[Rerun] Ariana Grande (Part 1)

Summary

Podcrushed — Ariana Grande (Part 1): Detailed Summary

Podcast: Podcrushed
Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guest: Ariana Grande
Episode Date: December 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this special rerun of Podcrushed, Penn, Nava, and Sophie welcome Ariana Grande for a heartfelt and often hilarious conversation about her middle school years, family influences, beginnings as a performer, and her reflections on growing up in the spotlight. The episode navigates the unique pressures of child stardom, the pursuit of creative passions, and Ariana’s evolving relationship with her own artistry and mental health. The tone is candid, playful, and sometimes poignant—offering listeners both laughs and insight into the challenges and joys of Ariana’s journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ariana’s Early Family Life and Musical Roots (00:02–06:24)

• Family Inspiration:

  • Ariana describes her family as both creative and business-oriented ("my mom is like, business...she’s the CEO of a company...my dad is sort of the more creative one...photography...painting").
  • Her home was theatrical, with everyday performances and a strong encouragement of expression. "My grandpa loved to sing too. Every time we finished dinner, he would sing 'Good night, I hate to leave you now, but have a good time.'" (00:02; 13:15)

• Supportive but Non-pushy Parenting:

  • "My mom wasn't a stage mom...she would make sure I was prepared and support me, but she never told me that it was what I should be doing..." (14:48)

• Early Signs of Being an Out-of-the-Box Kid:

  • Ariana recounts how her first screen name was "JimCarreyFan42" and admits, "I was always a little off. I was always a little different." (04:47–06:31)

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2. Comedy, Music, and the Importance of Laughter (06:51–09:26)

• Comedy as a Lifeline:

  • “I loved singing first and foremost, but I remember that comedy always gave me a different feeling than singing did. Laughter is just the best thing in the entire world to me.” (07:29)
  • Ariana discusses infusing her playful side into her music, especially her more tongue-in-cheek pop songs.

• On Performing and SNL:

  • “Your appearances on SNL are pretty show stopping and phenomenal.” —Penn (07:51)
  • Ariana addresses rumors that she lip-synced during her famous SNL impressions skit: “Some people thought that I was lip syncing in some of the...really? I was like, I’m upset, but thank you!” (10:52)

• Penn’s Compliment:

  • “Shut up is one of the best pop openers of an album of the last probably 10 or 20 years. I really love it, and it’s so funny, but it’s so well crafted.” —Penn (08:32)

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3. Middle School Experiences & First Public Performances (13:59–21:04)

• Recalling Her First Big Performance:

  • Ariana’s grandmother found an ad for tryouts to sing the national anthem at a Panthers game; "My Nona actually saw the ad...and she took me for my audition." (15:10)
  • At 8 years old, Ariana performed at the game and recounts getting hit by hockey pucks and being comforted with “tons of ice and they put me on the Zamboni, and I was like, I'm not hurt anymore.” (19:41–20:12)

• Early Improv:

  • Ariana shares a mischievous story of adding an unscripted bit in her school play: “I ripped the little stinger off of my costume and I stung the lead character and I flew off unprompted.” (15:57)

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4. Transition to Broadway & Early Career (21:40–24:21)

• Thirteen: The Musical:

  • Ariana and her best friend Aaron auditioned together: “He was at the Jim Carrey birthday party…we both got it together.” (21:47)
  • She credits Liz Gillies (later her Victorious co-star) as one of her earliest close friends in show business.

• Community Theater Roots:

  • “I loved acting, and I loved singing and being a part of any show that I could find.” (22:45)
  • Both Ariana and Penn share memories of community theater and musical auditions.

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5. Middle School, Crushes & Adolescent Embarrassment (31:50–43:00)

• Not Attending Regular School:

  • Ariana explains she had tutoring while on Broadway and during TV projects. She talks about California's “Chesapeake” test for young performers. (31:57–33:23)

• Strict Parenting, Secret Crushes:

  • "My mom was really strict, so I didn't...I didn't have a lot of crushes that I was allowed to explore when I was super young. But I had them and they were there..." (33:32)
  • First kiss in the hallway, rushed and nerves—relatable, bashful anecdotes abound.

