Penn Badgley (1:53)

Yeah, no, I'm.

Sophie Ansari (1:54)

I would like to roll credits on that.

Penn Badgley (1:56)

That's a really deep one. I really like that. You know, a question that occurred to me the other day about AI. Like, so I'm not remotely concerned about it becoming conscious because, you know, I don't believe that's possible. Human consciousness is far beyond the capacity for computers to attain. It's not just computation, but if it's artificial intelligence, how would we define intelligence? You know, like what? Like the key to being human or the key to, I don't know, knowing where the limits of AI are is like, all right, so everything it does is not human. So actually you know, past the point where did it solved it next. So I'm totally aware there's so many. Oh, God. I mean, there's so many things it's doing and will do that are just. It's extremely disruptive to what humans need and want right now. But once we figure that out, if and when, you know, long, long, long time from now, weathered the storm, just overlooked that part for a second. I really feel like it can be just only a positive tool because anything it can do, it'll be like, all right, great. We don't need to waste human effort for that. We can be truly human with what we do. Do you know, I mean, it might sound rosy colored because we got a long way to go before that, but food for thought. Put that in your meta pipe and. And AI smoke it. Okay? Today we have on our show, we have. Speaking of. There is no relevance there. I can't say. Speaking of. I can't segue.

Sophie Ansari (3:28)

We talk about AI in this conversation.

Penn Badgley (3:29)

We do a little bit. Our guest, Blakely Thornton, is a creator and culture critic best known for his witty and incisive. It's good. His one of a kind commentary on fashion, pop culture, celebrity and identity, kind of all things. His hot takes, it can be heard all over the Internet. Very, very viral. He's also got a podcast, the Yesterdays, which was my idea first, but, you know, they took it where Blakely and his co host, Justin Sylvester rewind to the juiciest pop culture moments that defined a generation. It's kind of like punk rush, actually. And, you know, if we play our cards right, I think we're gonna get Blakely to rewind to his juiciest cringiest, pod crushiest moments. That's a pod crushiest cringey.

Sophie Ansari (4:20)

Can we roll credits on that?

Penn Badgley (4:21)

I wanna roll credits on myself. Just generally speaking. Take me out.

Sophie Ansari (4:25)

I like podcrushius.

Penn Badgley (4:27)

Of course you do.

Blakely Thornton (4:29)

Crushies.

Penn Badgley (4:31)

Oh, all right, we'll be right back. We'll be back after this break.

Sophie Ansari (4:41)

Hey, listeners, if you're on the hunt for more great audio content, I want to share a podcast I just discovered called Kelly Corgan Wonders. Kelly Corrigan Wonders is built around thoughtful, in depth conversations with people whose lives reflect curiosity, creativity, and humility. For the past five years, Kelly Corgan has been sitting down with big thinkers and doers, and she has some great guests coming up, including NBA coach Steve Kerr, writer George Saunders, and father Greg Boyle. Each episode is both inspiring and practical, offering ideas and perspectives that feel especially useful as we kick off a new year. These conversations explore how people think, how they make meaning, and how they approach life with intention. This show is sponsored by the John Templeton Foundation. Kelly Corrigan is a four time New York Times bestselling author, a PBS host and an exceptional interviewer. Kelly Corgan Wonders has more than 20 million downloads and thousands of five star reviews with past guests ranging from Melinda Gates and Judd Apatow to Bono, Bryan Stevenson and Jennifer Garner. You can listen to Kelly Corrigan Wonders in your favorite podcast app now.

Penn Badgley (5:46)

I'm Bobby Finger.

Sophie Ansari (5:47)

And I'm Lindsey Weber. Our podcast who Weekly is everything you need to know about the celebrities you don't think of us as your cheat code to People magazine. Your glossary for Hollywood a shortcut to understanding pop culture at large.

Blakely Thornton (5:58)

For the past eight years, Hooweekly has.

Penn Badgley (5:59)

Been telling listeners everything they need to.

Blakely Thornton (6:01)

Know about the celebrities.

Sophie Ansari (6:02)

They don't who Weekly airs twice weekly with brand new episodes on Tuesdays and Fridays. Listen and follow who Weekly and Odysee podcasts available now for free on the Odysee app. And wherever you get your podcasts.

Penn Badgley (6:19)

Just give us a snapshot of 12 and walk us through, you know, those coming years.

Blakely Thornton (6:24)

12. So it's the fall of 1997. I'm in sixth grade. I really started getting into tennis. I saw Venus Williams play the 1997 U.S. open final against Martina Hingis. And I was like, I want to do that. I told my mom, I was like, get me a tennis racket. Get me on the fucking court. So I started doing, I started really getting heavily in tennis lessons. I was traveling across Tennis Texas doing that for a while, which was really fun. Cause I think a lot of my like, a lot of my role models were almost like black women because the stuff I wanted to do, like men weren't doing, like there was Malavi Washington, but there weren't really like very, very famous black tennis players for in my generation until basically like James Blake. But I was like 18, 19, so heavy into tennis. The bar mitzvah track was starting for some reason, even though it was in Dallas, Texas. I was like, all of my best friends were Jewish. So like I went to like, I went to Sunday school more than I went to church. I went to Hebrew school so I could do the dance Torah portion. That was really formative for me. And then it was like everybody was starting to like girls. And then I just realized like, I didn't. I remember we were watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and they were like, Buffy's so hot. And I was like, well, she's not hot, but I too want to, like, give pithy quips and slay vampires. I was like, I don't want to be with Buffy. I more so want to be Buffy. So it was heavy into tennis, heavy into, like, watching Wimbledon when it was on hbo. It used to come on HBO in the morning. So I used to sit, wake up in the morning at like 6am and watch Wimbledon all day on HBO. So I was like a huge, huge tennis fan. I loved, loved, loved sports. And I thought I was going to play tennis at Stanford because I was a little like, competitive sociopath. So I was like, you're going to play at Stanford, you're going to be number one seed, like, naturally, that's what you're going to do.

Sophie Ansari (8:16)

Wow, that's incredible. So you played tennis very competitively, it sounds like, all through school?

Blakely Thornton (8:24)

Yeah, pretty much around ninth grade, I was getting. I was like ranked in Texas. And at that point you kind of go to like the boletarian academy or there was one in Austin where you go. I remember when I was like, this is like 15, 16. It was right around time. Maria Sharapova was like 10. So Maria Sharapova was there. And I remember, like, she was obviously gonna go pro, but I remember thinking, like, these kids were kind of about being submissive to her socially. And I was like, watching a bunch of 15, 16 year olds like, kowtow to a 10 year old off, Like, I get on the court, she's amazing. But I was like, oh, all these kids are broken. I don't want to do that. I was like, I don't want to go to school with a bunch of like, psychos. Like, and this was a very. I was a very competitive, like, wild. Someone called me a sociopath in terms of being on the court. I was more like, you know, I will die on the court before I will lose. But being with a bunch of people like that, even more so wouldn't have been good. So I switched to football my junior year of high school. And then I ended up getting recruited to play that in college. So I ended up playing football at Penn.

Penn Badgley (9:25)

Really?

Blakely Thornton (9:26)

Yeah. At UPENN in Philadelphia. So.

Sophie Ansari (9:28)

What a flex, Blake.

Penn Badgley (9:30)

Yeah. That's huge.

Sophie Ansari (9:31)

Everything you're saying mentioned.

Penn Badgley (9:34)

Damn, I'm really impressed. Incredible.

Sophie Ansari (9:37)

Yeah. What position in football?

Blakely Thornton (9:39)

I was a fullback, which is kind of a dead position now. There's more like two tight ends now. So the closest thing would be like, what Travis Kelce does, kind. Okay, that's what I said.

Sophie Ansari (9:47)

He's the perfect reference for us.

Penn Badgley (9:49)

I don't even know.

Sophie Ansari (9:51)

I know two positions. I know his position and I know Patrick Mahomes position.

Blakely Thornton (9:55)

Exactly. Quarterback and tight end. That's the end.

Penn Badgley (9:57)

That's says a lot about me that I didn't know his position. And I also don't know what a fullback does to this day.

Blakely Thornton (10:05)

It's truly not important. It's one of the least important things in my life as a black gay man. It's not important. It doesn't come up very often.

Penn Badgley (10:12)

Well, but that is okay. So actually maybe that can give us, you know, a way into this time for you. The idea that on, I don't know, like on the surface you were engaged in stuff that wasn't important to you or is it important to who you are now? You know what I mean? That's interesting. Like, that's, you know, like, I mean, I don't know if you felt in some ways you were. You don't strike me as somebody who was cosplaying straight at all. But you also then. But you know what I mean. But it sounds like you had a lot of dimensions.

Blakely Thornton (10:39)

I think I don't now because I don't. I can't say how good or bad I was at it. I was at it back then. But I do remember the cellular knowledge that I did. I needed to suppress a part of myself, especially being like a middle school boy at that time again. Like I feel like that. I mean back in like you know, the 90s, early 2000s, that was back in the heyday of like smear the queer.

Penn Badgley (11:02)

Oh that's right.

Blakely Thornton (11:03)

And like faggot being the vernacular for everything bad or like that's so gay. So I was like, I just know that those things that I know I am on some level are bad and wrong. So let me go and be aggressive and achieve a lot and be kind of like perform hyper masculinity as well as a little gay 12 year old could. But I remember I was actually hyper aggressive. I was definitely a bully in middle and high school. Really I was fairly popular. But I was also. But I know now through therapy and through just psychology 101 that I was like, let me get you before you get me. Because if you can come at me for being gay, I can't deny that or fault that. And there were certain moments where somebody would say a little thing where I'd be like, oh, they truly see me and be very scared. So I was like, let me be hyper fucking aggressive and hyper fucking physical. And also I feel like I weaponize that to a certain extent. Not as. Not as, not as an. Not as in as much of a toxic sense. But like when I look at somebody in a social situation, I like. I like, it's like almost like a Terminator. Like, what's wrong with you? Yeah, right. Like, should you. Like, if you want to fucking. If you want to. Like, if you feeling froggy, jump. Like, I'm ready. So I feel like I'm always like. But I think that's from knowing that about myself. Like seeing like, if my. If my eyebrow twitched in a way or if my shoulder. Or if, you know, seeing someone's body language in a room. Like, what are they insecure about? What are they thinking about? What are they hiding? But that's because I spent the first 24 years of my life doing that.

