Penn Badgley (2:04)

I'm Mandy Patinkin.

Lizzy Kaplan (2:05)

And I'm Kathryn Grody.

Penn Badgley (2:06)

And we have a new podcast. It's called don't listen to us. Many of you have asked for our advice. Tell me, what is wrong with you people?

Lizzy Kaplan (2:16)

Don't listen to us.

Penn Badgley (2:17)

Our take it or leave it advice.

Lizzy Kaplan (2:18)

Show is out every Wednesday, premiering October 15th. A Lemonada Media original.

Penn Badgley (2:29)

So you, 12 years old, living in LA, just give us a snapshot. Like, what. What was that like? What was your. What was your daily life like? What was your crew like?

Lizzy Kaplan (2:38)

I had a wonderful childhood. I feel like the rare times I do come on a podcast, it tends to go back to this, like, real bummer. But hey, we start at 12 years old, so at 12 years old, I. I was living a very wonderful, shockingly suburban, idyllic life in Los Angeles. We had a lot more freedom as kids then. And then I had. I have a brother and a sister. There are three of us. I was the youngest. We lived in the Miracle Mile, which was by the La Brea Tar Pits. Lived on a great block. And then my mother got sick when I was 12 and died when I was 13, imploding all of that. But I did have 12 and a half good years.

Penn Badgley (3:24)

Yeah. So let's start a little bit earlier.

Lizzy Kaplan (3:26)

Then maybe, just so we can.

Penn Badgley (3:29)

You know, this is a podcast, right?

Podcast Advertiser/Host (3:30)

You know.

Penn Badgley (3:31)

Oh, it's Marshall.

Lizzy Kaplan (3:32)

It's supposed to start happening.

Penn Badgley (3:33)

Here's how it works. We have advertisers and like, we need, we need the numbers to go up.

Lizzy Kaplan (3:37)

Right, Got it, got it, got it. Actually, no, nothing bad happened when I was 12. It was all great, just smooth sailing until puberty. Is that what it's supposed to.

Penn Badgley (3:46)

Yeah, just tell us, give us an awkward story.

Lizzy Kaplan (3:50)

Let's go in this pimple coming night.

Penn Badgley (3:54)

Just so you know, we're not shy of stories around loss and grief here. We do love it. We kind of relish it. For those who are willing, Nava shares a lot herself. So, you know. Yeah, that is.

Lizzy Kaplan (4:10)

Buckle up.

Penn Badgley (4:11)

Yeah, so just go there. Go there all.

Lizzy Kaplan (4:14)

Yeah, okay. No problem. I live there.

Penn Badgley (4:17)

I guess an interesting question would be those who we are at 12 seems to be so impactful. Regardless of what's happening. Sometimes you almost feel already like the person you are today. That can be the case. I'm curious then how. Not yet knowing the final blow of such a loss, but having this Runway, this time leading up to it at such a pivotal time in your life. I guess I'm curious how you felt going through that. You know, how that year of. I don't know what, you know, if it's waiting or if it's. Did you know the loss was going to come so soon?

Lizzy Kaplan (5:07)

No, no. In fact, we thought it was going to go the other direction. I think back to that time and like I see 12, 13 year old kids now and am astounded at just how young they look. Just like babies and just completely incapable of like handling really anything. And I was a very young 12 because I had a pretty sheltered upbringing and I like developed late. I was just like a scrawny little kid and I felt like probably positioned, terribly positioned to have to weather anything like this, but I don't know who like is primed for it, honestly. I don't know like, who gets away.

Nava Kavlan (5:54)

With that, you know, I can't imagine your situation. Cause my mom passed away suddenly. It was like a pulmonary embolism. So we weren't prepared at all. But right when I turned 30 and it was so like life altering and devastating that to think of like someone going through that at puberty just like knocks me out. Like, I can't. It just changed my life so much that I can't imagine what it was for you at that age.

Lizzy Kaplan (6:18)

I think that we all sort of try to make sense of things as human beings and so like you qualify things as like, better or worse. And to me, the idea of like a sudden, out of nowhere, out of left field death of a parent is like unimaginably terrifying and tragic. And you really have like, you know, no tools whatsoever. I don't think like anybody goes into it like fully prepared, except maybe if you have had a parent that's been like very sick for many, many years. But oh, the sudden like the car crash version of it is fucking awful. But yeah, it's. I think so because it was just a year and it was. I was in eighth grade and it was like the beginning of the, like, I didn't think I knew anybody who even had a sick parent. And so it was like the beginning of becoming different from everybody I knew. And that was the starkest thing. Honestly, like all of a sudden I was different than. And these are still people who I'm very, very close friends with today. But it was, it was very odd to all of a sudden be like the other and then just, you know, like privy to a version of or an intensity of loneliness that I think that people aren't supposed to have at that age.

Penn Badgley (7:44)

Yeah, it's interesting hearing about it impacting in some way even your friend group. I mean, of course it would like, you know, if you're impacted, your friend group is impacted. And it sounds like you had a pretty intact group there. And I think what, you know, the way that I find most interesting, we can't always go there depending on how people want to open up. But I find, you know, your relationship to your parents specifically at this age is kind of the biggest portal to understanding things. Right. And so you certainly had this relationship completely altered, you know, and like, just couldn't be more altered. It feels like it's taken away, I guess. I'm curious about some of the. Yeah, just the impact it had on your other relationships like that with your dad, your siblings and those friends.

