relationship implodes. A move or job change doesn’t work out. Or you simply fail in a goal you’ve set for yourself. My guest has spent almost two decades researching and field-testing how to get back on track when smaller slip-ups and larger upheavals knock you off course. His name is Steve Kamb, and he’s the founder of Nerd Fitness and the author of How to Try Again: An Approachable Guide to Navigating Chaos and Making Change THAT STICKS. Today on the show, Steve shares practical principles for dealing with life’s frustrating and demoralizing setbacks. We discuss why sometimes the best move is to pause rather than push harder, how to accept reality without resigning yourself to it, why treating change as an experiment can help you beat paralysis and take action, why you should treat consistency with your goals the way you do showering, and more. Resources Related to the Podcast Steve’s previous appearances on the AoM podcast: Episode #42: Level Up Your Life With Nerd Fitness & Steve Kamb Episode #170: Level Up Your Life Steve’s AoM guest posts: Don’t Be That Guy: The Taxonomy of Lousy Male Friends How Superheroes, Movies, and Video Games Taught Me to Conquer Fear Nerd Fitness Museum of Failure Sunday Firesides: Good Times Are Not Around the Corner (And That’s Great News!) Sunday Firesides: Treat Life Like an Experiment “Lightning Fields” by the Killers Connect With Steve Kamb Steve’s website Steve on IG Steve on LinkedIn Steve on Substack Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page. Download this episode. Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice. Transcript Coming Soon This article was originally published on The Art of Manliness.

Walking is one of the most powerful health tools we have. It improves cardiovascular fitness, boosts mood, sharpens cognition, and can even be a predictor of how well you’ll age. But all those benefits depend on something we rarely think about until it starts hurting: our feet. For many of us, walking is so automatic that we never consider the mechanics that make it possible. Yet the way we move, the shoes we wear, and the strength of the muscles in our feet can have a profound impact on how comfortably and efficiently we walk. When something goes wrong at our physical foundation, the effects can ripple upward, leading to pain not just in the feet, but in the knees, hips, and back. My guest today is Dr. Milica McDowell, a physical therapist and the co-author of the new book Walk. Today on the show, Milica explains why walking speed may be a hidden vital sign, what gives you your signature walking style, and how to spot and address injury-inducing inefficiencies in your gait. We then talk about feet: whether you should worry about pronation, how to rehab plantar fasciitis — and no, it’s not stretching — the best kind of shoes to wear, and much more. Resources Related to the Podcast AoM Article: Solvitur Ambulando — It Is Solved By Walking AoM podcast episode with Manoush Zomorodi AoM Article: I Started Taking a Walk Every Morning. Here’s What Happened to My Health AoM Article: 20 Rules for Walking AoM podcast episode with Matt Fitzgerald Altra shoes Vivobarefoot Lems shoes (this is the pair Brett wears) Tyr weightlifting shoe Injinji toe socks Toe spacer Study on calf raise standards Connect With Milica McDowell Milica’s website Milica on IG Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page. Download this episode. Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice. Transcript Coming Soon This article was originally published on The Art of Manliness.

