766. Tim Galladaut

Summary

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Podcast UFO — Episode 766: Tim Galladaut

Date: July 8, 2026
Host: Martin
Guest: Tim Galladaut
Producer: Donna Killeen

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Episode Overview

This episode features oceanographer and former NOAA administrator Tim Galladaut discussing his involvement in governmental UAP (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena) research and advisory panels, as well as his new book, Holding Fast and Heavy Seas. The conversation explores recent progress in government transparency on UFOs/UAP, governmental and scientific attitudes toward the phenomenon, firsthand reports from military sources, the intersection of AI and UAP research, and the enduring social stigma surrounding the topic. The episode provides an insider's view of current U.S. advisory work, submarine UAP/USO (Unidentified Submerged Object) encounters, and reflections on scientific and political challenges in seeking the truth about anomalous aerial and undersea phenomena.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tim’s Background and Spark of Interest

• Early Interest: Tim was fascinated by UFOs growing up, watching shows like "In Search of" with Leonard Nimoy ([02:44]).
• Professional Lens: His experience as superintendent of the Naval Observatory deepened his conviction that intelligent life likely exists elsewhere, given the universe's vastness ([02:56]).
• Firsthand Exposure: Galladaut saw firsthand classified Navy video evidence of UAPs, reinforcing his scientific curiosity ([03:47]).

"Just knowing how large the universe was after working with them made me just think it was impossible, that if there's 100 billion stars in our galaxy and there's trillions of galaxies in the observable universe, how could we possibly be alone?" — Tim ([02:56])

2. The Government’s New UAP Science Advisory Council

• Clarification: Tim clarifies that the new UAP Science Advisory Council reports to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI), not the White House, though it is sanctioned by the executive branch ([04:19]).
• Mandate: The council’s role is to make recommendations regarding UAP research, with initial tasks including reviewing Pentagon UFO files and requesting extensive data sets ([05:03]).
• Ocean Focus: Tim’s unique focus is on UAP/USO events reported by submarine personnel—he’s collecting sonar and acoustic data from multiple submarine cases ([05:57]).

"Our charter is to make recommendations to the ODNI regarding UAP research broadly." — Tim ([05:03])

• Transparency & Classification Challenges: Some requested data is classified and may remain inaccessible, posing ongoing hurdles for transparency ([06:36]).
• A Milestone: Tim emphasizes how unprecedented it is to have so many declassified files and a sanctioned government body addressing UAP openly ([08:05]).

3. Scientific Courage and Social Dynamics

• Avi Loeb’s Role: Much praise for Avi Loeb’s open-minded, childlike curiosity, and the personal/professional risks scientists take addressing “the big puzzle” ([08:05]–[09:15]).
• Ridicule & Belief Shift: Tim notes that social media attacks are often orchestrated by entrenched interests, whereas his professional peers and family have warmed to UAP research ([11:42]).

"The only people who are saying negative things about my speaking out are the well-known folks on social media who I believe are on the payroll of some of the former government institutions..." — Tim ([11:42])

• National Security or Non-Human Intelligence: The council approaches the issue with two main outcomes: either adversary tech or non-human intelligence—both massive for science and security ([12:47]).

4. Submarine and Undersea UAP (USO) Encounters

• Firsthand Accounts: Tim details several USO encounters collected from submarine officers, including an incident in the 1980s North Atlantic where an object matched the speed and signature of a Russian torpedo, then performed remarkable maneuvers ([14:25], [15:49]).
• Unexplained Technology: Objects recorded at speeds like 80 knots underwater; some incidents are corroborated by public reports ([16:48]).
• Scientific Goal: The aim is to obtain and analyze sonar/acoustic data to understand these anomalies—whether they are adversary tech or "anomalous phenomena" ([17:06]).

5. Collaboration, Exploration, and the Limits of Knowledge

• Scott Cassell Partnership: Discussion of team-up with undersea explorer Scott Cassell to search for USOs; the difficulty is the lack of precise data to follow up in the vast, unmapped ocean ([18:05]).
• Anecdotes: Tim and Martin share stories about deep-sea exploration and dangers, highlighting Cassell's achievement in filming the giant squid and remarkable “gold cube” USO encounter ([18:35]).
• Ocean Mapping Limitations: Only about 27% of the seafloor has been mapped to modern standards; humans have imaged just about 10% of the ocean volume ([41:40]).
• Rationales for USOs: The ocean offers cover and elusiveness—if UAP/USO operators wish to remain undetected, extensive underwater hiding makes sense ([43:09]).

6. Book Release — “Holding Fast and Heavy Seas”

• Themes: The book focuses on leadership during turbulent times, with stories from Tim’s Navy and NOAA tenures; contains only one chapter on UAPs ([20:14]).
• Science under Pressure: Tim describes navigating scientific integrity under political pressure, especially during the NOAA “SharpieGate” controversy, and striving to “hold fast” ([24:05]).

