C (1:55)

So thank you, man. Means a lot.

A (1:57)

Yeah, for sure.

B (1:57)

Yeah, absolutely. I'm. I told you at the beginning, but I haven't jumped on a podcast in about two months.

A (2:03)

Two months.

B (2:04)

I became a dad, and, you know, I've been a little busy. Thank you. Thank you.

A (2:07)

Congratulations.

B (2:08)

Thank you. But I wouldn't have it any other way. You know, come back here with you. It's exciting.

C (2:14)

He has a lot of words kind of like, bottled up in case you hear more of Fonzie than anybody else. That's why.

B (2:21)

Been two months.

A (2:22)

So here's a question, though. Did you continue listening to podcast? And I asked. You guys consume a lot of podcasts, and you all do something I think that's really unique. You don't just listen to, like, learn from the podcast, but to learn about how the podcast works. Did you continue that trend at least?

B (2:35)

Yes, yes. Okay, good. Okay. I did listen to a lot of podcasts. Great.

A (2:38)

So I want to talk to you guys about this because we've. The three of us have seen a lot of what works in podcasting and also what doesn't work in podcasting. And today specifically, I want to address one of the big questions that comes up both from host and from guests, which is, I'm not getting any results from having a podcast, or I'm not getting any results from being a podcast guest. And I'm just going to kind of go right into what I think it is. It's the call to action that's the problem. It's not the content itself. Typically, the content can be really good. Like, I know a bunch of indie creators that are just absolutely incredible. The problem comes into play when we're telling listeners to take action, and that's where we either miss it by not doing it, or we tell them, here's 30 things. Right. And we'll get into all that. But the idea of a call to action is what I want to discuss with you guys today. So any initial thoughts on that before we dive into it?

C (3:23)

Yeah, 100%. I think maybe listeners are overwhelmed by the options that they are presented, and also the creator itself is overwhelmed maybe by opportunity. Right. Because we talked about, you know, not only sponsors, so there's a call to action to go check them out. But then if you have a product, you know, what product do I send them to? Right. And it's interesting because it's probably one of the platforms that you have those options. You have pre roll, meat roll, post Roll. Doing the episode organically, like, what do we do? And then maybe in our heads, like, limiting to, like, one call to action might be very intimidating.

B (3:55)

Now, I think from my point of view, an idea that has been very attractive to me lately, and by lately, I mean the last probably year or so, is the fact that every business is pretty unique, right? Every podcast is going to be very unique. So I don't want to sit here and be like, you should do this. You know, this is the one good call to action that you should take. I think everybody should take this, you know, with a grain of salt and actually test the thing, right? Like, my brother, he says, approach it as a hypothesis, right? Like, what is, you know, if I do X, will I, you know, see Y results? And then you go test it out, and then you're going to have a baseline, and off of that, then you can go on and improve, right? I think, you know, the tips that we're going to share, like, all the things that we're going to be talking about, I think is going to be a good, I guess, like, initial, you know, kind of like, first step for people to craft some good, you know, call to actions. But then at the end of the day, it's like, all right, what is your hypothesis? Like, you need to go and test it out. You know, make the same call to action for, I don't know, 10 episodes. Go back into the data. What is the percentage of people that actually visited this site due to the podcast? Can I improve that? All right, next hypothesis. Let's test it out.

A (5:11)

Yeah, these are both really good points. I mean, there's the overwhelm of, for. For both the host and the guest of, like, hey, I have options to put 20 things in here. Hey, guests, give us everything, right? And for you, there's no one size fits all. Like, and I totally agree that on both sides of the microphone, like, test it. Being willing to let it evolve and grow as you grow. So what we are going to go through today, though, are six steps for creating a really effective call to action as a host or as a guest. And so we'll dive in each of these and we'll kind of all share a perspective a little bit here. But I'm excited to dive into this because, yes, it's gonna be different for everybody. But there. There are some clues, like, success leaves clues, right, that will really help you figure out how to frame this out. So the very first one I have is kind of like a. It's point one, but it's a Prepoint and it's to develop know like and trust. On the podcast episode. We've probably all seen this happen before where somebody like wants to hold back because they know their call to action's coming. Kind of like they wanted to feel more like a sales pitch than like a value adding episode. I think that's a huge no go. I actually had one guest on podcast, this is going back years, and I asked him about a point on chapter four in his book and he literally said, you know what? Like, I really like kind of spilled the secret sauce in that, in that, in that chapter. So I'm gonna tell everyone to do is I can't share that here, but by the book you'll be able to learn it. Listen, like, I was like, okay, we'll move on to chapter six, right? But like, the reality is I know people are listening. Like that feels icky, right? Like I didn't develop know like and trust that tells me you're hiding something from me. What is it?

