Host AMA: Spirituality

Summary

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Podcrushed – Host AMA: Spirituality

Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Episode Date: October 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

This Host AMA centers around spirituality and mysticism as requested by Podcrushed listeners. Penn, Nava, and Sophie, all practicing members of the Baha’i Faith, share their personal mystical experiences, reflect on how spirituality influences their lives, and discuss the big existential questions that have shaped their worldviews. There’s plenty of warmth, humor, thoughtfulness, and a few tongue-in-cheek moments as the hosts seek to be both relatable and real with their audience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening: Why Spirituality?

• [00:22] Penn introduces the topic, prompted by repeated listener queries about the hosts’ faith and spiritual experiences.
  • “We're gonna try to please everybody and offend everybody at the same time.” – Penn [02:44]
• The trio promises to ground the conversation in both rational thought and personal anecdote, aiming to destigmatize spiritual dialogue.

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2. What Is Mysticism?

• [00:57] Penn shares a Hitchens quote about mysticism’s ambiguity, riffing on both the literal and figurative “mist” that surrounds spiritual experiences.
  • Sophie pokes fun: “How does it begin with is? It begins with Ms. No.” [01:34]

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3. Personal Mystical Experiences

A. Sophie’s Story: A Visit from Her Grandfather

• [06:09–11:03]
  • Sophie describes a late-night moment when, after getting ready for bed (with humorous admissions about her pajamas or lack thereof), she sees a vivid image of her deceased grandfather in her hallway.
    • She’s initially shocked and embarrassed: “My grandfather can't see me topless!” – Sophie [08:18]
    • The encounter brings comfort: “I just had this, yeah, this image of him… and it was as if I was allowed to see him. Just for a moment, to know that it was real.” [08:23–08:35]
    • She feels her grandfather's support, especially concerning building community in her new neighborhood, and continues to sense his presence in small, affirming flashes.

B. Penn’s Story: Chaos, Placebos, and a Moment of Clarity

• [11:07–17:51]
  • Penn recounts the night of his stepson’s ninth birthday sleepover—nine rowdy boys, one insomniac comedian, and Penn’s struggle to help everyone get to sleep.
  • A clever placebo (chamomile tea passed off as melatonin) enables calm. Penn meditates in the room, allowing everyone to settle into sleep.
  • As he leaves, Penn is struck by the stretched-out potential of humanity:
    • “It seemed as though the atoms were charged. My heart lifted. Humanity’s potential seemed to stretch out eons before me… Your life. A walking prayer.” [17:18–17:51]
  • It's a subtle, powerful feeling of mystical connection through a simple, everyday act.

C. Nava’s Story: Saved by a Voice During a Riptide

• [17:54–27:18]
  • Nava narrates nearly drowning while swimming alone in Puerto Rico. She is suddenly swept far from shore and feels herself tiring dangerously.
  • She hears an internal but external-feeling voice calmly guide her:
    • “Don’t panic. God is not gonna let you drown. Just do exactly as you’re told.” [20:50]
  • The guidance instructs her to float rather than swim parallel—a counterintuitive move that ultimately saves her.
  • After praying and trusting the voice, she’s “carried to shore,” overwhelmed by a feeling that “Baha’u’llah carried me.” [24:03]
  • Later, seeing another swimmer almost drown underlines for Nava that her experience was not only mystical but confirmed by subsequent real-world events (the technique she used was later validated in a news story).

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4. What Convinced You That God Exists?

• [32:35–49:01]
  • A listener asks, “What convinced you that God exists?” Penn challenges the premise:
    • “It’s not the word that I would use because I don’t think anyone is ever convinced… our experiences shape us over time.” [33:49]
  • He describes growing up in an agnostic environment, feeling that devotion and “worship” are human tendencies, sometimes redirected toward artists, celebrities, or technology rather than something inherently noble or transcendent.
  • His encounter with spirituality intensified after early career successes didn’t bring fulfillment. Travel, reading, and particularly a trip to Colombia with the Kogi tribe (and a fortuitous friendship with a Baha’i peer) set him on a deeper journey toward prayer and belief in a higher purpose.

Memorable Quote:

• “I was actually assuming that my best guess was that the cultures of the past could give us something really ancient... But I couldn’t find that authentically… Eventually I was like, what do you mean? … He was always talking to me about the link between individual transformation and social transformation and that it being a mystical one, a spiritual one.” – Penn [42:03–43:56]

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5. Rationality, Psychedelics, and the Limits of Experience

• Penn details his exploration of psychedelics as a means to touch the transcendent. He discovers that while they can open doors, they’re not the ultimate answer.
  • “The more I pursued psychedelics seriously, the more I realized that everyone who does that becomes incoherent.” – Penn [44:17]
• The conversation veers into the distinctions between psychedelic and near-death experiences (NDEs), noting that NDEs more often leave people with calm and assurance, while psychedelics are unpredictable.

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6. Spiritual Metaphors and the Nature of God

• The hosts discuss metaphors for God and spiritual experience—energy, source, a “resource” that can’t be exhausted—contrasting that with the scarcity and anxiety of the physical world.
• Sophie reflects on how God’s constant presence is a source of comfort, not fear:
  • “You always have this capacity to tap into this, like, divine source, and it's like an illimitable resource that can never be exhausted… that's so empowering and so beautiful.” [50:07]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Penn on belief:
  “It’s not a rational conclusion that there is no purpose to life and that there is no God. It’s just a philosophical assumption.” [01:46]

• Sophie’s intimate ghost story punchline:
  “My grandfather can't see me topless!” [08:18]

• Nava, on hearing the guiding voice:
  “It’s not like a male voice. It’s not like the voice of God… but it was like unbidden thoughts. Like, thoughts that aren't coming from me.” [21:31]

• Penn, on art as early spiritual fulfillment:
  “Music was like my religion in a way.” [36:36]

