Penn Badgley (1:34)

You know, you don't have to say that. We're not giving us any points here.

Sophie Ansari (1:38)

I know. And that's how you know it's true.

Nava Kavilan (1:42)

Sophie's also trying to get cast on the Duffer Brothers next project.

Sophie Ansari (1:46)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to dip my toe into acting. Don't worry about it.

Penn Badgley (1:51)

Your family seems to have maybe some pointers. I think at the very least, if that's going to be your plan, you can talk to your brother.

Sophie Ansari (1:58)

Oh, actually, wait, wait. I do want to tell you this. Ben, my brother texted me, and he was like, you need to tell Penn that he has to be in a musical because he saw your Sam Smith video. And I was like, unfortunately, Penn hates musicals. And he was like, no, that's perfect. Every musical needs people who hate musicals. Otherwise, it doesn't work.

Penn Badgley (2:18)

I'm kind of like the person who grounds something and makes it work because I. Because I'm not sure I like it. That's like my role in a project.

Nava Kavilan (2:25)

Exactly. Perfect.

Penn Badgley (2:26)

So you need to do a musical that's kind. That's kind. I don't know why everybody's freaking out about my voice. What I'm seeing, I mean, next to Sam Smith sounds bad. But even in particular, it's like, you know, I have a good voice, but it's like, you know, a million people have good voices. I think it's a really hard place to be when you actually have a good voice because it's. Because to sound great, you really have to try and like, I, you know, that was a first one take thing and I was not prepared to sing that at all. Like, Sam's team suggested that and I was like, oh, sure, I guess so. But I was like, you know, before we made the TikTok, I was like, well, the one thing I'm not gonna do I is sing that song because, like, I just didn't think Sam would do it. So I literally didn't know the melody. Like, I didn't know I knew the melody of of course the chorus, but I didn't know the melody. And so I'm really like. I'm like.

Sophie Ansari (3:21)

It worked.

Penn Badgley (3:24)

But yeah, it was. And so I actually was nervous because I was like, oh, now this is going to be the thing, you know, I was like. I was like, do I go for it?

Podcast Host / Narrator (3:33)

Do I make it really bad?

Penn Badgley (3:34)

What do I do? Which, you know. Anyway, let's get to our guest. We have one of. I shouldn't say it's one of our favorites. Cause like, then it clearly makes everyone else see. But just like a joy to speak to. Such a joy. Such a lovely, refreshing breath of fresh air. Caleb McLaughlin, the actor you probably know best from his five seasons as Lucas Sinclair on Stranger Things. Caleb was already a pro by the time he was doing this. He was in the Lion King on Broadway from the age of 10 years old. And since starring as Lucas, he's been in films like Concrete Cowboy with Idris Elba and Shooting Stars, which was produced.

Podcast Host / Narrator (4:20)

By.

Penn Badgley (4:22)

A little figure known as LeBron James. And he's also here today to promote this new animated film he's got. I see this produced by Stephen Curry, which is confusing, but it's called Goat, which is about a goat wants to be the greatest of all time. Don't take my word for it. That's probably the worst pitch you'll hear for it. It's a huge movie and it's great and it's funny. As is Caleb. We are very excited to have him on. Don't go anywhere.

Podcast Host / Narrator (4:51)

Please stick around.

Julia Louis Dreyfus (Ad Voice) (4:58)

Let's Talk about protein. It's all anybody seems to talk about lately, and for good reason. So many people want to build muscle and support existing muscle, but getting enough doesn't have to mean eating yet another bland chicken breast at the end of the day. To hit your protein goal, Ratio protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup. That's more protein than four whole eggs. Not only is it packed with protein, but Ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise great taste when hitting your wellness goals, whatever they are. If you like a blend of citrus and sweetness, you might want to try their Key lime pie flavor and get ratio protein's 25 grams of protein is the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle, plus zero added sugar. This helps you get the fuel you need to power through your day. Ratio does the math so you don't have to head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you. Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from lemonade Media premieres November 12th. Wherever you get your podcasts.

Penn Badgley (6:39)

Let's start at 12. We do know for you, I guess you were. Were you rapping the role of Simba on Broadway right about this time?

Caleb McLaughlin (6:49)

12 years old. Yes.

Penn Badgley (6:50)

So you actually like Gaten and it sounds like some of the other Stranger Things cast, you were a veteran of the stage by the time, you know, this comes around.

Caleb McLaughlin (7:00)

So. Oh, I said yes. Too soon?

Penn Badgley (7:02)

Well, no, no, but I would say that like that you become a veteran as a child pretty quickly. The idea that you were doing this for at least a couple years, that you were, you know, you've said it was so strenuous. So like we really just want to hear a snapshot of this, of this world you're going in and out of which for some would be like, you know, kind of the end all be all. It is Broadway.

Sophie Ansari (7:24)

Right.

Penn Badgley (7:24)

And it also, it's the Lion King.

Caleb McLaughlin (7:26)

Yeah. I mean at 12 years old I was ending Lion King. And that was a another, I guess reflection on my past at the time where I'm like, wow, this career of mine. Two years, you know, working hard, h being here for eight shows a Week. Like, what else can I do? I. You know what I mean? I mean, as a kid, you have this dream and you just go for him. I'm glad my parents were able to kind of support me in that. A lot of, you know, parents can do that. You know, a lot of parents don't have the time to do that. I remember watching Lion King for the first time two years prior to me. Actually, like three years prior to me being in Lion King and seeing young Simba on stage and just saying, oh, I want to wear that makeup, I want to dance, I want to backflips and stuff on stage. Not thinking, like, oh, I'm going to have this planned out or like, yeah, planned out career. So I was just going with the. The flow.

Penn Badgley (8:21)

Do you remember, like, the audition?

Caleb McLaughlin (8:22)

Yes, I do. I remember doing, like. Like four or five auditions, and it was like, with Broadway, people don't realize how critical the auditions are. I remember doing my first audition for Lion King, and I was singing Just Can't Wait to be King, and they were like, do it again.

Nava Kavilan (8:46)

You were like 9 or something.

Caleb McLaughlin (8:47)

Like, like 10. Like, I was 10 years old.

Nava Kavilan (8:50)

That's crazy.

Caleb McLaughlin (8:51)

Literally. And they were not enough, so. And let's do the. Let's do the sides. And I'm like, oh, okay. And then I think the sides helped me. So my acting helped me.

Penn Badgley (9:02)

Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (9:03)

Audition.

Penn Badgley (9:03)

Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (9:04)

And then it was just like this process of just going back and forth and seeing what I can do the dancing. If honestly, they. I. Working with kids, they also see that their work ethic, not how talented you are. Are you a good person? And then my last audition, I was very sick. I had the flu going into my last audition. I remember my mom asking me that morning, like, are you sure you want to audition? You can audition again next year. I was like, no, I have to. I have to audition. This is what I want to do.

Penn Badgley (9:34)

That's not the way Broadway works, Ma.

Caleb McLaughlin (9:39)

That's not the way Broadway. That's not the way. I literally went to the audition, threw up in the bathroom, came back, oh, my God. Laying on my mom the whole time.

Penn Badgley (9:50)

Wow. That is a pre Covid world, by the way. Now they would be like, truck this child out of here.

Caleb McLaughlin (9:58)

Literally. I think about moments like that all the time, and I'm like, wow, I was putting people in harm's way.

Penn Badgley (10:05)

It was horrible.

Caleb McLaughlin (10:07)

So bad.

Nava Kavilan (10:07)

Caleb, I'm so curious just because. Yeah, I haven't had the opportunity to talk to someone who, like, starred on Broadway when they were 10. What was opening night? Like, what do you remember about how you felt and just that whole experience.

Caleb McLaughlin (10:20)

The opening in Lion King is one of the best openings in, honestly, any Broadway.

Penn Badgley (10:27)

Probably anything.

Caleb McLaughlin (10:28)

Anything.

Penn Badgley (10:28)

Probably, let's call it anything.

Caleb McLaughlin (10:29)

Anything, right?

Penn Badgley (10:31)

I've not seen it, and I know it is. I just know it's.

Nava Kavilan (10:33)

I've seen it multiple times. It's so good. It's one of the best plays on Broadway.

Caleb McLaughlin (10:37)

Yeah.

Nava Kavilan (10:38)

So.

Caleb McLaughlin (10:39)

So amazing. So. And there's this smell backstage I can't really describe. You have to go back there. It's like a mixture of, like, makeup and, like, puppeteers. Like puppets. Not puppeteers, puppets. And, like, leather and, like. Yeah, like metal and steel and.

Penn Badgley (10:54)

Interesting. It's like a workshop, kind of literally.

Caleb McLaughlin (10:57)

Literally, like a workshop because you have all these costumes and a lot. And a lot of, like, the. The costume that. So my opening scene isn't the circle of life, but the circle of life comes. It ends, and then my scene comes on, and it's like this harmonized orchestra and the ensemble have these, like, grass outfits on with these skirts, and they're, like, standing there strong. The woman and the men, and they have these grass, like, hats on, top hats, and they're all, like, in sync. And I have to, like, jump through. Jump through the grass, like, a lot. Like a cub. It's an amazing scene. And I remember before I went on stage, I. I prayed and I was just, like, praying to God, just saying, like, thank you. I was like, I want to have so much fun and keep me safe because it is a dangerous thing to do, honestly. Like, wow. The stage opens up. There's. When I go out on stage, there was, like, a big gap on my right side. So if I jumped off, I would have, like, fell into the pit and I could.

Nava Kavilan (11:57)

Oh, my God.

Caleb McLaughlin (11:57)

Like a think 20 foot drop.

