Madeline Brewer

Summary

Podcrushed Episode Summary: Madeline Brewer

Podcast Information:

• Title: Podcrushed
• Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kaplan, Sophie Ansari
• Guest: Madeline Brewer
• Release Date: April 30, 2025
• Description: Podcrushed explores the heartbreak, anxiety, and self-discovery of being a teenager through stories and conversations about middle school. In this episode, Madeline Brewer delves into her personal experiences and professional journey.

---

1. Introduction to Madeline Brewer

The episode opens with the hosts welcoming Madeline Brewer, known for her roles in Orange Is the New Black and The Handmaid's Tale. Penn Badgley introduces her as a pivotal figure in the fifth and final season of You and highlights her current promotion of The Handmaid's Tale.

Notable Quote:

• Penn Badgley [03:00]: "Welcome to Podcrushed. We have one very special guest for the fifth and final season of You."

---

2. Madeline’s Early Years and Middle School Memories

Madeline shares insights into her upbringing in Pitman, a small town in South Jersey. She reflects on her 12-year-old self, describing the challenges she faced, including academic struggles and her passion for theater.

Key Points:

• Academic Challenges: Madeline discusses failing math in middle school and the lack of academic motivation, stemming partly from her parents who were also not academically inclined.
• Passion for Theater: From the age of seven, she was deeply involved in theater, participating in community productions and leading roles.

Notable Quotes:

• Madeline Brewer [04:23]: "I was not academically motivated, like by any means."
• Madeline Brewer [05:19]: "I did theater since I was seven. That's what I cared about."

---

3. Family Influence and Personal Growth

Madeline talks about her father, a U.S. history teacher and singer-songwriter, and his influence on her love for history and storytelling. She also touches upon her brother Nick, highlighting their differing interests and his support of her career.

Key Points:

• Father’s Influence: Her father's passion for history and writing inspired her own interests.
• Sibling Relationship: Despite being three years apart, Madeline and her brother share a close bond, with Nick attending her shows despite it not being his interest.

Notable Quotes:

• Madeline Brewer [06:35]: "He is truly the smartest person I've ever met."
• Madeline Brewer [20:21]: "My brother is the best. He's the quietest, biggest fan."

---

4. Transition to Professional Acting

Madeline recounts her journey from community theater to landing her first major role in Orange Is the New Black. She describes the audition process, her surprise at the show's success, and the rapid rise to fame that followed.

Key Points:

• Breaking into TV: Her first TV audition was for Orange Is the New Black, which unexpectedly became a significant breakthrough.
• Industry Challenges: She highlights the competitive nature of acting, emphasizing the numerous auditions that did not lead to roles.

Notable Quotes:

• Madeline Brewer [31:25]: "I had no idea Orange Is the New Black would be what it was."
• Madeline Brewer [35:14]: "That was my first TV audition ever."

---

5. Experiences on Set and Character Development in The Handmaid's Tale

Madeline discusses her role as Janine in The Handmaid's Tale, detailing the evolution of her character over the series. She shares personal anecdotes about working with Elisabeth Moss and the emotional depth required for her role.

Key Points:

• Character Complexity: Janine’s transformation from a seemingly unstable character to a more grounded and pivotal figure in the revolution.
• Collaboration with Elisabeth Moss: Madeline expresses admiration for Moss, highlighting the supportive and constructive environment on set.

Notable Quotes:

• Madeline Brewer [54:21]: "Elisabeth Moss said that Maddie is the greatest talent of this generation."
• Madeline Brewer [56:37]: "Janine never hurts anyone. She never kills anyone. That's her nature."

---

6. Addressing Challenges and Personal Boundaries

Madeline reflects on difficult experiences on set, including the absence of an intimacy coordinator during her early roles. She emphasizes the importance of advocating for oneself and the improvements in industry practices over time.

Key Points:

• Intimacy Coordination: Early challenges in maintaining personal boundaries led her to advocate for better on-set protections.
• Personal Empowerment: Learning to speak up and establish boundaries has been crucial in her professional and personal growth.

Notable Quotes:

• Madeline Brewer [44:29]: "I felt really unprotected and taken advantage of."
• Madeline Brewer [45:46]: "I love intimacy coordinators. I'm so glad that they exist."

---

7. Reflections on Critical Episodes and Final Season

Madeline delves into specific moments from the finale of The Handmaid's Tale, particularly focusing on her character’s pivotal scenes and the emotional weight they carry. She discusses the thematic significance of these moments and their impact on viewers.

Key Points:

• Final Scenes: The gravity of Bronte's confrontation with Joe and the resolution of her character arc.
• Thematic Exploration: The portrayal of power dynamics, resilience, and justice within the narrative.

Notable Quotes:

• Madeline Brewer [83:38]: "The fantasy of a man like you is how we cope with the reality of a man like you."
• Madeline Brewer [86:06]: "This is the passing of the baton... It's a brilliant moment."

---

8. Personal Insights and Advice

In the concluding segments, Madeline offers heartfelt advice to her younger self and listeners, emphasizing self-acceptance, resilience, and the importance of pursuing one's passions despite challenges.

Key Points:

• Advice to Younger Self: Encouraging her past self to embrace her uniqueness and assuring her that life improves with time.
• Personal Growth: Acknowledging the difficulties of adolescence and the growth that follows.

Notable Quotes:

• Madeline Brewer [90:51]: "Being 12 is hard. It gets better. It gets so much better."
• Madeline Brewer [90:51]: "Don't take that one job. It'll get you out of being a waitress. But at what cost?"

---

Conclusion

The episode provides an in-depth look into Madeline Brewer's journey from a small-town theater enthusiast to a celebrated actress grappling with complex roles and personal challenges. Through her candid reflections, listeners gain valuable insights into the struggles and triumphs that shape a successful career in the demanding world of acting.

Final Thoughts:

• Madeline Brewer [93:12]: "It's a beautiful chapter to close. Maybe I'll be able to play a woman who's not suffering."
• Madeline Brewer [94:01]: "Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be on Podcrushed."

---

Notable Quotes Recap:

• Madeline Brewer [04:23]: "I was not academically motivated, like by any means."
• Madeline Brewer [05:19]: "I did theater since I was seven. That's what I cared about."
• Madeline Brewer [31:25]: "I had no idea Orange Is the New Black would be what it was."
• Madeline Brewer [54:21]: "Elisabeth Moss said that Maddie is the greatest talent of this generation."
• Madeline Brewer [90:51]: "Being 12 is hard. It gets better. It gets so much better."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Madeline Brewer's appearance on Podcrushed, highlighting her personal anecdotes, professional experiences, and the profound lessons she shares about resilience and self-discovery during adolescence.

Transcript

[Sophie Ansari]

Lemonade. A memory popped back into my head of choir. In high school, our choir teacher would let one of the girls who was addicted to smoking cigarettes, she would let her go out before choir and smoke a cigarette because she was like, well, your voice will be more relaxed. Like you're.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You'll.

[Sophie Ansari]

Isn't that crazy?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I know. I'm not kidding you. When I was in college, I smoked in college, and I would smoke a cigarette right before my. My voice lesson. And there's something. She'd be like, you are in great voice today.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, there's.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I think, not doing. We'll be back.

[Pen Badgley]

Welcome to podcrust. We're your hosts. I'm Pen.

[Nava Kaplan]

I'm Nava.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I'm Sophie.

[Pen Badgley]

And I think we could have been.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Your middle school besties lusting over hobbits.

[Pen Badgley]

Let's be real. The hobbits are sexy. Welcome to the fifth and final season of podcrust. Wait, no, I'm sorry.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm confusing.

[Pen Badgley]

I'm confusing shows here. Welcome to podcrust. We are today in studio New York City. I am joined by my co host, Sophie Ansari, Neva Kavlan, and our guest for the intro. Should I be looking at this camera? This camera? We have three cameras today, folks. We have one very special guest for the fifth and final season of you. She is here promoting not only that, but Handmaid's Tale, which is. Which is out now.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, coming out.

[Pen Badgley]

This is Madeline Brewer. So you know her from. From. From. From my show. Now our show. You Handmaid's Tale. Hustlers Cam.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

Orange is the New Black. What don't you know we're from. Yeah, we dig into everything and more. We had a very lovely time. You're gonna like this one. Please stick around.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm Hasan Minhaj, and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren. Is America too dumb for democracy? Outrageous. Parenting expert Dr. Becky. How do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath? That's a good question. Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know from Lemonada Media. Wherever you get your podcast, suffering is inevitable, and it sucks. But we're still expected to thrive. Everything Happens is a podcast for people who are tired of coffee, monk platitudes, and want something with a little more teeth and a lot more heart. Each week, Duke professor Kate Bowler talks with guests like Glennon Doyle, Sharon McMahan and Coach K about grief, absurdity, and the beautiful, terrible days we actually live through. No hustle culture, no silver linings, just real talk and good company. Listen to everything happens wherever you get your podcasts.

[Pen Badgley]

Meline Brewer. Oh, my lumbar support is just. Is falling.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Time lost. When you said lost.

[Pen Badgley]

I have no way to.

[Hasan Minhaj]

When you said you want just been.

[Sophie Ansari]

Like this the whole time.

[Pen Badgley]

Brewer.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Hello.

[Pen Badgley]

Welcome to Pod Crushed.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thank you. There you go.

[Pen Badgley]

Better. Thank you for coming on.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thank you for having me.

[Nava Kaplan]

We're so excited you're here.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, seriously.

[Pen Badgley]

We always start at 12.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Okay.

[Pen Badgley]

Right. So paint a picture for us. For those who don't know you, you know, you. You were raised in this one town kind of your whole life as far as I'm aware. Right. So there's. I just feel like there's gonna be a lot of rich veins to tap into. But what was 12 year old Maddie like? How was she seeing the world? What was daily life like?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, God. 12. I went to the. Well, I went to the same like schools that all. Like my parents both did. We all graduated from the same high school. Most of my cousins and my aunts and uncles and I very small town just for that context. So at 12, that's when I got my period. That was a really big thing that happened to me at that time. I think I was in the seventh grade. I was just like a kid, like a theater kid. I played softball, I played soccer.

[Pen Badgley]

So you already were.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like, you failed math.

