487: Decluttering (not Organizing) the Calendar

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 487 – Decluttering (Not Organizing) the Calendar

Podcast: Dana K. White: A Slob Comes Clean
Host: Dana K. White
Guest: Beth (Mental Health Professional)
Date: December 4, 2025
Main Theme: Applying decluttering principles to the calendar and schedule, not just physical spaces.

---

Overview

This episode explores how the concept of decluttering—letting go of what isn’t serving you—can apply to managing our calendars and schedules, not just our environments. Host Dana K. White and guest Beth, a busy mental health professional and mother, discuss how overcommitment affects home life, relaxation, and the possibility of meaningful decluttering at home. They work through how Dana’s “five-step decluttering process” translates to time management, focusing on removing obligations before trying to organize or structure the remaining time.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reality of an Overwhelmed Schedule

• Beth shares her life situation: She, her husband, and their 18-year-old all have ADHD, work long hours, and are rarely home except to crash. The home suffers from “dump and dash” routines and little motivation for organizing or deep cleaning.
  • Quote [02:16, Beth]: “We are never here or when we are, we're kind of crashed out mostly...But it also makes it hard to relax.”

2. What’s Working Well?

• Beth’s workspaces are decluttered: Her university office is functional, and she’s able to maintain it using Dana’s methods. At home, she struggles much more.
  • Quote [03:29, Beth]: “In my office, I actually am pretty decluttered. Pretty. The space is really functional.”
• She follows the “five steps” for decluttering but often stops short of fully putting things away (“take it there now” step), resulting in clutter migrating but not disappearing.
  • Quote [04:36, Beth]: “I carry a big pile of things downstairs … and then I just toss them onto the couch and they don't make it into the bureau and then they sit…”

3. Translating Decluttering to the Calendar

• Beth’s main question: How can Dana’s decluttering method apply to time and obligations, not just stuff?
• Dana reframes "organizing" time: “Structure” is to time as “organize” is to space—but decluttering must come first.
  • Quote [08:15, Dana]: “The difference between decluttering and organizing and how important it is to separate those two things and to say, for now I am going to just declutter.”

Applying the Five-Step Process to the Calendar

• Don’t focus on "structuring" or "organizing" your calendar until you remove the obvious “trash” (unnecessary commitments).
• Start by identifying the “trash” on the calendar: things you don’t need to do, don’t want to do, or are only doing out of habit or guilt.
  • Quote [09:55, Dana]: “Yes, the container of it is an issue. But before we even think about that, I would say let's look at the calendar and say, is there any trash?”

4. Concrete Example: Removing “Calendar Trash”

• Beth shares that she was able to finally step down from advising a club—that was “trash” on her calendar.

  • Quote [10:39, Beth]: “…I was advising a club… I've been trying to get out of it for like a year and a half and I finally was like, no, this is trash.”

• Meetings that are non-core or could easily be missed for urgent client needs can also be labeled “trash.”

  • The mental load of being “on” committees you’re never present for brings guilt but little benefit.
  • Quote [13:05, Dana]: “The only purpose you being on that committee is serving is space in your brain that you're feeling guilty about.”

• Do the easy things first: “Trash” obligations can sometimes be removed with one email—yielding outsized mental relief for minimal effort.

  • Quote [14:38, Dana]: “It could even be a copy and pasted email sent to five different things…biggest brain space freed.”

5. The Power of Decluttering Time

• Eliminating just three unnecessary meetings a week can reclaim 12 hours a month or 144 a year.

  • Quote [18:09, Dana]: “You are literally talking about 12 hours of your life that you will get back in five minutes…”

• Beth notices that decluttering her email inbox (by quickly deleting irrelevant messages) brings similar relief and time savings.

6. The Emotional & Identity Challenge

• Dana and Beth discuss the “Hero Complex”—it feels good to be wanted and involved, which feeds a reluctance to step back, but letting go creates opportunities for others.
  • Quote [26:22, Dana]: “…me not doing it means someone else is going to have to figure out how to do it. And that's highly beneficial for them.”
  • Quote [29:18, Beth]: “…there are things I'm doing that a younger staff member, a younger faculty member would benefit from the learning of doing.”

7. Continuing the Decluttering Process

• Once the “trash” is gone, look for the “easy” to delegate or offload obligations—tasks where the letting go process is nearly complete, e.g., transferring a recurring training session to junior staff.

  • Documenting processes now saves much more time later.
  • Quote [33:27, Beth]: “It would be investing probably two to four more hours, and then it would be taking…15 or 20 off of my plate.”

• Dana hammers home: focus on decluttering your calendar before trying to organize what's left.

  • Quote [34:47, Dana]: “Zero in on the decluttering of the calendar and you do the trash first… then you do this easy stuff… and then you, you know, maybe the donations is some of the stuff where you do have to pick someone to take over something…”

8. Prioritizing Decluttering Physical Spaces at Home

• Beth asks if she has to start decluttering in the “most visible space.” Dana says any decluttering is good, but starting with visible/common areas (even if just family-visible) builds momentum and eases daily life.
  • Quote [37:30, Dana]: “Anywhere you declutter is great. That is the value of the visibility rule: it gives you a place to start. But if you want to start in your living room, go for it.”

9. Most Common Derailler: Skipping “Take It There Now”

• Beth asks for the most common reason people get off track. Dana is emphatic: people often skip the "take it there now" step—intending to move items later but never doing it, so the clutter simply shifts rather than disappears.
  • Quote [42:33, Dana]: “I think it is when people ignore the take it there now… it is the thing that guarantees actual real progress…”

10. ADHD, Execution, and Strategies

• Beth and Dana bond over ADHD realities:

  • Getting distracted on the way to put something away
  • The importance of immediate action to minimize distraction and lost items
  • Using reminders and external cues as “take it there now” strategies

• Quote [46:50, Beth]: “That's exactly the thing that gets me to never declutter is I'm terrified of that. Because it's always happens. Right?”