• On Embarrassment and OCD:

  • Ariana reveals her younger self faced “really bad OCD” (rituals like having to sing through ‘Defying Gravity’ three times in the shower). (40:01; 43:03)
  • She reflects on not easily getting embarrassed: "I could easily laugh at myself..." (42:32)

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6. Creativity as Solace & Artistic Aspirations (43:45–45:18)

• Art as Distraction & Healing:

  • OCD symptoms faded as she found community and busy work in theater and music: “It goes away when I’m creating and when I’m busy with work...when art is in the forefront...I don’t have time to think about anything else.” (43:45)

• First Song:

  • Ariana wrote her first song at 12, titled "Let It Rain." “Let what rain? It? All of it. Baby, I’m open...Why are you writing that at like 12?” (38:46)

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7. Saturn Return, Growth, and Artistic Evolution (45:18–48:39)

• Penn’s Saturn Analogy (one of the most memorable moments):

  • “[Saturn’s] Roche point...its gravity so much lesser than Saturn’s that the front of it starts to rip apart from the back of it...If there’s any validity to this idea of Saturn returns, it’s that a belief system...is being torn apart, but then it’s being reorganized...it surrounds you in totally new fashion and form.” —Penn (45:13–47:57)

• Ariana’s Self-Reflection:

  • “It definitely feels like a certain coming home to myself has taken place over the last, like, two and a half years or something. People say that's what happens when you turn 30.” (44:54)
  • She discusses using style and glam as armor (“I wanted to be me less and less and to give myself to people less and less...”) and now finding contentment in more authenticity. (49:03–50:20)

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8. Grace, Resilience, and the Challenges of Public Life (50:20–54:12)

• Processing Change and Criticism:
  • On public scrutiny: “A comment section of anything is literally the manifestation of your own personal fears. Like, wow. That thing that I thought that maybe was just an insecurity that had no place...that person is saying exactly that.” —Penn (51:01)
  • Ariana describes working with a therapist to adjust to the impossibility of pleasing everyone: "I have to make peace with and become healthy about so that I can continue to make art..." (52:09)
  • Before ‘Eternal Sunshine,’ she wasn’t happy with her music career—now she expresses joy and fulfillment in her work. (53:01–54:12)

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9. Reflections on Child Stardom & Industry Safety (55:36–67:47)

• Victorious & Community:

  • Ariana and Liz Gillies, longtime friends, both transitioned together to Victorious: “We were young performers who just wanted to do this with our lives more than anything.” (56:41)

• On Child Acting & Industry Reform:

  • “I think that the environment needs to be made safer if kids are going to be acting…There should be in the contract something about therapy is mandatory twice a week or thrice a week or something like that.” (57:40)
  • Discusses the exploitation that can occur on sets, and the need for structures like therapy for both children and adults in show business.
  • “The environment just needs to be made a lot safer all around...I’m still in real time reprocessing my relationship to it.” (57:40–59:56)

• Industry as Microcosm of Broader Issues:

  • Ariana and Penn agree that workplace abuse and exploitation aren’t unique to show business; these patterns exist everywhere.
    • “If you ask anyone who’s ever worked ever...if they've been sexually harassed or even assaulted...it's everywhere.” (61:55–62:47)

• Nava’s Fire & Brimstone Reflection:

  • Shares a quote: “Children are a trust which no community can neglect with impunity.”
  • Discusses how children in entertainment are both infantilized and expected to act as adults, exposing them to inappropriate situations. (63:13–64:14)

• On Pushing Boundaries in Children’s TV:

  • Ariana reflects on how, at the time, risqué humor was seen as cutting-edge: “We were told and convinced as well that it was the cool differentiation...Now looking back...I'm like, that's damn.” (64:44–65:16)
  • Points out the structural failures—adults approved, enabled, or ignored inappropriate content or circumstances.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Comedy as Intimacy:

“There's something about making a person laugh that's like, we're comfortable. We trust each other. We're here. Like, laughter is just the best thing in the entire world to me.” —Ariana (07:29)

On Creating Art as Healing:

“Everything really subsides when...art is in the forefront of my life, I don't have time to think about anything else.” —Ariana (43:44)

Penn’s Saturn Rings Analogy:

“If there's any validity to this idea of Saturn returns, it's that a belief system...is being torn apart, but then it's being reorganized. Rather than a single point, it surrounds you entirely in totally new fashion and form.” —Penn (47:37)
“You've made the rings. You took the thing...You've decorated yourself with this beautiful new gem, which is Eternal Sunshine.” —Penn (48:05)

On Letting Go of Embarrassment:

“I am not like, easily embarrassed. I just feel like...I'll make like a terrible joke and carry on and I don't know. I feel like I am like, I could easily laugh at myself.” —Ariana (42:32)

On Industry Change:

“We're told it's normal, and it's changing. And I think that's a really nice place to see the world in unison standing in a place where we're like, that's changing. Yeah, that's unacceptable.” —Ariana (62:53)

On Therapy and Support in Show Business:

“If you're going to be doing this on this scale...there should be an element that is mandatory...of a professional person to unpack what this experience...does to you at a young age, at any age.” —Ariana (66:38)

Nava’s Praise for Ariana’s Grace:

“I just feel like grace has to be one of your lead attributes as a person. Like, you seem to have grace.” —Nava (68:11)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Family Stories: 00:02–06:24
• Comedy & Early Performance: 06:51–09:26
• National Anthem, Childhood Theater: 13:59–21:04
• Broadway/Thirteen: The Musical: 21:40–24:21
• Middle School, First Crushes, Embarrassment: 31:50–43:00
• On OCD & Rituals: 40:01; 43:03
• Artistic Aspirations/First Song: 43:45–45:18
• Saturn Analogy & Artistic Evolution: 45:18–48:39
• Public Life & Personal Growth: 50:20–54:12
• Child Stardom & Industry Safety: 55:36–67:47
• Concluding Reflections: 68:11–end

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Tone & Final Impressions

This episode artfully balances humor, nostalgia, and genuine introspection, staying true to Podcrushed’s spirit of exploring the emotional complexities and awkward moments of adolescence. Ariana's openness about mental health, early ambition, personal evolution, and the realities of child stardom delivers immense value—both for longtime fans and listeners simply seeking a relatable, honest conversation about growing up, creativity, and grace under pressure.

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Memorable Moment:
Penn’s Saturn analogy draws audible delight and earnest reflection from Ariana, setting up one of the most thoughtful exchanges on personal growth via planetary metaphor.

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For listeners:
You’ll walk away knowing both the playful, quick-witted Ariana and the thoughtful adult who’s still navigating, with grace, the complex journey from child star to mature artist.

Transcript

[Ariana Grande]

Lemonade. My grandpa loved to sing too. Every time we finished dinner, he would sing Good night. I hate to leave you now, but have a good time at the end of every single dinner.

[Nava]

So sweet. Oh, my gosh.

[Penn]

Yeah, that's really charming.

[Guest Host or Producer]

Welcome to podcrushed.

[Penn]

We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

[Nava]

I'm Nava.

[Sophie]

And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties hatching plans to.

[Nava]

Sneak into R rated. Okay, who am I kidding? PG 13 rated mov movies.

[Penn]

Well, if you've clicked on this episode, then you might know what's coming. I suppose that's true for all of them. The one thing that's an amazing start.

[Ariana Grande]

Just you wait.

[Penn]

There's more. We have today, the one, the only, Ariana Grande. You might know her most famously from starring alongside me in a music video.

[Ariana Grande]

From the Boy Is Mine Video. I played the cat.

[Penn]

Yeah, she played the cat. You might. I don't know if you remember that part. Yeah, she's. She's got a new record out. It's been out for a little bit now. Even newer down the pipeline is wicked. So we're talking about her whole life, but you know, we just. We get into Saturn, you're going to want to know about that.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, boy, do we. New depths of Saturn.

[Penn]

New depths. Yeah, please, please stick around. You're not going to want to miss this one.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me. The show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor, and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from lemonade Media premieres November 12th. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Steve Burns]

Hey, it's me, Steve Burns. And I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right?

[Nava]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

And look at us now, like we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown up stuff and there's special guests like Jamie Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media Alive with Steve burns is coming September 17th. Wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube.

[Penn]

All right, well, in addition to introducing my socks, we have with us Ariana Grande.

[Guest Host or Producer]

Thank you.

[Ariana Grande]

Hello. Thank you for having me.

[Penn]

Thank you so much for coming.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm gonna say I'm honored and excited.

[Nava]

We're so excited.

[Penn]

We're just gonna dive right in. We typically start around 12. From what I understand, you had. Now, this may or may not be true. We'll know if our research is it.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm sorry.

[Sophie]

Wait, wait, wait. Before we actually dive right in, I do think we have to address how different this episode is.

[Ariana Grande]

No, it's so different. I've seen it.

[Penn]

In what way? I'm not sure what you're talking about. In which way?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I walked in.

[Penn]

Is it my socks?