• Sophie, reinterpreting the presence of God:
  “I also believe that God is with us 24/7. But to me it's such a source of confidence and safety and security. You're never alone.” [49:47]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | | -------------------------------------- | -------------- | | Opening, Listener Prompt | 00:06–02:43 | | Defining Mysticism | 00:57–01:46 | | Sophie’s Mystical Experience | 06:09–11:03 | | Penn’s Birthday Sleepover Story | 11:07–17:51 | | Nava’s Riptide Miracle | 17:54–27:18 | | What Convince(d) You of God? | 32:35–49:01 | | Spiritual Metaphors & Discussing God | 49:01–51:26 |

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Tone & Style

The hosts remain candid, irreverent, and playful even as they touch on profound questions:

• Humor and self-deprecation (“Bottoms only? That was my nickname in college. No, I didn’t go to college. It’s a joke.” – Penn [07:16])
• A gentle respect for differing worldviews and a desire to de-mystify mysticism for their largely secular (or spiritually curious) audience
• Storytelling as a central device—anchoring philosophy in lived, awkward, and sometimes hilarious experience

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Conclusion

This episode deftly mixes vulnerability, humor, and profound musing on the unseen dimensions of life. The hosts share mystical stories, contextualize them within their Baha’i faith, and open a dialogue about what spiritual experiences mean in a rational world. Their accounts serve as both an invitation and an affirmation: that the search for meaning, connection, and “walking prayer” is universal, sometimes ordinary, sometimes extraordinary, always deeply human.

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Transcript

[Nava]

Lemonade.

[Pen]

Welcome to Punk Crushed. Ooh, you better strap in for this one. Strap in with your invisible seat belts. We're going on an invisible journey.

[Sophie]

That's true.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

It's all stuff you can't see, can't touch.

[Pen]

Yeah, we're going to be talking about at your request. Maybe not you, the literal listener who's listening, but our metaphorical audience. The people who comment. The people who comment and ask things have asked us a lot about our faith, that all three of us are Baha'. Is. Or, you know, there's people just talking about spiritual concepts. So we're gonna do a whole episode on that. Hello.

[Sophie]

Oh, hello. Did we lose all of you?

[Pen]

Are you still.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

I thought pen actually cut out for a second.

[Pen]

Let's start with mystical experiences. This is something that people have asked us. Just think for a moment. What does that word mean to you? Mysticism. Mystical. I once heard, I think Christopher Hitchens, you know, a renowned atheist and now dead, so he knows the answer one way or another. He actually now knows the answer. And I think he would like that joke. He, he, he once said, the problem with mysticism is that it begins with is and ends with a schism. I think like a schism, maybe. I didn't quite get that part. I'm not smiling.

[Sophie]

How does it begin with is? It begins with Ms. No.

[Pen]

Mist.

[Sophie]

Oh, I thought you said.

[Pen]

That's what I said, Mist. I muttered it begins with mist. Like things aren't clear. Evidently, like what I'm saying.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Pen]

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna talk about what you might call spirituality, dare I say sometimes religion lost everybody. But we're gonna constantly be appealing to our so called rational mind because, you know, the truth is, it's not a rational conclusion that there is no purpose to life and that there is no God. It's just a philosophical assumption. With the current scientific community is actually losing its. Its unanimity on. Some of the leading physicists are, are really interested in why we cannot explain what is called the hard problem of consciousness. This is something that everybody should think about at some point in time. You always do. Why are we here? What are we doing? We're just gonna go to an ad break and be right back and tell you the answer. No, we've lost our advertisers as well, because.

[Sophie]

So we're just gonna jump right in.

[Pen]

Because we're gonna try to please everybody and offend everybody at the same time.

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[Nava]

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[Sophie]

Sophie, have you read A Mystical Experience?

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

I have, actually. And, you know, not so long ago, I made the decision to just really lean in to mystical experiences. Because like you said, what does that mean? Well, to just accept them, I think it's easy for me to try to explain them away, to try to doubt them and like, poke holes in them. Like, think of all the reasons why I could have had that thought or that experience that are not spiritual, that are not mystical. But I just made a decision to lean in. And so it happened. It's been happening to me frequently. One of the times it happened to me, I was working late one night and I was in the other room and it was like 2am finally decided to go to bed, join my husband. I got all ready for bed and I realized I forgot something in the other room. An important fact here for you to know, important for you and embarrassing for me is that I sleep topless. And so I was all ready for bed, which means.

[Pen]

So you got ready, which is to say you just stripped down. Gotta get ready for bed. I'm wearing too many. Ugh.

[Sophie]

What is this?

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Yeah, pajamas. Don't know her.

[Pen]

You gotta. No, just. Where's the bottom? Bottoms only? That was my nickname in college. No, I didn't go to college. It's a joke.

[Sophie]

I think it's important to know he's joking. He's lying. He's lying.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

So, yeah, I was all ready for bed and I forgot something. So instead of putting my clothes back on, I just run over to the other room. I'm finishing something at my computer. I close it and I turn around to, like, scurry back to my bedroom. And as I'm doing that, I catch this, like, flash of my grandfather who passed away when I was 12 and who I was very close with. I had a really, really good relationship with him. And I just had this, yeah, this image of him standing in the hallway between my studio and my bedroom. And I freak. I'm terrified. And I run into my bedroom, pull the covers over my Head.

[Pen]

You're no longer scurrying, you are running.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

My first thought was, this is freaky. My second thought was, oh, no, my.

[Sophie]

Grandfather can't see me topless.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

That was the thing. At this point, I couldn't see him anymore, but I knew he was there. So the only way I can describe it is like, I saw that flash of him and it was as if I was, like, allowed to see him.

[Sophie]

Just for a moment to know that it was real.

[Ad Voice/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Just so I would believe it with my physical eyes. And then I no longer needed that. I was like, okay, I'm in it.

