Loading summary
Transcript87 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hey, Alex here. Before we get into today's episode, I wanted to invite you to a virtual event that I'm hosting titled Podcasting Made Simple Live. It's for podcast hosts and guests who want to grow their influence, revenue, and expertise on either side of the microphone. To see the details and to get a free ticket, please visit podmatch.com Event tickets are normally $97, but if you enter code PM live, you'll get free VIP access, which is just my way of saying thank you for listening to this podcast. And now let's get into today's episode. You're listening to Podcasting Made simple, everyone. Welcome back to Podcasting Made Simple. I'm your host, Alex Sanfilippo, and I'm joined today by my close friend Tom Rossi. Tom, welcome, man.
- [00:40]
B
Thanks for having me on the show, man.
- [00:42]
A
I'm excited to have you back. I wanted to tell you, this is like a full circle thing for me. So years ago, I started a podcast called Creating a Brand. And for anybody checking this out on the podcast, I Made simple feed, the first 157 episodes will say, like, you're listening to the Creating a Brand podcast. Because I just kept my same feed, right? And, Tom, we met because of that podcast. It was actually a specific episode. We had a mutual friend on dhh, David Handler Hansen. And you emailed me. I was like, just a buzzsprout customer, so customer of Tom's, and he's like, hey, that was a great interview. I'd love to chat with you. Like, no idea this guy is. But I saw, like, founder of buzzsprout. I'm like, oh, no way. Yeah, I want to talk to this guy, right? So we got a call, and you're like, man, I've heard a lot of people interview dhh, but never like, you did. And we kind of, like, built a friendship from there. So, like, this whole thing, like, we're talking about, like, creating a brand that's different today. So it's, like, funny. Like, I purposely put the title of my old show in it, right? But, like, it's kind of full circle because, like, we met through that podcast, and here we are now kind of really talking about how we've both done something different in the podcasting space, both as hosting guests and also software providers in the space. So it's kind of cool, man. We got full circle things for me. Just be able to kind of come back and make this happen.
- [01:44]
B
Yeah, well, thanks for having me.
- [01:45]
A
Yeah, for sure. All right, man. So what I want to get into first is like the setting the stage. First off, for the nine points, we're going to talk about what I'm finding right now. Like, everyone is out there trying to create a brand. Whether you're a podcast guest, podcast host, your show is the brand, your book that you're trying to run is the brand. Your coaching service, just getting your reputation grown, like it's all a brand at the end of the day. Right. And what I'm realizing more than ever is that, man, there's a lot of noise out there and I think that that's been said online for years. Like it's allowed, like being a creator, doing something online, it is noisy and you have to work super hard, like harder than everybody else. Gotta put in more hours, you gotta be everywhere, you gotta be all things, all people. And it's just really hard to get any sort of traction. And like, that really is like the culture of it. But I know that you and I don't believe that that's what it takes to actually build something that's different, that's going to succeed. And so I wanna really just set that, that foundation before you get these nine points. I think maybe the best place for us to start is just give it like a thousand foot overview of, of like where we are at as creators ourselves. Right. Like, you did something that's different, I did something that's different. If you don't mind just like riffing on this point for a minute here before we get into it.
- [02:52]
B
Sure, yeah. I think for us, you know, we got into building software and didn't really think about. I mean, branding marketing really was an afterthought. Like, we want to build something cool, we want to build a cool tool. We want to, we want to solve a problem. We want to build something that address an issue that people are like, oh man, this is great. You know, this solves this thing for me. And I think over time you realize you reach the edges of your ability to be able to grow your market with, with just that approach. Like, you have to, you have to engage, you have to get out there. And we started to get into branding and marketing, but the way that we got into branding and marketing was more along the lines of, who are you? What's working? Who really are you? Rather than who do I need to become to fit this space? And you know, maybe that doesn't work for, for everyone, but for us that's more of what branding has looked like. And I'm not involved in a lot of the branding and marketing, but I am Involved in? Who are we as an organization? Who are we as a company? Why do we do the things that we do? And those. The answer to that question is never because it looks good on our brand or because we're, we want to be true to our brand. No, our brand is, you know, who we are. It's true to who we are, not the other way around. So that's my 10,000 foot view of how we've grown our business and how we kind of think about branding, marketing approach.
- [04:15]
A
Yeah, man. I'll say this about buzzsprout and Tom, founder of buzzsprout. Like, you guys have done a great job making something that feels different to your point. Like, don't get me wrong, like beautiful branding, beautiful. Like marketing is done, like, it's all really high quality in the day. It's the culture that you guys have created. And I think for a software to take on a culture, a feel, take something further than what you just said and that, that's me, is like the definition of a brand is not like your logo, your marketing, your tactics, right? It's more about like, what is the actual look, what's the feeling that somebody gets when they work with it? And that's one of the things that's always stood out to me about you guys. Like, as soon as I found you, I'm like, man, this, this seems different, you know, like, and there was no, like, real reason I didn't know who you guys were. I'm like, something's different about this. And so to quickly share my in the same Thinging, like with PodMatch is funny. Talking about branding and stuff. We didn't even launch with a logo. Like, I was like, I don't know if we need that when we start. And like, people were like, yo, you guys should make a logo, right? It was just text. It literally just said podmatch. But I'm like, we gotta see if this works. And the whole idea was we wanted to make something that would help the people that we knew that we could help. And like, that is what it was born from. And to this day it has stayed that way and it's seen a lot of success, which I'm super grateful for. And it's taken on this personality of its own as well. People join it and they're immediately like, wow, I feel like I'm working with a person not just signing up for another software company, right? And like, that's what we're going for. And that's how I think that we built something that's Different. It's got to be. It's got to have some DNA to it. And so that's what I want to talk about today. And this is a good point for us to kind of transition into the nine points that we're just going to go back and forth on here. But the thing is, again, how do we create something that's different? So podcast guests, podcast host, whatever is behind that, right? If it's growing your show, if it's again, selling more books or getting your name out there more often, like, whatever it might be, how do we do something that's different so we don't have to go into that grind of I need to be online more, I need to be more places, I need to do more faster, right? Like, instead of giving into that culture, how do we go counterculture and just do something that's different? And so what we're going to share today, I'll say this, Tom, like, I'm kind of putting words in your mouth here. I don't mean to, but, like, don't just do what we've done. The idea is to be inspired to do something different that's unique, that's your own, right? Don't be like, oh, they did this right now. Don't. Also, don't just do things like, I'm doing something different because a lot of people say that I'm like, no, you're doing something that's wrong, right?