Penn Badgley (11:59)

You would have died.

Caleb McLaughlin (12:01)

I know. Literally would have died. Literally would have died. But I had to act like I was having fun. Like, I was this close to jumping off the stage, but then I was. You know what I mean?

Nava Kavilan (12:12)

Oh, my gosh.

Sophie Ansari (12:13)

I'm so curious. You said when you watched the Lion King, you saw Young Simba and thought, I want to be doing that. I want to be doing backflips. I want to be wearing that makeup and then hearing how physical the role is, even just from that one scene. I'm curious what you were like as a kid, pre Lion King. Like, were you very physical? What was. What was your relationship to sports? Like, Yeah, I want to know.

Caleb McLaughlin (12:37)

Yeah, I was definitely an athlete. I didn't want to be an actor. I. Oh, really? Yeah. I wanted to. Honestly, I wanted to be. I wanted to have a garage band after watching Lemonade Mouth on Disney Channel.

Penn Badgley (12:50)

Wait, watching what?

Caleb McLaughlin (12:51)

Levitate Mouth. Have you heard. Have you seen that?

Penn Badgley (12:54)

No.

Caleb McLaughlin (12:54)

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's. It's so.

Penn Badgley (12:57)

I haven't even heard of that. Like, I'm actually surprised. Like, sure, I haven't seen it, but I don't even know what that is.

Caleb McLaughlin (13:02)

Oh, man. Yeah, it's super. It's probably, like, super. Like, Gen Z. Yeah, I guess it must be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's a. It's not a. It's not a popular one. It's one of those, like, gems and, like, you have to know type of thing.

Penn Badgley (13:16)

Okay.

Caleb McLaughlin (13:16)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (13:17)

It's maybe one of those signs that I'm definitely getting old.

Caleb McLaughlin (13:20)

Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin (13:20)

Sorry.

Penn Badgley (13:21)

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, that's where you say. I said yeah, too early.

Caleb McLaughlin (13:25)

Yeah. Played basketball. I played tennis, soccer.

Penn Badgley (13:35)

When did you start dancing?

Caleb McLaughlin (13:38)

Depend, like, professionally or just like.

Penn Badgley (13:40)

No, just like. Because it sounds like. Was it the portal into performing for you because it was physical?

Caleb McLaughlin (13:45)

Yeah, definitely. Dancing was the portal into performing because I danced at this, like, my very first dance school I went to in my town was called Happy Feet, and I was, like, the only boy in the ballet.

Penn Badgley (13:58)

The rest of them were penguins.

Caleb McLaughlin (13:59)

The rest of the. That was so funny, that. That was literally. Yeah, that's funny.

Nava Kavilan (14:05)

Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (14:06)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (14:06)

There's one boy and 12 penguins. No, guys, that is good. That. That's gonna be the teaser on this episode. Flip those fins.

Caleb McLaughlin (14:18)

Come on.

Sophie Ansari (14:20)

How old are you at?

Podcast Host / Narrator (14:21)

Happy?

Caleb McLaughlin (14:22)

I was, like, 8 or 7 or 8.

Sophie Ansari (14:26)

So you with a bunch of girls in a ballet class?

Caleb McLaughlin (14:28)

Yeah, yeah. There's actually. I think my mom has, like, a video of me kind of like. There's, like. There's this. There's a. I can remember, if I can remember now if I can remember. I remember we did a recital, and I have to, like, come out, and they're all, like, standing, like, in this line, but I have to come through the middle and, like, spin them, like, one by one. But, like, there's, like, one girl on this. I want to go on that side, and I'm, like, spinning them, and then I have to, like. It's. It was like, this whole performance where I was, like, the only guy in the class, and I had to, like, from guitar, my leg or, like, do that.

Penn Badgley (15:08)

Wow.

Caleb McLaughlin (15:08)

Yeah, that's. I remember, like, bits and pieces of what I had to do.

Sophie Ansari (15:13)

They were making you play all the male Roles.

Caleb McLaughlin (15:15)

All the male roles. Yeah, literally.

Podcast Host / Narrator (15:18)

Was it.

Penn Badgley (15:18)

Was there any. I mean, to be honest, the way you're talking about it, the way you're reflecting on it, the way it feels. I don't get one ounce of, like, awkwardness, but was there ever any kind of, like, I am a boy doing what apparently only other girls do? Like, you know what I mean? Like, did you ever feel that?

Caleb McLaughlin (15:37)

I mean, yeah, I feel like, you know, when you're younger, everyone kind of tells you, like, oh, that's what girls do. And I'm like, girls are cool. Like, that's awesome. I remember. No, literally, I was. I didn't even think about it until now. I haven't spoke about this.

Penn Badgley (15:52)

That's what I mean. I actually didn't. I don't want to force it. And I sort of feel. I feel that. That. Because it's, like, not one ounce of awkwardness, and that's actually really refreshing. That's where you also feel very Gen Z. You know, you're like, yeah, no, that wasn't an issue.

Caleb McLaughlin (16:03)

Yeah, no, it wasn't. Because my. My dad took ballet when he was younger, and he was, like, super supportive of it, and. And my mom, of course, and. And they just knew that. I love dancing. I've been moving since I was a kid. Like, you can ask the cast, you can ask gay, and if there's no music playing, I'm dancing.

Penn Badgley (16:21)

That's awesome.

Caleb McLaughlin (16:22)

My, like, heartbeat. I don't know. But, yeah, I really thought about, like, oh, my gosh, I'm the only guy. I was like, oh, that's cool. I'm gonna have fun. Like, we're gonna dance, and that's it. Yeah.

Nava Kavilan (16:33)

Caleb, your family sounds really incredible. I would love to hear a little bit more about your dynamic with your siblings, your parents. Just any, like, fun little tidbits about your household.

Caleb McLaughlin (16:42)

Yeah, shoot. I have three siblings. Older brother, older sister, and a younger sister. And then my. In my parents. Both my parents. Yeah. I mean, what do you want to know? I know. You know, it's so funny. I don't really, like, know how to talk about that. Yep, they're great. No, but. No.

Nava Kavilan (17:03)

How do you fit in in the sibling dynamic? I feel like sibling dynamics are so interesting, and being one of four, like, sort of. What was your role in that dynamic?

Caleb McLaughlin (17:10)

So, yeah, I'm the second youngest, so. And then the two older siblings. I mean, I'm kind. I'm not middle child, but I am kind of middle child. But then once I had this career, now my older sister gets this middle. Middle child, like, I guess she has, like, the middle child syndrome thing. But how do I fit in there? I don't even know. I mean, we just kind of like. Well, here's the thing. Me and my sister. Me and my younger sister, there's a big age gap. Like, my older sister is 31 now. 32.

Penn Badgley (17:48)

Damn. So old.

Caleb McLaughlin (17:49)

Yeah, that's old.

Penn Badgley (17:52)

Literally.

Caleb McLaughlin (17:53)

And how old are you, Caleb? I'm 24. And then my older brother is 36. I'm trying to figure. I'm trying to.

Sophie Ansari (18:02)

Wow.

Gretchen Rubin (18:02)

Okay.

Nava Kavilan (18:03)

Yeah, there are big gaps.

Caleb McLaughlin (18:04)

Yeah, yeah. Literally makes sense. And he's turning 37 this year. Yeah. So. And then my younger sister is 20 years old, so it's. It, like, of course, as, like, my older brother and older sister, they grew up together at their, like, crucial moments in their lives, and then. Then the second half of the siblings grow up. Yeah. You know what I mean? It makes sense. It might be some sibling, like, not rivalry, but like, oh, we're the better duo. Oh, they're the better duo.

Penn Badgley (18:32)

That's funny. Yeah, that's actually. That's funny. I've never quite heard that. Like, it's two. It's two pairs. In a way.

Caleb McLaughlin (18:38)

It's funny. It's kind of funny, though. It's because of the age gap, because they're. They're five years apart, and me and my sister are four years apart. I think I did the math, right. 37 to 36. No, 32 to 37. Yes. Because he's turning 37 this year.

Nava Kavilan (18:52)

The only podcast where we'll ask you to do math.

Caleb McLaughlin (18:55)

Yeah, I know. Yeah. Don't. Please don't. Do not.

Penn Badgley (19:00)

Like, I was raised on a set. There was no way.

Caleb McLaughlin (19:05)

I'm just an actor. I'm just an actor.

Nava Kavilan (19:08)

Did they.

Sophie Ansari (19:09)

I. We've talked to some people who. For the one child who got into performing early, it kind of shakes up the family a little bit, because, like you said, you were really lucky to have parents who could kind of, like, be there with you and be there for your rehearsals and performances. And I'm curious. I know there's some big age gaps, so it might have been different, but how did your siblings react to your performing at such a young age?

Caleb McLaughlin (19:36)

Oh, they were especially my older siblings, because before my younger sister came into the picture, they were. Influenced me in dancing and music. They opened my music palette a lot. So even though we had talk about it being like a. Like a rivalry, and it's not really. It's just, you know, when we have. When it comes down to, like, jokes at Thanksgiving. It's like, all right, us against the old. The older ones, the millennials, you know.

Sophie Ansari (20:01)

Millennials said with so much.

Penn Badgley (20:04)

I know. It's becoming a dirtier and dirtier word.

Podcast Host / Narrator (20:06)

Millennial.

Penn Badgley (20:08)

I remember when millennial used to mean, you're young and the coolest.

Nava Kavilan (20:11)

Literally, don't worry, it'll happen to your husband.