B (6:31)

Right.

A (6:31)

And so I always just tell people, like, give it all away. You wanted to develop that really strong relationship, that bond with the listener as a hosting guest. We both have that opportunity to do that so that then when you have a call to action, they are now primed and ready to listen and to respond. Well, any thoughts on this, guys?

C (6:46)

I think I agree 100%. I think I personally was one of those that were like subconsciously trying to be like, okay, no, it's sketchy, but it's like, okay, it's pretty intimidating, right? Like when, let's say you have an info informational based business, right, where you might have your own frameworks, right? There's that fear that when you're going to share, be like, okay, what, what's then like, what do I actually sell?

B (7:08)

Right?

C (7:09)

And I think that comes maybe as a newie, maybe at that point in the business. But like you said, the more you share, the more you develop that trust, or how we call it art, you know, authority, relevancy and trust. And then they're still going to listen. They'll be like, this applies to me. And then what's next? And then the what next is like complete. Read the chapter or like the entire book or the course or whatever comes. And I think that's good. And we've seen it over and over and over. And the people at the top, that's what we've seen happen, right? Like the more they share, the more it comes back to them.

B (7:41)

Yeah, I think that comes from a scarcity mindset. Right. It's like, oh, if I put this out there, somebody might steal it and use it in their own stuff. I'm like, guess what? Flashing is like, you know, you're probably not the only one that. That does that one thing. You know, like, maybe you have your own unique mechanism, but it can be probably somewhat similar to what other person does, and they just change the name of it, or you just change the name of it at the end of the day. So, I mean, it's more than important to just build that rapport inside of the episode. People are going to connect to. To you, to your personality, like, who you are. Like, sure, your product can be selling some sort of transformation, but they're going to be asking themselves, like, can this person, like, do I see myself trusting this person to deliver that transformation at the end of the day? And if you're somebody that is holding up, secrets are going to be like, why are they going to hold up if I buy into their product, right? Like, am I going to have to purchase, you know, the $100,000 mastermind for them to, you know, sell me the next thing that I need? Or are they going to, like, pour openly and just share and, like, genuinely help me out on the next step that I need to take?

A (8:48)

Fonzie. A little bit of experience there, I'm hearing. I don't. I don't know. Has this happened to you?

B (8:53)

Am I resentful? I'm, like, holding the microphone, like, $80,000 level.

A (8:56)

I'm not doing it again. Right.

C (8:58)

I think as a consumer, we. We've had very positive experience, but also very negative experience. And that's, you know, once you're in there, you're like, man, like, maybe that's something that we don't do as a business, right? That we. It's crazy. We have consultations here in the studio, and people are like, well, let's say we want to launch a podcast. I'm like, sweet. Here is a blog with all the information. Follow this in, like, 30 minutes. You'll be able to do it in, you know, right there, like the same day. And then it's like, well, if you want us to implement it for you because you don't want to do it or you don't have the time. Perfect. We can do that. But here's the thing. And do it. And it's incredible because people are like, oh, they appreciate that. And then more often than not, they come back and they end up buying the product.

A (9:36)

That's great, man. I love that.

B (9:37)

All right.

A (9:38)

Sake of Time. We're going to keep on moving here. Moving on to number two. This is kind of like getting into it, and you kind of hinted this a little bit, but it needs to be singular. A good call to action is going to be singular. And so both for the host and the guest. And I see this done wrong a lot. Host ask for ratings, reviews, subscribers. Follow me here, go to my website, share the, like, all the things, right? And then the guest, typically, maybe the guest only wants to have one, but the host will go on and be like, okay, well, where else can they find you? And so it kind of. I get the idea is like, hey, here's everything. But the reality is it just needs to be one thing. Like, it's called the call to action, not a call to actions, right? It's called to something singular, something specific, because that's what we can remember as human beings. Thoughts on this, guys?