[Ariana Grande]

That's it. It is. It's Epen's socks. It's that.

[Nava]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Yeah.

[Nava]

Ariana was like, is this a new setup for season three? Yeah, like, it's a new setup for you.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

That's crazy. That's so nice.

[Penn]

Well, we're doing sort of one offs this year. You know, we just sort of like, we vibe to our guests. And you warrant a giant wooden studio built in probably the 1980s or 70s.

[Guest Host or Producer]

Wow.

[Penn]

When this was necessary to record music.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm deeply honored. It's so cool. I was like, wow. Rebranding. What's going on? Like, this is so fun.

[Penn]

All wood, all time.

[Nava]

Matthew Hessey is gonna cry when he hears you say that. Because for his episode, you had, like, that Makeshi wardrobe where he was like, pen, are you trapped?

[Ariana Grande]

And I can't.

[Penn]

It definitely looks like a kill room. That little cottage of mine that I have not redecorated. It's a place that I typically am in for the remote interviews when we're on Zoom.

[Ariana Grande]

How fun. But this is extraordinary.

[Penn]

This is a much bigger kill room.

[Ariana Grande]

Wow. Thank you. I'm glad you thought of me for this. Thank you so much.

[Guest Host or Producer]

Wow.

[Ariana Grande]

I can hear things differently. I mean, out of the headphones, just sounds. Yeah.

[Penn]

I've always loved recording studios. I absolutely love them. And I'm interested in your relationship to that, but we'll get into that first. Is this true or false? Did you have a screen Name? Jim Carreyfan 42. That's true. Is this true?

[Ariana Grande]

Absolutely true. Well, he was 42 at the time.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

So that's where the number came from. Because Jim Carrey fan was taken, so I had to put a number, and it was 42 because that was his age. And I believe that year I. I should stop. But I'll tell you, I had a birthday party for him.

[Guest Host or Producer]

For him?

[Ariana Grande]

For him?

[Penn]

For him.

[Sophie]

Was he there?

[Ariana Grande]

No, he couldn't make it. But yeah.

[Penn]

What's his birthday? Do you remember?

[Ariana Grande]

I actually don't remember now. But the weirdest thing, the most. Give me a chance. The most cosmic thing is it actually happened to be when I announced my album Eternal Sunshine, which is obviously named after the movie, and I announced it on his birthday, coincidentally.

[Penn]

Wow. And you still don't remember what that date is?

[Ariana Grande]

No, I don't remember. Still something with a seven in it. Something with a seven.

[Nava]

Ariana, who came to the Jim Carrey birthday that you hosted?

[Ariana Grande]

My friend Aaron Simon. Gross. Okay. I love. It's still my best.

[Penn]

Amazing.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nava]

Did you guys do like Jim Carrey themed things?

[Ariana Grande]

No, we just watched the movies and I think my mom had like Jim Carrey themed things. That's very cute. Spectacular. Yeah, we had like the mask. My mom had like little like paper masks.

[Nava]

That's very cute.

[Penn]

So your mom was very supportive.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, she's always been very supportive of Jim Carrey. Yeah. Obsessions.

[Penn]

So what age was this though? Are you, were you 12 or 10?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I don't know. I think I was. Well, if he was 42, I must have been. I have no idea. I don't know how old he is now, so I don't know.

[Penn]

But you had a screen name.

[Ariana Grande]

But. Yeah, that was my screen name. So like that was, so I was young and it was like one of my first screen names. I remember.

[Sophie]

Tell us a little bit about you because I feel like not many 10 or 12 year old girls would choose that as a screen name.

[Nava]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. I was always a little off. I was always a little different. No, but you remember the days when like you would have a few screen names.

[Penn]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. That was like the cool thing in a way. Messages and like rainbow fonts, like certain people could change. Changed the fonts. It was in that era, it was like that those days, that was. Yeah, that's where we're starting.

[Penn]

That is what we're starting. Well, do you think that, that, I mean, you know, your relationship to comedy is to me a really interesting one. You know, I don't think you've ever left it. Personally, I feel like it's in your music in just the right amounts. You know what I mean? Your appearances on SNL are pretty show stopping and phenomenal.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you.

