Lola Kirke

Summary

Podcrushed: Lola Kirke

Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guest: Lola Kirke
Release Date: December 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode welcomes actress, musician, and newly-minted author Lola Kirke, who joins the Podcrushed crew (including her brother-in-law, Penn Badgley) for a candid conversation about growing up in an artsy, complicated, and famous family; longing for belonging; wrestling with beauty standards; carving out her own creative path; and the joys, cringe, and heartbreak of adolescence. True to Podcrushed’s spirit, the chat is disarmingly funny, deeply reflective, sometimes vulnerable, and always relatable.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Wolf Pack Family & Feeling Like an Outsider

(08:20–15:00)

• Lola describes her family in her memoir as “exceptionally good looking wolves, some of whom you might not want to meet alone at night.”
• Her childhood home was “chaotic, glamorous, territorial.”
• Despite appearances, Lola always felt a bit like an outsider in the “pack”—“I feel like I’m really boring, have no personality, and totally approachable. But maybe other people don’t see me that way.” (09:40)
• As a youngest child with a larger age gap from her siblings (especially Domino, 8 years older), she often felt invisible—a feeling that has shaped her both positively and negatively.

Notable Quote:
“I always knew that my feeling of being unseen growing up led me to not one, not two, but three careers in which I'm like, see me please. See me please. I’m so unsat. Please.” – Lola (20:09)

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2. Birth Order, Belonging, and the Search for Identity

(15:00–21:30)

• The hosts and Lola bond over all being youngest children—the “elite” position as per Sophie.
• Lola reflects on watching her sisters (Domino and Jemima) from the sidelines, looking up to and sometimes being resented by them.
• Her attempts to assimilate into American culture after moving from London to New York (at age 5), to avoid being bullied at school, only meant she got “bullied at home” for adopting an American accent.

Notable Quote:
“My desire to be seen was fueled by feeling very unseen as a child. But…when you want to make art, you don’t just want to be seen, but you want other people to feel seen too.” – Lola (20:25)

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3. Family Background and Expectations

(25:40–28:49, 58:54–62:37)

• Lola’s father, Simon Kirke, was the drummer and founding member of iconic rock bands Free and Bad Company.
• Her mother, Lorraine Kirke, owned a famous vintage store, Geminola, in NYC’s West Village.
• Expectations to pursue, and excel in, the arts felt less like encouragement and more like a mandate: “It wasn’t just, ‘be creative’—it was, ‘be successful in your field.’” (27:33)
• They reminisce about their social circle’s downtown, bohemian New York scene—one “that can never exist again” in today’s corporatized, sanitized era.

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4. Beauty, Body Image, and the Value System of the Arts

(38:18–47:40)

• Lola shares the infamous story of a “10-pound replica of fat” being displayed on their dining room table—symbolizing the family’s fraught relationship to weight and appearance (38:34).
  • “I definitely went from a beauty conscious household into beauty conscious industries.”
• The group discusses how Hollywood/arts culture presents itself as rebellious but ends up reinforcing the same old values, just “with a leather jacket.”
• Lola reflects on internalizing aggression and self-improvement, quoting Pema Chödrön: “The desire for self improvement is a form of aggression towards ourselves” (40:18), and finding new peace with her body and self-image.
• She brings up the feeling of relief seeing aging actresses “with lines on their faces”—contrasted with the alienation of “weird” cosmetic procedures (47:23).

Notable Quotes:
“I am on this earth to do more than just be pretty.” – Lola (41:47)
“We live in a society that has made youth into a commodity and values that above all else... Being young breaks my heart.” – Lola (48:53)

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5. Adolescent Heartbreak & Cringe

(65:01–72:15)

• Lola talks about her childhood loves (musicians like Julian Casablancas and Heath Ledger).
  • Cherished memento: a Strokes autograph signed by Domino, her sister, on her behalf (66:18).
• Cringiest adolescence memory: Trying to emulate the film “Darling,” she buys a Siamese fighting fish as an accessory. At school, a cool kid seizes and eats her fish, retaliating with a Coke slushie poured over her after she dumps her fish’s water on his head.
  • The “bully” later asks her to prom and—years later—posts a photo of her bare feet from the Golden Globes stage (“hometown girl makes good”) (71:04).

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6. Craft, Career, and Staying Genuine

(34:32–36:37, 72:25–87:53)

• After a career lull during Covid, Lola discovered a love for writing and storytelling—resulting in her memoir, Wild West Village (34:38).
• Her experience in film vs. TV; on Mozart in the Jungle (“changed my life”) and working with Noah Baumbach and Greta Gerwig on Mistress America.
• On being a professional actor: “Being an artist is humiliating, you know, when it’s not humbling… Learning how arbitrary that kind of value is when it’s placed on you when you’re doing well.” (36:37)
• On the film Sinners: Working with Ryan Coogler and Michael B. Jordan, capturing musical performances, and the technical process.
• She expresses gratitude for her sensibilities and friendships—reiterating the importance of found family and strong women in her chosen support system.

Notable Moments:
– Lola’s story about being babysat by Liv Tyler, who launched “Big Bellies of the World Unite,” making Lola feel body-positive as a child (51:51).
– Her observation on the industry’s obsession with beauty—“It’s a bandage on a bullet wound.” (45:13)

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7. Songwriting, Country Music, and Fitting In

(92:34–97:34)

• Though British-American, Lola’s love of country music comes from its humor, storytelling, and multivalent women: “It’s a lot of grit and glamour for women. They get to be tough and tender and mothers and glamorous.” (93:29)
• Current songwriting explores growing up, societal pressures, moving past “just more songs about fucking” (95:59).
  • “Sex is like water. It’s the best thing ever when you want it, but when you don’t, it’s just boring.” (96:37)
• She’s now writing about family less, branching into other themes, and seeking her "own club" to belong to.

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Memorable Quotes

“I always knew that my feeling of being unseen growing up led me to not one, not two, but three careers in which I'm like, see me please. See me please. I’m so unsat. Please.” – Lola (20:09)

“I am on this earth to do more than just be pretty.” – Lola (41:47)

“Sex is like water. It’s the best thing ever when you want it, but when you don’t, it’s just boring.” – Lola (96:37)

“We live in a society that has made youth into a commodity and values that above all else… Being young breaks my heart.” – Lola (48:53)

“As an actor, you can’t… it’s very hard to articulate… just how much you become identified with something that in some ways you were, like, not responsible for at all.” – Penn (78:12)

“As much as I worry about the way that I look, I never worry enough to really do that much about it... It's a bandage on a bullet wound.” – Lola (45:13)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 08:20–10:39: Lola describes the “wolf pack” Kirk household, family dynamics, and childhood
• 13:49–15:21: Relationships with Domino and Jemima; bullying at home and school
• 20:09–21:30: The need to be seen, and its impact on creative longing
• 25:48–28:29: Parental background: rockstar father, boho mother, and artsy expectations
• 38:34–41:47: The “10-pound replica of fat,” beauty pressures, and sense of self
• 46:01–47:23: Playing a principal in a film, aging, moving beyond the ingénue phase
• 51:51: Big Bellies of the World Unite—body image and Liv Tyler’s positive impact
• 62:37–64:54: On avoiding eating disorders, and the impact of sisters’ struggles
• 65:01–66:54: First infatuations (Julian Casablancas, Heath Ledger); cherished mementos
• 70:08–71:04: The “Darling” fish and the ultimate high school cringe
• 72:38–77:25: Career highs and lows: Mozart in the Jungle, Mistress America, streaming boom
• 87:53–93:29: Sinners: casting story, music performance, filming with Coogler/Jordan
• 94:32–97:34: Songwriting, family, longing for belonging, moving away from country music
• 98:13–98:37: Advice to younger self: “Go and create your life.”

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Final Reflections and Advice

• Lola sees her arc as moving from “unseen child” to someone fiercely committed to making and sharing art that helps others feel seen.
• She advocates for honesty, self-acceptance, and pushing back against beauty and societal conformity—using humor and storytelling as her tools.
• To her 12-year-old self, she’d say simply: “Go and create your life.” (98:22)

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For More

• Lola Kirke’s memoir: Wild West Village: Not a Memoir Unless I Win an Oscar, Die Tragically, or Score a Country Number One
• Her latest album and music can be found on all major platforms.
• Follow her on Instagram: @lolakirk

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Podcrushed remains a fun, vulnerable, and sharply insightful roundtable on the universal wounds and wildness of growing up—this time, with Lola Kirke’s wit, wisdom, and lived experience front and center.

Transcript

[Nava Cavlin]

Lemonade.

[Penn Badgley]

I will say that I'm almost surprised by how much whatever room you're in looks like it was at least in part decorated by your mother.

[Lola Kirk]

Well, Ken, I think that you will be not surprised to learn that I'm at her house. Oh. Cause I was like.

[Penn Badgley]

I was like, what on earth? Damn. She really, really is picking it up. Welcome to PodCrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Pen.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm Sophie.

[Nava Cavlin]

And I'm Nava.

[Lola Kirk]

And I think we would have been.

[Penn Badgley]

Your middle school besties, publicly saying you love Nine Inch Nails, but privately feeling like they're just a little bit too intense. Hello and welcome to PodCrushed. I am joined by my co hosts, Nava and Sophie. I'm not going to give you the last names because if you're here, you probably know them. You know them so well because you come. You come here just to feel like you're part of the gang. You know what I mean?

[Sophie Ansari]

And you are. We love you.

[Nava Cavlin]

Yeah. Okay. So today's guest is Lola, Kirk and Pen's sister in law. So delightful. One thing she talks about in her book really early on is she describes her family as wolves, which I thought was really cool. And it made me curious. What animal do you guys identify with?

[Sophie Ansari]

Great question.

[Penn Badgley]

I've always wanted to be a dolphin. Like, unironically. True desire as a child. Like, honest. Like a real desire to be a.

[Sophie Ansari]

Dolphin, not a whale.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Because dolphins are so acrobatic. Like, a whale's slow. Why would you. I mean, what do you get from being a whale?