[Pen Badgley]

You failed, really?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Math never got any better. Failed. First fish I ever got on my report card was really. It was the algebra thing. When you start like pre algebra in seventh grade, there's letters, like, they don't belong here.

[Sophie Ansari]

This is math class.

[Hasan Minhaj]

What do you do? Go tell me.

[Sophie Ansari]

This was a good numbers class.

[Hasan Minhaj]

If you want letters.

[Pen Badgley]

How did that. Did you care about that? Like, because some people would, some people wouldn't.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I was not academically motivated, like by any means. Still not really. I could never really wrap my brain around caring that much about school. I mean, maybe I probably could have done with like caring a lot more, but I just. I wanted to do theater. I always did theater. I did it since I was seven. That's what I cared about. So actually in the seventh grade, I was like the lead in the musical, which was super cool.

[Pen Badgley]

And you were already like a theater. Were you a theater nerd? Would you call yourself that? Like, that's kind of a thing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

People, nerd and me don't really go together.

[Pen Badgley]

You're extremely cool.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm so cool. No, I wasn't like a theater nerd in the way that I would classify a theater nerd. Like, I didn't put playbills up on my wall.

[Pen Badgley]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Not that that makes you nerdy. I think that that makes you cool. But, like, when you think about what a nerd is, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just really loved it. I really. I was big into Wicked, you know?

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah. How did your parents react when you failed? Like, what was their sort of concern about your schooling?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I don't felt like they had a lot of room to talk because I'm pretty sure both of my parents were also not academically motivated. I mean, later. They're both very educated, which came later when they realized, like, how valuable it is, I guess, and what they wanted to do with their lives and careers. But I think, and I know that they both were not great in school. Like, very intelligent people, but not motivated academically.

[Pen Badgley]

Well, your dad was an artist of a kind, right?

[Hasan Minhaj]

He was, yes. My dad is a singer songwriter and has been for most of my childhood. But he was a U.S. history teacher. I think he has a master's in U.S. history.

[Pen Badgley]

So he's very educated.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. And he is truly, like, the smartest person I've ever met. He is like. I think that he's on the autism spectrum because of his hyper interests in US History, in the tutorial side of. Of the monarchy in the UK and baseball and the Beatles.

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

So he has, like, focuses. He has.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And he knows specific interests. Yeah, he's written a book. He's written two or three books about US History. At least one book about the Beatles. Wow. Wow. He might have written, like, three or four books about us. Oh, no, he's written like, four books about US History.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Pen Badgley]

You know, was this when you were growing up, was he writing these books?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, he started with a book called Squire Williams Lucky Day, which was like a kind of fiction fantasy. Very Lord of the Rings. Yeah. About this squire who goes on a journey, goes on a great quest. And he was writing that. I remember when I was a kid and he was at the time, he was like, hunt and pecking on the keyboard.

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Took him a long time.

[Pen Badgley]

Wow.

[Nava Kaplan]

I still hunt and peck very fast.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Actually, I use three fingers.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Nava Kaplan]

Sophisticated.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

But it has nothing to do with typing. I just. Wait, you said Lord of the Rings. I'm now remembering. Did you like Lord of the Rings? Was this a youth thing? Did you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, I've always loved Lord of the Rings.

[Pen Badgley]

That's so interesting to me.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But I feel like I was kind of. It was natural. I mean, my dad read us Harry Potter and, like, so the fiction fantasy thing is kind of. I like it. And, like, if I have. I do, like, maybe an annual rewatch of all three of Lord of the Rings.

[Pen Badgley]

Wow, that's.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Is it, like, around Christmas time sometimes? It depends on just, like, when I get a day or a weekend. It's usually now with my fiance, who's also super into Lord of the Rings. Oh, that's really lovely. I mean, he calls where he's from in England the Shire.

[Pen Badgley]

I was gonna say there's something about him that, like, he doesn't seem like a hobbit, but he seems like he's from where?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, he's a Tomorrow. No, no, because.

[Pen Badgley]

Isn't he from Glastonbury?

[Hasan Minhaj]

He's from Glaston down, yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

Right. Which is like this. It's like just crystals and, like, hobbit holes. I hear.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's like they do have shout out.

[Pen Badgley]

To Glastonbury, making fans here at podcast.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like, in Somerset, there's, like, caves and, like, these really beautiful plains. And then there's, like, Glastonbury tour, which has its. Like, the whole town has its roots in, like, really in paganism. And, like. Yeah, he's. He gives. He gives Hobbit. Like, he gives hobbit vibes.

[Nava Kaplan]

Cool Hobbit.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But, like, in a super cool.

[Pen Badgley]

And let's be real, the hobbits are sexy.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Come on. I'm curious about your hometown. You mentioned it. You said it was small. Yeah, Pitman. Because I feel like in our research, I found you talk about your hometown quite a bit, like wanting to go back, loving your hometown.

[Pen Badgley]

I can underscore this in real life. She does, too, in a really loving way.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I just like it, though.

[Pen Badgley]

You love where you're from. You love your family. It sounds like you have this big kind of extended family, right? You're like a. Would you call yourself a Jersey girl?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, God, yes.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Actually, though, really, every time I go home, I go to Pal Joey's and get a hoagie. There you go. If I can. If I can swing it. Yeah, Yeah. I love where I'm from. I'm not. Well, the town has some really complicated roots. Deeply religious, and for a very long time, deeply racist. So don't say so. This is an American town. Small town in the United States.

[Pen Badgley]

Interesting.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Two square miles and it's a little bit racist. Two square miles, yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's very Small, like it's two miles. And for many years, actually until recent years, it was a completely dry town. Like, but on every corner, like a bar and like a packaged good store. But I, I, I have really fond memories of growing up there. I grew up with the same people from preschool to 12th grade.

[Pen Badgley]

Wow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And, and my best friends still live in South Jersey. And it, I mean, obviously had its downsides, you know, middle school the whole time, but I am very fond of it. And my whole family's there. And now, you know, my cousins are starting to have kids and my cousins are. Yeah, we're all very close.

[Sophie Ansari]

I'm curious specifically about how your hometown played a role in your middle school experience in terms of like the places and spaces you would hang out. Like, I imagine in a small town you have a little bit more freedom and independence because it feels safer. I'm curious, like, what would you do with your friends after school? Like, was there a spot you would go?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, I mean, I was, I did like extracurriculars, so I did for the spring and fall. So he's like softball and then soccer. And I did that until I went to high school because those girls in high school cared a lot. I was like, we are not playing in the Olympics. We're playing against some girls from like one town over. Yeah, yeah, relax.

[Pen Badgley]

It's three miles away.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah. It's like right on the other side and they're drunk because they have their dunk and drink. Yeah, yeah. It's so I was, I did that. I mean, I did theater. I mean, every summer since I was like 7, 7 or 8. Every single summer until my senior year of high school, I did a community theater. So we had a great community theater in Pittman. And I was right at the high school, which is right down the street, and I loved it. It was every summer. It was like a thing to be involved in. I made friends from other towns, but I also was from age 9 until age like 19, I was in a choir. And that was like, especially in seventh grade. I, I hated the choir because it was on Friday nights from 7 to 9pm which is like prime. Yeah, that's 12 year old time. Yeah, 12, 13 year old. I hated it because I wanted to go to the, the skating rink.

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like it sounds like I'm from the 1950s, but that was like the place to hang out when I was in seventh grade. And like you'd meet friends. What does Tina Belcher call them?

[Pen Badgley]

Are we supposed to know Tina Belcher?

[Hasan Minhaj]

F o. What are they Called Beef Fox or something.

[Sophie Ansari]

Wait, what?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Tina Belcher is from Bob's Burgers, and they're boys from other towns. I forget exactly what they're called, but that's where. Like in. When I was 12, 13. It's like, boys from other towns. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it was at the roller rink, and I couldn't go because I had to go sing like an angel. I had to sing. I just sing songs.

[Sophie Ansari]

Had a memory pop back into my head of choir. In high school, our choir teacher would let one of the girls who was addicted to smoking cigarettes. She would let her go out before choir and smoke a cigarette because she was like, well, your voice will be more relaxed. Like, you'll. Isn't that crazy?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I know. I'm not kidding you. When I was in college, I smoked in college, and I would smoke a cigarette right before my voice lesson. And there's something. She'd be like, you are in great voice today. Yeah, there's. I think.

[Nava Kaplan]

We'Ll be back. Okay, so you were a theater kid, not a theater nerd. You were not that academically inclined, and you described middle school as awful. I'm curious. Any memorable or weird interactions with teachers?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Well, there was a teacher in the seventh grade who definitely didn't like me.

[Sophie Ansari]

Why do you think that is?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I think that she really liked students who were really engaged and cared a lot about what was being taught. And I didn't care. But I also. Because I. I don't know if I just learned in a different way. I've always felt like I learned by doing. And also very visual learner. I just wasn't. I didn't really get it. I don't know. I just couldn't wrap my brain around a lot of things. I'm still that way. It takes me a while to grasp something, and I don't think that she liked that. And I think she just kind of thought I was stupid. And I've had a lot of teachers, especially math teachers make. I've. I felt. That's why. I just don't. I don't. I don't do that. And they showed you that.

[Nava Kaplan]

Like, she. She let that come through.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. I definitely felt like I was disappointing and I was not smart enough. And that's whatever. I know now. I'm smart. I'm a smart and intelligent person, and I. That's fine. I'm not able to grasp math the same way other people are, and I learn differently, and that's fine. But I make those accommodations for myself now because I know what they are. And, you know, being the child of a teacher and my. My dad is so compassionate and passionate about history and really tries to get the kids engaged and involved, and some kids just don't get it, and that's the way it is. I'd like to think I wouldn't be that kind of student in my own dad's class, but. And I wasn't. My dad taught in a different town, thank God. But I also love history. Like, I was gonna. It was gonna happen. I was gonna love history. Yeah.

[Nava Kaplan]

Well, as a former teacher, I'm sorry you had that experience.

[Pen Badgley]

I was gonna say, these are two. Yeah.