"If there was ever a time where we needed solid leadership, leaders with integrity, it's now, so please don't leave." — Tim ([26:45]) (paraphrasing NOAA colleagues asking him to stay after SharpieGate)

7. Political Scenarios & UAP Disclosure

• Trump Administration: The panel was enabled during Trump's first term, and now some transparency and public advisory work are progressing; Tim is cautiously optimistic about true openness ([27:46]).
• Information “Stovepiping”: The government’s habit of compartmentalizing data (special access programs) means no one has a full picture, even at the highest levels ([39:33], [40:56]).

"He just looked at me with all seriousness and said we still don't know what they are." — Tim ([39:33], reporting a 2024 comment by a top Navy intelligence official)

• Missing Data: Stories persist about high-res video (e.g., color gimbal video) seen by Navy crew but never released to the public ([29:51]), and Tim attests to other “good stuff” existing but not disclosed ([32:05]).

8. Artificial Intelligence and UAP Investigation

• AI Integration: Tim has applied machine learning to oceanographic data since the 1980s; he believes modern AI can help process video, images, and open-source trend analysis ([34:17]).
• AI–NHI Interplay: Recommends Diana Pasulka’s book “The Others” on the intersection of AI and non-human intelligence ([35:31]).

9. The Human Factor: Curiosity, Stigma, and Popular Awareness

• Embracing Curiosity: Many people Tim knows have quietly begun their own UAP research as scientific stigma lessens ([36:22]).
• Media and Public Awareness: Despite a surge in online interest (a government UFO site received over 1.5 billion hits), public awareness lags due to patchy coverage by major networks ([37:52]).

"We broke the bar in terms of acceptance and awareness." — Tim ([37:54])

• Why Not More Interest? Martin observes that most people remain uninterested or uninformed about major UAP events or congressional hearings, possibly due to media reticence or ingrained skepticism ([37:58]).

10. The Phenomenon’s Baffling Nature and the Path Ahead

• Physics Defied: UAPs/USOs often display capabilities (instant acceleration, lack of sonic booms, seamless transition into water) that defy conventional science ([44:20]).
• Limits of Current Knowledge: Tim urges humility—no one has the complete answer; more open, multi-disciplinary research is needed ([39:33], [45:01]).

"I think the way to characterize it best...is that there's engineering not learn how to do." — Tim ([45:01])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Scale of the Cosmos and the Improbability of Isolation
  • "What a waste of space if we're alone." — Martin ([03:47])
• On Ridicule
  • "The only people who are saying negative things about my speaking out are the well known folks on social media who I believe are on the payroll of some of the former government institutions or potentially Contractors..." — Tim ([11:42])
• On Two Possible UAP Explanations
  • "One is these phenomena represent adversary technology...The other possibility is that it represents some non human intelligence off world...which is the biggest discovery in the history of science, period." — Tim ([12:47])
• Ocean as Hiding Place
  • "Obviously if these craft do what they do in the atmosphere...then the place to be where lied undetected long periods of time would be the ocean." — Tim ([43:09])
• On “SharpieGate”
  • "He [Trump] had a staffer draw on the official forecast track...and it appeared to be with a Sharpie. And that's what he signed all his executive orders...in fact, my presidential appointment letter...is signed by Trump with a big Sharpie." — Tim ([24:16])
• On UAP’s Evasive Nature
  • "There's an element of phenomena that wants to be observed in a limited way...it doesn't seem to want to be a full connecting and full societal awareness." — Tim ([43:42])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:44] — Tim’s childhood interest and professional background
• [04:19] — Clarifying the advisory council’s relationship to the White House/ODNI
• [05:03] — Advisory council’s goals and initial data requests, submarine USO accounts
• [08:05] — The courage and approach of Avi Loeb and other open-minded scientists
• [11:42] — Discussion of ridicule, social media attacks, and shifting attitudes
• [14:25] — Submarine USO case in the 1980s, North Atlantic
• [16:48] — Other public submarine USO reports (Keith Mahosky)
• [18:05] — Partnership with Scott Cassell and USO search expeditions
• [20:14] — Tim’s new book and its focus
• [24:05] — “SharpieGate” incident and scientific integrity under political pressure
• [27:46] — UAP transparency under current/future administrations
• [29:51] — Missing high-resolution Navy UFO videos
• [32:05] — “Good stuff” (incontrovertible evidence) exists; materials, videos, and crash retrievals
• [34:17] — Role of AI in UAP analysis and Diana Pasulka’s “The Others”
• [37:54] — Explosive online/public interest statistics
• [39:33] — Compartmentalization, information stovepiping, and coverage gaps in governmental knowledge
• [41:40] — How much of the ocean is mapped and understood
• [44:20] — UAPs’ non-Newtonian movement, lack of sonic booms, “engineering not learn how to do”
• [45:12] — Reflecting on the metaphor “Holding Fast and Heavy Seas” and agency challenges

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Final Thoughts

The episode offers a candid, behind-the-scenes look at how UAPs are being investigated within the U.S. government, highlighting both the progress made and the limitations imposed by secrecy and data silos. Tim Galladaut’s scientific and leadership credentials lend significant weight to his measured optimism about ongoing research and future breakthroughs, especially as stigma recedes and broader segments of society—and the scientific community—engage with the topic. The conversation is a compelling call for more science, more transparency, and more curiosity about one of humanity’s greatest mysteries.