Note: This is a rebroadcast. A lot of young men today struggle in finding their footing in adulthood. They feel lost, directionless, and unsure of who they are and how to confidently and competently navigate the world. Part of the reason for this is that most young men today lack something which was once a part of nearly every culture in the world, but has now almost entirely disappeared: a rite of passage. My guest today didn’t want his son to flounder on the way to maturity, nor to miss out on having an initiation into manhood, so he set out to create a 6-year journey for him that would help him move from boy to man. His name is Jon Tyson, and he’s the author of The Intentional Father: A Practical Guide to Raise Sons of Courage and Character. Today on the show, Jon unpacks the components of the years-long journey into manhood he created for his son, beginning with how he brainstormed those components by doing “The Day Your Son Leaves Home” exercise. We then discuss how old Jon’s son was when he started his rite of passage and why it began with him having a “severing dinner” with his mom. We get into what his rite of passage consisted of, from the kickoff ceremony to the challenges, experiences, trips, and daily rituals Jon used to impart values and teach his son the “5 Shifts of Manhood.” Jon shares how moving his son’s focus from being a good man, to being good at being a man, helped him get remotivated to continue the process, why his rite of passage included a gap year after high school, and how Jon celebrated the end of his son’s journey into becoming a man. We also discuss whether Jon did something similar with his daughter. We end our conversation with some key principles any dad can use to start intentionally helping their kids become well-rounded individuals who can confidently step out on their own and into the world. Resources Related to the Podcast AoM Article: The Importance of Fathers AoM Article: The Importance of Male Rites of Passage AoM Article: Male Rites of Passage From Around the World AoM Article & Podcast: Man’s Need for Ritual AoM Series on the origins, elements, and future of manhood AoM Article: The 7 Habits — Begin With the End in Mind AoM Article: The 3 Families Every Young Man Needs to Grow Up Well James Hollis AoM Article: Carry the Fire Art of Manliness’ Carry the Fire Zippo Lighter AoM Article: What Is Manliness? AoM Podcast #527 With Richard Rohr The Power of Moments: Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact by Chip and Dan Heath The Way of Men by Jack Donovan AoM Podcast #49 With Jack Donovan AoM Series on the Four Archetypes of the Mature Masculine AoM Article: 100 Skills Every Man Should Know AoM Article: 80+ Quotes on Men & Manhood Connect With Jon Tyson Primal Path Jon on Twitter Jon on IG Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page. Download this episode. Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice. Podcast Sponsors Click here to see a full list of our podcast sponsors. Read the Transcript Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness podcast. A lot of young men today struggle in finding their footing in adulthood. If you’re lost, directionless and unsure of who they are and how to confidently and competently navigate the world. Part of the reason for this is that most young men today lack something which was once part of nearly every culture in the world, but has now almost entirely disappeared: A rite of passage. My guest today didn’t want his son to flounder on the way to maturity nor miss out on having an initiation into manhood, so he set out to create a six-year journey for him that would help him move from boy to man. His name is Jon Tyson, and he’s the author of The Intentional Father: A Practical Guide to Raise Sons of Courage and Character. Today on the show, Jon impacts the components of the years-long journey into manhood he created for his son, beginning with how he brainstormed these components by doing the day-your-son-leaves-home exercise. We then discuss how old Jon’s son was when he started his rite of passage and why it began with him having a severing dinner with his mom. We get into what his rite of passage consisted of, from the kick-off ceremony to the challenges, experiences, trips and daily rituals Jon used to impart values, teach his son the five shifts of manhood. Jon shares how moving his son’s focus from being a good man to being good at being a man helped him get re-motivated to continue the process, why his rite of passage included a gap year after high school and how Jon celebrated the end of his son’s journey into becoming a man. We also discuss whether Jon did something similar with his daughter. We end our conversation with some key principles any dad can use to start intentionally helping their kids become well-rounded individuals who can confidently step out on their own and into the world. After the show’s over, check out our show notes at aom.is/passage. And away we go. Alright, Jon Tyson, welcome to the show. Jon Tyson: Good day, mate. How are you? Thanks for having me on. Brett McKay: So yo...