Lizzy Kaplan (8:34)

It's really like they really are still. One of my 8 year old friends, since we were 8, is staying with me right now in New York. I just got a text from like the group of people that I'm gonna tell this little tale about. I remember the day after she died, maybe two days after it was like the Shiva week. Um, my three best girlfriends came over and we were all, you know, they all gave me a hug and somebody like said something strange and they all kind of laughed and like clearly a very uncomfortable laugh. And I remember that moment so clearly like, oh fuck, this is. Oh shit. Like I am so another. Because like that's the thing that sort of breaks my heart the most when I think about like little me, is that the people that I had to lean on, who were. Did the best they could and are true friends, we were fucking 12 and 13. They didn't really have the tools to deal with the level of discomfort, which really, I do think a lot of, a lot of it was like trying to navigate and especially at that age for me, trying to navigate like other people's discomfort around my tragedy. So I think that honestly had a huge impact on my relationships with other people because I wanted everybody else to feel like, oh no, it's okay. You asked about my mom and then you remembered that she died and now you feel uncomfortable and I'm gonna like do a little song and dance to make you feel okay. It took me many years to stop doing that and I also was like a super like. I went from again being this pretty sheltered kid to like overnight having to be a very scrappy kid. And I was, and I'm very grateful for the lessons that I learned there. Of course you then have to, you know, like shed all that to become like a grown up, all your like defense mechanism, protective things that you do. But it really, I was, I did, I got through it. I convinced everybody that I was totally fine even when I wasn't. And that is still, still surprising to me that anybody believed it. But you know, we are.

Nava Kavlan (10:39)

Lizzy, I'm just wondering if you're open, if you could share a favorite memory with your mom before she got sick.

Lizzy Kaplan (10:46)

Oh man. So many. Actually, I've been thinking about her a lot because she took every, every one of us, the siblings, like on a trip just with her. And she took me to New York when I was nine and I had never been here. And I have many memories from that. And you know, it's hard. It's, it's, it's a good question because I. There's so Few men. Like, I've been alive so much longer without her than with her. But, yeah, I mean, I just. I honestly just look back now that I'm a parent, I think it all becomes like. It rushes to the forefront. And she was just a really fucking good mom. Like, I didn't have. I was very lucky to have her as a mom. And I try to remember whatever lessons I can from that, which, you know, I can't remember too much, but. And try to just like, honestly emulate it as closely as possible.

Penn Badgley (11:46)

You said your child is a boy, right? You have a son?

Lizzy Kaplan (11:49)

Yeah, yeah.

Penn Badgley (11:51)

I'm curious if. Because I know from. I have all boys, which is crazy.

Lizzy Kaplan (11:55)

But you have four boys.

Penn Badgley (11:57)

Yeah, yeah.

Sophie Ansari (12:00)

Two more.

Nava Kavlan (12:00)

You could start a basketball team.

Penn Badgley (12:03)

Yeah.

Lizzy Kaplan (12:03)

I mean, that is wild. That sounds.

Penn Badgley (12:07)

And I really do. Yeah. It's such an impactful thing now that, like, I find it. It's relevant no matter what's happening, at least to me, because I'm like, holy shit, I have four boys. Because we did just have twins. So the four is. Is new to me. But what I see with. What I see with the older ones at least is like, there's moments where maybe this is because they're boys, maybe not. And that's what I'm asking you. Like, I have seen these threshold moments, 2, 3, 4, 5 years old, where I'm like, I can kind of see myself at that age. And then I realize what I'm getting to do is partly reparent that child who missed certain things or whatever it is. And that can be so incredibly poignant and like, like, like, like kind of just psychedelic and mystical and, you know, and. And because it has to do then with my parents, I would imagine that parenting and becoming a mother has just kind of, as you were indicating, like, blown open. Maybe some of your. Maybe that's an extreme way to put it, but it's just. Maybe it's gently massaging open just certain insights and understandings about like, you know, maybe who your mom was, who you were then, you know, And I don't know if it's lessened a little because, you know, you're not staring at like a little girl is exactly like you, you know?

Lizzy Kaplan (13:35)

Totally. I do think about that all the time. We're only having. We're going the opposite direction as you, and we're having one. And I never thought I'd only have one. And I did always want to have a daughter at some point, and now I find myself, like, weirdly very grateful that I have a son. And he is not. He's sort of like 50, 50, 50 gender. It feels like he's really sweet and sensitive. He's not like, like a truck and break things kind of boy. Even though he definitely has that side to him. But I think you're right. I have been waiting. I remember when my mom passed away saying to myself, like, just keep your head down till you have your own family. And then you can sort of write this. But I had him late, you know, I didn't like rush into having kids at all. I was 39 when I had him. And it is the single most reparative thing that I've ever done, which is, you know, not the intention, but a huge added surprise benefit. Getting to re. Experience all of that. I mean, it also, unfortunately I have this like. Well, of like real fear of leaving him in the same situation. But I don't know, I think we all. I think once you, if you lose a parent. Sure. And also when you have kids, you just become like so hyper aware of your own mortality and I can really think about like the effect it would have on him. The difference is my husband Tom, if I did drop dead tomorrow. Alfie. Our son is in very good hands. Like he is such an incredible dedicated dad and parent and my dad, who actually passed away in January, which just to keep it real light and fun here, loving it. Yeah, right. I figured this is like what you guys like on this budget. That's great. He was, you know, my parent like loomed so large. I love my dad so dearly, but he was not equipped to all of a sudden be a 50 year old man with three kids who he was never the primary caregiver for. And it was, it was not easy for anybody in our family.

Nava Kavlan (16:00)

Lizzie, I'm gonna take an abrupt left turn.

Penn Badgley (16:05)

I do have one. Because it's about that. It's not necessarily like all death.

Lizzy Kaplan (16:10)

I thought this was the death one. That's why I signed on. Fucking love talking about this.

Penn Badgley (16:15)

No, actually we do too. We do too. No, I mean, but I do talk.

Lizzy Kaplan (16:18)

About it in podcasts a lot.

Penn Badgley (16:20)

We could just. Yeah, and it is kind of the space for it. Cause you sort of have to turn on this very vulnerable thing. So we don't, we don't need. But, but, but, but you did say something very interesting about you at 12. Or I guess it would have been you at 13, which is. Which then it is like the, the Runway of time that we like to look at. You said you, you said something along the lines of like to yourself, just Keep your head down until you have a family and then you can write this. That's. That's actually really. That's kind of an interesting.