Caleb McLaughlin (20:14)

I know, I know. So funny. But, yeah, they. They influenced my music taste, and they put me. They honestly, like, put me on to a lot of different stuff. Especially, I. Sometimes I feel like I grew up in the 2000s and I. I was alive, but I didn't grow up in that era. So I kind of thank my older siblings for kind of putting me on to, like, the hits of that era.

Nava Kavilan (20:38)

Caleb, we have a couple of classic questions we ask everyone. So one is if you remember sort of your first experiences around, like, a big crush or infatuation and your first heartbreak. And then the other is if you have, like, a particularly embarrassing story or memory from middle school, high school.

Caleb McLaughlin (20:56)

Okay, there was this. So in pre K, this is the first crush I got. I remember this name was Savannah. I loved Savannah. I was like, just head over heels for her. And what's so cool, though, is that she knows this. And I met up with her and a lot of other my pre K classmates when I was 18, and, oh, wow. I said this in another interview. She's like, I saw your interview. My friend said.

Sophie Ansari (21:25)

I was like, yeah, I can't say anything anymore, Caleb.

Caleb McLaughlin (21:29)

I know. Literally. I know. That was. That was. I was in. In literally in diapers, just head over heels.

Sophie Ansari (21:37)

Was that her first time? Like, was that the first time she found out that you had been head over heels for her in pre K, or did she know before?

Caleb McLaughlin (21:43)

I think so. I think that's. I think that's. I mean, that's what she told me. I don't think she remembered. Yeah, I just remembered. I don't think I. I don't think I've ever spoke to her either. That's.

Penn Badgley (21:55)

Well, you barely knew how to speak.

Caleb McLaughlin (21:58)

Yeah, that's so. That's so true. I just remember always being like. Like, hey, you want a snack? I was just.

Penn Badgley (22:04)

That's a big deal.

Caleb McLaughlin (22:05)

Yeah, it was. And she was like, thank you.

Nava Kavilan (22:07)

So sweet.

Sophie Ansari (22:08)

Yes, I like to take my rations.

Nava Kavilan (22:11)

Yeah, really sweet. What about your first heartbreak?

Caleb McLaughlin (22:15)

First heartbreak?

Penn Badgley (22:16)

Oh, that was kindergarten.

Caleb McLaughlin (22:20)

Yeah, that was kindergarten. Oh, I remember I was in a dance class. There was this girl I really liked, and I had a crush on her, and I didn't know she. And I was like. I was like, single digits still. I'm not sure what age it was, but I had a really big crush on her. Liked her a lot. And then I think it was like a week of just knowing her, getting to know her or whatever. And then like a week later, some guy came to the class and I was like, who's this? And then someone told me that was her boyfriend, and I cried.

Penn Badgley (22:56)

Oh, so you think you're probably like maybe nine, right?

Caleb McLaughlin (23:00)

Yeah, probably. Probably nine. Maybe five.

Penn Badgley (23:04)

This is a big difference between nine and five.

Caleb McLaughlin (23:06)

I know. It's a pretty big difference.

Penn Badgley (23:08)

Also, boyfriends at.

Caleb McLaughlin (23:10)

I know. My life is over. She's gonna marry you?

Penn Badgley (23:14)

Well, no, but I mean, I guess I'm just surprised. Like, who. Who's having a boyfriend at five? But I guess. I guess the way kids are constantly.

Nava Kavilan (23:22)

Visit her in ballet.

Penn Badgley (23:23)

I don't.

Caleb McLaughlin (23:23)

Cool girl. I know. I guess it was like the whole, you know, the school was like. There were so many different classes. And then I guess he was in another class and he was just like, bring her a snack.

Penn Badgley (23:36)

An older boy, five and a half.

Caleb McLaughlin (23:39)

And I was like, wait, no, I know this scene. No.

Penn Badgley (23:43)

So how about. How about, you know. So that. That is. That is. That is really funny and sweet. As the. As you get older, the stakes get higher. And particularly around that age, 12, 13, 14, you know, that's when. Now this is actually when you were on Stranger Things and so your life had substantially changed. So that does what we find with, you know, like myself, young actors, you don't always get to have then the same set of experiences. But then, of course, there's these universal things. So even though. Even though your environment had greatly changed and it probably wasn't in school, how about, you know, as you matured now, you know, you're welcome to plead the fifth because. Because post. Post Stranger Things and post Fame, you know, revealing details has a different. Has a different stakes to it. But do you have as you. As you got older, like those more formative, like kind of first love, first. First heartbreak kind of stories or first, like super duper cringe, like awkward, like, you know.

Caleb McLaughlin (24:46)

Yes and no. It's weird not saying. I'm. I'm not trying to even hold anything back because I was in this, like, being on the show kind of, and just how I worked and how my fam. My family is. I was just very, like, not coddled, but like, it was kind of like work.

Penn Badgley (25:06)

Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (25:07)

And then, you know, I. You know, I've had Crushes. I've talked to, you know, girls and I mean I, I've only been in one relationship and that was when I was like 19. But up until that point it was just like a lot of like crushes talking. Nothing, nothing really deep. Maybe, maybe, maybe you know, you got ghosted or something. You know, after like a week it was like, all right, that's enough.

Penn Badgley (25:36)

That actually sounds pretty healthy and refreshing to be honest. We don't need to be so young to get our hearts broken.

Sophie Ansari (25:41)

I was just curious. I, I, like Penn said, I think that's probably really healthy to have your first relationship around 19. And I'm curious if your parents had anything to do with that. Was that all like self led or did your parents have any guidance for you around navigating crushes and relationships?

Caleb McLaughlin (26:01)

Yeah, 100. They, I mean I, I tell them about every crush I, I have. That's cute. Yeah. And honestly, I'm pretty open and honest with them. I'm like, there's nothing that they shouldn't know. Like, very, very open to everything from, to my first kiss to whatever love life, you know, love life situation. So I can just get advice because I admire their relationship a lot because they've, they're like, they've known each other since my mom was like 21 and my dad was 18. So then their whole story is pretty wonderful and beautiful and they're old and loving each other up still. So I always want to ask them. Yeah. Like they're like before they met one another, like how was it dating growing up and you know, all of that. And I think for me, I just never, not that I'm not into dating because I think it's great. I love meeting people. I love meeting new people and you know, kind of just learning myself as well and, and then. Yeah. So I think I didn't really, of course I've been like, not heartbroken like, oh my gosh, but like, oh man, that was cool talking to that person, you know, or, or some. But like I haven't been into something really deep to where I'm like, oh my gosh, we did all of these things and now this happened. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I think I'm just starting, I'm getting into the game.

Penn Badgley (27:25)

That's actually very cool. It makes me think that actually the whole premise of this show might be very millennial.

Gretchen Rubin (27:31)

Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (27:31)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (27:32)

Gen Z's are like, yeah, it's not that deep, man. Sorry.

Caleb McLaughlin (27:34)

Yeah, I, I'm not saying because I also don't want people to think like, wow, he doesn't talk to anyone. But I've had situations where it's been great. But not no one that has been in my life like, oh, this is my girlfriend, family. And that was only one person.

Sophie Ansari (27:54)

And we'll be right back.

Podcast Host / Narrator (27:58)

If you have got travel coming up, visiting family, heading abroad maybe, or maybe you've got a dreamtrip for the new year. Imagine feeling confident greeting people where you're going in their own language. Rosetta Stone makes it easy to feel more connected and have a richer experience wherever you go. With 30 years of experience, millions of users and 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German, Japanese and more, Rosetta Stone is the go to tool for real language growth. Rosetta Stone fits your lifestyle with flexible on the go learning. You're able to access lessons from your desktop or mobile app whether you have five minutes or an hour. For me, my 16, nearly 17 year old, he is now in, I think Spanish three. He could speak probably nearly fluent Spanish if he had someone in the house to speak Spanish with. I really want to be able to deliver on this. I would love to have, well, you know, deep conversations in English and maybe we can order food in Spanish. That's where we'll have to start naturally. Rosetta Stone has been really helpful for doing just that. I love how their True Accent feature gives real time feedback on my pronunciation.

Penn Badgley (29:13)

It's helping me feel a little bit.

Podcast Host / Narrator (29:16)

More confident, sometimes a lot more confident in my Spanish speaking abilities.

Penn Badgley (29:20)

Don't wait.

Podcast Host / Narrator (29:21)

Unlock your language learning potential. Now Podcrust listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com podcrushed to get started and claim your 50% off today. Give a gift that keeps giving. Go to rosettastone.com podcrust and start learning.

Sophie Ansari (29:46)

When it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people really love. I mean, what's the point? Otherwise it's just more stuff. But Quinn's has beau timeless pieces that people are going to wear for years. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Quince has something for everyone. It's got leather jackets, silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut denim for everyday wear and outerwear that actually keeps you warm but still looks good. Their Italian wool coats are a standout for me. Beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and crafted to last for seasons. I have one in my shopping cart right now Because I have been the type of person who when I get invited to go to like a dinner or go out at night and it's cold, I'm stuck. I have nothing nice to wear. I've got like a nice outfit on and then it's ruined by an ugly puffer jacket. And so it's about time. I'm 31. I need to step it up in life. I need to have a beautiful coat. And so I'm going for one of these quince Italian wool coats that are just classic but beautiful. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.com podcrust for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com podcrust to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com podcrust There are lots of people.