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah. And teachers shouldn't convey that no matter how I.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But I also. I get it. Like, teaching, especially the one teacher I had who really. I think. I didn't realize actually until this last year, I've gone back to school. I'm taking classes at the new school. And it was like the day I got my syllabus for this course I'm taking, which is difficult. And I just. I was uncontrollably weeping, and I couldn't figure out why. I didn't know why. I just knew. I was scared. And I had this flashback that I have not thought about since it happened. I was 16. I was in an algebra class because I couldn't take algebra my freshman year because I failed. Of a teacher just being like, what do you mean? You don't understand this? What, like, how can you not get it? I've described it to you so many different ways. Everybody else in the class gets it. I was also a sophomore in class with all freshmen, so I already felt out of place. And I got this flashback when I was weeping in my apartment, like, not understanding what I was feeling to this teacher who just really made me feel so inept.

[Sophie Ansari]

I was actually.

[Hasan Minhaj]

This is.

[Sophie Ansari]

I was just talking to my sister who also really struggled with math. She actually got diagnosed with a math learning disability called Dyscalcula. And she was telling me that just recently, like, a couple days ago, she came across a woman. She had to do this, like, number. She had to have this conversation about numbers. And the woman reminded her of her elementary school teacher. And she just. She said, I'm sorry, give me a second. And she left and she wept, and she had to walk around the mall for a couple hours and then come back and deal with it. But, yeah, I think hits so deep. And I think for teachers, obviously a teacher should never make a student feel that way. But you're interacting with so many students. I can see how you Might. The teacher might have not even thought that what they said.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I don't think she was, like, a cruel woman or anything. I think that she just might have been. Well, I think that she was also at a point in her career as a teacher where maybe it was time for her to stop. To stop teaching. Like, she was not a young teacher. She was. Like. She'd been doing this a really long time.

[Pen Badgley]

And if we know Pitman, she was a sober racist. I mean, we're not starting off with.

[Hasan Minhaj]

A great zero here. Yeah, but just sober racist. Oh, my gosh. That's not a great representation of Pitman. Pitman has changed a lot. Pitman has done so much. I mean, my mom herself is on, like, the. What is it called? The Anti Racist Drinking Team and the Anti Racist Pittman Anti Racist Committee. Oh, wow.

[Sophie Ansari]

Amazing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And the. And, like, the Pride alliance, like, just kind of trying to bring Pittman into the 21st century. And it's a pretty split town in a lot of ways, but there are. There are wonderful people there. It's a great place to grow up. And I liked the theater department.

[Sophie Ansari]

I think it's so important to have something, especially if you're struggling in one area, to have something that you feel like. But it doesn't matter. Like, this is my thing. You know, there's this thing that people will say, if you have a kid who struggles with math and excels in soccer, don't get them a soccer coach. No, sorry.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Don't get them a math coach.

[Sophie Ansari]

Don't get them a math tutor.

[Pen Badgley]

Get them a soccer coach.

[Sophie Ansari]

This happens to me.

[Nava Kaplan]

Like, Korea, Mahogie.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm a hoagie.

[Sophie Ansari]

You brought it back around. But, you know, like, focus on the. On the strengths.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. I think my parents really did that for me as well. They both were so. So encouraging and never made me feel like there was anything wrong with me because I didn't understand math, because, well, they don't understand math. And so it wasn't really out of place.

[Nava Kaplan]

Maddie, you have a brother named Nick.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I do. What's.

[Nava Kaplan]

What was your relationship like? Is he older? Is he younger? Tell us about that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

My brother's older. Nick is three years older. Um, we're very different. But all of the coolest things about me, like, when people. If I'm like, oh, I like these films, or I like this music, or I'm like, that's my brother. It's like, my brother is the coolest person I know.

[Pen Badgley]

So, wait, did he like musical theater?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, but he has come to all my Shows ever since I was a kid. He's come to every show. He's watched every show I've been in, even though it's definitely not his thing. Right. He's all like, the most. He's like the quietest, biggest fan.

[Pen Badgley]

That's so sweet.

[Hasan Minhaj]

My brother is the best. But we were like. My brother was a senior in high school when I was a freshman. And so in Pittman they have freshman through senior. I don't think that's the same anymore because there's like, no kids. But we don't need to talk about that. And so I was like very preppy, Kit, like teenager. I guess I was. You know, it was a phase. But I wore only like Hollister and ripped jeans and I was like always in a tanning booth. And don't. Whatever. I get spray tans now that are going to kill me.

[Sophie Ansari]

Like, I know Penny's going to say.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Something, but it was a thing, you know, it was a thing. Gym, tan, laundry. It was part of the. My culture.

[Pen Badgley]

New Jersey.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes, it was my culture. Yeah. New Jersey. Jersey shore was on and my brother was a senior and kind of was like very cool and really smart, but didn't care about school, just needed to graduate.

[Pen Badgley]

Sounds like he might have been good at math. I mean, I'm not trying to like. No, because he. No, really, because you're saying that he works with computers in some way now.

[Hasan Minhaj]

In some way.

[Pen Badgley]

Right. But we don't know.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I know he's told me to.

[Pen Badgley]

It's okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I don't think it involves math, though. Also, calculators.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah, fair.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But like, I never took the SATs because the day I was supposed to do it, I didn't realize I was supposed to have a graphing calculator.

[Pen Badgley]

Oh, man.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I like walk in. I'm like, oh, that's terrifying.

[Sophie Ansari]

I walked in and left.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No. And then I left.

[Pen Badgley]

Wow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Because I was like, I don't have the right calculator.

[Nava Kaplan]

The act instead.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, I've never taken.

[Nava Kaplan]

How'd you get into college?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I went to a conservatory.

[Pen Badgley]

Oh.

[Nava Kaplan]

And then it required.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And then those credits transfer.

[Nava Kaplan]

We will get to your career very briefly, but very shortly. First love, first heartbreak.

[Pen Badgley]

If it happened in high school, particularly the adolescent ones. You know, if it's.

[Sophie Ansari]

I love that you immediately self grooming.

[Pen Badgley]

Because now I feel like, how about we. You want to start with an embarrassing story? Way, way worse.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I've never done anything embarrassing ever.

[Pen Badgley]

Never ever.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I've been cool forever.

[Pen Badgley]

Okay. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, I had. My first love was in Preschool. I'm not kidding. I was crazy about a boy named Clayton. Loved him.

[Sophie Ansari]

Did it last?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, we. We actually dated again in the sixth grade.

[Pen Badgley]

Dated again.

[Nava Kaplan]

Came around. Around middle school.

[Sophie Ansari]

Like, we were like.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He was my little, like, preschool love.

[Pen Badgley]

Like, sleeping buddy, and.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And then we dated in sixth grade for a month, and I broke up with him.

[Pen Badgley]

So you broke his heart?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Pen Badgley]

Do you think you broke his heart?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No.

[Pen Badgley]

No.

[Hasan Minhaj]

He broke your heart for the first time. Oh, boy. That's calm. I was, like, madly in love with this same guy my whole life, basically, and then we dated after college, and he's a wonderful person, but I, like, was in love with him forever, and he was like. Would never give me the time of day. Like, I don't know what it was about me, but he just wouldn't give me the time of day. He just kind of. I don't know, didn't like me like that.

[Sophie Ansari]

Did it feel. How did you feel the fact that you guys dated later in life? Like, did that feel like some kind of.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I don't know. It was like. I think I needed to do it. Yeah. It's like I kind of just needed it to happen, and then it did. And then check it off. Yeah. Like, we went our separate ways, and I think. I don't know what he's doing, but I hope he's happy.

[Pen Badgley]

And, yeah, he's definitely not winning as much as you are.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Winning, winning, winning, winning. I'm sure he's winning in his way.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah, I know.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Much love to this man.

[Pen Badgley]

It is. It is.

[Sophie Ansari]

Not everyone wants to be the star of multiple TV shows.

[Pen Badgley]

I don't understand that mentality, but sure, I'll accept it. I'll accept it.

[Nava Kaplan]

Okay. And an embarrassing story.

[Hasan Minhaj]

An embarrassing story. Most of middle school was so horrifically cringy. I don't know. I don't think I have any specific story.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah, sometimes it's hard to. I mean, honestly, what you were saying earlier about, like, I think in a very heartfelt way, the. The. The stories about that teacher is not. It's not so. It's not so embarrassing, but I think it's like. What we're looking for is that it's. It's that unique vulnerability that we all seem to have at that point in time. It's my experience was there's actually, as you said, it's kind of was also sort of embarrassing, vulnerable, cringy, that it's like, I don't really have. I mean, we just finished writing a book about all this.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

And it was hard for me to think of, like, one.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Just one that stands out.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah. It's just kind of like the entire.

[Sophie Ansari]

Time I was like, one that's not also going to make people be like, oh, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm good. Yeah, yeah, I don't want to. Like, I just. I have been an anxious, kind of, like, embarrassed person my whole life. I do not know why I decided to follow the path of someone who is visible in any way.

[Pen Badgley]

Well, this is actually what I want to ask you about. So. So. So that shift from loving something to it becoming a feasible path in life, like, it goes from the thing that maybe is like, you know, first of all, you're at an age as a child where it's. You're not thinking about something, being professional, nor should you. You know, and then you start to come of age, you realize that this art form is meaningful to you. And then finally you're mature enough to be like, well, I could do this for money. I could. I could do this for a thing that, like, maybe I could do the thing I love. Like, I'm interested in that shift when you. When you thought, I'm going to try that. I'm going to try to, like, live out a dream, more or less, you know, even though that's probably not the way you were thinking of it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's. Yeah. I've never never occurred to me to really pursue anything else. But I also didn't feel like I was good at anything else. Like, I didn't. Nothing else gave me that same feeling of. Of confidence because, like, I was an embarrassed kid. I wasn't confident. I've never really had a lot of confidence, I guess. And being on stage made me feel confident. I knew I was a good singer because people told me, but, like, if people hadn't told me, I don't know if I would have known. And. But I wanted to be on stage because my dad had been on stage. He was an actor when he was younger, and he did a few plays at a theater in our town. And I was like, I want to do that. And then I was hooked from 7 years old. Like, I. That applause, that thing, that being on stage, rehearsing your lines. And, like, I loved it. I lived for it. And so they just couldn't stop me. And then all of a sudden, I was nine. They were doing Annie. They actually truly, like, talking about my first heartbreak. My first heartbreak was not playing Annie. Like, I'm not kidding. That was. I was so utterly devastated. I had never experienced such, like, grief and sorrow in my life. I was very blessed. I am very blessed. But I cried for days. I couldn't get over it. So, like, no boy could compare to the heartache I felt at not playing Annie. Wow. But that even just kind of like lit the fire more. I wanted to keep evolving and keep growing and keep singing. And when I was in high school, I just like, we used kind of deciding where you're going. I had a friend who was a year older than me and had gone to amda and she loved it and she was telling me the things she was learning and there was no math and there was no science utopia. It was just like, oh, I get to go, like, feel good about myself and do the thing I love and learn more about it and meet other people who also love it. So going to AMDA was like, I met my soulmates. I met the people I felt like I'd been missing out on for my whole life. People who loved what I loved and wanted to be better and to learn more and to work hard. And it was a dream.