Lizzy Kaplan (16:51)

Story.

Penn Badgley (16:51)

Like a self written story for such a young person to give to themselves. I guess, like is maybe could you just. I don't know what the question is quite, because, you know, you just said it, but it's like, what do you think that was? Did you want a family? Did you feel called to that? Was it just like, I don't know how to deal with this. It must be fine once I'm an adult. That magical stage where you know what's happening, you know?

Lizzy Kaplan (17:19)

Yeah, I think it's partly that. I think it was also. I mean, my mom did everything. So every holiday, every family trip, going to Hebrew school, like all of these things pretty much abruptly stopped after she passed away. So I really missed just like the chaos of a full house of people. It got very quiet in my house. My sister was in college and my brother was at home for two years before he also went to college. And it was the beginning of my friends honestly becoming my family because my dad was very much figuring it out in real time and really not having the easiest time. He also would do things like he would have these long term serious girlfriends, some of whom I love, some of whom I didn't care for that much. But I can sort of chop it up into chapters of like who this mother figure was in my life. And for the most part I'd say his hit rate was pretty high when I was still living in the house and there was just so much strange shifting around. So we'd have a girlfriend who had kids and then I would become friends with the kids and there would be like this kind of cool stepbrother, stepsister situation. And then they would break up and all those people would be gone.

Lizzy Kaplan's Husband or Close Associate (18:41)

So.

Lizzy Kaplan (18:42)

And nobody was really like holding my hand through that. So it was just like the initial fear of abandonment. I know where it comes from. And then it just like just added a little bit to it every year. And it fucked me up. It fucked me up. And only when I started therapy in earnest, which I really didn't do, I started like maybe 1920, but I really like did it, did it from maybe 24. Like really just like cancel my schedule. I'm gonna do this now. That it took, it took me a really, really, really long time to actually like sort through all of those feelings and anger and resentments towards these people in my family that like I look now at a 13 year old kid, like probably take care of the 13 year old kid and don't believe her when she says everything's fine. But you know, we all have to sort of sort through the detritus of our upbringings. It's. And I really do believe like we. It's the armor that you create at that age that gets you through. At least for me. Gets got me through like my teens, my 20s, into my 30s and only when I was willing to like dismantle it and like face all of that stuff did I feel like maybe I was ready to have my own family like in reality. And that's how it worked out.

Penn Badgley (20:05)

Well, we'll check in with your husband to see if all this, you know, checks out.

Lizzy Kaplan (20:09)

Yeah, I'll call him in, I'll call him in right now.

Nava Kavlan (20:13)

At that time there's also a young artist that's being like formed. Probably those like artistic pangs or longings are amplified as like a way to access another world. And I'm curious because I had read that you studied piano first or you were like really into piano and then you kind of made the shift into performance.

Sophie Ansari (20:32)

So.

Nava Kavlan (20:32)

So I'm curious if you could tell us about that. Like Lizzie the musician or the pianist who then starts seeking out acting. Tell us a little bit about that journey.

Lizzy Kaplan (20:41)

Yeah, so I played the piano for 10 or 11 years and it was very much one of those like middle class Jew in Los Angeles. I played soccer for all those years. I played the piano. This was just the thing that you did. So it was a lot of like my mom forcing me to do it and practice. I wasn't like, oh, this is me, I need to be a pianist at all. I did get pretty good because I played for so long. So I wanted to go to this high school in Los Angeles called Hamilton that has Performing Arts Academy. It's a big huge public LAUSD school, but it has this really incredible music academy. And so I auditioned with the piano, I got in with the piano. Then I quit playing piano halfway through high school because I, I mean I was never, I never wanted to be a pianist. Everybody was getting like so much better and I was like kind of playing the same piece over and over again. I always think back to because I can't play at all anymore, like for more than two seconds, which is really a bummer. But I was able at the time to like go and play like a 12 page thing from memory to the piano and the spotlight. And now I can't do any of that shit. So I quit piano and I needed to get another performing arts elective. And so I picked acting because again, this was kind of like a fame type school and I wasn't going to be able to fake playing another instrument or being a dancer or a singer or any of that. So I said, all right, I'll do acting. And then very quickly I realized how much I liked it. And I definitely, to answer your question, had that thing like, oh, I'm so fucked up because of this trauma that I've been through. Like, that's why I could be an actor, because I have this darkness to me. And I really did believe that for a long time.

Sophie Ansari (22:31)

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Penn Badgley (24:03)

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Sophie Ansari (25:32)

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Penn Badgley (27:44)

So it's kind of funny. It sounds like you maybe weren't initially super drawn to performing until you discovered acting. And it sounds like even then, maybe it was a slow burn. Is that. Is that accurate?

Lizzy Kaplan (27:57)

I think that I liked it pretty immediately. It was like, in tandem, this acting class at school with this performing arts English class, which just had like, a huge element of performance to it. And it was the combination of those two things. But I mean, I did like it. But I think I liked it because I had some kind of an aptitude for it. Like, I don't know, like, which sort of came first. But I mean, I was always, you know, I was the youngest child, so I was a lot of like, razzle dazzle, like the loud, obnoxious one. But no, I wasn't. I didn't, like, have these dreams of being an actor even in LA at all. And I guess, yeah, I wasn't. I didn't consider myself somebody who, like, just wanted to be on stage performing, like, at all.

Penn Badgley (28:45)

Did you consider when you quit piano, did you consider leaving that school? Like, did you. Did you ever consider be like, no, this whole thing isn't for me? Or was it like, no, no, I'm definitely going to stay. I'll find something else?

Lizzy Kaplan (28:57)

Yeah, I was definitely going to stay for sure.

Penn Badgley (28:59)

Okay, cool.

Nava Kavlan (29:00)

That's good that you had, like, constancy it sounds like you definitely needed that.