Penn Badgley (12:27)

Yeah.

Blakely Thornton (12:29)

So, yeah, it was a weird thing.

Sophie Ansari (12:32)

You sort of knew it on a cellular level. Did you have anyone, a friend or family member that you were sort of sharing your sense about yourself with?

Blakely Thornton (12:42)

No. No, literally, I did not. I did not kiss a man. Did not talk to anyone about it until I, like, I came out to my sister when I was like 26 or 27.

Penn Badgley (12:53)

Wow.

Blakely Thornton (12:53)

But like, in terms of actually openly saying it out loud to anybody. No one. Nothing? Nobody. So there was a weird sense of like, at that point in my life. And I almost feel like it affects me now where it's like I was so suppressed for the first 30 years almost that I had. It's like, it's almost intolerable for me to be anything but myself at this point or like speak half truths because I was speaking them for so long that I'm like. Now I'm like. I'm very much a see something, say something human being, which I feel like affects my professional life as well.

Penn Badgley (13:22)

Yeah, no, I mean, totally.

Sophie Ansari (13:24)

Totally. Did you have this love for pop culture and commenting on pop culture at that young age too?

Blakely Thornton (13:31)

Always. I remember there was that show Best week ever on VH1. Because I feel like when we were in like sixth, seventh grade, it was like prime MTV. Like, my parents made the mistake of putting a cable enabled TV in my bedroom when I was four. So like, I remember like the Real World one. I remember like Eric and Julie fighting about racism in like 1992. I remember like Paige. I remember Pedro Puck, the AIDS crisis. But I was like 8. I should have been.

Penn Badgley (13:55)

Whoa, that. That brings me back.

Blakely Thornton (13:57)

Finger in the peanut butter, San Francisco.

Sophie Ansari (14:00)

Whoa.

Blakely Thornton (14:00)

Like, you know, slap. Yes.

Sophie Ansari (14:03)

Yeah.

Blakely Thornton (14:03)

I remember like Dan from Real World Miami. Like, it was crazy. Like, all those were crazy times. But. But I think, like, the proliferation, the peripheral. The proliferation of that pop culture show, like, Best Week Ever or Surreal Life, or those things where you were seeing, like, 80s pop culture being brought back into the lexicon through, like, basic cable. That was always kind of my favorite thing. Or like, even, like, ease the soup back when, like, Aisha Tyler and Joel McHale hosted it. Like, I used to. Like, that was.

Penn Badgley (14:31)

We really are the exact same age. The references you're making.

Blakely Thornton (14:34)

Oh, my God.

Sophie Ansari (14:35)

I was like, wow, interesting.

Blakely Thornton (14:37)

You're between 39 and 41. You must be. But, like, those are the things. And I was like, oh. And that was my first kind of sense of like, oh, I want to do that. I want to come in with a kind of like, our sardonic eye, talk about all these ridiculous things, which I was also, like, at the time experiencing in real time, you know?

Penn Badgley (14:54)

Right. That's so interesting, because. Yeah, it's like. It's like that makes so much sense. And then it still feels. Not that want to make sense because I almost. It's not like it doesn't make sense, but it's very interesting that while this aspect of your personality is flourishing and blossoming, you are, you know, you're like, you're. You're. You're. You're going to pen for. And you're a football player. You're like. You're like a real serious.

Blakely Thornton (15:16)

But I think I'm also just wildly competitive. Like, I hated every second of it. And, like, don't get me wrong, I'll probably write a script or a book about it, and it will be a comedy of errors. Because it was like. They'd be like. And I was. People would be like, oh, I'm so excited to get on the field today. I'm like, oh, you like this? Oh, that's odd. Or like. Or we would have, like. Our weightlifting coach was named Coach Steele. Coach S T E E L E. Wow. And there would always be, like, a secret workout. So you'd come, and he's like, you want to do, like, the prescribed workout or, like, the extra workout? And there'd be someone, like, vomiting on the floor. And there was always, like, this unwritten rule that you were supposed to, like, do it because he challenged you. And I'd be like, no, I'm going.

Sophie Ansari (15:56)

To do the prescribed.

Blakely Thornton (15:58)

He's vomiting. Like, also, this. This is like Penn. We play, like, Harvard and Yale. And also, like, I would make more money as a banker at Goldman Sachs than I would on the practice Squad at the Cowboys. And I'd, like, have the use of my knees. So I'll never forget we were playing Yale, and we were up like it was a statistically insurmountable amount. And I was on kickoff return, which is basically, you go and you get a concussion. Like, you run up the field, head first into someone with like, a 30 yard head start.

Penn Badgley (16:22)

Damn.

Blakely Thornton (16:23)

And I remember, like, we were coming back and I was on the wedge, and I was just like, we can't lose. So I just, like, went off the field. I was like, I'm not doing that. And they were like. And they were like. They're like, don't return. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, what? I was like, why am I gonna go get a concussion for nothing? That makes no sense. And I was like, oh, logic. Now, that was the first time when I was like, the beginning of like, oh, like straight male, like, groupthink is just stupid. Like, this is why we start wars. Like, they get in rooms, they're like, well, I can't back down. Well, you can't back down. A football locker room is all at once the most homoerotic and homophobic place in the world, which is, like, very confusing. Like, I'm not sure if I've told this story before, but my freshman year, you go to, like, football camp before school starts. So this is like, August before people are on campus, and every year they pick one freshman like Hayes. I'd also never showered in a group with a bunch of men before, so I'm like 18, closeted. And I never forget, like, the super Senior. He's like 23, and he's like, Thornton. He's like, you're a little. You're a little bitch. You're a little whore. And I'm like, what? And I'm like, they know. I'm like, oh, no. Like, 10 seasons of Law & Order SVU are running through my mind. And they're all like. They all start going like, money shot. And I'm like, what the is this? All the freshmen proceed to leave. They're scared because they don't know what's happening. And I'm like, oh, thanks, guys. We're bonding for life now, you fucks when you walk out. And they proce. There's this thing called gojo, which is like a combination of, like, basically shampoo and body wash. And they just, like, throw it on your face, pretending they've ejaculated on you. Oh, my God. That was my introduction. That was my. And I don't think they understood how traumatic that was because they didn't know I was gay. But on the level.

Sophie Ansari (18:12)

Also. There were so many.

Blakely Thornton (18:14)

Levels. There was so many levels. There was an avicii levels to that. I was like, oh.

Sophie Ansari (18:22)

No. When you found out what it actually was, you're like, this is.

Blakely Thornton (18:25)

Fine. Actually, I still wasn't like, you know when it, like, takes your nervous system, like, another 30 minutes to calm down? I was like, 30.

Penn Badgley (18:33)

Years? Yeah.

Blakely Thornton (18:34)

Literally. Or like, I kind of. I said to my therapist, I was like, that delayed my coming out 10 years. That one moment was like.

Penn Badgley (18:42)

Whoa. Also, you're so right about the comic level of homoeroticism. I mean, what is just textbook gayer.

Blakely Thornton (18:52)

Truly. Like, there's nothing gayer than a football locker room. Like, I like, what? Why are you wagging your dick in his face? There's no need for that. What are we doing? What are we doing, fam? Like, you don't have the answer, Sway. I'm just, like, sitting here like, what the fuck is happening? It was so weird. It was so truly.

Sophie Ansari (19:12)

Strange. You definitely need to write this.

Penn Badgley (19:14)

Comedy.

Sophie Ansari (19:14)

Yeah. It's so.

Blakely Thornton (19:15)

Good. Or I remember when we would have max lifting day where you'd, like, bench or squat or whatever, and they'd all bark and scream, and I'd be like, I need silence. I was like. I was like, I need abject silence. I was like, cause if you bark at me, I'm gonna laugh and then, like, crush my throat with the. I'm like, just be quiet. And they're all like, what? I was like, no one.

Sophie Ansari (19:33)

Talk. I'm curious, Blakely, what were your parents feelings about your involvement in sports? Like, the way that you played tennis so well and then got recruited for playing football? Were they proud of you? Were they encouraging you in it? Or what was.

Blakely Thornton (19:51)

Your. So my dad played football in college, and I think my mom ran track up until freshman year. So they're both pretty accomplished athletes. And then my sister's five years younger, so she just kind of would, like, come along and do everything I did, but actually do it much better. Like, she was also, like, ranked, like, top 10 and 12s in Texas, but then she like team sports. And I liked. We always say if we switched bodies, I would have been like, the black Yona Kournikova. I would have been, like, on court, dating rappers, starting feuds, like, fighting with Martina Hingis. Like, I was built for. I was built for, like, a you die or I die and, like, a solo sport thing. I like that contention. Weirdly, like, it Is very. I mean, I don't know if you guys are into astrology, but it's very Scorpio. Like, oh, I'll die before I will drag you down to hell with me. Like, let's. But she loves team sports and camaraderie, and she ended up playing lacrosse at Northwestern and winning two national championships. And then she lost athlete of the Year to Brittney Griner, like, her junior.

Sophie Ansari (20:46)

Year. You're kidding. Wow. So it was just like, expected in your.

Blakely Thornton (20:48)

Family? Yeah, our family was just like, you're gonna go and.

Sophie Ansari (20:51)

Win.

Blakely Thornton (20:51)

Yeah. But it never felt like a pressure. Cause it was almost. It was very much, like, internally from me. And I also remember it was interesting again, playing tennis and, like, the aughts. Cause I remember people used to, like, ask for my birth certificate. Cause I was 6ft when I was, like, 11. So they think I was. They think I was like. I guess. I don't know. Who was that little guy from, like, Puerto Rico that lied about how old he was? I feel like they thought I was doing that. Yeah, but, like, up and. Yeah, but, like, up through 16s, I would need to bring. I would bring, like, a library car. Cause I didn't have an ID because I was a.

Sophie Ansari (21:22)

Child. I have.

Blakely Thornton (21:24)

This. But they'd be like, you're lying about his age. Like, what. What do you want us to show you? Dude, I can't drive a car. I was born in 85. It's, you know, it's 1999. I'm 14. What do you want from.