B (10:18)

Yeah. I mean, personally, my mind goes to a confused mind, always says no or almost always says no. Right? And there's a. I feel like a study. I don't know who it should be attributed to. So I apologize in advance, but they did a study with, you know, consumers buying jam, and they had this group, they offered them three jams, and then another group, they offered them like, you know, 20 different flavors. And the group that had the least amount of flavors but more than the other one, right? Because you get overwhelmed. You're like, okay, what do I do? Me personally, that happens when I have a lot of options. You know, I'm like, geez, this is crazy. Like, the other day, actually, an app popped up, and I love going into ads and seeing the offers and. And the offer, I was like, I thought it was pretty decent. But then I scroll down to the bonus side of the offer, and they're like, 20 bonuses. And I'm like, geez, do I need all this stuff? I'm like, I'm overwhelmed. I'm like, I'm out of here. You know? And I think it's the same exact thing with this call to actions. Like, people will easily get overwhelmed if they are presented with too many options, right? And so you got to be considerate of your guests, right? If they are there to also promote something, you know, whether that is a course, a book, whatever it is, like, give them a general opportunity. And I know you do something really cool with your guests to, like, promote their stuff, right? But yeah, at the end of the day, I think it's like, kiss, right? Keep it simple, stupid. At the end of the day, yeah.

C (11:42)

I mean, I think at the end of the day, people are in there with you listening to that. So apart from singular is also relevant to the topic that you're talking about. Right? So, you know, especially in, in our show, for example, we talk about many frameworks and many stages of like, content and profit. And that's something that openly, I'll say, like, we've struggled to be like, okay, where do we actually send people?

B (12:02)

Right.

C (12:03)

And then there was a stage recently where we talked a lot about the monetization side of it. And the call to action was, hey, bistros, CO4 mon monetize. And that has been one of the most successful ones because it was like from the domain to like the solution that was in there that was relevant and the feedback was great. So be like, okay, perfect. And maybe in the next few episodes, we're not talking about the monetization side, but maybe we're like production. Well, what's the relevant call to action for that? Relevant single call to action.

A (12:30)

So that's the next point I want to get into here, which I love. I'm like mind reading, just way ahead of us. But I call that relatability. But I think that relevance is probably a better word for it. I should have rewritten that.

B (12:40)

That's good.

C (12:41)

I cannot your word right Spanish.

A (12:45)

But relatability, relevance, that's really key. Here's the thing, like if you're on a podcast, it's all about golf. You're talking about golf for 20 minutes and then you want to sell your like high ticket coaching package. It you're like, okay, am I coaching for golf or coaching for business? Like, what? How, why? Right? Like you want to go on that. That's a great first off sign to guests specifically to get on the right shows. Like, go on the shows that are going to align with your call to action, but also align your call to action, right? So like maybe don't go on golf podcast if that's not what your product or service is. Or perhaps if you're the host, like, find the thing, right? Like you said, you guys did a series on monetization. Your call to action was monetization driven. Anyone who's listening to episode you're developing know like and trust from a monetization perspective with them. If you tell them, the one thing I want you to do now is to go learn more about monetization, that's a pretty easy flow for somebody to follow. There's not a lot of like stretching of the mind that has to happen there. And So I, I love that you brought that up. And that to me, that again, that's 0.3 Fonzie. Any, any follow up to that?

B (13:39)

I mean, just be coherent, right? And just put yourself in the shoes of the person that is listening, right? It's like if they listen to this, after listening to the whole episode or you know, whatever, you place your call to action, are they going to be confused, right? So for example, a coherent call to action that I've seen from other podcasters at the beginning of the episode where they still haven't delivered any value is, hey, if you're enjoying this episode, make sure you share it with your friends or somebody that you believe this is going to help them out. That is a coherent call to action. Because it's like, okay, well I can get behind this. You know, you're prepping them. It's like, if you find value in this, just make sure you share it out into the world. But then after one hour of X Topic, if you hit a call to action with totally something totally different, you know, offering guitar lessons or whatever, and you know, you're talking about monetizing content, then obviously people are just going to be confused. Like, wait, what, why, why do I need the guitar lessons for? You know, I came here for totally something else. Yeah, yeah.