- [06:24]
B
Like, there's a reason why.
- [06:26]
A
Yeah, there's a reason.
- [06:27]
B
Like, other people are building companies to make a profit. I'm going to build a company to lose money, right?
- [06:31]
A
Like, there's a reason why that's different, but in the wrong way. And so don't, like, don't mimic us word, like, word for word. Be like, okay, I'll do exactly what they did, but pull pieces of it. And know that success leaves clues, but you're going to find your own path ultimately. And so with that said, man, let's just dive into this. So, like, the nine steps for creating a brand that's different. I encourage everyone take notes along the way with this because we're going to go fast. And there's me a lot of really high level points here. The very first one is building on the proper foundation. So number one, building on the proper foundation, to me, the way that I describe this or define it is finding someone you care about and offering a solution to a problem they're struggling with. So someone you care about their problem, you create this solution. What are your thoughts on this whole idea? Of building the proper foundation.
- [07:11]
B
Yeah, I think that's what I love about software development, right? Is we're using software to solve problems. And a lot of times we'll talk about, because we have. The company is higher pixels. We have multiple products. Buzzsprout is just the biggest product that we spend most of our time on, and it was to solve a problem. But we would ask the question. We'd say, well, is this a problem that we can solve? Is this a problem that we can solve with software? If it is, then it's something that we're interested in, you know, possibly building a product around which podcasting was. Right. Like, we can make it. We can make it so much easier for people to be able to, you know, start their podcasting and then eventually even keep podcasting as we, you know, continue to grow the product. So I think there's a lot of. A lot of truth to that, of being able to. Is there a problem that you can solve?
- [07:53]
A
You know, one of the things that I think about is for. For podcast guests and hosts specifically is I hear this term a lot. I wrote it down. It's I'm guesting for me, or I'm creating my podcast for me. And in some ways, like, I respect that. At the same time, like, I don't necessarily always believe it, and I don't call people out one on one when I hear this, but I do hear it a lot. And I think it's kind of like, I feel like that's a way that you're playing it safe by saying that, like, no, I'm just doing it for me, so it doesn't really matter. It's like, okay, well, why is it just not in a notebook then? Like, why is it on the Internet? Like, you clearly care that somebody else would maybe hear it or impact their lives, so own it. Right? And I think that that's, to me, one of the things, like, the proper foundation is not this idea of, like, no, it's just, for me. And it just looked like fun. It just seemed cool. It's gotta go beyond that. It's gotta go to another person. And so for you guys, like a software company, you didn't just say, let's just build fun stuff and see what happens. It was like, no, there's somebody here that I care about. Let's see if we can help them, right? Let's see if we can build something that helps them. And I believe it's the same for anyone getting into podcasting, especially as a host. I'd say, like, Build the show to help somebody build the show to solve a problem for somebody else.
- [08:57]
B
And I frame it always in terms of value, of, like, build something of value. So go. Go back to the way that we. We would build software is we say, is this a problem that we can solve? And then is it valuable to solve this problem? There's problems that you can solve that nobody cares about. My wife is convinced. She wants me to build a. A software to track trains because she doesn't want to get stuck by trains. And I'm like, would you pay for that software? She's like, no, I don't want to build it. That's a problem that, you know, there's. There's not enough value. Is it valuable? Yeah, but it's not valuable enough. And I think it's figuring out what is your value that you're providing. And too often, to your point earlier about podcasters and content creators, a lot of times they downplay the value that they provide, and it's like, no, you wouldn't be sharing it. You wouldn't be recording this. You wouldn't have listeners if it wasn't valuable. And so figure out what is the value that you're providing. Right. There's something there with us in software. It's great because I know exactly what that value is. It's whatever they're willing to pay me for. It's harder when you're in this platform that everyone's downloading things for free, and so they think it's not valuable because it was free. Well, that's not true. It's valuable. And so you, as the creator, really have to get to the place of what is the value that I'm bringing, and then highlighting that value whenever you can. When you're guesting on a podcast, when you're bringing people on, it's like, let me highlight the value that I bring and posing the question to your audience. Right? I hope you get something out of this. I hope that you're finding this valuable. Right? This is why I'm doing it. I'm doing it because I believe it's valuable to you to be able to have this conversation about how your brand can affect your ability to grow your platform. So I think there's. There's something there in terms of value of building it around what is the value that you provide and then using that as part of your brand.
- [10:41]
A
Dude, that. That is so good. That. That's pure gold. Thank you. Pure gold, dude. It really is, man. Like, that's the found. Like, listen, if we get this one wrong. There's a reason we start with building on the proper foundation, right? Like, you get this part wrong. The rest of these points don't really work very well. So that's good, though. I mean, I love that. I think that's really solid. Sake of time. I'll keep on moving here. So number two, next thing is to stay in your lane. So staying in your lane is number two. And I think we live in a world, again, like, we're talking about, like, it's noisy, it's loud, there's shiny objects everywhere. Everyone is just like totally down to, oh, what about this? What about that, right? Like, especially world of AI now, like, man, I know people that used to do one thing and now they're like, and I also develop software, write music. I'm also an author. And there's like a hundred things. I'm like, well, just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. And there's something you said for the people that have the self discipline to stay in their lane. And to me, this is maybe my, like, if I have a superpower, this might be. It is my ability to say no to everything other than what I've said yes to. Thoughts on this point?