[Sophie Ansari]

Cause dolphins are kind of known as being, like, annoying. You know that, right?

[Nava Cavlin]

Sophie wants to make sure you know that.

[Penn Badgley]

You said that, like, suddenly you became my sister and you were like, hey, do we even.

[Nava Cavlin]

Not a whale?

[Sophie Ansari]

Just so you know, I have swam with both whales and dolphins. And dolphins.

[Penn Badgley]

Here's what I've heard is that. Is that dolphins literally can, like, dissuade sharks from attacking other animals. And they. And they're. And they're buoyant and funny and acrobatic and lithe, and they swim through the water really fast and they flip.

[Sophie Ansari]

They're kind of, like, vengeful, though.

[Penn Badgley]

Dolphins are vengeful.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's saying you're making that up.

[Lola Kirk]

That's all I can say.

[Penn Badgley]

That's chatgpt right there. That is not true. Facts.

[Nava Cavlin]

No.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. No, it's not true. It's not.

[Nava Cavlin]

No.

[Penn Badgley]

Whales are vengeful. You're getting it mixed up. Chat.

[Lola Kirk]

I don't remember where I Learned it.

[Penn Badgley]

From just like Chatgpt.

[Nava Cavlin]

Her Snapple fact of the day was.

[Penn Badgley]

TARDIS AI co host here.

[Nava Cavlin]

My answer is so boring, but I really identify with a cat. I think also because I've lived alone for so long and cats are really independent. I know incredibly boring. But that is the truth I identify with.

[Penn Badgley]

Also. You are so not a cat person.

[Nava Cavlin]

No, I love cats. I. The only reason I for a long time loved cats more than dogs. The only reason I don't have a pet cat is because my sister is so deathly allergic that every time she came to visit me it would be a huge problem. Otherwise I would have a cat. I love them. I also love dogs, but.

[Penn Badgley]

Interesting, you know.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You just strike me as such a dog person because of how much you love your dogs.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

The only thing that is coming to mind is I'm actually. When you ask that question. I was brought back, transported to my friend Nico Millington's basement in high school where we would hang out a lot. And there were a few guys in the great above me who likened me to a cocker spaniel. They were like, you kind of look like a dog and you look specifically like a cocker spaniel. I had like short curly hair and I hated it. And there was one day where we were watching a film in his basement and a dog came up and was barking and Sam Bernier Cormier is his name.

[Nava Cavlin]

What a name.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah.

[Nava Cavlin]

Wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

Turned to me and was like, what did. What did he say?

[Nava Cavlin]

And I was so insulted.

[Lola Kirk]

I've never forgotten it.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's the. A cocker spaniel is the animal I identify with, but not by choice.

[Nava Cavlin]

Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, wow.

[Lola Kirk]

That's.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow. So that's why you got so spicy when this question came up. You were.

[Nava Cavlin]

She was triggered.

[Penn Badgley]

You went wrecked at Bernier Cormier.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

To get it off the rails. My sister in law is the guest to do. No, Lola is really. She's an interesting figure in the world of entertainment because she's. If you know of her, you probably love her. She's not only a successful musician, but she's been an actress for quite a while now and really been a part of some.

Kind of like huge projects. You know, she's worked with some of the best directors of our age. Most recently you would have seen her in Sinners as one of the white vampires, which is, you know, I mean, it's a weird way to define somebody, but it really makes sense for the film. And she does a lot of singing and she's a nasty gnarly gnarly figure in that film. And it was for me personally, it was great to see her that way because that's not how she presents in real life at all. She's also got a blossoming literary career. Her book Wild West Village is out now on hardcover and out in softcover in January. Let's get to these ads so we can get onto the show. We will be right back.

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Lola Love your memoir. It's incredible. Such an easy, fun read. And something that struck me in the introduction is that you describe your family as exceptionally good looking wolves, some of whom you might not want to meet alone at night. And so I was curious, if you were to drop into the Kirk household at 12, how literal is that? Like, what would we see? Was the family chaotic, glamorous, territorial? Like, what's the vibe in the Kirk household?

[Lola Kirk]

All of the above, chaotic, glamorous, territorial. Um, but I, I mean, I think that the thing, I feel like wolves are like really hip. You know, there was like a while back where it was like a turn where it was like if you had like a wolf on your t shirt, like it meant you were cool. So like, it is a compliment when I say that they are wolves.

[Penn Badgley]

You know that's true. Also when they were reintroduced back into the, like Yosemite national park or whatever, it like rebuilt the river, blah, blah, blah. Remember that whole thing? Do you guys know what I'm talking about?

[Lola Kirk]

No.

[Nava Cavlin]

Oh yeah, I think I know what you're talking about.

[Sophie Ansari]

Just like every other time you open your mouth on this podcast, I.

[Lola Kirk]

The thing is, I literally know nothing about how anything works. Like, I didn't know that wolves like had a purpose, but I did know that they looked great. And I feel like that says a lot.

[Nava Cavlin]

That makes sense. So you consider yourself part of the wolf pack? Sort of. You have those same traits or a little bit more of an outsider.

[Lola Kirk]

I feel like an outsider. I feel like I'm like really boring, have no personality and totally Approachable. But I feel like maybe other people might not feel that way about making. My sense of self is typically off. And thank God, because, I mean, actually, I don't know. But I don't know if you guys can relate to this, but I think a lot of bad things about me. And then I'll go to my expensive therapist who reminds me of Pen, and I'll say those things, and expensive therapist who reminds me of Penn will say.

No, those aren't true about you. So I don't know. But I grew up definitely feeling different from members of my family. And I think as I've gotten older, I'm, like, humbled to be like, oh, all of those things that I wanted to have in common with them, I sort of do. And all of the things that I wanted to be different from them. Like, I'm not that different. So that's been a big part of my growing up process.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I will say that I'm almost surprised by how much whatever room you're in looks like it was at least in part, decorated by your mother.

[Lola Kirk]

Well, Ken, I think that you will be not surprised to learn that I'm at her house. Oh. Cause I was like.

[Penn Badgley]

I was like, what on earth? Damn. She really, really is picking it up. And then you have this sweater over your shoulders, and I'm like, she's turning into her mother.

[Lola Kirk]

Well, the very sweet thing about our mom is that despite us not living with her anymore, she has, like, designated rooms in her house. That's true for us, for each of you. And my room, like, remains like this. Like, the plainest, smallest one, which I think is in line with what I was kind of saying about, you know, my sense of self and being different from the family. Like, I've always had, like, the little child's room that's, like, she's not really. Like, when we first moved to America from London, we moved to New York, and I have this bedroom that was, like. I think it was a closet. And I was proud of that room in a lot of ways.

[Penn Badgley]

How old were you?

[Lola Kirk]

And overlooked. Oh, five.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. I was gonna say. Cause you strike me, actually, as the only American of the family. That may be the difference.

[Nava Cavlin]

I've heard Pen say that about you.

[Lola Kirk]

Yes. And, like, I love America.

[Penn Badgley]

No, you are. No, Like, I actually, for instance, like Domino, your oldest sister, my wife. For anybody who's not aware.

She's an interesting blend of British and American, because when you guys moved here, she was 12. So some of that formative.

British cynicism she definitely doesn't have. But then. Interesting. Your sister Jemima. Your sister Jemima is very British, although she's younger than Domino. Your sister to me seems resolutely British, the same way your mother and father do.

[Sophie Ansari]

That is very interesting.

[Lola Kirk]

Totally.

[Penn Badgley]

Right.

[Lola Kirk]

Well, I think coming back to this idea of being an outsider, like, it served our purposes to kind of adapt to the culture we moved into in different ways. Like, for me, adapt, adapting into American culture was a way of not being like, bullied at school. Though it certainly meant I was like, bullied at home when I'd come home and be like, I say water now instead of water and butter instead of butter, because you can't like get away with that. But I think that for my sisters, I think Domino definitely wanted to like assimilate a little bit more. But I feel like Jemima's whole vibe is like, I don't assimilate.

[Penn Badgley]

Totally.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah. So she retained it. I mean, it's all, you know, it's just, it's all survival skills and trauma responses with us, really. Yeah.

[Nava Cavlin]

You've referenced feeling like an outsider. And I feel like that comes through really strongly in the book. Like, I. As I'm reading, I'm like, oh, I feel so much like longing from Lola, like longing to be witnessed by her sisters, like in different ways. It seems like maybe it was harder for you to connect with them for different reasons. And I'm curious if you can tell us a little bit about your relationship with each sister as you're growing up.

[Lola Kirk]

Domino was. She's eight years older than me and so, so much, I mean, so much of both of my relationship with both my sisters was just like watching like, I think when you're the youngest child and kind of by a lot, you're just like, no one really wants to hear from you. And I get it. Like, kids are boring. So. Yeah, but. No, I'm joking.

But I just spent like so much time watching them. And Domino. Domino was a lot like sweeter to me when we were kids. Cause I think the gap was like so much bigger that I was just like, really, you know, non threatening entity. Also, I realized for older children that this weird thing happens where like you were the youngest and then you're like dethroned. Like, I guess Pen and I have both never really experienced that. So I think that that's. By the time I came along, Domino was like so used to being not the baby anymore that like, it was like old news. Jemima, on the other hand, was a total bully.

But. And the squeaky Wheel gets the grease. Like, I just like did everything that she did, which obviously, you know, was the opposite of, of how to win, you know, her affection. Because then I just annoyed her. But I didn't know that. And I think that she. I think Jemima would have really liked being the youngest child in a certain way.

[Penn Badgley]

That's interesting.

[Nava Cavlin]

That is really interesting.

[Lola Kirk]

But I ruined that for her.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, you did come so much. You were very unexpected, weren't you?

[Lola Kirk]

I was. Well, I mean, you know, my mom actually did have a few pregnancies, not to term between me and Jemima, which is hence the age difference.

But I mean, the way I looked, I was a very scary looking baby. So that was unexpected. I mean, I was like, yes, families.

[Penn Badgley]

You know what families look like. I just realized when I, when you were describing, when I was reading your book.