A (14:41)

So the other, the other point I want to mention here is I think that Evergreen is really important when it comes to this and a great example and we've probably all had this happen. You have someone come on your podcast that's an author pre release and they're really big on, hey, I want to mention like a pre release discount code. And I had one guest on my podcast, this is going back many years. I really didn't know how to handle it, but they were like so forward about like, hey, you told me the date, that's pre release of the book. You gotta mention the pre release. You gotta like mention the code and stuff like that. Well, two weeks later the book was out. And so now this whole pre release stuff, I'm getting emails, people are like, how do I get the discount? I'm like, oh, you can't, it's out. I'm like, wait a minute, why did I do that? Right? What was I thinking? We gotta think about the future as well and isn't gonna hold up on an Evergreen perspective. And for me as a host, the way that I've done that is I use dynamic insertion and I bust out my phone here. I don't you guys have to direct me on how close this needs to be. But I want everyone to hear this. What I use is dynamic insertion. So what I do is I only have a call to action on my podcast for me, when it's relevant. And right now it's relevant is the time of recording this. A new version of our monthly industry report came out, and so for four days, it's on my podcast. Before my introduction, I use dynamic insertion. I press a button, basically, and it's automatically in every single one of my episodes. So I'm gonna, I'm just gonna play it because it's like a few seconds long because I think perfect. Yeah. And you'll tell me if I'm like too close or whatever.

B (15:55)

So.

A (15:55)

Hey, Alex here. This month's independent podcasters report is now available. To see important podcasting related insights like listenership data, active versus inactive podcast numbers, industry download milestones, and many other data points that matter for both podcast hosts and guests, please visit podmatch.comreport and now let's get into today's episode.

B (16:15)

Sweet.

A (16:15)

It rolled into my regular intro. And the reason I like dynamic insertion as a host like that is, again, that's not relevant in 10 days from now. Like, right, it's. It's done. But right now it is relevant. And I like putting the beginning before my introduction because anyone who's a long term listener, they're used to hearing that, that, I don't know, call that that sound. And like me saying, you're listening to podcasting Made simple, when they hear, hey, Alex here, they already know that, like,

B (16:37)

hold on, it's a message psa. This is this.

A (16:39)

There's something else here. This is not what I usually hear. And your mind is like, hold on, I need to hear whatever this is. So, yeah, anyway, we need to keep on moving. Do you guys have like a quick. You have a. You look like you had something there, Bob.

C (16:48)

To me, I think that's super smart, especially for a lot of the, let's say, new podcasters. Maybe they're getting into this. Dynamic ad insertion might be something that could be intimidating because not a lot of the platforms offer that. So I love that you brought it up because it solves a big problem for a lot of people. So I would just recommend people like, hey, just Google dynamic ad insertion. What happens? Like, where do I do it? And if you are in a platform that doesn't offer it, start considering. Be like, where can I go and do that?

A (17:15)

Yeah, that's good.

B (17:16)

I think that's super clever, honestly. I mean, your business evolves, your products Your offers are going to evolve, right? Like, why don't have something that allows you to change those in all your episodes? Because I'm guessing, hopefully, you know, the person listening to this, they understand that a podcast has a long tail, right? You're going to keep getting listeners on those episodes, hopefully years from when you first publish it. Right? So you want to definitely make it relevant for them at that moment on how you can help them. And that still serves your business at the end of the day.

A (17:47)

Yeah, those are some good points there. And the last thing I'll mention on this is because I don't want to go too deep into it, but I like that it leaves room for my guests call to action. When I don't have mine in there all the time. There literally is just one call to action for a guest. I think that's a really great thing because there's only one thing on that episode for the most part, unless it's like my industry report. Right. That's going to need to happen. So moving on to point four. Now, point four is simple to understand. And listen, I think that this is where you laugh a little bit, because I think so many people get it wrong. If I have to spend five minutes explaining my call to action before I can give it one, I don't know if I know it well enough. But also, I can't expect other people to know it. Like, it has to be simple to understand. And I always say it should have the aha moment, which is like, somebody hears like, aha, like example. When I'm describing pod match people, I'll go through my little bit of a spiel, but I always say it works kind of like a dating app, but instead of connecting for dates, it connects you for podcast interviews. And every time people go, ah, I get it, I get that, right? Like, I understand that you want someone to hear your short call to action. Like, easy. It's simple. Understand means it needs to be short. But they need to be like, oh, I know exactly what that is. Like, I totally get what that is. To me, that kind of makes or breaks it. Like, what do you think?