[Pen Badgley]

Where is it? I.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's here.

[Pen Badgley]

It's in New York. That's what I thought. So you were. So was coming to New York. I mean, it's not that far, but was it like.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, it's not that far, but it was still a big move.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah, well, it's not that far practically compared to what you know. But it's coming to the big city, right?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

Was it. Was it that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It was a. Yeah. Small town, big city thing. It's only like two and a half hours away from where I grew up. But it was, it was a big change. And I was 18 and I had, for a moment, my mom actually like begged me to go to a four year school, get a degree, go to somewhere in New Jersey. I think she was really nervous about me going that far away, but I mean, one track mind and I'm still like that. I'm a Taurus. If I get my mind on something, I will do everything in my power to make that thing happen. I will see it through to the end. That's just how I am. I don't really let go of things easily.

[Pen Badgley]

Your lifelong crush.

[Sophie Ansari]

I did.

[Pen Badgley]

You know, you were like, I'm gonna.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Just like, I'm gonna see it through to the end.

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It wasn't that calculated, but it just kind of happened.

[Pen Badgley]

I know, but I'm actually, I'm connecting the dots. I'm seeing, I'm seeing how determined you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Are, but I do. I'm very determined. Yeah. And so I went to amda. And I had never had any thought of working in TV or film at all. I actually was actively not wanting to do that. I didn't want to take the. They offered some, like, screen acting classes. I was like, that's not for me. I don't like that. And I always was like, I'm not an actor. I'm a singer and then an actor and then a dancer. Because, you know, musical theater school, that's what you do. I'm a dancer who sings. I'm a singer who dances. I'm a. I'm an actor who sings. Whatever. I just always thought of myself, I want to be on Broadway. I want to do a national tour. I was so excited to get out there and audition for these things. And then four months after I graduated from amda, I got an audition for what I thought was a web series because it was going to be online.

[Pen Badgley]

And this is Oranges.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Orange the New Black. Wow.

[Pen Badgley]

Right out of amda.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, it was. Well, I had gotten an agent from amda. They had this thing called Panel Night. You could audition in front of managers and casting directors and agents. And so I was with a small agency in New York here. And I also often forget where I am.

[Pen Badgley]

I'm literally like, where am I?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I don't know. And, like, I thought, okay, maybe I'll go on some commercial auditions, and that'll help pay the bills. But I really want to do is audition for theater. And then I. I went on this audition for Orange is the New Black, and I was like, it's gonna be on the Internet. I don't know. It's a web series. And then I get on set.

[Pen Badgley]

Just to be clear, did you thought that because Netflix. Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Because it was like, a streaming, didn't exist.

[Nava Kaplan]

Orange is the New Black and House of Cards were the first.

[Pen Badgley]

That's right, that's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And like, Letterkenny or something. Yeah, there was, like, one other streaming, and. But streaming wasn't a thing. And also, like, I remember in the beginning, they didn't even want you to say binge watch. I think that they felt like it had a negative association or something. Yeah, they wonder why. But they would be like, don't say, like, binge watch the series. Say the series drops.

[Pen Badgley]

So just, like, watch it at your own pace.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Take it slowly.

[Pen Badgley]

Just, like, at a healthy digestive property.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Watch it weekly if you want.

[Nava Kaplan]

When did the penny drop for you?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I don't know what that means.

[Sophie Ansari]

When did you realize?

[Nava Kaplan]

When did you realize what Orange is the New Black was what Netflix was.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How did that all come together, like, while we were shooting? Because, you know, I get on set and like, Lara Prepon's there and Natasha Lyonne and like, Andrew McCarthy was directing an episode and I was like, what are you doing here? This is a web series. This is a web series. And also, like a giant crew going up on MySpace. Yeah. Mia DeLoria was there. I mean, like, I didn't even know what, like, second team meant. So they called second team. And I was like, just standing on my mark.

[Pen Badgley]

And second team for second team are stand ins who come in.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Like, for lighting and camera positioning while actors do, like, touch ups or whatever. And it's very hierarchical. Yeah. No, it's stupid.

[Pen Badgley]

But now calling in first team.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, geez.

[Pen Badgley]

Guys. Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, Winners.

[Nava Kaplan]

Okay, now losers.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Also, another thing with the language, you know, is like, inviting, like, we're gonna invite you as though it's not like they need you.

[Pen Badgley]

So for so many years, I just say the dumb joke. Like, I decline the invite.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, no, I don't think I'll. My RSVP is no. But thank you so much for the invitation. I still don't actually get tired of that joke. I say it all the time. But, yeah, I think being on set. And then, of course, the show drops in July 2013.

[Nava Kaplan]

Wow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And also, I was relatively new to Instagram. A lot of people were. It wasn't what it is now, whatever that is now. And like, overnight, overnight stars out of the show like Danielle Brooks and like Samira Wiley. Taylor. Taylor Schilling, like, skyrocket. And it's just. I don't know that it's a great thing, but it happens. It's the way things work now. I was just glad to be there. Honestly, I had no idea. They kept writing for me. They kept putting me in. And then Genji Cohen was our showrunner and creator of the series, and I was, like, a huge fan of Weeds, so it was just cool. I. I still can't believe that happened. That's crazy. That was your first job? My first audition.

[Nava Kaplan]

That's.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wow.

[Pen Badgley]

I never quite knew that that was your first audition ever.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That was my first TV audition ever.

[Pen Badgley]

Wow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And then I, you know, after that, I did thousands and thousands, thousands of auditions that I haven't gotten.

[Nava Kaplan]

Stick around, we'll be right back.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Foreign.

[Madeline Brewer]

Hey, Julia Louis Dreyfus here. If you listen to me on my Wiser Than Me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor and an evangelist for the mill food recycler There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me it's all about the impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the planet every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great. But of course there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where mill comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can handle nearly anything from a turkey carcass to like 20 avocado pits. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never ever smells. Mill makes dry, nutrient rich grounds that you can use in your garden and add to your compost feed to your chickens. Or mill can get them back to a small farm for you, but you kind of have to live with Mill to really get it. And that's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Sophie Ansari]

Spring is all about fresh starts and growth. What better time to start learning a new language right? With Rosetta Stone? Of course, you can make real progress with Rosetta Stone in a way that feels natural and engaging. Rosetta Stone has been the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. I actually remember my dad buying Rosetta Stone trying to learn. I think it was Spanish. They offer an immersive and effective approach that helps you absorb and retain a new language naturally on desktop and mobile, whenever and wherever it fits your lifestyle. One of the things I would love to do this spring and summer is to be able to travel more confidently and connect with locals in a meaningful way. I always wanted to explore somewhere in South America. I've never been to South America and I have always wanted to go. I don't know if this spring is the time that that's going to happen, but if I want to go, I need to start preparing and brushing up on my Spanish. As I've been saying for many, many months, Rosetta Stone is helping me build the foundation that I need to actually talk to people. Not just to get by, but to actually engage in a meaningful conversation. It feels like I could be opening a door to a whole new world. Thanks to Rosetta Stone, they immerse you in your new language naturally, helping you think and communicate with confidence. There are no English translations, so you truly learn to speak, listen and think in your chosen language. With 30 years of experience, millions of users and 25 languages offered, Rosetta Stone is the Go to Language Learning Solution. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential. Now PodCrush listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com PodCrush to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to Rosetta Stone.com PodCrushed and start learning today. Whether your child is struggling with a specific subject, overwhelmed by homework, or asking questions that you as a parent are not sure how to answer, you are not alone. And if they're ahead of the curve, coasting through class without feeling challenged, that's just as important to address. Every child learns differently and personalized support can make all the difference. IXL Learning is an online learning program for kids. It covers math, language arts, science and social studies. IXL is designed to help them really understand and master topics in a fun way with positive feedback. It's powered by advanced algorithms and gives the right help to each kid, no matter the age or personality. As a former teacher myself, I know how important it can be for kids to have extra support outside of the classroom. In fact, I I used IXL in my classroom as well. Like sometimes while I was helping a student with a specific thing, I needed another student to be working on a specific topic or skill and I would print out things from IXL for them to do or they would use IXL on their computer in the classroom. I also would recommend it to families when I was a teacher if they needed extra problems and things to do at home. And I'm so grateful that when my kid is school age that I will have IXL in my arsenal. If your child is struggling, this is a really smart investment that you can make. A single hour of tutoring costs more than a month of IXL and one subscription gets you access across everything pre K to 12th grade. So if you have multiple kids in your home, they can all benefit from using IXL. IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the US make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and PodCrush listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL memberships when they sign up [e-mail] podcrushed visit ixl.com podcrush to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.

[Pen Badgley]

Did you at any point feel like.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You were missing theater I have for 10 years now. Right, yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

But you went back to it. I mean, you did. You did cabaret.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I did get to do cabaret.

[Pen Badgley]

Was there anything else that you've done in theater since?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean, like, did you really love. Well, right. The summer after I graduated from amda, I did a show in Connecticut called Liberty, which was a new musical about the Statue of Liberty. And I played the Statue of Liberty, which was very fun. And I got to belt my face off, and it was like. It was great.

[Nava Kaplan]

Did you have to wear green makeup?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I had no. I actually, it was like, because, you know, it's a. She's bronze. Yeah. Oh, she's just covered in ox.

[Pen Badgley]

She's oxidized.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. It's like, oxidized. And that's why she's green. Interesting. But I did have a costume change, where I changed into a green. Green audition. That role, it was just Orange is the new book. No makeup and cornrows. And fear is what you saw on.