[Penn]

And then of course, you know, you started not much later than 12, like doing these comedy shows was that was, was. I mean, what did you think of comedy then? Was it, was it your favorite thing? Was it related to you as a performer or.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I think first of all, thank you. That's so nice. But I loved comedy first. I mean, I loved singing first and foremost, but I remember that comedy always gave me a different feeling than singing did. Singing, I think, takes itself so seriously. And I love laughing so much. Like, there's something about making a person laugh that's like, we're comfortable. We trust each other. We're here. Like, laughter is just the best thing in the entire world to me. So, yeah, I don't know. It was always something I loved a lot. And then I think when pop sort of took over for a while, I lost a little bit of, like, that light, and I kind of, like, I missed it, I think, subconsciously, in a very big way. So, yeah, I don't know. Looking forward to kind of. I'm glad you said that you could hear it a tiny bit in the music because I don't like to take things too seriously in some of my more, like, playful pop songs. I think it's a nice, you know, place to put some comedy sometimes. But, yeah. Thank you. I don't know.

[Penn]

Yeah, I know. I really. I really. I really hear it, especially. I don't know if you remember this the first time I DMed you about this. Well, yes, it was about this, but the way I shot my shot was I said that Shut up is one of the best pop openers of an album of the last probably 10 or 20 years. I really love it, and it's so funny, but it's so well crafted.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you.

[Penn]

And that to me, again, that you could go on snl, as you do. Okay, so, fine, so somebody can be funny. But that you. Yeah, to me, I just. I've always heard it in the music, so I think it's really cool. It's not easy.

[Ariana Grande]

In my mind, I couldn't believe that you had, like, heard my music or I've been watching you forever.

[Penn]

I would have to live under a lock, which I nearly do. But I have still heard your music.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, thank you. But also to lead with that, like, that's so. That's like. I was like, whoa, this is too much for me. Thank you, though, Pen.

[Sophie]

Also, the interesting thing about him is that he's incapable of lying. So if he's gonna write, that's a good thing with something that he likes that you've done.

[Ariana Grande]

You know, it's fear.

[Penn]

It was really hard for me to start doing ads at first. In the podcast, I was like, I had to figure out how to get behind this ad. I remember one time when I didn't have the Time I took, like, an hour to record, right?

[Ariana Grande]

Don't say it.

[Penn]

And I won't say for which one. I won't say for which one, but it took me an hour, like, of time I did not have anyway, because.

[Nava]

It'S like, can I even.

[Ariana Grande]

What's my intention behind it? Where am I coming from? In this ad?

[Penn]

It wasn't about acting. It was like, I'm saying something about this product that, like, I need to believe in some way. Otherwise, like, ah. Can I say this?

[Sophie]

His out is usually. And that's why Sophie loves.

[Nava]

He's like, so, Nova, what do you think about.

[Ariana Grande]

That's so funny.

[Nava]

We'll have to cut the bathrooms and kill us. But, Ariana, I just want to say one thing. It'll take us out of the time period, but there's an SNL skit you did where I think it was like, Tidal was having a power outage or something, and you had to do all the different singers. Yeah, it's one of my favorites.

[Penn]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nava]

It's one of my favorite skits. And I watch it, like, honestly, like, 10 times a year, and I show it to anyone that I'm trying to impress. Like, I know we're gonna laugh together, you know, so there's like, a cute guy. I'm like, have you seen this?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh. Oh, my God.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Yeah.

[Nava]

And anyone that I want to think that I have good taste in, like, humor, I just. And it always hits. People always love it. And a lot of people don't know you're that funny. So it's, like, unexpected.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you.

[Nava]

But I just love it. It's so good.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you. I was so bummed because some people thought that I was lip syncing in some of the. In some of them. Really?

[Nava]

Cause you're that good. You're like, no, that was Shakira.

[Ariana Grande]

I was like, I'm upset, but thank you. I was like, well, I'm.

[Sophie]

And thanks.

[Ariana Grande]

No, I'm kidding. But, yeah, thank you. That's fun. It was. I love. I love doing snl. I. Yeah. It's so thrilling. It's so much fun. And there are so many things that get cut, too, that are so ticklish. And it's just fun to be in that building. It's so vast, and everyone's so creative and funny and brilliant. It's just. It's fun.

[Nava]

Your recent one with Bo and Yang, when you guys did the Moulin Rouge bit, was crazy, hysterical.

[Ariana Grande]

The most fun I've ever had in my life. I almost didn't make it through any of it. I love Bowen Yang so much. He's so brilliant. He's so beautiful and wicked. I can't wait for people to see.

[Nava]

We have a whole section.

[Penn]

We're in this room. We have.