- [11:36]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I don't think about it as staying in your lane as much as being focused of, like, what you said. It's saying no. What are you saying no to? Because if you're not saying no to good things, if you don't find yourself saying no to good things, well, then you're saying yes to too many things. There's gotta be some things that you're like, yeah, I could do that, but I'm not gonna do that because I'm focused over here. And whether that's staying in your lane or staying focused, it's this idea of what I'm doing is too important for me to get distracted and go in this other direction, even though this other thing might be good and maybe in the future I would go that direction. But we see it all the time, especially now with, with AI. I mean, just today, one of our competitors, now somebody became a competitor of ours by just saying, oh, yeah, we also do podcast hosting. And I just laugh because I'm like, you have no idea what's involved in that, right? You're just tacking it on to all these other things that you're already offering. And I'm not. I'm not nervous about that. Why? Well, because I know you've just distracted yourself. So now you used to be good at one thing and now you're going to be mediocre. Probably at two things. As opposed to, man, I just want to do one thing really well. And for, for us, for our products, we're always hyper focused on how can, how can we do the thing that we've set out to do. Buzz sprout. It's how do we help people start podcasting and keep podcasting. Anything that's a distraction from that, we would say no to.
- [12:55]
A
Yeah, I feel the same way, man. Like, what is it? Jack of all trades, Master of none? Like, I want to be master of one, right? Like, just like, what's the one thing that people know me for? And I can remember there was a time when I first got into this whole podcasting thing and there was so many, so much opportunity. I mean, we're going back. Like, I got into it for real in 2018 and back then it was like the land of, there was nothing. Land of opportunity, right? And so I'm like, I can do this, this, this, this. And somebody once asked me, like, alex, I just have one question for you. What do you do? Because I'm really confused. And that was kind of my eye opening moment. I was like, oh, they're confused. And I couldn't even list everything off in the next 10 minutes. So now people ask me what I do. I only have one answer, right? Founder of Pod Match. And I'll dive into what that is. That is what I do. And if I'm going to tag anything on it, say, and I also help educate through that lens. And that's, that's it. Like, I keep it really brief and I think that there's something you said to people that will stay focused like
- [13:40]
B
that and think about, think. We've all, we've had these conversations before where you're talking to podcaster. Tell me about your podcast, man. It's me and my buds and we just talk about stuff. And you're like, oh, okay. Like, it's so broad. Like, give me something. Give me something that, that I can get my arms around to understand what it is that you're doing. And so many times in podcasting, you'll have where they're just, they're trying to figure it out. And rather than trying one thing to see if it works and then trying another thing, see if it works, they try to do everything at the same time. There's a, there's a saying I like to, I like to throw around all the time, which is you, you can't chase two rabbits, right? You can chase one rabbit and then you can chase the other rabbit, but you can't chase them both at the same time. And a lot of times I see that in the way that people are creating content.
- [14:22]
A
Yeah. And the same is true for podcast guests. Regularly. Not regularly. I'd say once a month we have somebody email in who's using pod match. Like, hey, I'm not getting any good matches. And we'll look at their profile, but we like to look at their profile first. And we ask, hey, like, why do you feel like you're not getting good matches? Like, well, it's like all kinds of podcast. And in their own, like, I'm not sure you rub, but, like, in their description, in, like, what they want to talk about, they say, I'll talk about anything with anybody. I'm like, well, the system seems to be doing pretty good, you know, like, like, it leads your qualifications, your qualifications perfectly. And they're like, well, I really only want to talk to people that are growing a business from six to seven figures, like a new. Like a newer entrepreneur. I'm like, okay, well, let's direct your profile to that one thing. And then I bet. I bet the system will figure that one out real easily and you'll get on more shows because people are like, oh, I know what this person does. All right, so next up here, this is kind of going right along with that, but it's providing clarity for what you do. Providing clarity. To me, with clarity comes victory. Like, if you want to win at something, it has got to be. It's got to be clear. People have to be able to see it and know exactly what it is. And I have a lot of thoughts on this. Tom, what do you got?
- [15:22]
B
I mean, I feel like this is a late in life learning of mine is just. Clarity is importance in so many different areas in leadership, in the way that we lead our teams. Like, being clear of what is. What are our expectations, Clarity in our relationships with our spouse.
- [15:38]
A
Right.
- [15:38]
B
Like, expectations. And. And just being. Being able to clearly articulate things. And I. And I have to say I am super blessed and fortunate to have a partner, Kevin, co founder, who is so good at all the branding stuff, all the marketing stuff, and bringing clarity to. Okay, what is it that we want to communicate? What is it that we really want to be able to say? And he's really, really good at being able to do that. And we just had a summit where we all got together and he was able to articulate in just one or two sentences, he was able to capture so much clarity around. What is it that when we say we want to help podcasters start podcasting and keep podcasting, what does that mean? And really bringing clarity to that. And I think it helps the whole team, it helps the whole organization to be able to have that kind of clarity.
- [16:25]
A
Yeah, for us, it's the same thing. And for my podcast as well. Like, what is it to podcast about podcasting for people who want to get better at their podcasts around faster? Right. The word podcast isn't a lot. All of it. But the point is, like, no one's ever like, so is it for like, people on YouTube or is it like, is it for anyone creating, like, who is it for? Like, that question never comes up. And the same with, with Pod Match. When I talk about it, same thing. People are like, even at podcast conference, people are like, whoa, I think I need to get better at talking about what I do. Like, it comes up a lot. Not that, like, I figured it out, but. But when you can get those one to two sentences, it means you have extreme clarity on what you do. And for a podcast guest and host, when you've got that level of clarity, you're no longer confusing listeners. They're not like, oh, well, this person does, like, a lot of stuff. Like, let me think, I can remember. No, if it's really simple, they're gonna say, got it. I know what you do, right? Like, that's very, very simple and that's what you want. Like, I think it needs to be simple as well. Like, if it's very complex, it's a lot of words, it's hard for anyone else to follow along with it.