[Pen]

And then you guys were, like, texting.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

I believe this.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Pen]

At first you were FaceTiming and you're like, you know, let's move to text. I don't have enough bandwidth. My wifi's not great. I'm not a medium all the time.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

And. Well, first of all, I had this thought of, I'm naked. My grandfather can't see me that way. And then he laughs and he thinks it's hysterical. He's like, I don't care. And that put me at ease immediately. And then I thought, okay, if he is here and we're already having this sort of back and forth, like, I'm not hearing anything, but I'm like, intuiting that he's having this reaction, Right. So if we're already here, why not. Why not ask him something? And at the time, I was. I think we had just recently moved to la and I was really trying to get to know my neighbors. That's something that I've talked about before, is, like, really important to me to, like, have a good relationship. Building people around me.

[Nava]

Yeah.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Community building. And I really wanted him to support me in that. I wanted his help. So I asked for that in my head and he just kind of, like, very warmly was like, of course I'm always here. I will always be helping you. And that was it. That was the end of the experience. But actually, since then, I have had, like, flashes of him frequently. Like, you know, I'd be walking down the street, actually, with my. With a couple of neighbors, and I just, like, feel him walking in step. Or sometimes I will, like, be sitting on the couch and I will have this, like, image in my. My head or what I would have just, like, dismissed before will be just like, an image of him sitting next to me on the couch. And then I just, like, lean into it. Like, maybe he is. Maybe he's. He's right here. And I just try to, like, imagine the Rest of the scenario. And sometimes I see more. You know, not see, but feel more. Sometimes I feel like a hand on my shoulder or. Or something like that. And it's been just this really sweet experience. And since I'm not using it as maybe a medium would to like, give somebody else advice. Not that I. I'm not saying that those are incorrect always or. But I think that you can get into tricky water if you're using it to give other people advice. I'm not doing that. And so I feel very comfortable just accepting it and just thinking of it as real.

[Sophie]

I love that. Sophie, Pen, have you had a mystical experience?

[Pen]

You know, I actually have a lot of, like, I don't know, kind of different stories. Some of them are kind of extreme, but the one that comes to mind is. Is a. Is a subtler one. And so maybe to help normalize mysticism. I'll tell that one.

[Sophie]

Okay.

[Pen]

It was my. My stepson. It was his ninth birthday, and he happened to have just. I don't know why, nine friends coming over. And so they're all eight or nine years old. For. For. For a while I was. So I was responsible for getting them all to sleep, I think. And. And so they're between like two rooms. And then like, some are on the couch in the living room and it's getting really late. And then like. But like, I got. They all were, you know, pretty patient getting to. Getting to. To rest. And. Except for one. There was this one kid in particular who. Who was really idiosyncratic and like, clearly had a brilliant. Some behavioral things, like, you know, just things that were difficult. And he was like, fancied himself a comedian this night of all nights. I'd never seen it in him before, but he really, really, you know, was like getting so basically just in this one room where he was. There was three kids. He would not let them sleep because he kept telling this joke, same joke. It was. He was. It was like a shtick. I think he was like in his underwear. And he was like. He was like. He reminded me. Yeah, Actually he was topless. It was just. And he was like, I see dead people. My grandfather won't leave me Al. And basically, like, it was funny. But then. But then I go to the other kids and I'm like, hey guys, are you actually tired? You want to go to sleep? And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So. So I say to this kid, what do you normally do to go to sleep? And. And he was like, well, my. Sometimes my mom will give me A. What is that stuff called? I'm forgetting what it's called. It's ambient. No, no.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Melatonin.

[Pen]

No. What's melatonin? Yeah, y. Little lick of melatonin. And so he got fixated on this. He really wanted to take this melatonin. And I look it up, and I'm thinking on one hand it's maybe okay, but then I'm seeing a lot of, like, you know, disclaimers, FDA do not give to children under the age of 12. Da, da, da, da, da. So I'm like, okay, not gonna give this kid melatonin. But he's fixated. And at this point, all the other kids are falling asleep, and he won't. He just won't. And it's. By the way, I'm pretty sure it's like, it's like midnight at this point. So I go, I finally decide. We're having lots of really funny back and forth conversation. And I'm just thinking the whole time, I'm like, this is like, I'm not upset, but like, where does this go? Like this. He's not letting it go. He's like, fixated on having melatonin. So I go to CVS to see what I can get. If there's anything that is, like, totally fine, and there's not a single one that has anything without that is like, do not give to this kid, basically. And so here's what I do. I buy the smallest dose, I take it back, and just give him the whole bottle.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

You have to get a lot.

[Pen]

Yeah. So I make him some chamomile tea. And then, you know, and I really don't like to lie. Nava has spoken about this before. Maybe Sophie has lied about it. I'm not sure. But we. But we. You just. A principle of our faith is Baha'. Is. It's like, you know, lying is really a terrible thing to do. So, you know, I really have, since I became a Baha', I, like, really, really try not to, even in the smallest of ways.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

And sometimes to his detriment. You don't lie.

[Pen]

Yeah, it's true. It's like, are you excited? No, no, no, I'm not. And so this kid is watching me, and I just kind of shift my body and I make it look like I'm putting melatonin in the chamomile tea after I've made him tea and we're talking all along. You know, it's a SW thing.

[Sophie]

Placebo effect.

[Pen]