B (18:53)

Yeah, I mean, I've told you this before, but I love the it's like type of framework, right? Because you immediately help somebody visualize that one thing that is might be common, you know, that, you know, they will probably know about and then immediately put your thing on top of it and like, wow, okay. It's very easy to understand. And you want to create those images, those feelings when you're sharing your Call to action. Now, I do. I think my opinions has changed a little bit in here. That simple doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be short. Right? But. And the reason I say it is because there's different levels of intent. Right. If I. Not Everybody's gonna consume 100% of your episode, but if you have somebody that consumes 100% of your episode, I think you can maybe take a risk. And again, it would be a test, right. By sharing a longer call to action that really makes them feel, you know, maybe the pain points, you can probably take more time to highlight some of the pain points that, you know, the other side of the offer, the other side of the call to action is solving. And, you know, they already gave you a lot of time they invested in you that you can probably build rapport with them. Unlike somebody that, you know, they might just consume the first 30% of the episode, you might want your call to action to be shorter in there. So depending on where you place it, I think, you know, simple. I don't necessarily believe that simple has to be short, right? Definitely simple. But then, you know, you can play with it depending on the level of engagement and rapport you build with your audience.

A (20:29)

Man, that's. That's insightful. You've been thinking that for two months while you've been taking off, right? You just been right there, like, rehearsing in the mirror.

B (20:35)

That was my only thought I have for two months.

C (20:37)

Guys, when he comes back to content is profit, we're gonna have some fire content. Just get ready, man.

B (20:42)

So I passed the test.

C (20:44)

Yes. I personally like a lot of personalized domains. So, like, if the domain itself already gives a hint of, like, what's coming, it helps people remember that. So, you know, whether that's like a forward slash or a short domain.

A (20:57)

But so real quick, you actually. Which is the next point. Easy to follow was the next point. And you literally mean the URL that don't like the website that you're sending people to.

C (21:04)

And we can talk about it in detail, please.

A (21:06)

Let's go ahead. This is a good segue.

C (21:07)

But I have a second point too, like with piggybacking of what Fonse said about the end of the episode. I think about the movie, like Marvel movies, right? And they have these like, after credit scenes and the loyal fans, like, stay there and they watch all the credits or they're on their phones watching all the credits and all this. Or they Google, is there an after credit scene?

B (21:25)

Right.

C (21:26)

So you could also pre. You can prepare the audience to something that's coming. Be like, hey guys, by the way, at the end of the episode we have something special surprise that's coming. And you could put it at the beginning of the episode, like, oh, what's coming? So either they listen or they can skip to that where it's like a more detailed stuff. So that could be like a very interesting test that you can do. Imagine a graph at the beginning of the episode, right? The most amount of people, but then maybe the least amount of total listens, you know, for that. And as the episode progresses, that audience is going to go down. Normally that's the graph of the podcast at the end. Those guys are your true fans. It's like, why can't we hide at the end of the episode? That's like a true Easter egg that every single time they come in. I think that will be like a super interesting test to, to perform.

A (22:09)

Dude, that's, that's really smart. I'm actually going to try that one. That's great. I like it.

B (22:12)

Hear me out, Hear me out. A secret portal on your website that requires a secret code, let's say a ten letter word. And throughout a series of ten episodes, you drop the letter, you know, as a secret and people type it. And at the end of the series, if they have the whole word, they get like something cool on the other side of the portal.

A (22:31)

Yo, this is fun. You're gamifying podcast. Come on, that's, that's fun, guys. I like this.

C (22:36)

Thank you. Taylor Swift, she does that across all her albums.

B (22:41)

Just saying. I had no idea.

A (22:42)

I had no idea either.

B (22:43)

I had no idea.