- [17:17]
B
So it's so funny because it's like old school, right? We used to call it an elevator pitch. The idea is if you can't articul and in just a little elevator ride, then you're not going to be able to communicate it clearly to anyone else. And it's just. It's like, we're coming back to that. All you need to be able to articulate it in a succinct way. You know, one sentence, two sentences of what is the value prop? What is the thing that you're trying to do? What is the thing that is so valuable about the time that you're spending being. Being able to articulate that so clear.
- [17:45]
A
Yeah, I think we live in a world again, like, with like, there's this mess up for attention and people want to do everything. We're like, we've turned into Swiss army knives. When people just want One really sharp blade, Right? Like, be the sharp blade, not like the one that can do all the other things. All right, number four, being bold and standing up for what you believe in. This one is, I think, really tough for a lot of people. Like, being bold, standing what you believe in. I actually have struggled with this one before. It's like, I'm naturally a people pleaser. So we're like, oh, what if you do this? Sometimes I have trouble being like, nope, I don't do that. You know, like, I'm getting better at it. I don't know if that comes with age, but for me, like, I've started getting better at it. Maybe caring less, I don't know. Or just being very confident what I do. But this idea of being bold, I think is so important. And so, like, whatever it is that you do, like, truly stand for it, be unapologetic about what you do. Like, that's how you say your one line and then you just be quiet. You don't need to explain it if you're bold about it. Like, if you believe it. Right. Like, I help podcast guests and hosts connect. Done. Like, I don't need to be like. And I do this because. And I started a long time ago and it kind of like turned it, you know, and well, that's kind of all I do. Right. Like, I hear a lot of people fumble in that way.
- [18:47]
B
Or when somebody says, when somebody says to you, oh, yeah, but do you also allow me to record my interviews? And you can be bold and say, no, I help podcasters and podcast guests connect. You know, like, you're able to go back to no, this is the thing that we do. And going back to what, what you started with, the idea of being different. Right. That that's different is being bold and being able to say no to those things. To say no. This is what we're about. That in itself is bold in this culture right now where it's. Everybody's trying to do everything.
- [19:16]
A
Yeah. That example, I've used that with you before. And the truth is, people are like, hey, Pod Notch is cool, but I'm gonna cancel my subscription unless you all start letting me record on the platform as well.
- [19:23]
B
Yeah.
- [19:24]
A
And I just tell them, like, hey, sorry, like, it's just not gonna be the right fit. And like, I feel good about that. Cause I know, I know who I serve. And it's the people who don't feel that they need me to be the all in one solution. And like, so I, I, I love this point. The other thing I. I wrote down this word. It's like being bold is unapologetic about, like, what you do, the value you add, you're confident, you're unapologetic with it, and then also your passion shows. So it goes beyond the words on your website. Like, that one liner is great. Like, figuring that out can really help your brand, your reputation a lot. But being passionate about it and it going beyond just the words that people can. Again, they can feel it. Like, that goes so much further. And Tom, like, I'll give. I'll just. Like, I'll just give you kudos on this one, man. Anytime I hear you speak at the podcasting conference we go to, like, you are passionate about it, like, you want to help people, start podcasting, keep podcasting, and you are devoted to making sure that that happens. And it's not just because I'm like, wow, he said all the right words. Great job. You know, it's like. It's like, dude, if you don't feel convicted by hearing this guy speak, like, maybe we're not listening to the same guy. Right? So I think I've done a great job with this idea of, like, including the passion and what it is that you can feel beyond just what the words say.
- [20:24]
B
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I. I appreciate that. I think there's. You mentioned, you know, your interview with dhh. One of the things that we learned from him was this idea of opinionated software, like, be bold, have an opinion. Like, you might be wrong that you. You shouldn't be a jerk about it, but you should have an opinion. Because if you have an opinion, it provides clarity, it provides direction, all the things that we're talking about. The problem is when you're like, no, I'll be anything to anyone. Well, you have no opinion. There's no direction. There's no clarity. And so I think there's a lot there in terms of just being bold by being able to say these are my opinions about things.
- [21:03]
A
That is a good point. And for both podcast guests and hosts, I can see that being a struggle. Example, if I'm the host, I bring on a guest. Like, if you and I don't agree on something, it's like, all right, do I have a little bit of tension here? And then vice versa. Same thing. If I'm like, oh, I believe in this, and you're like, ah, just won't rock the boat. It's his platform. Right? Like, I've seen that happen. I've been guilty of it as well. But I'll tell you what. My favorite podcast episodes that I listen to are the ones where the guest might be like, I don't actually agree with that. And the host goes, oh, okay, explain then. Right. Like, and giving both people the opportunity to have a stance. As a matter of fact, I can think back to one episode of my show was called Creating a Brand. I had somebody on my podcast. It was about habit forming. We agreed on the idea of habit forming. We did not agree about what was a good habit was a bad habit. He said something he thought was a good habit, and I was. Or no. So I said something was a good habit. I said, it was a bad habit. He's like, no, I think that's a good habit. I was like, no, I don't agree. And like, it was kind of like, back and forth. We argued on almost every point, but it wasn't, like, disrespectful. It was respectful argument, right?
- [21:56]
B
Yes.
- [21:57]
A
Or respectful disagreement would be the right way to say it. And after the episode, I was kind of, like, nervous to post it because I'm like, man, I hope I didn't, like, look bad or make him look bad. Because we just didn't see eye to eye on anything other than the fact that having goals is good, and here's how you set them. Right. And then, to my surprise, I got more emails on that episode than almost any other episode I ever had. People, I'm like, it was really cool to hear two opinions. It helped me form where I stand with this as well, versus just two people being, like, agree a hundred percent with everything you just said. Right? Because reality is, how often does that really happen? And so this is a challenge to the podcast guests and hosts out there that are checking this out. Be willing to be bold, take your stance, and respectfully have a disagreement or something you don't see eye to eye on. Because that's what helps the listener say, okay, I need to form my own opinion here as well.