Penn Badgley (21:35)

Me? So much of what you're describing is like. I mean, it's, you know, it's comedy in retrospect. But it's often a feeling while you're living through it. You know, for everybody in adolescence, it seems like there's just, like, excruciating.

Blakely Thornton (21:47)

Pain.

Penn Badgley (21:48)

Right. Excruciating kind of.

Blakely Thornton (21:49)

Awkwardness.

Penn Badgley (21:50)

Yeah. What maybe was a source of. What was there a source of belonging some place? Maybe it was in a pop culture icon or. I don't know, like, you know, some place you felt.

Blakely Thornton (22:02)

That. I feel kind of like, honestly, I do feel like it was kind of like a tennis court. It was like. It was very egalitarian. It was very like, you win or I win. It was also like, I didn't have to depend on. Ooh, now I'm kind of thinking about this. I didn't have to depend on or trust.

Penn Badgley (22:15)

Anybody.

Blakely Thornton (22:16)

Right. Because in team sports, I think being gay, especially playing football as my primary team sport, I always feel like there will never be like an out gay football player. Because the implicit trust you would have to have in every single person on the field, on your team and the other team. Cause there are so many ways in which you can hurt the other person and have an excuse to why you did it. Like if the quarterback leads you out and you're out here and you get hit in the ribs, or if somebody tackles you and you have to trust 22 people who've grown up in an entirely misogynistic environment that they don't want to hurt you because you're gay. So I found in football, being the aggressor was good, but also that trust. I would never be myself, but on the tennis court, I could be myself. I could be kind of like mouthy and.

Sophie Ansari (22:56)

Aggressive.

Blakely Thornton (22:57)

Yeah. And also I kind of had like. I kind of had like Serena and Venus Williams as kind of icons to put that into. But in terms of pop culture, I mean, I just kind of always loved knowledge of every side of the coin because I think I was trying to find myself. And at first, when I was, you know, in sixth grade, it's like, people are sexual. They're having their first kiss. But I remember I had my first kiss with my first girlfriend Jillian, at a bar mitzvah at Dallas Cowboys Studio Stadium. And I remember thinking. I remember thinking everybody else, everybody really wasn't. It was a weird private school. I always say my school was like Gossip Girl, but more racist. It was like billionaires, oil and cattle barons. It was.

Sophie Ansari (23:38)

Hard. We're circle back to this. We're going to circle back to.

Blakely Thornton (23:40)

This. But I remember, like, kissing her and everybody was like. I was like, oh, this ain't it. That was almost like my first internal come. I was like, oh, no. If that's what they are describing, what I experienced are two very different things. It was almost like, you know, kill Bill when that alar goes off and it's like, duh, duh, duh, duh. Like, that was like, oh, yeah. I was like, I might need to kiss a boy, but we'll wait 13 years for that to.

Sophie Ansari (24:11)

Happen. It's a nice segue into one of our classic questions, which is for people to tell us about their first, like, big feelings. Like, first big infatuation, first big heartbreak. Whatever age that happened. If you're down to share with.

Blakely Thornton (24:23)

Us, I mean, the first big feelings were probably literally that kiss. I was like, oh, I am not. That was a big feeling of like, I do not enjoy this. I do not enjoy. But also, you're still not sure because Everybody's so bad at kissing at 12 and 13. Anyway. You're like, maybe it'll get better. But I remember the abject terror in having to do it again was like the opposite of the other boys. They're like, oh, I'm excited to do this. I'm like, I don't want to touch any of that I don't want to do. So that was probably the first big feeling of like, I'm somewhat different. And then also I feel like the big feelings in terms of Vega Crush again, I kind of lived in my head in terms of projection were like all the men on, like, the WB shows, I was like. I was like, ooh, like all of Buffy's boyfriends, all the dudes that were older than me on 7th Heaven. I'm like, interesting. That's hot. Okay, Eric Camden, what's going on there? What's happening with that? So, yeah, I feel like I just didn't really have. I didn't allow myself big feelings romantically through high school or college because I feel like I was very much in the closet in terms of being like an athlete or a class president or whatever else. And again, I'm sure there are people that knew I was gay. I haven't gone back and really asked the question, but, yeah, the first big feelings were the knowledge of being different. And I think for me, I remember something I used to tell myself was like, I think because it was also Dallas, it was Texas in the 2000s, it was like, you're already black. You can't be different in another way. Like, you can't actually afford it. Because being black was also traumatic in a certain sense at that prep school at that time. So I was like, it's already taking all my energy to survive in this way that you can see it coming from 10. Like, you can't. I'm black. You can't do. So I think this other thing that would have made me additionally different was not something I could have emotionally survived at the time. So I suppressed it.

Sophie Ansari (26:21)

Definitely. Yeah. Stick around. We'll be right.

Penn Badgley (26:26)

Back. We talk about uncomfortable moments a lot on Pod Crushed, right? But right now I want to talk about a different kind of discomfort. It comes from having relentless, stressful, unwanted thoughts about your relationships, your health, your identity, or even disturbing scenarios you'd never act on. And this discomfort isn't a one time thing. Those unwanted thoughts keep coming back and the distress keeps growing. It's a terrible way to feel. And you want to get rid of those thoughts so badly that you'll Spend hours doing anything that seems like it might help. Maybe it's checking and rechecking your texts to make sure you didn't say something wrong. Or walking back into the kitchen for the fifth time to see if you really turned off the stove. Because even though you're late for work, you just can't feel certain it's off. Maybe it's something else. But no matter what you try, those anxiety provoking thoughts just will not quit. Did you know that these experiences can be symptoms of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or ocd? If this doesn't sound like OCD to you, that's because OCD is highly.

Blakely Thornton (27:38)

Misunderstood.

Penn Badgley (27:38)

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Sophie Ansari (30:33)

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Blakely Thornton (32:36)

Curious. I mean, probably one of the most embarrassing ones was we were all. Well, again, we were all at a sleepover. We were in, like, seventh grade watching, again, watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I don't.

Sophie Ansari (32:51)

Know. Buffy is a.

Blakely Thornton (32:52)

Couple. Buffy. I mean, Sarah Michelle Geller was that bitch. Like, she was like her and Jennifer Love Hewitt. Oh, yeah.

Sophie Ansari (33:02)

Right. The whole, like, pen just looks off into the distance. I don't know where his mind's.

Penn Badgley (33:07)

Going. But I was definitely more Jennifer Love Hewitt than I was Sarah.

Blakely Thornton (33:10)

Krieg. THEME IS PLAYING Paula Cole is just playing in Pan's head right.

Penn Badgley (33:14)

Now. You know, I could never watch Dawson's Creek. I was never. I didn't love the shows, but.

Sophie Ansari (33:18)

Yeah, anyway, but just.

Penn Badgley (33:19)

Her. I was in them. Actually, you know what the crazy thing is? At that point, I was starting to be in those shows. So that's why I. Yeah, I mean, dude, I started when I was.

Blakely Thornton (33:26)

12. Oh, shit. You've been so young. I feel like the Dawson's Creek guys are, like, at least five or ten years older than.

Penn Badgley (33:32)

Us. I think. Yeah, they're about ten years older, but, but, but, you know, I was already living in Hollywood, going on auditions on the Warner Brothers lot, living down the street from it. So it was like. It was both. It was both all the things that you're describing. But it was also strangely, you know, the world. I was entering into some, you know, and then by the time I was 15, I was a lead on a WB.

Blakely Thornton (33:52)

Show. Oh, damn. So you know the W back.

Penn Badgley (33:55)

When the frog wb, the frog. Yeah. So for me, for me, something that I haven't recalled in so long, but anybody who remembers, like, the dubba dubba dubba, like the frog mission, the Vaudevillian frog, I have never quite felt so much like I'm quote unquote, making it as when I was 15 doing the, like, interstitial commercial pieces where you are not playing your character. You are playing the celebrity on a show with Michigan J. Frog animated. You know what I mean? Do you know what I'm talking.

Blakely Thornton (34:24)

About? Yes, I.

Penn Badgley (34:25)

Do. It's like slow motion, like this falls on the screen. Exactly that. Exactly that. And it has. It's like. It basically is like if anybody saw the new Superman, which I just saw on a plane, it's like a pocket universe. It has nothing to do with the show. It has nothing to do with reality. It's just this moment where you look like the.

Blakely Thornton (34:42)

Dream.

Penn Badgley (34:42)

Yeah. Even though you.

Blakely Thornton (34:43)

Don'T. It's you on a back lot in slow motion with, like a wet studio behind you. It has no context. It'd be actors from different.

Penn Badgley (34:52)

Shows. That was the whole thing. It specifically was like, they're together. What are they doing.

Sophie Ansari (34:59)

Together? They're living the.

Penn Badgley (35:00)

Dream. And then Michigan J. Frog was there. And when I did that, even though my sensibility was not that I wanted to make art and stuff, I still was like, you know, I don't think I've ever felt so clearly that I'm like, that I'm again, making it. I don't feel that way now as an adult. Like, that was. That was. You know, that was a.

Blakely Thornton (35:20)

Moment. Those little things are funny. Like, that's. You're like, oh, I'm doing it. I'm doing the.

Sophie Ansari (35:24)

Thing. I'm with the.

Blakely Thornton (35:25)

Frog. I'm with the.

Sophie Ansari (35:26)

Frog. Blakely, you were telling us about your embarrassing story. Watching.

Blakely Thornton (35:30)

Buffy. Yes. Watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It's like an eighth. It's a seventh grade sleepover. And I think, like, angel was, like, doing something and I had a massive erection and it did not go unnoticed. And I was like, oh, no. So they were like. And I had to, like, I made up some bullshit excuse because 14 year olds are stupid, but clearly I had a hard on for the vampire guy. And I was like, again, I think my embarrassment was being seen in middle school. And it was just like, I remember having to explain away getting a boner from an ageless vampire. Male vampire. Very specific, very.

Penn Badgley (36:08)

Erotic.

Blakely Thornton (36:11)

Very. You know, it's like one like. Like vampires don't sweat. But, like, he would sweat and glisten. I was like, why is this.