And you're describing yourself as an infant. Well, first of all, I've seen the pictures and it's funny how much you look like, like you look at this surprised. It's true, you're kind of making fun of yourself mercilessly. But there's something about it that is accurate where you look particularly like everything you thought about yourself. Very funny. No, it is funny. But you look. I didn't. I hadn't connected it. There is one of our twins. Looks like you.

[Lola Kirk]

Looks like that. Oh, my God.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes, very much.

[Nava Cavlin]

That's sweet.

[Penn Badgley]

Very, very much.

[Lola Kirk]

I'm sorry I'm coming over tomorrow. By the way, I'm not sure if.

[Penn Badgley]

You'Re aware of this.

[Lola Kirk]

I'm very excited to see this development.

[Sophie Ansari]

Cute.

[Nava Cavlin]

Also funny that only one of them looks like her, but they're identical.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, it is amazing.

[Lola Kirk]

They were identical.

[Penn Badgley]

They are, but they really do you know what it is?

[Lola Kirk]

Other.

[Penn Badgley]

And you guys might find this just when you're looking at infants, but you only see it in certain expressions. It's not like they have resting face that looks like everyone else. It's like they do something and you're like, oh, whoa. That is, you know, so and so and straight up our baby B. I'm not using their names yet publicly.

[Lola Kirk]

I would say subject B. Subject A and subject B. Exhibit A and subject B.

[Sophie Ansari]

You talk, speaking of baby pictures, you talk in your book about like you're going through these different pictures of you and these funny captions that are like very plain. And then you, you tell us that you actually wrote those captions because you had to like insert yourself into the family memories, which I thought was so funny. I'm also a youngest child and I still feel. I'm, like, still reckoning with it. I love being the youngest child. I feel like it is the superior birth order. But, yeah, there's. There's a lot that.

[Penn Badgley]

Superior. Superior is a strong word to use.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah. Elite.

[Nava Cavlin]

Superior. We're all youngest children, by the way.

[Lola Kirk]

Elite. The elite position. Well, this makes so much sense.

[Nava Cavlin]

Okay, so I was curious.

[Sophie Ansari]

It sounds like there are some vestiges of that in, like, you have the plainest room in your mother's house still. But how else do you see your youngest child position, like, coming up in your life as an adult?

[Lola Kirk]

Well, you know, I had the most incredible experience with my mom this morning, where last night we watched a really triggering movie with Diane Keaton in it. Shoot the Moon. Don't watch it with your parents, I would say, especially if your parents got divorced. Just don't do it. But I got. I. I kind of. I was really underslept because I had taken a red eye the night before, and I got upset with her, and I said, you know, because I thought that her allegiance was with one of the characters in the movie, that moralistically, I was like, you should not align yourself with that person. And she did this, like, incredible thing, which she was like, okay, I hear you, but can I come back to you and talk about this later? And I was like, what the hell is going on? Like, who is this?

[Penn Badgley]

All right, Lorraine.

[Lola Kirk]

Lorraine is, like, killing Penn.

[Sophie Ansari]

She's seeing your therapist.

[Penn Badgley]

That's growth right there. That's plasticity. She's actually seeing Penn in the latter half of life.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah. She's also putting in the family therapist pen. Yeah. This morning I, like, went to talk to her, and. And I never thought this would happen in my life because I was. I was like, I shouldn't have. I have a great relationship with my mom in so many ways. Like, I don't need her to apologize for everything that happened. Like, that's icing on the cake of anything. Like, we can have a good relationship in the present because there's a lot of amazing stuff that my mom can do. But this morning, she, like, was like, hi, I'd like to read you this letter that I wrote you last night. And it was so sweet, and it apologized. It was, like, really accountable and responsible. One of the things that she said was, like, you know, I. I never gave your feelings. Gave your feelings any spotlight growing up. And I was like, oh. Like, I always knew that my feeling of being unseen growing up, like, led me to not one, not two, but three careers in which I'm like, see me please. See me please. I'm so unsat. Please.

But she like nailed it. The word Maybe she asked ChatGPT if I were a mother, if I were a mother. She was daughter who has multiple careers that need so much attention.

So yes, I think my desire to, to be seen was fueled by feeling very unseen as a child. But I, I, I don't think that that's just, you know, that if, if that's the only reason that we want to make art, then I think, or, you know, I think that that's more the career of like an influencer. I feel like when you want to make art, you don't just want to be seen, but you want other people to feel seen too. There's like this wonderful Joni Mitchell quote which is like, people don't come to hear my music to hear about me, they come to hear about them. And I think it's through the kind of specificity of writing about our own experiences which you guys all have just done and you know, so brilliantly but through that that people get to really be like, oh yeah, I danced to like an NSYNC video in my house to a tee because I thought everyone would be like so wowed. But I don't know, the more specific you are, I think the more universal we can be. So, so yeah, actually the back cover.

[Penn Badgley]

Of your book is a picture that you're, that you reference in the opening chapters as well. And this is really a time of your life. For instance, like I, I didn't know anything about this period of your life at all.

It's interesting that you, that you, from what I can gather, you sort of, you speak about.

You'Re entering middle school, ish, let's say 11, 12, and you're just starting to, you know, you speak.

Humorously about getting headshots.

And you are, you know, I guess you have an agent, you're starting to pursue.

One of the performing arts that was expected in your family of all the girls, evidently.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And that I did know, I did know that you were all sort of loosely expected to just be, to be successful artists. No pressure, but.

And it sounds like by the end of middle school, a few short years later, you are screen testing for a role that eventually Kristen Stewart got.

And then you're also, you know, I didn't quite get how you're being ask to be photographed for Teen Vogue, but it sounds like, you know, at least from a middle schooler's perspective, from a 13 or 14 year old's perspective you're really starting to become professional. And I'm just curious about that arc those few years. Like, what did that. What did day to day life feel like then for you? What was it? You know, because there are so many eccentricities I'm aware of in the family. But then you going through middle school, your sisters are basically. They're kind of gone at this point, right?

[Lola Kirk]

Like, totally. Yeah.

Well, I think what's become very clear to me as I've gotten older and experienced the ebbs and flows of a career when you're lucky to have one, is that none of that should be taken for granted. And I think as a kid, it's funny that you would be like, you were in Teen Vogue. That was kind of like a professional moment to me. I'm like, that was just Tuesday. Everyone was in. Everyone I knew was like, fabulous and in Teen Vogue. And no, it is crazy.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, it is crazy.

[Lola Kirk]

It was a really.

[Penn Badgley]

When I got into you, I didn't. Had. I didn't know. I really didn't know. And then the longer I know your family, I went, oh, my God, you guys know everybody. It is really phenomenal.

[Lola Kirk]

You know everybody. That's, like, actually, like, cool. I don't know, it's something that I feel like I haven't, like, read about or seen much of.

In, like, represented in culture, which is like, it's not just about, like, you know, affluent New Yorkers. Cause I feel like that's like, succession. Like, we could. We've seen shows about, like, wealthy people on the Upper east side, but, like, that downtown art world where, like, it is something that I think deserves a closer look, especially because I don't think that that's being. That that can never exist again. I think exorbitant wealth and cultural elite will exist always and be crazy. I mean, maybe not always, but I think that that particular world, like indie sleaze, that generation of people who went to Studio 54 and then became parents, it's kind of crazy. Like, I don't know that the world is too, like, corporatized now, I think, to understand that. And also like kind of the first generation of kids with rock star parents or parents that were in that world. And that's why, you know, it was the wild West. Like, these people were like professional, hot young people. That was, like, part of their job. And then they became, like, parents. And they had kids that, you know, looked pretty good because they were all beautiful and they were artistic and creative. And I think raising those kids into adults was, like, really like, challenging for them, because I think a lot of those people came from much more traditional backgrounds as well.

[Nava Cavlin]

Lola.

[Lola Kirk]

Just like they weren't raised by rock stars.

[Nava Cavlin]

Just for people who don't know, can you just quickly tell us who your mom and dad are? Like, what they did to give this context?

[Lola Kirk]

So my dad was the drummer and founding member of two bands called Free, which was a 60s band, big, like, blues rock, English band. And their big song was All Right Now.

And then he also founded and played drums for a band called dad Company, who were just inducted into the rock and roll album. Pretty cool. And their big song was. Was Bad Company from the album Bad Company. Oh. Just in case you didn't know. And then my mom is a wonderful woman named Lorraine Kirk, and she had this amazing vintage store on Perry street in the West Village called Geminola, which, Geminola, fun fact, was a hybrid of me, Jemima, and Domino's names and our brother Greg. And Greg is my. You know, his. The reason his name is different is because he has a different biological dad than us.

But my mom kind of paid homage to him in that by making it a G. That started Javanola. And then when my dad. My dad's a musician, obviously, and he had a music publishing company, and you have to pick your name for that. And I always thought it was really funny because he chose to name it Greminola, which just must not have the same ring to it. It, like, takes this, like, cute, like, you know, portmanteau of sorts and makes it sound like a gremlin.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Nava Cavlin]

Granola is sort of the.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah, yeah, Gremlinola.

So, yeah.

Those were my parents. And the world around us was just, like. I think it's so interesting to hear you say pen. Like, oh, they just expected you to be successful artists because, like, I didn't even realize it was as simple as that. Like, they didn't expect us to be, like, you know, just, like, creative people. Like, it was like, no, you're gonna grow up and you're gonna be successful in your field. And so I really took that for granted, and I was really lucky that it did work out for me and has in so many ways. But when I first. I experienced my first, like, lull in my career five years ago, and, like, that humbling has been one of the most valuable things I have ever experienced. Not learning how to take things for granted, discovering hidden talents and passions and, like, parts of who I really am that aren't connected to who I should be in the world.

Getting to live in a city that I never thought of living in, which is Nashville and not New York or la, which is obviously an industry town of its own. But, like, I'm kind of like, yeah, sure, but not really. No, of course it is. But to me, it's like, you know, I get to live somewhere very interesting.