Lizzy Kaplan (29:05)

Yeah. And it was like, I. God, I loved that school. It was, it was a wild place to go to high school. And you know, I had friends that went to public school and friends that went to private school. And this was like such a huge fucking crazy ass school. And yeah, to the degree that like, I was such a staunch defender of all public school things and now that I send my own kid to school, I don't send them to public school. And it makes me feel really bad every single day.

Nava Kavlan (29:35)

Okay, wait, before we get into your career, which we, I promise we're going to do, we do have some classic questions. Just like classic tween teen things that we all experience. So can you tell us about your first crush or infatuation, Your first rejection, whether you rejected someone brutally or you were rejected brutally and an embarrassing memory from middle school or high school.

Lizzy Kaplan (29:57)

So my friend Arik, who is staying with me now, who's the godfather to my son, he was my husband from age 8 to 12.

Penn Badgley (30:09)

That's a long time.

Lizzy Kaplan (30:11)

Yeah, it's pretty, you know. First marriage.

Penn Badgley (30:14)

Was he aware of this? Was.

Lizzy Kaplan (30:16)

Yeah, we got married on those. I love that. Yeah, yeah. We didn't kiss though. We never kissed once in all of those years.

Penn Badgley (30:25)

And it was a loveless marriage.

Lizzy Kaplan (30:27)

Yeah, it was, it was a marriage of convenience. There was a boy that everybody loved. His name was Kevin and he was the best at soccer. He looked like Dennis the Menace. Everybody was obsessed with it.

Penn Badgley (30:44)

Wait, I don't think of Dennis the Menace as being hot or even like, isn't he sort of just. I mean, he's.

Lizzy Kaplan (30:53)

Yeah, that's not how I remember him at this time. 1990, whatever. A blonde bowl cut and a bright blue eyed little jock. That's all it took.

Penn Badgley (31:07)

Yeah.

Lizzy Kaplan (31:08)

And I loved him. And then I found out that. But I was married to Auric. And then I feel like Aric and I at this point were in junior high, separate junior highs. And we didn't even talk to each other. But you know, I was loyal to my husband and I found out that Kevin had a little crush on me. And he wrote me a letter, but I couldn't be with him because I was still with Aarik. That was brutal. That was the beginning of a lifetime of. Of interesting dating. Yes. Then I remember in seventh grade meeting this boy, Andy, and he was a kid actor and he did like guest spots on Home Improvement and stuff. And he was my seventh grade boyfriend. But the whole time I was with him, I was obsessed with this like skater boy from eighth grade. It's a lot of that stuck with one into another.

Sophie Ansari (32:00)

So when did that stop?

Lizzy Kaplan (32:02)

Honestly, I would say that probably stopped in my 30s.

Penn Badgley (32:10)

Yeah.

Lizzy Kaplan (32:10)

Fair, fair.

Penn Badgley (32:11)

That's the time. Yeah. That's when you got to like, sort of make it all right. Ish enough, you know, just.

Lizzy Kaplan (32:16)

Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, some practice before this, when.

Penn Badgley (32:20)

You say you were like, you know, this marriage to Arik really going dialing in here. What?

Lizzy Kaplan (32:26)

Do it.

Penn Badgley (32:27)

So at first when I thought, oh, that's funny, that's cute. But now. But then you. But oh like four years. Four years into this childhood relationship, which I've never really heard of. I've never really heard of that at that age. And then so much so that you stayed committed to him when you were in love with Dennis the Menace. Like, I'm really. Was that the beginning of you being like, I have to end it with Auric? And I guess I'm just curious, what did you both think of that? Especially because now you're still friends.

Lizzy Kaplan (32:57)

I know we're very good friends. We've been good friends for our whole lives. I don't remember how it ended. I don't think of Auric as an ex in any way.

Penn Badgley (33:09)

Right. It doesn't sound like that. What were you guys thinking? What was the.

Lizzy Kaplan (33:15)

It was a thing. It was like a recess thing that people would get married. Did anybody last as long as we did? No, not even close. And there was a real mix in our friends. And again, so many of us, like the group is still pretty intact and it was a real mix of guys and girls, which was wonderful and sort of all. I wish for every kid to have that mix of everybody in your. In your friendship group.

Penn Badgley (33:39)

Yeah.

Lizzy Kaplan (33:40)

But all we did to be married was like, we hung out all the time. We lived three doors down from each other. We hung out all the time and we bought each other birthday presents and like Hanukkah presents.

Penn Badgley (33:49)

That was pretty much.

Lizzy Kaplan (33:51)

Yeah, it's.

Penn Badgley (33:52)

It's cute. It's so cute. I've just never really heard of it. Be like, it's. Yeah. So I guess. Nava, did you. Have you heard of this before?

Nava Kavlan (34:00)

I think I've heard of people marrying on the courtyard, but not for like more than a week. I've never heard of a four year.

Penn Badgley (34:07)

Well, you guys had a cute group.

Lizzy Kaplan (34:10)

Yeah, we really did. We were very committed. We were very old fashioned.

Penn Badgley (34:14)

All right, so how about. How about an embarrassing story? I mean, apart from the ones you've.

Lizzy Kaplan (34:17)

Told, you know, I mean, the worst One. I was older than high school, but am I not allowed to talk about anything old?

Nava Kavlan (34:25)

No, you can. You can.

Lizzy Kaplan's Husband or Close Associate (34:26)

Yeah.

Nava Kavlan (34:27)

Yeah. Tell us.

Penn Badgley (34:27)

Did we draw a hard line?

Nava Kavlan (34:28)

No.

Lizzy Kaplan (34:29)

And was, like, one of the most embarrassing things that's ever happened to me around a date was. I mean, I was young. I was. I was probably, like, 18 or 19. And this guy I really liked who was, like, definitely keeping me at arm's length, and I was so into him, he came over, and he was going to take me out to dinner for my birthday. Mixed messages, one might say, because I don't think he was at all interested in being my boyfriend. And I was talking to him, and he came over. I was, like, wearing a dress, and we're, like, talking in my house before we go out to dinner, and he sort of gestured to me like, your. Your dress. And I looked down, and, like, a full boob. No, no. Was just out. Just out of my dress with the boy that I like. I can still feel it in my stomach when I tell the story.