A (22:44)

I'm not a swiftie. I mean, we know you are.

C (22:45)

My wife is a swiftie.

A (22:48)

So. Okay, you kind of already segue, segue to this, this fifth point. Easy to follow. And that's when you mentioned the URL, so. And I didn't mean to cut you off on that. I just want to make sure it's understanding. But go, go ahead, please, please riff on that.

C (22:57)

Yeah, I mean, big fan, right? Like at the end of the day, it's like where we got to put ourselves in the shoes of the people are listening to the podcast. You know, maybe they're listening and they're, they don't have a computer in front of them. Like they, they, they cannot go to the description and click it right. Like think about the people that might be driving. I am a podcast consumer. Every time I'm driving, that's what, what I listen. Right? Or you're doing an activity or you're running or you're exercising, right? Like, what's easy for that person? And I think another good test to do is like, okay, survey your audience. Like, hey, what do you guys listen to my podcast, right? At the end of the day, your email list. Are you listening to my podcast? Where. And then you can find these locations and then you can adapt that. So what I like about domains is like, if you have a simple and sticky domain, people are going to remember that, right? Almost like a jingle, right? Like if you have a jingle, even better with the domain, right? But something like, you know, for us, I think that helped a ton that business, that word, it solves a pain because it's helping people solve that problem. That that's why they come to our podcast. So be like, oh, easy peasy. It's like their website and monetize, right? And then we have another one that we share a little bit later. But I'm a big fan because it's very easy to remember. And then when you get home or whatever, you'll be like, okay, perfect. This guy said that. I'm just going to type it.

B (24:07)

I'm going to go with the example for a main website, bizbros Co. Every time we share, we're like, it's dot co, not dot com noam. You know, like, you have to explain it. And if you have to explain, it's like, it's probably not that simple, you know, to, to follow. We get people that send us email and we never get them because they put dot com at the end, right? So like, can you make something sticky like you mentioned? I like the, the ones that have humor as well, you know, so a little play word or whatever, I think those are fun, but I think they align to your personality, right? If it's somebody that, you know, maybe they don't like to have that much fun on their podcast, you know, they

A (24:42)

might put just something serious Podcast guest

C (24:45)

secret code at the end of the episode dot com. Go there to redeem your secret code at the end of the episode dot com.

A (24:52)

So I like this. I think that we can actually go beyond just the URL. Like I've seen some people do this really successfully from a guesting standpoint with SMS marketing. So text message. So they're like, hey, shoot me a text. And they give them like the quick number. And like, I think that's a really efficient way to do it as well. Like, I'm all for having a great URL as well. Any of that stuff that just someone can remember. And even better if it's reinforced by the content in the episode. Right? Like, if it's already what you're talking about, you're like, man, I can remember that very easily. Real quick. My name's Alex Sanfilippo. I have never told anyone ever to go to alexsanfilippo.com I own the domain. Yes. No one can say it or spell it. That's not a good call to action.

B (25:29)

I still struggle to spell your. Yeah, that's a tough one.

C (25:34)

Yeah. I mean, I think traditional marketing, if you see like billboards and like marketing where attention spans might have to be like, very. Like they're compressed. Like, what are they doing? 1, 800 a word, you know, and like, you're driving by, like, what caught your attention. It's like, how can we model something like that in our shows? Because it's very similar.

B (25:53)

Yeah. I think it goes back to. A confused mind always says no. Right. If. If you have a confusing domain there at the end, you're going to, like, forget about it, you know? So keeping it simple, short, sticky. Simple, short and sticky.

A (26:06)

That's it. I'm gonna move along.

C (26:13)

That's more like a Tinder

A (26:18)

point number six. You all ready? We're gonna bring it back right here.

B (26:21)

Yes, sir.