11. Advice for Launching an 18-Year-Old

• Go minimal when packing for dorm life—don’t saddle new adults with extra stuff.
• Make them do their own packing so they know what they have and can learn self-sufficiency.
  • Quote [50:21, Dana]: “I think going as minimal as possible in packing to live in a dorm…”
  • Story [51:14+, Dana]: When she packed for her son, he didn’t even know what he had, resulting in problems during a power outage.

12. The Value of Community

• Beth loves the “kindred spirits” Patreon group: the sense of not being alone in the struggle, a nonjudgmental space for people naturally disinclined to organize, and mutual support.
  • Quote [53:46, Beth]: “I work with so many people…they have no tools. And your tools are really important tools…just having a community of people that, like, totally get it.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [09:55, Dana]: “Before we even think about [structuring time], I would say let's look at the calendar and say, is there any trash?”
• [13:05, Dana]: “The only purpose you being on that committee is serving is space in your brain that you're feeling guilty about.”
• [18:09, Dana]: “You are literally talking about 12 hours of your life that you will get back in five minutes because you can send the same email to three different people and you immediately get 12 hours a month.”
• [26:22, Dana]: “Me not doing it means someone else is going to have to figure out how to do it. And that's highly beneficial for them.”
• [42:33, Dana]: “I think it is when people ignore the take it there now. And I completely understand the desire to ignore that because I hate it, too.”

---

Important Timestamps

• 02:16 – Beth describes family, work, and ADHD context
• 04:36 – Beth describes partial success with Dana’s decluttering “five steps”
• 08:15 – Dana discusses the conceptual difference between decluttering and organizing time
• 09:55 – Dana introduces removing “calendar trash”
• 10:39 – Beth shares her first experience applying the method (stepping down from club advising)
• 18:09 – Dana calculates the impact of removing just 3 meetings per week
• 26:22 – Discussion on “hero complex” and letting others step in
• 33:27 – Beth discusses delegating and documenting work for administrative assistant
• 34:47 – Dana recaps process of decluttering calendar before “organizing” it
• 37:30 – Dana gives permission to declutter any space that matters
• 42:33 – The most common derailer: skipping “take it there now”
• 50:21 – Dana’s advice about letting 18-year-olds pack for themselves

---

Tone

The episode is marked by warmth, relatability, humor, and a gentle, reality-based approach. Both Dana and Beth speak openly about their struggles and practical adaptations for ADHD and overwhelmed lives, making the conversation accessible and validating for listeners who feel similarly overwhelmed by both stuff and schedules.

---

Takeaways for Listeners

• Decluttering is a mindset you can apply to commitments and time as well as physical stuff.
• Always focus on removing (decluttering) before organizing (“structuring”)—with time, get rid of the “trash” obligations first.
• There is tangible relief and reclaimed energy in even small acts of letting go.
• It’s okay (and necessary!) to pass on roles and obligations to make space for others—and for yourself.
• Sticking to the execution steps, especially “take it there now,” is crucial for lasting progress.
• You are not alone; communities exist for people struggling with clutter—mentally and physically.

---

For more of Dana’s tools and supportive communities, check out her Patreon (Kindred Spirits) and her courses (links in episode description).

Transcript

[A]

Y', all, the Take youe House Back course is on sale right now. If you want to make major changes in your home in the new year, grab this course now. So I teach this course with dawn from the Minimal mom and Cass from Clutterbug. We have a lot of fun there. But most importantly, people take their houses back even after years of struggling. Tens of thousands of people have gone through this course and absolutely love it. To learn more and grab it while it's on sale, go to aslob comes clean.com take that's aslobcomesclean.com to get it while it's on sale for $94. Welcome to a Slob Comes Clean, the podcast. I am Dani K. White. I share my personal deslobification process as I figure out ways to keep my own home under control. I share the truth about cleaning and organizing strategies that actually work in real life for real people. People who don't love cleaning and organizing. Thanks for joining me today. This is podcast number 487 and I think I'm going to call it decluttering, not Organizing the Calendar. So I am talking to Beth. She is one of my kindred spirits. If you want to know more about being a member of my Patreon community that we call ourselves the Kindred Spirits, you can go to patreon.com A slob comes clean. But this is a great conversation. Beth is a mental health professional. She is very, very busy and she lives in a family of people who are also very busy. So we talk about lots of things, but one of the things that we really dive in on is the reality of your schedule and talking about time and decluttering, not organizing or at least decluttering first before organizing the time. So I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. Don't forget, Take youe House Back is on sale right now. The link is in the show notes. For this you can go to a slob comes clean.com take all right, here you go. Here's my conversation with Beth. Beth, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to get to talk to you.

[B]

I am excited too. This is cool.

[A]

This is really fun. So tell me a little bit about your unique life situation.

[B]

So My child is 18 and a senior in high school and has ADHD. I have ADHD and work about 60 hours a week. My husband has ADHD and also works an insane amount. We are never here or when we are, we're kind of crashed out mostly. And that's actually part of what I want to talk about is sort of we, we don't have people over much because we're really very rarely here. We're off out doing our thing. We all have very strong commitments to the lives that we live and the professions that we're in or the professions we're aspiring to be in. And so we're doing that a lot of the time. But that also means we like dash in, dash out, drop things, grab things, and then when we get home and we're exhausted, the last thing that we want to do is organize. But it also makes it hard to relax.

[A]

Yeah, no, I think that's, that's very understandable. Very understandable. So let's talk first about what is working well for you.