[Nava Cavlin]

Stick around. We'll be right back.

Okay.

[Penn Badgley]

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[Nava Cavlin]

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[Sophie Ansari]

I'm curious what hidden passions you learned about in this lull that you had five years ago.

[Lola Kirk]

Well, frankly, writing. Writing was something that I had never. I thought I was like a bad writer.

Because I couldn't do grammar. Couldn't do grammar. I never. I'm still bad at grammar.

But I had been told that I was like a good storyteller, and I always accredited that to how many martinis I'd had at whatever party. And so I was like, yeah, sure, I can talk forever, but people would listen to me when I told stories. And then Covid hit and the kind of career that I had been building for myself for the decade prior began to slowly get pulled away from me. And I think so many creative people during that time started writing because it was the way that you could express yourself safely. And.

Ultimately, it's funny to say safely because ultimately it was one of the riskiest and most unsafe things I've ever done, is start to write authentically about my life and experiences.

But that was certainly one of them. And also committing more to playing music. I'd been playing music.

Whenever I wasn't making a movie or shooting a show. And I don't know if this is similar to your experience pen, but it was like as a actress, I was treated one way. Like I'd get like flown first class to Cannes to get this made up award. And then I would fly back and take a connecting flight to Eugene, Oregon, and get picked up in like a dented RAV4 and play concerts for literally no one, like up and down the coast like no one. I had no value as a Musician other than, like, this is what I like to do. And then I had all this, like, kind of mystifying value.

As an actress. And I'm really glad that that got. It's been humbling and humiliating at times. And I think being an artist is humiliating, you know, when it's not humbling because there's so much rejection involved in it, but, like, learning the. How arbitrary that kind of value is when it's placed on you when you're doing well. Also, like something I had experienced so much as an actress is like. Or experienced so much as an actress when I was younger was this, like, she's the next big thing. And then when they realize that, like, you're not the next big thing. Yeah, they're just like, she can have a much smaller trend. Yeah, we'll put her in the honey wagon. You know, like, it's just like they. They take. I. I don't know. It's really funny to watch people invest in you and then see when they. When they stop doing that. And. And I think that there's so much infantilization that goes into the way we treat actors in the world anyway. And a lot of that is, like, by necessity. Like, they'll financially be screwed if, you know, the actor disappears and gets lost. So they send people to the bathroom with you. They have someone pick you up, they have someone get you lunch. Like, all of this stuff that makes you into this little kid again and can kind of spoil you, but I think is really there just as a reminder that, like, you.

You know, you gotta be hate. They need you. They need you to be there. And that's why it's there. It's not because of how special you are really. It's because of how important you are to the financial health of the project that you're on.

[Nava Cavlin]

In your family, Beauty was not just like a North Star, but a value system that informed everything. And within that, maybe some pressure on weight. And what really stands out to me is this story of, like, well, I want you to tell it, but the prop on the dining room table that you guys would have to stare at.

[Sophie Ansari]

So if you can tell.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, that was a new one, by the way. And Domino never holds back in telling me stories. You know, she hadn't written a book, but, like, I know a lot. I'd never heard that. I was like, what?

[Lola Kirk]

On top of all that, I think Domino was on a private debt at that point with a movie star. So. Yes. Sorry, Beth. So maybe she wasn't privy to the 10 pound replica of Fat that was the centerpiece of our dining room table, which, honestly, like, as disturbing as that is, I'm like, it's incredible. That is, like, so amazing.

[Nava Cavlin]

Do you remember when it appeared? Would you remember, like, the first time it appeared? It was just there.

[Lola Kirk]

No, I. But I remember there was humor around it. Like, it was ridiculous. I remember, like, my dad, like, throwing it once. Like it was a football or something, because it was like, football shape.

[Nava Cavlin]

Interesting.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah. But I don't know. I mean, I. I definitely went from a beauty conscious household into beauty conscious industries. And I think through that, like, for a while, I was like, God damn it. Like, I found myself in a. In an industry that just, like, mimicked the value system of this household. That. That I'm part of that value system. That was really painful for me. And then I realized, no, my family just mimicked those values. That's the world. And as I have gotten older.

And realized, oh, I don't know, I'm reading a lot of pemashodron right now. And by a lot, I mean, I have this one tiny book that's like, pemachodron for dummies.

Buddhism for the total idiot. But she talks about how, like, the desire for self improvement is a form of aggression towards ourselves. And I have such an aggressive, internalized dialogue with myself about. About my body. And I was listening to a wonderful podcast with one of the alumna from. From your show, Julia Louis Dreyfuss, and she was interviewing Bonnie Raitt. And Bonnie Raitt is a hero of mine. You know, she's so incredible. But something that she said was, like, I'm pretty enough. And I was like, oh, wait, what? Like, we don't live in a culture where anyone is like, I've had enough beauty. Like, it's like we have this constant need now more than ever to, like, not only be beautiful, but to remain beautiful forever and, like, get. Suck as much beauty as you can out of. Out of being alive to the point where I think it's really actually an ugly. An ugliness, obviously, that. That drives it. Um, but, like, beginning to shift my mindset to. And this will sound so ridiculous to people who have spent far more time being. Not vain in their lives, but, like, shifting my mindset to, like, I am put on this earth to be far more than just beautiful. Like, beautiful externally is really. Is really where I'm trying to go. Because I'm gonna. I'm only gonna get older. I'm only gonna keep weight on and wrinkle more. And if I live by an old value system. I am only gonna hate myself forever. And I'm stuck with me. So I'm really just like, it blew my mind to just be like. To really say that to myself. I am on this earth to do more than just be pretty.

[Nava Cavlin]

Well, fuck that.

[Lola Kirk]

I don't want. That's like, I can't believe how many of us, women and men too, and everyone, like, kind of have that complicit silent agreement that like, the whole point is to be pretty. It's so besides the point.

[Nava Cavlin]

I love your answer, Lola. I've been thinking about this a lot. I don't know if you've seen. There's a clip. I don't know if you saw her in the moment or there's a clip of Emma Thompson on a late night show and she's talking about what a. Like, she says it in a really funny way. I'll send it to you. But like, what a waste of time it is for a woman to worry about her body and like, how this is like, so methodically planned so that women won't prosper in other ways because they just have to spend their lives hating their bodies and obsessing over their bodies. But she says it in sort of like a, like a speech, like, don't do that. And it's so encouraging. And sometimes if I like, feel myself going down this dark rabbit hole, I'll like, find that clip and watch it. Because I love Emma Thompson. And I'm like, she's so right. It's just such a waste of time. And it diverts your energy from other things that will actually be meaningful to others, meaningful to yourself. It's just a body, you know, it's just a. It's just a vehicle to get things done.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's just so important for public facing women who are. Are powerful to be articulating that and, and not. Because ultimately I think what it comes down to is. Is conforming to a societal norm that is indeed a toxic one. And I think the pressure to do so, or the 10. That's a tension in my life that I've been working through in various forms. Do I conform or not? Do I conform to my family's values? And if I do that, then I will be separating myself from the rest of society, or do I conform to society's values? And if I do that, then I'm separating myself from my family. It's this tension between, you know, authenticity and connection that I think is so hard. And I think as an actor or any kind of performer, you know, your livelihood is largely connected to your appearance and that.

[Penn Badgley]

Speak for yourself.

[Lola Kirk]

I know. Okay, Pen, I know everyone loves you, even though you're so ugly.

Literally hideous. But a great therapist, so, so good.

But I don't know. I want to dispel that myth. I want to test it, actually, because.

As much as I worry about the way that I look, I never worry enough to really do that much about it. Like, I can never really stick to a diet. I like working out. I like doing things that are connected to me not looking as beautiful as other people. For pastimes. I won't name those aloud, but I'm sure anyone can guess what those are. And I know that if I started getting a little bit of Botox or a little bit of that, that I would just get on the. You know, that. The rabbit wheel.

[Nava Cavlin]

The hamster wheel.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, the hamster wheel.

[Lola Kirk]

And I do think for me, and I think for a lot of people, it's a bandage on a bullet wound. I think getting to know ourselves better and appreciating.

You know, who we really are in a more authentic way is gonna be a far more worthwhile investment than constantly trying to just erase who we really are a little bit at a time.

So that. And that's. I think, you know, that's what I want to do in every facet of what I do, whether I'm making music or I'm writing or I'm acting, and that's hard. I've just done two movies in a row, and I'll see the monitor, and I'm like, oh, who's that? I mean, I just played a principal.

In a movie of, like, an alternative school, which was not much unlike the school I went to, but an alternative school back in the 90s. And it was, like, the first time that I was, like, a senior member of the cast. Like, normally I'm the youngest everywhere I go, even though I'm 35.

And it was really interesting to be like, oh, I look like I'm older than these people. It's my kind of responsibility and duty to be mature and kind of guide younger actors.

[Penn Badgley]

You weren't the baby.

[Lola Kirk]

I wasn't the baby. I still.

[Penn Badgley]

And how did that feel?

[Lola Kirk]

You know, for the most part, it felt awesome. And they were awesome, awesome kids. And a lot of them weren't kids. You know, they're like 21, but that's still a kid.

[Penn Badgley]

That's a kid.

[Lola Kirk]

That's a kid. That's a kid. But not technically kids.

And, and humbling. And like seeing the 90s were such a dowdy period in general for fashion. I love it. But it, like, you know, it's a lot of turtlenecks and loose fitting things and it, it, it's not like.

I, I mean, I don't know, obviously there's harrow in cheek and all that, all that complicated, those complicated trends as well. But I wasn't like, thrilled, I wasn't like, this is the most beautiful I've ever looked. And I think also as you get older as an actress, especially.

The ingenue, no longer being an ingenue is a really interesting thing. Like the archetypes that are available to you as a woman.

And aging out of certain ones of those and trying to find the power in that instead of just grieving it.