And then. Yeah. And then so I put it in. But I don't and just give him the tea. And then, and then, and then he sips some and he's just, you know, having this really sweet little nine year old moment. And I'm like, do you feel a little bit better now? He's like, yeah, I think so. He's like, are you sleepy yet? And he's like, no. And I was like, okay, well how about if I sit in the room and meditate with, with you in the dark? Will you, will, will that, would that be okay? Will you just sort of lay there until you can fall asleep? And he's like, yeah. And so we go in, he gets in his sleeping bag, the other kids are like woken up a bit and I'm like, it's okay, we're just going to sit here and I'm going to meditate. It's okay. I'm just, I'm going to leave when he falls asleep and, and I do that. And so for maybe about 20 minutes I just sit in the dark with these three kids while they fall back asleep and they do. And I haven't done a great storytelling job of telling you how absolutely chaotic it was for like an hour and a half. But, but, but, but rest assured it was because there were nine, nine year olds. And then, so as, and at this point everybody's asleep, Domino's asleep, our dog was asleep. Like everybody was asleep. And it's past midnight and I got him down like all the nine year olds. And so I, I'm, I'm closing the door and going to, to our bedroom to go to sleep. And I look back at the door and Sophie's grandfather is standing there. No, no, I, I, I, no. And this is where, like this is where there's nothing I can really say which captures it, however, at the door and in my periphery I can see all, I can see both the rooms that the kids are sleeping in, in the rooms and then the, and then the two kids or three kids on the couch. So in my vision is kind of like the nine, nine year olds on, on my stepson's ninth birthday. And I just have this, and the number wasn't important, but I'm just saying it's there. I, I just had this sense like, wow, it's possible like this, like, like every, like it seemed as though the atoms were charged. My heart lifted. Humanity's potential seemed to stretch out eons before me. You know, everything and kind of nothing happened all at once. Like silence was so loud and powerful. I felt like my nervous system settled. You know, the, the, the Effects of meditation and prayer that people talk about that science has actually, you know, proven beyond any doubt now. I just felt it in that moment, you know, and when people. Your life. A walking prayer. I felt like that was a moment, you know, it was just. It was really, really powerful.

[Sophie]

It's really sweet. I have a story, and it just.

[Nava]

Requires a little bit of a setup.

[Sophie]

Asthmatic. So this. Bear. Bear this in mind. I have asthma. So I was in Puerto Rico for a year during the pandemic. My dad has a property that's oceanfront. And so we were going every day. We were going on a daily walk, 10,000 steps. And then sometimes we would go swimming. And there was, like, one day of the week that I sort of dipped in the water, and this girl. The ocean was pretty empty, and this girl came up to me, and she was sort of, like, waving at me. And I looked behind me because I didn't know this girl. There was no one there. So I came out to talk to her, and she was like, do you speak Spanish? And I said, yes. And she said, you should get out of the water. There are, like, really strong riptides. It's not safe. A lot of people have been drowning on this beach. And so I got out of the water. I was super thankful to her then. So a normal person or a thoughtful person would, like, check the weather app to be like, is it safe to. Because in Puerto Rico, it'll tell you if it's safe to get in the water or not.

[Nava]

I just.

[Sophie]

And so the following week, my dad and I went on a walk, and I hit my 10,000 steps before he did. So he kept going. And I was like, I'm just gonna swim. I didn't tell him. I was just, like, waiting for him. And then I decided to take a dip. And I did notice that there was no one in the water, but I thought it was, like, the hour. And I had heard that sort of in that story with that girl. She had shared that a girl had gone out, started to drown. A guy went in to get her, and he died, but she made it to shore. And that this is, like, a common phenomenon that the person that goes in for you dies and sometimes make it out. Yeah, that does. Like, Yeah. I don't know. Maybe there's no one to get you out. Like, you then get trapped in the. In the thing. So anyway, I get in the water. I am not, like, swimming very far out at all, but for a moment, I'm like, let me just float. It's, like, so pretty it's so calm. Close my eyes, start to float. And to me, I don't know how long it was. It felt like 30 seconds. But I just hear a voice very calmly, like, hey, Nava, you should open your eyes. So I open my eyes, and I am very far from the shore. Like, I cannot believe how far I am from the shore. A current had just pulled me, and I didn't sense it, and I'm like, oh, crap. Like, I'm kind of tired, too. I just went on this long walk, but I'm a pretty good swimmer, so I'll be fine. So I try to start to swim to shore, and I can't. Like, basically, I'm in this area where the waves. In Spanish they say, donda la te chupa, which is like, where the wave sucks you. But it's basically where the waves kind of form. And so I just keep getting sucked in by a wave. And it happens three times, and I start to, like, really lose energy. And I'm, like, not breathing well, and I'm like, oh, my God, I think I'm gonna drown. Like, it just hits me like, oh, I'm gonna drown. And I said. I say a little prayer in Arabic that my mom taught me. It's a protection prayer. And as soon as I finish saying the prayer, I have, like, very clear guidance. So the first thing that is that I feel communicated to me is, don't panic. God is not gonna let you drown. Just do exactly as you're told. So I'm like, okay. And then I think, well, I should swim parallel to shore, because I know that's how you get out of a riptide. And this voice in my head is like, do not swim parallel to shore. It will not help you, and you will die. Like, you will lose energy.

[Pen]

And how tired are you at this point?

[Sophie]

I'm pretty tired. And it actually happens pretty quickly, like, when people who die in this situation, like, it's pretty quick because I think part of it is the panicking, but you lose breath and all this stuff.

[Pen]

No, totally. I mean, I think it really. It's like, after just even 30 seconds of, like, hard swimming, it's a lot.

[Nava]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

So I'm, like, pretty tired. And so this voice in my head is like, do not swim parallel to shore. It literally says, you will not. It will not help, and you will die. Like, that is what I hear. And in that moment, I'm like, is this real or not? Like, I literally. This is a life and death decision.

[Pen]

So. So can I actually ask, like, because this is. I'm fascinated for other people as well. Like, when you say you hear a voice, like, can you say a little bit more about that?

[Sophie]