[B]

Actually, I think what's working really well for me is in my office, I actually am pretty decluttered. Pretty. The space is really functional. There's. There's a closet that is not. But basically I dip in there and get my diet Pepsi out of the little mini fridge and otherwise that's sort of. That is the one cluttered part of my office. But my office actually I like applied your stuff and it's really easy to keep it under control.

[A]

Is this a work from home office?

[B]

No, this is an office at the university where I run the counseling part of the wellness center.

[A]

Ah, got it.

[B]

Okay. So that office is. Is totally organized. I have a private practice office that I sublet. So nothing of mine stays there except this tiny little file box with a few things locked in it. So that space isn't an issue. But home is nuts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. What is something else that's working?

[B]

Well.

I think I'm really good at following the five steps. When I'm formally decluttering, I'm less good. The take it there. Now if I would just do it at other times would help a lot. But I take it close.

And then don't do the extra steps of, you know, if there's folding or opening a drawer or whatever. I carry a big pile of things downstairs to where they need to get put away. But it's 11:30 at night or midnight, and I just toss them onto the couch and they don't make it into the bureau and then they sit on the couch till I wear them.

[A]

Do you do five minute pickups ever?

[B]

Sometimes, yes. And usually in the. I have a mom cave that I call it. I'm very likely to do a five minute pickup in that space. I'm very likely to do five minute pickups in.

The dining room if we want to eat at the table. I am very likely to do a five minute pickup in the bathroom. That is my kid's bathroom and the guest bathroom. And actually all summer when my kid was away working at a summer camp, that room was always immaculate actually, because I had very carefully made it so that really all I had to do was wipe things down and it was clean again. That has devolved somewhat since the child returned to the home.

[A]

Understandable, for sure. Totally understandable. This episode is brought to you by Gab. The holidays are coming fast, just like they do every single year. And kids are making their wish lists just like they do every year. If a smartphone is on that list, you're going to want to know about Gab. Gab offers phones and watches made just for kids. No Internet, no social media, and just the right features for their age. Kids want phones to feel independent and connected. Parents want to know their kids are safe. With Gab, you can have both. My kids were so excited when they got their first phones. But keeping the phone safe was very stressful for us as parents. I wished for a phone exactly like Gab. A phone that had only the basics until they were ready for a little more. With Gab's tech in steps approach, kids get the right tech at the right time. From watches with GPS tracking to the perfect first phone with no Internet or social media to the teen phone with parent approved apps. So get ready for squeals of delight Christmas morning. If you decide it's time for their first phone, it's a gift for you. Knowing these kidsafe phones bring peace of mind. Visit gab.com slob and use code slob for a special holiday offer. That's G A B B.com slob gab tech in steps. Independence for them. Peace of mind for you. Okay, so sounds like we've got a lot of things to talk about, but specifically, what questions do you want me address?

[B]

Well, so one of them was actually about, I think about, so how would your system translate to my calendar? Because I think part of what I really need to declutter is my schedule. Because I do try to do more than 24 hours of things in each 24 hour day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And if I would pull some things out of that and structure that a little bit better, I would then have time and energy maybe to do some of the physical decluttering someplace other than the office.

[A]

So I heard you say the word structure, which I feel could be. This is off the top of my head, but I feel that that could be an equivalent word to organizing. If we're talking time versus things, right. And we've talked, you, you know, because you know my process, the difference between decluttering and organizing and how important it is to separate those two things and to say, for now I am going to just declutter.

[B]

Right. And I think for me, when I think about the structure, it's more like I have to figure out how big the container is for work and how big the container is for the private practice and maybe try to think about what that would look like in time.

[A]

Still though.

[B]

Yes, still need to declutter.

[A]

Right, Exactly. So like if we're, if we're comparing, like how would we tackle physical space with the five step process versus how are we going to take that five step process and declutter your calendar? Even then, you know, because you listen, I am really big on let's don't worry about the container until we've gotten rid of the trash and the easy stuff and the obvious donations. So it almost feels like that's what's going on here too. Because you're, because you do have so much going on and you are doing good work and work that you are passionate about and that is desperately needed and could and would take as much of your time as you're willing to, to give it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so because you have that heart to help people, they're going to keep taking time. And so there do have to be boundaries around that. So yes, the container of it is an issue. But before we even think about that, I would say let's look at the calendar and say, is there any trash? Is there anything that I am doing.

That I don't have to do? Not even that I could do in a different way that I could outsource. Is there just anything that, that literally without having to make a hard decision, it's just a matter of, oh, I can let that go. Do you, can you think of anything?

[B]

So I did that with one thing because I was already starting to think of it. I was advising a club on campus that I was kind of co advising it. And I've been trying to get out of it for like a year and a half and I finally was like, no, this is trash. It's. Or at least it's donate. It's a DA donation and I wanted to donate it to anyone else. So I did that. And I think there are some meetings that if there is ever like a client needs a spot and I'm usually, because I'm the boss boss, I try to save some space and at this time of the semester, any of the walk in crisis people, I'm the only one who hasn't already got a scheduled client, But I probably do have a meeting. And it's really easy for me to say, kelsey, put that student here. I just won't go to that meeting. And that meeting gets really easily jettisoned because it's not the center core thing that I do, and it's certainly less important than that student in a crisis. And so I definitely can get rid of that craft. That trash.

[A]

Is that meeting something you could say no to from the beginning?

Maybe.

We'Re gonna assume your boss is not listening, but.

[B]

No, actually, my boss would be fine with it. Honestly. I mean, yes. Somebody actually said to me in the parking lot the other day when I said, sorry, I'm not going to be at this meeting. We put a student there. And she said, I don't know how you have time to be on any committees. And I said, well, I don't. So, you know, maybe I just say it's not realistic for me to be on these committees because I have to be available to catch the crises.