Penn Badgley (36:17)

Happening? I love that you say vampires don't sweat. Like that's an agreed upon rule of physics in all vampire.

Blakely Thornton (36:24)

Games. Well, think about it. Aren't they always cold? Think about.

Penn Badgley (36:26)

It. I guess.

Sophie Ansari (36:27)

So. They have no.

Blakely Thornton (36:28)

Heartbeat. You're dead. You're cold. Oh, why would a vampire sweat.

Penn Badgley (36:31)

So. But David Boreana sweat. Wasn't. He was angel.

Blakely Thornton (36:33)

Right? Oh, he was. Yeah. He was.

Sophie Ansari (36:34)

Glitter. He was.

Blakely Thornton (36:34)

Angel. Always glistening for some reason, because it was hot. Always listening. The whole premise of that show is actually fucked because she is a teenage girl. So, like, you're gross.

Penn Badgley (36:45)

Bro. And he was an.

Blakely Thornton (36:47)

Adult. He was a thousand year old adult. He lived several.

Sophie Ansari (36:50)

Lifetimes. Same with.

Blakely Thornton (36:53)

Twilight. He's like, but you know, who's my. You know, who's my life partner? This like. Yeah, 16 year old. 16 year old girl who's destined to try to kill.

Sophie Ansari (37:02)

Me.

Blakely Thornton (37:03)

Right? Like, come on now.

Penn Badgley (37:04)

Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (37:04)

Yeah. Okay, wait. My Buffy. This is on a different track. But my big Buffy memory is when Buffy slays Angel, right? He. Remember, he like, turned evil and she has to kill him. And then he like turns good right? Before she stakes him and she throws.

Blakely Thornton (37:16)

Him. She sends him to Hell with a.

Sophie Ansari (37:18)

Sword. She sends him to Hell with a sword and he like locks eyes with her right before she does it. I cry. It's the most. I think it was the most I'd ever cried at that age. I like fell down a wall. I collapsed down a.

Blakely Thornton (37:29)

Wall. It was real. It was.

Sophie Ansari (37:31)

Real. My friend Maria and I would call each other and debrief and we were like sobbing. Yeah, I was some real shit. Devastated. Yeah. So parasocially attached to this.

Blakely Thornton (37:41)

Couple. It was. Speaking of which, I've only watched one episode of Grey's Anatomy, but it was more. Mandy Moore is in it and it's like the shooter. And I was like, what is this show? And he goes through and murders half the.

Sophie Ansari (37:54)

Cast.

Blakely Thornton (37:54)

Yeah. And I was like, the.

Sophie Ansari (37:56)

Major. One of the most major.

Blakely Thornton (37:57)

Episodes. That's the only one I've ever watched. Everybody's like, this is cute. And I was like, this man shot this girl in the head. Like, she was like, meredith, great sister. Just gets cat in like the first five minutes. I was like, I hate this show. I don't like this at.

Sophie Ansari (38:10)

All. Like, yeah, yeah, Grey's Anatomy Gray traumatizes you. If you're faithful to them, they will take. They will kill your favorite.

Blakely Thornton (38:16)

People. They gave me one episode. I gave it one episode. Never.

Penn Badgley (38:19)

Again. I don't realize that everybody dies on Grey's Anatomy. It's just like, it's.

Sophie Ansari (38:23)

Usually. Apparently there are major ones. There's some major ones. They kill a lot of the leads. But, Blakely, earlier you talked about Gossip Girl. You said that your ritzy prep school was like Gossip Girl, but more racist.

Penn Badgley (38:37)

Truly. Which, by the way, if Gossip Girl was in the real world, Carnologies would have been just as racist. I mean, inevitably a palatably progressive for the.

Blakely Thornton (38:45)

Odds. I mean, the absence of black characters that's spoke was pretty racist in the first 100%. They had that one black girl that was like, hey, Blair. I'm like, can she have a life? What's her.

Penn Badgley (38:56)

Story? No, not in this.

Blakely Thornton (38:57)

World. What is her story? It's.

Sophie Ansari (38:59)

True. I'm curious. Did you watch Gossip Girl? At what point? If.

Blakely Thornton (39:04)

So. I did, but I was also like. I mean, I would have described it that way while I was going through it, because I graduated high school in 2004. So I don't.

Penn Badgley (39:13)

Think. Yeah, you're my.

Blakely Thornton (39:13)

Age. You wouldn't have. The show wasn't on. But when I look at, like, similar psychosis when I saw that show, there are people like that. Like, when I. I remember I grew up when I was in third grade. Our. The grand. The Ross Perot's grandkids went to my school. So my sister's actually best friends with Sarah Catherine Perot. She's. I love her. She's actually. She wrote a book called Styles of Joy about following Harry Styles across Europe. It's actually amazing. I like, sent it to Reese Witherspoon. I was like, making a movie, but.

Penn Badgley (39:41)

Also. Also Ross Perot as just a reference for 90s kids. It's like, we knew nothing about politics. I actually don't know anything about Ross Perot, but that name, Ross Perot, was he.

Blakely Thornton (39:51)

Independent? Yeah, it was 1996. I was in fourth grade. He was running as an independent. All the grandkids had bodyguards coming to school. And like, you don't know what's normal and what's not. So, like, Dwayne was just like this awesome, like, handsome black man with a mustache. But then I remember one day a balloon popped in the restroom. And he, like, kicked the door on him and pointed a gun. Cause he thought somebody was gonna kill. Was gonna hurt one of the kids. But then it was just a boy just pooped himself. And then Dwayne was. And then Dwayne was gone forever. But I remember, like, all, like. I remember all the sports teams were, like, owned by somebody in my class. So, like, the Dallas Mavericks, the stars. So it was a weird upbringing where, like, I was around it. And you don't understand how weird it is until you go to college. Like, I used to think when you go to a sports game, like, you go to the bottom floor, the players say hi to you, they give you a ball, everything's free. And then I Went to a Philadelphia 76ers game my freshman year in college. And I was like, what the fuck is this? I was like, we paid $85 to be at the top. Like, the Dallas Stars won the Stanley cup when I was 14, 1999. And they brought the Stanley cup to school. And they were like, you want to hold it? But, like, I don't care about hockey. So I remember, like, there's a picture of me like Mike Madonna trying to hand me the Stanley cup. And I'm like, no. So just I think being amongst that, like, it wasn't my privilege, but it was immense. And you were surrounded by it. So, like, understanding people, I think that upbringing allows me to, like, get in Anna Wintour's face at the Met gala. Because I'm like, you're never gonna intimidate me because I've been around this since I was, you know.

Sophie Ansari (41:22)

Eight. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wait, before we leave Gossip Girl, if you're up for it, we would love to hear your hottest take on the.

Blakely Thornton (41:31)

Show. Dan being Gossip Girl made no motherfucking.

Penn Badgley (41:35)

Sense. Oh.

Blakely Thornton (41:36)

Yeah. If you go back and, I mean, that's an easy one.

Penn Badgley (41:38)

Yeah. We need something hotter than that. You can do better than.

Blakely Thornton (41:41)

That. That made no.

Sophie Ansari (41:43)

Motherfucker.

Blakely Thornton (41:44)

Yeah. No. Also low key. Well, there's. Okay. So I do watch the Thanksgiving episodes every year, and me and myself have a tradition. It's weird. It makes me feel.

Penn Badgley (41:54)

Comforted. Wait, of Gossip.

Blakely Thornton (41:55)

Girl? Yeah, I watched the Thanksgiving. So then there's the episode where, like, Serena's like, fucking Trip, and He's like a 25 year old Congressman or whatever's happening. But, like, she's like, Blake is wearing the Stella McCartney thing, and we think it's a dress, and then they pan out and it's a catsuit. So me and my sister, every year, when they pan out, scream, it's a cat.

Penn Badgley (42:14)

Su. That's funny. I don't remember what you're talking about. I actually don't. I remember Trip. I remember Tripp, but barely. That was season three. Okay.

Blakely Thornton (42:26)

Yeah. I think also think hot take. I also feel like Dan was a little bit queer.

Penn Badgley (42:31)

Coded. Yeah, yeah.

Blakely Thornton (42:33)

Yeah. Maybe. Like, I don't think he was gay, but I do think he was like. I think he was pan or fluid. Like, I just think, like, if you replace, like, Brooklyn every time they use Brooklyn was like, bisexual, he actually makes more sense as a.

Penn Badgley (42:44)

Character. I suppose he.

Sophie Ansari (42:45)

Was.

Penn Badgley (42:46)

Yeah. If he was, everybody else was. What's the word? Well, I mean, just so immensely privileged, his supposed Brooklynism. Brooklyn Iteness, whatever it is, was meant to. I think in any given situation. It was like a. It was a substitute for some kind of difference, you know, some shred of.

Blakely Thornton (43:04)

Difference. And also like, everyone is their wound. So obviously me finding queerness and Dan being the narrator is like, well, this is like, well, I'm gay, so he's gay. But that was.

Penn Badgley (43:13)

Them. Dan was kind of that way, you know, he was like. He was always seeing in others the same wound that he has. And it was like. And it made him. Well, I guess he. Was he jaded? Did he feel.

Blakely Thornton (43:24)

Jaded? He just felt like. I feel like what played for like sensitive and like the protagonist in 2007 looked at with a 20, 25 lens. You're like, yeah, Dan kind of suck too. Like his. His loft in Brooklyn had 12 foot ceilings. Like.

Penn Badgley (43:41)

So. No, I always say.

Blakely Thornton (43:43)

He.

Penn Badgley (43:43)

The. The idea that I was supposed to be the poor kid of the bunch is like, come on, guys, come.

Sophie Ansari (43:48)

On. You were supposed to be the ugly kid. I don't think that was.

Penn Badgley (43:50)

Implied. I mean, I mean, let's not say ugly, but I was meant. But I was. I mean, there were lines. I do remember. I remember at some point. Yeah, there were just. There were comments all along where I'm supposed to be the least desirable.

Sophie Ansari (44:03)

You know, ugly in the same way Anne Hathaway is ugly in the Princess or in Dem. Which is like, you're a.