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Transcript

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[Martin]

Tim, so glad to have you back. Welcome to the show.

[Tim]

Hey, thank you, Martin. Glad to be back.

[Martin]

And I gotta tell you, since you were on, I. I think it's possible that I was maybe the second person interview. I don't. It doesn't matter. But since that interview you have done so much and I love the way you have treated this topic with such high respect and you bring respect to the topic and it was great to see you at Contact in the Desert and more recently on the 25th at the forum event down there, the disclosure forum. It was just you did such a great job and I'm so happy that you're involved the way you are. And so I want to ask you, besides having that event in the email and the disappearing video and all that, did you have an interest in any of this before that? Or is that what really started the whole thing?

[Tim]

I was always interested as a young kid growing up in Southern California. There was a show on that Leonard Nimoy hosted called In Search of and.

[Martin]

And I love that one. Yeah.

[Tim]

And of course, he would treat the topic. And I was fascinated by back then, just the thought that we might not be alone in the universe and all these different sightings that have been reported up until then, and then. And then, of course, over time. I told you, I think, that I was the superintendent of the Naval Observatory. So I had a whole team of astrophysicists who worked for me, whose job it was to observe the stars, their locations and magnitudes that satellites used to navigate, and including gps. And just knowing how large the universe was after working with them made me just think it was impossible, that if there's 100 billion stars in our galaxy and there's trillions of galaxies in the observable universe, how could we possibly be alone? So those were always lingering in the back of my mind before I actually saw firsthand video evidence on the Navy's classified systems of uap.

[Martin]

I love that you're saying, what a waste of space if we're alone. You just think about it. It's so hard to try to understand. Like if you took every single grain of sand on the Earth on every beach, that there's more stars than that. That's so hard to picture. But it gives you some type of guideline to use to say it's enormous on and on, and the distance between them and all that. It's just baffling. First of all, I want to congratulate you on your appointment to the White House UAP advisory with Avi Loeb. How did that come about?

[Tim]

Sure. First, let me make a correction, Martin. It's not a White House body. It is a report. We report as a science advisory council to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. So that's who we fall under. However, we would not have been established unless the White House approved it. So it is sanctioned by the White House, but we do not report to the White House. So that's an instinction that has to be clarified because everybody's saying it's a White House body, and it is not. However, it's notable. And it is an official executive branch federal advisory council, which is absolutely, I think, a monumental in terms of a development in our field of UAP research.

[Martin]

So what is basically the advisory panel, and what do you expect your role to be in it?

[Tim]

Yeah, just. And again, being very specific about this because I, I was in the government, if you recall, both in the Navy and as a, an appointee during the first Trump administration. So we have to be really precise about language. It's an advisory council. That's our name. And our charter is to make recommendations to the ODNI regarding UAP research broadly. And so our first task basically was to look at all the white, pardon me, the Pentagon UFO files and request characteristics and data sets associated with them so that we can perform proper analysis to determine how anomalous or not the different videos and reports are. So we've submitted a list of about 50 items we requested, and they not only involve, pardon me, the Pentagon UFO files, but our own private research, for example. Again, people know that from my experience as an oceanographer in the Navy and in the government, I'm very interested in the occurrence of UAP in the ocean. And so I've had three different submarine officers and sailors come to me who had reports of anomalous phenomena moving very rapidly, faster than any objects that we know of that can do that in the water. And those three people, basically, I have dates, I have the submarine names and locations, and we've requested acoustic information from the sonars of those submarines that we can proper analysis. And that's just one example of the data we're requesting. We have a challenge. I gotta be clear.

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[Tim]

Some of the data, because of the sensors or locations may be classified and may never be declassified, and that, that's going to possibly hold us back. But our first step is at least ask, and then we're going to continue to go forward to do the kind of research that actually AVI is doing with the Galileo project. He's setting up a network of very different observing systems and to determine and characterize precisely the nature of UAP movement and, and the characteristics of the phenomena and crap. And so we're going to do the same with the DoD data that exists. So step back for a minute and appreciate what's going on here, because we've had these recent UFO file releases, basically hundreds of them. And before that, we only had three or so videos that we know the Go Fast, the Gimbal, and I believe, the Tic Tac. And look at what we have now. We have a real trove of, of data that has been classified until now and it's now been declassified. So that's a milestone that's truly remarkable. And I think we have to appreciate where we are. We have to appreciate that we're now a sanctioned government body due to do this kind of research being acknowledged in the open press and with a spokesman like Avi Loeb, who just disappoints me. He's an esteemed astrophysicist and he's taking a great amount of courage to address this topic. And of course, you go on social media and he's got a ton of haters already. And that's just people aren't being objective about the important place we are right now.