[A]

Well, and we are talking in November right now, so I'm assuming your semester is coming to an end in the next month or so.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so do you have the opportunity to say, I am not going to be on such and such committee next semester, or do you have to wait another year?

[B]

Yeah, I probably could. I probably could. I could probably do that with some of those things, because the reality is I'm never there anyway. And there are some other things like that that I could probably say, look, you know, in a perfect world, I would absolutely do this.

[A]

Well, and what you just said of you're never there anyway.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Means that the only purpose you being on that committee is serving is space in your brain that you're feeling guilty about.

[B]

Yes, yes, absolutely. And, you know, there are other things that, like, I would love to be. Do you know what Rock Voices is? Mm. It's just this no audition, like, national choir that does rock music, and they do, like, a concert every semester. And I love to sing, but, you know, I signed up for that and then immediately went, nope, never mind. No way. So that was a trash thing. Like, I can sometimes find the trash. I think I'm more likely in my world to have, like, dud donations or there's no place to put it.

[A]

And that all. That all is very true. But you've also just named off a bunch of trash.

[B]

Yeah, I did.

[A]

And so, because you when you took a moment to go trash. Because. Because there are dud donations and I'm. I'm thinking of those. And maybe you're thinking of it this way too. Of things that really are important and they can't just be let go. They do have to be passed on to someone else. Correct. So there is another step. But the trash ones sound like. And we're not saying they're not valuable. That's not at all what we're saying.

[B]

Right. It's not that.

[A]

But they sound like there's something that could be a single email.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it could even be a copy and pasted email sent to five different things.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it's really that, like, lowest effort expended, biggest brain space freed.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Is. Is the trash thing. So. So what I would say, and I know we're going to talk through this, but what I would say is do those first.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Go ahead and do those first. Simply for the brain space that they're going to free.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which here I am talking to you and you are the counselor.

[B]

No, no, go for it. Because we're not good at doing the things on ourselves.

Tell anybody else this.

[A]

But. But that's the thing is you. You. What I see in your brain is that you are. You are continually jumping ahead to all of the other things I'm going to have to do.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which are legitimate. They are there. They exist. There are so many things to make decisions about. And yet this is something that could be done and over with in literally five minutes.

Yeah. So. So going ahead and doing that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because of the, the way it's going to lift pressure that you don't even know. Like, I know for me. And you're a counselor, so I'm not going to use you for counseling right now. But no, I literally last week I had turned in my book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And probably. Thank you.

[B]

Like, oh, my God, I'm so psyched for that book.

[A]

I turned it in in early October. No, early to mid October. I can't even. Mid October, October 15th, I think it was. And I knew I was supposed to get edits back last week and I got them back on Thursday morning and I went and read through because that's what I've learned I have to do. I just have to go through and read. And I, I. The email that the editor sent was very positive. But I went and read through the comments and like, I could not believe how different my body felt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

After I got the. You're good. Like, yes, of course there's. There's work to be done. But like, all of this tension I didn't even know I was holding in my. She's nodding, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

So this is not my mental health stuff. This is hers. But anyway.

[B]

And I am nodding.

But you know what I mean?

[A]

But it was like. And I think that that's. That thing is like, we, you know, there are things we don't know, that they are weighing on our minds and our bodies. And so for those things to be gone has so much value in and of itself for those things to be gone. So that anytime you find. Yes, but there's also going to be this that I'll need to do. But that's not what we're worrying about right now. Going ahead and doing the thing that you immediately. Like, I could see you ticking off in your brain. How. How many would you say? How many meetings could you eliminate?

[B]

Probably at least three a week.

[A]

Three a week.

[B]

Three a week. I know that doesn't sound like a lot.

[A]

That sounds like a ton.

[B]

Sounds like a lot for somebody who's.

[A]

Already working 60 hours.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Three. If you eliminate three meetings a week times four weeks, a month. Which sometimes the months have more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You are literally talking about 12 hours.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of your life that you will get back in five minutes because you can send the same email to three different people and you immediately get 12 hours a month.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which multiplying that by the year is.

One hundred and something.

[B]

Yes. 144.

[A]

That's what it is. 144 hours.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's like. That's a lot of.

[B]

Yeah. Like more than three. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Well, and then. And then the thing that happens, as you know, is once you do that, then you start looking at other things differently and you go, well, that was worth it. That wasn't painful. Or even if it was painful, it was worth the pain. And. And therefore all these other things are going to start to look different to you. Because I think what. What I'm hearing you say is, you know, your day is a container. You know, the 24 hour thing. You know all of that. And yet you're trying to do that container stuff before you've gotten rid of the trash.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which makes you're trying to fit what is in front of you and then talk about the container as opposed to let's get the stuff that has no business being there out before I even start thinking about the container.

[B]

Yeah. And I think I have done it in little ways like my email. I have gotten pretty ruthless at Making a first pass because all I have to be is out for one day and then I cannot get through the email in a day. But I've gotten really ruthless at the very first step is to scan down and delete anything that I can delete. And the categories of trash have definitely gotten bigger. The things that I would have kept and thought about or the things that I would have stored for reference later, there's a lot more that is just getting out of there because there's something deeply, deeply stress reducing about getting the ones that I have to deal with done and seeing it empty. Which, you know, there are like a million old emails that are in a. Like maybe I have to weed through these later. But they're old at this point. They're not. I mean if anything important's in them, I'll find it by searching. But at this point I am. And that saves a ton of time because I'm not reading or all the ones that I've just clicked and, and gotten rid of. Even if it might be a wonderful continuing ed opportunity or people that want to collaborate with us when I know that I don't have time to meet with them to figure out how to collaborate with them. It's just, I'm not even writing them back politely. It's just going because they're marketing to everyone. Right. Like they don't actually care about our college.