Blakely Thornton (44:09)

Six. It's like, what is calling a 5 foot 11 woman a six? A kiss. Exactly. They're like, how dare you even eat carbs, you dumb bitch. Like, what? What? Stanley Tucci. What the fuck? Stanley Tucci. Get out of here. Hopefully they fix that. Actually, they're not. Cause Anne Hathaway is skinnier now than she was then. So, like, it's not gonna. They're not. They're not gonna use, you know, realistic aging of women in Devil Wears Prada too. Also, I think Jenny was adopted.

Sophie Ansari (44:38)

Lastly. Interesting. That is a hot.

Blakely Thornton (44:40)

Take. I think Jenny was secretly adopted. She didn't really favor either one of the parents. And then also just the attitude. I'm just like. I remember just being. These two are not related. The through line is not working for me. And I just don't know. I just don't think biologically it's happening here. I just think she's adopted. They've all lied about it. If they'd gone eight seasons, we would have found it out. Cause I'm just like. That feel make no.

Penn Badgley (45:07)

Sense. Yeah, we definitely did not resemble each other at.

Blakely Thornton (45:10)

All. At.

Penn Badgley (45:10)

All. Not at all. Actually. You saying that somehow brings to life for me for a moment. Like, if. If those families were real, I mean, the relationships to each one of them had tragic relationships to their parents. Like, truly, truly, absolutely tragic. So hats off to Gossip.

Blakely Thornton (45:27)

Girl. But, I mean, it's not. Again, knowing people that have been with their parents, that have billionaire parents or parents that have several hundred million dollars, you nail it spot on. Spot on. Kids, it's not off base between, you know, the affairs, the cocaines. All that. The cocaines. And these were things I knew about in middle school that I shouldn't have known. Like, we knew about the parents drama when I was in middle school in terms of, like, bed.

Penn Badgley (45:53)

Hopping.

Blakely Thornton (45:54)

Wow.

Penn Badgley (45:54)

Embezzlement. Wow. Like, just. Well, even. Even the culture of, you know, of gossip. That's interesting. That that was. That was.

Blakely Thornton (46:02)

There. The stuff that I knew in middle school about the parents that, like, I had no business knowing and don't know how I.

Penn Badgley (46:11)

Knew. Yeah. That sounds to me like the kids were already inheriting the kind of, like, the power dynamic, you know, because, like, I think of middle school and nobody knew anything about anybody's parents. That's just, like. That was just, like, why. It's uninteresting, you.

Blakely Thornton (46:29)

Know? Oh, we knew everything. There were affairs. There were moms trying to date the divorced dads of somebody else to try to, like, you know, make sure they didn't lose their house in Highland Park. Like, there were all kinds of things that Dr. Phil, for some reason, was involved. Cause Dr. Phil is from Dallas and his kids went to a rival high school. So I was around for the proliferation of him going from, like, a radio personality to, like, Oprah endorsed. Yeah, it was just a very strange middle school.

Sophie Ansari (46:55)

Environment. Yeah. I'm curious. So you credited that middle school environment with, like, making you into this person now who's not intimidated by anyone. You know, like, you can get. You said you can get into Anna Windor's face at the Met Gala. And. And I'm curious. I was listening to some episodes of Yesterday's. And I feel like you and Justin Sylvester are so well matched. Like, the two of you compliment each other so well. He's constantly saying to you, like, are we really gonna go there? And you're.

Blakely Thornton (47:21)

Like. You're like, yeah, we.

Sophie Ansari (47:22)

Are. We are. You're just afraid. Yeah, we are not afraid to say what you're thinking. And I was curious about that. I guess you attribute it a little bit to this environment at school, but I'm curious if there's Anything else you can point.

Blakely Thornton (47:38)

To. I just feel like we're at a strange proliferation of culture. And again, I do attribute this to growing. To growing up around such immense wealth and privilege that I feel like we're at a strange space in pop culture, politically and societally, where people are. I think everybody looks at themselves as almost like a temporarily embarrassed millionaire. So, like, the opportunity to have more stuff is more valuable than, like, your fellow man. Like, I think I read somewhere, unfortunately, on social media where, like, the price, like, convenience, capitalism, the price of convenience is isolation, and the price of community is inconvenience. So, like, when I go to, like, I got you guys book. I went to get you guys. I went to get your book, and I was like, oh, let me go to, like, Chevalier.

Penn Badgley (48:15)

Books. You went to a physical.

Blakely Thornton (48:17)

Store? Yeah. And, like, do you have the book? Oh, you don't? Here's the money. I will wait three to five days. Three to five business.

Sophie Ansari (48:23)

Days. Ooh, that's so.

Blakely Thornton (48:24)

Sweet. I think it's just strange. The idea that we need to have what we want in three hours without moving is so new, so true. But also has just permeated the culture. And I think it's really, like. I think when I go to the bookstore, I gain soft skills because I know. Hey, Stephanie, what's your name? Like, I know your name. We make eye.

Penn Badgley (48:43)

Contact.

Blakely Thornton (48:43)

Totally. I wait for something. And I think, like, even when you look at, like, the Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez Bezos, now they are sponsoring the Met and they're curating the list. And, like, they're losers. They're fucking losers. Like, they're tacky fucking losers. And the only thing that is even remotely aspirational about them is they have a lot of money. But, like.

Sophie Ansari (49:04)

They. So much that it's not aspirational, right? So much that it's rewarding and.

Penn Badgley (49:10)

Yeah. And I think it's interesting that they're sponsoring the.

Sophie Ansari (49:13)

Met.

Penn Badgley (49:13)

That. That feels to me like the fall of.

Blakely Thornton (49:15)

That. It is. It is. It truly.

Penn Badgley (49:19)

Is. I'm not gonna be invited again. You know what I.

Blakely Thornton (49:21)

Mean? I have a lot. But I have lots of thoughts about Anna Wintour. And I think it's just a very interesting thing where we're. We're selling culture out wholesale for the opportunity to have more stuff. And I'm like, Anna Wintour, like, you have probably, like, what, $50 million? You really need to probably, like, get some backend payment to allow these tacky assholes to then, like, sully a cultural institution with, like, their billionaire friends. It's just. It's very strange. So again, I think me growing up around it makes me immune to the idea of, like, maybe one day I can be there, because I know what it is to be there. I've met people who are there, and they're crazy and like, the idea. And I think the idea of, like, me having a Balenciaga bag or having an additional car or house or boat is more important than, like, women having access to health care or like. Or, you know, or like, gays being allowed to marry is crazy. And I think when it's plainly stated, you know, like, I've been talking to girls that are going. And they're like. Cause I said on my Instagram, I was like, if you go to the men, I'm gonna fucking trash you. I'm like, get ready. I was like, you have six months to decide who you're more afraid of. Me or Anna Wintour. Cause I was like. But I was like, bitch, I'm gonna reach you for filth. I'm gonna drag you through glass. And there are girls that are like, ooh, I'm gonna go. And I'm like, why? I was like, so if the pretty, pretty picture is more important to you. Cause I was like, anna doesn't like you. You're not a size zero British blonde. You're never gonna be on the COVID Get over yourself. Like, it's not gonna happen. And I'm like, and she'll be dead in five years. She's like, what, 80? You.

Penn Badgley (50:49)

Know, that's the sound.

Sophie Ansari (50:51)

Bite. I think this is the spoiler clip for the teaser.

Blakely Thornton (50:56)

Clip. Surprise. Be crazy if she died before this episode came out, but I would gladly trade her death for knowledge of my powers. So run that. Amazing. But yeah, I just think we're at a very strange point in celebrity culture. Or like, the idea that I need to work or get the next film or be able to continue to make 5 million a film is more important than having a functional society. And I think broken of.

Sophie Ansari (51:25)

That. You know, you're preaching to the choir. We totally agree with you, but it's. It needs to be said. And we'll be right back. Have you heard of Chime? Chime is the faster fee free way to bank. Built for you, not the 1%. It's not just another banking app. Chime unlocks smarter banking for everyday people like you and me. With products like MyPay giving you access to up to $500 of your paycheck and anytime. And getting paid up to two days early with Direct deposit Chime can also help you build credit history stress free. Oh my gosh, that's a huge one. I will tell you about that in just a second. Their new Chime card lets you safely build credit while rewarding you with cash back for everyday spending. Two things that don't typically come together until now. Plus there's no annual fees, no interest and no strings attached. I remember when I was just out of college and just married to David and we had to go to the bank and set up my first ever credit card because prior to then I had been so afraid of participating in the credit system I accidentally signed up for a credit card at a big box store not knowing what I was doing my first week living in the US as a freshman in college and without knowing it was just like racking up bad credit. And so I was terrified of just the whole system and didn't want any part of it. And it took me a long time to build up the courage to actually take the leap and start building credit. A Chime card would have been perfect for me. I wish that they had had that back then. Plus you get cash back on your spending. That would have been a lifesaver for me too. I mean you can't lose with Chime. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.com podcrushed that's chime.com podcrushed Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services A secured Chime Visa credit card and MyPay line of credit provided by the Bancor Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. MyPay eligibility requirements apply and credit limit ranges $20 to $500. Optional services and products may have fees or charges. See chime.com feesinfo advertised annual percentage yield with Chime plus status only. Otherwise 1.00% APY applies. No IM required. Chime card on time Payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms. Is it just me or are things actually really scary right now? In the world of public health, every day brings another confusing headline or.

Blakely Thornton (53:59)

Yet again, a far fetched.

Sophie Ansari (54:00)

Claim. Vaccines are somehow up for debate and parents are scrolling TikTok for medical advice. I'm Chelsea Clinton, an advocate, author, investor, teacher and mom navigating this insane time right alongside you. I hope you'll join me on my new podcast that Can't Be True. A show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. From Limonada Media and the Clinton foundation, that Can't Be True is out October.