- [22:36]
B
And so anyway, and it's all connected, right? Everything that we're talking about is all connected, because if you're holding back, you believe that there's something. There's something that should be said here, and I can either say it or not say it, but if you don't say it, then you're not really adding that value that you said you were out to do. You're not really doing the thing that you said, which is, I really want to help people, and in this area, and I'm not helping him if I bite my tongue and I don't say it Right. And so I think it all. It's all related.
- [23:03]
A
Yeah. Okay. Number five, keeping it moving here, taking care of who you serve. This is. This might be my favorite point for everybody in Tom. Like, I love taking care of people, and, like, I think that if anyone's in Pod Match, hopefully that's the very first vibe you get, is that Alex, Alicia, Jesse, the whole team, like, we love to take care of people. And so the first thing that I think about is having a devotion to this, like, internally saying that, like, I'm going to take care of the people that I originally solved this problem for versus just thinking about myself. And I think in many ways, when the numbers start flowing for podcast hosts, right, we see the climb of stats. It takes our mind away from people we're serving sometimes. And we just say, how do I get those numbers to go up faster? Like, how do I get that to keep on climbing at this pace? If you're the guest, it's like, oh, how many shows can I get on Versus Remembering there is one person hearing this, watching this, whatever it is that needs it. Right. And, like, remembering that, like, my first job is to take care of that person who I'm serving. I'm really passionate at this point. I know you guys are as well.
- [23:59]
B
And if you lose sight of it, then you're. You're going to fade out.
- [24:02]
A
Yes.
- [24:02]
B
Right. Because that was originally why you got into it. It was about the person, it was about the. I'm assuming, you know, that you had a valuable thing that you wanted to offer to an audience that you thought you could help going back to, you know, where we started. And so once you get disconnected from that, I mean, we see it all the time in podcasting where they get obsessed about the numbers, and you're like, you're forgetting that those numbers are people. And when you got into it, it was about the message that you were delivering. It wasn't about, you know, hitting refresh on your. On your stats.
- [24:28]
A
Yeah. One of the things I think that's helped us stand out. I think you guys do the same thing, is internally we just say, like, we're going to out serve our competitors. Like, we'll get into competition later here because that is one of our points. But, like, we're going to out serve. Like, we're going to help however we can. We're going to go over and above, even if these people, if we know it's someone we can help, and they still haven't signed up for Pod Match, and they even say, I'm Never going to do it. That's okay. Out of the principle, we are still going to do our part to help. We are still going to do our part to serve them. And we just. We're fine. Like, listen, like, we've got nothing to hide. We got nothing to hold back. If we can help, we're going to help. And again, knowing who our people are, right? If a YouTuber comes up and says, like, how do I get better camera gear? I don't know that lane. That's not my lane. I'm like, sorry, I can't help you there. Right? But if it's my person, whether they want to work with me or not, that's okay. I'm going to show up and serve my best.
- [25:11]
B
Yeah, I think looking for your people, and when you identify that they're not your people, they're not resonating. Like I said, I want to have opinionated software that we believe. For example, I'll give you a great example for buzzsprout. We want it to be very simple. And when we first started, we wanted to make sure that people didn't have to think about audio encoding and what the bit rate should be and all these kind of things. And so we automatically do all that stuff. And we, to this day, we have people that get so mad at us because we do this, they're not our people. If you want to go and set your own bit rates and you want to edit your own audio, and you know, if you want to do those things, you're probably not our people. You're probably not looking for the simple solution that we're providing. Like, you want to go build your own audio, you probably want to build your own RSS feed. We have people that write in and say, I want to go in and edit my RSS feed. Like, you're not, you're not our people. Now, that doesn't mean that we don't serve you. It doesn't mean that we don't like and respect you, but we like you and respect you so much that we'd be like, hey, you should probably go to a different provider. And here are a couple that you might want to think about that would let you do that. And here's why we don't do that. Here's our opinion about why we do the things that we do. But that's such a more. It's bold, but it's respectful. And you're still maintaining your opinions and you're. You're still delivering on value, right? Because the reality is that that Person signs up. I'm not. You're gonna get upset with me. And so I'd rather you go somewhere that you're gonna be happy.
- [26:35]
A
I'm gonna be real, man. I don't know what half those words meant, so.
- [26:37]
B
And most of our customers don't, but they don't understand it.
- [26:39]
A
Right.
- [26:40]
B
So what happens is you'll have somebody who's, you know, an audio engineer, and they're annoyed that we're encoding the audio file and we've made some changes to better accommodate it. But we always want to keep our. Our target audience in mind, which they don't even know what that is.
- [26:54]
A
I'm your target audience. No clue what you're talking about.
- [26:56]
B
You have no idea. When we first. I'll never forget when we first launched Buzzsprout, you know, we had somebody that brought the server down when they uploaded just, you know, a massive gigabyte wav file recording of an audio, which I hadn't expected because I thought, oh, yeah, they're going to upload MP3s. Well, you know, this person they didn't know. And that's exactly who we want to serve as somebody who has no idea that they shouldn't upload, you know, multiple gigabyte file. So anyways, all that to say, I think it's recognizing who your audience is makes it easier. Knowing who your people are makes it easier to be able to serve them. And if they're not your people, you can serve them by helping them find their people, which is, hey, maybe you need to go somewhere else.
