Kumail Nanjiani

Summary

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Podcrushed – Kumail Nanjiani

Release Date: December 17, 2025
Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guest: Kumail Nanjiani

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Episode Overview

This episode of Podcrushed dives into the adolescence, anxieties, and self-discovery of comedian, writer, and actor Kumail Nanjiani. The discussion explores themes of puberty, cultural shame, masculinity, creativity, and the pursuit of authenticity through Kumail’s middle school years in Pakistan, his struggles with identity, and later, his creative journey. The conversation is candid, humorous, deeply personal, and often poignant as Kumail shares how formative experiences shaped his self-image, art, and career—in particular, what inspired his return to standup with the special Night Thoughts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Night Thoughts & Anxieties: Playful Opener

[02:00–07:39]

• The hosts discuss what keeps them up at night. Sophie admits to peppering her partner, David, with wild "what-if" questions, while Nava wishes her dog could speak, leading her down a spiral of sad thoughts.
• Penn’s “night thoughts” revolve around keeping his children asleep, comparing Sophie’s relentless questioning to the irrationality of a five-year-old.
• Transition: Kumail is introduced as the “Content King,” known for The Big Sick, Silicon Valley, Welcome to Chippendales, Marvel work, and his new Hulu special.

Notable Quote:

“Way less sane than I thought you were. That is legitimately bonkers.” – Penn Badgley to Sophie ([03:30])

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2. Kumail’s Adolescence – Puberty, Shame, and Family

[13:24–22:22]

• Kumail recalls an older cousin earnestly explaining sex to him around age 11 or 12—and how this revelation collided with his conservative Muslim upbringing, where even feeling attraction was considered sinful.
• He details the cycle of discovery, guilt, and shame around sexuality driven by religious messaging and the secrecy it imposed.
• Despite a fun and close family (massive dinners, movie nights), his sense of self-worth was undermined by internalized shame and high academic expectations.
• He copes with these changes privately, using a clandestine VHS tape system to hide evidence of his sexuality.

Notable Quotes:

“I was taught that even being attracted to a woman was a sin...so I started feeling like I was a bad person.” – Kumail Nanjiani ([18:10])

“There were two versions of me: the version into this stuff, and the version that hated that version.” – Kumail Nanjiani ([25:24])

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3. Love, Heartbreak, and Childhood Dreams Shattered

[26:02–29:49]

• Kumail shares his first big crush—always second to her grades and trying to impress her.
• A humiliating experience in art class (botched drawing, shared laughter) kills his dream of being an artist and his hope of winning the girl.
• The group reflects on how fragile kids’ dreams are and how certain moments can feel defining.

Notable Moment:

“Two dreams just died. I’ll never be an artist, and I’ll never be her husband.” – Kumail Nanjiani ([28:40])

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4. Creative Aspirations – Becoming a Writer

[29:49–31:43]

• Penn asks about the origins of Kumail’s writing—Kumail admits he saw writing and filmmaking as impossible, 'godlike' endeavors growing up.
• He secretly tries to write fantasy novels but doesn’t see himself as a writer until adulthood.

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5. Movie & Comedy Obsessions

[31:43–35:22]

• Kumail describes his love of horror and fantasy films (e.g. Beastmaster, Total Recall, Ghostbusters, Bollywood hits).
• He recounts how a family member accidentally imported 200 VHS tapes via diaper smuggling, fueling his appetite for movies—including forbidden horror films that made him afraid of the dark into his teens.

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6. Masculinity, Emotion, and the Father-Son Relationship

[41:29–49:16]

• Kumail unpacks the pressure to be “manly,” shaped by culture, societal gender roles, and family expectations.
• His father modeled a different masculinity: open, sensitive, unafraid to cry—something young Kumail rejected then, but for which he’s now grateful.
• The conversation turns toward the pain caused by not accepting one’s sensitivity, and the toxic masculinity Kumail observes in society, linking it to larger issues faced by men in power.

Notable Quotes:

“He [my dad] was a model for how it was possible to be a man who was in touch with his emotions.” – Kumail Nanjiani ([42:11])

“Right now, ...we are watching very sensitive men who cannot admit they’re sensitive, ruining the fucking world.” – Kumail Nanjiani ([47:12])

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7. Bullying and the Struggle for Belonging

[49:16–54:07]

• Kumail discusses being bullied at a rich-kid school in Karachi, contrasting this misery with earlier years where he was accepted.
• The bullying included public humiliation and harassment at home; Kumail lacked coping mechanisms due to a supportive upbringing—but was ill-equipped for such targeting.

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8. The Move to America – Serendipity and Fate

[54:07–57:00]

• A chance outburst in class causes a teacher to bully Kumail, resulting in him dropping biology and taking English literature—a detour that leads him to America and eventually, to discovering his creative life.
• He reflects on the idea of fate: “I am so grateful to her [that teacher] for being a total fucking asshole because I would not have this life.”

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9. Finding His Voice: Standup & The Creative Spark

[62:14–76:37]

• College in Iowa is a turning point: Kumail discovers storytelling, humor, and connection as he begins writing and performing.
• His first standup set—at a campus coffee shop—is a big success, cementing his passion.
• He details the trajectory: moving to Chicago, then New York; learning the hard realities of “bombing”; memorable shows, including his worst ever at Bonnaroo, followed by surprise opportunities.
• Throughout, Kumail emphasizes that creative breakthroughs often stem from risk, authenticity, and the willingness to own failure.

Notable Quote:

“If I had a bad set in the first month, I would have never done it again. So I’m lucky...” – Kumail Nanjiani ([68:15])

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10. Returning to Standup: Rediscovering Authenticity

[77:19–89:48]

• Kumail describes the long gap before returning to standup with Night Thoughts: “I did not miss stand up. What I missed was the feeling of being good at something.”
• He experiments to rediscover his new comedic “voice”—how to align his current stage persona with his real self—leaning into vulnerability, including stories about his beloved cat, Bagel.
• Emily (his wife) plays a major creative sounding board, advising him to address topics the audience now perceived differently because of his changed physical presence.

Notable Quotes:

“To be 100% completely authentic and true to myself on stage was the goal.” – Kumail Nanjiani ([85:11])

“There are parts of me that are just for me and my family and my wife and my friends... but to be 100% completely authentic and true to myself on stage was the goal.” – Kumail Nanjiani ([85:11])

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11. Night Thoughts: Craft, Structure, and Vulnerability

[89:48–96:34]

• Penn praises how the special builds momentum, turning from pure “bitty bits” to more profound, emotionally impactful stories about immigration, body image, anger, mental health, and grief.
• Kumail’s experience of losing his cat Bagel, and including her in the special, becomes a symbol of authenticity and the importance of delicate topics in comedy.
• The hosts note the rarity of making a crowd go 'aww' in a standup set; Kumail observes this signals new territory in standup’s emotional range.

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12. Advice to Younger Self & Closing Reflections

[97:41–99:01]

• Asked what he’d tell his 12-year-old self, Kumail answers:

“I would say you’re perfect just the way you are...I truly, really didn’t like myself at that age. I really, really, really didn’t. And I wished I was someone else. It took me so long to learn to like myself.”

He jokes: “Also, hey, you’re going to be friends with Conan O’Brien one day.”

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I was taught that even being attracted to a woman was a sin...so I started feeling like I was a bad person.”
  — Kumail Nanjiani ([18:10])

• “Two dreams just died. I’ll never be an artist, and I’ll never be her husband.”
  — Kumail Nanjiani ([28:40])

• “He [my dad] was a model for how it was possible to be a man who was in touch with his emotions.”
  — Kumail Nanjiani ([42:11])

• “Right now, ...we are watching very sensitive men who cannot admit they’re sensitive, ruining the fucking world.”
  — Kumail Nanjiani ([47:12])

• “I am so grateful to her [that teacher] for being a total fucking asshole because I would not have this life.”
  — Kumail Nanjiani ([57:06])

• “If I had a bad set in the first month, I would have never done it again. So I’m lucky...”
  — Kumail Nanjiani ([68:15])

• “To be 100% completely authentic and true to myself on stage was the goal.”
  — Kumail Nanjiani ([85:11])

• “I would say you’re perfect just the way you are.”
  — Kumail Nanjiani ([97:58])

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Timeline of Important Segments

• Night Thoughts Prompt & Guest Intro: [02:00–07:39]
• Kumail’s Sexual Awakening & Shame: [13:24–22:22]
• Childhood Crush, Art Class Humiliation: [26:02–29:49]
• Movies, Horror, Family, and Masculinity: [31:43–49:16]
• Bullying During School Transition: [49:16–54:07]
• Moving to America, Fate: [54:07–57:00]
• First Standup Steps & Chicago Bombs: [62:14–76:37]
• The Return to Standup & Night Thoughts: [77:19–89:48]
• Craft and Authenticity of Comedy: [89:48–96:34]
• Advice to 12-Year-Old Self: [97:41–99:01]

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Conclusion

This episode of Podcrushed offers a candid, often hilarious, sometimes heartbreaking exploration of Kumail Nanjiani’s formative years and the emotional undercurrents that inspired his return to standup with Night Thoughts. The discussion is rich with cultural insights, vulnerable admissions about shame and masculinity, and sharp observations on creativity and authenticity—anchored by Kumail’s signature wry, self-deprecating humor and the hosts’ empathetic questioning.

Final Note:

“You’re perfect just the way you are.”
— Kumail Nanjiani ([97:58])

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Kumail Nanjiani’s special, Night Thoughts, is streaming on Hulu.

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Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor, and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from Lemonade Media premieres November. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's morning in New York.

[Penn Badgley]

Hey, everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And I'm Kathryn Grody. And we have a new podcast.

[Penn Badgley]

It's called don't listen to Us. Many of you have asked for our advice. Tell me, what is wrong with you people.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Don't listen to us. Our take it or leave it advice show is out every Wednesday, premiering October 15th. A Lemonada Media original.

[Nava Kavilan]

Lemonade.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, I remember seeing that, you know, that Cindy Crawford commercial where like the. It was like Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi or one of those. I remember being like, I am such a sinner. I am not.

[Penn Badgley]

Welcome to podcrust. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm Sophie.

[Nava Kavilan]

And I'm Nava. And I think we would have been.

[Penn Badgley]

Your middle school besties avoiding slow dances together. Hello and welcome to Pod Crushed.

[Sophie Ansari]

Hello.