Business. Right.

[A]

We're nice people. Like I, I want to send an email back to everybody.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

But that is not realistic. Like it is not humanly possible. And do it. Does it hurt a little bit? It does. But the freedom of giving myself permission based on having done things the hard way way too many times and realizing I don't have no, this is absolutely worth it for me to not do that.

[B]

I am never going to read the university Senate minutes or agenda ever. So why do I keep them? Like just need to not. I need to not even be tempted to look at them because it stresses me out. Yeah.

[A]

When choosing gifts for everyone on my list, I want to give things that people really love because I know that Quints offers beautiful, timeless pieces they'll wear for years. It's one of my favorite places to shop. Everything I've ordered has been been so well made and comfortable. It's premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. They have classic pieces like the stretch silk tank that I recently ordered. You know how you want the perfect fit for an item like that? This tank has that perfect fit and it feels luxurious. I've given quite a few gifts from Quint. Their down outerwear pieces make amazing gifts for my family members who live in cold climates. Perfect for upgrading my own wardrobe too. Quint works directly with ethical top tier factories, skipping the middlemen and offering prices 50% less than similar brands. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quint. Go to quint.comclean for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.comcleclean to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.comclean this podcast is sponsored by Prep Dish Juggling holiday parties, programs and gatherings can make it tough to find the time to do everyday tasks like getting meals on the table. That is why I love Prep Dish. This weekly meal planning service takes all the thinking out of dinner. Each week I receive a full menu with seasonal recipes. Right now, the Cozy Stews sheet pan meals are hearty and they're easy. Along with the menu, get a grocery list and easy prep ahead instructions delivered to my inbox. Over the weekend, I can spend an hour or two prepping meals for the week and then it only takes minutes to get each of the delicious dinners on the table all week long. I'm really excited about Prep Dish's newest feature so you can connect the grocery list directly with Instacart, creating an online cart automatically. I love that I can change out brands, add snacks and check out without leaving the house. The food is healthy and yummy like the ground turkey zucchini and Mushroom Quinoa bowl with Lemon Herb dressing. Last week you can try Prep dish free for two [e-mail] a slob comes clean that's prepdish.com a slob Comes Clean it's like hitting the easy button on winter dinners. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For a lot of us, the holidays are all about family traditions. Sometimes those traditions can be a little stressful, or the lack of traditions can make us feel lonely. Better Help Online therapy can help wrap up the year with clarity rather than chaos. So with family traditions come my expectations for family members and their expectations for me. I have found it so helpful to talk through these kinds of expectations with my therapist. If you or someone you know might benefit from connecting with a therapist during these darker days, consider better Help. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, serving over 5 million people globally. They have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews this December. Start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% [e-mail] clean. That's better. H lp.com clean. So the next thing in your schedule.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would be. So the first thing is get those emails sent and say, hey, I'm gonna not do this. The other thing I want to talk about real quick that I tend. That tends to be an issue for people like us is our hero complexes.

[B]

Yes. There might be a little bit of.

[A]

That, because I can totally. I mean, I'm sitting here talking to you, and you are bright and fun and intelligent and like, so much fun to be around. I can absolutely see why every new club, every whatever is like, do you know who we need? That's who we need. She would be so fun. She gets things done and blah, blah. And so that becomes a part of our identity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we also know because you're in an educational setting that me not doing it means someone else is going to have to figure out how to do it. And that's highly beneficial for them.

[B]

That's true. Ooh, nice reframe. You're going to trade jobs with me. Nice reframe. But it's beneficial for them to. Look, someone needs to learn to be the secretary of the manager and supervisors union.

[A]

I mean, you know, because you work with students. I literally was having this conversation with a friend of mine who both of us were in the theater department in college together, and we had this conversation about how each of us sees the moment when we were the stage manager of a big production as an actual turning point in our lives. We both look back and go, I didn't know I could do that. I didn't ask to be stage manager. I didn't want to be stage manager. I was stage manager for a play called Shadowlands that had like over 50 scene changes and it had to be completely quiet and we had to do like, it was bananas. But this thing came out in me. And so you're working with college students who somebody picking up the slack is going to be. So it could. It could literally change lives for you to.

[B]

Yes. Some of my responsibilities, other responsibilities have to go. Very burned out. Staff, of course.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Still, it doesn't have to be me. And yeah, somebody younger might benefit from. I mean, come on. I, like, I'm old enough that a lot of these roles should go to people who want to learn leadership skills. I've been around the block a few Times. Yeah.

[A]

So, no, I'm, I'm. Yeah. I'm guessing we're similar ages.

[B]

I think we are. Just from the books and stuff.

[A]

Yeah. And that is, that is actually something I've really become passionate about in the last couple years is I'm like, oh, I need to not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do this thing because. Because here's the other thing. Okay. So what I'm talking about. I know here I, I feel like all your counselor stuff is coming out and I know, I'm sure.

[B]

No, but it's great because this is what I would say to an intern about not over functioning with a client. Right. Which would be, you don't. They need to learn to do this. No. Do not advocate with their professor for them. Yes. Help them figure out what is the obstacle to advocating with the professor, because that's a skill they need to build. And so, yeah, I'm sure that there are things I'm doing that a younger staff member, a younger faculty member would benefit from the learning of doing.

[A]

And they might want to do it.

[B]

And they might want to. They might also not. But that doesn't mean I have to do it.