[Sophie Ansari]

The face, the secret ingredient.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Wow, that was brilliant. I went into my audition with my sides in, my hand physically shaking because I had no idea what was going on. I didn't really know my lines because I didn't know what to do.

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I just read them off the page. And Jen Houston, bless her. Bless that woman. Was like, yeah, okay.

[Sophie Ansari]

Scared.

[Nava Kaplan]

She's shivering.

[Sophie Ansari]

She's perfect.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Really frightened. Let's put her in front of a camera.

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

Did Handmaid's Tale happen? Like, because I'm just thinking, like, you went from that to a show that was. I mean, we don't need to compare them, but it's huge.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Confined women.

[Pen Badgley]

Well, yes, that too, actually.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Pen Badgley]

It was actually interesting. Yes.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Confined.

[Pen Badgley]

I wouldn't have used that, but that's completely what it is. You're right. But also a show that was extremely successful, extremely acclaimed.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

So I'm wondering about how much time passed from, like, those first couple years of Orange to Handmaids Orange.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I was only in the first season, so we shot that until February 2013. The show came out in July 2013. I auditioned for the Handmaid's Tale in June 2016. I will say those three years felt like a lifetime.

[Nava Kaplan]

I can imagine.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It was like, I worked on one other show, and then I was starting the process of moving to la. I was auditioning. I was doing the pilot season, auditioning for everything, getting nothing. I also had a relationship that was still in New Jersey, and it was all very confusing. And there were moments where I was really not as interested in pursuing a Career on screen. I was thinking, like, maybe I should just go back, try to do musical theater. I had been on this big show, and it was like, you kind of got to follow that thing. And then I had a bad experience on a set, and I just kind of wanted to quit altogether. And I just. I've always just kind of been like, well, hope I can leave whenever I want. Like, I still love it, so I'll still do it, but if I want to go, I can just go. I'm capable of doing other things in my life. I'm not entirely sure what they are. Like, I'm not sure how I would turn them into a career. But as of right now, I still love it, so I'm going to keep doing it.

[Nava Kaplan]

Can I ask Maddie, without sharing anything you don't want to share, what about the experience made you want to quit?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, it was just horrible. I felt really unprotected and, like, taken advantage of. And I didn't, like. Like, it wasn't a job that I took because I, like, loved the story or, like, I loved the character. I actually really didn't like the character, but I wanted to con. A win was a win. You know, the problem on that job, not you, the other one, was how unprotected I felt. There was no intimacy coordinator. There was like, oh, well, the woman's a director, so you should be comfortable. But, like, just because a woman is directing doesn't mean she's, like, taking care of me. And I didn't understand how to take care of myself or advocate for myself, so I really learned on the job. So when anybody asks me about, like, our scenes that we had to do, I'm like, pen's been doing this for a long time. I've been doing this for a long time now. Like, we. We understand who we are, our boundaries, and, like. But I had to learn that on the job. I had to learn how to advocate for myself. And, yeah, I. I don't. I just. I love intimacy coordinators. I'm so glad that they exist. I'm also glad when they. They allow actors like myself to say, I've. I'm good, I'm comfortable, and I'll let you know if I'm not.

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Because also, I need that autonomy as well. But I just think of someone 21 years old, like I was when I did this job, and feeling so lost. No one to talk to, no protection, no feeling of safety, because you don't want to be like, the squeaky wheel, and you don't want to Ruffle any feathers and just kind of keeping your mouth shut and doing the job, which we. I got through it. I'm fine. But I really had to learn how to speak up for myself. Yeah. Yeah, that sucked. Whatever. I'm fine now.

[Pen Badgley]

I'm. I'm interested in, like, so going from orange to New Black. Like, these are the. These are the. The tent poles of your career. If you were to look at a resume. Right. You know, like. And you said it yourself, like, confined women.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

Which is interesting. You know, Handmaid's Tale. And then, of course, you've been a part of other things. But then this show, you. I'm curious if, you know, like, anybody. You had periods of uncertainty, insecurity, you know, questioning, am I going to do this? And then, you know, at the same time, you have, like, such confidence as a performer and as an artist. I'm wondering if you started to feel a connection to or agency within this idea. Like, oh, I'm starting to build a career that has a path where I'm playing women, where there's, like, importance here. There's, like, social relevance. There's, like, something I can mine in my own experience, you know, I guess I'm just wondering if, especially when it came to my show, our show, you where you were, like, really making, I think, like, a conscious decision, you know? You know, that you've been on this show, Handmaids. Right. It's like, that's a clear thematic thing. You're like, okay, this. I'm jumping onto this show, you know, Like, I'm wondering how that was for you and how you've been. There's. There's a lot of different questions in this, you know, because it's like, it's. I'm wondering about you as an. As an artist thinking about, like, femininity and, like, rights for women on one hand, and then also just as an artist, like, getting to do things you care about.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. You know, I'm so lucky. I mean, this job, you kind of encapsulates both, and, I mean, so does Handmaid's Tale. It wasn't. I wasn't aware of it at the time of the importance of Orange is the New Black and kind of the life that that would take on, especially many more seasons down the line. I felt so many, so many times over the years, like, I don't think I want to do this anymore. I don't know. I don't really know what my path should be. Am I just, like, falling into things because it's there? Like, sometimes you Just take a job, because you kind of have to take a job. And I haven't always felt a ton of choice, but I do think that the industry is changing and has changed a lot since I started. I mean, you've been doing this for 120 years, you know, 30 seconds. So I do feel like the. The landscape has changed, but I've also. I've gained confidence as a performer and as. As an advocate for myself and for others. But, like, doing after the first season of Handmaid's Tale, Handmaids, I was just so excited to do because I was a fan of the book and such a great character. Like, so. Oh, I mean, those sides, those first sides that I read, I was like, oh, I'm in. I'm ready. Because I like to do things that I like to transform. I like to use, like, physicality, like, vocal, and like. Like a full change. I like to go as far as I can because it feels good and I like it. And Janine was a big change. And then right after the first season of Handmaid's Tale, I did the movie cam, which truly changed my life, which is about a woman who is a. Like, a sex worker. She's a cam girl, and she, like, gets her identity stolen, which is something that I. Not even. Her identity stolen. Like an algorithm almost, like, steals her image and steals her face, basically. And it's really, like, what I. What I loved about it. And I remember talking to our director Daniel and the writer Issa about it. It's like, her name's Alice. Alice could be a twitch streamer. She could be a YouTuber. She could be any person who exists, exists online. But the story we're telling is about a cam girl. So it's not only, like, her face and her likeness and her words and her voice. It's also her body, her sexuality, which is what. I mean, if there was just that thing recently about, like, Scarlett Johansson. Yeah. And she's in particular, like, been so, like, vocal about how that's affected her and how violating it is. But it also happens to people like, like, deep fakes on, like, porn websites. It's awful. And our. Our writer, they use Penn's voice.

[Nava Kaplan]

AI stuff. Uses?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Are you kidding? Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

I'm not aware of it being on any porn sites.

[Sophie Ansari]

No, not on porn.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Sorry, sorry.

[Nava Kaplan]

Not on deep fake porns. But his voice also gets used by.

[Hasan Minhaj]

AI, I'm sure you can verify.

[Pen Badgley]

What. What's this thing with Scarlett Johansson?

[Nava Kaplan]

They use her voice. Some company asked if they could use her voice, and she said no. And then they used it anyway. They used an AI version of her voice.

[Sophie Ansari]

It was like, it sounds exactly like her, which is so ironic.

[Nava Kaplan]

After she declined, she did that film.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah. She was so good in her. Yeah, that was. That's an incredible film.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, I love that movie. But also about, like, our connection to technology and cam was just. I mean, it was an incredible learning experience, but it also. It was my first time, like. Like, really, like, leading and feeling confident in that. And then there's also the other.

[Pen Badgley]

You mean coming from, like, admittedly iconic supporting roles to being like. Is that what you mean?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I felt it was cool. It was great. I got to play two characters. It was awesome. But it was also a huge step outside of my comfort zone. Like, I am not. I don't. I'm not, like, a sexy girl online. You know, I don't do it. Yeah. It's not who I. I just don't do, like, hey, I'm sexy girl. I don't know. And whoever you do, God bless you. And I like your photo Double Tap, you know? But it was very scary. It was. But I wanted to tell this story. It was also written by Issa Matse, who. Who was a cam girl and spoke about, like, basically getting her identity taken from her online. Like, she would post this stuff on her cam site that makes her money, and people would just, like, rip it from that site and put it on, I don't know, Pornhub or something with, like, her name stripped away and only just, like, hot brunette does. Blah, blah, blah. Like, all of the work that she put into it. Her body, her voice, her life, just stripped away for someone else to make money. And so it's kind of about that. I know that talking about porn isn't really your vibe here on podcrust. It's gonna bring in a new audience. But it's like, I was really proud of that, of that job and to, like, lead and to feel really bolstered by this crew. Incredible crew, incredible filmmakers, and by Issa, specifically, who was such a champion of mine, and also of making something artistic about something that's so, like, always so exploited, which is the. The feminine form. And she really kept her eye on making sure I was safe and I was comfortable and confident, and I could call cut on certain things, and I could really choreograph things myself. And it gave me a lot of. It really empowered me. But, yeah, and I'm grateful for it. It changed my life.

[Nava Kaplan]

Let's talk about Janine a little bit. And Then we'll talk about Bronte. Janine. I can't think of any character who's like Janine. I do feel like a lot of characters are that you can think of other characters who are similar, but she feels like a one of one in sort of. I don't know. I can't think of any. Anyone else like her in fiction. And you. You talked about that excitement when you saw the sides. And I'm just curious, like, how you. I don't know, how do you balance someone like her? Like, she has such tenderness, and then she has, like, moments of ferocity. And you play her so well, and you're kind of unrecognizable as Janine. Like, you really lose yourself in her. It's incredible.