- [27:33]
A
Yeah. At the end of the day, we all need to remember that our job is to help someone else on their journey of transformation. We find that little piece of that journey that they're on that we help with. And that is our primary focus. Right. This is what we help that person with. And we keep on moving. Number six remaining. Devoted to consistent efforts. This is where I find most people drop off. This is self discipline. This is where it really comes in. It's this concept of, I'm going to stick with it when it's not working, but I know it's the right direction. I might have to pivot a little bit, maybe have to move a little bit. I have to wait a bit longer, right? Like, I have to keep on going. This is where most people are like, ah, I tried it for two weeks, man. Didn't work.
- [28:09]
B
Right, right. I gave it my best.
- [28:11]
A
I gave it my best. My best for two weeks, right? Like, yeah. And the thing is, the reason that this is Such an important point. Like, who do you know that's so, like super successful that hasn't put in more time than they thought they should? Right. If, if, if took two weeks in podcasting as a guest and host to like make it, there would be tens of millions of podcasters, right? Like, if it was a two week thing and you're like, you're there, you're at the top, everyone would do it. That's just not how it works. No one has had those results. Right. And everyone wants to look at the. The one off outlier. Like, don't get me wrong, there's probably a hundred people that have had that happen before. A hundred out of millions.
- [28:45]
B
Right, right, right.
- [28:46]
A
It just showed up, right place, right time. And if that ever happens to any of us, be grateful, like, be humbled. Because you really didn't do anything to deserve that. It just means you hit the lottery, basically. Right. What it really takes, again, is remaining devoted to consistent efforts to continuously going. Tom, thoughts on this?
- [29:00]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Again, I feel like this is something I'm learning late in life because it applies to all different areas. You think that these big efforts are the things that really pay off, you know, the big swings. Whereas it's really the smaller things that you're doing consistently that you just keep doing it. And then you look back after a year, you look back after two years, you're like, look at the impact that this has had, this little thing that I'm doing. But it would be so easy to just not do it because it's a discipline to keep it up. And so I think it's a huge thing in creating a brand for building a business, for doing a podcast, for enjoying life, is having that element of self discipline, of forcing yourself to do what you don't want to do, to become who you want to be. And that's only gonna happen if you put forth the effort. Like you said, if it was easy, then everybody would do it. Like, everybody would be happy and everything would be perfect. And it's not so. Right.
- [29:53]
A
Yeah, because it would just be a new foundation. Everyone have to work even harder, right? Like stand out again. Like, so the reality is, I mean, having some self discipline is huge. I once saw a picture somebody sent me which was great. It was like, everyone thinks success is like this linear line that just is like from here to here. It's just this success line. The reality of success is it looks like this. It's like scribbles over the page and a little arrow comes out the other end.
- [30:13]
B
Yeah.
- [30:13]
A
And the reality is that's more what it feels like, is it feels that way. And I find that results kick in with. After consistent effort has happened for a period of time. Like, results will follow up, will catch up, but it just. It takes time and it takes discernment as well to know when you need to course correct a little bit. Right. But, like, that point is just. All I like to share with people is just hang on, go further than you think that you need to go for longer. Remember who you're serving. It's not just for you. Be willing to endure a little bit of pain. And I find that, like, you end up creating something that others won't because you're willing to put in the effort that they're not.
- [30:43]
B
Yeah. Think about course correction. You mentioned course correction. Right. We don't want to. We don't want to keep on doing something, just to keep on doing it, but for sure. But we recognize that discipline doing something, even though it might not, even though it might feel like a grind, is still beneficial, but there are opportunities to pivot. And this is something we were talking about the other day of how many people start a podcast, and then either the podcast itself totally changes, or they launch a second podcast. And the second podcast is way more successful than the first. It's because they learn, because they did do those disciplines, they did do the grind, and then they pivoted and they learned, you know, what works. And I think that that's really important for people when they're getting into podcasting. If you go back and you look at whatever your first episode, right. It's going to be your worst episode. And the earlier episodes are always going to be the worst episodes. Why? Because I'm getting better all the time. Well, that. Only it doesn't happen by accident. It happens because you're disciplined and you're always getting better. And so I don't care if you go back to Joe Rogan or whatever podcaster you choose, you go back and look at their earlier episodes, they're not going to be as good. And that should be encouraging to us when we're starting something that we're not going to be as good. But there is the promise that if we are disciplined and we continue to work at our craft, we're going to get better.
- [31:56]
A
So good man. All right, number seven. This is avoiding doing what everyone else is doing. Now, again, success leaves clues. So, like, if there's something we've talked about and you're like, I can't do anything that Tom and Alex talked about it's gotta be different, right? What I'm saying is not, like, don't avoid doing what everyone else is doing that's working, but, like, all the things is what I'm getting at again. And I'm actually gonna give a real life example. One of my wife's friends. I probably shouldn't call her by her real name, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Her name's Ashley, and Ashley is a successful realtor, and she's part of a, like, a really exclusive brokerage. Well, last year she decided their big thing is, like, you got to be active on social media. So they're on. Their teams are on like, two to four hours a day on social media, doing leads, posting, like, all the things, right? And Ashley just decided, like, I hate this, and I don't actually think it works. And so she deleted all of her social media and she goes into a weekly call. It's like, all, all ladies. And the lady who's in charge apparently cusses her out every single week in front of everybody. And it's like, let me tell you how stupid this person is. But guess who the top performing realtor is every single month? Not even a close second place. And it's like, hold on. Now she's mad at her because she's jealous that she's doing something different and working less. And it's working. And that's the reality of it all. Successful realtors say you have to have a social presence. You actually don't. She's texting and calling people and it's working better. She's building real relationships versus, like, hold on, I can't talk to you. I gotta. Gotta post again. Right?
- [33:17]
B
Like.
- [33:17]
A
And so, like, that's just one of many examples. I use social media example because the reality is, the most successful podcasters I know don't use social media at all. Most of them have deleted it. And that's typically my first advice. It's like, oh, man, I got to be on more platforms. I heard that there's this new one called Blue sky. Now I got to be on it, right?
- [33:32]
B
Yes.