With the Old Breed is widely considered one of the greatest war memoirs ever written. Penned by Eugene Sledge, a Marine who fought with the 1st Division — the old breed — in the Pacific campaigns of Peleliu and Okinawa, the book is unflinching, deeply human, and so vividly written that you can practically feel the heat, mud, exhaustion, and terror coming off the page. But Sledge wasn’t a professional writer. He was a biology professor who started jotting notes on scraps of paper tucked inside the New Testament he carried in his breast pocket. He wrote the book decades later, partly to process his own trauma, partly to leave a record for his sons. One of those sons is my guest today. Henry Sledge has spent years carrying his father’s legacy forward, and he’s written his own book — The Old Breed: The Complete Story Revealed — that pairs his father’s combat experience with previously unpublished material and his own perspective as Eugene’s son. Today on the show, Henry and I talk about why his dad wrote With the Old Breed, what made fighting in the Pacific uniquely hellish, and how Eugene managed to come home and live a full, honorable life despite carrying the war with him for the rest of his days. Resources Related to the Podcast China Marine: An Infantryman’s Life After World War II by E.B. Sledge HBO series The Pacific Ken Burns’ The War AoM Article: Eugene B. Sledge Puts Your Problems Into Perspective AoM Article: Are You Missing the Forbidden City? Connect With Henry Sledge Henry on IG Henry on FB Thanks to this Episode’s Sponsor! Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code MANLINESS at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/MANLINESS Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page Download this episode Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice Transcript Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the AoM podcast. With the Old Breed is widely considered one of the greatest war memoirs ever written. Penned by Eugene Sludge, a Marine who fought with the first division, the old breed, in the Pacific campaigns of Peleliu in Okinawa. The book is unflinching, deeply human, and so vividly written that you can practically feel the heat, mud, exhaustion, and terror coming off the page. But Sledge wasn’t a professional writer. He was a biology professor who started jotting notes on scraps of paper tucked inside the New Testament he carried in his breast pocket. He wrote the book decades later, partly to process his own trauma, partly to leave a record for his sons. One of those sons is my guest today. Henry Sledge has spent years carrying his father’s legacy forward, and he’s written his own book, The Old Breed, The Complete Story Revealed that pairs his father’s combat experience with previously unpublished material and his own perspective as Eugene’s son. Today on the show, Henry and I talked about why his dad wrote With the Old Breed, what made fighting the Pacific uniquely hellish and how Eugene managed to come home and live a full honorable life despite carrying the war with him for the rest of his days. After the show’s over, check out our show notes at aom.is/OldBreed. All right, Henry Sledge, welcome to the show. Henry Sledge: Thank you. Great to be here, Brett. I appreciate that. Brett McKay: So your father was Eugene “Sledgehammer” Sledge, who was a marine infantryman who fought in the Pacific campaign of World War II. He’s also the author of what many consider one of the greatest war memoirs ever written, and it’s called With the Old Breed....

Back in 2019, David Epstein joined me to talk about his book Range and why generalists often thrive in a specialized world. Now he’s back with a new book that explores a seemingly opposite idea: the power of constraints. In Inside the Box, David argues that limits — deadlines, boundaries, and even setbacks — are often the very things that spark creativity, sharpen focus, and help us actually get meaningful work done. Today on the show, David shares how, in a world of endless freedom and options, constraints might actually be the thing you need most. He shares the surprising true story behind the creation of the periodic table, explains how a broken arm changed the course of his own life, and explores why giving people too much leeway can actually kill innovation. We discuss what Pixar did right that doomed companies like General Magic got wrong, why brainstorming sessions are usually ineffective, how to identify the bottlenecks holding back your work and life, and why learning to settle for “good enough” may be the key to getting more great things done. Resources Related to the Podcast David’s previous appearance on the AoM podcast: Episode #512 — Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World Pixar’s Tin Toy AoM Article: Curing Your Restlessness — Limiting Your Choices The Goal by Eliyahu M. Goldratt David’s This American Life Episode: “Something Only I Can See” AoM Article: Via Negativa — Adding to Your Life By Subtracting Connect With David Epstein David’s website Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page Download this episode Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice Transcript Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the AoM podcast. Back in 2019, David Epstein