[A]

Well, I just, I know for me, you know, like one of the things I was. For years, I played this role at my church, like this funny character, you know, at our vacation Bible school thing. And, and I, when I, when I turned 50, I was like, I need to not do this anymore because no one is going to come up and say, I want to do that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Can you stop doing it so that I can do it? Nobody's going to say that. But if I vacate the role and leave an open space, then people have the opportunity. And so it's almost like that older and wiser, we're like, I need to vacate the space. I need to clear the space out for someone else to take this over.

[B]

Absolutely. I think there's so much reality to that. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you've got your trash stuff that you're gonna do. Is there anything. Let's see, we've freed up 144 hours of your year.

[B]

I love that. Thanks.

[A]

What is the next. Like, how, how would you. What would you think in your space could be easy? Like something that could be. You already know. Like, you don't even have to decide. You already know how to pass it on or who to pass it on. It's just some sort of a. Like, for whatever reason, I haven't taken that step of getting this thing out of my calendar, out of my schedule.

[B]

So one thing would Be I could hand. Right now we have seven graduate student interns, and every week there's a didactic hour for them where we train them on some therapy technique. And I have a lot of very junior staff who are just getting licensed, but some of them come with life experience, and all of them come with some training, and they're more trained than the interns. And I could start right now. I've been doing pretty much all of the didactics, so that's another 32 hours a year plus prep time, although it doesn't take much prep time for me at this point. But that's something that the younger staff, if they each took three and I didn't do as many and I passed that off, that would be a good training for them, preparing them for the kind of teaching and leadership that they could take and could get it off my plate. And then the other thing is, as the training director for those interns, there's a lot of administrative stuff that doesn't involve clinical skill. And all our systems have changed since the person before me did it. So there really is some needing to sort of document what the process looks like for somebody. But I've been doing that with an eye toward offloading that to. We have a very skillful senior administrative assistant who's getting a master's in higher ed. Like, she's off to better things later, but right now that can go to her role once I've got it, kind of. And it's almost there. Like, every time I do something now, I'm documenting what are the steps so that it can just go to her next year and I will not have to do that.

[A]

So it sounds like there are two things that you've named that are you know what to do?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're kind of on the path to doing that.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Are they things that you could say? This feels like I should be doing something else, but if I took an hour or two hours, I could actually complete this and push it off and be done with it.

[B]

Yes. I think that especially for that, like, administrative piece of the training program, it maybe takes me an extra hour as I do this part of the process for the year, to take screenshots of everything I'm doing and put it in a folder so that, like, over the summer, I can give it all to Kelsey and walk her through it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, yeah, it. It would be investing probably two to four more hours, and then it would be taking.

Is it something you could do 15 or 20 off of my plate?

[A]

Okay. Is it something you could do now, is there any part of that you could take, take a moment and do that now?

[B]

Done parts of it now. The rest of it doesn't make sense for me to do it till I do it. And just like, in the process, it'll be quicker to do it while I do it.

[A]

Okay. But I think that's the same as easy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not. It's not that doing the thing is fun or oh, wow. But it's like, I already know to do this and taking that time, which is very hard to do when you're working 60 hours and you're already overloaded. It's hard to say, I'm going to stop all the millions of things and do this work for right now. Except that I look at the benefit that it has for the future.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. And that part feels really right and true to me that that sort of laying that out for next time is a really good use of time.

[A]

I think what we're talking about is decluttering your calendar.

[B]

Yeah, I think so. Absolutely.

[A]

And I think if you.

Zero in on the decluttering of the calendar and you do the trash first and you experience the power of that, and then you do this easy stuff that you know to do, and you experience the power of that, and then you, you know, maybe the donations is some of the stuff where you do have to pick someone to take over something or whatever. Zero in on that. So as you feel overwhelmed and you think, I've got to figure out the container, you have a lot of decluttering to do before you even think about containers.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right.

[A]

Yeah. I solve all your problems.

[B]

All of them? Absolutely. All of them, yeah.

[A]

Oh, good. Okay. What's something else you want to talk about?

[B]

Well, this one, I think, is really fast, which is I want you to give me permission to do what I think makes sense, and we'll see if you do. So usually you say start in the most visible space when you're decluttering, because visible space is sort of not an issue for us in terms of, like, someone walking in the front door. Okay. Except for my kids friends, and they've seen the mess, so I don't even care anymore. Like, they know it's not totally clean here, but it's clean, it's cluttered.

But my instinct is to start in the places where we really spend the time when we are home so that those spaces function as well as they can and feel like places we want to be. And we don't want to avoid it sound.

[A]

Okay, I just want to clarify something. You said the visible spaces where people would see when they come in the house are not an issue. And then you said your kids. Friends have already seen it. Do you mean it's not an issue because people don't come in, or do you mean it's not an issue because it's under control?

[B]

I mean, it's not an issue because people don't come in because we're not really home very much.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And because the people I would need to have a pristine entryway for are not people I'm worried about having a pristinary or those people aren't. Aren't coming. So the areas that feel useful to declutter to me, logically, the places to start are the places that we're not using.

Because it's inconvenient to sit there because there's stuff on that chair or. But places that we would normally want.

[A]

To be and there's still visible spaces. But you don't.

[B]

Yeah, they're visible, but they're not like other people visible. It's us using it visible.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, wherever you want to declutter is fine. Right. Like, this is a way to prioritize. This is a way to prioritize. And so clearing off the chair so you can sit down together. Absolutely. Sounds great. Right? Like there. That is a great thing. And I never want you to get to the point where you're like, oh, but this isn't exactly what Dana said to do. And so. Oh, no. It's like, no, if I can do this and that's any declutter that is gone is great.

But really doing it with the no mess process so that it is being given a real home and something else is leaving in order to do that. But. But I do still. Have you worked on your entryway?