- [33:33]
A
No, you're probably going to make worse content because you're trying to make more things. The reality is, if you deleted all that and just worked on building a really, really good show or your guesting efforts, if you just posted all that in one place where you know your ideal listener is going to be, you're going to do better. And I think that so many of us, we just look at, well, everyone else is doing this. So I guess that's what I have to do. And the reality is it's not true.
- [33:55]
B
Yeah. I mean, how many fads have we seen come through podcasting over the years? What was the. What was the online streaming, the live streaming that everybody was jumping on Fireside or it was before Fireside.
- [34:09]
A
Clubhouse.
- [34:10]
B
Yes, Clubhouse. During COVID Right, but to your point,
- [34:13]
A
there's more than one of them, right?
- [34:14]
B
Yeah, Right. But there's these fads that come along where it's like. And then you'll go to a podcasting conference, you'll talk to podcasters, you're like, oh, you got to do this, you got to do this. You got to do this. Because everybody's. Everybody's doing live streaming now. Everybody's doing Clubhouse. You got to have a Clubhouse account. You got to have a blue sky. You got to do this. And it's. I totally resonate with the point that you should ask the question why? Like, I don't know that I really need to do that. And being true to yourself, like you were talking about with. With Ashley, not want. I'm not a social media person. That's not where I connect with people. Now, if you are a social media person, maybe social media works for you, but if you're not, be true to who you are. And the idea of being different is not necessarily being different for the sake of being different, but just recognizing I'm not just going to do something because everybody else is doing it. In fact, in podcasting, a lot of times, you can really outperform others who are following every latest fad by not doing that and just focusing on, you know, what. What works for my audience and talking to your audience and asking them and, you know, being connected with them, I think really helps.
- [35:11]
A
Yeah, I'm really passionate on this point, and I feel like we could both riff on it for a while. I'll just show us about Pod Match. Something we did in 2022 is we decided to go to an all paid platform, no trial or anything like that. And I got beat up about that. Not by Tom, everybody. Tom was very supportive, but by a lot of just different people in this space are like, hey, that's a really stupid decision. Like, you're going to miss out on a ton of people. And I was like, that's fine. But I think the people I serve are okay with it. And what do you know? They are. And it works out really, really well for us. We bring just the right people, the platform. And it has been a really cool thing that to this day is still the number one thing that, like, business coaches, software coaches will email and be like, hey, I can make your company bigger. Offer a free trial. I'm like, it's okay. We don't. It's just not where we're going, right? It's not where we're going. We decided to do something that's different, and it has worked. I mean, I can't even describe how well it has worked for us. And again, I'm not telling you, go do it. So if you're like, oh, I have a free option. Cut it out, that might be the worst decision you can make, right? I knew who I served. I knew what serious podcast guest and host are okay with busting out their wallets right away. And I knew that. And so, like, that was the commitment that we made.
- [36:12]
B
But you see that. You see that when the stream is all going in one direction and you're like, gosh, seems wrong. Maybe I shouldn't do this. And to your point, maybe that's the reason to consider. To do it, right? Just to be different.
- [36:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, number eight. This is innovating and implementing on a continuous basis. So innovating and implementing on a continuous basis. First off, for us podcasters, this is. I'm speaking to the hosts. Do not wait on perfection. Like, if you're waiting till your introduction is perfect or you are editing so much that there is just, like, it might as well be AI, Right? Like, because it's perfect. Like, you're going too far. Like, we've got to be willing to innovate and improve on a continuous basis in production. Meaning, like, we are shipping our creative work. We have it out there to the world. If you're a podcast guest and you're like, well, my empire isn't fully built, so I really shouldn't go on too many shows yet. No, Start now. Talk about you building it. Show people the journey, the process. No one relates to the person who's already got everything. They want to hear the journey of it. And I think that, like, we're software people, right? Like, also. Also podcasters. But, like, the point is, we don't just wait till things are like, okay, this is. This is a slam dunk every time, right? No, if we say, you know what? This probably serves people now. Let's get it out there. Let's do it. Like, we have a spirit of excellence in what we do. Yes, we take pride in it, of course, but we're not going to hold it back. We want it to continue to Go. We want it to continue to help people along the way. You guys have modeled this, I think, better. Like, we learned, like, I'd say podmatch learned this from how you guys run your business. So what are your thoughts on this?
- [37:39]
B
I think that's such an important point, that it should always be getting better. It should always be getting better. And if you, if, as long as you accept that reality, then you're okay releasing something knowing that it could be better. The problem is if you think, no, no, no, I, I've got it as good as it can be, well, then either you waited too long to release whatever it is that you're doing, or you have an unrealistic expectation of what, what it means to, you know, because it can always be improved. It can always be better. And you, you just have to get comfortable with it. And whether it's building software, whether it's recording your first episode of your podcast, you have to be uncomfortable with that first release. You should be, because your expectation is, it's only going to get better after this. I'm only going to be able to do it better the next time.
- [38:22]
A
Yeah. And we've all seen brands out there, whether it be an individual podcast, a company, they're like, their releases are so far and few between. They might be really good, but it creates this disconnect of like, hey, you're like, knock on the door. Anyone there?
- [38:36]
B
Right?