Nava Kavlan (35:31)

That's brutal.

Lizzy Kaplan (35:32)

And guess what? It didn't even work.

Sophie Ansari (35:33)

The old one.

Lizzy Kaplan (35:34)

One titty out. Didn't even work.

Nava Kavlan (35:36)

Didn't seduce it. That's amazing.

Lizzy Kaplan (35:40)

Horrifying.

Nava Kavlan (35:41)

Yeah.

Lizzy Kaplan (35:42)

Yes. But also, in high school, like, I had. I had a really sweet boyfriend in high school when I was in ninth grade. He was in 11th grade, and we went out for two years, and he was, like, my first great love, and we had, like, a really sweet thing going with each other. I wish that for every. Every young person to have, like, such a, like, loving, respectful, like, beautiful first relationship. It was great.

Penn Badgley (36:16)

Yeah, it sounds amazing, which is not.

Lizzy Kaplan (36:18)

At all interesting to talk about, I guess, but boring. I know.

Penn Badgley (36:23)

Let's get back to the old death thing. I mean, because this is.

Lizzy Kaplan (36:26)

I know.

Penn Badgley (36:27)

Pretty tepid.

Lizzy Kaplan (36:30)

And then he died.

Penn Badgley (36:31)

Great. All right, so let's hear about. I mean, it is true that Freaks and Geeks was where you. It sounds like your. Your first major role. It may have been your first role. I'm not exactly. Okay. Okay, great.

Sophie Ansari (36:45)

Awesome.

Penn Badgley (36:45)

Even better.

Sophie Ansari (36:46)

Better. Better for her story.

Lizzy Kaplan (36:48)

That's why I did it.

Penn Badgley (36:49)

What is the arc from. You know, you're going to Hamilton. You're now kind of turned on as a performer. Just how things became, like, yeah, I'm really gonna do this. I'm gonna become professional. You already lived in a town where that's both. It's like you're surrounded by it, but it's also an alien world. I'm kind of interested in that shift. And then how quickly Freaks and Geeks comes along, because that was such huge. I mean, it was, it was. It was, I will say, also in the industry. So I was living in LA and working then too. I was. I'm a little younger than you, but I was like. I remember I was on my first, like, series lead when that had come out, and I remember just. That seemed like just an incredibly special project and group of people.

Lizzy Kaplan (37:41)

That's so fascinating because I haven't heard that perspective before. Most people are like, oh, yeah, you know, it's like this beloved show after the fact, canceled too soon. But it took people a minute to, like, fall in love with it. What show were you on?

Penn Badgley (37:58)

You were here. You wouldn't know it. It was called Do Over. It was on the wb.

Lizzy Kaplan (38:01)

No, I feel like I would know that show.

Sophie Ansari (38:03)

I mean, I.

Penn Badgley (38:04)

So I would have been. I. I would have been just younger. I. I was not. I would have been like four years younger than you. So when you were like, you know, doing what? I was much younger. I was like, you were a baby. Yeah. At that age, the age gap is huge. And anything I was doing was definitely not cool or becoming.

Lizzy Kaplan (38:22)

But do over sounds familiar to me.

Penn Badgley (38:24)

Maybe. Maybe. I mean, yeah.

Lizzy Kaplan (38:27)

Yes. So I had an uncle. Good news. He also passed away.

Penn Badgley (38:33)

Oh, God, I love it. Actually, this uncle you said, this uncle you said, taught you everything you know about how to die graciously. Is that true?

Lizzy Kaplan (38:41)

That is true. Look at you. Yeah. See, I do talk about this shit a lot on podcast. No, but he did. He was a huge influence in my life. And he was a crisis publicist, so he. His clients were like Monica Lewinsky, like, while it was happening, that kind of thing. Yeah, really interesting man. And he did a lot of entertainment stuff too, so he.

Penn Badgley (39:06)

So he was assassinated.

Lizzy Kaplan (39:07)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (39:07)

Okay.

Lizzy Kaplan (39:08)

Anyway, he introduced me to a manager he knew who took like, a meeting to be nice to my uncle, I guess. And then they pawned me off on, like, the lowliest assistant in this tiny, tiny, like, three person management company. And then he started sending me out on auditions. And he was my first manager, this guy Ryan. So without my Uncle Howard, Yeah, I don't know how I would have started, really going on auditions. And I was auditioning for everything and getting nothing. And then I got one line on the pilot of Freaks and Geeks. And at first I was disappointed that I was not cast as the lead because in my mind it was going to be straight to the top and.

Penn Badgley (40:01)

Wait, how old are you? How old are you now?

Lizzy Kaplan (40:02)

15 for the pilot okay.

Penn Badgley (40:04)

Okay, cool.

Lizzy Kaplan (40:06)