[Nava Cavlin]

Lola. This also makes me think of an Internet. I'm sorry, I keep referencing the Internet, random things I see on the Internet, but that's been going around that I really like. Which is our only two options, growing old or growing weird. And I feel like that's really helpful. Like when I feel tempted to do a cosmetic procedure or anything, I'm like, growing old or growing weird. Which one? I sometimes have a hard time watching shows because the women's faces look so weird to me that I can't. And I'm like, is that bad? Is that good? Is that a natural reaction? But. And when I do see an actress in her 40s, 50s and older who has lines on her face, I feel relieved and refreshed. And so I'm grateful to the women who are resisting the pressure. And I understand not resisting that pressure, especially if you're in the industry. I'm not judging them, but when the faces start to get really weird, I have a hard time just looking at it and enjoying it.

[Lola Kirk]

Well, I just think that the issue is that we live in a society that doesn't value wisdom or maturity. We live in a society that has made youth into a commodity and values that above all else. And being young, I mean, it's hard.

Being young breaks my heart. Like something about working with teenagers just now, or people playing teenagers, and there were some actual teenagers there. Like.

It reminded me so much of my experience as a teenager, which was like, you know, you think you know everything, but everything you know is kind of terrifying. And wanting to be older, but also being so sad to leave your childhood behind. I mean, I, I wanted to be old and young at once as a teenager, and it was. And I. And you are old and young at once. And That's a really scary place to be. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You speak about that moment from what I can recall, where you're. You're having a New Year's, like, a resort in India with your family, and everybody's asleep but you and your father, and you're peering out at the dark ocean and you're trying to make it special, and you have this feeling that you probably couldn't name at the time, but you're naming, in retrospect that you felt some kind of anxiety about your waning youth. How old was that? Was that 12 or 14?

[Lola Kirk]

I think I was 12 or 13 in that part of the book. And I'm so glad that that part is stuck with you, because that's one of. That was. That's one of the less flashy moments, I think, of the book. But I think it is an experience that a lot of people have or I imagine to some degree. And I'm like. And there's definitely, like, a Russian word for just, like. Don't add, like.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, yeah, we have 13 words for that. Yeah, we have a word for that at 11. We have a word for that at 12. We have a word for that at. You know, like, we have a word for that when it's happening in the winter. We have a word for that when it's happening in the summer, in the morning.

Okay. There are a few. I feel like, you know, there are a few stories we'd planned on asking, you know. I don't know how much you feel like you want to retell them here, because they're in the book and there is this matter of, like, well, if it's there, go read the book.

Maybe not everybody's super happy about the way they're represented or whatever.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

But you do have one that I think remains pretty warm.

You talk about being babysat by Liv Tyler, you know.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Possibly around when.

[Lola Kirk]

During.

[Penn Badgley]

She was shooting Lord of the Rings. I don't know if that part's accurate.

[Lola Kirk]

She was literally shooting Lord of the Rings. She was our neighbor across the street.

And I guess or when she was back from New Zealand. But for whatever reason, she really liked us and liked us enough to hang out with us. And you know what? She was so special to me as a kid. Talk about an actress representing something, you know, like, representing body positivity or whatever. But, like, I've always had. I've never had a flat stomach a day in my life.

[Nava Cavlin]

Same guilty.

[Lola Kirk]

Never once. Even when I was, like, so heartbroken and, like, thin in every other place of my Body. I still just had, like, I just didn't. I'm beginning to wonder if it's because my legs are, like, so long and my torso is really short that, like, it just, like, won't work out for me. But anyway, Liv used to do this thing that. Which I've never said out loud, but she used. We had this game called Big Bellies of the World Unite. And she would, like, lift her shirt and I would lift mine, and we'd like, run full speed ahead and then, like, rub our feathers together.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, that's cute.

[Lola Kirk]

And it was really cute. And it made me feel, like, so cool. And I need to remember that now all the time. Maybe I have told that story before. I don't know. Maybe it's even in the book. I forget so much.

[Sophie Ansari]

I don't think it is.

[Penn Badgley]

I forget you're getting old.

[Nava Cavlin]

That's so endearing.

[Lola Kirk]

I know I'd really forget things, but, yeah, she was a really positive influence on me, especially at that time.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm curious in your process. The book is so good. I really love it.

[Lola Kirk]

You're incredible writing. Thank you.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I was curious how you went about mining your own memories for the writing process. Like, did you interview any of your family members to gather intel, or was it just all you?

[Lola Kirk]

I did not interview anyone, which I think that could be a fun, like, follow up. Because one of the fallouts of this book, and my sisters were actually incredible about it. But there were other people that were very much like, that's not my experience of what happened. Which definitely.

I was like, right, well, because it's my book, not your book, so it makes sense. You have a different experience.

And it's not a biography, it's a memoir. So it's a lot about memory.

And that's a very subjective thing. But a lot of the stories that ended up in the book were the kind of flag pole tent poles of what I felt like was my identity. Cause that's what I think the book is ultimately very much about. It's about working through, sifting through larger than life personalities and finding your authentic identity and an authentic self.

So these were the stories I was already kind of just like telling over and over again and boring anyone that had heard them the first time. But they were stories that were already quite narratively formed in my head.

And then there were some where my editor would be like, you need to write about this, otherwise no one's going to care about your book. And I was like, really?

So then I would have to kind of, you know, Pull something out of my ass there. No, but I think that I'm. I mean, I'm always so nauseated when actors are like, you know, I'm a storyteller. But I am a storyteller. That's what I do. And I'm already thinking quite narratively about things. And I think that, you know, you live a story every single day if you know where to look. It's just a beginning, middle, and an end. And hopefully there's a punchline. I love a punchline.

[Sophie Ansari]

That's so true. I love. I'm gonna start thinking about my life that way. Every day is a story.

[Lola Kirk]

Yes.

[Nava Cavlin]

That's so nice.

[Sophie Ansari]

Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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[Lola Kirk]

Hello, I'm Gretchen Rubin. And I'm Lori Gottlieb. We're two friends, one a happiness researcher and the other a therapist, and we are here to tackle the problems of everyday life with all of you, from big issues to small. We'll share advice and fresh perspectives, and we'll also highlight responses from you, our listeners, to the questions we discuss. Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or just something you've always wondered about, we'll talk it through the since you asked podcast from Lemonada media premieres on September 23rd. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Penn Badgley]

Something you were saying earlier, Lola, after I'd remarked about how many people you know, how even what you know, I an actor who'd been acting professionally for quite a while when I met your sister and met your family, I wasn't aware, you know, until kind of years in, I was like, wow, this family's really not just connected. What I think is really interesting about your experience and what you're writing about, which might have some of this universal, like accessibility in its specificity is, you know, you were just talking about your parents being among an entire set of actual rock stars. And let's be clear, these were the rock stars you're thinking of. They were people like Mick Jagger and David Bowie. Your father as a drummer was touring with Led Zeppelin and like the biggest bands of the day, that time of the. Of the 60s, 70s and 80s. So that by the 90s, literally the biggest icons of Western culture are parents. And a lot of them are living in New York and London. Just by facet of that, let's just be practical and sociological about it, right? So you actually happen to have this very, very narrow experience of being a family, like, alongside them, seeing their kids grow up and naturally be inclined towards the arts, like the Julian Casablancas thing, you know, total, total trust fund kid. And then also becomes one of the icons of an era which represents the opposite of that. You know what I mean? Like the Strokes being this sort of grunge man. It's like. Yeah, well.

Easy for them to say, right? There was something along those lines because it's also such a legitimate artist and.

Sort of literary, almost icon of the times. So I'm just thinking that when you describe the pressures that you felt and which I know somewhat intimately because of the way your sisters felt them, specifically around body image, what I'm thinking is that most people imagine if they had these things, the money, the fame and the body, that they would be happier. And you grew up alongside all these families that actually not only had those things, they were those people. They were literally those people which represented those values to almost the world. Like a lot of them. And so the chaos in these families, yours was no exception, you know, I mean, like in this small circle of families, seems like chaos was the rule, you know, and what you see is how these values that you're saying that we need to free ourselves from, I mean, it's not even like your parents or these people. It's like without realizing it, this is where this was the transition where Hollywood and music, modern art, believed itself to be in a way, like anti establishment and bohemian and rebellious and realizing, ah, we actually represent the same old values, just with a leather jacket on and. Sure, right. So you're like a part of a generation of like, growing. We are actually growing out of that because we're seeing what it does to people. And significantly so all this kind of bringing it down into some specificity here with you and your family, if I may. I mean, you speak about it very openly in the book. You're the only one of your sisters to not like, have an eating disorder to the point of needing and wanting, you know, rehabilitation of a kind. And you do. And the same way that you are not. You're sort of like the American of the family. And, you know, probably the quickest to crack a joke or at least laugh at that joke, too.

You know, because of how British the rest of your family is.

I wonder if you can think, like, what are some of the circumstances you had.

Being a bit younger? Like, what are some of the. What are some of the things you can attribute that to? Like, maybe not quite getting the. Is it maybe not getting the full weight of the same hammer from your parents? Cause you were the baby, or was it just certain qualities you had, you.

[Nava Cavlin]

Know, or seeing what your sisters went through?

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah. I mean, I think so much of it was the gift of having sisters who.

I mean, ran boldly into the fire and being like, well, I don't want to get burned like that. And I think that, like many people who grew up in chaos and dysfunction, I'm really good at knowing how other people should live their lives. That's just, like, a gift I have. They only did this. And I think watching my sisters, like, struggle so much really.

Honed that for me. And I don't know who I would have been if I didn't have them.

In a way, I'm like. The rebellion was almost selfless as an act. It was like an act of love for me to witness.

So I think that there's that nurturing part of it. And also, I don't know, I think that there's nature, too. I also think having such a big age gap between me and my closest sibling.

Meant that I had a lot more friends. I made families of friends. And my friends, for the most part, were quite sensible young people.

So I. And I gravitated towards them. I mean, don't get me wrong. I love a friend with, like, severe mental illness. I think that they're fabulous as well. And, yeah, so. So there's always that. But. But I also balance that with some really amazing, strong.

Strong women. And especially as I get older, I find myself surrounded by people like that, too.