[Ariana Grande]

My other screen name is Bowen yang. Fan at 30. I don't know.

[Penn]

So let's go back to you growing up, like, was your household, I mean, because you're just. I mean, even more now. It just feels to me like it's so clear. You're a performer through and through. Was it a performing household? I mean, where does it come from?

[Guest Host or Producer]

What were your parents like?

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. So my parents are kind of polar opposite, but if you know me, it kind of makes sense knowing them and then how I came about. Cause my mom is like, business. She's also very creative and talented. But she does. I mean, she's the CEO of a company that designs and manufactures, like, telecommunication equipment, like PAs for, like, ferries and like. Yeah. So it's very different. And my dad is sort of the more creative one. He does architectural design and photography and graphic design and he paints and, you know, so I'm kind of smack in the middle of the two of them. But my brother was in a lot of theater and in a lot of school shows growing up. He was on Broadway. And so it was a very theatrical household. Even though the only two who have pursued it or Frankie and me. But my mom was always singing and doing karaoke nights. And my dad was always singing as well. And my grandpa. My grandpa loved to sing, too. Every time we finished dinner, he would sing Good night, I hate to leave you now, but have a good time at the end of every single dinner.

[Nava]

So sweet. Oh, my gosh.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Penn]

That's really charming.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, he was the best.

[Penn]

Did any of them have anything like a voice like yours?

[Ariana Grande]

I mean, I think so, but I love them. I don't know. My grandpa had big belt, like, he would sing along to Frank Sinatra with all his heart. And my mom has a beautiful voice. My dad loves to sing and has a beautiful voice. He has a beautiful voice and he's a beautiful painter. My aunt Mare is in a band as well. My aunt Mare is a musician. My uncle Craig, they have a band that's on my dad's side. And my cousin Hallie's a singer. So lots of art, but my parents were not pursuing it.

[Penn]

Right, right, right.

[Ariana Grande]

Was that an answer? Was that any?

[Penn]

I don't even remember my question, but I asked a question.

[Ariana Grande]

Sorry, I'm Long Wing household.

[Sophie]

Well, that made me curious because you said Frankie was into performing. He was on Broadway. And I feel like if you have an older sibling who is really good at something or pursuing something, sometimes that makes a younger sibling shy away from.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my gosh. It sounds like that doesn't know my idol. Yeah. Up to him so much, and I still do. He's amazing. But he went to Muhlenberg, and I loved seeing him in his shows there. And even before then, he went to Pine Crest, and I would see him in those shows, too. And, yeah, I was always his biggest fan, and I was like, I want to do that.

[Nava]

That's so sweet. You've talked a lot about your Nona. Your Nonna is on your new album. And I'm curious, what was your relationship with her like when you were little? Like, how much of an influence did she have in your life?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, my grandparents, my whole family has always been so supportive, but in the healthiest way. Not pushy. Like, my mom wasn't a stage mom. She was the first person to get me where I wanted to go. Like, if I was like, I would love to go to this audition. She would take me there and make sure I was prepared and support me, but she never told me that it was what I should be doing because she thought I was talented or because, you know, she was like, are you sure? My family was very supportive but very protective as well. But my grandparents. My Nona actually saw the ad in the newspaper to sing the national anthem at the Panthers game, and she took me for my audition.

[Penn]

So, Nona, were you eight or nine then?

[Ariana Grande]

I think I was eight, yeah.

[Penn]

Wow. So that was your first. Was that your first audition and first performance?

[Ariana Grande]

I think that was my first public performance. Yeah. I was 8. I don't know what I would have done before other than, like, playing the bumblebee in my school play, which I did. Yes. And I made a little. I worked a nice little bit in there. I improv'd it. I didn't tell anyone I was gonna do it. Got a big laugh. I was very proud.

[Sophie]

That's brave at eight.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I think I was just supposed to, like, fly by and exit. And I. Before I did, I ripped the little stinger off of my costume and I stung the lead character, and I flew off unprompted. But I'm talking really young. That's improv. And also, like, ruined a costume.

[Elizabeth Craft]

That's.

[Ariana Grande]

And I'm sorry. This is my public apology for. To the costume department, the preschool. Sorry.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Penn]

You should know that I once Sang the national anthem. Also at like a local. It was a. AAA baseball game in Washington state.

[Ariana Grande]

Why haven't I seen this?

[Penn]

Well, it's not on record.

[Nava]

He paid someone to bury the footage.