Julia Louis Dreyfus (Ad Voice) (31:18)

Right now focusing on hitting their protein goals. Maybe they want to help build and maintain muscle or recover after a workout. At the same time, life can get pretty busy. That's why so many people are looking for easy protein packed options. And this one actually delivers ratio protein. Yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup, making ratio the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle. That's more protein than four whole eggs plus zero added sugar. You get a complete protein with all nine essential amino acids, zero grams of added sugar and real staying power. It's protein that can help your body build and repair tissues, making it an easy post workout snack or just a midday keep going moment. Not only is it packed with protein, but ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture so there's no need to compromise. Great taste when hitting protein goals. It's the kind of thing that slip right into a chaotic day. No cooking, no cleanup, just open eat and you're on your way to hitting your protein goals without having to worry about baking yet another chicken breast. Ratio does the math so you don't have to head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you.

Nava Kavilan (32:35)

You seem like a person of faith and I'm curious. I heard you say in an interview like, like I'm not just spiritual, I'm religious. Which I loved because I feel like a lot of people want to say they're spiritual even if they are religious because that's more acceptable. I'm also religious and spiritual.

Penn Badgley (32:50)

We're all religious.

Nava Kavilan (32:51)

We're all religious. And I was curious what role faith has played in, like, keeping you grounded, because you seem really grounded. And I'm guessing that it's not just coming from your family that it might also be about your faith. So if you're.

Caleb McLaughlin (33:02)

Thank you so much. It definitely isn't. My dad is a reverend, actually, so I grew up in the. Yeah. I'm a PK kid. I mean, he didn't even force.

Penn Badgley (33:13)

PKs can be crazy.

Caleb McLaughlin (33:15)

For real. I know. And I. I wouldn't say I'm a crazy pk. He didn't force religion or church on me or God on me. He would go to church. He would ask us if we wanted to go to church, and we didn't want to go to church. We wouldn't force us to. And I kind of found my own relationship with God and, like, even my faith this year, actually.

Podcast Host / Narrator (33:36)

This year.

Penn Badgley (33:37)

Well, I was gonna say maybe I.

Podcast Host / Narrator (33:38)

Jumped in too soon.

Penn Badgley (33:39)

I was about. Like, when did you find that. Yeah. That relationship for yourself?

Caleb McLaughlin (33:42)

My release, like, from the beginning, like.

Penn Badgley (33:44)

Was the opening night of Lion King when you were like, please don't let me fall 20ft to my death.

Nava Kavilan (33:49)

It's like, God's got me.

Caleb McLaughlin (33:52)

God, today's the day. No, but. No. Yeah. I mean, I've always felt a connection with God in my spirit, for. I can't even remember the day it started. I just. Oh. It was just always been a part of me. It's always been part of me. But I think there's a different. It's always a different level to it, because I feel like sometimes you. You live your life, and you kind of, like, get into the world a little bit, and then you. You kind of stop praying sometimes, and you're like, all right, I'm praying before I go to sleep.

Penn Badgley (34:20)

All right.

Caleb McLaughlin (34:20)

And then you wake up. Great. But then you have those moments like, wait, I need to pray and talk to God. Yeah, sit down and, like, ground yourself. And that was a lot. Lot. I did that a lot this summer, and I went to church a lot with my family, and I deleted Instagram and got on social media, and it just started, like, you know, grounding myself a little bit more and talking to God more, and it's been really replenishing, stepping into this next level in my life as an adult. My frontal lobe is almost closing, so I. I was like, let me.

Penn Badgley (34:51)

So you're like, hey, God, listen, listen, I. I'm back. Okay.

Nava Kavilan (34:55)

Let's accomplish a few things before the brain is sealed.

Caleb McLaughlin (34:58)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (34:58)

You know, wait, that's actually. Is that possibly because you're. You're. You're I mean, you are at. Now at the transition of a. Of a huge chapter closing. You know, I mean, the show, you've finished filming, but, like, the show hasn't come out yet. I know what that's like. I've been through it a few times where you have a big show, it's not really over until the thing comes out. In a way, it almost is like you can start this kind of this, you know, the processing, whatever it is, but it's. But it's like you're really in a transitional phase. Were you conscious of that? Is that why the summer went the way that it did, or.

Caleb McLaughlin (35:32)

Yeah, no, I think it just. It went. I just followed my spirit, honestly. And I think. I think the spirit knows what, what chapters in your life are closing and what are open. What's. What. What is opening. And I think I'm just preparing for whatever that is. You know what I mean? I'm happy.

Penn Badgley (35:50)

Spirit knows the spirit of Elder. This man is saying one of the wisest things we've had on the entirety of the podcast from one of our youngest guests.

Nava Kavilan (35:58)

I actually loved your use of the word replenishing because just this morning I was thinking, like, I haven't been praying as much as I used to in other seasons of life, and I was feeling, like, guilty about it. But I think sometimes the guilt becomes a barrier, or you can feel like, oh, I have to catch up. But the divine forces are so strong that, I mean, you should be steadfast and steady. But also sometimes it can be like a. A, like an instant replenishing. Like, it is such a different power source than we're used to. So I feel like that's the perfect word.

Caleb McLaughlin (36:25)

It's. No. Yeah, it is very replenishing. I. It's like sometimes you get so caught up in relying on worldly desires of just, like, people's validation and, oh, hanging out with this friend. And what do you think about this outfit or something? Just to the smallest things. But. But when you're able to sit down and ground yourself and pray and knowing that God is listening, it's actually like that's like the foundation. Like, that's the. That's what you can rely on any time of the day, any time of the year. And that's. That's where I had to. I had to go back. I had to go to that place. Not that I lost it. I just had to understand what that was. And even outside of my career, but just who I am. That's who I am. Like, from the Beginning of time. So, like, I couldn't. I. I had to just, like, as a kid, it was just. I don't know, it was just easier to just be like, yeah. Like, I know. Like, yeah, this. Like, I'm good. Like, I didn't overthink a lot of things. Now I'm older, I'm like, okay, I gotta pay bills. All right. I gotta do this, I gotta do that. And sometimes you get so caught up in, like, thinking that those. When you're. Let me explain it this way. When your world. When you start. I feel like knowledge. Okay. Let me. Let me make myself make sense. There is. Someone said this to me. I'm sorry, we're gonna cut this part out.

Penn Badgley (37:50)

No, it's staying just as it is. This is good. This is good material.

Caleb McLaughlin (37:55)

This is great.

Penn Badgley (37:56)

Yeah. Don't worry. Keep going.

Caleb McLaughlin (37:58)

There's something about not knowing is so rich.

Penn Badgley (38:00)

When you say not knowing, do you mean not knowing what?

Caleb McLaughlin (38:03)

When you're oblivious to life. Thank you. Okay. My brain is working now. Now when you're oblivious, like when you're a kid and it's just like, okay, I wake up, I play, I go to school and do what I want. Ah. Oh, yes. And then as a kid, I prayed and I believed in God, and I was like, yeah. And I was happy all the time.

Penn Badgley (38:18)

Maybe it wasn't tested. Is that what you're saying?

Caleb McLaughlin (38:20)

Yeah. No, exactly. And your parents are doing everything for you. Your laundry and, ma, can I go to McDonald's? And you're doing it, but then as. And then you get older, and then there's politics, and then there's. Oh, you start understanding yourself in what the world is and how the world perceives you. And then you're. And then you're getting older and you're figuring out yourself. And then. Then you're like, okay, what is everyone else doing? And. And you start internalizing different things, and then you start seeing what's going on, going on around the world, and you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm being selfish. I have to be. I have to be this good person. I have to care about others as well. I don't. Why am I complaining about my day when this happened to this person? And then people are telling you how to feel about yourself. Or, you know, people are projecting to. Projecting, and it's. It's just so many stories that you can. You. You have in your head and so much life that it kind of just becomes overwhelming. And now that I feel like they're like, the knowledgeable Person sometimes could be like. It could be like depressing. Not depressing, but like more, you know, the more upset you are. And if you. If you get what I'm saying.

Penn Badgley (39:37)

Yeah, yeah. There's some definite truth to that. I think that's where coming to terms with what we call maybe the adult world, the mature world, I think it takes. There's a period of like, probably disillusionment. There's a period of maybe what feels like the breaking of a bubble or the ruining of fantasy. But then to me, you know, one thing that you might discover as you get older, which to me, like, this happened on my 30th birthday. It was just sort of like a veil had been lifted and I felt lighter and some of the wonder really began returning to the world that had left maybe for like my older youth, if that makes sense. But something also occurs to me, you're talking about having this very carefree youth. I mean, not for nothing, like that's great to hear, but you also were working and you were working at a very high level on one of the world's most successful franchises of the last decade. And I don't want to make any generalizations because the only other person we've had on is Gaten. But if you two are representative of anything that was maybe the vibe on set or the experiences you were all having, there is something I have to say that is incredibly like bright and positive and warm and pure about the way at least you two sort of reflect on the time and the times that you had there. So I'm curious, like, you know, did you not feel like some of the more typical pressures that you might hear from child actors, not just in general, but with stranger things? Like, what was the. What I mean, I guess walk us through, like how you started out. What was the audition process like? And then what was it like as you shot and then as it became a phenomenon?

Caleb McLaughlin (41:30)

I know I. My agent sent in an audition about this show called Montauk that they're trying to develop and they want to reference like 80s films like stand By Me, Goonies, Jaws, all like the 80s, like, and E.T. just like the supernatural thriller, sci fi thing. And. And I did some sides and I got a call back from that. Then I went into New York City to do a in person audition. And then from there I got a call back and had a Zoom, actually a Skype with the Duffer Brothers to go to get like an invitation to do a chemistry read in la. And when I met them on Zoom of Skype for the first time him. They told me Gayton actually got the role. He was, like, the first person casted. Yeah.

Nava Kavilan (42:21)

Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (42:21)

And they were like, hey, buddy. Like, I was like, hey, how are you? Nice to meet you. Like, love your tape. Like, yeah, thank you so much. Like, where are you from? Like, New York? I just remember just going through the whole thing.