I don't know how to explain it. It's like, it doesn't happen often, but sometimes I've had a few moments in my life. This was the most clear. I just know that someone is communicating with me, something, someone, and it's not me. So that was like. It's not like a male voice. It's not like the voice of God. I don't know who it is, but it could be an ancestor. It could be the divine. I don't know. But it was like unbidden thoughts. Like, thoughts that aren't coming from me. I know that I'm not generating them. And so anyway, so this thought is like, don't do the parallel thing. But I do. In that moment, I'm like, this is a life and death moment. Like, if this is my imagination, I'm going to die by not swimming parallel. And if this is not my imagination, I'm going to die if I swim par in parallel, because that's what the voice is telling me. So I'm like, okay, like, I'm just gonna have faith that, like, this is God. And then the next thing is just float. Like, go very still, float, let the wave spit you out, and then swim to shore as fast as you can once it has spit you out. So I'm like, okay, this is like literally the opposite of what my body. My body is not telling me to float. My body is telling me to swim. Like, fight. I'm like, okay. So I float, and then the wave spits me out. And then as soon as I start to swim, it sucks me back up again. And so I do it again, and it happens again. And I know that I have one more shot. Like, I just know that somehow I'm like, if I don't make it out this third time, I am dead. Like, I don't have the energy to keep going. And also, I'm not so scared of death. So, like, that's okay. I'm sort of like, it's okay if I die. But I do have this thought. Like, poor Tommy. Like, my dad. My dad is not gonna know. Like, what if he doesn't find my body? You know, like, all of that is happening. Oh, the other thing I forgot to mention is that there was one man on the shore and I could have done. There's like, a drowning symbol that you can do, and it's well known in Puerto Rico because It's like beach culture. And I thought about doing it, but I remembered that that guy that had gone in died for the woman. And I was like, you know what? Like, I'm either gonna live or die, but I'm not gonna bring someone else into it. Cause it's too much guilt if that happened. So I decided.

[Pen]

Nobility.

[Sophie]

I decided not to do the drowning symbol. So it's sort of like it's me and God. Like, it's just like, that's how I'm gonna get out or I'm gonna die.

[Pen]

And can you so. And I mean, I don't wanna interrupt too much, but I also love. Just for people who are listening and kind of. Cause this story to me is very fascinating. I really like it. Can you clarify a little bit? Like, we don't want to get to theology here, but when you say you're hearing God.

[Sophie]

Well, I don't know if I'm hearing God. No, no, no. I'm hearing a voice. But when I'm saying me and God, like, I know that what's going to get me out is outside of me. Like, there's not a human who's going to come and save me right now in this moment. Like, it's me and this voice, basically. But remember that the first thing that I heard was, don't panic. God is not going to let you drown. Which is why in my mind, I'm like, it's me and God.

[Pen]

Right? Right.

[Sophie]

So anyway, so I'm. I. So I have a third shot. I know it's my last shot. I float. It spits me out, and I swim. And I start swimming harder than I've ever swam. And it's quite far. And I make it. I made it to shore. And when I made it to shore, I was, like, hyperventilated. I mean, I've never been in, like, never had so much physical exertion in my life. And I have this feeling, and I don't know how to explain it, but I have. I. I will say this just directly. The Baha' I faith, the prophet is named Bahaullah. I have this strong feeling that Bahaullah carried me to shore. And I'm like, I don't know how to explain this, but, like, I know that I didn't have the energy to make it to shore and that someone carried me. And I feel it really strong. And I'm, like, weeping on the sand. I'm like. Like sobbing. Like, I've just had this experience. And, like, I really feel like Bahaullah carried me to Shore. So basically, a month later.

[Ad Voice/Announcer]

We can.

[Sophie]

Edit this down if it's too long, but a month later, my dad and I are walking our dog, Oliver. He's like a brand new puppy. We're walking him on the beach. I'm gonna skip some details, but it's. It's kind of mystical how we end up in the spot of the beach that we end up. Basically, we're, like, walking the dog, and we see a man in the ocean, in the middle of the ocean, and he's drinking the drowning symbol. And I'm like, oh, my God. I grabbed my dad's arm, and I'm like, oh, my God, that man is drowning. But the man is very tall, athletic, and he's standing, but he keeps getting knocked down by the wave, and nobody is paying attention, even though he's clearly doing the symbol with his two arms. And so I, like, start calling out. I'm like, that man is drowning. In Spanish. And there happened to be two policemen patrolling the beach because it's the pandemic. And they. You had to wear masks even on the beach. So they're enforcing that. And I'm like. And so the police stop. But, like, basically nobody thinks that he's actually drowning. And I'm. I look at my dad. I'm like, daddy, I know that he's drowning. That's the exact spot I was in. And the waves are knocking him out. And I think, like, maybe I should go in the water. But I'm like, I think I'll probably die, which I'm totally okay with. But it will be so traumatic for my dad to watch me die. And my dad is too old to die. So I'm like, what do we do? And I just say that prayer, that prayer in Arabic, the one that I had said when I was in the water. And my dad says it, too. We, like, hold hands, and we both say it. And as soon as we say it, the man starts floating. He just gets on his back and floats. And then the waves spits him out. And he starts to swim, but he doesn't make it. He drowns. And then, because there had been a little group form because I had been screaming, this man is drowning. These two men jump into the water. The police go and get sort of like a floaty thing. And they go and they get him and they bring him to shore. Like, they carry him to shore, and then they do CPR on him. And he survived. But I also was like, oh, like, God carried me to shore. Like, that man is tall, athletic. You don't make it. You've lost all of your energy. So I also felt like even to see someone else do it, it was like the final piece of confirmation that I needed that that experience was real. And then the final, final piece of confirmation is that my friend Carla came over the day before I was leaving for California. We were at the beach. This didn't scare me from swimming, by the way. And I was like, carla, you want to get in the water? And she was like, actually, you know, a lot of people have been drowning in this beach. Last week, three people died outside the Marriott. Like the, you know, the current pulled them. And she said, the. Which is the big newspaper in Puerto Rico. They published an article about what to do when. When you're drowning. And they said there's two things. One is a riptide and you swim parallel to shore. But the other is where Las Olas de Chupan. And if you swim parallel to shore, it won't work. You have to float and let the waves spit you out and then swim. And I was like, I just grabbed her arm.

[Pen]

That's what you did?

[Sophie]

That's what I did, but I didn't know that's what the voice told me to do. And I grabbed her arm and I was like, carla, I almost died. Like, I told her the story and she was like, that was good. And she just, you know, started crying.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Don't go anywhere.

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[Nava]

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[Pen]

Now.

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[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

What convinced you that God exists?