[Sophie Ansari]

We always ask our guests, what were their first experiences around love and heartbreak? Your first crush or infatuation?

[Lola Kirk]

Well, apropos of Julian Casablancas. And I loved the way that you talked about him just now, Pen. And I did want to say that, yes, Julian Kasblancas. I think his dad owned img or one of the biggest modeling agencies in America. The world.

But there is this thing, I think that a lot of artists.

Have independent wealth outside of art in order to make their art. And I think that rebellion in so Much art can kind of come from the safety of knowing that you might be okay. You push some boundaries. And I know there's so many amazing artists who did not come from that. But. But anyway, I saw the music video for last night on TV when I was 10 years old, and it's so funny. I'm. Actually. This is not planned, but I'm at my mother's house with all my stuff. I was so in love. And then one night, Domino went out, and she got. She saw the Strokes, and she got them to sign this inspired thing for me. So awesome. Big sister moment. And I think that's just lying on your desk.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's not spraying or anything.

[Lola Kirk]

I'm literally staring at it. There's a really weird.

[Sophie Ansari]

Touching it with your fingers.

[Lola Kirk]

I know. I just. It's my. Yeah.

[Nava Cavlin]

Sophie's like, please frame it, Lola. Please frame it.

[Sophie Ansari]

So funny to me. She's like, oh, this whole thing.

It'S.

[Lola Kirk]

In, like, a weird plastic sleeve with, like, some other sweet photos. And then other boys, I. I liked. Oh, my. I mean, well, Heath Ledger and Julian Casablancas. Just, like, I. I knew love from them. Like, I would wake up, think of them.

[Nava Cavlin]

Did you meet them yourself?

[Lola Kirk]

I never met Heath Ledger, unfortunately. But I did get to meet Julian Casablancas one night backstage at Irving Plaza because he was my friend's uncle, and I couldn't even believe that. Like, how does that make sense? He's like, he's my boyfriend, but he's your uncle. Like, what?

So that was really cool. And then Heath Ledger. I just loved. I loved A Knight's Tale. I had the DVD booklet, like, taped into my. My locker.

Yeah. And then I have, like, some actual boyfriends. I mean, the truth is, I've had a boyfriend since I was 12. They're just a different boyfriend. Like, I just kind of.

Find new boy. I always say the best way to get a boyfriend is to already have one.

Everyone loves it when I say that, too.

So I'm changed. I'm a changed woman.

[Nava Cavlin]

Lola, are you getting married?

[Lola Kirk]

I am getting married.

[Nava Cavlin]

Oh, congratulations. That's so exciting.

[Lola Kirk]

Thank you.

[Penn Badgley]

The only reason I'm not saying congratulations is because I already have. I already knew that.

[Lola Kirk]

Congratulations.

[Sophie Ansari]

I was kind of expecting Penn to be, like, really?

[Lola Kirk]

He's never mentioned it? No. It's old news. Old news.

[Nava Cavlin]

Okay. One other question we ask everyone, and then we're going to fully talk about your career, is to share a particularly, like, embarrassing or cringy memory from adolescence.

[Lola Kirk]

Every single one. I don't have a single memory of My adolescence, when I look back and go, you know what? That was great. Like, it's all cringe. Oh, God. But a particularly cringy memory. This might be, like, a little bit, like, more sad. But I've always wanted to. I don't believe I actually possess style, like, fashion style. I think that I just look at other people with style, and if I like them or what their effect on the world, I'll just try and emulate that. And this started very young with, like, real people I knew and then also would kind of go into. Go into, like, movie stars. And I loved this movie with Julie Christie in it called Darling, which in retrospect is so funny because it's about a girl who's just, like, a pompous brat. Like, she is, like, an awful person. Like, but I thought she was just, like, the height of glamour and beauty. And she was a 1960s model and actress in the movie. And she wore a lot of, like, mod style clothing. So I found what I thought was, like, a mod style dress to wear to school. And I was like, how else can I kind of merge my personality with hers? And I noticed that she had a fish in the movie. So I went during all my free periods because we had no grades and we had free periods and could do whatever we wanted to every pet shop in Brooklyn looking for a goldfish and finding none. I settled on a siamese fighting fish that I decorated the tank. And I walked back to school thinking I looked just incredible. And the group of, like, cool kids who I really, really, really wanted to like me, who just, like, would never, ever like me. There was no chance.

Saw me coming, and they had heard that I had bought a fish. And I don't know. World Trap. We're the pet store owner. Yeah, the pet store owner paged them. You were on your way back? No, like, someone, like, someone who saw me, like, approaching the school was like, they're waiting for you. And I was like, who? What? And I get there, and all the, like, hot stoner freaks charged at me. And the one.

Grabbed my little carrier tank and he took my Siamese fighting fish, which I had named Darling, out, and he swallowed the fish in front of me. So then I took the water from the tank and I dumped it on his head, which he responded to by taking a fucking Coke slushie. Like, a nearby random Coke slushie and pouring it all over my stomach. Goodness. I know. It was crazy. It was insane.

[Nava Cavlin]

That is insane.

[Lola Kirk]

And then. And I can't believe it happened. And the best. The Way that this resolves is that he asked me to go to prom with him a couple weeks later. So I was promised. And then this should segue into my career quite well. Many years later, when I was on a TV on Mozart in the Jungle TV show, it won a Golden Globe for best comedy or whatever. And we didn't think we were gonna win, so I had taken off. Actually my shoe had broken, so I had taken off my shoes and we didn't think we were gonna win, so I was like, this is fine. And we did. And I like go up on stage barefoot and I like went on Instagram the next day and the guy had like posted something that was like, hometown girl makes good. And it was just a picture of my. It was like a close up shot of my bare feet. He's an artist. It's all making sense on the stage. So, yeah, so that it was cringe and it was all. But I think the cringiest part to me about that, not the heinous bullying, but is just like. And maybe it's a good thing, but like my full commitment to try and be like someone I'm not.

Which I guess has served me well as an actress in a lot of ways, but can be just like, when will I just like, maybe all these people that we're drawn to really hold. Hold things about us too, that are true.

[Nava Cavlin]

Well, speaking of Mozart in the Jungle, incredible show. If anyone hasn't seen seen it, I think it's still on Prime. It's. It's really wonderful. You're. You're amazing in it. Can you tell us a little bit about it? And what was it your first time being number one on the call sheet?

[Lola Kirk]

It was actually number two. I'm trying to think, when have I been number one?

[Nava Cavlin]

By screen time, it should have been you. But was it the guy, Was it the conductor, the composer?

[Lola Kirk]

Gael? Oh, no, Gael. Gael was number one.

I. I think I was number two. I don't know. We had so many amazing legends in that show. Bernadette Peters and Malcolm McDowell.

[Nava Cavlin]

Well, as an audience member, I thought of you as the star for sure.

[Lola Kirk]

I was super. That's, you know, all that matters.

[Penn Badgley]

As an actor in the biz. I knew you weren't number one just because of that.

I actually, I thought I'm like, well, maybe I'm wrong. So I let her ask.

[Nava Cavlin]

But.

[Lola Kirk]

No, I was not number one. But yeah, that show, that show was so funny. I mean, it's amazing to think that at the time that that show came out, like streaming was just like, what?

[Nava Cavlin]

That was the first show I ever saw on Prime.

[Lola Kirk]

It just started.

[Nava Cavlin]

Yeah, I got a Prime membership to watch it.

[Lola Kirk]

Thanks. I mean, we were just like the other show that wasn't transparent.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, basically. Yeah, that's true.

[Nava Cavlin]

Yeah. What was it like? What was that show like for you? Sort of set in the music world. What was that experience for you?

[Penn Badgley]

What was it like? Learning oboe.

[Lola Kirk]

Hilarious. Learning oboe was hilarious. So I played an oboist, and the show was about, like. Well, it was pitched originally as, like, the CD Underbelly of Classical Music, because it was based on a memoir of the same name by an oboist named Blair Tyndall, who unfortunately passed away. But it was interesting to me because I had never really listened to classical music. I just kind of thought that that's what old people listen to. My dentist, because that was what he always. Which, honestly, I never realized how much I associated classical music with getting my teeth drilled. But I did, until we did that show. And it was kind of funny because my character, she's obsessed by classical music. She loves classical music, but that was not my relationship to classical music. And as an actor, I think I've heard it called all sorts of different things, but as ifs. Like, I would have to act as if when I was being kind of enraptured by a beautiful piece by, you know, Sibelius or something, I would be like, I'm listening to Led Zeppelin right now for the first time. Or just kind of asking about things that had that effect on me. That said, now I can't listen. I'm really exclusively listening to wordless music. Classical. I do like opera a lot, and I like a lot of jazz. I've moved away from listening to songs, which is so weird because I write songs all the time, and that's probably why. But.

That show was incredible. It changed my life. We got to shoot in New York, in Mexico City, in Venice, Italy, and in Tokyo. And every year, I would just. It was crazy.

[Penn Badgley]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like that was when the few streamers that were really hitting it big, they were like, either, you know, if it was Netflix, for instance, they're like, we're so far from actually making a profit. We can just spend as much money as we want now because it's like, nobody's caught on here totally. And then in the case of Amazon, it's like, we sell the TVs and the phones they watch on and everything else. We don't even. There's no money. We're trying to make from this, like, so they were just sort of, like, willing to, for the sake of the production value of the show, to just say, this is what we make. Right. They just kind of, like, let the creators.

[Lola Kirk]

The whim of the creators.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a special time. It seemed like that show is among a very small class where it really had that. It was just like, damn, what are they doing now? Whoa. They're going, whoa.

[Lola Kirk]

Hey. Yeah. With like, 200 person orchestras and in every city.

No, it was so special. And then it so sadly got canceled before its fifth season. And I remember it being like, yeah, they just want to make, like, more action content was. Was the reply. And I'm sure that that actually does make money instead of niche shows about, you know, wacky classical musicians, so. Can't blame him. But, no, I love that show. I love that show. And. And I. I can't believe I got to be a part of something like that. I mean, it feels. I. I don't know if you had this experience, Pen, when you're like, you know, going from Gossip Girl and then not, you know, having a show until you. And you're just like, oh, there's like an existential crisis when your life has been defined by. By one project that you've been making for so long. That ensued, at least for me.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's. Yeah. Like, I. I, you know, had some kind of.