[Hasan Minhaj]

She's a lot of fun, but she's also. When we first meet Janine, she's kind of out of her mind. But what I didn't want that to be is like, oh, she's the crazy one. Like, she is. I think she's made a choice to check out. And I think that it's crossed her mind to check out of this realm. But she knows that she has a child somewhere, Caleb, who is her child from before Gilead. And so the way that she stays and the way she maintains is to check out mentally and see that silver lining and to make the best of every situation. But even in that, like, she's not gone. That fire that we see when we first see her at the Red center is still there. And that has kind of been the theme for me of the whole show is that who you are before you enter Gilead or whoever these women were before they. They entered Gilead, they can't get rid of it. You can't turn someone into, like, a womb, like a walking womb, and eliminate the personhood from that. And I think we see that actually in the final season of the Handmaid's Tale is that the June that we meet is still there. The Janine that we meet in these first episodes is still there. The Moira. I don't care about Serena Joy, unfortunately, but I don't know why people do. I'm like, why are we. What do you mean?

[Sophie Ansari]

Show me. Bring me back.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, I just saw a comment the other day that she's like, I want a happy ending for Serena Joy. And I was like, why, girl? Why? When did she earn that?

[Sophie Ansari]

No, no.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I don't know.

[Sophie Ansari]

One of the most evil. Like, yeah, come on, you. This season, I'm all caught up. I love the Handmaid's Tale. I mean, you know, love it, and I'm terrified by it. But we see such a different side to Janine in this season and, like, more boldness. Like, some. Like, you're saying all of that existed before, but we see it more in this season, maybe a little bit more aggressive. How does it feel to play her in that way?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh, it's. I'm so glad that our writers over the last six seasons have allowed Janine to evolve. They could have easily been like, and that's the crazy one. And we'll just keep her as the crazy one for all six seasons and as, like, on an occasional. An occasional, like, comedic relief and just the one that everyone's trying to bring back down to earth. But they allowed her to become grounded, which is only natural after this much time in this world. And she has suffered so much and seen so much, and I don't think she's jaded. I think she's just become more grounded. Her feet are more planted on the ground. I'm so grateful for that, because it is now where she will be more. Much more useful to the revolution. And she's also spent years and years with June, who is. Who's a different kind of fighter than Janine, but is a fighter. And I think that a lot of June has rubbed off on Janine, and we see that. Yeah. In this final season.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And she's. I'm really. I'm. I'm really grateful. I grew up on the show. I mean, I was 24 when I started, and I'm 32 now. And as I grew up, so did Janine and learned things about myself through her and about being a woman and about being a. Maybe a mother someday and a friend. And. Yeah, she's just taught me so much.

[Nava Kaplan]

So Elisabeth Moss has directed you. She came on our show. She paid you the greatest compliment someone.

[Pen Badgley]

Could pay for which we talked about.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We're gonna say it.

[Nava Kaplan]

Let's say it again. Let's remind everyone. Elisabeth Moss said that Maddie is the greatest talent of this generation, the greatest actor of her generation. And I just want to know, what is your relationship with her? I love that woman.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I really do love her. I mean, Lizzie is. She is, like, the kindest, warmest. Yeah. Like, she's incredibly loving. She's. She makes you feel special. Like, when you are with her, she has a way of, like. Of just making you feel, like, known and appreciated, and especially, like, after so many years and in a big ensemble. And even when we first met, though, like, with all these girls, she doesn't know us yet. She just has such a way of really just making you feel welcome and a part of it and an important part of it. And I'm so grateful to her for that. And I idolize her. She is, I think, the best actress. The best actress of.

[Sophie Ansari]

I was like, what's that?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Of many generations. It's my own lingo. I think that she's the best actress of many generations. She's so, like, effortlessly skilled. I mean, her show. Oh, my God. Top of the Lake, that Jane Campion show, is unbelievable. If you haven't seen it, it's freaking amazing. And also, like, a master of accents and of, like, very, very fine, almost imperceptible, like, movement of the face and of the eyes, and that can convey so much, especially on a screen. Yeah, she's wonderful. And as a director, she's like. She cares so deeply about these characters. She knows as much as you do about them. I mean, she's given it so much thought, and especially to see her come into her own as a director in this final season. She directed the first two and the last two of the series finale. Yeah. And it's excellent. And even Janine's last scene I did in adr, like, two weeks ago. I was inconsolable with, like, just the. I felt honored with the way that she gave those final moments to this character who. Who I've loved so deeply for so many years. And I felt from her that love in the way it kind of finishes out. She's incredible. I mean, that's so sweet.

[Sophie Ansari]

Okay, so I have to ask you about Fred Waterford's death. It was, I mean, brutal, epic. And at one point, I think I thought, well, this episode is out after. People will have seen you. They'll have seen the finale and how it ends for Jo Pen. And at one point, I thought maybe his end would be more like Fred Waterfield.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like Fred's.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, like women tearing him apart.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There is a very. Something similar. Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yes, there is. There is that one element, one appendage that is.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That is lost.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yes.

[Pen Badgley]

Talking about his pinky in season two, right?

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, no.

[Pen Badgley]

The joke of Joe is that every season, he loses some apparent. And I would make the joke with them. I'm like, so the final season's got to be the dick, right?

[Hasan Minhaj]

I guess that was you.

[Pen Badgley]

We're gonna keep going. I actually forgot that I'd been making that joke, and I. I don't want to take credit for it. They. I forgot I had made the joke. And I'm sure They had forgotten that I had made the joke.

[Nava Kaplan]

I cannot believe it.

[Pen Badgley]

I cannot believe that I had just remembered this. But, yeah, I used to make the joke like, well, we're just gonna. We're gonna have to.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We're gonna.

[Pen Badgley]

There aren't that many appendages.

[Sophie Ansari]

Another time.

[Pen Badgley]

I'm just in my own moment.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We gotta go all the way. Yeah. Iris to Van Gogh. You know, we've really gotta go for it. It's been done. Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

No. Well, I guess my question was, do you think that there's a world where that would have been satisfying for you viewers?

[Pen Badgley]

Oh, interesting.

[Nava Kaplan]

For all the women to tear him apart.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Tearing apart limb from limb or just like a.

[Sophie Ansari]

Like a. Like a bloody brutal.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Sophie Ansari]

Instead of what I thought was really satisfying, which is what ended up happening.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. I think it totally could have, and it would have been deserved. I don't think it's as delicious as the ending that Joe does have, but, I mean, what's so special about special? What's so satisfying, I think, about that ending for Fred Waterford is that it is at the hands of the people he has as hurt. Hurt is not strong enough a word.

[Sophie Ansari]

But.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But I have, like, I will say for me, for Janine, Janine never hurts anyone. She never kills anyone. She never. There's no act of violence by her hands against someone. And I'm really grateful that that was maintained through the end of the series, because it's not her nature, it's not her spirit. And it's very similar. I talk about this. It's very similar to Bronte. Like, delivering justice to Joe is not Bronte's job. She came to get answers, and she is here to let justice be served, but not by her hand, you know?

[Nava Kaplan]

But do you think she was aiming for his penis or that's an accident?

[Pen Badgley]

No, that's definitely. No, it's unequivocally an accident. It is meant. That's.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, yeah. I think I say something like, I accidentally made him into a human Ken doll or something. Yeah, yeah. Which is so funny. But, yeah. No, the vibe was like, just kind of.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oops.

[Sophie Ansari]

Never had a gun before.

[Pen Badgley]

God's hand.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Joe's penis from your hands. I won't finish that.

[Pen Badgley]

But with Handmaids, I do think that there is always. The show is far more visceral. It's far more visceral. Like what we don't show on you is in its own way, you know? And I think there is a certain responsibility. Well, you could really slice it either way with either Show. It's like, is it more responsible or less responsible to show it or not show it? Right. It's like they, each has its own value and each has its own drawbacks. And with Handmaids, it's a far more graphic, explicit, visceral experience of, like, seeing abusive women. It just, that's what it is. And it, it has taken that mantle and it explores it so much in that direction. You know what I mean? Like, so it just, that it's its own, it's like, it's, it's its own world of a way to explore that theme. You know what I mean? And then you. Our show is, is another one.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

You know, they're very, they're very different. I, I, they're exploring similar themes, but I think, I think very differently. And actually maybe if, if I was like, a media historian and had seen the end of Handmaid's Tale, which I haven't, you know, I think there's something to be said about, like, okay, so this is one way that we deal with this icon. Rip him apart. Have the women who he's abused rip him apart. And then there's another, which we'll talk about in the other episode.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, but there is a difference, I think, in the fact that Handmaid's Tale has a very, has very clear villains, especially in the first few seasons. And we, in watching you as a fan, the protagonist, or, I mean, the antihero, he's not like. I don't even know how to describe him. Yeah, he's the villain. But, but it's not so cut and dry like in Handmaid's Tale. It is cut and dry, especially in the first few seasons. Bad.

[Pen Badgley]

They're evil.

[Hasan Minhaj]

These people are evil. These people have, are the architects of Houses of Horrors.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And deserve to be tore limb from limb.

[Pen Badgley]

Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

In my opinion. Yeah. In Maddy's opinion, not Janine's, I don't think. But yeah. And that becomes a little more blurry as the seasons go on. I mean, June becomes an antihero, like a true antihero, and does really, really questionable things. And she's hard to root for at a certain point, I think. But also, that's just like, the way we treat women, I guess. It's like, if you're not the perfect victim, then you're a villain, so. Which I think people will think about Bronte, too. I think that they won't. I think that people won't like Bronte. I mean, they already don't because she's not Lover Beck. But that's just the fans of the show, of that show. But I think Bronte is not a. Not a perfect. I don't know. I don't know what box to put her into, really.

[Pen Badgley]

I do. I think. I mean, I think that she's more interesting than at least Joe by the end, to be honest. I think there's a. When you were describing all that, Nava, there's like a. Like a visual metaphor I was thinking of in terms of landing the plane that, like, you as Bronte, are landing the plane, like, you know, maybe covered in blood. And I was just like, I can't do it anymore. I can't do it anymore. There's nothing left for me to do. I can't do it. I've said the thing. You have to do it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm like, ben, we're doing this thing. We're landing this plane.

[Pen Badgley]

So that's. I really have felt. I've been saying it in all my press. I think by the end, it was made to be this way. The writers did it. You did it with your performance, I did it with mine. It's like. I just feel like the point is that we're trying to make her the one you want to see in the end, not him at this point. F this man.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I mean.