Sophie Ansari (42:33)

How old were you?

Caleb McLaughlin (42:34)

10 years old. No, lying. I'm lying. I'm lying.

Penn Badgley (42:39)

You're 13.

Caleb McLaughlin (42:40)

I was like, my. I know. I'm, like, getting. Mixing up the timelines. I'm just lying. Thirteen. I was 13.

Sophie Ansari (42:46)

Thirteen.

Caleb McLaughlin (42:46)

Thirteen years old.

Nava Kavilan (42:47)

Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (42:47)

And they told me that just kind of gave me an understanding of what was going on and what they wanted to do with the show and the process of it all and who. Who I had to be meeting and that Gay and Matt already got casted for Dustin. And I was like, oh, wait, I know that guy. I. I know him on Broadway. Yeah. So they were like, really? I was like, yeah, we were. We were both on Broadway. He was in Les Miz and. And I was in Lion King. And we sometimes would hang out at this Broadway park where all the kids would hang out at. And that.

Nava Kavilan (43:15)

That's so cool.

Caleb McLaughlin (43:16)

Yes, super cool. So I was like, oh, I. And when I heard that, I was like, oh, I have to get this. I like that guy. That guy is so sick.

Penn Badgley (43:22)

Oh, that's awesome.

Caleb McLaughlin (43:23)

I met him at the Broadway park, and there's these, like, you know, like. Well, there's these, like, stairs going up to, like, the, like, this tented area of this, like, the jungle gym. And there's, like, kids surrounding him. But then, like, I was walking up the stairs and, like, the. They parted ways, and he's just, like, dancing in the circle. They were being games. And I walk in the circle. I'm like, hey. And he's like, hey, you want to see something cool? And then he does this, like, shoulder trick. And then I'm like, oh, shoot. And he's like, wait. Then he starts singing. And he starts singing Jason Derulo's Wiggle Wiggle. He's like. And he starts dancing. It does. Like. It was amazing. And he's.

Penn Badgley (44:06)

All right.

Caleb McLaughlin (44:07)

Later. I was like, wow, that guy's amazing. He loves Jason. Yeah. So that was my first.

Nava Kavilan (44:12)

The greatest story I've ever heard. This so much great.

Caleb McLaughlin (44:17)

And I remember it vividly. And it's so funny that we're in this world together and, you know, growing up with one another on the show and I'm able to share, like, my introduction to who Gaten was so that, that was pretty sick.

Penn Badgley (44:31)

Did you two have a particular bond because you were coming from the same world?

Caleb McLaughlin (44:34)

Yes. Yes. 100 I. We definitely had a particular bond because our parents were really co. Cool. And, and then just Broadway and you know, Broadway is not a lot of, it's a, it's a, it's a select few people that love Broadway. You know, you have your like Broadway musical theater theatrical. The lovers. So knowing that like going into Stranger Things like, oh, this is another broad. Okay. So I know how to work with him. He's a, I know his type of work ethic and the bond. And then also our parents were really cool. I knew Sadie prior to the show as well.

Podcast Host / Narrator (45:08)

Really?

Caleb McLaughlin (45:08)

Yeah. She was in On Broadway. She was in Annie and we hung out the same park. Yeah. I remember playing wow.

Sophie Ansari (45:15)

This park is like.

Nava Kavilan (45:16)

Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (45:16)

A good place for recruiting.

Caleb McLaughlin (45:18)

Literally. Yeah.

Penn Badgley (45:19)

Recruiting nine year olds.

Nava Kavilan (45:23)

To be television series Sci Fi.

Caleb McLaughlin (45:26)

We used to plan to go seek out this Marriott where the moms would hang out at while their kids were at shows. And like in between shows we would go there and like play hide and go seek on like the 8th floor of this Marriott in Times Square.

Penn Badgley (45:39)

That sounds really fun.

Caleb McLaughlin (45:40)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (45:40)

It's like I can feel the vibe. You know, like that's sort of the, the, I guess the subculture of these Broadway kids. That's cool.

Caleb McLaughlin (45:49)

Yeah, it is. It is really cool.

Nava Kavilan (45:50)

I have two questions. Who's your favorite character and whose death hurt you the most?

Caleb McLaughlin (45:55)

Okay. My favorite character, it was like Dustin is definitely like my favorite character or Steve and then actually re watching the whole series. Nancy's a really good character. Just how she, how she's a leader.

Penn Badgley (46:15)

Yeah. From the jump she's really like, she has integrity.

Caleb McLaughlin (46:18)

Yeah. Just great integrity and just taking the, taking charge. Even her like from the beginning she was like, like handy with the, the weapons. Like I'll take the shot. Oh, shoot.

Penn Badgley (46:30)

She's pretty stellar.

Caleb McLaughlin (46:31)

Yeah. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'd say probably Dustin though. Dustin's so funny. Gain plays him so well.

Nava Kavilan (46:40)

It's true.

Caleb McLaughlin (46:41)

He's great.

Sophie Ansari (46:42)

Can I know a little bit more about. Because as we're talking about characters, I'm like, oh my God, there's so many. And I'm going through some of them in my head and I, I'm forgetting her character's name at the moment. But the, the, your little sister.

Caleb McLaughlin (46:52)

Yes. Eric.

Sophie Ansari (46:53)

One of my favorite characters. Erica. Yeah, she's great. Every time she's on screen I'm laughing.

Penn Badgley (46:58)

No, she's amazing.

Caleb McLaughlin (46:59)

She's so good. Yeah. Priya is wonderful. I love working with Priya, as we literally have, like, a sibling dynamic off screen as well. So. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. She's.

Julia Louis Dreyfus (Ad Voice) (47:09)

That's cute.

Nava Kavilan (47:09)

Really sweet. And then whose death across the series has hurt you the most was most like Bob.

Caleb McLaughlin (47:16)

Bob in season two.

Sophie Ansari (47:17)

That was rough.

Caleb McLaughlin (47:18)

That was so rough. That. That. That's the one that got me the most because. Yeah, yeah, he. Bob comes out of the. Like, he. He makes it out, and then he looks at Joyce and he's, like, looking at her, and then the demagogue demodogs jump on him and, like, eat his stomach out.

Penn Badgley (47:34)

That's right. Oh, yeah, they. That's. Yeah, that's one of the most grizzly deaths as well. They were like, we're gonna eviscerate Bob.

Caleb McLaughlin (47:40)

Literally.

Penn Badgley (47:41)

We are gonna do it.

Caleb McLaughlin (47:42)

Literally, it. Oh, man.

Sophie Ansari (47:45)

If you look back on these many seasons of Lucas, what part of his journey or what part of his storyline feels the most meaningful to you?

Caleb McLaughlin (47:54)

I think his. His journey with Max, I think, because when you see him in season one, he's, like, very boisterous, a skeptical person. That's like, you guys not understanding anything I'm saying. I'm trying to. Like, he's always just trying to get his point across or get someone to understand. You see him in season two, where from season two to, like, season three and season four, he's. He's the same person, but, like, Max has kind of, like, touched the soft side in. In him, and you could tell she's probably someone that understands him and he understands her and understands her plight in her life because of her story of coming from California and moving to this town and feeling left out. Out. And, you know, like, we already feel left out as a. Like, as a. As a crew. Like, we're the nerds. We're the, you know, misfits. Right. But there's something about Max that probably scratches his brain the right way that he's just, like, he'll do anything for her, and I love that for. I love that Lucas kind of, like, steps outside of himself in the series and will risk his life for her and, you know, just, you know, is very, very. Like, he doesn't know how to be the right. The perfect boyfriend, but wants to be the best boyfriend. You know, like, he's not the perfect boyfriend, but he, you know, he. He's willing to do anything and to make it. To make it work.

Penn Badgley (49:16)

Yeah. Was it gratifying for you as a young actor to also feel like your character is Getting to have just this added dimension and new experiences. Because having a. Having a romantic interest does. It does introduce like, you know, something new. Something new that is mature where you're ha. You just. You just have like a different level of material. Was that like, also something that you appreciated?

Caleb McLaughlin (49:35)

Yeah, no, I did. I didn't even understand it until now. I think it always felt like a. Like I. Not that I understand it, but it always felt like a. Like, okay, Max and Lucas are together, but a friendship, because they did like, Mike and eleven have this romantic relationship where they're. They're very lovey dovey and they're always talking.

Penn Badgley (49:54)

That's true. Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (49:54)

And Max and Lucas are. Lucas is always just trying to like, make up for his mistakes and they're having fun. And like, how they met, like, Max is so cool. He. She played.

Julia Louis Dreyfus (Ad Voice) (50:06)

She.

Caleb McLaughlin (50:06)

How they met was at the arcade. She beat his highest. Their high score and he's like, whoa, this girl's awesome. So she was like one of the guys. And then he, like, she became like his love interest and they started, you know, then they became a thing. But then I. And then she just. That he's just trying to correct every. Every moment he, like, messes up. Like in season three. One of my favorite moments is when he's trying to give Mike advice about, like, to. To 11. He's like, dude, just chill. Like, Max broke. Like, I think 11 breaks not. I think 11 breaks up with Mike. And he's like, dude, it's okay. You know how many times Max broke up with me? She broke me five times. You know how many times I got her back? I got her back every single freaking time. So you have to just listen to me and it'll be all good. Like, it's. It's a very, very funny, funny dynamic.

Sophie Ansari (50:53)

It's true. There's something like, like, you know, Mike and 11 have this like, tumultuous. Their relationship is more. More mature in some ways. But then I feel like Max and Lucas show this other side of love, which is like, they're like, listen, we're married.