Significant transformation. Then, you know, I became a Baha'. I stopped drinking. I. All kinds of, you know.

[Lola Kirk]

Okay, so you know exactly what I'm talking. You're like, yeah, no, I don't know. I mean, I'm hail high and stop drinking. But.

[Nava Cavlin]

Is that why you had twins? I started transition out of you.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah, exactly.

[Penn Badgley]

Actually, you know what? Towards the tail end of that is when I met your sister. It's when I met Domino.

[Lola Kirk]

Wow.

[Penn Badgley]

And I would. And actually. And I got married. So all those things happened. All those things, yeah.

[Lola Kirk]

Very much. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

No, well, one. Yeah. That happens because you're just, you know.

As an actor, you can't nobody. It's very hard to articulate, I suppose, as I'm demonstrating now, just how much you become identified with something that in some ways you were, like, not responsible for at all, you know?

[Lola Kirk]

Absolutely.

[Penn Badgley]

You're like, I didn't write it. I didn't direct it. I didn't edit it. I didn't score it. I didn't dress myself. I mean, I dressed myself, but I didn't, you know, like, I wasn't the One. Buying the clothes, choosing why would people dress me?

[Lola Kirk]

I just.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. It's a strange thing. So I guess, you know, but you actually have had most of your experience in film, which is.

In some ways, notably different. And, you know, you came up through some really significant supporting roles, like, for instance in Gone Girl. Wait, is that what it's called?

[Nava Cavlin]

Yeah.

[Lola Kirk]

Gone Girl. Yeah.

[Nava Cavlin]

Detestable character in Gone Girl among a bunch of dancers. Yeah. It's amazing.

[Lola Kirk]

Yes, I know. It is. I like hearing that, because I feel, you know, just, like, so perfect that I can't imagine that anyone would ever.

[Nava Cavlin]

Find me just the character, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

[Lola Kirk]

But I think that the reason. That role. I mean, I love that role, but I think that you kind of want to see Amy Dunne, the character that Rosamund pike plays so incredibly in Gone Girl, you know, get hers.

[Penn Badgley]

That's true.

[Lola Kirk]

Actually.

[Penn Badgley]

I really liked your character. I don't recall. It's funny. Now I'm remembering that she's meant to be detestable, but that's not the way I remembered it. I remember her being, like, spunky little, you know.

[Nava Cavlin]

Well, I feel like in the. In the point in the movie where you come. Where you are introduced, we don't know if she's, like, a beaten wife or evil. Like, it's not decided yet. So we're sympathizing with her because we think she's, like, running away from relationship, and you steal all her stuff and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Spoilers for Gone Girls greatest twist of all time.

[Nava Cavlin]

Ruin if you.

[Penn Badgley]

Also. I'm Gossip Girl. Don't know if you know that.

[Sophie Ansari]

Second grade.

[Lola Kirk]

What else we got?

[Penn Badgley]

First of all, what else we got?

[Lola Kirk]

It's so crazy being, like, related to the act, too. Gossip. I know.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's amazing that he's not just a.

[Nava Cavlin]

Character in the show.

[Lola Kirk]

No, no, no. He's Gossip Twins. Did you know you were Gossip Girl the whole time?

[Penn Badgley]

No. No, no, no, no.

[Lola Kirk]

Not at all.

[Penn Badgley]

No. In fact, probably most people who are hearing this have already heard this, because it's been asked a few times on this show. No, it's okay. It's okay. Everybody wants to know. You know, Julie Louis Dreyfus actually asked this question, too. She was like, did you know the whole time? Matthew McConaughey asked it as well. That was his first question right off the bat, actually. As well as Conan O'. Brien. I just want to say no. Matthew McConaughey definitely had no idea who I was. Like, not a clue.

[Lola Kirk]

Matthew McConaughey, great actor, better author. Just gonna go Ahead and say it right now.

[Penn Badgley]

Green lights, green lights, Green lights everywhere.

[Lola Kirk]

Oh, my God.

[Nava Cavlin]

So funny. Well, we have to talk about sinners. Do you want to talk about Mistress? I'm just thinking about.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, I wanted to ask about Mistress America because it was such a. I mean, it's such a. It's such a. Like such a win for you. You know what I mean? And it's such a good film and such a great performance and you're really the star of that. And probably not number one, but, you know, I was definitely not number one on that either.

[Lola Kirk]

Maybe I was. No, no, no.

[Penn Badgley]

I think you must have been. You must have been. No, probably Greta.

[Lola Kirk]

I might have. I don't know. We'll have to dig up a call sheet.

[Penn Badgley]

But you were working with Noah as he's reaching the pinnacle of, you know, filmmaking. Cool and prestige at that point. And as well as Greta, you know, she's on her way.

[Lola Kirk]

Who was just at the very beginning of her own kind of ascent.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And so I'm just curious, like, what was that? So first when you read the script and then as you. What was the audition process like? And that must have been.

[Lola Kirk]

Well, I didn't get a script until I got the job. They were. So it was Doug Abel who cast me in that and Doug had kind of. Doug has, like, is responsible for my career. Doug is the casting director who flew me out to LA for a screen test when I was 11. And then when I quit biz after.

[Penn Badgley]

He's that guy?

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You're kidding me. The same casting director?

[Lola Kirk]

Yes.

[Penn Badgley]

Wow.

[Lola Kirk]

And then when I started acting again at the end of college, he brought me in to audition for that and he cast me in Mozart in the Jungle as well. So.

[Penn Badgley]

What on earth? Wow, that's great. I want to know.

[Lola Kirk]

Casting director. Like that. He's still the creative director at the Vineyard Theater, but he's so awesome. And I got brought in for top secret project dummy sides, which maybe people who listen to this are familiar with the term, but it means they don't give you actual sides from the script, they give you something else. And I auditioned, I think about 11 times. The final audition was a read through of the script in Greta and Noah's apartment with the DP Sam Levy. And that was an audition? Yes, it was an audition. Stop.

And it was one of my first movies and certainly my first time being close to number one on the call sheet. And Noah, I don't know if it's as famous as David Fincher's proclivity for this. But Noah does, like, 100 takes of everything, whether it's your hand, it's a pickup of your hand grabbing some pasta or whatever. So in a lot of ways, I was so grateful to have that be my first experience, because it just, like, trained me to be like, I just do 100 takes of every single thing. And it was really fun to have the experience of doing that, too, because you really got to know a scene. And.

That movie was intentionally made for a smaller budget. We had a really small crew. The DP did my makeup, and the.

[Penn Badgley]

Makeup was that so you could take the time.

[Lola Kirk]

It was so we had more time. And the DP did my makeup also, because I think that there was a sense that, you know, that was a superfluous cost and look. I love all of the people I know in hair and makeup on tv, there are some incredibly talented people who do. Who work in that space. But I do miss the natural skin and the natural look that classified a lot of earlier films. And I think that this is something that's weird. Even on red carpets. I mean, I look at pictures of, like, Sissy Spacek on the red carpet, the 80s, getting her Oscar, and she looks like she tried to look good, and she does, because she just is beautiful. But it's like the cottage industry of, like, celebrity styling and hair and makeup.

[Penn Badgley]

Wild.

[Lola Kirk]

You know, the pre. Pre Awards colonic was just like, so besides the point. I don't know.

[Penn Badgley]

I mean, until you try it. It sounds crazy, but.

[Lola Kirk]

I know, I know, I know. I mean, I. I get a colonic before I wake up every day.

[Penn Badgley]

So there's a team that comes in.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah, yeah. There's a tube. I don't even see who those my masks on.

[Sophie Ansari]

We just had Lily Reinhart on the show who was in Riverdale, and she said starting in, like, season three of Riverdale, she started doing her own makeup because she felt like her character doesn't get her makeup done, so she's just like, she shouldn't look like she's just gotten her hair and makeup done.

[Nava Cavlin]

Yeah. Which I thought was really cool.

[Lola Kirk]

I mean, it's all part of that beauty industrial complex that I think we were talking about a little bit it earlier. But, like, the way that people. I mean, people look crazy. People, like, just woke up, and they have that, like, crimp curl that. I know how I do it, you know, so I'm like, you didn't just wake up.

But, yeah, that was an incredible experience. And I can't believe now that, like, Greta, who had Wrote and starred in that movie was, like, younger than I am now. Like, I hate thinking about that.

[Nava Cavlin]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Lola Kirk]

Makes me really so cool.

[Nava Cavlin]

Let's talk about sinners. How did you come on Ryan Coogler's, like, radar? How did you get. Tell us about, like, the audition process, how you got the part. And then I'm also really curious about the music, like, the large musical numbers. If you could, like, walk us how through how those were. They're incredible.

[Lola Kirk]

So that's another casting director who's been really wonderful to me, Francine Mazler. I love her so much. And she. I got an audition from her. It did not say what it was for.

There was one scene, and it was a scene that was actually in the movie, but was ultimately cut from the movie. That was quite a racially charged scene. And it was just like, my God, as an actor, like, to get a job, you have to go and say a bunch of stuff. Like, really stuff you'd never say in real life. And.

This is now in the age of. What a lot of actors will know about is the age of the self tape. And I know some people really like them. Personally, I have never gotten a job off of self tape. I'm much better in a room, interacting. I lay on the charm, blah, blah, blah. So I asked. I was like, can I please audition for this over zoom with one of the casting associates. And I happened to be making my debut at the Grand Ole Opry that night. And I was really nervous. It came in the night before and.

We did the scene. And then the casting associate was like, oh, and you sing, right? And I was like, yes, I'm actually, like, making my debut at the Grand Ole Opry tonight. And she happened to be from Nashville and she had grown up next door to one of the guys who's in the house band for 30 years at the Opry. And I was like, oh, that's a weird little sign. And they sent, there's a music video of mine for a song called All My Exes Live in la, where I get. I strip down while walking down the street. It's. It's a really fun music video and it's shot in one take. But I was like, do you want me to sing for you now? And they were like, no, no, we're just going to send that music video of yours. Great.