[Pen Badgley]

No, I'm gonna say it. Fuck this man. Like this. Yeah. Shots fired. It just really. It just. I really even felt in that last scene like, you know, you were doing and what Bronte had to do. Well, Louise at that point is, like, far more compelling than Joe. What more could he do to be like. Just to deny and coerce and be like, no, I don't know. So. So again, hats off.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thank you.

[Pen Badgley]

Hats off to you.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I think it's really incredible, though, that right through to the end, Joe is who he is. I think that what keeps people so invested in him and why they feel he's so redeemable is he could change. Because it's that thing. I can change him. It's that thing you want to believe you can. And to the very, very final moments of the series, he cannot take responsibility. And he can't change. He just can't. I mean, that's the way I see it. And I'm glad that they didn't try to change, make him change, or it's true. Every single season. He thinks he's changed. He can change. I can do this. Oh, nope, don't do that. Don't go there. And he does, inevitably, because he's going to. Because he can't help Himself, because it's who he is. And it's actually remarkable that, like, the.

[Pen Badgley]

Twist at the end of every season is that he's the same.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

Everybody's like, I cannot die.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There he goes again.

[Pen Badgley]

You gotta see next season.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

Okay.

[Hasan Minhaj]

See if he does it again.

[Nava Kaplan]

Yeah. We're in so much denial that they actually pulled off the twist in season four that he's the eat the rich killer.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

Right.

[Hasan Minhaj]

How is it that we did know.

[Nava Kaplan]

That he's the star in the serial killer show and there's like, a mass murder are killing people and we don't know that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We don't know that it's him, actually.

[Pen Badgley]

Seriously, Hats off to the writers.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Repeatedly.

[Pen Badgley]

Repeatedly being like. And it's a rabbit in a head. You know, it's like, it's. It's really amazing. It's amazing that this show has done what it's done for so long. My goodness.

[Sophie Ansari]

And we'll be right back.

[Nava Kaplan]

I don't know about you all, but the minute it gets warm, I convince myself that I need a whole new wardrobe. And then I end up with a pile of clothes that I might never wear. Quince is the one brand that actually helps me break that habit. Their pieces are timeless, lightweight. Somehow they make my closet feel pulled together. Quince has 100% European linen shorts and dresses from just $30, luxe swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals, and so much more. And the best part, everything with quince is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I have always had a hard time figuring out how to be office chic when the weather starts to warm up. You guys might know this about me, but I'm a blazer girly, and that gets a little tricky when it's pretty hot out. So that's why I'm really excited about Quince's 100% European linen. The pants, the combos, they're so breathable, they're super comfortable, and they're pulled together enough to wear to work. It's definitely going to become a summer staple. Treat your closet to a little summer glow up with quince. Go to quince.com podcrush for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com podcrush to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com podcrushed I wish I had known.

[Sophie Ansari]

About Rakuten sooner because it's actually an incredible tool. I am already doing regular shopping at places like Sephora for skincare or Adidas for workout gear. Urban Outfitters for, you know, the trendiest stuff. All of those stores are on Rakuten, so the fact that I could earn cash back just by clicking through their site before I shop. Total game changer. Rakuten really is one of the smartest ways to save money because you earn cash back at over 3,500 stores. Everything from fashion and beauty to electronics, home essentials and even concert tickets. Stores like Nike, Bloomingdale's, Levi's. They pay Rakuten to send them shoppers and Rakuten turns around and gives part of that payment back to you. It's like getting rewarded for buying things that you were already gonna get anyway. Cash back is deposited directly into your PayPal account or Rakuten can send you a check. You can even maximize your savings by stacking cash back on top of other deals like store sales and coupons. You're already shopping at your favorite stores. Why not save a little while you're doing it? It's honestly a no brainer. Membership is free and it's easy to sign up. Get the Rakuten app now and join the 17 million members who are already saving. Cashback rates change daily. See rakuten.com for details. That's R a K u T E N Your cash back really adds up.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Hi, I'm Emily Deschanel.

[Sophie Ansari]

And I'm Carla Gallo and we're here.

[Nava Kaplan]

To bring you Boneheads, the official Bones Rewatch podcast.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That's right, we are watching all the episodes of Bones, starting with episode one.

[Sophie Ansari]

And we are the right people to do it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I play Dr. Temperance Bradnon and I.

[Nava Kaplan]

Met Carla 16 years ago on set.

[Sophie Ansari]

I played Daisy Wick.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Tune in every Wednesday to hear all our behind the scenes stories, conversations with.

[Nava Kaplan]

Cast and crew, and our favorite moments.

[Sophie Ansari]

Boneheads from Lemonada Media is out wherever.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You get your podcasts.

[Sophie Ansari]

There's a point in the finale where Bronte says to Joe, like you erased my intuition. I don't know if you say it aloud to him or you say it in your head, but she says it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

In the rain with a gun in her hand.

[Sophie Ansari]

Such that was just like, oh my gosh. I feel like I've been in that situation before. I've been in positions like that.

[Pen Badgley]

Less rain, same gun.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, yeah, definitely a Gun involved. So, like, sometimes in relationships, but also just in life. Like, I feel like I'm always trying to, like, listen. Listen to my intuition, but it's, like, clouded by so many other things. I'm really swayed by other people's opinions. And I love how, in you. Bronte seems to lean on the other women in her life. When that does happen and she's getting sucked into Jo's orbit more, she leans on the other women in her life who kind of bring her back to reality. And I was curious if you feel like there's been any times in your life where you've been in that position where there have been women in your life who have helped you gain a new perspective on a situation or brought you out of something?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, what I do love so much about, especially in toward the end of the series with Bronte, is that she has lost herself so much to this man and to who he's. Just the lies that he's told and the manipulation and the gaslighting and it's. And you lose yourself in that. If you've ever been in that kind of situation with not even, like, a romantic partner, with anyone who. Who makes you feel like you're just spinning in circles, you need someone, someone who knows you, to kind of hold your hand and, like, walk you back to sanity. Like, abuse dynamics are. So. It's like, why abuse dynamics is. The way I put it is because it's not cut and dry what abuse is for a lot of people. Like, you know, violence. Yes. Abuse, Screaming, yelling. Like, that is more clear. Like, vicious language, demeaning language. But. But getting someone to spin in a circle inside their mind to the point where, like, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Like, to watch that happen or to experience it yourself, it's. It's so frightening. Like, and to see it happen to someone else, Like, I've been that person for my friends to kind of walk them back to sanity and to themselves. It's. It's the most insidious part of what Joe does, I think. I mean, besides the literal murder. Let's just. Let's make that clear. But he. He makes Bronte lose who she is. Not even just what she set out to do, because what she set out to do was to get answers about Beck. He. She questions herself, her intuition, her gut instinct, her own friends. And it's so. He does it so tactfully without really making her think. Like, is he. Is this wrong? Like, yes, she's questioning Sorry. She's so layered, especially in that ninth episode, that, like, it's hard to figure out even where she is. But Marianne is the one who brings her back to. I don't know, to herself. And when she lays out piece by piece, like, I know exactly what you're experiencing. I know exactly how you felt. He made me feel that, too. And listen to yourself and reminds her that, like, you can trust yourself again. You're allowed. I don't know that I've necessarily experienced. I totally have, actually. Just questioning, especially when I was younger, questioning, what did I do to make this situation happen? Like, this is my fault. I created this because I was also involved with someone who was saying, you created this, you wanted this. You did this to yourself. Um, and I didn't think I did. I didn't think, like, by the time it got to the point that it did, I'm like, did I ask for this? Did I allow this to happen? How could I have allowed this to happen? And I think what's so important about what she says, what Marianne says is, no, that's something that happens to other girls, that happens to other women. That happens to stupid women. I'm not stupid. I'm strong. I'm smart. And it can happen to anyone. Like, you can't outsmart yourself, really. Like, if. If someone can get one small hook into you, next thing you know, you don't recognize yourself anymore. You don't recognize the situation you're in, and you think you put yourself there, and it's. It's tragic like, that. It can happen to anyone because a really great manipulator is. I mean, it's masterful. You can't. How can you fight against something like that? Because what you're really doing is you're. You're allowing yourself to be loved. You're allowing yourself to be loved really well. And, I mean, luckily, the Internet is terrible in a lot of ways, but, like, people understand what, like, love bombing and gaslighting is. I think gaslighting is overused. People don't. I think when you really understand what gaslighting is and you see it. But I think what's. When I see a dynamic like that where like. Like Joe and Bronte. Bronte believes the good parts of Joe because she's allowing herself to be loved in a way she's never been loved. She's allows herself to be taken care of. Meanwhile, that is like a tactic, that is a method, that is a rule book that he follows time and time again. He finds the very specific Thing. The very specific need, the very specific place of, like, void. And he just fills it with love. And I think it's a testament to who Bronte is, is that she wants to be open to it, and it's just the wrong person. I'm talking in a circle.

[Pen Badgley]

No, no, no, no. I actually think probably there's a lot of people listening who, first of all, just be interested to hear all of that. But I. I was even thinking that, like, there are so many people who are in versions of a relationship like that. That's nowhere near as extreme, obviously. But it's. I think it's always helpful. It's always helpful to hear another person's experience of that dynamic because it's so present. And again, I'm talking about the way it's present in small ways, where men, particularly men. I think a lot of men don't realize they have shades of this, because I think the. The way that it starts out is that they're trying to survive. No one sets out to become a master manipulator. Nobody's Lex Luthor. You know what I mean? Like, men do this because at some point they had to manipulate to survive, and then they don't realize how much they're always in survival mode.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

And a man is able to make that more charming and seductive than a woman is. To be in survival mode and to manipulate and to be commanding and to fill that space, as you said, not with love actual, but love seeming. You know, it's like I can be. If I look a certain way. Well, I can act a certain way. And that feels like love for a certain amount of time. You know what I mean? And they are often not really thinking about it that much. And that's why a man like Joe can't change. Because he's really not able to see himself because he's really not able to accept that he's actually. He's not actually able to see himself as a boy and see the sadness, see the grief, and admit that he has vulnerability and weakness. And then, you know, anyway, blah, blah, blah.

[Nava Kaplan]

We have to ask you guys about this moment. Cause it's sort of like the. Just like the defining moment of the whole series, which is when Bronte delivers this incredible line. The fantasy of a man like you is how we cope with the reality of a man like you.