Caleb McLaughlin (51:09)

We're. We're. We're.

Penn Badgley (51:10)

We're always going to be together.

Caleb McLaughlin (51:11)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (51:12)

Like, we're figuring it out. We, you know, we know how to work through dysfunction. We have a lot of it.

Caleb McLaughlin (51:16)

We'll show you. Exactly. Literally. Literally it. And it's. It's so. It's so funny. It's. Max is getting mad at Lucas for the smallest things and literally, like an old married couple. That's very true. Very true.

Nava Kavilan (51:29)

Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (51:30)

So cute.

Penn Badgley (51:30)

Yeah. Whereas I think, like, Mike and eleven, they're more like Romeo and Juliet.

Sophie Ansari (51:33)

They're like, yeah, yeah.

Penn Badgley (51:37)

And 11 is Christ or something. And it's like, you know. Oh, it's. Yeah, the drama's high. You speak about this, Caleb, like you're.

Podcast Host / Narrator (51:50)

It's.

Penn Badgley (51:51)

It's really lovely. You speak about the show like you just love it.

Caleb McLaughlin (51:54)

I do.

Penn Badgley (51:55)

Like, you really love it and that you've loved being a part of it. What. What can you say that it's.

Podcast Host / Narrator (52:04)

Like.

Penn Badgley (52:04)

How does it feel to be finally saying goodbye to this, to this world, to the character, to the world, to the people that you're working with? You know, I mean, it's been, what, 10. Was it 10 years?

Caleb McLaughlin (52:17)

10 more, maybe. 10 years.

Penn Badgley (52:19)

10 years, yeah. I mean, that's like, for anybody, that's a really long time to be on, like, say, one project. Like, if, you know, if you have a normal job, it's like you're working on that. That file for 10 years, you know, or whatever. It's like, I mean, you know, that's. That's. That's a lot. And then for somebody so young, it's half your life.

Caleb McLaughlin (52:37)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (52:38)

How does. How's that. How's that feeling? I mean, like, how.

Caleb McLaughlin (52:41)

You know, to be honest with you, I'm still processing the feelings. It's a part of the foundation of my life. 13 is the year when you're like, oh, I'm a teenager. This is. This is the adolescent's years. These are the years you grow and what you do and the decisions you make. You like who. It's the foundation of who you are. And from 13 to now, I've been on the show, and it's shaped me and has molded me to the man I am today. And it's like. Like, it's a big part of my life, something I won't forget, you know, and something I can never say. Oh, I'm like, there's. There's always that one point, one moment. Like, oh, no, I'm not Lucas. I'm Caleb. And I'm like, yeah, but you did create the character in your growing. The growing parts of your. Your life. And I, I. I am Lucas. I have the. He's a part of me in a way. And, like, that's how I, like, learning myself. I was learning Lucas at the same time. Like, I had to put myself to the side to learn Lucas. Right.

Penn Badgley (53:39)

Yeah, that's a good point.

Caleb McLaughlin (53:40)

As an actor, you can't, like, think about, what does Caleb want to do? Like, there's a lot of things I wouldn't do as Caleb that Lucas would do. So sometimes I would shut out Caleb for Lucas, and he's become this person in my life. And it's just, it's a deep. It's a deep feeling. It's a deep, like, journey. I mean, we were at the premiere yesterday and like, at the premiere, I'm looking at everyone, I'm like, wow, I really grew up with these guys. We went around the world, we went to Korea, we were in Japan, and then we were in London, and we're in LA and ordering room service.

Podcast Host / Narrator (54:15)

That's wild.

Caleb McLaughlin (54:17)

We went to school together, but in different classes and curriculums. It's so unorthodox experience.

Nava Kavilan (54:25)

Stick around. We'll be right back.

Julia Louis Dreyfus (Ad Voice) (54:32)

This episode of Wiser Than Me is brought to you by the Cancer Guard Test from the makers of the cologuard test. Nearly 70% of cancers diagnosed have no routine screening, including some of the most aggressive, like pancreatic, ovarian, liver, esophageal, stomach and lung cancers. Cancer Guard helps address this unmet need and complements existing recommended screening to expand the ability to help detect more cancers earlier. Cancer Guard is a simple blood test that helps screen for over 50 cancer types and subtypes even before symptoms appear. When treatment may be more effective, the Cancer Guard test helps you take proactive steps for your health with confidence and peace of mind. Talk to your doctor about Cancer Guard to see if the test is right for you, or visit cancerguard.com for more information and to connect with a telehealth provider. You can also give the gift of peace of mind this holiday with a Cancer Guard gift card@cancerguard.com cancer this test is not recommended for individuals who have had cancer in the last three years or are pregnant, and it is not a replacement for recommended screening. The Cancer Guard test may be HSAFSA eligible.

Gretchen Rubin (55:43)

Hello, I'm Gretchen Rubin. And I'm Lori Gottlieb. We're two friends, one a happiness researcher and the other a therapist, and we are here to tackle the problems of everyday life with all of you, from.

Julia Louis Dreyfus (Ad Voice) (55:54)

Big issues to to small.

Gretchen Rubin (55:55)

We'll share advice and fresh perspectives, and.

Caleb McLaughlin (55:57)

We'Ll also highlight responses from you, our.

Gretchen Rubin (56:00)

Listeners to the questions we discuss. Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or just something you've always wondered about, we'll talk it through the since you.

Caleb McLaughlin (56:09)

Asked podcast from Lemonada media premieres on September 23rd.

Sophie Ansari (56:13)

Wherever you get your podcasts I read.

Nava Kavilan (56:17)

That a few of the cast members were nervous that the finale, the final season might have the same reception as Game of Thrones, where people, like, hated it.

Caleb McLaughlin (56:25)

Yeah.

Nava Kavilan (56:26)

So now that you've read all the scripts, you filmed it, how do you feel about how the plane was landed?

Caleb McLaughlin (56:30)

Yeah, Yeah, I think, you know, you know, with t. I mean, like, you know, I guess, you know, people that. What do you call it? Like, not titles, but people take one snippet of someone, make it seem their headlines. Thank you. Yeah, headlines.

Penn Badgley (56:44)

No, we're gonna clip this. And at Netflix, the account.

Caleb McLaughlin (56:46)

I know, I know. Please.

Penn Badgley (56:47)

And if there's anybody who can do it, it's me.

Caleb McLaughlin (56:51)

Literally, you can.

Penn Badgley (56:52)

Literally.

Caleb McLaughlin (56:54)

But I. I think what it was. It was mis. It was misinterpreted that. That people kind of just put too much pressure on, like, Game of Thrones and, like, their last.

Penn Badgley (57:04)

Well, any show ending. I mean, honestly. Honestly, it is incredibly my show. There's so many people in the comments just like, we hate this. This is you guys. Writers, writers this, writers that. Okay, you go write it. Seriously, bro.

Caleb McLaughlin (57:19)

Literally.

Penn Badgley (57:20)

You write it.

Caleb McLaughlin (57:20)

Literally. And it was one of those. It was just basically saying that, you know, it's like Game of Thrones. It was just critiqued to the, like, people critiqued it so much, and we just, like, going into it, it was like, we don't. Like. There's so many things that we. We. We thought about, like, we wanted. We want people to receive, and then also we want to have a good time doing it and then not worry about what other people think. You know, we came into the show not thinking about what our fans are going to say. We didn't have fans yet yet until the show came out. You know, we thought we came in with each other creating this piece of work. I mean, this piece of art. And it was just more about, like, hoping that the fans would receive it. Not that we had a real fear of having a. A moment of people, like, hating the. The final season or the final episode. But honestly, I think even, like, even if I didn't like, I. And I watched it, and it's amazing. Amazing. The show is so good. Even if I didn't like it, it would. And I'm like, oh, I. I don't think I had in my mind, oh, my gosh, the fans are not gonna like it or if they would like it. I feel like this last season was for. For how I felt in season one. I went into it with a family, a family that I created, and I want to leave with that same love and that same feeling. I feel like all the other seasons were like, yeah, I want the fans to like him. I wonder how they're gonna think even this season. And being going to these events. The fans have been so steadfast and has been there for us for. For a long time. So it's. Of course, I can never not think about the fans. Without the fans, it wouldn't be this experience. So I'm very truly grateful for it. But this last season was for, like, the family that I. That I built. You know, that there's the family and the love that we built the past 10 years. And that's what I thought about. I wanted to make sure everyone was supported and happy in the filming and even in their performances. So. So I. I think when that. When you have that mindset, it doesn't really matter if it ends up being good or. Or not. But I. But I think because everyone came in with that same passion and love in season one is going to be extraordinary.

Podcast Host / Narrator (59:28)

It.

Penn Badgley (59:28)

It strikes me the. The way you speak about it, there must have been a really healthy. Throughout the entirety of this series, there must have been a pretty healthy, like, way that.

Podcast Host / Narrator (59:40)

These.

Penn Badgley (59:40)

These kids, you guys were treated, you know, like, not. You know what I mean? Cause that means that. That means, like, both making sure that you're treated well, but then also, like, not with too exceptional of a treatment, because that can also, I think, for children, be a really strange position to be in. It makes me think that the Duffer Brothers must have given a lot of thought to that, that the older actors must have had. Had some sense that you just.

Caleb McLaughlin (60:07)

Just.

Penn Badgley (60:07)

I mean, it feels to me like you. You. You had something of, like, a culture of healthy mentors around you. Is that. Does that?

Caleb McLaughlin (60:14)

We. We did. Honestly, I think I. I was spoiled being on this set, so going. I've been on other sets, which are great, but this set is. They allowed us to be kids. They allowed us to grow up. They allowed us.