Penn Badgley (54:27)

2Nd. There's a little turn of phrase I came across recently in terms of that maybe this isn't as related as I think it is, but let's try it out. It feels to me like we're moving, you know, for years now people have been referencing a polarization, so called polarization division. Yes, yes, yes, of course, of course that's true. Of course that's there. But actually the word that I saw then used next to it was polarization and paralysis. And actually I thought that word paralysis got more at the heart of what I'm feeling and seeing in the world right now, because I don't feel in the same way that there's this incredibly active polarization where people are screaming at each other. I actually feel like people are becoming a little bit like paralyzed from years of that. And now it's just like that kind of instant consumerism is sort of placating literally everybody. Like everybody's blade is a bit dulled by this. Like everything constantly, all at once.

Blakely Thornton (55:27)

You know, I completely agree. I think people, they think. But like, it's crazy when people say, when I say I don't use Amazon or like I've acted in two things. Did you know, like, Amazon bought IMDb? So now if you want your picture on IMDb, you have to have an Amazon prime.

Penn Badgley (55:40)

Account. No, no, no, wait, hold.

Blakely Thornton (55:42)

On. I literally, if you go to my IMDb, the picture's blank because I refuse to get Amazon.

Sophie Ansari (55:46)

Prime.

Blakely Thornton (55:47)

What? Amazon bought IMDb. So it's like this weird thing.

Penn Badgley (55:51)

Of like, I didn't even know.

Blakely Thornton (55:52)

This. They buy all the aspects of culture. And I think it's interesting that now Hollywood and chasing Netflix has made itself a sector of tech and it's almost made. I feel like I miss art being tangible and things having to stand on their own. Like having to go to a film, having to rent a movie, having to buy a dvd. I think we, we didn't think as we were moving towards platforms, like, of the value of having something be tactile and stand on its own. Because even now, if you're the number one show on Netflix, like Stranger Things, but like, those kids aren't going to be rich forever. Like the people from Friends, they should.

Sophie Ansari (56:22)

Be.

Blakely Thornton (56:22)

Yeah. You know what I mean? But it's like, yeah, I mean.

Penn Badgley (56:24)

Yeah, they're not even close. Like, they're not they're not even. Not that I. We had them on the show. I don't know them personally, but I can just say knowing all that stuff works like. Like, not even.

Blakely Thornton (56:33)

Close. But I think we're in a weird space too. We're in an entertainment where, like, you almost have to, like, make the art for free, but then also make yourself a product offline. Like, I feel like I actually have an easier time in entertainment now because I came in through the Internet. So I understand what it is to sell myself on the Internet and then fall into other aspects of creativity, where I feel like if you're an up and coming actor now, you can be on a show, but, like, you also have to figure out how to get, like, that YSL Myself campaign or like. Cause that you actually probably end up making more money from fashion and brand deals than you do from acting. So it's a weird thing where everybody now must present as brand in the most palatable way to themselves to then make the art, which is very.

Penn Badgley (57:15)

Backwards. Yeah, that was kind of. I mean, that's been an unintentional aspect of this podcast is like, I, for years, I mean, up until very, very recently, didn't do anything on social media for any kind of cash exchange. And I've only done, like. Like a very select few. And this podcast has been, like, very much unexpectedly for me, in a way, in exercising, like, all right, this is the media landscape that all people are in now. I mean, unless you are at the absolute top of the top of the top, where, I don't know, I guess everything you do is successful, whatever, but that's not where I'm at. It's like, you know, what we've been doing the last couple years, part of it has been me trying to figure out, like, how do I do this in a way that is like, not selling your soul, like, not losing authenticity. And I'm not saying that I. Or we have done it perfectly, but it's just been like an exercise, you.

Blakely Thornton (58:10)

Know? No. Or even, like, the things you're, like, given like, or you're offered. I'm like, wait, what? Or the things will try to slip in. Like, I was doing an ad for, like, a diamond company and they were like, oh, and if you could also mention that, like, the diamond, the mining practices in South Africa are great. I'm like, no, my map is open time out. I was like, if you want my black ass to say South Africa, which is 30 years behind America in race relations, I was like, I would need to do, like, a Month of research to prove with the exact wording. And I'm like. I'm like, for me, I'm just like, okay, we can just not. And they're like, oh, actually, you can just mention that colored diamonds are pretty. I'm like, that's better. I was like, I'm.

Sophie Ansari (58:52)

Not. That's.

Blakely Thornton (58:53)

Better. I was like, I'm sorry. Sorry. I'm like, doing an ad supporting, like, white Afrikaners as refugees. I'm like, no, no, we're not fucking doing that. But they'll try to get.

Penn Badgley (59:06)

You. So this is actually a bit of a segue into, like. So you mentioned coming into, you know, this career you have now. Kind of like, it's almost like backwards from the way it used to be done, but now this is the forwards way. You know, it's like you started with commentary. You came in the back. So how did that.

Blakely Thornton (59:23)

Happen? So I used to. I worked in digital brand strategy for Ralph Lauren for five years. So I was doing that and I was like, teaching the old executives how to use social media. Like, I was teaching David Loren, like, what Twitter, what Facebook, what Instagram was. So that became like a brand. I became like a brand strategist. And then I would work for Compass Real Estate on the West Coast. And then I had my own digital content production company with McG's nephew because we met working at the Ralph Lauren. So we got to, like. I got to like, direct and copyright and, like, cast things for, like, H and M or like absinthe or like Pernod Ricard or something like that. And then I was trying to figure out how TikTok worked. This is. This was like three, four years ago. And I was like, just. Because if I'm gonna do this also, I skipped. I was also an MD at the agency behind Fuck Jerry. So after Fyre Festival happened, I got hired in. Jerry. I got hired in July after that. So I was like. So I was like a managing director at that age at the. Where I like, literally had a team of, like, copywriters, photographers, and we were doing all kinds of kind of out of home programs for, like, hotels or Fruit by the Foot or doing whatever. And then also I was used to, like, hiring influencers to do campaigns. So I'd run the opposite end of it, hiring people. So I know how that structure works. So then as TikTok became a bigger thing in like the 2019, 2020 of it all, back in, like, the Noavec white people dancing to R and B type thing, I was like, the white people Doing the Renegade. And I was like, what the fuck is this? Let me get on it. And my friend was, I was like, let me just say one thing a day for a month and see how it works, just so I know how the algorithm works, so I can like hire people for the brands I was working for. And like, the third thing I said got viewed like 2 million times. And it was Chick Fil, a competitor, Chick Fil Gay, only open on Sundays, Chick Fil, a parking lots, drag queens, house, music trademark. And I got viewed like 2 or 3 million times. And then I had like 100,000 followers on TikTok. But also like, I was 37, 38. Like, people our age were not on TikTok at the time. So I'd be like, at a music festival or some shit and there'd be like a 20 year old being like Blakely. And my friends would be like, what the fuck happened? So then when Instagram got into reels, like two and a half, three years ago, I had so much backlog content of like, things that had between 100,000 and several million views. So I just started putting them onto my Instagram. And then one of them was an old one about Zendaya. And I was like, I love Zendaya so much that I would kill Tom Holland, chop off 6 inches of my height, live the rest of my life in whiteface to date. Like, even though I'm gay, it was like, still worth, like, still worth it. So I said that and then Tom Holland liked and commented on it. And apparently he'd been taking a social media break. And for me, like, again, I'm 40. Tobey Maguire is my spider man. So I'm like, oh, that cute little boy. Look. That's so.

Sophie Ansari (62:11)

Cute. That's.

Blakely Thornton (62:11)

Funny. Not realizing he has like 90 million followers and that they have like several fan accounts that have millions of followers. So it got viewed like 5, 6 million times. It was on comments by celebs. And then I think because, like, I think again, because of the private school privilege in me, but also a lot of my friends were actresses or agents. My first and last girlfriend, Ashley Holland, was a partner of wme. So when we were during COVID I got to meet all her clients and that was Halle Berry, Robin Thede. So I've been hanging around these people, but just knowing them as people. So when I talk about stuff, it's kind of inside baseball. And also I also believe that this is my biggest problem with the Internet and I think culture at large. Anything you say, you should be willing to say to a person's face, Face. So that's why, like, I tag people. I'm like, if you have a problem with what I said, come see me. It's fine. Like, that's what the Sydney Sweeney of it all. If you want to talk it out, bitch, let's talk it out. If you want to talk it out, let's talk it out. You gotta. You got something to say. Like, Laura. That's why Lauren Sanchez Bezos has blocked.

Sophie Ansari (63:10)

Me. She's not going to talk it out. She'll come and talk to you, but won't say.

Blakely Thornton (63:14)

Anything. I know what you.

Sophie Ansari (63:15)

Say. If I have something to say, you'll.

Blakely Thornton (63:17)

Know. Exactly. And you got nothing to say. But I. But I think it's. In tagging people, it's interesting. The people that are kind of, like, bigger in the industry kind of thought it was funny and playful, and then there's a certain lightness to what I do. If you're not a racist or a misogynist, I feel like my bar is actually not that high. People are like, you're scary. It's like, no, just don't be a.

Sophie Ansari (63:37)

Nazi. Just have a sense of humor about yourself and.

Blakely Thornton (63:40)

Anything. But I find the people that do have the best sense of humor about themselves are people that have a healthy self image. I think I even made fun of you once with the.

Penn Badgley (63:48)

Dancing. Oh.

Blakely Thornton (63:49)

Totally. Yeah. I was like, he's the white guy that's right on the edge. I was like, he's making it. He's surviving by. He's doing the cha cha slide by the skin of his teeth, but he is making it. And my black aunt loves that. And she's like, oh, he's doing it. He got it. He got it. But I'm like, he's. He's one. Like, one remix and he's off. They threw. They go to the remix and he just. He's on the one and the.

Sophie Ansari (64:14)

Three practicing in his.

Penn Badgley (64:16)

Room. There's such a marker as to that dance, that spirit tunnel thing. There's such a marker where there's, like, people who somehow think I was dancing well, and then people who are like, no, no.

Blakely Thornton (64:27)

No. That's. That's. That's.

Penn Badgley (64:28)

That's. That's not quite it. Yeah. Anyway, there's a backstory to that, but not here, not.

Blakely Thornton (64:32)

Now. I mean, the spirit tunnel's a lot, though, and everybody loses their one. It's imperfect because it's people doing the beat. So if they go off, you go off. It's not a. Like, you know, What? I mean, and too, like, they're not. They can't. They're not like, beatboxing. They're doing kind of, like the melody of this. I've. I've dissected the spirit tunnel a lot because there's. There's black people that have lost their way there. All right, I'm sorry you got lost. You know, you did. I will clip this and tell.