[Martin]

I agree. And I've had Avi on this show, I don't know, maybe four times, I believe. And I love the way he approaches this. He admittedly says he approaches it like a child, a curious child. And I love that. I know that's for instance, that's where AI, that's where it's making all the leaps and bounds, is someone was watching a toddler and thinking, wow, that is curious. And learning. And I think as we get more and more into AI or AGI, that's artificial general intelligence, they're using the model of an infant learning. I think it's great. And he said that he took like an inspiration from his daughter who was asking him questions, and he thought, why not ask in science? Why not ask these questions? So I love the fact that people. You can't get more credibility than his position at Harvard. And there's people that will complain, unfortunately, about everything. I've been watching this for a while and, you know, especially on Twitter. Twitter, it's. They used to say, oh, ufo, Twitter, what a headache. Stay away because there are people. It's very divisive. And so you just have to tune all that out and just keep moving on and do the right thing.

[Tim]

What I like about Avi too, is he has this courage that so few people today have had in really looking at the nature of our universe. And he's concluded wisely, in my opinion, that, okay, we know life is a property of the universe. We've evolved in a very short time frame, by the way. He says we're newcomers on the cosmic block, being around only for about 4 point, or Earth being about 4 point, so what billion years? And then, and then as a species, my gosh, we're just very much a sliver of time compared to the 14 or so billion years of the universe. Why would not another intelligent civilization have evolved and possibly been exterminated? And then another one involved? Etc. The universe is likely teeming with intelligent life. And that. That's the sort of reasoning he takes to this, which, like he says, it would be extraordinary if other intelligent life wasn't in the universe that that would be. And I wish more scientists would just think about this topic and admit so.

[Martin]

And I remember I was with hanging out with Dr. Michael Masters. I'm not sure if you know who he is. He's a professor. Yeah. And his theory is the time travel. We've had some great discussions. But I was hanging out with him and he went up to this scientist that happened to be somewhere. I'm trying to remember where we were in the conversation. He's saying, what's wrong with you for not being curious about this? This could be the one of the biggest puzzles we'd ever solve. And aren't you open to science, real science? And that would be discovering what this is. And with an open mind. Basically he was chewing the guy out. And I don't remember what the conversation was, but yeah. And I got to say over and over again I've thanked Leslie Kane and other people. Ralph Blumenthal, I've Never met the third author of the December 17th New York Times article. 16, 2017.

[Tim]

Correct.

[Martin]

Yeah. I can't believe how many years that is. Nine years now. And but it's incredible what that has done for people of science. Avi Loeb and all the people that have come forward, Kevin Knuth, all these people that were heavily involved with science and they were saying they're going to dip their toe in the water. Because if that comes out and the Pentagon is saying that there's something to this, then I'm not going to get as much ridicule. I think we all get a little ridicule. And let me ask you this, have you, from any of your friends, friends or colleagues or anything like that had any ridicule for this part of interest in your life?

[Tim]

It's a great question and this is what's so interesting about that. No, in my whole professional and personal life, family members included, who were skeptical, have embraced this topic and begun their own personal research and have come back to me with interest. And my brother in law is a great example. He's a very senior person in the Smithsonian and he was scoffed at all this. But then he started to do research and he realized, my gosh, there's something here. And the same goes for colleagues in my professional life, both in the Navy and when I worked at noaa. And that's what's absolutely remarkable. The only people who are saying negative things about my speaking out are the well known folks on social media who I believe are on the payroll of some of the former government institutions or potentially Contractors that are working to actively debunk the phenomena. And that's a whole another storyline if we want to talk to that. But let me make a point here, Martin, quickly, because our Science Advisory Council is entering into this with basically two potential answers or results. One is these phenomena represent adversary technology and if that's the case, we got some serious national security concerns and therefore it does behoove us to openly research and study the nature and characteristics of uap. The other possibility is that it represents some non human intelligence off world, not, we are not alone conclusion, which is the biggest discovery in the history of science, period. So our options are quite important either way.

[Martin]

Absolutely, yeah. And that's why it's so hard to see it dismissed. And then we can go into talking about, not talking too much about it. But those drone incursions, there's so many weird things that are just very strange about that last year and some people are still saying that it's happening in different places. And I think that's still. There's been all types of various reporting on that. Plus when there were actually incursions in bases and things like that, then the FAA said no, nothing was happening and then they said it was happening. So it's just so bizarre. I really. That's another whole puzzle.

[Tim]

I wish I had more to say on that. I don't, I just don't know. But yes, it's concerning when we have these drones or whatever, they appear to be freely maneuvering in our airspace with impunity, that's not a good place to be in either situation. And again that's our intent is going to be, is to research all of these sightings rigorously, scientifically too and acquire as much data as possible.

[Martin]

Now there was, there was a case and pardon me for not knowing what it was, but it had to do with one of our subs and something was clocked, I think more than one

[Tim]

uso, some aware of three different instances. Those are the cases that I reported. And this one instance was in the 80s in the North Atlantic during a very high strong storm, very high sea states and ambient noise they call it, from waves breaking. And there shouldn't have been an object detecting this submarine. And there was an object that came by and closed on them very rapidly, so much so that it had all the signatures of being a Russian torpedo. And they had trained to avoid these. So they did an emergency dive they called emergency deep maneuver and approaching near crushed depth because this was closing on them so rapidly. And then when it became very close, the object stalled and then maneuvered it around the stern of the submarine and then slowly exited the area and they couldn't explain it. And, and that's happened twice. Another, another submarine officer, he's openly public about it. It's posted on the web. His name is Keith Mahosky, retired as a captain in the submarine force.