[Nava Kavilan]

Hello.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm out of breath because I just had to. I just had to walk my dog. My very. My very old dog. He's definitely getting old, guys. He's. He's like borderline incontinent right now.

[Nava Kavilan]

Poor thing.

[Penn Badgley]

It's not. It's not great news for anybody who loves dogs, which isn't me. Moving on, Our guest today has a comedy special called Night Thoughts. So I'm curious. Hit me with some night thoughts. What are some of your guys? Night thoughts, like the ones that keep you up.

[Sophie Ansari]

There's this thing between David and I where at night I will become super hyper. Right. When he's trying to fall asleep and.

[Penn Badgley]

Have a million questions, like a dog or a child.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yes.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I'm like asking him the questions and like waking him up and shaking him. He's like, please, I just want to sleep.

[Penn Badgley]

You really wake him up.

[Nava Kavilan]

We need to bring David on to hear what his night thoughts are in response to.

[Sophie Ansari]

You know, his night thoughts are regret constantly. I'm wanting to know from him, like, who would you marry? And when I die, like, if I.

[Penn Badgley]

Died prematurely, that is, who would you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Want to be with?

[Penn Badgley]

Like, out of the people we know. Sociopath.

[Sophie Ansari]

He's Never answered.

[Nava Kavilan]

Good for David. David never psa. David never. This is a trap. There is no correct answer.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's a trap. I'm like, it's a trap.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm just curious.

[Sophie Ansari]

I just want to know when he.

[Nava Kavilan]

Answers, it'll become a trap. You'll never look at that woman the same.

[Sophie Ansari]

No, I'll start naming people for him. He's like, I'm not answering this question. I think you could have a good marriage with Sophie.

[Penn Badgley]

You are way less sane than I thought you were. That is legitimately bonkers that you would.

[Nava Kavilan]

Why?

[Penn Badgley]

Are you kidding? Someone in that I am angry for men. I am becoming a men's rights activist.

[Nava Kavilan]

As of right now, Sophie radicalized pen.

[Penn Badgley]

It's official. Men are victims.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, my God.

[Penn Badgley]

I cannot believe that that is.

[Nava Kavilan]

Well, what are your night thought mine is gonna be such a letdown after Sophie's. But the other night, a few, like, maybe five nights ago, I was like, cuddling Louis and I was thinking, I wish he could talk to me. I was like, if I could have any dream come true, it would be for Louie to talk to me. And then. And then I. Of course I can make anything sad. So then I was thinking, well, if he did talk, I would be. You couldn't get over it when he died. Like, it would be like actually losing a child. And then I started thinking about all the moms I know who've lost children. So then I fell asleep. Very sad. Let' in my dream, Louis talked. I had it that night. I had a dream and Louis was talking to me. But the saddest part is when I woke up, I couldn't remember what his voice sounded like or what he said to me. And I often think about, what would Louie's voice sound like?

[Penn Badgley]

It's like the face of God, you know, you can't.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

So I.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's too powerful.

[Nava Kavilan]

I know that I experienced it, but I can't remember it. And then, so a couple nights after that, like, this was literally like five days ago. So the next two nights, I tried to make myself think about Louis talking so I could dream. But it didn't happen. Didn't work out that way. It was a one time thing.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, wow. Both of yours are so cute. I mean, Sophie's is crazy, but in, like, a cute way, I guess. I guess they seem relatively innocent. Mine is. So to be fair, if it's, like, about thoughts that you have as you're going to sleep, mine are all about, like, keep this effing child asleep as long as he will because he wakes up so early, my 5 year old. So right now, the way that we have it, my wife Dom sleeps with the twins. I sleep with a five year old. It's like, it's just the only way that things are working. And so I am. My goal is to get him in bed like this kid needs. If he doesn't get 10 hours of sleep, which you know, is kind of hard to nail. Oh my God, he can be a maniac. When he wakes up, he's like, Sophie, just waking me up, asking me questions.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Like, if I die, what kind of child would you like to have? Daddy, which child would you raise me?

[Penn Badgley]

And he actually is rage baiting me. He actually is just waiting for me to say anything. Then he's like, no, why did you say that? And I'll have a tantrum and be like.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And then I'll.

[Penn Badgley]

Why did you say that? Why are you standing there talking? It's like, because you are talking to me right now.

[Sophie Ansari]

They're so irrational.

[Penn Badgley]

The difference between him and Sophie is that he's five.

[Sophie Ansari]

Unlike toddlers, they're so irrational.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Complaining about unai. You know who has some grade A Hulu level Disney paid Night Thoughts is our guest, Kumail Nanjani. You might either know him from his days of standup over a decade ago. Pushing on, I suppose two decades ago, you might know him when he really had his glow up as a writer and a star of the Big Sick, which he co wrote with his wife and was nominated for an Oscar. You might know him from Stint in the Marvel Universe. You might know him from Silicon Valley. You might know him from welcome to Chippendales, Poker Face. That's right. Only murder.

[Sophie Ansari]

He's in everything.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, my goodness. What you now will know him from is his new stand up special, the first one in sounds like 10 years night thoughts, which is available on Hulu. Just as much as we want you to stick around for this episode, we also want you to leave in your comments. Just give us some Night Thoughts.

[Nava Kavilan]

You know.

[Sophie Ansari]

Content King, I heard you called Content King on another podcast. I thought, that's great. He is Content King.

[Penn Badgley]

That is rich. I'm gonna wake up David with that one.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I loved it.

[Nava Kavilan]

I will never forget the time that I went to Italy to meet my sister and my best friend and my flight was delayed out of Rome and I missed the meeting point with everyone and didn't have a cell phone so I couldn't tell them. So my friend and my sister waited for me for hours in the airport, then finally Left. And then I got locked out of the Airbnb and roamed, literally roamed the streets of Venice in the middle of the night while it was raining. Like, not knowing how to get in touch with anyone. It was an absolute nightmare. And after that, I promised myself that I would never, ever be in a situation like that abroad again, where I didn't have a way to communicate with people easily. So, literally, that just wouldn't have happened if I had packed the Internet. Which is exactly what Airalo lets you do. Your phone probably supports esims, which is where Airalo comes in. Before you even leave, just download the Airalo app, pick your destination esim, choose your plan length and data amount, install it, and boom, you're connected the moment you land. It really is that easy. That means no surprise roaming fees, no airport kiosks, no desperate hunt for a weak public WI fi. Just pay for the data you need and top up anytime you can stream, scroll, text, navigate, and even video call home without stressing about your bill. Airalo works in over 200 destinations and is trusted by over 20 million travelers. Honestly, I just wish I'd known about it sooner. So do what I do. If you have an international trip coming up, download the Airalo app now or visit airalo.com that's a I R A L O dot com. Use code podcrush for 15% off your first esim terms apply.

[Penn Badgley]

All right, so if you're a parent like me, I'm a father now of four boys. If you haven't heard me mention it before, then you're probably not a listener of the podcast much, are you? It's really hit me hard because. Because guess what? I have twins. I have pretty newborn twins. They're just over three months old now. And in fact, if you listen closely, you can hear one on my chest right now sleeping in a wrap, which I love. I love wearing my babies whenever I can, truly. But that means that when they're pressed up against me like this, guess what? They're zippers and buttons on so many baby clothes on all of them. And when they're pressed up against me like this, it can be kind of uncomfortable for them, depending on, you know, the item of clothing, some of them more so than others. Now there's this brand Magnetic Me, that makes this way easier. It's a serious game changer, parents, really. If you haven't tried these clothes with the easy to use magnetic closures, now is the time. So I just got a couple of things my wife might prefer. You know, one item or another. There's the magnetic romper that I know we like. For me, it kind of doesn't matter. It's the fact that it makes diaper changing a breeze when it's in the middle of the night. Anybody who's ever changed a diaper in the middle of the night, I mean it can get messy. You need to be able to act fast. You know, this is essential. I actually can't believe it took someone this long to figure this out. Trust me, you need magnetic me to make changing time easier for you and baby. If you're a parent or shopping for one for the holidays, go now to magneticme.com they have the cutest gift boxes to wrap gifts and have anything from baby to toddler. Plus new customers will get 15% off. Don't wait. That's magneticme.com if you have got travel coming up, visiting family, heading abroad maybe. Or maybe you've got a dream trip for the new year. Imagine feeling confident greeting people where you're going in their own language. Rosetta Stone makes it easy to feel more connected and have a richer experience wherever you go. With 30 years of experience, millions of users and 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German, Japanese and more, Rosetta Stone is the go to tool for real language growth. Rosetta Stone fits your lifestyle with flexible on the go learning. You're able to access lessons from your desktop or mobile app whether you have or an hour. For me, my 16, nearly 17 year old, he is now in I think Spanish 3. He could speak probably nearly fluent Spanish if he had someone in the house to speak Spanish with. I really want to be able to live run this. I would love to have, well, you know, deep conversations in English and maybe we can order food in Spanish. That's where we'll have to start naturally. Rosetta Stone has been really helpful for doing just that. I love how their True Accent feature gives real time feedback on my pronunciat pronunciation. It's helping me feel a little bit more confident, sometimes a lot more confident in my Spanish speaking abilities. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. Podcast listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com podcrushed to get started and claim your 50% off today. Give a gift that keeps giving. Go to rosettastone.com podcrushed and start learning. Give us a snapshot of life for you at 12.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So this is what happened around 11 or 12, maybe even earlier. Slightly earlier. But this is a big moment. My cousin, who was much older than me, I was visiting him, and he lived in another country, and he closed the door and he came and he sat across from me, and he was like, so do you know what fucking is? And I was like, no, I have no idea. What are you talking about? And so he explains in great detail. I don't know why I wasn't particularly close with this cousin. He was just. For some reason, he was, like, two or three years older than me, which at that age is so much older. For some reason, he could not wait to explain to me in great detail what fucking was.

[Penn Badgley]

Was he.

[Nava Kavilan]

Right?

[Penn Badgley]

Like, did he get all the. All the points?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Right? He was very accur. I knew something was up, you know, like, not to get too dirty, but I knew that there was too much infrastructure down there for just, like, what I was using it for. Right, right, right. Like, I knew there was too much infrastructure.

[Penn Badgley]

That's a good way to put it. Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And I had. Before that. Sorry, you started at 12, you told me.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, that's fine. Hey, listen, this is fault.