And, yeah, it was like, the experience. The only way I can, like, really think about the experiences that I was like, such a fish out of water. I had no idea what I was doing. I felt, like, deeply uncomfortable the whole time I was there. I didn't get it. I don't know why, I don't know what in that experience kind of was enough to convince me to keep going, because it wasn't like a pleasurable experience for me. It was just intimidating and frightening. But then I guess I got a pilot, which ultimately didn't go. But I was a senior in high school and doing the school plays and stuff, and I got this pilot and I had already applied to and was accepted to theater school at nyu. And I didn't know what was going to happen with the pilot. And I remember asking my dad, like, hey, can I. Obviously, if this pilot goes, I have to stay here and I can't go to school. And he was like, yeah, of course. And then the pilot didn't get picked up. And I remember very vividly going to dinner with him and asking him, like, hey, my show didn't get picked up, which means I'm supposed to go to college. But to be honest, I really just want to try this. Can I just try this for one year? And he said yes. Which, looking back, is not surprising that he would have said yes. We were sort of, like, allowed to do what we wanted. But that yes was very meaningful to me. And had my mom still been around, like, there was just no fucking way that she would have let me do that. Like, no way. Oh, yeah. Again, who knows? Like, if I. I was not an actress, I didn't think about being an actress. Like, none of that was on my radar when my mom was around. So, like, I don't actually know how she would have reacted, but not going to college would have been, like, a huge no, no in my family. And so he let me do it. And then that was the loneliest, worst year ever. Trying to make it work in LA while literally all my friends were away having fun in college and. Yeah, for what? And, like, I just. And I don't know if you had this experience, but it was like I was just doing enough. Like, there were just enough crumbs to, like, sort of get me to the next job, like, emotionally. But it wasn't like, I wasn't the lead of anything. I was just doing, like, little, little, little bits like, oh. And it was just enough to keep me going. I don't know, because I really do look Back and it was like, I remember a lot of fearful times and probably trying to think what the first really fun job was. Maybe Mean Girls, maybe the class, this show that I did, that it was like, oh, okay, this is what it's supposed to be like. Fun.

Penn Badgley (43:01)

Yeah. I think for me, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun. I still struggle with it.

Lizzy Kaplan (43:06)

I mean, it must have been fun if you were the star of the do over.

Penn Badgley (43:10)

Yes, you're right. And then that was probably from 12 to 20. That was kind of a unique experience where it was, it was. There was something there that I really hung onto.

Lizzy Kaplan (43:22)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (43:24)

So I was gonna say it probably would have been Mean Girls or, you know, something around that time for you where it's like, probably you feel like, I mean, fun to me is like, that's just like a little spearhead into it, finally becoming something that you can imagine doing, enjoying an occupation. I mean, that's like a, That's a. That's a special thing for all the ups and downs, this strange career that we have. And I mean, you and me, not Neva, that it's, that it's. That it's, you know, it's. It's an incredible gift to be able to be able to love your occupation.

Lizzy Kaplan (44:04)

Totally, absolutely, completely agree. And I know that there are plenty of actors that, that haven't had that special job and still keep showing up and doing it. And I'm always impressed by that because I need it to also be like a worthwhile experience in making it like that almost matters to me the most.

Penn Badgley (44:25)

Especially as you get into a space where you're then known and you have to be on podcasts and stuff, because that's an aspect to a job that I think you really do have to love something integral to it. Otherwise it can be so kind of grating.

Lizzy Kaplan (44:40)

Totally. Every other part of the job is not my favorite, but being on set, doing the thing, making the thing is it's just. Yeah, I feel the same way as you. I feel very, very, very fortunate that it's my actual job.

Penn Badgley (44:55)

Can you give us a snapshot of what it was like to book Mean Girls and how it felt on set and be, you know, being a part of something. Did you feel at the time that it was? Because honestly, I don't recall. It was huge when it came out, no doubt. But like, you know, you don't know. Right.

Lizzy Kaplan (45:11)

It was a huge deal for me because I guess the, the only other time I had gotten like a guest star role on the show Smallville with shot in Vancouver and It was like, my first time flying, like, in business class. And then they put me in a hotel and it was a suite, and I ordered room service. It was such a big deal. Like, that was just not at all how I was raised. And then Mean Girls was. The whole thing was in Toronto for probably three months or something. And we lived in the hotel and it felt like a dorm, which, looking back, was a really important thing for me since, again, all of my. I would go visit them in college, and they were, like, having these really exciting new experiences. And I was in Los Angeles, like, going to the supermarket at three in the morning, hoping that anything would happen to me. Like, I would meet anybody and anything would happen. But Mean Girls was, like. It scratched that college experience itch. And it was so fun. I believe that it was really fun for everybody. We were sort of in, like, little subgroups, and my subgroup was very much Danny Franzese and Jonathan Bennett. And we had the greatest time just, like, bombing around Toronto. And I don't know if I thought just being in a movie felt like such a big deal to me at the time. I definitely wasn't focused on, like, box office or anything like that. It was just. It was the funniest script I had ever read. I wanted to be in it so bad. I fought so hard, and then it worked out, really.

Penn Badgley (46:55)

What do you mean by fought forward? Was it a long audition process?

Lizzy Kaplan (46:58)

Very, very long. It was one of those where everybody had to audition, I think, for, like, one of the two main. Like, Katie, the Lindsay Lohan part of the Rachel McAdams part. Probably everybody had to audition for the Lindsay Lohan part. And then they kind of sorted us into. And then we would get called back. And, yeah, I went in and they were resistant to casting me. Somebody reminded me of this recently. They, like, the studio wanted, like, Kelly Osborne to play that role. And so at one point, I don't remember who was on my side and who was, like, fighting against me getting the part. I was probably never privy to that. But they sent the. The hair person from Canada down to la and we went to Hollywood Boulevard and, like, put on dark wigs and just anything to send them screen grabs of, like, me looking like a goth kid. And I don't remember how long the process was, but I remember getting the phone call and where I was when I got the phone call that I got the part. And I do think, like. Like, how many times does that really happen to you in your career that it's like, so that you just want to, like, celebrate and it's nothing but exciting. There are no caveats and no, like, as you get older, you know, two or three times maybe.

Penn Badgley (48:30)

Yeah. It's great to hear you say that because sometimes I'm like, in all of this celebrity, there was no celebration.

Lizzy Kaplan (48:37)

Yeah, totally.

Penn Badgley (48:39)

Yeah. That's very cool to hear, though, that. That felt that way.

Lizzy Kaplan (48:43)

I think there's a few jobs that if you're lucky, you get to really go out and celebrate them. And that was one of them. And it was a blast. I loved making that movie.

Nava Kavlan (48:56)

Stick around. We'll be right back.

Sophie Ansari (49:01)

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Lizzy Kaplan (50:15)

That's.