A (26:22)

So value adding and engaging point number six. And to me, this is what happens when they follow through to the call to action. So this is like where you land, right? So it's like, cool. I like that sticky domain. I like this, this website they sent me to. I like seeing what we've got here. And what's important is when they get there is that they feel that it's continuing to add value on what it already was. Like, you want to see that it's in alignment. You don't want any confusion with, did I just land on the right website? Is this the right place or did I go the wrong place? Like, you want to be like, yep, this is. This is what I just listened to. This is what I just saw. You want to immediately reinforce. The other thing I always say is I don't think immediately it should have anything. It shouldn't require an email address or phone number immediately or credit card, anything like that. Like, there should be some value presented there. Before that happens, I always go back to the example. And I've been married way too long to use this example. I'm gonna do it anyway. Like, if I go to a bar and I wanna. I wanna get a girl's phone number, I don't say, give me your phone. Number, then I'll buy you a drink. Like, at least for me, that would have never worked. For some people, they got it. I don't know. But for me, I would have to be like, here's a drink. Let me talk to you a little bit. Can I get your phone number? Right. I think some of us were like, hey, give us your phone number and then we'll give you some value. And I just don't think that's the way to do it on these pages. You want to reinforce it once again to help somebody know in their mind. I made the right decision coming here today.

C (27:34)

Yeah.

A (27:34)

This is the right decision for me.

C (27:36)

I think that's an interesting idea, especially in our world, because some people might consider.

B (27:40)

Sounds like you asked for the number first. No, no.

C (27:45)

I mean, if you're online dating, you ask for the number first and then you ask them out. Hey, no, thanks. No, but jokes aside, right? Like some people, and this is an interesting debate because some people might consider that the episode was the value. So then people can go to these sites and get it. So like I said, treat it as a hypothesis. What do you do if you have a page with information first, provide a ton of value, and then you ask for that versus what happens if you ask for that information first? Right. And, you know, it all comes down also to you as a creator or as an entrepreneur. Like, are you a value first person? Yes, absolutely. But there's also people that care probably about optimizing this as much as possible. So where do you fall? And it comes down to understanding, like, who you are as a creator or a business owner, or like, what do you want to give? What's the energy that you want to share with the people. But that will be an interesting concept because everything that, you know, at least that we've seen is like, yeah, as soon as the value is, let's say, in the content, let's say you're sharing 100% there, once they get to that page is because they've consumed that, for example. Right. And that's the path. But that would be super interesting to see me, like, perfect. Yeah. I mean, maybe the headlines already providing a ton of value. It's like, hey, click here. You download that if you want the second part. Like, something like, I don't know, that will be like a very cool test.

B (28:59)

Yeah. I mean, to expand on what you said, I agree with what you said that some people might perceive, like, the main episode to be, you know, the main value. And then you want to. You want to build your list and you hear that everywhere, especially red and markets that you want to build your email list if one day Facebook shuts down and you don't have access to anybody else. Like, okay, it's not, it's probably not going to happen 20 years, you know, but at the end of the day it's like what I said at the beginning, every business is different. Like your needs are going to be different. You might be at a stage in your business where you need a high volume of conversations. So maybe your thing is like, hey, do like send me this message and I'll send you the resource for free. You don't need to opt in, but now you have access to that conversation with somebody, right? Or you might be actually in a stage where you are, you know, trying to see if an offer actually works and you know, calls people's attention and you want them to vote with their wallet so you're actually taking them to a sales page of, you know, a low ticket product or something else. Like look into your business, find what are the needs that you have and like make it relevant to that, you know. And I know it's a little contradictory to we're talking about simplicity and you know, not complicate things, make it simple. But I think it all starts by looking a little bit inwards into your business and say, okay, what do I need? What are my needs right here. Can I align my calls to action where I want to lead people to that thing?

C (30:26)

You know what could be an interesting test? Almost like, hey, you know how you get sometimes, like you receive this service and just pay what you want, like donation style. So imagine that as an opt in page and the donation is the email or the phone number. So you put everything optional and be like, hey, just click here. You can download it for free. We're not going to ask for information, but if you want to, if you

B (30:48)

want to get spammed for the rest of your life, put your email here.

C (30:50)

That's it. No, but in all seriousness, right, because like maybe that triggers people to share their information. I don't know. Like that will be super cool to be like, you know, instead of like this being like a must, I get turned off every time I have to put in my phone number form, for example, right?

B (31:06)

I'd be like, yeah, the phone number

C (31:07)

is like, I don't, I don't know if I want this. Right. So that will be also very interesting. Be like perfect. Or donation wise, you can be like,

B (31:13)

if you want, chapter four, put your email in here back to that Chapter four.