[Nava Kavilan]

No, this is our fault. We take responsibility.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I had noticed already that I was like, whenever I look at a poster of the movie Beastmaster, something strange starts happening. And I was like, I feel like this is a major discovery I've made, and when I grow up, I'm gonna become a scientist and find out why this is happening and come to the world and be like, for whatever reason, whenever I see. I was a big fan of, like, fantasy movies. I was like, whenever I watch fantasy movies, there's a physical change that occurs. And I don't know if you guys have noticed this, but for me, it's, like, really one to one. Like, it's 100% of the time.

[Sophie Ansari]

I remember having the same thought. That's so funny.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. I watched Beastmaster recently, and I'll tell you, it's still a perfect batting record on that movie. Regards to this. And so I'm turning red. I know it's hard to tell with my skin color. And so he explained it to me in great detail. And then I had another cousin who was like. I was like, hey, this other cousin told me this thing. And this cousin was a couple years younger than me, and he was like, oh, so we should both. What we're gonna do is. And he told me my older cousin told me how to masturbate. And so me and my cousin were hanging out, and he was like, okay, we're both Gonna do this. I'm gonna go into the bathroom first and then do it. And then you're gonna go in and you're gonna do it.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Is this blind Reading the blind.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Is this within the scope of this podcast?

[Sophie Ansari]

At least it was. I thought you were gonn. I was going to say.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

No, no, no, no, no. I want to clarify, you know, like, there was nothing inappropriate with any of these cousins. Like when my cousin told me that there was truly nothing about it that was. It was only weird in the way it wasn't creepy. It wasn't.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nava Kavilan]

Well, I mean, you know.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Okay, I wouldn't say it wasn't. I would say it wasn't intentionally creepy.

[Penn Badgley]

That's what I mean.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's a lot of information to lay on a 12 year old. Like from going from knowing nothing. All that is a lot. And so I talked about this a little bit in my standup, but I remember my cousin went in and he was in there for like five minutes. He came out and his face was red and I asked him how was it? And his mouth moved but no sound came out. And then I remember he had a BB gun and he went out and he shot a crow.

[Penn Badgley]

No.

[Nava Kavilan]

Whoa.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I know. That's another horrible, horrible apex of masculinity. It was a horrible memory. And you know, this cousin, who I'm still very close with all my cousins, he always loved like BB guns and he loved like learning to drive. And at this age, for me, for a long. I never felt like this is a whole other thing. I never felt like I was manly enough, you know, And I sort of knew that about myself and I didn't like that about myself. Anyway, I went in and I. God, guys, there's too much detail. It was like, it was so quick. It was like my body had been waiting, like, what took so fucking long, you know? And so that summer really became like, I remember thinking out loud to myself, like, oh, this is going to be a problem. And it was, you know, so that summer was really all about that. But the weird thing about it is, you know, I had a very conservative Muslim upbringing. I was taught that even being attracted to a woman was a sin, you know, not just. Not just acting on it, but that if you. If you think if you look at a woman and you get like impure thoughts, that's a sin in itself. And so I started feeling like I was a bad person because having these feelings.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. And earlier probably. Right. I mean, you were having those.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. From before that. Yeah. I remember seeing that you know that Cindy Crawford commercial where, like, it was like, Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi or one of those vaguely.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yeah, I do know what you're talking about.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I vaguely think I do.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I remember being like, I am such a sinner. I am not. And so it was this, like. It became this constant cycle of not being able to stop myself from doing it and then feeling intense shame right afterwards. Like, immediate, like, going from, like, you know, ecstasy to extreme. I would not. Depression. I'm fortunate I've never had to deal with that. But, like, extreme guilt and feeling like I'm a bad person. And now when I look back, I feel so sorry for that guy because, you know, I'm 12. I'm. And I'm fighting against, like, the very force that's led to the survival of our species. You know, it's so unfair to have.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, you can't win that battle.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

No, I didn't. I lost that battle multiple times a day.

[Sophie Ansari]

Multiple times a day.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And so. Yeah. Oh, my God. And so that sort of. That sort of cycle really played in my head over and over and over and over. And it really wasn't until, like, sort of a few years ago. I'm 47 now. I was into my 30s when I realized, like, oh, I have always thought of myself at my career core as a bad person who's pretending to be good. And it goes back to that period because I was having these feelings. I was taught that those feelings meant there was something wrong with me. And so it wasn't until sort of fairly recently that I was like. And it's. Through therapy and all that being like, no, I'm a. I'm a good person. But it's. It's. It's a. It's a struggle that's still. That's still part of me other than that, which is a huge thing. My. Sort of. Those years 12 to 15, 16, were really, really great. I really had. My family's. We have a big, very, like, connected family. I grew up in Karachi, Pakistan, which is sort of like.

[Nava Kavilan]

It's like.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I think it's now it's like over 20 million people. It's, like, very much like the New York of Pakistan. It's the concrete jungle, people everywhere. It's loud. You know, it's like a very exciting city. It's also, in many ways, a dangerous city, but it was really. It's a really exciting place to grow up and had an extended family. And we all went out to dinner every Friday, like, this huge 25, 30, you know, we Get a massive table. And I love my family and I have a very fun, very loud family. So. So that stuff was all, was all really good, really fun. I was obsessed with movies and video games. So in that period I was. I would once a week I'd go to the video store, get like 7 VHS, watch a movie every single day. I wasn't really like a going outside kid very much. Like, I wasn't like hyper social. I really wasn't. And that's kind of what I did. I played video games, I watched movies. I was very good at school. I studied all the time. Because I was like at that age, I realized like, okay, I felt I had not much going for me. I was like, I'm not good at sports. Girls aren't interested in me. All I really have is I can work hard and get good grades. So that was sort of my identity at that point was, oh, I'm the guy who gets good grades. And I. And I studied more than anybody I knew. I studied, I studied a lot. I played video games and watched movies. And that was sort of my life from about, you know, 12 to 15 or 16. And I really, really, I really loved it.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm curious of this, this picture that you painted. Kumail, 12 years old, masturbating all the time.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

All the time.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I want to know, like, what were the conversations? Were you able to keep that to yourself? Like, did your parents ever find out? Were there any conversations between you and them about like your body, your sexual impulses, sex?

[Penn Badgley]

Girls, go back to your cousin and say, what have you done?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

No. Are you joking? Bringing up sex to my parents.

[Sophie Ansari]

Did they bring it up to you?

[Penn Badgley]

No.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

We still haven't talked about it. We never talked about it. We were not taught about it in school. We do not talk about it. It's so. It's the contrast between my parents relationship with all this stuff and my wife Emily's relations. She grew up in North Carolina and her family is, I think, sort of very open in a way that's fairly rare too. So they would call it. They would call sex wrapping Christmas presents. So like when we started visiting her.

[Penn Badgley]

In North Carolina, it could be a little bit confusing.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. If anything, stuff is getting unwrapped. And so when we would visit them around Christmas, when Emily and I were just like going to our room in the basement, they'd be like, are you guys gonna wrap Christmas presents? I'm like, I do not want to have this interact with you. Like, they, I think, enjoyed how uncomfortable I was with this you know, oh, my God. And they would swear in front of each other, which was so different. Like, my. My family does not swear. I was at a family wedding last year, and I said in front of my mom, I'm in my 40s. And she was like, why would you. Why would you say that? Why would you say that to me? I was being funny. I was. And I didn't even think of it as, like a. A big thing, but I was like, oh, clearly we haven't. Like, that's still the line that I cannot cross with them, so. No, not at all. Obviously, I think they knew and. Oh, I did this thing again. I've talked about this in my standup where I had two VCRs. And, you know, you could. I don't know, I might be older than you guys, I don't know, but you could, like, record movies. Like, you could hook them up and make copies of VHS. Yeah. So I started doing. I got so obsessed with it. And I would feel bad, but I got obsessed with it. I would get, like, porn tapes from friends and I would. I had all these movies, you know, I was a big movie fan, and I would record scenes in the middle of the movies I had. So, like, I've never actually seen.

[Penn Badgley]

Right.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

To bury it. Yeah, to bury it. I've never seen the movie Enemy Mine, but I still hate it many times. But I've. Yeah, but I've seen. I know. Yeah. There's like a little moment right before the good stuff starts that I've seen. This is.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, it's high tech.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. Yeah. No, it was. I mean, it just. Cause I needed to protect myself so much. So when my parents were out of the house, you know, it was. I would have to, like, record this, and I would have to record it before I masturbated. Because once I knew that once I masturbated, I wouldn't want to do it because I feel so bad. And so it really felt like there were two versions of me. There was the version of me that was into this stuff and the version of me that hated the version of me that was into this stuff, you know?

[Penn Badgley]

Wow. Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So it was a lot of. A lot of. I think, for all of us. You know, when you're going through puberty, it's such a uncontrollable thing.

[Sophie Ansari]

What were your experiences around actual, like, crushes and love and heartbreak with other people?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

With other people. Thank you very much. I really like this girl in. I think it was the fifth grade or the sixth grade. I won't say her name, but I really liked this girl. And, you know, the way our school worked was you'd get a rank at the end of the year. Like I said, grades were very important to me. So you don't just get, like, a GPA or whatever. It's like you're first in class, you're second in class, whatever. And she was always first, and I was always second. And I was completely taken with this girl. And I don't know how, but somehow my family figured out it was a different cousin's dad, who's like this lovely, lovely man, actually. Oh, there's so much here. Anyway, he sort of. I don't know how he found out that I had a crush on this girl. And he would tease me about her all the time. Like, he was more. He was a little more, like, open with this stuff than my family was. My family would never talk about this, but he would be like, oh, how's. How's that girl? How's she doing? How are her grades? I don't know how he figured out that I, like, really, really like this girl. But I remember when I was a kid, when I was around that age, so I guess this is around 12. Earlier, I really wanted to be, like. I loved comic books. I really wanted to be like. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a cartoonist. But I was very, very bad at drawing. I just could not do it. And I remember very specifically there was one assignment where we had to draw a hand. So I was drawing my. My left hand, you know, with my right hand looking at it, and I just could not get it right. It was awful. And I was erasing, and I was doing it again. I was erasing and doing it again in art class. And it just got worse and worse. And you could see where I'd erased it. It looked like. Like an alien. It was horrible. And I remember I finally was like. It was towards the end of class. I can't get it any better. And I thought, this is the best. I could get it. And I took it up to my art teacher in front of class. This girl was there. I really do wonder what she's up to. She had her drawing, and I went and I showed my drawing, and both the teacher and her started laughing at it. And they were not being cruel. The art teacher really liked me, and she felt really bad, bad for laughing. I do not blame them. They were not making fun of me. They just both laughed. And I was like, all right. Two dreams just died. I'll never be an artist, and I'll never be her husband. And that truly was when I was like, okay, I can't. I'm. I'm not going to be an artist. I can't do it. And so that I remember being very, like, very devastating too.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's so sad. It's like you. I can think back to moments like that in my own childhood around, like, achievement. And it's those tiny moments where for a child, it's so fragile. Like, you had this dream, and of course, if you really wanted to do it, you could. You know, it didn't come down to that one hand. You could have done it, but.