Sophie Ansari (50:16)

There's nothing I want more than that, honestly. It's on the top of my priority list. The issue for me with having the courage to speak in a language that I'm learning is feeling like I don't have the accent down and so not feeling confident enough to just, like, go with it. That's why I love this feature on Rosetta Stone called True Accent. It's a speech recognition feature that provides real time feedback on your accent. It's always been the hardest part of learning a new language. I feel like it's tricky to just, like, nail it. You think you've got it, but you actually don't. And so I love that About Rosetta Stone don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. PodCrush listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for free. 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosetta stone.com podcrush to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com podcrushed and start learning today. I've got news for you. All your parents really want for Christmas is you. Mariah said it best, but I'll say it again. Whether you'll be joining your family in person or in spirit this holiday season, you can give them a gift that will keep the memories going all year long. A Digital Frame from Aura Frames Aura Frames makes the best digital picture frame out there. With timeless designs and crystal clear displays. You can upload as many photos or videos as you want. There's no limit and no extra charges. You just download the Aura app, connect to Wi Fi and start loading it up with your favorite family photos. We gave an Aura frame to my mother in law and she loves it. She actually we loaded it with a bunch of pictures of our daughter. She has added all her own family photos in there now and so when we go and visit them we can see this like revolving door of images of everyone we love on that side of the family and it's so sweet. And it really is the perfect gift for parents, grandparents, in laws, anyone you know who's obsessed with looking at photos of their kids, grandkids even like people who are obsessed with looking at pictures of their dogs. Everybody loves pictures so it's really for anybody. You know, you can't wrap togetherness but you can frame it for a limited time. Visit oraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best selling Carver Matte frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code podcrushed at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code podcrushed this exclusive black Friday Cyber Monday deal is the best of the year, so order now before it ends. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. There's no feeling quite like seeing my favorite store pop up on Rakuten because you know what that means. I get to buy all the items that I already have in my cart and Rakuten is going to reward me with cash back after purchasing. It's a win win. Rakuten is especially great around this time of year because it lets you stack cash back on top of the holiday deals that stores are already offering. For example, if your favorite store is having a sale for 20% off and Rakuten has 15% cash back, you can stack the two deals together to maximize your savings. That's savings on top of savings. That's what I like to hear. Rakuten partners with all your favorite stores across categories like fashion, beauty, wellness, electronics, home essentials, travel, dining, and so much more. They have their hands in everything. I recently picked up this under eye color corrector from Tarte and luckily Tarte is on Rakuten so I was able to get some cash back. There's nothing I love more than that it justifies the purchase for me. It is super easy to sign up for Rakuten and membership is free. You can go to rakuten.com, download the app, or install the browser extension. Join today for a new member. Welcome bonus after minimum qualifying purchases, terms and conditions apply.

Penn Badgley (54:21)

This is a bit of a fast forward, but this is one that we. We actually had to watch this for. Why did we have to. We had another guest on and I am completely blanking on who it is. Well, we'll have to cut that part, but we have figure it out. This whole podcast we have, we love Fleischman is in trouble. Really an exceptional series.

Lizzy Kaplan (54:43)

Adam Brody.

Penn Badgley (54:45)

Yeah, that's it. Yep, yep, yep. That's who it was. It does something with its. With its twists that as a person who makes a lot of television, I was impressed by that just as a. Just as a formula, bending or breaking, inverting, subverting. I was like, wow. I. It takes a lot for me to be impressed, truly impressed by a show that one did it like, that one did it in spades because it also, I mean it had so much else going for it. But that right there was like at its foundation, it's quietly a little TV revolution. You know what I mean?

Lizzy Kaplan (55:21)

So like that's very kind and I do agree. And I. It's all Taffy Brodesser Akner, a the novelist who also wrote every episode of the show. And it's a combination of her. I mean she's like so ridiculously talented. Like, she's my favorite writer. She's amazing. It was her just like raw talent combined with her complete inexperience with television.

Penn Badgley (55:56)

Like, had she been kind of awesome.

Lizzy Kaplan (55:58)

You know, like a career TV writer. Yeah. She would know. You know, there are things like, oh, there's no way that she would put like an 11 page scene with two people just talking to each other sitting on the, with like nothing dynamic happening around them. Like nobody would do that. They wouldn't let somebody like read. And I basically like read the book over voice in voiceover over the whole series. I think probably you'd be like, oh, nobody's going to want me to do that, so I won't do that. But she didn't know and they really championed her and it's, it's, it's all her. But I. That was a really special, very, very wonderful show to be a part of. And I think also part of it is for me it reminded me of the stuff that I remember watching. And it's not even like a specific movie or TV show that I could even name. It was just, I remember wanting to be an actress because I was raised on these character driven stories which were really just about normal people figuring it out. And we don't get that very often anymore. There always has to be some hook or genre gimmick or something. And that was just people, quite honestly in like navigating middle age. And we're this age now and I feel like our parents generation had many, many, many things to watch that were, that was common were commenting on their experience at the time. And we really don't have very much of that at all. And so this show, I know I talked to so many of my peers about it and they all watched it and they all like it fucked them up in the best possible way. And everybody's just like really hungry for stories that feel like, oh, this is making me feel slightly less alone in the world. Like, is that not the whole fucking point? Like, oh, these thoughts that I have in my head are actually potentially more universal than I initially thought. And that makes me feel less despondent. That's what it did for me every.

Penn Badgley (57:55)

I don't know if this is your experience. I think this is kind of universal among actors. But like when you're doing a job, even if you don't, even if initially you don't think you like it that much, you don't connect to it. I mean, this one is of course not that, but I guess what I'm trying to say is like kind of no matter what, you end up finding this symmetry between yourself and your character where it feels almost like spiritual in a way, where you're like, this is exactly what I'm working on right now. And in a way there's like, I don't, I can't imagine not doing this right now.

Sophie Ansari (58:32)

And I.