[Pen]

That story. That story. Just, you know, I do want to say something about monotheism, that it's an intellectual word, it's an academic word and, you know, never used it earlier. And it's accurate to describe the sense that, you know, the central pivot of the Baha' I faith is this oneness of God, which is also the oneness of reality, the oneness of humanity. So to say that it's monotheistic, I think sometimes doesn't capture, you know, just this idea that the unknowable essence that we may call God transcends plurality and singleness, transcends existence and non existence. There's, you know, there's essentially nothing we can say about God which gets us closer to God, as evident by what I'm saying right now, which is why.

[Sophie]

I feel further away from God.

[Pen]

I know, me too. Me too. I do. But that's why we need these divine educators.

[Sophie]

So anyway, Pen, I am curious because as someone who wasn't born, I mean, you've said many times on the show that your family was like pretty atheist. You were pretty atheist growing up. What did convince you that there was God? That spirituality is a path worth pursuing?

[Pen]

Yeah, I mean, well, nada. It's convincing is the word that our listener used to. And I'll chide them for it because it's not the right word. It's just not the word that I would use because I don't think anyone is ever convinced. Right. I don't think that that's how anyone sees the world. I don't know that there are times where we make decisions, but those are relatively rare. I think it's like we see things the way we see things and our experiences shape us over time. And my home wasn't atheist. It was very typically agnostic for like a white American home, like a middle class white American home. It was just. There just wasn't exploration of it or reference or even questioning of it. It seemed to me, you know, it's like we maybe went to church on Christmas. It all seemed a bit preposterous, this notion. Religion seemed like clearly about power. You know, it. I don't know if I could have named who quoted it, but I definitely knew the quote. Religion is the opiate of the masses. I'm hoping that's Karl Marx. I'm pretty sure.

[Sophie]

I think it's Marx.

[Pen]

Yeah.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Yeah, it is. I can confirm for you.

[Pen]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

And Nietzsche said, religion, God is dead.

[Pen]

Yeah. But Sophie's grandfather said, I don't care. Oh, but yeah. So, you know, I think that actually I had a lot of sadness growing up because the suggestion, the. The accepted assumption and suggestion that came to me through really, like media, like, I think that became my. That became my, my religion. I think that's. I think something supplants religion. We have, it seems to me that the human being has a tendency to. To be devoted to something, you know, to sort of worship something. We live in an era where we sort of worship the self and we worship technology and we worship other people. We don't worship anything like, higher than us, but we do tend to worship things and become fixated and not having anything noble or divine or heavenly or beautiful to really devote myself to. I think it just, you know, art was definitely the best that could be offered. Music was the thing. Music was like my religion in a way. So actually, you know what's interesting, I. I have recently understood that when I loved an artist and then they like, would demonstrate a view or something that was like, that was not consonant with my own. I would feel offended because up until that point they had seemed almost like a. Like a, like a priest or an acolyte or something that. Something that would represent to me like, you're on the right path and I can confirm that for you, you know, But I don't know. I mean, by the time I was in my mid-20s and on gossip Girl and had gotten the confirmation, the stup. Boring confirmation that no one believes until they get it, that fame and wealth does not make you happy, and if anything, it. It depresses you. Don't take it from me. Pursue it. I encourage you to pursue it.

[Sophie]

Get that bag.

[Pen]

Get that bag. Get those followers. It will do for you what you will discover. So, you know, I really. I was actually assuming that my best. My best guess was that the cultures of the past could give us something really ancient indigenous cultures was what I wanted knowledge from, but I couldn't find that authentically. I was staying with a tribe called the Kogi tribe in Colombia back in 2011, early 2011.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

How did you find your way there? Like, when you say you're staying with this tribe?

[Pen]

Yeah.

[Ad Voice/Announcer]

Can you explain that more?

[Pen]

Well, okay, here's a little bit of mystical experience. It started with this book that I. That, like, nearly fell off the shelf. It didn't actually fall off the shelf. It didn't. Sophie's grandfather wasn't there to just go.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Matthew McConaughey, Interstellar Ye.

[Pen]

But I was, like, 18 or 19 in the Barnes and Noble in Union Square, which is still there. It's one of the few things that's still there. And I don't know what I was there for, but I saw the COVID of this book that had a mushroom on it, and this crazy. Like, it was a really effective cover because it used perspective to, like, zoom in on that little icon of a photograph of probably a psilocybin mushroom. And I was just like, blah. What is that?

[Nava]

That?

[Pen]

And. And I. And I bought it, read the first couple pages, wasn't interested, and then. And then wouldn't pick it up again for another few years. It's called Breaking Open the Head by Daniel Pinchbeck. I became he. He was one of many who, you know, believe there's. There's a. There's. There's something about consciousness that psychedelics are. Are communicating to us. I then kind of pursued the. The. The whole notion of, you know, Gaia, like the Earth being this sacred organism, which I also still believe. I mean, it's very much like a sacred organism, as all organisms are sacred, and it is this sort of living, breathing being. But I pray to something more transcendent than that now than just our planet. But that's what I was doing then, and I was exploring, you know, every indigenous culture that I could. That I. That I could at least find, which is to say, I don't know Google about or, like, you know, Wikipedia. And how accurate is that? I was just. Just doing what I could, you know, found. Oh, and then, you know what? And so then, actually, I met this author, this Daniel Pinchbeck, who I had since come to really revere in a way. He was, like, very influential. There are a few figures I could think of as influential. He's one of them, encouraging me to sort of believe in more than just the sort of atoms and material of the physical dimension of life. And, I mean, this is many years later at this point, but, like, I basically ran into him at a bar, and my friend fell into his lap, actually, because it was so crowded in this really obnoxious bar. Really. I won't shout out the name because it's probably still there and the people who run it, but it was this obnoxious hipster bar that, like, in all my years, somehow I could not. Never had an easy time getting into. And it's like, count. And they were really, really, really, really, really exclusive. They would turn so many people away. And I would so often get in with friends just so casually. But, like, at my height on Gossip Girl, it still was like, I'm like, this fumbling idiot, and I never was gonna, like, force my way in at all. But I just remember being like, that place is so pretentious. It's full of the hipsters of the hipster.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

I can't even get in.