[Penn Badgley]

Which means you couldn't have done it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I do want to dispute you on that. I don't think I could have done it.

[Nava Kavilan]

You don't think you could have done it?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I don't got it. You know, like, I know. I know now I'm comfortable with the things I'm good at, the things I'm not good at. And drawing art is just something I don't. I never. Cause the amount of time I put into it, I would draw all the time. And I never got. I never got any good at it at that age.

[Penn Badgley]

Often, you know, we find, you know, for instance, at 12, I moved to LA and started acting. And I was professional at that age. So, you know, wow. We do find that at 12, there's at least the beginning stirrings of if this is somebody who's become a performing artist, a writer, a creative professional later in life, usually there is something on the horizon there at least. Did you have a sense that was writing? Cause it seems to me like you're a writer. I mean, yes, there is much else that then blossoms from that, and you do other things, but you're kind of a writer at heart. I mean, it seems like you've said that. What was your relationship to writing at this point?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's true. I do consider myself primarily a writer, and everything else comes from that. And I do love acting. I love all of it. But the reason I started standup was I was like, I'm a writer and I don't know how to get my writing up there, and this is the most efficient way I can do it. I did not think of myself as a writer then because it just felt like movies were made by gods from another land. It did not feel like a real possibility at all. So. So anybody who knew me until I was 18 is very surprised that I do this, because I didn't have any. I was Sort of trying to write in secret. I remember trying to write, like, a fantasy novel in secret, but then being embarrassed that I was trying to do it. Didn't get very far. But I knew that I liked that stuff. But I never thought I would be able to do it because it just didn't feel like a possible. I'm not from a family that's really artsy and any kind of way.

[Nava Kavilan]

You know, you have mentioned before that comedy helps, I think, draw people to bigger, more significant issues. And I'm curious what movies while you were growing up really helped draw you to issues that you found important or were, like, really formative for you?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, I mean, I don't know if movies drew me to, like, you know, issues that were important, but I loved. Like I said I loved.

[Penn Badgley]

They drew you more to climax, maybe.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. Krull, Beastmaster, Corn and the Barbarian. I mean, any of these movies. Total Recall. I mean, you know, the girl with the three breasts? Do you remember that?

[Penn Badgley]

That, like, you know, wow. I have heard about this. I'm not remembering that. I've never seen Total Recall. Isn't that crazy?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I think it's a great movie. I don't. I haven't seen it a long time, but when I saw it as a kid, it blew my mind on many different levels.

[Penn Badgley]

Three.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. I was like, oh, wow.

[Nava Kavilan]

The possibilities are endless.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I have so much to learn. So I. The movies I love. I watched a lot of Bollywood movies, like Indian movies. My parents and I would watch one every weekend or two every weekend. But the Hollywood movies I liked were sort of the ones that everybody liked. Ghostbusters, obviously. Watched that over and over. I remember when I first heard about Ghostbusters, I was like, wait, it has ghosts? And it's funny. It's like a movie engineered for me. ET I watched a lot. That was the saddest I'd. And I talked about this in Stand up, too. But I watched, like, Elephant man too young. Cause I thought it was a superhero movie, and it's just a very sad movie.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wait, you said Ghostbusters is engineered for you because it's about ghosts and it's funny. Do you have any. What's your obsession with ghosts? Do you have any actual ghost stories?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

No. I love horror movies, though. Like, I've been watching horror movies since I was a little kid. We had this. We had this weird thing. I had an uncle who was the dad of the guy who told me, like, what sex is. And we're all still very close. They used to live in Qatar. I Love that.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's how we know your family tree. Okay, got it, got it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yes, yes, yes. That's the guy who told you what? Sex? Yes, exactly, exactly. All the important connections, you know, know. He visited and he had made some deal with a guy in Karachi where he had smuggled like 200 VHS tapes from Qatar to Karachi. And he was staying with us but came to our house. I remember he'd hidden them inside diapers. So we had these like, it was these stacks of like diaper bags that had VHS tapes hidden in them. And so the guy was supposed to come pick up these 200 movies and the guy just never showed up. So suddenly out of nowhere one day I had like 200 new movies in my house.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Wow. Incredible. And they were all like action movies, like the original gone in 60 seconds. And there were all these horror movies. Like there was one called, I remember there was one called Hell Night with I think Linda Blair. And I wasn't allowed to watch the horror movies but my parents were out of the house and it would be like, you know, first I do the porn and once that's done then I watch a secret horror movie and you.

[Penn Badgley]

Feel miserable and then you just compound it with existential dread of horror.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You punish yourself. Self harm. So I just suddenly I fell in love with horror movies and I was really, really afraid of the dark for too long because I was watching these movies maybe till I was like 13 or 14, I was afraid of the dark. I remember my parents being genuinely worried, like hey, you're too old to be like in the middle of the night. My parents would be like, I'm also from a very late family. My mom still goes to bed at 2am every day.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

They'll, they'll. I. I saw the newest Mission Impossible with my family on a Wednesday night. An 11:30 showing.

[Sophie Ansari]

Sounds like a fun family.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's a very fun family. It's a really, it's a really, really fun. I genuinely have. I just did a standup tour and when I was in Toronto, I have a lot of family there. We went out afterwards and my wife Emily was there and I was just like, look how fun my family is. It's a great, it's such a fun.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's so nice. Kum.

[Sophie Ansari]

And we'll be right back.

[Nava Kavilan]

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[Penn Badgley]

It'll probably be relevant later, but I do just want to touch on the fact that you Know, in your. In your new special, you say you said other things. And then, of course, I mean, I know you drew at least, so, you know, you touch on, like, this particular kind of relationship with parents that isn't autobiographical in the Big Sick, but you've kind, you know, you just make a lot of references. And then you say something about your dad in the new special that I thought was just really telling that he got in this major accident and the first thing he did. It sounds like the first thing. He basically crawled out of the wreckage and called you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Is that right? And that I found so touching. And so, you know, there's a lot of interesting dynamics in your family. And you talk about how conservative it is on one hand, but then on another, it actually sounds particularly for where it is, like, maybe quite liberal in some ways or just. Or maybe liberal isn't the word, but it just sounds like it's very rich. And I'm curious in particular, a boy's relationship with his father. There's. I mean, there's nothing like it. It's a thing. And I just. I'm curious if you. At that age, if you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Felt. It sounds like you felt like you could go to him.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, I did go to him. I could have gone to him. You know, what's interesting about my dad is, like I said from the ages of, like, 12 to, you know, 18 or so, where I felt like I wasn't, like, manly enough. You know, I remember specifically being like, oh, I have to learn how to walk like a man. And I remember, like, practicing my walk to be more manly. I knew that the way I spoke wasn't, like, really. And it still really isn't, but. And I think part of that is just being afraid of, like, the feminine part of me and my dad. What I always got from my dad was a model of how it was possible to be a man who was in touch with his emotions. My dad would cry often when it was appropriate to cry. You know, he still cries whenever he can't talk about any of my things. I've done without, like, starting to cry. But I've watched him cry since I was a little kid. And I remember really being embarrassed by it then and being like, oh, my dad's not a real man. And then now being so grateful and also being so grateful that I had a model for how to be a man who was in touch with his emotions in that way. But I also feel bad that back then I was rejecting that, you know, and my other cousins and my cousins, my uncle who would make fun of me for being in love with this. For being in love with this girl. He was a very, very soft man. And I remember my grandfather, who's my dad's dad, sort of making fun of him for being, like, a soft man. And so I remember in that age, obviously, the societal pressures. And, you know, Pakistan's very specific. The gender roles in Pakistan are. I don't know how it is now, but back then, they're very defined here. But they were very defined over there, too, back then. And just knowing, like, oh, I cannot be the kind of man that cries. I cannot be the kind of man who has any kind of qualities that I consider to be female. And then this shame at not being good at sport. Cause men are good at sports. You know, that kind of stuff. And I talk in the special about how long it took me to be able to admit when I'm sad or when I'm scared, all that comes from. And it's also, like, just the pressure you put on yourself. It wasn't really from specifically my family, certainly not my dad or anything, but all that kind of stuff from 18 to. From 12 to 18 or whatever really kind of fucked me up. And it took me a while to try and unravel all that, because when I was a kid, the other movies I really loved that I watched over and over. I loved Sound of Music and I loved Mary Poppins. And I would watch those movies over and over. And then going into. Even into my 20s and being like, I don't like musicals. Musicals are not for men. And then it wasn't really until a few years ago in the Pandemic, actually, where Emily and I started watching musicals. And I was like, oh, I love this genre. Like, I love how dramatic it is and how expressive it is. And it took me so long to come to terms with the fact that I am very sensitive. My feelings get hurt very easily. And that's just what it is. I have to be able to, like, admit that and sit in that, like, even now, you know, I've been, like. I've been, like, pitching a movie. And every rejection hits me very deeply.

[Sophie Ansari]

And it, by the way, is a very masculine thing, actually, because what man is not extremely sensitive? In my experience, I think that's true.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I think that's exactly right. And I think the trouble a lot of men get into is when they don't admit that, and then it turns into anger, and it comes out in these sort of calcified, unproductive ways. Because I talk about in My special about how we're sort of taught as men that anger is the only manly emotion. Sadness is weakness. Fear is weakness, even happiness. When you watch sports, men watching sports, when something good happens, they go. It turns into aggression immediately, actually.

[Penn Badgley]

So I really started to feel. I've thought that. But then when you have a child, you start to see the world kind of fresh, just kind of necessarily. It can happen because you realize they're seeing this thing. I love watching soccer.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Like.