[Pen Badgley]

That's it. That's the.

[Nava Kaplan]

That's in the range, just holding the gun. And I want to know if you guys can tell us sort of like, what it was like to film that Moment, the gravity of it as actors and then watching it back as viewers, sort of about those two. Those two things.

[Pen Badgley]

Well, I want to give Maddie her flowers because that is where I literally, like, as that scene was happening, I just thought, this is. She's more compelling in it. Not that it has to be this comparison thing, but I really felt like this is better. This is more she. This is the point of it all. I always used to say in the seasons prior to this last one being like, you know, I don't know that it's possible because of the way things have to work in television. And, like, you have to kind of keep the star of the show the star of the show. But what would be really great is if you just deconstructed so that nobody wants them anymore, and then you give it to a woman and just, like, tell her story. And so for, like, the latter half of one episode, we kind of did that. And by the end of that scene, I think where you deliver the thesis of the whole show, which we all had to figure out over a decade for us all to realize, like. Oh, yeah, like. And it's a brilliant moment. The way we cope with the reality. It's backwards.

[Hasan Minhaj]

The fantasy of a man like you is how we cope with the reality.

[Pen Badgley]

How we cope. Yes. All together now. I mean, that's just like. As you were delivering that, I was having my own experience of being like, I can't find something new here for Joe to do. What you were doing was new, compelling, awesome. You have all these lines you had to say, let's talk about it. And you're like, you know, the rain was making it so hard to perform for me. At least I found that my. I don't know if you remember this. I don't know if I was telling you this, but I was like. Like, I have nothing to do or say to add to this. I'm like, in order to be heard above the rain and beyond, to be on my knees. And I was, you know, we were both nearly.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And by the end, it was like a lake. You were in a lake?

[Pen Badgley]

It was. It was. It was cold and wet.

[Nava Kaplan]

Was it like 2am also? Was it very.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah, at that point it was probably three.

[Hasan Minhaj]

We wrapped. We wrapped that night, I think, around 4:30.

[Nava Kaplan]

Wow.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

You wrapped at 4:30? Because we had a little bit extra. Yeah, we did. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Me, I wrapped at 4:30. No, that's right. You were until the sun up, weren't you?

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I was on my way to the Jersey shore.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah. I Just really felt like this is the passing of the baton. Like, you had real work to do and you were doing it, and it was so lovely to watch. And I was just like, I can only talk about it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I do remember your hands, like, kind of just down to your side.

[Pen Badgley]

I mean, my neck. My neck muscles, literally, I was actually finding it. I was like, I can't. I couldn't speak. I couldn't do. So I was having to force it up like this. And I was just like, yeah, I was. And I was thinking to myself, like, this is terrible. Like, these are his last moments, and I am landing the plane.

[Nava Kaplan]

But he looked amazing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And it's.

[Pen Badgley]

And it's like. And it's like, also. Also as an actor, too, you know, this is. This is not. The writers did what they needed to do, and it's so super good. I just was like, he has nothing new here. I knew this man from day one. Like, this is boring. So I was just like, you know, like, they're coming. It's like, shut up, bro. This is stupid. We've seen it. And then what you're doing has all this, like, nuance and layers.

[Nava Kaplan]

I didn't expect Joe to beg to be killed, I have to say. So it didn't feel stupid.

[Pen Badgley]

It didn't feel interesting.

[Nava Kaplan]

It didn't feel like, ah, same old Joe.

[Hasan Minhaj]

No, it was.

[Nava Kaplan]

It felt new.

[Sophie Ansari]

On every Friday, he finally was giving up or trying to get out of it.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yes.

[Pen Badgley]

No, I agree. I agree with that. So I don't know. What I mean is kind of, like, thematically, it was exactly what it needed to be. So it was beautiful in that sense. But I think as an actor trying to, like, you know, you're always trying to look for something new, I guess.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Right.

[Pen Badgley]

And I was like, there's nothing new here.

[Sophie Ansari]

There's just nothing.

[Hasan Minhaj]

There's nothing new. As Joe, what makes it like, is that you were really just like, I got nothing.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And that was so appropriate for the ending.

[Nava Kaplan]

That's where Joe was. Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I do remember your poor neck. You were just like, I get. I don't have anything left. He was just utterly spent.

[Sophie Ansari]

The last thing you guys shot, it was the last.

[Hasan Minhaj]

That was the last thing other than the final.

[Pen Badgley]

Final scene.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. Because you had to shave your head and. Yeah, that's right.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah. So it was my last speaking line.

[Hasan Minhaj]

And I was just like. I just couldn't do it.

[Pen Badgley]

I was like, I can't do this anymore.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It was perfect. And I mean, also, like, we had been. We'd spent the previous at least week and a half doing the fight and like the scene. Oh my God, Frankie made me weep when I watched that. Oh my God. Oh, yeah.

[Nava Kaplan]

Oh God. Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

It is like one of the best performances of the entire series. Just that moment where it's like, you're the monster.

[Hasan Minhaj]

You're the monster hunter. My best.

[Pen Badgley]

He's so good.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It's so good. Gonna cry.

[Sophie Ansari]

But then Bronte's reaction was so good.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. The subsequent scene with you and am I unlovable? And like the, like the screaming and the tension and then the fighting and then the water and it was just a lot. It was a lot. And yeah, I love, I loved shooting that episode. Lee probably wouldn't think I loved shooting that episode, but I.

[Pen Badgley]

He knows you did.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I did love it. Like, it was so funny. Lee. By the time we got onto nights, because we started on mornings, we started in the daytime and we got onto nights and I was like, hey, what's up? He was like, where was this Maddie? Like last week when we were shooting at 6:00 in the morning? I was like, I'm just not a morning person. I'm sorry. I'm not gonna be super stoked to be awake at 6am Sorry about that. I was shooting that final scene, saying that line. It was a thing though, was like, I tend to overthink. I like to imbue a lot into the characters. And playing Janine for so many years, I. There's so many layers vocalizations and like switches in what she's thinking about and like swift turns and this was so practical. It really was. I just have to lay out really what you are and what you've done and that I'm not going to let you get away with it. I would not give you the. I would not grant you the favor of just killing you. Like it's. It's not the ending that you deserve. And we'll talk about the ending more, but in another episode of another episode of podcast like.

[Pen Badgley]

And subscribe.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Big fan. Leave comments in the section.

[Nava Kaplan]

We do actually have to. Okay, so we have a final question.

[Pen Badgley]

Yeah. And just. I'll do.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

If you could go back to 12 year old Maddie little Mads, what would you say or do?

[Hasan Minhaj]

Oh boy, that really makes me want to cry. I feel a lot of tenderness for 12 year old Maddie. She was very scared of everything. Scared of life, scared of like who she would be and what she would do. And I would just tell her. I would just give her a hug, really, and tell her that what Makes her feel so different is what makes her special. I know that sounds so trite, but.

[Pen Badgley]

No, not at all.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah, being 12 is hard. Being 12 is really hard. Just, I mean, being any age is hard, but especially now, like, being in my 30s and, like, the day I turned 30, everything just felt so much easier. Like, I granted myself so much more, like, love than I'd ever given myself before. And I would tell her just to keep. I don't know. God, it gets better. It gets so much better.

[Pen Badgley]

It does.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Also, don't take that one job.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah, perfect.

[Hasan Minhaj]

It'll get you out of being a waitress. But at what cost?

[Pen Badgley]

It is amazing that at 12 it can be as hard as it is. And that if you told that 12 year old, like, it's gonna be okay, listen, by the time you're 30, it's gonna feel light. They'd be like.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Like 30.

[Sophie Ansari]

Yeah.

[Hasan Minhaj]

18 years.

[Pen Badgley]

I thought you were gonna say by like, 14.

[Hasan Minhaj]

But also, 14 is easier than 12, and, you know, 16 is easier than 14, and 18 is easier than that. And 25 is easier than 23. And. And. And aging is a gift that is not granted to every person. And I am so grateful with every year that passes. I'm turning 33 a week from tomorrow, and I'm so excited for what 33 brings. It's my Jesus year. Yeah.

[Pen Badgley]

Hopefully not the same outcome.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Yeah. No, I have nothing to say.

[Nava Kaplan]

I should have known that you would say something like that.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Don't. I know I'm getting married. It's very exciting. Like, it's so incredible to close a chapter on the Handmaid's Tale and to finish out the final chapter of you, which I've been a fan of. I watched it on Lifetime. Like, I'll tell anybody who will listen.

[Pen Badgley]

I didn't know that part.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I did. I've told you that. But you don't remember. Well, I didn't listen. But I wasn't listening because. Because you weren't talking. Just kidding. Joking. But I. It's a beautiful chapter to close. And. And maybe I'll be able to play a woman who's not suffering. So many comments on my Instagram are like, janine, now you're gonna go like, what are you doing, girl? Yeah. Can't we just give this girl a happy ending in some way? Because, you know, everybody's assuming, you know, I end up in the box, which I do, and I end up dead, which I don't. And, yeah, maybe something new, but maybe not. Maybe I'll do the sequel. Me.

[Sophie Ansari]

Oh, my Gosh, love it.

[Pen Badgley]

It's the sixth and final season.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Amazing.

[Nava Kaplan]

Well, Maddy, thank you so much for joining us.

[Hasan Minhaj]

Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be on podcrust.

[Sophie Ansari]

Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kaplan and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our ed done by Clips Agency. Special thanks to the folks at La Monada. And as always, you can listen to PodCrush ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all. Bye.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I'm so excited to be here.

[Pen Badgley]

So, you know, actually, I don't know if you two know. You're, you're. You are. Is it right to call you a fan of this show? No.

[Hasan Minhaj]

I have listened and I love the TikTok. I think I might be a fan of the podcast TikTok. Hey, I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls who Code and Moms First. I consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. So why is it that in midlife, as I'm about to turn 50, I feel so stuck? Join me as I try to find the answer on my so called midlife from Lemonada Media. I talk to experts and extraordinary guests about divorce, exercise, menopause, sex, drugs and more to understand what we're going through and how to make the most of it. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Hear new episodes each week ad free on Amazon Music. You can also ask Alexa Alexa, play Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan on Amazon Music and she will.