[B]

Sort of. I mean, it's not terrible now, but. And maybe it's because it's not the place I spend my time because that couch is bad for my back. That particular space doesn't get too out of control, partly because we're never in it.

I don't.

[A]

Well, okay. And you're saying that you're never in it.

And it doesn't get too out of control, which might mean that it could be decluttered in a shorter period of time. I mean, again, do whatever you want to do, but if you could. If you could declutter that in a shorter period of time because a part of the issue becomes where. Where is it worth my time? Well, Anything leaving your house is worth the time, anything at all. There's real value in what happens in your heart and your soul and your mind when the doorbell rings and you're not embarrassed to open the front door because the doorbell does ring as much as we occasionally. I mean, it's not. It's not predictable. I always feel like if I lived in the 1960s or whatever, where people rang the doorbell all the time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It wouldn't be this way.

[B]

When we were growing up, we needed a clean entryway because people came over.

[A]

Right. But I think that, that there, there's this thing that happens and it won't take as long. Right.

[B]

Like, because you go, we don't use.

[A]

We don't use this space. So it doesn't need a lot in here. So it's actual only value. The only thing that needs to be in here is what people need to see when they. When I open the front door. And so it. It's this thing. And so maybe you could work on that. But go ahead and work wherever you want to work. You know, don't ever let that keep you from working, but work on that and then you'll be able to move to the next space pretty quickly. The next space maybe being the space where you hang out and then let yourself experience that, you know, opening the front door and your kids friends saying, oh, looks good in here. I mean, like, there is a lot of.

[B]

Yeah, it's true.

[A]

There's a ton of value in that to. To increase your decluttering energy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So anyway, there's no wrong answer. Anywhere you declutter is great. That is the value of the visibility rule is it gives you a place to start. But if you want to start in your living room, go for it.

[B]

Wherever. Yeah, or the mom cave. Selfishly, it's only my stuff. It's much easier to get rid of things.

[A]

With no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep. Even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capital1.com bank capital1NA member FDIC.

You know you've reached peak couple energy when your undies match, meundies match me has you both covered literally in super soft, ultra modal undies, socks, PJs and loungewear. Festive prints. Check. Cozy vibes. Double check. And right now, it's deal season. Get up to 50% off site wide for Black Friday and Cyber Monday. Take your couple game to the next level with Meundies. Match me. To get deals up to 50% off, go to Meundies.com acast enter promo code acast that's Meundies.com acast code acast.

[B]

So.

[A]

What else did you want to talk about?

[B]

I wanted to ask you so I can learn in advance from people's mistakes. What do you think the thing is that derails people most often where they, like, kind of fall off the wagon and.

Aren'T sticking with the five steps or like, I don't know, they're improvising in a way that gets in their own way. Just because if you've seen a pattern of that, I'd love to not do it.

[A]

I think it is when people ignore the take it there now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I completely understand the desire to ignore that because I hate it, too. I do not like taking it there now.

But it is the thing. Like, it is literally the thing that guarantees actual real progress because you're facing the reality of the space and you can stop at any time. And so the derailer is thinking, I'm better at this now. So maybe this time it'll be different.

[B]

Yeah. And we know it won't be because all it'll take is, you know, some random thought where it gets put down someplace weird, and then I'll never find it again. Or it'll be in this box of things to go upstairs that have been sitting there for a year and a half. Not going upstairs because it becomes background. Give your brain works like migraine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Once it's been there for about 10 minutes. Yeah.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

It becomes invisible to me.

[A]

Yeah. Which it's. That. That is exactly it. Yeah. But I think what as far as derailing along the way is, you know, I have. And this is for me, right. Like, I have gotten to the point where the spaces around outside of my closet are completely under control. But if I need to work on my closet because my closet gets closety for me.

[B]

If.

[A]

If. When I need to work on my closet there it is very easy for me to go. You know what? Things are different now because they are different now. And I have the space and I'll be able to pull everything out this time because it won't mix in with other things. Those are the thoughts that go through your brain. It's like, maybe it's different now because of all the progress that I've made and I should do this, but I know from the hard way that it will only ever end in disaster. And so I can't. I have to take it there now. I cannot do the piles. You know, I. I've shared before that during COVID I thought, this time is different because we have nothing else going on. And I'm going to do paper piles all over. I'm going to take all the paper. And it just did exactly what it always would have done because it's me. It might have been Covid, it might have been quarantine, blah, blah, blah. It was still me. And that does not work for me. And so I think. I think that is the biggest derailment is. And I hear this from a lot of people who will say, it's not working for me anymore. And I'm like, well, go back to the process, because you can't. It's very easy to be like, I've got this down. And then you're not looking at the list anymore, and you're not thinking through the actual steps.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so going back to the steps and saying, I'm going to. For this period of time, follow them exactly and precisely helps us see which little pieces in there we've been skipping that are the problem.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that makes sense. Yeah. I was telling my sister about this right before this, and she has very belatedly learned that she probably has adhd. Like, no surprise. My brother has it. I figured out I had it. And her kids have, like, actually been pointing it out for years, and she was just feeling like she was a bad, I don't know, disorganized, lazy person, which she's completely not. But she was. I was saying the thing about how your method keeps you from doing that, taking everything out and then getting interrupted, and now it's everywhere. And she said, that's exactly the thing that gets me to never declutter is I'm terrified of that. Because it's always happens. Right? Yeah.