[Penn Badgley]

Like European football, like, good soccer. And. And. Sorry, Maybe that's a. Is that maybe a political thing now to. Not. No, the mls. Sorry.

[Nava Kavilan]

But.

[Penn Badgley]

When my. When my. He's now five, but when he was like, maybe two and a half, I think he might have seen, like, you know, that, like, somebody scored a goal. And I think I remember looking over at him and he was just kind of like, you know, because these men look like they're. They're going to rip each other apart. And it's hard to explain.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yes, it is hard.

[Penn Badgley]

It's like they're happy and. And, you know, make no mistake, that boy is seeing these men as, like, this is what happy looks like.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, that's confusing. I mean, that's confusing.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It is. I mean, that's the modeling we get, you know, and it's. Sometimes it's on purpose, and often it's not. And, Sophie, what you were saying about men being sensitive, I think that's so true. I think right now, without getting political, we are watching very sensitive men who cannot admit that they're sensitive ruining the fucking world. Like, I could think. Think of the people that we would think of, like, oh, this guy's ruining the world. You could tell. You could see how sensitive they are and how much they hate that about themselves and how they want to be strong. I think of them as these, like, little. Little tiny, little boys piloting man suits. You know, like these giant mech things that want to be strong, but you could see how much it hurts them. And I think it's tremendously destructive.

[Penn Badgley]

No, absolutely.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

12 to 18. It's, like, really formative, and you're sort of figuring out what person you are, what kind of man you're going to be. I felt the things I did. I've talked about this before. The things I did ended up really working against me, ended up working against my own happiness. I think it ended up giving me a lot of anxiety, and it wasn't. And then all through my 20s and 30s, I was different. I was like, oh, I'm cool. You asked this earlier, were you cool? In my 20s and 30s, I was like, oh, I'm cool. I dress a certain way. I do this, whatever it is. I go out, I go parties and all this. And it wasn't really until a couple years ago that I realized, like, oh, I'm the exact same person I was when I was 14. I just like that guy now. That's the only thing that's changed is that I. That's so sweet, is that I like that guy. And I do. Really. It was hard. It's hard for everyone at that age. But now when I look back on it, it was particularly hard for me, and I was particularly hard on myself. And it led to me having, like, still a bad relationship with food, I think. You know, I, I, I don't want to. I'm not saying I have an eating disorder or anything, but I do have a disordered relationship with eating, and it all comes from that. From wanting to be a certain kind of, Certain kind of guy.

[Penn Badgley]

No, that's very relatable.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

The other big thing that happened that was really, like, seismic for me around that age was I was in the same. I, I switched schools at, like, grade six and then grade six to. You guys have 11 years of schooling here, right?

[Nava Kavilan]

We have 13. We kindergarten and then 12 years of first grade.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So they're like, from grade one, it's grade to 12, so we have an extra year. We have 13. We have kindergarten and then 13. So when I got to college, I was a year older than everybody. So we go to college. You guys generally would graduate high school at 18. We generally would graduate high school at 19. So it's like a year longer. And my last two years, so it would have been the 12th grade and the 13th grade. I moved to a different school because I wanted to come to the US to study. The plan for our family was always like, I go to a school that primarily has instruction in English and then that used that to sort of try and get into a college in America. And that's how I ended up in Iowa. I'll let you guys know about that. But my last two years, I went to a school that was particularly good at placing kids in American colleges. And so I went to a school that was kind of a rich kid school. And I was not a rich kid. I would say we were like middle class. And in Karachi, you know, the wealth disparity is so huge that just the fact that we had a house and a car really puts you above most people. So I'm not saying that we Were. There were certainly times I remember as a kid when times were tough and we had to be like, okay, you can't spend money. And I remember money always being an issue my entire life where my dad was a doctor, but he worked at a clinic in a poor part of town. And it was one of those where, like, everybody gives, like five rupees and they just go and see him. And I would go sometimes visit him at his clinic. And it was just like lines of people. And his clientele was primarily people who were very, very poor. So we were okay. But money was always. Was always, always, like, tough. It was like good and bad times. And I went to the school where they were all like, really, really rich kids. You know, like, these kids are, like, very, very wealthy. Two years in this new school were absolutely fucking miserable for me because I had a crush on a girl that ended up dating one of the cool kids. And then she dumped him and then her and I kind of dated for a very little bit. So I went from invisible to, like, suddenly very visible. And then I was really, relentlessly bullied for those two years. And I'd gone from a situation in my school before that where I was a nerd, but everyone kind of liked me. You know, Like, I had one of these where, like, I got, like, detention once by mistake. And it was a total, like, breakfast club situation where I became friends with the bad kids. So I was friends with the nerdy kids, but also, like, the bad kids kind of liked me. So I was like. I had a pretty good. Like I said, I wasn't super social. I wasn't going out, but everybody liked me at this school. Or I was invisible. And then suddenly at the school, I was visible and I was a target. And those two years were among the worst, like, years of my life. Still, like, really, really.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm so sorry to hear that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It was really miserable. Like, they came to my house and threw eggs at me and this kind of stuff. When I was like, 17, I was 18, probably actually when that happened. And it's so embarrassing to have to like. I remember, like, trying to clean the eggs before my parents came home. Cause I didn't want to explain to them, you know, what went on. So those two years were. Were really, really, really miserable. Cause I didn't have any, like, coping mechanisms in place because deal with bullying. I came from a very supportive family. I was in a school situation that was pretty good for me. And then suddenly to be, like, relentlessly targeted people coming to my home. It was those two years were really, really tough. Anyway, so then, then the reason I came to Iowa was because we were going to come to the U.S. i didn't really have a sense that I didn't realize how big America was. Wise, because I knew America from movies. And you see like New York and LA and that's it. You don't see Iowa. I hadn't seen Field of Dreams. Yeah. So I did not know. And so I just applied to a bunch of liberal arts schools. Cause I didn't know what I wanted to be. And I applied to a bunch of liberal arts schools in like tiny towns or like rural areas because I was kind of like, oh, I've lived in a big city. I want to see what that's like. And the school I went to was a school called. It's called Grinnell College. It's in a tiny. It's a town of 9,000 people in the middle of Iowa. That was the highest ranked school I got into. So I landed in Iowa and I had. I had no idea what to expect. It was just very different from what you guys had advertised for the rest of the world, you know.

[Penn Badgley]

So how did you feel leaving, you know, the only, the only home you'd ever known? Like the, the only place you'd ever known. What, what was that shift like? You know, like when you. How did you feel? Like maybe in the months preceding where, you know, you found you're accepted, you know you're gonna go. And then, and then I'm curious, like, you set foot off the plane in again, a very unadvertised part of our country. Like, you know, what are, what are you thinking at this point?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

The first day I'm in this new school, I don't know anybody, I'm intimidated. Everyone's like, better looking than me. They have better hair, they. Than me. And we're all just talking and the teacher comes in and she goes, oh my God, so many kids. She like screamed it out loud. And everyone got quiet. And I was like, huh? I just said that just as a reaction. And she was like, who said that? And I raised my hand and she's like. She literally said to me in front of class, she was like, I'm gonna make life hell for you. Because she wanted kids to drop the class. Cause she had too many kids. So literally for the next two weeks, every single class, she was a fucking asshole to me. She'd be like, why do you have that stupid look on your face? Why are you looking at me like that? Why do you have this stupid look on Your face. Two weeks into this relentless bullying, I was like, I don't wanna be a doctor that bad. So I dropped biology and I took English literature instead because they had room in that class. Cut to two years later when I'm graduating and I'm coming to Iowa. Iowa. All my friends were pre med and they were all going to this, this really good med school in Karachi called Aga Khan. All my friends are going there and I'm absolutely miserable because I, like you said, Penn, I'm leaving to go to another country. It's not my first language. I can speak it, but I don't. I've never spoken it all day. And I'm going to the other part of the world. I'm terrified. I love my parents and I. And I'm like, I wish, I wish, I wish I hadn't dropped that class. And I'm so hard on myself. I'm like, if I hadn't dropped that class, I would have gone to this med school. I would have been with all my friends and the truly, truly knowing in that moment that if I hadn't dropped biology, I could have stayed home and, you know, gone with my friends to this school and become a doctor. And then, of course, I ended up coming here. The first two weeks in America were among my most miserable two weeks of my life. And then things got better and I really loved it. And I made wonderful friends. I went to a very supportive school. I had a really great group of friends. I realized I was funny. I didn't realize I was funny until then I started doing stand up. And now I have this life I have. And I truly think if I had not said that, huh? In that one class, wow, Decades ago, I would not be here talking to you guys right now. I'd be a driver king.

[Nava Kavilan]

The whole time you were saying that, I wanted to ask you, do you believe in fate? Because although your teacher's behavior was indefensible.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It feels like I am so grateful to her for being a total fucking asshole because I would not have this life.

[Nava Kavilan]

Because now you're talking to us.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Which is really the pinnacle of success.

[Nava Kavilan]

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[Nava Kavilan]

What if the justice system wasn't just about punishment?

[Sophie Ansari]

What if it could support more productive.

[Nava Kavilan]

Lives, healthier families and stronger communities?

[Penn Badgley]

We changed the quality of life in the neighborhood.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Homicides dropped 44% in the first couple of years.

[Nava Kavilan]

I'm your host Ana Zamora and I'll.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Show you what a better justice system.

[Sophie Ansari]

Actually looks like because it's already happening. Season two of When It Clicked from Lemonada Media is available December 10th. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, it's interesting for somebody who has such a. I mean, you know, like again, you're a writer. You're actually an Oscar nominated writer. You're a writer through and through. Like, you've made it your craft, your livelihood, and you've done it now for a long time and at a high level. And I mean for you to not even have a sense yet of that before you're in this different place that is like, hey, you know, be yourself, self, self, self, self, self, self. Explore everything. You know, I mean, like, in good and bad ways. I'm just. That's like, interesting to hear.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, that's such an interesting thing you bring up because that's sort of the American narrative about itself. It's all personal freedom and there's good there and there is a lot of bad there. But this idea of like, find out who you are, what do you want to be when you grow up, all that stuff, you know, like individuality, the particularly American focus on individuality. We didn't have that, you know, we were a very, like, it's a very community based culture. Like, we don't, you know, it's still mostly arranged marriage because it's sort of a thing between families, that kind of stuff. So we didn't have that kind of pressure to be like, what's your dreams? Fulfill your dreams. What are you gonna be? You could be anything you want. We don't really, we didn't really have that. To me, I was like, I have like three options. There's, and there is a ranking. There's doctor, there's engineer, and there's lawyer. And those are, you know, those are sort of like the three paths that were in front of me. So I never, I never thought of it as a, as a reality that I did not feel there was any focus on. I don't think there's an obviously enough focus on arts here, but growing up where I was, there certainly wasn't focus on arts at all. Like, I don't know anybody else who wanted to like, do what I wanted to do, what I do now at all. It wasn't something that was prioritized at all.