joined me to talk about his book Range and why generalists often thrive in a specialized world. Now he’s back with a new book that explores a seemingly opposite idea, the power of constraints. In Inside the Box, David argues that limits, deadlines, boundaries, and even setbacks are often the very things that spark creativity, sharpen focus, and help us actually get meaningful work done. Today in the show, David shares how in a world of endless freedom and options, constraints might actually be the thing you need most. He shares the surprising true story behind the creation of the periodic table, explains how a broken arm changed the course of his own life and explores why giving people too much leeway can actually kill innovation. We discussed what Pixar did right, that doom companies like General Magic got wrong, why brainstorming sessions are usually ineffective. How to identify the bottlenecks, holding back your work in life and why learning to settle for good enough may be the key to getting more great things done. After the show’s over. Check at our show notes at aom.is/constraints. All right, David Epstein, welcome back to the show. David Epstein: Thank you so much for having me back. Brett McKay: So we had you on the show back in 2019 to talk about your book Range, which is all about being a generalist, the power of being a generalist and not focusing only on one thing. You got a new book out, it’s called Inside the Box, and this book is about the power of constraints to accomplishing things, getting things done. How are these two ideas connected, this idea of being a generalist and also embracing constraints? How are they related? David Epstein: Yeah, as I know on the face of it, it can seem contradictory from one book to the next, but it’s kind of responsive to a question I was getting from a lot of readers after Range, which was, all right, I’ve got these diverse experiences, this broad toolbox now what I am having trouble deciding where to focus, and I put myself in that same boat. And so there’s a hefty dose of me-search in this book. So it’s really about how you channel all those ideas, all those experiences into achievement and actually get something done. And again, hefty dose of me-search. I have been terrible in the past at putting useful boundaries around my own work. So that’s one reason why it’s been so long. It’s like six to seven years between all my books, but what I learned in this book actually gave me a totally new process. And so now I think if I write more books, I could probably do them in about half the time I did in the past. Brett McKay: Well let’s dig into the ideas of this book. I thought it was really interesting. What I love about your writing in general, what you do is you find these great case studies from history that cuts across domains, sports, business, arts, technology to show these principles that you’re highlighting in the book. You start off the book with two stories that show how constraints can help us do big things. The ...

You hear a lot today about how our ample screentime is affecting our mental health. But how is it affecting our bodies, and how is that impact on our bodies affecting, well, our mental health? My guest today will unpack the ways that digital technology is sapping our vitality, and offer a simple protocol to get it back. Her name is Manoush Zomorodi, and she’s the host of the TED Radio Hour and the author of Body Electric. In our conversation, Manoush explains why a day spent sitting in front of screens can leave you exhausted, even though you haven’t really done anything, and how small bouts of movement throughout the day can counteract that drain and keep you feeling energized and focused. She shares how much activity you need to offset periods of being sedentary, and how to realistically incorporate these movement breaks into your routine. We also get into the specific effects digital technology is having on our eyes and ears — and what you can do to prevent the damage. Resources Related to the Podcast Manoush’s previous appearance on the AoM podcast: Episode #342 — Why Boredom is Good for You “I Sing the Body Electric” by Walt Whitman Keith Diaz’s studies AoM Article: The Importance of Building Your Daily Sleep Pressure Connect With Manoush Zomorodi Manoush’s website Manoush on IG Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page Download this episode Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice Transcript Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the AoM podcast. You hear a lot today about how ample screen time is affecting our mental health, but how is it affecting our bodies and how’s that impact on our bodies affecting our mental health? My guest today will unpack the ways that our digital technology is sapping our vitality and offers simple protocol to get it back. Her name is Manoush Zomorodi and she’s the host of the TED Radio Hour and the author of Body Electric. Manoush explains why a day spent sitting in front of screens can leave you exhausted even though you haven’t really done anything, and how small bouts of movement throughout the day can counteract that drain, keep you feeling energized and focused. She shares how much activity you need to offset periods of being sedentary and how to realistically