Penn Badgley (58:33)

And for that reason it's sort of like I can't imagine anyone else playing this role right now. I'm curious if. Well, it threatens to be potentially too personal of a question, but if it's one, you can answer.

Nava Kavlan (58:49)

Okay.

Penn Badgley (58:49)

You know, what were some of those symmetries you were going through with your character?

Lizzy Kaplan (58:52)

Yes, and I have. I think there have been many points, probably like the majority up until Fleischmann. I guess I have felt that many times that, like, this is exactly where I'm at in my life or the questions I'm asking myself in my head. And now I get to, like, play them out in other ways. That is definitely one of the coolest parts of the job when it happens with Fleischmann, it was. It was such a very specific time. My son was three months old. It was the first job that I did after having him. It was also coming out of the pandemic, so everything was very strange. And I was playing this character who had two older kids, had been married forever, was living in the suburbs, sort of given up on her own personal dreams to raise her family, which is, you know, not a unique life path. Many people do that. And I was living the exact opposite. I was completely besotted by my baby and the fact that we had just had a baby and we were in New York and everything felt exciting. Nothing felt stale, monotonous. All the things that my character in that show is like, is being suffocated by, like, all of those feelings and stagnation. It was the total opposite. But it was probably. It probably enhanced that experience for me, like, the gratitude around not finding myself in that really stifled life position. It was just totally. Yeah. So different. Yeah.

Penn Badgley (60:34)

I did want you to tell your fun, fun story about meeting your husband.

Lizzy Kaplan (60:37)

I.

Lizzy Kaplan's Husband or Close Associate (60:38)

We were, like, aware of each other before. Before I left to go to London to make this movie. And then he was going through this breakup or very long, long term relationship. And so that was definitely not where his head was at. I went and shot this movie. Ended up having, like, this wonderful time. And, like, halfway through, he reached out to me because he was gonna go to la, and he was like, oh, you get coffee in la. And I was like, I'm in London. We should, you know, hang out here. And he resisted it. And then we did, and then we had great dates. And that was 10 years ago. And the cool part of this story is because I won't go into the details of this. Sorry, but I won't go into the details of my early dating with my husband, but the. He came to visit me one day on set in 10 years ago, 11 years ago in London, and I was doing this stunt with, like, a bunch of doves. I had to get, like, a magic trick releasing doves. And then when we were shooting this new one in Budapest, he came to set to visit me with our son. And it was another dove day. And we have these pictures of our son, like, holding these doves. And that was a very lovely book ending thing. Very cute.

Penn Badgley (62:05)

That's very cool. Kind of encapsulates the bright side of. Possible answer to this question I'm going to ask now.

Lizzy Kaplan (62:14)

Okay.

Penn Badgley (62:15)

Given how, you know, 10 years ago, 11 years ago, the state of the world might not have been called into question as readily. As readily kind of in any circle as it is now. Right. How did it feel? Did it feel surreal returning to, like, I can only imagine that you did not see a sequel. Well, I mean, maybe you did.

Nava Kavlan (62:42)

I don't know.

Penn Badgley (62:42)

Did you see yourself doing this again, like, a decade later?

Lizzy Kaplan (62:45)

No. No.

Lizzy Kaplan's Husband or Close Associate (62:46)

I mean, I had heard, you know, rumors that they were going to reboot.

Lizzy Kaplan (62:49)

It, and there were a few different.

Lizzy Kaplan's Husband or Close Associate (62:50)

Iterations, but, no, I didn't know if it was ever going to happen. And I think the biggest, like, the biggest trip about the whole thing has been there's these three younger actors in this, and they're like the new guard of the. Of the Horsemen. And we, like, they're young. Ariana's like 17. Justice is maybe 30, but they're all. And Dom is in somewhere in the middle there. So, like, they're young.

Lizzy Kaplan (63:26)

And we're the.

Lizzy Kaplan's Husband or Close Associate (63:26)

Fucking old ones now.

Penn Badgley (63:28)

That is weird.

Lizzy Kaplan's Husband or Close Associate (63:29)

Like, 10 years ago, it was like Woody and Mark Ruffalo were slightly older than us, but then it was like Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman. And now we are, I guess, like, Woody to Ariana. Like, it's just too weird. Yeah, it's really, really odd.

Lizzy Kaplan (63:44)

And everybody, like, of our cat, nobody.

Lizzy Kaplan's Husband or Close Associate (63:49)

Looks better than Woody Harrelson on this earth because he just eats, like, leaves and sunshine. But it's nuts that he's 10 years older and looks exactly the same and kind of the same for everybody. Well, I'm saying that hopefully.

Penn Badgley (64:05)

No, I think it's true. I definitely think it's true. Yeah, it's a hard left turn. But if you could go back to you at 12 years old, is there anything you would say or do you.

Lizzy Kaplan (64:18)

I.

Lizzy Kaplan's Husband or Close Associate (64:20)

Would say that the plan of putting your head down and getting to this point in life with your own family actually is a very worthy goal worth striving for. And there will be many adventures and misadventures along the way, but ultimately, the initial plan. If I were to stick with the initial plan, it would pay off. It has paid off.

Penn Badgley (64:46)

Thank you so much. Lovely to meet you.

Sophie Ansari (64:48)

Yes, you can check out Lizzy Kaplan in Now you See me, Now you don't. In theaters November 14th, and you can follow her online at Helizzy Kaplan Podcrushed is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavlan, and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari, and our editing is done by Clips and Agency. If you haven't subscribed to La Monada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com. don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all.

Lizzy Kaplan (65:46)

Bye.

Podcast Advertiser/Host (65:48)

Are you Team Batman or Spider Man? Is the ultimate dish pizza or tacos? SmashBoom Best will help settle those debates and so many more. Every episode we take two cool things, smash them together, and we see which one is best. Debaters use facts, jokes, stories, and more to argue for their side, and it's all judged by a teenager because who is better at judging than a teen. It's fun. It's weirdly informative. It's smashboom Best. Get it? Wherever you get your podcasts.