[Pen]

You know? And. No, it was like, I can get in all the time with. If I'm with the right person.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Pen]

And then I can see what would happen. And it just was like. I don't think I was ever actually turned away, but there was always some kind of, like, they just wanted to make you feel.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Yeah.

[Pen]

And. And. And I think. And I only ever went with friends who wanted to go. Or like, somebody's like, hey, where can we go? And it's like going to that place. So I. So I go there with my friend Dan, shout out to Dan Stern. And then. And then I end up running into this other Dan, Daniel Pinchbeck. And I played Dan on Gospel Girl. So that's something that we were all thinking it.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Thank you.

[Pen]

It's the trinity of Daniel.

[Sophie]

This story is going to lead to you believing in God, right?

[Pen]

In Gossip Girl. It leads to me believing in Gossip Girl.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Gossip Girl and God.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Pen]

The trinity of Daniels.

[Sophie]

That should be your new podcast.

[Pen]

And a portal opened, and Adam Brody fell out. No. So anyway. But this guy who had been in his books exploring a kind of psychedelic mysticism that originates from ancient cultures, indigenous cultures, and was trying to explore them similarly through contact with these cultures and engaging in their ceremonies. I run into him. He basically, I tell him, hey, hey, I don't want to like blow up your spot, but your book kind of changed my life, but I don't want to bother you. And then just kind of turned away. And then like five or ten minutes later he comes back and he's like, hey, what do you mean? And so we start talking for a while and then he invites me on this trip that he's going to, to stay with this Kogi tribe. And so, so. And I was really excited about that. Really, really excited about that. And then the first night there, I met a Baha'. I didn't know he was a Baha'. I. He was like the only other 24 year old white guy from New York City there. So I wasn't interested in speaking to him, but we just would run during like Occupy Wall street protests and other kind of like things like that. And he was always talking to me about the link between individual transformation and social transformation and that it being a mystical one, a spiritual one. And eventually I was like, what do you mean? And then eventually, very indirectly, he. I mean, if he told me that the Baha' I faith was a religion, I don't know, I wouldn't have called it the Baha' I faith. I don't know what I would have. I don't know what my impression was. I don't quite recall all, but he was very indirect and really took his time, which was the right way for me probably, but.

[Sophie]

But I still don't get the part where you believed in God and decided to have a spiritual path. This is your encounter with it.

[Nava]

But what.

[Pen]

Yeah, these are encounters. I mean, the truth is at that point I already was very much praying and belie, like along the way I always believed there was something, but it was so unclear what it was.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Yeah, it went to me, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, so, yeah, to.

[Pen]

Yeah, like I really did believe for a while that the answer was in psychedelics naturally existing, like in, in Theogens, like something that I could maybe. That's right. Is that right? I really believe that if it, that if it was naturally occurring, that, that somehow that's like a, a message, a gift from the planet, you know, the largest sort of living organism I could cite and defer to. You know, and then I think it just really grew. I think that, I think, I think as much as I pursued it, I read a lot of Terrence McKenna. I don't know if you guys know who that is. His stuff becomes incoherent. You know, when I. The more I pursued psychedelics seriously, the more I realized that everyone who does that becomes incoherent. And I mean, really, seriously. Shout out to all those who are incoherent, you know, because I know that it's. I know that it's a really attractive and interesting idea these days. And I seriously pursued it. Like, you know, ayahuasca, that's the main one. Mushrooms. I did some other things that I won't reference here, which don't need to be, you know, shouted out, but I was really trying. I found myself in some strange situations and found myself in some really, really, really strange states of mind. Mind and really encouraging states of mind, you know, like integration and disintegration all at once. I neared what I thought might be a psychotic break. I also experienced a lot of depression not as a result of these things, but like through this pursuit. Not, you know, like, where to turn, who's gonna. Who's gonna have. Surely there must be an answer, right? Like, surely. Surely there must be some way to answer this burning question of ultimately like, what are we doing here? And what is my role in what we're doing here?

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

You know what's interesting? I was listening to a podcast with David and the person being interviewed was a physician who's studying near death experiences. It was Theo Vaughan's podcast and he was asking him if there's a. If he's found some kind of link. Link between psychedelic experiences.

[Ad Voice/Announcer]

Which.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Yeah, psychedelic experiences and near death experiences. Because they were sounding similar to Theo. And he was saying, actually no one, like, very distinct difference is that in all the near death experiences that he's studied or like gathered, there's nev. It's always a sense of calm and that. That's not often the case with psychedelics. That there's always like. There's like some element of. Yeah. Or fear. And that's never the case in a near death experience. Which I thought was interesting.

[Pen]

I mean, it really depends. Like, I think you can, you know, we. Can we start talking about all the qualities of good and bad trip if you want. But.

[Sophie]

I think our listeners might prefer that.

[Pen]

I mean, listen, it's. I mean, listen, it's set and setting. It is set and setting. You got to be with the right people. You got to. You got to take the right step.

[Sophie]

We mentioned Interstellar once and Matthew Gane joined us.

[Pen]

Did we, did we mention interstellar? I didn't Even we didn't need to mention interstellar.

[Sophie]

She did.

[Pen]

Oh, right. The zoom cut out for that. I. No, no, seriously. I actually was not sure what you said, and I was just like.

[Sophie]

I was good that you laughed. You said, you do lie.

[Pen]

I'm an actor.

[Sophie]

You do lie.

[Pen]

No, I was. I was. I was engaging in a social norm and making everybody feel comfortable. Comfortable and trying to keep the podcast going by telling a long, boring story that doesn't even have a point or an ending. Is this really our podcast today? Is this really what we're doing?

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

One thing I will say, and then I think, Nava, you. You were gonna say something, but there's a prayer that is really beautiful in the Baha' I writings where it goes through different natural, like, features, like ocean, mountain, a few others, and with each one, it says, when I look at the mountains, I'm reminded of thy might. When I look at the ocean, I'm reminded of thy vastness. It's like, basically correlating elements of nature to, like, a belief in God and that those things are attributed to God.