incorporate these movement breaks into your routine. We also get into the specific effects digital technologies having on our eyes and ears what you can do to prevent the damage. After the show is over, check at our show notes at aom.is/bodyelectric. All right, Manoush, welcome back to the show. Manoush Zomorodi: It is so great to be back. It’s been a while, Brett. Brett McKay: It has — 2017 was the last time we talked. It’s been nine years and it was about your book about boredom, Bored and Brilliant, about how boredom can be good for us. You got a new book out called Body Electric: The Hidden Health Cost of the Digital Age and New Science to Reclaim Your Wellbeing. And yeah, you’re exploring the health cost of always being on our screen sitting down looking at iPads. What led you to explore this beat for the past few years? Manoush Zomorodi: Yeah, so I’ve been a journalist for 30 years, but my sort of specialty about 15 years ago became tech and business and everyone was talking about upgrading and valuations and all those things, but I was looking around and seeing that my technology, this sounds so quaint now, but my new iPhone was changing the way I did everything. It was changing the way I parented. I could be at the playground and on a call at the same time. Is that good? We don’t have to debate that right now, but for me, it was becoming really a anthropological experiment that was happening on us. And one of the things I noticed was that I started to think differently. So in terms of the first book, I would notice that I was having trouble sort of being more creative than I used to be. And I sort of looked around and thought, what is different now? And the difference was that whenever I had a crack in my day, a spare moment, waiting in line for coffee, waiting for the subway, I could be productive. I could look at my phone, I could check the headlines, the weather, ping my husband, you name it. And it made me wonder what were the effects of never being bored? And as a Gen Xer, I was told, oh, only boring people get bored. But what if being bored was actually a good thing, this thing that we thought was terrible and to be avoided at all costs. So that led me down this road to understanding the neuroscience of boredom or what really cognitive neuroscientists call mind wandering. So boredom as a gateway to mind wandering, which activates a particular network in the brain that is responsible for our most original thinking, problem solving and something called autobiographical planning. This is telling ourselves the story of our life, creating a narrative, and that helps us then set goals and work towards those goals. So to me, mind-blown. Okay, so I need to get more boredom in my life. That w...

While we often think of life as linear, my guest’s own life, along with a decade of research, has taught him that it’s anything but. In his latest book, What to Make of a Life, Jim Collins unpacks the cyclical pattern life actually unfolds in, and how to navigate it. He explains how we all go through periods of “fog” — times of disorientation and uncertainty — at least three times: in youth, after a life-changing “cliff” event, and as we move through midlife into older age. We find our way out of these fogs by what Jim calls coming into “frame” — aligning what you’re built to do with what you actually do in a way that feels enlivening and meaningful. And Jim unpacks the three elements that help you find, and re-find, this frame over the course of your life. Along the way, Jim shares case studies of these principles at work, and we explore the role of luck, the inevitability of drudgery (even in work you love), and how to keep your inner fire lit over the long haul. Resources Related to the Podcast Good to Great by Jim Collins All Rise: The Remarkable Journey of Alan Page by Bill McGrane Self-Renewal: The Individual and the Innovative Society by John W. Gardner Sunday Firesides: You Never Know How Many Chapters Are Still to Come Sunday Firesides: Do the Right Thing, for Right Now AoM Article: The 5 Best AoM Podcast Episodes on Finding Meaning and Purpose AoM series on finding your life’s vocation Connect With Jim Collins Jim’s website Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page Download this episode Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice Transcript Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the AoM podcast. While we often think of life as linear, my guest’s own life, along with a decade of research, has taught him that it’s anything but. In his latest book, What to Make of a Life, Jim Collins unpacks how the cyclical pattern of life actually unfolds and how to navigate it. He explains how we all go through periods of fog, times of disorientation and uncertainty, at least three times in youth after a life-changing cliff event. And as we move through midlife into older age, we find our way out of these fogs by what Jim calls coming into frame, aligning what you’re built to do with what you actually do in a way that feels enlivening and meaningful. And Jim unpacks the three elements that help you find and refine this frame over the course of your life along the way. Jim shares case studies of these principles at work and we explore the role of luck, the inevitability of drudgery even in