[Penn]

This is not a lie. I forgot the words in the middle.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh my goodness. It's a tricky one. Yeah. Doesn't it feel like it can kind.

[Sophie]

Of like go in circles?

[Ariana Grande]

It can. It can fake you out.

[Nava]

Wait, so what did you do, Pen? Did you hum?

[Penn]

No. So I really just. In the middle, I just forgot that word.

[Ariana Grande]

Which word?

[Penn]

I don't remember.

[Guest Host or Producer]

It doesn't.

[Penn]

No, it doesn't at all.

[Nava]

It just doesn't even remember the word. There's an English word that never.

[Penn]

You know, I'm facing like out into the sky and the mountains and the whole crowd is behind me.

[Ariana Grande]

How old were you?

[Penn]

I was a bit older, so I was 13.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh no, that was.

[Penn]

It's quite embarrassing. And I just paused. It didn't freak me out actually. And then I. I just went. And then I hear the whole crowd chanting the word. But because it's a crowd, it's very hard to make out. And so then I actually said what.

[Nava]

That'S best case scenario.

[Guest Host or Producer]

And then.

[Penn]

And then I finally heard it and I go, oh, thanks. And then I just finished.

[Ariana Grande]

And then, and then.

[Penn]

And both teams were so supportive. They were just like, yeah, you know, slapping me on the back because they assumed that I was mortified. But I have to be honest, like.

[Ariana Grande]

No, that wasn't it.

[Penn]

Really.

[Ariana Grande]

That's really sick.

[Penn]

I wasn't really because I don't know, it just.

[Nava]

I would have thrown up for sure.

[Penn]

You definitely would have. The one person who was not supportive was the person who hired me for it. She was like, well, I guess I could have been more prepared.

[Nava]

You're a kid.

[Penn]

Yeah. I mean, you should hire.

[Ariana Grande]

That is deeply traumatic. You can't say that to a 13 year old. That's. Can.

[Nava]

Can a viewer please find this footage and DM it to us?

[Sophie]

There's going to be an uptick in Google searches. Anthem.

[Penn]

There's definitely no. There's definitely no footage. It's before phones, you know.

[Guest Host or Producer]

Oh man.

[Nava]

Yeah, before he's trying to throw us off the phone.

[Penn]

Yeah, before all there is.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, that's. He would have filmed the camera hadn't been.

[Penn]

So I'm curious if you can recall. This is the genesis of you as a performer here. We gotta. We're building a story.

[Ariana Grande]

Okay.

[Penn]

Do you recall either afterward feeling that I want more of this? Were you just like, eh, you Know, like, I'm wondering if you have any core memories there.

[Ariana Grande]

I think I didn't have much of a relationship to the song at the time. I think I was 8, and I was like, these are the words. I'll sing him.

[Penn]

Just perform it, you know, like you got off a stage or the ice or whatever.

[Ariana Grande]

I, like, felt so happy and proud. And the funniest thing about that video, to me is how I, like a. I feel like I look exactly the same as I did in that video. Like, that's exactly still everything.

[Penn]

I didn't even know there's a video.

[Ariana Grande]

There's a video. It's really funny because when I'm done, the way I whip my head and walk away is too crazy. It's a little too much. I liked it a little too much back then. It was really funny. I loved it. I had so much fun. I wanted to do it again.

[Penn]

Did you get hit by a puck?

[Ariana Grande]

I did. I got hit by two pucks. But I'm a big. I'm a big Panthers fan. Still nothing can take me away.

[Nava]

Where did the puck hit you?

[Ariana Grande]

Once was the palm of my hand.

[Penn]

Cause you were like this.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, because my. Well, because my dad went to cover me, and they went to. And I didn't know what was happening, so I went like this, and it got me here. Oh, man. And I don't remember what the other. I think it was the same thing twice. Obviously, the other time. Yeah, that's where my memory went.

[Sophie]

That's wild.

[Nava]

That can be so dangerous.

[Ariana Grande]

No. Yeah, it was. But they really. Oh, my gosh. They. They put me on. They got me tons of ice, and they put me on the Zamboni, and I was like, I'm not hurt anymore. I love this. I was, like, crying. I was crying and smiling at the same time.

[Penn]

You were already learning how to. How to smile through the pain of.

[Ariana Grande]

The performance, and, boy, was. Did I need to learn quickly.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm kidding. Joking. That's dark. But no, I was like. And then. Yeah, yeah, Dark. That was dark.