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[Tim]

And he has this report of something very similar. 80 knots was the recorded speed on sonar and they performed another emergency deep maneuver. And yes. So these, this is what we want to get to the bottom of. What are these objects? They're either undersea warfare, threats of national significance or again anomalies and prove that

[Martin]

we're not alone then I've heard Mark d' Antonio talking about what they called a fast mover or something like that when he was out on a test and he had mentioned 200 knots. I don't know has anyone ever mentioned anything of that type of speed other than him?

[Tim]

And I can't verify if that term is a standard term. I've heard him say it's fast walkers, I believe, but I just, I can't verify that because that. That never crossed my desk or I've never heard a report like that when I was in the Navy.

[Martin]

Yeah. Okay. One last thing before we talk about your book. And that is I was thrilled that I made a connection with you and Scott Cassell. The under. Undersea. I don't want. I don't know, he's like a superhuman person. 5000 hours of rebreather or something like he's got statistics is 20,000 hours under the water, which is just amazing. And I'm so glad that you two connected and are interested in doing some exploration. That's great.

[Tim]

He's really remarkable. It makes my resume pale in comparison. But I think he has hundreds of submersible dives in addition to scuba dives and rebreather dives. So yeah, I'm excited to team up with him. And our goal is to start conducting some USOs search expeditions. That's a challenging thing because the data on these objects is so lacking and sparse. We have to start somewhere and he's got the credentials to team up and hopefully do something and discover some things

[Martin]

just for the listener and the watcher. Scott Cassell was the first one to ever film the giant squid in the wild, first of all. And then when he was on my show, he talked about an encounter and I think it's one of the most downloaded shows I've ever had. Of a gold cube off the coast of Mexico in the Sea of Cortez. He was 65 miles offshore. He was a couple hundred feet down and he went down to 400ft with this thing under intelligent control. A bright gold cube. Pretty amazing.

[Tim]

But anyway, for your audience who might not know about scuba diving, that that dive is like climbing Mount Everest. It's so dangerous and so few people have dived that deep. He's really superhuman and deserves a great deal of credit.

[Martin]

He almost had his arm ripped off from. I can't remember the name of the type of squid. It's about a five foot long squid. They're very vicious. And a day later he was in a shark cage.

[Tim]

We actually share that experience. I and my wife have both been cage diving with sharks off Guadalupe Island, Mexico. And that. That'll get your adrenaline up. But. But magnificent creatures and something very exciting to do.

[Martin]

Yeah. He says he treats him like a little dog, a little doggy. Yeah.

[Tim]

They're much the same because they follow the. Just like. It's like a beagle and so if you're in clear water and you're not bleeding, you don't, you don't appear and you don't appear to be like prey, then they're really not going to be very interested in humans. You just don't present like that. Typical prey.

[Martin]

Yeah, but movies like Jaws and things like that does. They don't really help people in the way they look at sharks. But anyway, so let's talk about your book, the title first and what made you decide to write this book.

[Tim]

There you go. Here it is, Holding Fast and Heavy Seas, appropriate for my career as an oceanographer. It's out in July, July 7, I think on bookshelves. I wrote it because it's mostly about leadership. There's only a little bit about my UAP experience, just a small part in a chapter, but it's all about speaking truth to science. And of course I recount the first half all my Navy career and the great people who taught me how to be a better leader. So there are a lot of fun to see stories in it. And the second half is about me leading the science agency noaa, the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration during Trump's first term. Anybody who watches just a sliver of news nowadays knows that President Trump is not an easy executive to work for. And so those I had challenges and that's holding fast. But as the leader of noaa, we had a number of really significant ocean related wins. We established new ocean marine protected areas called National Marine Sanctuaries, for example, that are like the national parks underwater. We advanced a number of different strategies, for example, and plans to help repair dying coral reefs in, in Florida. And, and then we worked on this other area that we call our Blue Economy Strategic plan, which is really helping American the American shoreside coastal and ocean economies and Great Lakes advance with our data and services, which is a great news story. All of those were good wins. Of course the media at the time, if it was anything good that Trump agencies were doing, they wouldn't report on it. And so I use my book to tell a story of really making a number of really big wins when it was challenging. We had budget cuts and a lot of firings like you've read about in the federal government when the Trump administration had the second time around. But we persevered and that's the book is about this leadership when it's difficult and, and staying true to science because we are a science agency.

[Martin]

Yeah, that's so important. And science isn't something I've seen this happen. Unfortunately, things like Neil DeGrasse Tyson and

[Bluff]

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[Martin]

Things like that. Science should always be open minded and not trying to fit things in place and which he had previously always done in the with the UFO topic that there was really nothing to it and well, we don't really need to go into that but can we talk about in the book what is the Sharp gate incident?