Oh, that one. Okay. Yeah, you send that one. Got the part we shot in New Orleans for a very long time. Ludwig Goranson and his wife, who was one of the music producers on the movie, Serena had this. This incredible church recording studio. So whenever I wasn't shooting, I was like, in the church recording studio. It was incredible. I mean, the amount of times we recorded the two songs I sang or the three songs I sang. Cause I sang on Rocky Road, Dublin as well. It was like, can we come in and do it this way? Can we come in and do it that way? We're always recording it. And I think the take that we ended up using for Go, Lassie Go was in fact, the live take that we shot as the sun was rising in that scene. So after all that. But it was a great tactic, you know, like, learn the song, know it really well. It's not unlike that, you know, Fincher Bound Back thing where it's like, you do it so many times that you stop being nervous about it, and you just. You relax into it in a certain way and some real instincts get to come out. So my best friend happened to be getting married, and it was the night that we were shooting. I was meant to be, like, the maid of honor or whatever. And they changed the schedule so that we were shooting the big outdoor crazy vampire dance scene on the night of her wedding. And I was just, like, so sad. But also just like, this is incredible. You know, Like, I. But I'm missing my best friend's wedding. And, like, the one kind of silver lining, or one of the many silver linings was like, I spent that entire night next to shirtless Michael B. Jordan.

I mean, this is.

[Penn Badgley]

I thought it was gonna be something like. But my friend was able to, you know, fill in the blank. No, just about.

[Lola Kirk]

She's fine. Yeah, that was really funny. I was just like, you know. You know, the old man upstairs. I was like, this is hilarious. Like, yeah, you know, compensation.

[Nava Cavlin]

That's great.

[Penn Badgley]

I was imagining that there might have been some kind of triumvirate between. Well, I wasn't thinking about. About the musical directors of the thing, but I was thinking of. There must have been certainly getting this thing off the ground. But before you were involved, there must have been this kind of trio of Ryan Coogler and the two Michael B. Jordans. No, I just mean Michael B. Jordan and Autumn Derald. Is that how you say your last name? So Autumn Derald is the cinematographer. Ryan Coogler, director, obviously. Michael B. Jordan, the star, as the two twins. This is such a.

Visually and specifically a cinematically stunning film because it was shot on 70 millimeter. Right. For IMAX.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And I'm telling you, some of these shots are like, they're among, undoubtedly, to me, the most beautiful in all of cinema. It's, like, striking. Really. Really striking stuff. What was it like being on a set where you had people who had crafted a vision together who. You know, that rare kind of time where you have the time and money to do it the way that it needs to be done? Because they've kind of demonstrated it in the other ones. You know, they've kind of been like, we've given you your popcorn. Now we're gonna. Now we're gonna. We're still gonna give you popcorn, but it's gonna be laced with something, you know, like. What did that feel like?

[Lola Kirk]

It felt like a lot of downtime.

[Penn Badgley]

That makes sense.

[Lola Kirk]

A lot of. But you couldn't quite lie down because you have your hair, like, the tightest.

[Penn Badgley]

Of course. Of course. You just never know what's.

[Lola Kirk]

You never know when you're needed. Also, I love Louisiana and New Orleans, but it's very funny that they shoot movies there in the summertime because you can't shoot, like, half the time because of lightning and the union rules around lightning. So we would show up and we were shooting nights, like, so much of it. So you'd start at, like, you know, 4pm and then you'd finish as soon as the sun rose, even later. And, like, you just would wait all night and then be like, yeah, well, we've been getting lightning every 20 minutes, so we're not shooting tonight. And thank God they had the budget to continue on and get what they really needed to do, because I think Ryan had such a specific vision for what he wanted. And Autumn is a genius. That was my second time working with her, Jemima, and I actually did a movie with her called Untogether, and I've never looked better in a movie than when she shot me. So I love working with Autumn. I think she's so talented.

[Nava Cavlin]

Lola, we've referenced your music throughout this conversation, but I am curious. You're a British New Yorker. What prompted your desire to be in country?

[Lola Kirk]

Well, I think it's not.

[Penn Badgley]

It's a country, isn't it?

[Lola Kirk]

It's a country, right? No, it's. I think it's not unconnected to my kind of desire to belong to something, I think. Well, first of all, if I could have been punk, I would have, but I'm not cool enough. I mean, they just did not like me. They ate my fish as a kid, you know, like, the punks just never in country, I qualify as cool, which I really appreciate. But also, I think it's a lot about storytelling. Country music is storytelling at its finest, at its most succinct, and when it's done well, at its most, like, heartbreaking, I really, really love that. And there's a lot of humor in country, too. So the ability to both be funny and heartbreaking is just, like, one of my favorite things in any art form.

And I think there was also this kind of, like, lure of three chords and the truth, which is harder to tell. But three chords are easier to play than all of the chords I would have to in another genre. And I always love the. I think that the archetype of the women in country is just so dynamic, even though there's obviously a lot of other things that would be more kind of stereotypical. But, like, it's a lot of grit and glamour for women. They get to be, you know, tough and tender and mothers and also, like, you know, glamorous. So there's so many things I love about country music, but I'm definitely moving away from that genre. I think for a while I really was like, no, I want to make country music because I really, again, I wanted to fit in somewhere, but I didn't really fit in as, once again, my efforts to assimilate into a society, you know? No, I just want to be a member of a club that won't have me. So, yeah, and now I'm moving away from that. I want to be a member of my own club.

[Sophie Ansari]

You touch on family quite a bit in Trailblazer. I cried listening to Zeppelin 3 and the Mississippi, My sister, Elvis, and me, that one, too, which I wasn't expecting, but it did make me tear up. But I'm curious what themes you're exploring currently in your songwriting.

[Lola Kirk]

Thank you for listening to my album. That means so much to me, by the way. And I'm so grateful that those songs connect with you because those are some of my favorite songs on the record, too. That record is a lot more about family. I wrote it at the same time as I wrote Wild West Village.

[Penn Badgley]

I didn't find a track about me, though. I just thought, like, this guy looks like my therapist. I figured it would be in there.

[Nava Cavlin]

No one sees it coming.

[Lola Kirk]

Yeah, I think in a way.

I want to have exhausted songs about family because, you know, I don't want to be the girl that's just like, always writing about that. So I'm discovering new, more kind of subtle ways of writing about the things that I think and feel there. But I am really loving writing songs about, like, growing up, basically, like, Getting older, growing up in a different. In a different way, and writing songs about societal pressure. I think what bugs me a lot about music that I hear coming from people who are my age is just, like, more songs about fucking 100%.

[Sophie Ansari]

So many.

[Lola Kirk]

I'm just like, so many. But there's so many other things. And, like, to. To come back to Bonnie Ray, I'm like. Like, I don't believe any. I don't think anyone's really that.

[Nava Cavlin]

No.

[Lola Kirk]

If you were really that horny, just go. You wouldn't just always be writing about.

[Nava Cavlin]

True.

[Lola Kirk]

Also, I'm also thinking, like, sex is great, but, like, come on, there's so.

[Sophie Ansari]

It's not that everything you're saying is just.

[Nava Cavlin]

Just so good. Lola.

[Penn Badgley]

No. Even if it was the amount of time compared to the rest of life you can actually spend doing it, it's just. It's like, guys, we got to move on. We have to move on.

[Lola Kirk]

To me, I really think that sex is like water. It's the best thing ever when you want it, but when you don't, it's just boring.

[Nava Cavlin]

Totally.

[Lola Kirk]

You know, that's a good metaphor.

[Penn Badgley]

That's. That's a. That's novel. I've never. I've never heard that either. I think it works pretty well.

[Lola Kirk]

I just came up with it literally just now. But if you. I think that the people that are all singing about wanting to have sex all the time go have sex and then write about other things, because there's more to explore. And there's a song that I love on Bonnie Raitt's album Nick of Time, which is the titular song that it's all about the things that, like, I need to hear more about. It's like getting worried that you're too old to have kids. It's about seeing your parents get older and getting nervous that they're seeing you get older, too, and how scary that is. And then it's about, like, finding love all in the nick of time. So, I don't know. I want that kind of experience and that hope in music, not just, like, I'm so horny.

[Nava Cavlin]

Lola, I love that this is gonna be a strange segue, but I wanted to ask you this earlier, and I forgot, if the Kirks are wolves, what is Penn Badgley? How does he fit in?

[Penn Badgley]

I'm a therapist.

[Lola Kirk]

The therapist? Yeah. Pen is a therapist. God. I feel like you're very wise.

So I don't want to say elephant, but I feel like grasshopper.

[Nava Cavlin]

Elephant. Are grasshoppers considered wise?

[Lola Kirk]

And with that. Yeah, Grasshopper He's a wise grasshopper.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm a wise grasshopper. I prefer an elephant just because an elephant takes up more space. But you know.

[Lola Kirk]

Right, right. No, no. You definitely take a lot of space.

[Penn Badgley]

The final question is, if you go back to 12 year old look, Lola, what would you say or do?

[Lola Kirk]

If anything, go and create your life.

That's what I would say. I think creating.

[Penn Badgley]

Don't you think she would probably say, yeah, bitch, I'm doing that.

[Lola Kirk]

Did you see me in Teenage No. Oh. Or maybe I would say you get to create your life. This doesn't have to be what it is.

[Nava Cavlin]

I love that. Lola. That's really powerful.

[Sophie Ansari]

You can get Lola Kirk's new book Book Wild West Village. Not a memoir unless I win an Oscar, die tragically or score a country number one anywhere. You get your books and you can follow her online at lolakirk.

Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Cavlin and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to La Manada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app that's lemonadapremium.com. don't miss out. And as always, you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all.

[Lola Kirk]

Bye.

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium. On Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium. Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin Podcast My co host and Happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.