work you love, and how to keep your inner fire lit over the long haul. After the show is over, check out our show notes at aom.is/Collins. All right, Jim Collins, welcome to the show. Jim Collins: I am really happy to be here with you, Brett. Brett McKay: So you’ve made a career for yourself researching about what makes good companies great. I’m sure a lot of our listeners have read your book Good to Great, and other ones as well. In your latest book, What to Make of a Life, you apply that same intellectual rigor you’ve used to analyze companies to figure out what makes an individual’s life feel meaningful. What kickstarted this project? Jim Collins: Well, so first, even though it looks like a departure, it is a wonderful extension from my prior work — one thing that is a thread that goes all the way back even to my earlier work is the focus and real interest in what people do and how people navigate. When I look back at what I have as themes in my what makes great companies tick work such as in Good to Great, I’ve always been fascinated with people and with leaders as people, entrepreneurs, as people, and by the sheer human drama of starting and building some of the most audacious and amazing companies in the world. And that interest in people has always been there. Companies don’t build themselves, people build companies. So my interest in people has been a pretty consistent theme in looking through that lens. But this project, of course, as you know, really takes a look at the lens of an entire life rather than say the development of a company. And the seeds of this actually predate Good to Great by a long time. Three basic seeds. The first when I was young and I realized that my father would never be a father, as you know, the opening line of the book is my first big cliff in life came quite yo...

Building substantial personal wealth can feel difficult and out of reach. But my guest says that even those with modest means can, with a few simple decisions and strategies, become millionaires, and even multi-millionaires. David Bach is the author of the bestselling, newly updated personal finance classic, The Automatic Millionaire. Today on the show, we talk about the money management framework that will put you on the path to a free, secure, rich retirement. David explains his controversial “Latte Factor” principle, the astonishing power of compounding interest, how setting your finances on autopilot may be the most important financial move you can make, why he still believes in buying a home as an incomparable way to build wealth, the best way to pay down your debt, and more. Resources Related to the Podcast investor.gov compound interest calculator AoM Article: What Every Young Man Should Know About the Power of Compound Interest AoM Article: Know-Nothing Investing — Index Funds For Beginners AoM Article: Build Your Wealth — Graduate from a Paycheck Mentality to a Net Worth Mentality AoM Article: A Young Man’s Guide to Understanding Retirement Accounts — IRAs Connect With David Bach David’s website David on IG David on FB David on X David on YouTube David on LinkedIn Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page Download this episode Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice Transcript Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the AoM podcast. Building substantial personal wealth can feel difficult and out of reach, but my guest says that even those with modest means can with a few simple decisions and strategies become millionaires and even multimillionaires. David Bach is the author of the bestselling newly updated personal finance classic, The Automatic Millionaire. In the show we talk about the money management framework that’ll put you on the path to a free, secure, rich retirement. David explains his controversial latte factor principle, the astonishing power of compounding interest, how setting your finances on autopilot may be the most important financial move you can make, why he still believes in buying a home as an incomparable way to build wealth, the best way to pay down your debt, and more. After the show is over, check out our show notes at aom.is/millionaire. All right, David Bach, welcome to the show. David Bach: Thank you, Brett, it’s great to be with you. I’m really excited to do this show with you. Brett McKay: Well, it’s been two decades since the original release of your book, and I’m sure a lot of our listeners have read this or heard about it, The Automatic Millionaire. And in this book you lay out a personal finance philosophy that can help people save for retirement and have financial security automatically. But you adopted this or you figured this out when you were a young financial advisor and you had this experience early on in your career with a married couple that opened up your eyes to the fact that wealth isn’t about how much you earn, but how you manage what you earn. So what were these people doing differently from the other people you were advising at the time? David Bach: Well, so lemme tell you how I met this couple and the couple, I refer to them in the book as Jim and Sue McIntyre. I used to teach back in the day, this is like in the nineties, I taught a retirement planning course and people would come to my class. It was actually out o...