- [38:36]
A
Like, some, some podcasts, they're like, I can only do one episode a month because it takes me 16 hours to edit. Right? It's like, okay, well, maybe your listeners would like more from you. Like, what if you do less time editing and do two a month? Right? Like, and not saying that's the solution here again. Right. But the idea is just we've got to be willing to show people the journey of how we're growing. Like, even as people love that Pod Match isn't perfect. I'll be real people. Like, I love seeing where it's come from. Like, especially the people that have been with us since the beginning. Like, I love being able to, like, know that, like, I've been part of this journey of it improving and growing again. That's a human experience. People love being part of that. It's what makes you different is being
- [39:08]
B
willing to do that and owning it. Like, when it happens of, like, oh, yeah, sorry about that. That was a bug. That was something, you know, people really appreciate that. I always joke with the support team, with Priscilla and her team, that I will roll out a bug just to get Some support interactions because they have such an incredible experience when they write into our buzzsprout support team, like, they just. Like you said, they just care about people, and they just take care of them. And so many people have never experienced that. So I always joke that people are happier if you roll out a bug, they identify the bug, and then you fix it, than if you had never had the bug to begin with, which just seems crazy, but it's true. As long as you handle it correctly. When they identify the bug, you own it, you fix it, and you tell them, hey, thank you so much for reporting it. You know, it's just been fixed. And I just think it's. It's human, it's real, it's on brand. It's all those things, you know, that we want to be.
- [39:58]
A
Right? One of my favorite brands, a really big company, they had a typo in one of their newsletter emails. I read them every day, like, religiously. It was, like, in the title, I was like, oh, that's a type. Like, they messed up. And then, like, 10 minutes later, they said, hey, oops, sorry. Like, I guess it's a good reminder that we're all human. Right? And I never felt more connected to that brand than that moment.
- [40:14]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [40:14]
A
Like, it wasn't perfect. It was messy.
- [40:16]
B
Right. And if the title had been correct and they hadn't sent that second email, you wouldn't have been as connected with the brand as you were after they made the mistake and the way they corrected it.
- [40:24]
A
Right.
- [40:25]
B
There's. There's a principle there.
- [40:26]
A
Right?
- [40:26]
B
Right. Yeah, there's something there for us.
- [40:29]
A
Yeah, that's good, man. All right, this final point here, number nine. This is giving back. Along the way, I've heard so many people say, I'll do more to give back. And I don't just mean financially, but, like, I'll use that as my first example. I'll start giving more money to, like, charities and stuff I believe in when I start making more money. And the truth is, that's a lie. We all know it. If you're making $10 and I ask you to give one, that's easier than saying, hey, make a hundred thousand dollars and give me 10,000. Like, if you think you're gonna become less stingy, like it. That's just. There's nowhere in our lives where that's, like, the case. Like, it's always easier to start that now. And so, again, I'm not just talking about money, your time, the way you serve people, the way you show up, like, find A way to give back along the way. Don't say, well, first I need to finish this, and then I'll start doing that. No, it's going to get harder, not easier. And the reality is, if you don't practice this from day one, you can begin building these bad habits for us both. In the software space, I find a lot of people who start around the same time, I'll say as me, they started seeing some success. I immediately saw pride and greed come in. They had good intentions when they started, but they started doing really well. And then, like, I need. Like, it becomes addictive. I need more. And it's because they lost focus of I'm actually serving somebody else by doing this. I'm not saying give up all your profit or anything like that. Right. But, like, in some way, there needs to be a practice that you put in where you're remembering, I'm doing this for somebody else. I'm remembering that. So when the download numbers increase to a certain point, you're like, wow, I'm too good to talk to my listeners. Right, Right. We've seen that happen. Some people make it, they're like, ah, man, I don't want to go to podcast conference. Everyone just wants to talk to me. I'm like, oh, you did the poor thing. Yeah, you poor. I'm so sorry. Right. Like, and podcast. Guess I think I won't go on that show anymore. I've already. I've achieved too much. You know, it's like, okay, like, the second you hit that point, you've already started your descent. You might just not see it yet.
- [42:07]
B
Yeah, I think it all goes back to pride. Like, there has to be a humility that in whatever success you're experiencing, that there was some element that was outside of your control, there was something that benefited you. And if you're honest, it wasn't all you. Right. And if you can get to that place, then it makes it much easier to develop that discipline of being generous and with your time, with your money, with the. Your. With your content. Like, it can make that so much easier if you are humble in recognizing, man, I did a great thing. Like, don't take away. I made an incredible episode. This episode. Oh, is best episode I've recorded. But the reality is it's been, you know, all this discipline getting me up to this point, and the fact that I was guested on this other podcast and doubled my audience. And, like, there's a humility that comes from. I didn't do it all on my own. There was these Other people that helped me, that showed me which equipment to buy. And, you know, there's. There's all these different. Different things that accounted for that squiggly line turning into that success on the other side. And I think there's. If you can identify that, the humility associated with that, if you can get to that place of recognizing the grace that you've received, it makes it so much easier to be able to give back and you start to look for opportunities. One of my favorite authors is a guy named Brandon Sanderson, and I love. He basically got his breakthrough because another author had passed away, but he'd start a series, and his wife chose Brandon Sanderson to finish his series. Well, next thing you know, he goes from just being an author who had a following to inheriting a series that was already started and massively popular. And so now, to this day, you see Brandon Sanderson, who's now massively popular, pulling other authors up with him, right? Where he's highlighting their books, where he's starting series and then letting them finish the series. Like, it's just. It's so. It's such a person who's connected with the humility of the success that they've experienced. And we can do that as podcasters by going and being on another podcast. Well, I hear it all the time. Well, I won't go on a show if it doesn't have, you know, it has to have at least this number of listeners. Well, man, there was a time when you didn't have that number of listeners, right? I'm not saying you should go on every show, but there is a humility that comes from recognizing that, you know.
- [44:22]
A
Yeah, man, that's so good, Tom, man, we're at time. I've really enjoyed this today, man. Do you have any, like, final thought for us before we get out of here?
- [44:28]
B
Thanks for having me. This is. I mean, it's a fun conversation. I love this stuff.
- [44:31]
A
Yeah, man, this was great, dude. I really. Again, you've paved the way in podcasting for Pod Match for me personally, so. And been a great friend of me. So again, thank you for being here, and I appreciate everyone for checking this out. It's been fun. This is like a passion thing for both of us. We'll talk about. So I hope this was really helpful for you. And thanks again for spending this time with us. For more episodes, please visit podmatch.com episodes thank you so much for listening.