[Tim]

Okay, yeah, I won't go

[Martin]

Is Sharpie Gate? Is that what I think it is with him doing the thing on the map? Yeah, I remember that that was the

[Tim]

biggest, biggest challenge we encountered during that time period. They call it Sharpie Gate because what happened was there was a time when hurricane named Dorian was approaching the US and the trump was tweeting about the storm and giving updates and at one point he he looked at a spread of the models. The spaghetti plot that has been advertised of hurricane tracks and a few of the models showed the storm going into Alabama. However most of the models had the storm turning around the Carolinas and going off to the Atlantic. And that's eventually what happened. But Trump, like he would do, he often tweeted after with old information, and he mentioned that Alabama was at risk. So our National Weather Service, which is responsible for keeping all citizens safe all around the country, the office in Alabama, what happened is they started getting all these calls after Trump tweeted that, asking if Alabama was going to be at risk and if they needed to evacuate. And so they ended up posting, alabama is going to be fine. The storm is not going to affect the state. And again, Trump tweeted this based on old information. And then what happened, though, is that he went, had a press conference and he wanted to justify his tweet of days ago, and he had a staffer drew on the official forecast track that the Natural Hurricane center under noaa, under the National Weather Service, that he drew an extension of this official track around Alabama, and it appeared to be with a Sharpie. And that's what he signed all his executive orders and whatnot with, is a big, heavy Sharpie. In fact, my presidential appointment letter is hanging right up here, and it's signed by Trump with a big Sharpie. And so, of course, American scientists went nuts because here is an official forecast product by a science agency that affects millions of people in terms of their safety. And like a. Forgive me for those who really admire President Trump, but it was. He was being like a child who was just trying to defend what he said with an official scientific product. So that just ended up creating a storm of controversy and scandal. And. And then there was a further extension about it that I'm not going to address here. But some political officials in the Department of Commerce and in my agency ended up defending Trump's Trump statements and whatnot. And. And that's all in the book. And that was a big challenge. And again, like I said, we really were in a crisis mode because so many people were upset with what we were doing. And I was ready to quit over this, but I had individuals in the National Weather Service come to me and say, hey, if there was ever a time where we needed solid leadership, leaders with integrity, it's now, so please don't leave. And on more than one occasion during my tenure at noaa.

[Martin]

Yeah. Wow. So speaking of Trump, he's. At least you said earlier, even if you don't like him, you have to congratulate when things are done right. And I never get political on this show, and I don't pay attention to politics. I just. It's better for me not to. So I just stay out of all that. But still, I will tell you that if he seemingly is open to transparency now, I don't know if he's going to have any roadblocks, like often happens, it seems to often happen when someone tries to find out information like this. How do you feel this is going so far?

[Tim]

Better than ever before. You have to admit. Look at the progress we've made with files being released, with the Science Advisory Council being established public statements and now granted his personal public statements, or as president, pardon me, where he just basically said, here are all the files, it's up to you to decide. I think that was a little like a blank. I'm not sure that was. I don't know what to do with that right now. But all I know is he's charged a body that I'm a part of now to go do the research on it. So at least that's happened. And now. So it remains to be seen, it remains to be seen how much liberty and license we'll have to conduct that kind of research. We're going to go and do the best we can with what we have and follow our charter to make recommendations about data to release and information to share with us. And so we'll see. There is a concern, of course, any administration, whether it be Republican or Democrat, they put out information that's advantageous, advantageous to their position. And so we don't. It's some people think that this is possibly just so he can make the statement that he's being transparent and more transparent, but maybe real information is not going to be provided. But there's no, we can't really say that way conclusively or not. So I think we just need to follow the Council's work and research. And if real information starts coming forward and real progress in UAP research occurs, then we'll be in a good place.

[Martin]

Often wonder if there's some things that are somehow tucked away in a way that cannot be discovered. That may be a little too much now. I'm just going to give a For instance. Matthew Rogers was in Navy Intelligence, but he was also on board the ship and I cannot remember the name of it, but when the gimbal happened and he watched that over and over again while he was on board, and he said when he went up to some officer, officer or whatever, they had color video of it. They had video of it, not the floor video. So he said, I saw that they were actually watching it. And where is that? Where would, where do Those things go, that really puzzles me.

[Tim]

Right. So I know of other data, video evidence that has not been shared that are more conclusive in terms of their resolution and content about the anomalous nature of the objects being not, no possibility that it's our technology is what I mean. So I know that kind of, that kind of video evidence exists, but we've not yet seen that. For example, let me share share a story with you after I was giving a lecture at Yale University and I never say no to a college or university that asked me to speak on this topic. So that's the next generation and they're open and I think that's really what's going to move the needle. So if any of you are out there that represent university departments or, or affiliated groups, I'm really open to visiting and putting this message out. Anyway, a person came down from the audience afterwards and he said, hey, I was a sailor on a helicopter squadron that was flying off the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, a nuclear powered aircraft carrier in 2021 and we were on deployment in I think, I believe the Middle East. And he was called, he was called to get the helicopter ready to fly. And he was a crew chief by the way, very senior enlisted person. And it turned out the mission they had was to collect floor video data of a uap. And this was not a just a, some kind of spherical orb that was amorphous if you will. This was a very clear metallic sphere the size, the size of a Waymo vehicle and that so we have very clear video evidence of these metallic spheres. The most SOL orb has been, that's been declassified and shared and, and there are many like it. I think getting more data about those and how they operate and do what they do would potentially really reveal some phenomenal either technology or just phenomena that I want to see and study.