When people visit a therapist’s office for help with their depression, they often don’t find the relief they’re seeking. That’s because much of the counsel that is traditionally given doesn’t offer the context people need to make sense of and preserve their mental well-being. Here to share these missing pieces of perspective and strategy is Dr. Scott Eilers, a clinical psychologist and the author of The Light Between the Leaves: 6 Truths Your Therapist Won’t Tell You About Healing Depression and Trauma. Today on the show, Scott shares why the world of psychology doesn’t always offer the most useful explanations for why people can sometimes feel alienated from their own lives. We then talk about insights Scott has gleaned from science, nature, and lived experience as to the mindset shifts and habits that can help you stay sharp, steady, and engaged in life — whether you’re struggling with chronic depression, or just adrift in a low-grade funk. Resources Related to the Podcast AoM series on depression AoM Podcast #741: The Exercise Prescription for Depression and Anxiety AoM article and podcast on Rick Hanson’s method of “hardwiring happiness” Connect With Scott Eilers Scott’s website Scott’s YouTube channel Scott on IG Scott on FB Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!) Listen to the episode on a separate page Download this episode Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice Transcript Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the AoM podcast. When people visit a therapist’s office for help with their depression, they often don’t find the relief they’re seeking. That’s because much of the counsel that is traditionally given doesn’t offer the context people need to make sense of and preserve their mental wellbeing. Here to share these missing pieces of perspective and strategies is Dr. Scott Eilers, the clinical psychologist and the author of the book The Light Between the Leaves: Six Truths Your Therapist Won’t Tell You About Healing Depression and Trauma. Today on the show, Scott shares why the world of psychology doesn’t always offer the most useful explanations for why people can sometimes feel alienated from their own lives. We then talk about insights Scott has gleaned from science, nature, and lived experience as to the mindset shifts and habits that can help you stay sharp, steady, and engaged in life. Whether you’re struggling with chronic depression or just adrift in a low grade funk. After the show’s over, check at our show notes at aom.is/leaves. All right, Scott Eilers, welcome to the show. Dr. Scott Eilers: Thanks so much for having me, Brett. I am very excited to be here. I’ve been getting value out of listening to your podcast for a long time, and I’m excited to be able to hopefully give back a little bit. Brett McKay: Well, thanks for listening. I appreciate it. So you are a clinical psychologist who specializes in helping people with conditions like bipolar disorder and severe depression, severe anxiety. You got a new book out called The Light Between the Leaves. Basically, you share insights from your career, but also from your own life. You talk about in the book, you began your career as a psychologist because you were trying to seek treatment for your own depression. Can you walk us through your history with depression? Dr. Scott Eilers: Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly right. The first time I distinctly remember feeling a deep sense of depression was in seventh grade. I think that probably wasn’t actually the first time I experienced it, but you know how childhood memories are. They can be a little bit foggy. I know I was never exactly what you would call a happy child, but there was one distinct moment. I will never forget it, and it just came out of absolutely nowhere. This was in swimming class. So I’m in a swimming pool with my buddies in school, and all of a sudden I noticed I just didn’t feel any happiness. And it wasn’t even like I was bored or disinterested. It was, it was gone. My ability to connect with anything resembling a positive emotion was just shut down and it came out of nowhere and it didn’t seem to be about anything. I felt like someone I loved had just died, but nothing had happened. And I was baffled and scared, and I remember I kind of crawled out of the pool and just sat on the edge with my head in my hands and I could hardly even talk. And my friends were like, did something happen? What’s wrong? And I didn’t even know how to answer them. And I remember I just went home and just laid in bed all day and I had no idea what was happening at the time. Only with the benefit of hindsight am I able to say, oh, that was a depressive episode, and it didn’t go away th...