[Pen]

Yeah, yeah. It's like basically everything and everything in the natural world is a reflection of a divine attribution.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

And just I think that that is when we're talking about what convinces. That's not something that would convince me of the existence of God, but it is something that resonates for me.

[Pen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and also, I mean, to me, it's sort of like, in a lot of these things, do we worship the lamp or do we worship the source of the light?

[Sophie]

We. Pen and I were on a call earlier where we were exploring. I won't. I promise. I'm not going to spoil this Pen. But we were exploring sort of like, how people. What were people's beliefs in the medieval times. And one of the things that came up was, like, everyone believed in God, and the way that this person presented it was sort of like everyone believed that God was watching them 24 7. And, like, if they slipped up, it was just such a terrible thing. And I was thinking about. I mean, probably some of that comes from, like, the Old Testament. I don't know if that's true. I'm not trying to say anything, but. But I think the Old Testament maybe has a. Has a portrait of God that is among the more wrathful from the different texts. So I think there's a reason for that. But I was thinking about, like, oh, that's interesting, this notion that God is watching you 247 and waiting for you to slip up or gonna punish you.

[Nava]

If you slip up.

[Sophie]

And I also believe that God is with us 24 7. But to me, it's such a source of confidence and safety and security. You're never alone. And also because God is. Is an unknowable essence. Like, we don't know what God is, but we know God isn't a person. In a way, maybe we can think of God is not a person.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

It sounded like you might have said is in a person.

[Sophie]

God is in. And we're trying to find. Go find them.

[Pen]

He's like, Waldo, where is that man?

[Sophie]

God is not a person. And maybe the way that I think of it, which is wrong, because none of us can really accurately understand it, but is like a sort like a source, like an energy, but more personal than that. But anyway, that you're always. You always have this capacity to tap into this, like, divine source, and it's like. Like an illimitable resource that can never be exhausted. Whereas in this world, we live with limited resources, and we see what's happening when we start exhausting them, and not everybody can have them. And this is like. This is so different. Like, every one of us can, like, tap into it at any moment. And if we, like, cleanse our hearts and we do certain things, like, we can access greater and greater amounts of that resource force. And I just don't think that's scary at all. I think that's so empowering and so beautiful. But it's such a different take on, like, the idea of God always being there, always being present. Sort of. Is your vision of God, like, scary, wrathful, someone that wants you to mess up and then punish you? Or is it something else? Like a force that's with you, that helps you, that animates you, that encourages you when you mess up, gives you the strength to keep going.

[Unknown Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

And we'll be right back.

[Ad Voice/Announcer]

I don't have my own dog at the moment, but David and I have said for years that when we get a backyard, we'll consider getting a dog again. And, well, we have a backyard now. So in preparation for that day when Anais inevitably comes home begging for a furry friend, I've been doing my research, and Nom Nom stood out to me because it's real, fresh food with recipes designed by the very people who know best vets. You can't get better than that. Nom Nom makes food that actually engages your pup's senses with a mix of tantalizing smells, textures, and vibrant ingredients. Nom Nom offers six unique recipes that keep things endlessly interesting, all while delivering real health and wellness benefits. And their recipes are crafted by vet nutritionists, so I feel good knowing that it's designed with every dog's health and happiness in mind. Nom Nom's recipes are bursting with premium proteins, vibrant veggies, and tempting textures designed to add excitement to Dog's day. You can choose from Pork Potluck, Chicken Cuisine, Turkey Fare, Beef Mash, Lamb Pilaf, or Turkey and Chicken Cookout. It's meat that looks like meat and veggies that look like veggies because, shocker, they are. Honestly, my mouth is watering just reading these recipe names. I mean, who doesn't want lamb Pilaf, right? Serve Nom Nom as a complete and balanced meal or as a tasty and healthy addition to your dog's current diet. Keep mealtime exciting with Nom Nom. Available at your local Petsmart store or at chewy.com [e-mail] podcrushed spelled try n o m.com podcrushed well, hi everybody, it's.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the Mill Food Recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can, but it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true, I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone phone. But you have to kind of live with mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

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[Nava]

Month.

[Pen]

I'll, I'll. We, we maybe can end on, on a, on a, on a lighter note.

[Sophie]

That was light.

[Pen]

No, it was light. It was great.

[Sophie]

It was so on a heavy note. Pen, pen. Make it heavy again.

[Pen]

So let's go out on a, on a, on a, on a dumb note.

[Ad Voice/Announcer]

Okay.

[Pen]

Love that, love that. For you, Carl Marx. Yeah, something. Let's, let's go with some Mark Marxist drivel. No, you just were talking about illimitable resources. But then we see how in this life, how we're sort of beset and burdened by very limited resources and what happens when we exhaust them. I recently stumbled into a conversation about climate change with my three and a half year old because we're talking about dinosaurs. And then I was like, well, you know, actually those dinosaurs are actually what makes gas. You know, I was like explaining things.

[Sophie]

To say to a three year old.

[Pen]

And then, and then, and then, and then I was like. And you know, and you know how we were one day talking about like he was walking around the back of the car and I was like, yo, you don't want to like walk through the exhaust. And it's very, very cold here, so you can see the exhaust very well. And I was like, oh, just stay away from that. And then like I made the joke that there were dinosaurs in that. So, so then, so like basically over the course of a couple different, like little shifts, short, sweet little toddler conversations, we got to the place where it was like, yeah, so actually there's like a lot of dinosaurs in the sky. I realized to my adult brain I'm like, we have dredged the dinosaurs up and put them in the sky. And that is climate change in a nutshell. Thank you for coming to podcrushed. We wish you all a Merry Christmas. Good afternoon, good evening and good night. Good night.

[Sophie]

Every caregiving journey is unique. But the isolation, guilt and exhaustion we all feel, that's universal.

[Ad Voice/Announcer]

It's reality. It's life. You know, I wish it could all be happy and joyous, but sometimes it's full of rage. And that is what it is.

[Sophie]

That's why this show exists, to be a safe place for caregivers to land. Listen to Squeezed. Wherever you you get your podcasts.