[Martin]

I don't know if you were in the room when I asked the question and the, at the forum the other day, where's the good stuff? Because that's what people are asking me and saying to me. I don't think we've seen it all, but I'm hoping that there'll be transparency all the way through this thing. That's really the only way we're really going to move forward and I think your efforts are going to help a lot with that.

[Tim]

That's our goal. And we know that data exists. So there is good stuff out there, no question about it. And in fact, and we know of course that we have retrieved crashed vehicles and that's that Hal Putoff stated that on Joe Rogan and I trust him completely. So this is. We know we have these programs and the good stuff will be video evidence of that and even materials to study in a lab.

[Martin]

I was really shocked after talking to him the other day that he's 90 years old. He's so sharp. He's really with it.

[Tim]

You wouldn't believe it. He's a fantastic, great human being too. Just a quality human. And I just got off a call with him. He has, he's developing a communications technology that's very advanced, more than anything I've ever seen. And we were just speaking with a potential very accomplished and wealthy investor on earth and he led the whole presentation and yeah, he's 90 years old. Quite an inspiration on every level.

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[Martin]

Do you think that AI will help in research in the future? I. I personally think it can help in a lot of ways. But in the research that you're doing, is there any type of work that you can do using AI?

[Tim]

Oh yeah. And it's a funny thing about AI being addressed as this big frontier technology, which it is. But I did a master's thesis, I started working that in 1989 that used machine learning to study satellite images of the ocean. And so I developed a big pattern matching algorithm and worked in several other type of AI topics. And so it's not very new. There's new developments for sure and certainly large language models are new. Were. But it's just the fact that our computing power is so vast and that the models have begin advancing so rapidly. And now we're using AI to write AI code like vibe coding. If you've ever Heard of that. Look it up. It's crazy, but. So I think the answer is definitely, yeah. Certainly with image and video data, machine learning can do things that human analysts cannot. And then I think we can apply AI in differently novel ways. Large language models can be used to study open source reporting and developing trends and patterns. So I think absolutely, yes. A new and more interesting area of thought is the intersection of AI and the non human intelligence or NHI that we know have control the UAPs. Diana Pasulka is professor of Religious Studies at University of North Carolina Wilmington and her new book the Others I believe is the first complete treatment of that intersection AI and nhi. And it is a fantastic read. I got the honor of doing a review for her and so I urge readers to check that book out. After they check my book out.

[Martin]

I was, I was kind of disappointed she was going to be at Contact in the desert. Something happened but I was really looking forward to meet meeting her. She had been on the show in the past and. But yeah, that, that sounds, that's the book I'm going to get. I didn't realize. I remember seeing it briefly but not really looking at it but that if that's. I'm very fascinated in all that and I think that's. Yes, yes. And do you feel as though you might have inspired any other people to look at this topic? You talked about your brother in law but other people like that. Any colleagues?

[Tim]

Many. I can't tell you how many folks from my different professional endeavor come to me and said hey, I started looking at this while been fun and I have a network now. And so that's. I think I continue.

[Martin]

I have to tell you this is a silly story but my sister could care less about this topic at all. And my brother in law, her husband was a scientist for a long time at Los Alamos Labs and he's. I told him what I was doing and I says it's possible extraterrestrial. I don't know what it is but I never say it's aliens, I don't really know and, but he says well it's very possible like that. But he doesn't really care. He doesn't really. It's nothing that he's interested in and that's okay. But my sister, I tried to show some things that I thought you're gonna look at this. The aerial phenomenon. The aerial school incident to me is one of the top incidents that ever happened. And she's what's for dinner? And why do you think that is with so Many people, it just baffles me. Do they have to have an encounter like I did to. To turn the page and to take a look at this. What do you think it is? Why there's so few people interested? We're just a small niche of society that's interested in this topic.

[Tim]

Look at the Spozergate film that.

[Martin]

Yeah.

[Tim]

Wide acclaim. And that in itself shows the popularity of this topic. And then there's the UFO website for the Department of War that has over a billion and a half hits.

[Martin]

That's true.

[Tim]

We broke the bar in terms of acceptance and awareness.

[Martin]

I guess it's. I guess why I'm saying that is that when I'm in the public, talking to the public out there and around, it's just so few people. If you bring up the topic, sometimes you get the rolling eyes and some people say, yeah, but then when I ask the question, have you seen the hearings in Washington D.C. have you seen what's going on? No, I had no idea. So maybe it's the media. I don't know what it is. My new News Nation is doing a wonderful job. Fox News covers it. CNN every once in a while does. But I just can't understand why no major networks are on such a fascinating topic. And I love what Ross Coldheart has done with News Nation and the coverage of this.