A (31:18)

I don't know what it said. I read the book. I read that book. I wanna know, guys, this has been. Here's it. I learned from this today. And that's one of the things I love about you guys. I think that as we kind of bring this thing to a close, like our own call to actions, I feel like we have to have them here. And, like, pressure's on today, by the way. Like, you know, like, pressure on. Like, which one? No, I just mean, like, we just talked about it. But, like, I love the unique mind you guys have. I love the way that you guys approach podcasting. And I'm going to do your call to action for you today, because I think one of those powerful ways for a guest to convert, well, with a call to action is for the host to do it for them. And so hosts, I also think it's a pro move. Like, your listeners know, like, and trust you already. They're just learning that with their. With their guest, maybe you'd be the one. And so, like, I wrote this down here because this is kind of like my thoughts on what you guys do. But you guys have created a community that also focuses on accountability for savvy business creators. Like people that are the podcasters and. Or YouTubers even, I guess. Right? Like both those. Those individuals. Video creators. Yeah. Like the people that are actually creating content and just that. That want access to the mind that you guys have. And so I wrote down the URL. I know it's, like, about to be public, so by the time this is out, it'll be public. So see? No pre order. Right. But it's Business Creator Club. Business Creator Club. And I think what you guys are doing is just like. Like I said, I learned today, like, inside that community, I know there's gonna be so many, like, aha. Moments for people to be able to say, yeah, I'm taking my business to an even savvier level than it already is. Do you guys have anything to add to that before I. Before we end?

C (32:41)

First of all, thank you. Thank you for that. Second, we just hosted our first Our People party. Nice for the club. Yesterday at the time of this recording was awesome. We had about 20 business creators in there. It was a great time. It turned out to be, like, a great networking opportunity for everybody. Everybody said, oh, my God, you leave across me what? Let's connect, let's do some business. So I'm just very excited. This is something new that we've talked about it for, like two years. And thank you for helping Us put it out there.

B (33:07)

Yeah. This is a message, a text message I sent to my brother the other day. And I'm going to actually send it in English. I was going to say I'm going to translate because I send it in Spanish. Says, there's nothing that bothers me more than a course with all info and no action. Right? And I think it's the same with, like, communities and what we're trying to build here, which is not just about information, but help people take the step that they need to take. Because I've been in that position, right, where I love consuming information. I love reading books, I love watching YouTube videos and all these things, but I think I did it for long enough. There's a diminishing return curve to consuming information. At first you start consuming it, you're excited. I can certainly do this. And I think that's the point where you need to start taking action. But a lot of people just keep consuming information, right? And maybe finding out other things, and then all of a sudden you're overwhelmed. Like, this is way too much. Can I actually do that? And then, like, doubt starts creeping in and your bias to take action actually starts decreasing. And then eventually, you just, like, are in a hole down there just consuming information, trying to find that motivation that you had, you know, maybe a couple of years ago, months ago. Whatever time frame it is that you're experiencing, I've been there, you know, So I texted that to my brother the other day. I was like, this is what we need to do. Like, this is what I want the community to be like, you know, the people that we surround ourselves with. Like, I want them to be like, these guys. Sure, they got great info, but they help us take action, right? Like, whatever it is or hypotheses, we're testing them thanks to them or with them, you know, and see if it actually works or not. And helping us grow our business.

A (34:46)

Yeah, that's great. And for the podnash community and podcasting made simple community, we believe the same thing. Action, right? And if anyone's ever heard me speak, even when I do something solo, I'm always looking, like, what's the takeaway that somebody can implement? So after listening this whole idea of call to actions, having it singular, having it focused, everything we talked about, what is your next step? And I encourage you, if you're watching or listening to this, don't you be like, cool, great information. I know what to do. No, no, go do it. Start implementing, start learning, start growing. Luis Fonzie, I appreciate you guys, thank you so, so much for being here today.

C (35:13)

Thank you, Alex. I definitely don't go to alexandfilippo.com please don't.

A (35:18)

Thanks again, guys. I appreciate it.

B (35:19)

Thank you, Alex.

A (35:21)

For more episodes, please visit podmatch.com episodes thank you so much for listening.