[Penn Badgley]

You start doing standup pretty, pretty soon or like, I mean, what, how, how quickly after you move here are you doing standup?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Actually, my first year, you know, you take a thing called, I'm sure you guys have. We called it a tutorial where you take like one class that's just teaching you how to be a college student. And it's generally a more like fun topic. It's not like chemistry or biology, it's something more specific. And the class I took was stories, storytelling and audience. I remember I wrote a story that I liked. And I remember, like, running it over and over and over again in my head. I remember in the shower, just running that story over and over again in my head. And then I remember performing that story in front of class. And it was kind of thrilling, you know, it was like, really exciting. It was like a horror story that I wrote. Like a sci fi horror story. And I remember it had like a big, like, reveal punch at the end, the last line. So I was like, all right, I gotta nail that last moment. I gotta nail that last moment. And I felt it in that. I felt like I did nail it, you know? So it was, like, really thrilling. It was really exciting. And right around that time, I'd sort of really come out of my shell and. Cause you're living with people. There are kids all around you. I was in the dorm. It's sort of unavoidable. And people were genuinely, really interested in me. Cause they're like, you're from Pakistan. What's that? Like, people were, like, genuinely curious. And I'm so grateful I went to a place like Iowa. Cause if I'd gone to, like, New York, nobody would have given a shit about a Pakistani kid. But in Iowa, they were like, what is that? Like, do you have refriger? You know, that kind of stuff. We did. We did have refrigerators. We didn't have microwaves. Now I'm sure we do. We did not have a microwave anyway. And so I sort of started making a big group of friends, and I sort of started realizing that I was funny. Because people would be like. People would tell me I was funny. I remember once I was sitting with a friend of mine outside my room, and we were just chilling out, and I was just, like, being funny to her and making her laugh so much that she couldn't speak.

[Nava Kavilan]

Oh, that's nice.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And I was like, oh, this is a great feeling. I remember specifically just, like, riffing and her laughing like that. And I'd also really, really, really fall in love with standup. Like, from Fresh. You know, in college, I'd never really watched stand up. I didn't grow up with standup. But over breaks, I would go to my uncle's house in Georgia and I would, like, be up all night just watching HBO comedy. They had this series called One Night Stand where comedians would do half hours. You know, know, Gotten obsessed with Conan o' Brien and Letterman. And I was just watching this stuff and I was just devouring standup, and I just truly fell in love with it. And my junior year. But I'd never done anything, but I just loved it so much. And then my junior year, we had a little coffee shop on campus called Bob's Underground, like, tiny coffee shop. And this one kid who was older than me set up like, a standup show. And it was just like college kids going up and doing standup for the first time. So I went and walked. And I remember being so jealous of them, and I was like, okay, I have to try this. Like, I was so scared to get up on stage. But the only thing scarier was not doing it. Like, I truly feel like I had no choice but to do it. So I was like, okay, I'll give myself six months if I could come up with something. I like, I'm gonna sign up for this next year, and I'm gonna go do it. So I wrote. I wrote for six months. I wrote a bunch of jokes. And I have a friend of mine, Fred, who's still friends with. With me. He lives in Minneapolis. He was like, hey, do you want to, like, bounce our jokes off of each other? And I remember me being in his room reading my jokes to him, and he's being. He was like, hey, this is actually really funny. Like, he was kind of like, what the fuck is going on? Like, why? Why? Why? Why are you good at this? And I went up on stage, and to this day, again, you know, it's all my friends in the audience. It's just college kids to this day. One of the best sets I've ever had in my life. I did, like, a half hour, which is crazy. You don't general. You don't do a half hour until you're, like, five years into it. You don't get the opportunity. You're doing open mics, four minutes. I remember getting off stage and being like, I could do Letterman next week. And then I didn't do letterman for another 10 years, you know, But I did that, and it was great. And I remember just, like, walking around, people being like, hey, you're that guy that did stand up. You were so good, and you've never done it before. It was just this thing. And then six months later, my senior year, last semester, senior year, I wrote another half hour. I did it again, and it was so fun. And I was like, oh, this feels like the first thing that I could be good at that I also enjoy. And I was like, I'm gonna. I knew a lot of comedians came from Chicago, so I was like, I'm gonna move to Chicago. I'm gonna have a day job. Cause I needed A day job for a visa. I was like, and I'm gonna really see if I can, like, do standup in front of a real crowd. So I moved to Chicago with some college friends. I lived with them. And I remember looking through. We had this. It's gone now. I think this was called the Chicago Reader. And you just go through the thing, and it tells you where the open mics are, and just me going up, signing up, and getting on stage. And I was really lucky. I didn't really bomb until I didn't have my first, like, bad set until I was four or five months into it, which is pretty rare now I'm old enough that I can admit. And I wouldn't have been able to admit. This is gonna sound arrogant. It was just right from the beginning, standup just made sense to me. Like, from the beginning, I just understood how to write a joke, how to perform a joke, how to be funny in front of a crowd. I mean, I was terrible, but, you know, I was around other people who were terrible, and I just knew immediately. I was like, oh, this is something I can do. There are people I know who've been doing standup for 20 years, who've never done well, and I'm like, you are. It is so impressive that you're still doing this. Like, if I. If I had a bad set in the first month, I would have never done it again. So I'm lucky in that I didn't have that.

[Nava Kavilan]

Did you ever bomb on stage? We love a good bomb story, but.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, yeah, I remember the first time I bombed on stage. So I've been doing it a few months, and I was sort of like the new guy in Chicago that everybody was. You know, it's a very low ceiling in Chicago, particularly when it comes to standup. With improv, you have Second City, and there's a whole system there. We were definitely like the orphans of the Chicago comedy scene. We were doing shows and front of, like, tiny crowds. You know, like, people wanted to watch the Bears, and they'd be like, all right. And now comedy. And they hated us. I would have hated us. Like, you just like. I remember once we were at this. I booked a show. I went, and it was like a nice restaurant, like, with dates. And then suddenly there's like, and now we're gonna do standup. And I felt so bad for them. I was like, I know you don't want this. I don't want to see this. My first bomb. So I was like, three or four months in, and I was doing really well. And there was one comedy club in town called Zany's, which is still there. Small club, maybe 200 people. But they had, like national headliners come through. You know, there wouldn't be, like big name people, but there would be people that I'd seen on, you know, doing a set on Conan or the Tonight show or whatever. And they started having me come up and do, like, guest sets. So usually a standup comedy club, it's. There's a host who does 15, a feature who does 25, and then a headliner who does 45. So they started having me do guest sets, which you just go up and do seven minutes. They don't pay you, but it's like fun exposure. So I started doing that and it was going pretty well. And I remember one time I went up and for whatever reason, it just wasn't working. And how standup works is the basic structure. Now it's different, but the basic structure is you start with your second best joke, you end with your best joke. And in the middle is all the stuff that's not as strong. So you start strong, you end even stronger. So I got up and I was always very nervous going up. I got up. I did my first, first joke. It got nothing. So then I moved up my final joke, which is my best joke, up to the beginning. It got nothing. So now I've got six minutes left. And it's all my beat material. All the good shit is gone. All that's left of the beds. And I remember being up there and every line feeling like a physical punch in my gut. Like it felt like physical pain. And I remember watching the faces of the people, people. And they weren't even angry at me. They were just felt pity for me. They felt sad that they were like, oh, he thought he could do this. Why did he think he could do this? That was the. I remember the face of this one woman looking up at me and just felt so sorry for me. I'd rather that they hated me, you know, didn't even hate me. So that was the first time I, like, I remember just what it feels like to really, truly bomb. But I'd had enough good sets behind me that I was like, okay, I gotta get back up and do it. So that is a very, very memorable blah. Another very memorable bomb. If you guys like hearing these stories, this is years and years later now. I've moved to New York. I'm doing well in New York. I've maybe done some tv. I've written for a TV show. I'M doing well.

[Nava Kavilan]

I.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And there's a. Have you guys been to Bonnaroo, the comedy festival?

[Sophie Ansari]

No.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Do you know what it is?

[Nava Kavilan]

No.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So Bonnaroo is this huge comedy festival that happens in the middle of nowhere. I gotta look up.

[Penn Badgley]

I thought Bonnaroo was. Was a music festival.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It is a music festival, but they started having comedy. Yeah, it's a big music festival. Like. Like when I was there, you know, it was. Yeah, it's in Tennessee. When I was there, like, Metallica was playing, and I got booked to do it, and it was a big deal because they have like four or five comedians, and I was like, sort of the cool new guy doing comedy in New York. When I got to New York, because I had six years of Chicago under my belt, I was able to hit the ground running, and I was able to get a lot of stuff very quickly in New York. The fact that I waited so long to move actually worked in my favor because I had a bunch of material. I felt confident on stage. Anyway, I got booked to do the show, and the lineup was. I was so excited. The lineup was me, Amy Schumer, and we were both the same level. Then. Todd Barry, who's really funny, who I'm a huge fan of. I used to listen to his, like, on my Discman. I would listen to his album on the way to work on the Bus and Triumph the insult comic dog, Robert Tackle. So this was the show, and I was like, I cannot fucking believe I'm so here. You know?

[Penn Badgley]

And you were a huge Conan fan growing up, too. So that was.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I mean, I still. Whenever. And now I'm. I'm friends with Conan. Whenever I see him, I have to turn off that part of my brain that's like, oh, my God, it's Conan o'. Brien. I only have that with two people, and that's Conan o' Brien and David Duchovny. When I see them, I kind of have to go, like, pretend you're not talking to Fox.

[Penn Badgley]

That's interesting. I might feel the same way if I met David Duchovny. I mean, we have Conan on, and the entire interview, it was just like, how are we interviewing Conan o'?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Brien?