Penn Badgley (65:00)

You. I will tell you. I. I was actually so nervous because I just didn't want to do more dancing. Like, I'd become known for, like, you know, dancing on TikTok. And I was like, I just don't want to be this, like, dancing guy or the dancing white guy. And it's so slow. You have to move through that tunnel so slowly. I was thinking, like, I'm gonna blitz through.

Blakely Thornton (65:19)

It. I'm gonna.

Penn Badgley (65:19)

Blitz. And, you know, the person holding the camera was just not moving. And so I'm just there. Like, I've just fully just basically started doing the Carlton. Cause I was like, what in.

Blakely Thornton (65:31)

The is going on here? I.

Penn Badgley (65:35)

Really. I mean, I'm just like. Every thought is going through my mind, and I did not know what was.

Blakely Thornton (65:38)

Happening. Wait, I know this is very random, but speaking of which, because I did read the book and, like, your love for 90s R&B. And I want to talk about this because nobody ever remembers it. Do you remember when Cisco made a full $7 million video for Unleash the Dragon and they just scrapped it? Cause it was corny. Cisco's first album. There was a song called Unleash the.

Penn Badgley (65:56)

Dragon. Yeah, I mean, I know the.

Blakely Thornton (65:58)

Song. Yes. They made a full video. There was a. Making the video of it. And he literally fought a full red.

Penn Badgley (66:03)

Godzilla.

Sophie Ansari (66:04)

Yeah.

Blakely Thornton (66:05)

Gosh. And they.

Penn Badgley (66:06)

Never. And they never released the.

Blakely Thornton (66:07)

Video. The video. Like, it's. You can't find.

Penn Badgley (66:09)

It. That's it. So I do remember. I mean, I fully remember Unleash the Dragon. I fully remember, like, that. I think I remember. You could watch the making.

Blakely Thornton (66:17)

Of. Yeah, it was like. It was like when the MTV had Making the.

Penn Badgley (66:20)

Video. Oh, no, no, totally. I mean, I remember watching making. I remember watching the making of the video of one of their songs. It was. It might have been Thong Song. It might have been. Got to get. I can't remember which one it was, but I definitely watched one of.

Blakely Thornton (66:33)

Them. That was wild. Or. I always talk about this, too. When Usher, before 8701, released a single called Pop youp Colla and it flopped. It was the summer of 2000, right? It was right before, but it was like, there was a time when basically they would, like, release singles. It'd be like a press single, and if it didn't hit, they would act like it never happened. So I was like, usher has a song called Poppy Akala released in the summer of 2000. Wow. And it was right after you remind me, but before 8701, which was a huge fucking brat Blake Rat album. But it was a single. It, like. It, like, peaked at 78. And they act like it never.

Sophie Ansari (67:08)

Happened. That's.

Penn Badgley (67:10)

So. Yeah, it's so obscure that I don't recall it. You know, I did see, actually when I was, like, refreshing my memory on, you know, your TikTok catalog, I saw something that I was just like, wow, this is talking about Cisco. There's. Have you seen this? This. Somebody is doing like a. Like a first reaction listening to the AI Thong song. Do you know this whole movement of.

Blakely Thornton (67:34)

AI? Okay, I. I hate AI so.

Penn Badgley (67:37)

Much. So, you know, there's a lot about. There's a lot about AI that we could. We.

Blakely Thornton (67:42)

Could. Well, let's get into.

Penn Badgley (67:42)

It. But. But I. So something that I've become aware of is like, there's this. I don't know if it's one company or many. They're basically, you know, plugging in all these hits. A lot of them, I guess, are old, like, 90s and 2000s R B hits. And they're. And they. And it's like a cover, you know, and it's like the one I've heard is Usher's. Yeah, okay. Or is it. Is it. Yeah, but it's like. It's like in the style of like a kind of John Legendy soul, kind of Leon Thomas and. And. And. No, but actually it's very good. And then this song, the Thong Song one that I just heard, like, like an hour and a half ago, and I was just like, like, this is.

Sophie Ansari (68:19)

Crazy. It's like full.

Penn Badgley (68:20)

Choir. It's. It's a full choir, and it's so good. I mean, is it perfect? No, but it's like, you can't.

Sophie Ansari (68:26)

Go down this rabbit.

Blakely Thornton (68:27)

Hole. But I'm sure it is, because. Have you heard Cynthia Revo talking about the Thong Song? Cynthia Revo talking about Cisco's vocal performance? She's like. She's like, there's no reason for him to do. There's a whole. She said there's a whole kind of like, praise section that he does at the end. So I'm like, the Thong Song with a choir made. Make Sense in that, you know, music theory of it.

Sophie Ansari (68:46)

All. No, it's really scary. Someone was just telling me yesterday that if you, like, there's. There's some certain, like, video AI video generators where if you type in, like, tech review, they'll. There's like, a very famous YouTuber named Marques Brownlee who does, like, a ton of tech reviews. And so if you type that into the generator, it'll just pull up a video of someone who looks exactly like him doing a tech review. So, like, the way that, you know, they're sourcing from what's already on the. So, like, our faces, all of.

Blakely Thornton (69:17)

Us. I mean, they've asked. I remember, like, I mean, I'll say it. Facebook was like, meta was working with me for something. Cause I do. I did the Met gala with them two years ago, and I'd host, like, an influencer party thing. And they're like, oh, do you want to, like, talk about our AI influencer thing where you can make an avatar of yourself? And I was like, no. And then she, like, voice noted me, like, good.

Sophie Ansari (69:37)

Choice. Oh, God. I was like, this is.

Blakely Thornton (69:40)

Dark. The only other dark situation was I actually. I auditioned to be one of Barney's kids when I was 4 or 5 because he was in Dallas. I would have been the judge generation. Yeah, bury the lead. I would have been the generation before Selena Gomez. Like, I was a little actor kid, so I guess I did, in a long way, really circle back around to.

Penn Badgley (69:58)

It.

Blakely Thornton (69:59)

Wow. But I remember I would basically, I was in the final audition, and they were like. It was like a group of people, and they were like, how do you feel about Barney? And they wanted me to be like, I love them, but I was, like, a very weird kid. I was like, the job, the paycheck, the hours. Like, what do you mean? And I was like, five. And then they were like, what do you feel about Bonnie? I'm like, the person in the suit. Like, I wasn't getting what they. I wasn't getting what they wanted. They just wanted. But I remember one of the guys said, this is. One of the guys goes, he's too aware. And I didn't get the job. And I told my mom what he said. And I remember, like, I stopped for some reason, all the acting gets stopped for, like, four or five years. She's like. She said what? I was like. He said, I was too aware. And she's like, yeah, you're done with this whole acting thing for a bit until you're, like, holding up to fight. So I was.

Sophie Ansari (70:48)

Wow. Wow. Yeah. Blakely, I have a two part question for you. What is a current trend that you think we need to roll credits on? And what is one that you are surprisingly into? Like you surprise yourself by enjoying.

Blakely Thornton (71:02)

It. A current.

Penn Badgley (71:03)

Trend.

Blakely Thornton (71:04)

Reboots. Give me an original story. I'm so fucking tired. I don't care anymore. Have we learned nothing from sinners, guys? Like, give me an original story. We're done with the reboots. Like, I need new. There's only four real stories ever told. So just give them original names. And then what is something that I think we should like, continue? So, yes, roll credits on reboots. Everything. Sorry. Unless it's with Jonathan Bailey. You can keep making Jurassic.

Sophie Ansari (71:31)

Parks.

Blakely Thornton (71:33)

You can keep making Jurassic Park. Do whatever you want. As long as you're wet. As long as you're soaking wet, glistening, as long as you're listening in a tartan shirt with a glasses, sweaty little glasses, keep doing it. And a trend. We need a trend. We need to. Honestly, I think the regression of gender norms. I'm tired of gender norms. They're all made up. The boys color was pink until like the 1890s. Like, let's get over it, guys. So I think letting people be who they want to be is something I really, in terms of gender identity is big for me.

Penn Badgley (72:08)

Me. I suppose that is happening. I mean, in fits and.

Blakely Thornton (72:11)

Starts. Yeah, in fits and starts. But I think more so in like fashion. Like, I feel like it's weird that we have like women's and men's clothes or actually, you know, what acting awards. Why, why do we gender act.

Penn Badgley (72:23)

Performances? That's a great.

Sophie Ansari (72:24)

Question. That is a great.

Blakely Thornton (72:25)

Question. That's what I actually think about that all the time. Like, are we saying like Russell Crowe out acting like his penis out acted Meryl Streep.

Penn Badgley (72:33)

Like. Well, I suppose what it. I suppose what it would have done in the. I think it would demand. If there's a. If there's a function to it, it demands the inclusion of women. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah, I mean, maybe that wouldn't be the same. The problem.

Blakely Thornton (72:48)

Now. Yeah, so I would say that and I'd also say female directors. That too.

Sophie Ansari (72:54)

Yeah. Wait, you want to roll credits on female.

Blakely Thornton (72:57)

Directors? No, no, no. I want more, actually. Well, literally, Yes. I would like female directors to get to roll more credits. I would literally. Pun intended. Like female directors to roll more credits. Because I do think 1000%. I always start to think, I always think about like, I think my through line is actually just curiosity. Like People like, you're smart. I'm like, I'm not smart. I'm inquisitive. I want to know why something happened and why it got made. Or even when I was little, watching shows or commercials, I was like, who made it? Who's behind the camera? And it's their perspective. So I always think about that. Like, when you think about, like, 80s, like, something like 85% of direct movies in 2025 were male directors or, like, still Jesus, that, like, affects. That affects who the hero is, who the villain is, who gets speaking roles. Yeah, man.

Penn Badgley (73:40)

Yeah. You know where I. To be honest, Nav and Sophie know this, I feel like this thing that you're saying about being too aware, I almost feel like that's being so tired of the historical biases of the industry. And every industry has it, but this industry is the one that tells stories about humanity back to itself, and it does it for an unfair number of people. You know what I mean? It's like, so few people are responsible for storytelling back to so many people that I know that I am so tired of all its prejudices and biases historically that, like, it's hard for me to have faith in the system enough to, like, get it up for, you know, like, I want that role. I want to perform well. It's like, to be honest, it's. It's. It's a little bit of an existential.