[A]

And because I thought that was the only way to declutter, because that's what the people who everybody says. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Yes. And it doesn't work. And I know exactly. I mean, the minute I first found you and you said that, I was like, oh, my God, yes. I mean, I've learned that about information. Like, I have for years. I was a professor for years, too. And I learned very quickly that, like, if someone wants me to do something for them. I have every intention of doing it, but you need to walk me there now to make whatever step this is happening. Because if you send me upstairs, 12 people will talk to me on the way. And now there'll be 11 things I was supposed to do. And I only remember the last one until I see you next week in class. And then I'm like, oh my God, guilty.

[A]

And then.

I had every intention.

[B]

So I started back in the days of answering machines to say, hey, somebody with a cell phone call my answering machine upstairs so that when I get up there it will say, do this thing. And that was my equivalent of take it there. Because yeah, 10 minutes later I will have totally been distracted by 12 other things.

[A]

Yes, yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah. Because everything's fun and interesting and I want to do it.

[A]

Of course you do. But then it gets overwhelming.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So tell me.

[B]

I'm never bored. Ever.

[A]

Oh, I know, right?

[B]

Like what is bored? I don't even get it.

[A]

But it also, you know, I mean, you have an 18 year old who's about to graduate. I.

I don't know how long you've been around, but I take summers off. Yes. And everybody said, and I know that's a luxury, like I completely understand that not everyone can, but it is a mindset and it's a pre made decision that I've made. And when my kids got older, people asked, are you still going to take summers off? And now I look at it as I'm taking summers off because.

I just want to be available for whatever comes along. So it's not that I'm filling it with the things that I used to fill the summer with that meant that I didn't have time for working on, you know, my business. Instead. Now it's that time is open. It's, I still have plenty to do. I do all my YouTube videos over the summer and all that. But I'm like, I have that time specifically. It's like flex time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's time to be available. Which it sounds like you really love being available. So it's almost like empty time on your calendar is not boring time. It's. It's available.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which then lets you be your version of yourself that you love being. Because you like being available.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To the people who need you. To your family stuff. So. Right. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about?

[B]

Those were the ones I had on my list. Any advice for my 18 year old as they head out into the new world that I can carry upstairs to Them.

[A]

Well, I'm guessing you have a lot of experience to share with your.

[B]

Oh, sure. But I'm also the mom.

[A]

Completely understand that.

I think going as minimal as possible in packing to live in a dorm or whatever the situation is.

Minimal is key. Yeah, but make them pack.

[B]

Oh, yeah, they're just. The good news is they did camp for years and the camp was really smart. The camp would A, provide a packing list, but B, said parents get out of this. Make the kids do it themselves. And we actually did that. And now like the last summer when they were working at the camp in New York state, hours away, that they drove off to in their car, which was a scary moment, sending my kid off on the highway to drive six hours or something.

But they were packed. Like they were done. It was done a week ahead. They had already done it. There was no discussing and nagging and any. Like, they are pretty on it and.

[A]

They'Re gonna be great then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but. But I do think that going minimal, it's kind of like when you know, the things you learn, you know, before you have a baby, they want to, they being the marketing people, want to.

[B]

Sell you everything and you've got people.

[A]

Who are exciting about this, excited about this new phase of your life and so they're wanting to give you things and there's all that. So it becomes this. Look at all the stuff you could have.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Versus let's, you know, after you have the baby, you realize I used a third of that stuff. Maybe so. And the, the thing with the 18 year old going away is.

As a mom, I'm like, I want you to not be saddled with things. And so at any point where I can give advice or where I can contribute, even though it is such a desire of mine to think of all the things they could ever need and make sure they have all of those things. Because that's what I like to do. Right. Like, I enjoy that, but I hold back on that and say, okay, you know, let's, let's go with it. But, but yeah, they have to pack because that's that I learned the hard way. I, I learned the hard way with my first one that he just didn't even know what I had packed. He didn't know what he had. So when the power was out for a week during an ice storm, he didn't even know that he had an extra blanket up in the, you know.

[B]

Oh, wow. Yeah. No, I think that that makes a ton of sense. And I think the reality is that Crow's probably going to be really good at this because Crow can think, like, how different is school than camp, really? I know what I need at camp, and I really. I need, you know, the electronics that I didn't have at camp, but not that much more. And.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's a great. I. I do think camping takes you so far in life as far as helping you.

[B]

There's just a lot of skills there.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's great.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So tell me what you love about being a kindred spirit.

[B]

I'm part of it, honestly, is just supporting the work you do.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Because I think it's so needed. I work with so many people that I tell about you because they really do feel like things are out of control and they have no tools. And your tools are really important tools. So part of it's. That. Part of it is just having a community of people that, like, totally get it. I love that it's the people who really aren't naturally organized and, you know. Yeah. And who love everything and are interested in everything and still find a way to do this.

[A]

I always. We have the most interesting people.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

So fascinating to see all the varied skills and interests of the people who are. Are. Are our people.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. No, I. I actually really like that. And it is. It's a nice group of people. It's an enthusiastic group of people. I was. It would have been. With decluttering my time, it would not have made any sense to go on the retreat, but I really wanted to. You know, I thought it would have been really fun to just be with those people.

[A]

I think you would have loved it. It was.

It was. It was kind of like we all had this head start in being ourselves, and it was a really fun time. So, you know, maybe it's the decluttering time. Decluttering tasks to free up a little wiggle room. So that. Not necessarily the retreat, but, like, something that comes along that you're like. That would absolutely feed me, you know, that would energize me to be able to continue doing what you do, which is pouring into other people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Well, this has been so fun.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Did y' all love that? That was so. I just. I had so much fun. I love these conversations. They are so, so fun. If you are interested in being a member of our Patreon. Community that she was talking about, if you would like to join us and you could apply to do one of these sessions at some point, you can go to patreon.com aslabchemsclean. All right, I will talk to you all later. Bye.