[Penn Badgley]

This is very difficult.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Conan is lovely, and I've seen a lot of my standup heroes kind of curdle and become people I am disappointed in. Conan's the opposite. Conan is the platonic ideal of how to be a straight white male comedian.

[Sophie Ansari]

100%.

[Penn Badgley]

That's very well put. I totally agree. He was so gracious with us. By the way, he didn't need to be like. Like, you know, it was such a lovely experience. He's like. He's. He's kind. You're right. He's the platonic ideal. He's. He's kind of perfect.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, he's. He's absolutely wonderful. So I remember Emily and I go into the trailer in the back behind the stage, and we open the door, and the Triumph puppet is just laying there on the couch. And Emily's like, weird. Yeah. We've never seen him without a hand in him, you know, We've never seen him. We were like, oh, my God, I can't believe. Meet Robert Smigel. He's so kind. He's so lovely. By the way, Robert Smigel is a great guy. I saw him recently. I got to induct Conan when he won the Mark Twain Award. I was one of the people who got to, like, scream.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, right, right, right. Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You hung out with Robert Smigel again. I love that guy. Anyway, he comes in and introduces himself to me, and I'm friends with Amy, but I meet Todd Barry. It's really exciting. And the show is. It's Triumph hosting. Triumph goes up first, does it? A bunch of bits. It's me, Amy, then Todd. So I'm up first, and it's a big tent, and this festival is super fucking hot. This is the only tent on the entire grounds, you know? And these people have been doing mushrooms for three days. They're dehydrated. They come into the tent sometimes, so they can just like, take a nap, you know? So it's not a good environment for standup any. Nobody's gonna. So I get up on stage, these people are there, and it is going particularly poorly for me. Triumph went up, did well. I go up, and it is not going well for me. It is not going well for me. And they start booing me. This crowd starts booing me, and I sort of kind of turn on them. I get really angry, and I start yelling at them. I get really angry. I start yelling at them, and I kind of win them over. And they turn around, and now they're, like, laughing in the past. And I'm so angry at them. I'm like, no, have the courage of your conviction. I want you to continue to boo me. And I made them boo me for the rest of the set. And when I got off stage, I remember my friend Nick Thune was there. He was a very funny comedian, and he was like, what the fuck was that, man? I made them boo Me. And then I got off stage, and Robert Smigel came up to me, and he was like, next show, you're gonna be closing. And I did. And to this day, if I. You know, if I do a talk show or something and a clip goes up on YouTube, every third or fourth clip, there'll be a comment that's like, I saw him have the worst that I've ever seen anybody have at Bonnaroo in 2009. And when I run into. When I ran into. I didn't see Smiggle for many, many years. And when I ran into him, I was like, hey, do you remember? He's like, yeah, of course I remember. It's the worst I've ever seen anybody ever do.

[Sophie Ansari]

So many. I. I feel like people. I've seen clips recently of people. I don't even know if they have any credentials behind them, but saying, like, things like, you know, nobody's actually thinking about you as much as you're thinking about you. But then every so often, you have an experience like that, and you're like, no. People are. They are thinking about that time I bombed.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's so true.

[Penn Badgley]

It's so true.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

My therapist is so wrong. Yeah, people are thinking about me. That's so true. It is. Cause, you know, for these kids, they were like, oh, who's this guy? Why is he here? He shouldn't be here. He's terrible. And then seeing me in other stuff now and being like, oh, wow. Strange.

[Sophie Ansari]

Seeing the trajectory.

[Nava Kavilan]

Let's talk about Night Thoughts, your new special. You had a gap, sort of between. You've done amazing acting projects. Unfortunately, we won't have time to talk about that.

[Penn Badgley]

Nobody knows what you were doing.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Nobody's paying attention.

[Nava Kavilan]

But I'm curious what it was like for you. Like, the first night where you were testing out the new material, how it felt to come back to it after a bit of a break.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So from, like, I would say, 2014 to about 2023, I wasn't really doing standup. I was focusing on acting. I was really loving acting. And it was during the actor and writer strike. I was, like, really frustrated creatively. I'm about to go shoot this movie, and suddenly there's a strike. I can't do anything. And for years, I had this feeling, to be honest, I did not miss doing stand up. I did not miss the feeling of stand up, really what I hated. No, I didn't. Cause I found acting to be really. I find acting to be very exciting and very challenging. Like, I find it still, like, I Have more to learn in stand up too. But I have much more to learn in acting, you know, And I'm very aware of that. Cause with stand up, you're doing it yourself. With acting, you act with someone and you're like, oh, my fucking God, where is all that coming from? How do I do that? What you're doing, how is that? How does that happen? You know? And so. But I didn't miss Stand Up. I felt creatively satisfied. What I missed was the feeling of being good at something that I'm not good at anymore. And I hated that feeling. I hated the feeling of, like. I hated how intimidated I had become by standup at the thought of doing standup. And when I would think. I remember there were a couple years in New York, like I said, when I. When I first moved to New York. For me, creatively, my two years in New York were the most like. Like, just creatively fruitful time for me. I was writing all the time. I'd really figured out my standup voice. I'd figured out how to be on stage. I'd figured out how to really be myself on stage in a certain kind of way. I was writing a lot. The best jokes I've ever written were in those, like, two years. I was just, like, writing all the time. And it was going great. And I remember in that period having the thought I was like, I could go up in front of any room and do what? And as I'd left Stand up, being like, that seems like a different person. I can't imagine being the person who could ever have that thought. And I hated that feeling. So what I did was. And I'd sort of gotten up on stage here and there. I hadn't really done standup, but I'd, like done little bits here and there. And it had never really, like, awakened anything in me. And so I said, okay, I want to see if I could still be good at this, and I want to see if I could still enjoy. So to do that, I have to recreate the conditions of when I was really doing it all the time. So I set up seven shows for myself over two weeks during the strikes. And I was like, I'm gonna do all of these shows. And at the end of the two weeks, I'm gonna decide if this is something I wanna do again. And then that final show felt a little bit like old times. And that's when I was like, okay, I'll go back. And the material developed very, very. In the grand scheme of things, it. It happened fairly quickly. Because I hadn't. You know, I just had stuff I knew I wanted to talk about. So in the grand scheme of things, I got an hour fairly quickly, but it still took months and months and months. You know, I remember the first joke that I wrote when I came back where I was like, oh, okay, now I think I could do it, because I think this joke is actually pretty funny. I was kind of telling stories. There was a lot of smoke and mirrors in the. The beginning. What was interesting was my first two weeks back on stage, I was doing. I was doing really well because people hadn't seen me on stage in a while. I was like a surprise guest. People were. People were excited to see me, and I was so nervous on stage that I ended up being very present. So there was something like, very. Like. It just felt a. It felt like I was just really present when I was there. As I got more comfortable on stage stage, I started doing less well. And it was kind of surprising. The first two weeks I did well, and then the next two weeks I wasn't doing as well, and I was trying to diagnose it, and I figured out, oh, what's happening is I'm defaulting to how I was on stage 10 years ago, because that's the muscle memory of it. But I'm a different person now, and it's feeling disingenuous, and the audience can tell that I'm being something on stage, that I. I'm not as a person anymore. And so once I figured that out, I was like, okay, I know I want to be good at this, and I want to figure out how I. I don't know what I am on stage now. And so I decided to go up on stage for the next two weeks and not try and do well, not be beholden to doing well, and just lean back and just see what comes out. Just see how standup comes out, you know? And when I did that, when I went out and was like, all right, I just want to be super comfortable and see what happens, that's when I sort of started taking steps towards figuring out who I am on stage. And I would say that's when I really started doing it, doing it again. And that was really exciting to be like, okay, this is who I am as a person. This is how that comes out on stage now. Now, what is the material that goes along along with who I am as a stage and what I want to say as a comedian and an artist right now? And it was interesting, you know, because I talk about this in the Special where I look different than I used to. And so Emily was the one who told me, she was like, you can't be on stage the way you were back then because people's experience of you is very different now. You look different on stage, so the way you are on stage has to be different. So all that stuff took a lot of experiments.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, it makes me, you know, I've. I've always wondered about this, but listening to you speak about it makes me, like, I don't know exactly how to ask the question because, like, comedy is just so not my world. But I. But as you're, you know, so much of comedy is writing, and we always hear comedians, specifically stand up comedians, speak about writing. I think stand up comedians in Hollywood have this interesting kind. They garner a very unique sort of respect because you guys are sort of like directors and editors, actors and producers all in one. At least when you, you know, that's what your set is. You're like, you're directing it and you're editing it because you're. Because that's your delivery. And so what you just described to me makes me think of, like, how much is a. Well, just what role a person, your stage presence, your Persona plays in the writing. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's kind of a. I don't know exactly how to separate them, but I feel like they are. They're. They're distinct. And I just wonder how broadly how comedians approach it. But I guess it sounds like for you, you had to. Did it mean. Do you feel like it made your approach to writing purer because you weren't relying on this sort of previous rhythm or method of delivery?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, there's a lot there. That's a very insightful question. I think point, perspective, perspective and point of view is by far the most important thing for a comedian. That is truly all that matters. I just did this Netflix show where I sort of. It's like a reality show with comedians where I went and watched a bunch of comedians and sort of worked with them a little bit. And all I care about. I don't care how funny you are. I don't care how well you do with the crowd. All that matters is are you on stage doing something in a way that nobody else can do? You know, like what? Every human being is completely different. How is that relating to what you're doing on stage? How are you doing something on stage that only you can do? And for me, I remember very specifically when I was four or five years into standup, my first Few years in standup, I had a very mannered Persona where I wouldn't take the microphone out of the stand. I would play up my nervousness. I was kind of doing a whole thing because I was very nervous. And it was easy for me to, like, fall into that. And that kind of, like, nervous timing was really working for me. But I remember five years into it, I'd seen, like, an episode of Star Trek that I really loved. And I was like, oh, too bad I can't talk about it on stage. Cause my Persona doesn't allow for it. And I was like, wait, that's a huge red flag with standup. It's so pure. As you said, I should be able to talk about anything I want. So then it became a very intentional project for me just to blur the line between me off stage and me on stage, you know? And when I came back to do stand up, that was really my intention. I was like, I want to be 100% myself on stage. Of course, I'm not giving all of myself to the audience. There are parts of me that are just for me and my family and my wife and my friends, you know? But to be 100% completely authentic and true to myself on stage was. Was the goal. Because I was like, I'm coming back to do standup. It's really hard. I like being at home with my wife at night. I'm taking time away from my relationship, so it's gotta be worth it. There's gonna be something worth saying to be doing this again. To be traveling all over the country again, doing this, doing this, this again. And so for me, it used to be when I would write stand up, I'd think of something funny and say it. And then this time I was like, no, what are the things I want to talk about? And how do I make them funny? So I have a long bit about my cat being sick and medicating her. And I was like, this, to me, is a very unfunny thing. It's heartbreaking to me that my cat is sick. And it's so important to me that if I don't talk about it on stage, I'm not being true to myself. So much of my days is spent worrying about my little cat.