[Tim]

I'm. This, this is just so intrinsically fascinating. And that's why I pursued it is I just want to understand the truth.

[Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, I've said a number of times in the show I kind of given up on thinking that we'll ever have disclosure because when I've seen this, I've been doing this for 15 years, the show for 15 years. And I've seen like movements forward and back and forward and back and then some real bloopers some people have done over the years. I don't even want to get into it, but just that makes us look like tinfoil hatters type of thing. This time I want to say things feel a little different and I just feel like maybe I will understand. But my thing that I bring up often in the show is I don't think anyone really knows 100%. I think possibly some parts of the government may know a lot more than we know, but I don't know if they know the whole picture. And I would just wonder what your thoughts are on that.

[Tim]

Yeah, I do believe there are pockets of the government and the government is very good about compartmenting different special access programs. But just as A data point. I met with the former director or planning officer of the Office of Naval Intelligence while he was still. And this is 2024. So we were talking about some common ocean related issues. At the end of the meeting I brought up UAP and he just looked at me with all seriousness and said we still don't know what they are. Ah, so that's one data point that at least at that level and you would think he would be read into everything. But there was still uncertainty. More research and study has to be done.

[Martin]

I was the emcee at the MUFON event out in Cleveland in 2024 and I met with a former CIA member and a former FBI member that were there out of interest. Donna and I sat with them and we had an incredible conversation and. And he mentioned the stove piping the FBI, a retired FBI, the stove piping that these agencies do and which leads to trouble like 9, 11, things like that. Because the information is kept so carefully. I'm wondering if that is the same when it comes to this topic.

[Tim]

I think so. Of course you have that with special ethics program and this is what we know. If we look at the Pentagon profiles that have been released, all those videos have been classified for years. So we know we're a lot of information classified financial security, which if that's good. But again the our thing that there are these in the atmosphere. It's something people have a right to know.

[Martin]

Now as far as I know it's something like the water on the earth or something like of the earth or something like that. So but I think we only know something like 12 or 20% of the ocean bottom, something like that.

[Tim]

We have mapped the ocean seafloor about 27% of it to modern standards, which means with a beam sonar, depth measurement, GPS for altitude. So on the positional I can that's. And then the ocean volume is even less. Barely absorb 10% of the ocean volume with either drones, buoys or remotely operated vehicles. So that's a lot of water. That's a huge part of the planet.

[Martin]

And so there's all these people that have been saying oh they have these things undersea and all that. Logically it doesn't make any sense. Like why would they want to live under pressure and how. And in the dark it was pitch black down there, just a few hundred feet down. And what would be the attraction to being there? And the only attraction at all would be the vastness and to be away from being seen.

[Tim]

Obviously if these craft do what they do in the atmosphere Right angle turns accelerate some they more of them going in and out of the water in ways that are vehicles there's potentially do that in my opinion though it's pretty obvious they want to remain elusive. There's no UAP landing on the White House down.

[Martin]

Yeah.

[Tim]

So the place to be where lied undetected long periods of time would be the ocean.

[Martin]

Yeah I'd see that. One of the things that people say when you talk about that they're elusive is they say then how come they have lights? That's what a lot of people like will say that and one person that a researcher that I had and said might have something to do with propulsion of some type But I'm but they've had all types of lights on them. It is bizarre. Doesn't really fit with trying to be away from visual.

[Tim]

I would recommend your readers by Jacques. He is investigating and there is an element of phenomena that wants to be observed in a limited way and that's. That's when you see light various types of activity maneuvers and again it doesn't seem to want to be a full connecting and full societal awareness by the entities controlling. So we're just. Right now there's still a great deal of uncertainty and that's why we are going to be researching the phenomenon more.

[Martin]

You know one of the things you're talking earlier about going in and out of the sea and I know that it's been witnessed a lot that there's no splash or there's no slowing down because the one in was it Puerto Rico off Puerto Rico. I can't remember then where it was but it went into the water and the camera was following where it would be if it didn't go into the water and came right back up the same speed. You hear about things like that then you hear about these things taking off at a tremendous speed supersonic without doing a sonic boom. And all these things they just seem to make no sense. So I don't know what it is but I don't think it's from here exactly.

[Tim]

And I think the way to characterize it best not that there's some new physics going on is that there's engineering not learn how to do.

[Martin]

Yeah. Or something discovered in physics that we haven't couldn't imagine. Maybe. But this has been a wonderful conversation. The name of the book is Holding Fast and heavy Seas. That's a metaphor.

[Tim]

The fact that I faced a number of challenges leading this agency Noah and a lot of times I wanted to but decided not to. I think the agency together with I

[Martin]

want to thank you so much for everything you do. It's been such a pleasure to have you on and to meet you in person. It's been a real pleasure and thanks so much.

[Tim]

Hey Martin, thanks for having me. I just want to close by saying Happy Birthday to you and Donna. I know having that special comes out. So best of both of you.

[Martin]

That's right. We have our birthday the same day. I don't want to get into it too much, but it is very interesting and thanks so much Tim. Take care now.

[Tim]

Thank you. It's great to be here.

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