Blakely Thornton (74:27)

Crisis. I think it is hard, too, because I think honestly, before, you had, like, you had barriers to entry and gatekeepers that could be like, oh, the magazine's telling you what's cool. But I think now because of social media, we have an information flatness. And I'll put another role credits on roll credits on white straight men being movie stars. Because you know what? They're not a bunch of them or not. All right? Did you see that fucking Hollywood issue? The Hollywood. The people's princes. No, no, no. If you take the seven straight white men that are there, their combined box office for their last wide releases is $50.2 million. They're not even average. There are 13 working black actresses that have higher box office returns as top bill people than the men on that cover. I'm sorry, I'll say it. Austin Butler. Not a movie star. Jeremy on white. Not a movie star. Dua, Lipa's boyfriend. Don't even know your fucking name. Not a movie star. You're all cute, you're all good actors, but you, can you open a fucking film? No, none of you. And yet. And then half of Them were on the fucking cover last year, two years ago. So, again, it's a regurgitation of an old idea that we're supposed to be celebrating. And we can see the math isn't mathing. And I feel like the weird thing in Hollywood is really the gatekeepers. It's like the agents and it's the managers. And I feel like, in a certain sense, in its most toxic, straight white dudes are more invested in themselves being the center of the pie than the pie being bigger. They'd actually rather have something that they understand and feel that they are the focus rather than, like, make more.

Penn Badgley (75:56)

Money.

Sophie Ansari (75:56)

Totally.

Blakely Thornton (75:57)

Yeah. Like, you know, like, sorry, like, caught stealing didn't make money, kid. Bruce Springsteen movie didn't make money, guys. But we're gonna keep doing it, aren't we? And we're gonna keep celebrating it in the face of diminishing, marginal returns. And I don't get it. So, yeah, roll credits on straight.

Sophie Ansari (76:11)

White movie stars Fair here for all of this. I just had a thought about the female director thing. I don't know. Has anyone seen Die My Love with Jennifer Lawrence and.

Blakely Thornton (76:21)

Rob? It's.

Sophie Ansari (76:22)

Wild. It's wild. And I was thinking, you know, it has these, like, very animalistic, like, fully nude sex scenes, and she's naked so much of the movie. But it felt to me, really artistic. It didn't feel pornographic at all. And I don't think you could have gotten that out of Jennifer Lawrence with a male director. Like, I just don't think she would have been that comfortable. And I think a male director. I don't even know if a male director would have been capable of directing in a way that wasn't pornographic for the things that they were actually doing. Yeah. And so there's just like. Like, let's have our male directors. But we're missing out on so much by not also having female directors. Like, even, like, better.

Penn Badgley (76:55)

Performances.

Sophie Ansari (76:56)

Yeah. You know, in certain roles that demand it. So I was really struck by that. I went and Googled after, like, who was the director? Because why didn't this feel pornographic when it always does? Or a story about postpartum? I mean, that would happen. It's.

Blakely Thornton (77:12)

Actually. It's actually interesting watching from, like, a male female perspective. Even seeing Sinners. I saw it with my black friends, and I saw it with, like, my white friends. And, like, they didn't realize the vampire wasn't lying. He was like, they're gonna come back and kill you. And he was like, he's lying. I'm like, no, babe, he that it's the 1920s. Like, those white people are coming back. Like, did you not. I was like, baby, I would have if he said fellowship and love. I've been like, come on, let's go back to Angel. Circling all the way around to Angel. I like, honestly, if I was in night. 1920s, Mississippi vampire all the way. Kill me. Kill me right now. Very short movie. Very short movie. But it was. But it's interesting. Like, oh, like from again. It's just like everybody is their wound. I'm like, oh, this gay white man doesn't understand that in the 1920s, like, black people couldn't own things, bro. Like, they were gonna come back and murder. And he didn't understand the vampire was telling the truth, which makes the offer compelling. I was like, oh, this is a different film for you. And I think that. Yeah, I just think those different perspectives, even in audiences are very interesting. Or even like, watching Wicked for good. It was very funny watching it with, like, a bunch of black women. Cause when her and Jonathan Bailey are good, they're like, get an Elphaba clapping at the sex scene. And for me, it's just like the most musical theater ever. Because it's like a gay guy kissing a gay.

Sophie Ansari (78:34)

Woman. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I heard from everybody. I love them both, but you can tell it's two queer.

Blakely Thornton (78:40)

People. You know, y' all are gay. Like, she's. She's wearing a cardigan during the sex scene. Like, come on. This is. This is. This is musical theater. She's got like a full on chunky knit. This is so.

Sophie Ansari (78:50)

Funny. There were children in my theater and they cried.

Blakely Thornton (78:53)

Out.

Sophie Ansari (78:53)

Why? When they started kissing, it was so cute. I was like. I think both actors felt that.

Blakely Thornton (78:58)

Way. Exactly.

Penn Badgley (78:59)

Exactly. I haven't seen it.

Sophie Ansari (79:01)

Yet. So.

Penn Badgley (79:02)

Funny. But I will. I suppose I.

Blakely Thornton (79:03)

Will. I mean, it's.

Penn Badgley (79:04)

Interesting. I say it a.

Blakely Thornton (79:05)

Year. I'm not a musical theater girly. So, like, it was. So it's funny knowing the cast. And I was actually talking to Jonathan Bailey out. Cause they were doing a Dunkin Donuts commercial that Paul Scheer was directing. And I became friends with Paul Scheer because we did a live show at Dynasty Typewriter. And he is my pop culture soul sister. We ended up. We ended up reenacting MTV's Rich Girls. That 2003. I don't know if you remember.

Penn Badgley (79:30)

This. Yeah, I do. I never saw it, but I remember.

Blakely Thornton (79:32)

It. 2003 reality show about Ally Hilfiger and her friend Jamie Gleicher. And it's Actually, it's supposed to be about, like, consumerism and rich girls. And it's like a real life kind of a Gossip Girl. Cause they go to the children's professional school, but it's like Mischa Barton and Scarlett Johansson are in it. Cause they were in the same class. But also it's about the disillusion of a female friendship unintentionally. And it's not on streaming. I think Tommy Hilfiger had it wiped because she's slowly having a breakdown. And at one point, she is going through a Bristol Farms in Greenwich, Connecticut, with a Birkin bag, trying to get the ingredients for a burrito. Cause she's like, I don't understand anything, Dad. I can't even make a burrito. And she's like, asking the employees of Bristol Farms, like, what do you put in a burrito? This woman's like, what. What is this bitch.

Sophie Ansari (80:17)

Doing? And it's like the pronunciation of.

Blakely Thornton (80:20)

Burrito. She goes burrito with, like, a hard tea. But it was like, But. So me and Paul Scheer were talking about that, became friends, and he was like, oh, you know Cynthia and Jonathan. So I was like, basically, it's like, oh, wicked for good. Cause it's like, wicked for good, but, like, forever. But also, like a pun for good. And he's looking at me like, are you stupid? And I'm like, I'm like, babe, I've never seen this. I was like, I don't like musical theater. I am doing this. I am watching these films. Cause I like, I know you, too. I have never. Like, if you would've asked me what Defying Gravity sounded like before last year, I would have sang like, a Sarah Bareilly song. Like, for some reason, it was like. For some reason when people said Defying Gravity, my thought was, I'm not gonna raise like you. I love. I don't know.

Sophie Ansari (80:59)

Why.

Blakely Thornton (81:00)

That. That was the tune of Defying Gravity in my.

Sophie Ansari (81:04)

Head. Ken thought it was called. He said to Ariana Grande, he called it Define gravity. So that's.

Penn Badgley (81:11)

What. That's what I heard. Like, divine gravity. Like, what's that? How do.

Sophie Ansari (81:15)

You. That's.

Penn Badgley (81:15)

That's. That's conceptual.

Blakely Thornton (81:17)

For. So basically we had the same.

Sophie Ansari (81:18)

Thing. I was like.

Blakely Thornton (81:19)

Physical. I was like, it's like, wicked for good. Jonathan Bailey being like, are you? Well, I wish you were.

Sophie Ansari (81:26)

Gay. You guys are the.

Blakely Thornton (81:29)

Same. He's just like. I was like, you know, I don't know what happens. He's like, what? I was like, bro, I don't care. I was like, if you guys weren't in this film, I probably wouldn't see it, but it's.

Penn Badgley (81:40)

Great. All right, so we're coming to the close here. We always have a final question. A little bit of a hard left. But as we've been saying, bringing it back to the beginning, if you could go back to 12 year old Blakely, what would you say or.

Blakely Thornton (81:54)

Do? I would tell him that, one, it's corny, but, like, it's gonna get better. You will be able to be your full self, and your full self will be special and will be your value to the world at large. And two, the way you feel things is not a weakness. Yeah, I'm almost like Tobia, but, like, the way you like. Cause I think at my core, I'm actually, like, very empathetic and I feel things a lot. And I think being open and being gay and being adult is me unlearning the need to hide that. The need to, like, be vulnerable. So, like, be nice. Wave to people. My new thing is I'm nice until I'm not. But I feel. But I feel like I would tell 12 year old Blakely it's gonna get better. Being you will be your value. Being you will be your superpower. And just always be open to people, even if it hurts. And it's better to be open and get hurt than be closed.

Sophie Ansari (82:52)

Off. That's really.

Penn Badgley (82:54)

Sweet. Yeah, it is beautiful. We all need.

Sophie Ansari (82:56)

That. Blakely, this was so.

Penn Badgley (82:57)

Nice. Thank you really, so much for coming.

Blakely Thornton (83:00)

On. Yes, this was.

Sophie Ansari (83:01)

Fun. You can follow Blakely Thornton online at Blakeley Thornton. And you can listen to his podcast the Yesterdays on all the usual platforms. Podfresh is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content. Like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com. don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads. Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads With Lemonada Premium, are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Habits Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from lemonada.