[Penn Badgley]

So I was like, okay, that's really sweet. Especially because we've seen it. And so for you, the way that. I'm sorry, I just laughed when you said that it's not funny. That it's heartbreaking for you because it was funny.

[Nava Kavilan]

Yes.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, well. Yeah, well, I'M just remembering the good Christian girl. And that's.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, you guys. And I'll say this because you'll know it when you watch the final special. She passed away last month.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm sorry.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It was the saddest I've ever been in my life. And then last week we got a new kitten, so. But we put a little thing at the end of the special and we say, in loving memory of Bagel, our sweet Christian girl.

[Penn Badgley]

Anyway, it's like, it's really gonna hit people when they see it, when they see at the end. Cause we just saw it with. Without that, without the little.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I know. We really were like, we really talked about it, but I was like, I owe it to her. She's in the marketing materials too. So, like in the billboards and posters, it's me and her together. And we were like, should we take her out? And I was like, no, we shouldn't. This is what it is, you know, like, if I want to be truly authentic, this is part of it. This is what life is. And I wanted to like really communicate, try and communicate some trouble truth about existence as I see it, right? So I was like, okay, I have to figure out how to make this funny. So that was a bit that truly starts from zero and becomes a whole 10 minute thing that comes from me wanting to talk about this thing. It's not like, oh, that was funny. I should make that into a bit. It was really like, as opposed to the pool story, which was the opposite. Something funny happened and I made it into a standup break. Right, right, right, right, right. And then the last 50 where I sort of talk about my body changing and people's reaction to it and my relationship with my own emotions and therapy and all this stuff again was. This is the stuff I've been really thinking about for the last five years. I need to be able to talk about this on stage, otherwise I'm doing a disservice to myself. I don't know if I'm gonna keep doing standup after this. So I need to figure out how to say all this stuff in a way, way that is funny and interesting to the audience. And so those two bits, specifically the cat bed and the last 15 minutes of my set talking about all this stuff, my emotions and therapy and all this really came from me trying to be authentic on stage and communicate something that previously before the break, I would not have been able to communicate on stage.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, without. I'm realizing that people, people haven't seen it. So I don't Want to. Comedy is one of these things where you really. I don't want to, like, you know, ruin a punchline here, but I. But I do want to just say that you really do that. I mean, like, I really enjoyed. I really, really enjoyed it. And especially as you get to the, you know, kind of. You've named it Night Thoughts. And so once you sort of hit that theme in the show, which I think maybe about 20 minutes in, it's like an hour long set you. Not that you hit your stride, but it's like. I think what I realized as it progresses is that you are talking about more and more meaningful things. And I mean, you know, you talk about immigration in a way that's both funny but also, like, touching. And you speak about anxiety in a way that is poignant and, of course, funny. But then you. You mentioned things about anger that I think are, like, you know, I think the sign of, dare I say, genius or something. Like, it is when you. Anybody who can take something that's kind of like, it's complex and just make it simple for a moment, you know, and that is why, of course, comedy is so gratifying to watch. And you do something when you're describing in kind of story form. Again, I don't want to give away, like, details, but you describe anger in a way that I. And as a person who works with anger and therapy and playing a raging sociopath, for my entire 30s, I've thought about anger. And you actually did something there where I was like, yeah, he just kind of rearranged all the things I just knew and touched on it in, like, a new. It was really lovely, especially as a man, to. Just to hear something.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thank you.

[Penn Badgley]

I don't know. I really liked that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Thank you. Yeah. You know, I talked to Emily about that a bunch. Where she was. Was like, when you were, like. When I was, like, sort of a really nerdy, scrawny guy, I look like a certain kind of man, and now I look like a certain kind of man that, you know, obviously presents very differently. But Emily was like, you need to talk about this stuff because it's gonna feel different coming from you, because in many ways, you look like the kind of guy that these people think is a certain kind of way.

[Penn Badgley]

That's so true. Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And so she was like, I think it'll mean a lot coming from you talking about vulnerability and emotionality and the importance of sitting in yourself and being in touch with yourself and the importance of crying and all this stuff. She's like, it's just gonna. It's just gonna hit differently. And I think it's important that you do it. It's so interesting that you say that. You're. Exactly. That's how I saw it. Minute 20 is when I hit the Night Thoughts thing. And that is, to me, when I do the set. I've done this set now so many times in preparation for the special, that's when I feel like I start going downhill in a good way up to then. I feel like I'm setting the stage to get to that bit. And when I get to that bit, I'm like, all right, now.

[Penn Badgley]

It so works.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's all momentum now. I all know. And so, you know, the structuring of it. There is some, like, logic to it, emotional logic to it. I think where I start the set, the first few bits are just, like, bitty bits about encores and smoking pot and all this stuff. And then there's a fairly hard pivot to me talking about my cat being sick. And that is like, me saying, this is going to be a little bit different from other standup, you see, in the sense that it is going to be a little bit more volatile, memorable. But really, I think I'm resetting expectations there for what this set's gonna be. I'm kind of training the audience to go like, this is gonna be. It's not all completely funny. I mean, hopefully it is, but it's also something a little bit, like, softer than that. And doing that bit sometimes was. For me, emotionally, doing the whole cat thing was difficult. Fairly often, even though it's. It's funny, and I want it to be funny. I could feel her presence whenever I. I did that. In fact, I've only done one hour since she passed, and I wasn't able to do that material. I was like, you know. Yeah. So I. I was like, it just doesn't feel.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I'm lying. I can't do it.

[Penn Badgley]

Did you. Did. Did you know that before you went up, or did you try.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, I knew that before I went up, I was like, I'm not gonna be able to do this material. And so I kind of. It's. You know. And I was contractually obligated to do an hour, so I. At the end of my set, it's like, 10 minutes shorter. And I was like, hey, just so you know, I tell a long story about my cat being sick, but she died, so do you have any questions? And so then it just turned into, like, a Q and A, which ended up being really Fun. Cause weirdly, people started talking about their cats. Aw. An interesting thing happens in that set, which I have never felt doing standup is. When I start talking about my cat, the audience changes. Like, you could feel. So many people have had the experience of losing a pet or, you know, it's such a specific kind of love. I don't have children, obviously. I know, Pen. You do? I don't know if you guys have children.

[Nava Kavilan]

I have a dog who's my child.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, right. So it is a. It is a new kind of love, isn't it? And, Pen, what you feel?

[Penn Badgley]

I have so many kids, I could get rid of one. To be honest, I have. No, I'm not kidding. I have four. And I'm just like.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Some are redundant. It's an interesting thing happens where I feel the audience opens up when I start talking about her because they can relate to it so, like, deeply. And then sometimes I hear people.

[Penn Badgley]

I have to.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You saying that makes me. It validates a thought I had while I was watching this. I don't think in a comedy set I've ever heard an audience go, aww.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And they do it once. They do it once. And I was like, whoa.

[Nava Kavilan]

Wow.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's. Yeah, it's an interesting thing, and it's not something that I had anticipated, but it really changes how the people. How people start receiving the show. And then after that, I think they're like, okay, now you're in a place where I can talk about anxiety, where I could talk about emotions and all this stuff. You know, after that, I feel like all the tough part, all the heavy lifting is done after the cat bed, and then I can. Then I feel like they're really open and ready to receive this other stuff. And again, I don't mean to say, like, it really is an hour of jokes. It's an hour of. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to do an hour of standup, and I wanted it to be funny the whole time. I'm not, like, saying, like, oh, I wrote this thing to change the world, whatever. But it just was the only way I could figure out how to do stand up and still have it. Be exciting to me.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's really sweet to hear you bring up Emily so often in these conversations about your work, her input. I don't know. It's just very. It's very sweet to imagine. Imagine the two of you collaborating and creating that way. But I had a question about the title of your specialist. So as we've said, it's night Thoughts. And in the special you go through a list on your phone of these like anxiety fueled thoughts that come to you before bed and they're so varied, so funny. I'm not going to give any of them away, but I was curious if you had any that didn't show up in the, the special but that you could tell us now.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

One night I couldn't sleep and I was like, rats can climb walls. They're so good. How could they do that? Like no other animal that size climbs walls. Like, like bugs climb walls. And that's kind of it. It's weird that they could do that.

[Sophie Ansari]

Rats are the worst.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's scary to think about that they can climb walls.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

They're just like, they could go anywhere. That's good.

[Sophie Ansari]

I like that.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, it's a hard pivot. But our, our last question that we ask everybody is to go back. If you could go back to 12 year old Kumel, what would you say or do, if anything?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I mean, I would say you're. You're perfect just the way you are.

[Nava Kavilan]

Sweet.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Because I, I truly, really didn't like myself at that age. I really, really, really didn't. And I wished I was someone else. And it was something that occupied so much of my, so much of my brain, you know, And I'm sure a lot of people have this exact thing, but it took me so long to, to learn to like myself. That, and also like, like, hey, you're going to be friends with Conan o' Brien one day.

[Sophie Ansari]

Little preview. Thanks.

[Nava Kavilan]

So lovely. Thanks for your generosity spending so much time with us. What a pleasure.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thanks for talking to me. This was so wonderful. I knew I was like, all right, get ready for some heavy shit. But I really, really, like, I was like, I'm not going to do therapy today because I think I'll have kind of done it already. So thank you for talking to me. Me that I. That was wonderful.

[Sophie Ansari]

You can watch Kamil Nanjani's special on Hulu called night thoughts out December 19th. You can also follow him online at Kamiln Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavilan and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet. Navigation the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content. Like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium On Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work that we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads With Lemonada Premium, are you looking for.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin Podcast podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Kraft.

[Nava Kavilan]

That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and.

[Nava Kavilan]

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.