Sophie Ansari (60:26)

So nice.

Caleb McLaughlin (60:26)

They're very nice. Even though we, of course, being actors, being child actors, you're working around adults, and you have to, you know, know, make sure you're on set and doing the right thing and, like, behaving. But there was actually a clip that they showed at Tudum that you guys know about, probably. Yeah, Tudum and Finn, I guess they called Cut. Like, Finn did his in season one, and we were in the basement, and they called Cut. And I'm. I'm watching at, like, Video Village with the Duffers, and I'M just. I just start clapping really loud. I'm like, yo, that was sick. But as Matt and Ross are doing giving him a note, and everyone's like, it's like, it's a normal setting. I'm like, why am I interrupting this note? And I'm just like, yo, dude, that was sick. And I go, give him a pound. And I'm like. And I stand back and I'm just like, yeah, I'm so loud. But the duffers are acting like I'm not saying a thing. And they're just letting Finn do his thing and giving him a note. And like, that's. That's the part about being a kid. And I think that's why the. The dynamic with us was so pure when we were younger, because I honestly, it was a blurred line between being on screen and off screen, like, throughout the seasons. Of course, I got older and it was like, all right, you're. You're an adult. You can't be doing certain things as you did as a kid. You're not going to get that.

Penn Badgley (61:49)

Stop the slow clap.

Caleb McLaughlin (61:50)

Yeah, stop. Stop the slow clap. But, yeah, there was. You just were allowed to be children.

Nava Kavilan (61:57)

We know you have a new project coming up, and we want to give some time to that too. Tell us about goat. We haven't seen it, but we've seen the trailer. And what I was struck by is that there seem to be some common themes between goat and shooting stars. Like the shorter player. It's not called basketball in Goat, but it seems to be a basketball world. You've got LeBron in Shooting Stars. You've got Steph Curry. So just tell us about that.

Caleb McLaughlin (62:22)

He's in Go, and he's produced it.

Penn Badgley (62:23)

Oh, wow. Wow.

Nava Kavilan (62:24)

Yeah. So you're working with all the basketball.

Caleb McLaughlin (62:27)

I know. I feel like I've manifested this.

Penn Badgley (62:30)

What?

Caleb McLaughlin (62:30)

I know.

Penn Badgley (62:31)

That's crazy.

Caleb McLaughlin (62:32)

So sick. Yes.

Podcast Host / Narrator (62:34)

That's.

Nava Kavilan (62:35)

Tell us about Goat. Tell us about your. Your love for the basketball world. Working with these great sort of. Tell us all about that.

Caleb McLaughlin (62:41)

Yeah, I think it's so, like, it's so interesting because even in Stranger Things, I play basketball. That's right.

Penn Badgley (62:47)

That's right.

Caleb McLaughlin (62:48)

Yeah. Season four. I did. But it's interesting because the journeys are different. Like, Lucas went into basketball because he felt like he had to. He was trying to find himself. Midlife crisis. Not midlife crisis, but, you know, midlife crisis. Mid adolescent crisis, literally. And. But like shooting stars, you know, you're playing on a team with LeBron. I mean, but not. But not even. You're playing on the team with LeBron, like, what. What was cool about it is that people didn't know the team that LeBron had. That, like, Drew Joyce, the character I played, he was a part of LeBron's childhood, and LeBron wasn't.

Penn Badgley (63:22)

And seems like a mastermind, too, like, a little bit. Like, I mean, I was shocked by that first scene where he's like. He's the one who got them on this team. I didn't know any of.

Caleb McLaughlin (63:32)

That's what I'm saying. Like, people don't know, like. Like, a lot of these. Like, LeBron's a great player, but, like, in this story, he wasn't like, every. He wasn't the best yet. He wasn't the best. There was a lot of people around him that made him better. You know what I mean? Drew just was the underdog. He was the shorter player that didn't get the opportunity that LeBron had and, you know, in his journey. But, like, with.

Penn Badgley (63:54)

Well, I was. How true is it that he did this, like, you know, this. This big scene you have where you're shooting threes and monologuing, which, by the way, I do. I do want to hear about, like, the pressure on set that day, but, like, is that. Is that how fictionalized is that moment? I mean, did Drew really orchestrate things that way at point one?

Podcast Host / Narrator (64:11)

What age? Like, 15 or something?

Caleb McLaughlin (64:13)

Yeah, No, I heard he was. He was really, like, on it. He was about his business. He was about his business, and he really wanted to make it to the NBA, and he loved basketball. His dad was the coach, and that's, like. He was really disciplined in that area. Like, he was like, that guy. Yeah.

Penn Badgley (64:31)

And he really believed it was important to them to stay together so that they could all support each other and become the best versions of themselves. Is that. And so that they have had the greatest chance of being in the NBA.

Caleb McLaughlin (64:40)

Exactly. I mean, I think what it is is just, like, even going back to the stranger things, like, having the right team and knowing that team could make something of it. And, like, don't, like, don't change what's broken, you know? And, like, he grew up with those guys, and they like the shooting stuff.

Penn Badgley (64:57)

And they trusted him enough to then, like, divert. They were going to go to another school.

Caleb McLaughlin (65:01)

Yeah.

Podcast Host / Narrator (65:01)

That's crazy.

Penn Badgley (65:02)

I mean, that's. Honestly, like, for an origin story, this guy Drew is like a really. He's like a linchpin, literally, in.

Podcast Host / Narrator (65:09)

In.

Penn Badgley (65:09)

In. You know, I mean, LeBron. It's like. I was gonna say I was Gonna make a comparison, but I'm like, no, there's no comparison. Like LeBron.

Caleb McLaughlin (65:16)

No, I know, I know. Yeah. It's crazy. You just, like, hear these stories, and it's. It takes a village to. It takes a village for, like, a story of, like, LeBron's, honestly, like, you know what I mean? You can't do it on your own. And I know. I heard LeBron, like, lived with Dr. A couple. I'm not. I don't want to even. You know what? I'm not gonna even go into deep detail, because I. I don't. I don't really know much, but I know they were just really close. And, like, his dad, like, coached the. The boys, and, like, they, like, looked up to him. Like, that was like their uncle, you know?

Penn Badgley (65:48)

So in this scene where you are, like, the first major scene you have, which is really the first major scene that any character has, like, you. You, as Drew, were, like, staking this claim with. Isn't it Dermot Mull?

Caleb McLaughlin (66:00)

Yeah, yeah.

Podcast Host / Narrator (66:01)

Dermot Mulroney. Yeah.

Penn Badgley (66:02)

Great actor. So you basically, you're like. You're telling him what. Why he should want you all on his varsity team, and he's skeptical. Because of your height, by the way. The skepticism people have around average height people in basketball is insane.

Caleb McLaughlin (66:23)

I know, but. No, but what was funny, though? He was in high school. I think he was four. Eleven. Eleven. Or like.

Penn Badgley (66:28)

Oh, really?

Caleb McLaughlin (66:28)

Yeah, like five foot. So and then in high school, he. Then LeBron was like, five, not five. Like, six. Six already six foot. Wow. He was just really small. I was average height, but he was like. Like 411. So he was really small. But now he is 6 foot, 6 one, though. But at that time, there was. I would understand. He was a twig, though.

Penn Badgley (66:52)

But, yeah, okay. Okay, that's fair.

Caleb McLaughlin (66:54)

Yeah. But there is a clip of him at, like, I think a champion. Not a championship game or a playoff game where he's, like, shooting, like, shots back to back, three shots back to back.

Penn Badgley (67:04)

And so that's what you. So in this scene, I mean, I know that obviously, it's like there's. They can shoot it in a way where you have a chance to make the shots, but it looked like that was really you shooting threes in this monologue. Is that you?

Caleb McLaughlin (67:15)

It was. And you know what's funny? I made every single shot, and I'm not lying. That's crazy.

Nava Kavilan (67:21)

That's amazing.

Caleb McLaughlin (67:22)

I think they were okay because I said, swear on my life. Maybe one I missed, I think, towards the end. But, like, There was. I remember it was a long day, and they were like, you have to make the shots. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna make them. And I made every single. I couldn't believe in myself.

Nava Kavilan (67:37)

That's amazing.

Caleb McLaughlin (67:38)

With the lines and all.

Sophie Ansari (67:39)

Yeah, that was God.

Caleb McLaughlin (67:40)

Literally.

Sophie Ansari (67:41)

That was another prayer.

Caleb McLaughlin (67:41)

Literally. Honestly. Honestly, it was God. Because I was so tired, and they were like, you. You have to make these shots so it could live on screen. And when I was doing the lines. Yeah, I made every single shot around the. The court.

Penn Badgley (67:56)

That's wild. Did anybody. Did anybody. Everyone was like, give you your flowers?

Caleb McLaughlin (68:01)

Because I feel like that it was. It was. It was a lot of gasps. It was a lot of.

Nava Kavilan (68:06)

Yeah, you must have felt so good. You must have felt incredible.

Caleb McLaughlin (68:10)

I felt incredible because we did it again, and, like, you sure you can do it again? And my hand just felt like.

Nava Kavilan (68:15)

Like, watch me.

Caleb McLaughlin (68:16)

Like, my hand was like, yeah, we can do it. I was like, yeah, we can do it. Like, we can do it. I was like, all right, let's do this.

Nava Kavilan (68:23)

I was like, all right.

Caleb McLaughlin (68:24)

My hand just. I don't know, like, something came over me that night. Yeah, it was insane.

Sophie Ansari (68:31)

You're chiming in with little tidbits about the real Drew, and I'm curious. How did you approach playing this role of, like, a person whose story really exists? What kind of, like, research went into it?

Caleb McLaughlin (68:45)

Yeah, meeting him honestly and looking at his mannerisms, like, through YouTube clips, from ending, just talking to him and what. And seeing his demeanor. I think people always say, oh, did, like. Did he like. I taught. I'm more of an observer than, like, actually having a conversation. What would you do in this moment? What would you do in this moment? I think also, what. Because sometimes you know yourself, but you're not going to say everything. Like, you're not going to tell the full truth to, like, who you are. Like. Like, the other day, I'll just, like, gay and told me, like, I am sometimes. I don't laugh at jokes. I'll just say, hilarious. Or I'll just do. And I'll. And I'll make a straight face. And I'm like, I do that. And then the whole cast was like, yeah, you do do that. And I'm like, whoa, I didn't know I was an.

Sophie Ansari (69:29)

Yeah, there's value in just observing.

Caleb McLaughlin (69:31)

Literally, I'm like, oh, okay. And I didn't. But I'm doing it. Not realizing I wouldn't be able to tell somebody. I do that. So going to the other teammates that came on Set. I was like, so how was Drew? And they would tell me stories about him. I'm like, oh, okay, cool. And then looking at his mannerisms on, like, YouTube, like, I. That's how I was able to create the character and seeing how he interacted with, like, other people. And he. It was funny because he even told me he was like, my dude. My God. You started sounding like me. I was scared for a little bit. Like you. I had to, like, look around like, oh, is that me? Like, I was like, wow, that's crazy. That's good. I just. I just observed. So it was. It was an honor to, like, be able to portray his story in that light. But then with Goat, even with the smalls can't ball and the being in the big league, I think what's cool about Goat is that it's visually capturing. Like, it, like, the visuals are stunning. It's the same creators. From Spider verse. Oh, what?

Penn Badgley (70:30)

Oh, wow.

Caleb McLaughlin (70:31)

Yes, from spider Verse. So the visuals are going to be.

Penn Badgley (70:34)

One of the best movies ever.

Caleb McLaughlin (70:35)

One of the best movies ever. And this classic underdog story about just, like, people telling you you can't do it, but in this world is an all animal world, all animal action comedy.

Penn Badgley (70:47)

So the goat can be a goat, which is very.

Caleb McLaughlin (70:49)

Yeah, very, very, very, very cute.

Penn Badgley (70:52)

No, but I'm serious.

Caleb McLaughlin (70:53)

It's.

Penn Badgley (70:53)

It's. I like that. It's like when you make something so literal, it's funny.

Caleb McLaughlin (70:57)

It does.

Sophie Ansari (70:57)

I watched the trailer, and from your first line, I was laughing out loud. I was like, it's honestly, honestly so incredible to me how much someone can convey. Obviously, like, the animators are incredible, and so the visuals do a lot too, but, like, how much someone can convey through their voice. And it just made me curious, like, what was it like for you to. To jump into voice acting after, you know, so many projects that are live action?

Caleb McLaughlin (71:22)

I think I just wanted to expand my range as an actor and understand what that was. And I think voice acting was like, that next thing for me. And because I love animation, like, my. I. I love spider verse. My favorite animation of all time is Kung Fu Panda. I love.

Penn Badgley (71:35)

Oh, yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (71:36)

I love. I. I love. I love, like, anime. I love Jack Black. Like, Jack Black is so funny to me.

Penn Badgley (71:45)

So Jack Black is a mixture of all those things. He is anime. He is animation.

Caleb McLaughlin (71:50)

Literally. Yeah, literally. So I. I was like, you know what? I want to. I want to. I want to do animation. And this came about and then I was like, this is the perfect story. I love basketball and your classic underdog story. But. But my character will is so fun, and his journey to what being great is. Is a fun thing. Fun thing to watch, for sure.

Penn Badgley (72:08)

I'm excited. Did Curry ever come to you and say, listen, this is gonna do a lot better than shooting stars?

Podcast Host / Narrator (72:13)

Just watch.

Penn Badgley (72:17)

He's like, no smoke.

Caleb McLaughlin (72:18)

But that would be so funny because I even thought about it, I was like, wow. I switched teams. I switched sides. Like, in 2016, this would be. I would be like, like, like people. I would be camp.

Penn Badgley (72:32)

You went to the Heat?

Caleb McLaughlin (72:33)

I went to the heat.

Podcast Host / Narrator (72:34)

What?

Caleb McLaughlin (72:34)

You did. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Because 2016, they were golden State warriors and Cavaliers were going at it. They were going at it. LeBron and Stephen Curry were like the. The talks of every finals.

Penn Badgley (72:46)

It's. It's wild. I mean, it's actually. It is crazy that. That you have. I mean, it's.

Caleb McLaughlin (72:52)

There's.

Penn Badgley (72:52)

It's such a small fraction of a chance that somebody could work with both those guys. Yeah. It's just very special.

Caleb McLaughlin (72:59)

Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin (72:59)

Yeah.

Caleb McLaughlin (73:00)

Very special. Very special.

Nava Kavilan (73:01)

I need to send you a wish list of things to pray about for me because I'm feeling like there's a magic in your prayer.

Caleb McLaughlin (73:07)

Okay.

Nava Kavilan (73:08)

You're getting these crazy opportunities.

Caleb McLaughlin (73:10)

Pray for everybody. Pray for everyone.

Penn Badgley (73:13)

Real quick. We want to be respectful of your time, but I do want to talk about Concrete Cowboy, and I just want to commend you on that performance. Thank you. You did some beautiful work in that. It's a beautiful story, you know, so it's kind of like, what was it like to step into a role where, you know, it's rooted in history and social issues and family dynamics? You know, you have the high stakes fantasy, of course, of sci fi and horror, which has its humanity to it, but, like, you know, how was it to step into a role that had such historical significance where you're like, you know. And then working alongside Idris Elba, also Jarel Jerome, friend of the pod he's been on.

Caleb McLaughlin (73:47)

Oh, sick.

Penn Badgley (73:49)

Yeah. Phenomenal actor. So I'm just curious. I'm curious, like, how, you know, just what. What was. What was that like for you as a. Like kind of becoming a young man and maturing as a performer?

Caleb McLaughlin (74:00)

I think that journey is still something to be understood when you step into it at such a young age. You don't realize what you're getting yourself into. I think I didn't realize what I was getting myself into outside of just the art of it. There is a pressure or responsibility you do have, like, as. As this person or this influence sir. Of. In. In your position. And you know, do you just. Do you decide to take on that, that, that mantle or you don't. You know what I mean? Like, do you want to be a good influence to kids or other people? Like, what do you. What do you want to speak up about? What do you not want to speak up about? And it's like you have to pick and choose what you say and how you make people film. And then also like, like with your art, do you. Do you kind of just kind of like there's like a difference between art and then also just like the personality of the celebrity and you're just navigating that and understanding what that is is a very challenging thing because what you do as an actor is not what you're going to do as the actual person. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I'm not. Lucas is great, but I'm not fighting Demogorgon is in the upside down. To differentiate those two do is of course you can. But like, understanding that people won't understand that, it's kind of hard to fathom sometimes. Like, sometimes there's a lot of people that view you in a certain light that don't really understand you and they think they do and there, you know, you have a lot of love that and there's a lot of hate. But you know, sometimes in this position, you just have to understand knowing yourself and having that foundation. Just going back to what we said earlier. Having for me that spiritual foundation, having God in my life. Life is the only thing I keep my eye on because I can't rely on all the other voices, the good or the bad. Of course the good is good is something good to talk about. Right. But sometimes it's all just a blurred line and I have to rely on how I feel about myself and how I think about myself and focus on God, honestly.

Nava Kavilan (76:02)

Beautiful.

Penn Badgley (76:03)

Well, we have our last question, which we ask everybody, if you could go back to 12 year old Caleb, what would you say or do?

Caleb McLaughlin (76:14)

If anything, enjoy the journey that is to come. It's going to be a great one. Don't overthink. Write in your journal all the time. Write in your journal all the time. I did, though. I did, but not as much as I would have wanted to. But write in your journal and enjoy it.

Penn Badgley (76:34)

Thank you for coming on.

Caleb McLaughlin (76:35)

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Penn Badgley (76:36)

It was such a joy to have you.

Sophie Ansari (76:39)

You can see Caleb McLaughlin's new film Goat in theaters starting February 26th. And you can watch season five of Stranger Things on Netflix. Of course. On November 26th, Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to LA Premium yet, now's perfect the time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com. don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music with your tribe membership. Okay, that's all.

Caleb's Mom (77:36)

Bye.

Caleb McLaughlin (77:38)

I'm doing an interview. Thanks, Mom. I know Dave.

Caleb's Mom (77:43)

Mom.

Penn Badgley (77:46)

You can leave it outside the door.

Caleb's Mom (77:47)

Thanks.

Nava Kavilan (77:48)

I don't.

Caleb McLaughlin (77:49)

So funny. Doing a pod cross, guys. One second.

Nava Kavilan (77:54)

Sophie, that's a clip.

Caleb McLaughlin (77:56)

Yes, please. Yes.

Caleb's Mom (77:59)

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ad ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium. On Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make Life Suck Life Less with Fewer Ads With Lemonada Premium, are you looking.

Gretchen Rubin (78:32)

For ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

Caleb McLaughlin (78:50)

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood.

Julia Louis Dreyfus (Ad Voice) (78:54)

Join us as we explore ideas and.

Gretchen Rubin (78:56)

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

Penn Badgley (78:59)

Habits.

Gretchen Rubin (78:59)

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.