[Penn]

No, no, I don't think it was dark at all. It reminds me of something you said on the video, which we'll talk about later, but.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my God. Our video shoots. Yeah.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my God. Wait, what did I say?

[Penn]

Well, you did. You said that you. You know, you had, like. I think you hurt your foot somehow.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yes.

[Penn]

And we were just talking briefly about how, you know, you're constantly getting these. Not you. A performer is constantly just sort of.

[Ariana Grande]

Getting hurt and, like.

[Penn]

And you Just gotta go through it.

[Ariana Grande]

And, like, it's just not a priority. Yeah, you're just even like, mid take. I'm like, I cannot acknowledge this right now. And when we're done, I'll be like, hi, may I have a band aid? My pinky's on the ground. Certain things just aren't as important when you're in a take or something.

[Penn]

I fractured a rib in the middle of a take, and I was just like, you know, finished until the end. And then afterward, I was like, I can't move.

[Ariana Grande]

That's wild. And the sickest part of me was like, oh, God, I bet that was perfect on camera. I'm like, I bet that was great for the scene.

[Nava]

So at 8 years old, you're singing the national anthem. You're like, I love this.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I loved it.

[Nava]

What's sort of the next step? I know eventually you make it to Broadway, but.

[Ariana Grande]

What?

[Guest Host or Producer]

Pretty quickly.

[Penn]

I mean, this is the thing with you. It was, like, so fast.

[Ariana Grande]

It was fast. But I'm thankful that it wasn't too fast because I was still home with my family for, like, those years that I'm. You know, I was a teenager when I was on Broadway. I was already 13. So between then, I did a lot of, like, local family theater and community theater, and I was always on stage. I loved acting, and I loved singing and being a part of any show that I could find. But, yeah, then I went to audition with my best friend, Aaron Simon Gross, who was at the Jim Carrey birthday party for Thirteen, the musical. And we got it together, like he was. We both got it together.

[Sophie]

It's been so fun.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

So I got to do my first few jobs because then I met Liz Gillies, who's one of my best friends in the entire world. And then after 13 auditioned for Victorious and she and I got that together. So I've always had support and friendship around me. But, yeah, I didn't start too young. I feel like 13 is. Even though, you know, working at a young age is like, we can talk for 75 hours. There's much to say and we'll get there, I'm sure. But, you know, it was nice to have a friend, and it was nice to have not been seven or eight. What about. You were young?

[Penn]

Yeah, I mean, I was about the same. So let's see. I first started doing community theater at, like, 8 and 9, and then I was. Got my first, like.

[Ariana Grande]

What was your first role?

[Penn]

Will and Grace. Actually, I had, like, five lines on.

[Ariana Grande]

Will and Grace in community theater.

[Penn]

Oh, sorry. No, I thought you played.

[Ariana Grande]

All the other ones I met in the ever.

[Penn]

Well outside of school was Winthrop and Music man, you know Music Man.

[Ariana Grande]

A little. Enough.

[Penn]

You love musical theater?

[Ariana Grande]

I love musical theater.

[Nava]

Do you love music?

[Ariana Grande]

I don't. I'm not very well acquainted.

[Penn]

It could be the reason that I don't love musical theater because, you know, I loved the Experience, but I did not.

[Ariana Grande]

Maybe it wasn't the right show for you.

[Penn]

It wasn't. And then also my audition song was I can show you the world from Aladdin Fabulous, or A Whole New world is what it's called. But it starts with I can show you the world and oh my goodness, just I think of that audition process and cringe. However, I discovered that if it's done at its best. When I saw Rent, I loved Rent. Rent is, you know, as like a 20 year old.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Yes.

[Penn]

I could say. Okay, when it's done. Well, yeah, I do like a musical.

[Sophie]

I have a core memory around Rent. My whole family was obsessed with musicals. We would sing Wicked all the time. Rent.

[Ariana Grande]

Were you Glinda and Elphaba, may I ask?

[Sophie]

Oh, Glinda.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh my God. You don't have to sing Popular.

[Sophie]

Popular is the best song.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh my gosh.

[Sophie]

But no, but we would sing Rent all the time. And I had no idea what the songs were about. I was like 8 or 9 and my whole family went to go see it on Broadway, but you weren't allowed to bring like a 10 year old, really. So I had to go see the New York City Ballet, which I fell asleep in with my aunt while they.

[Ariana Grande]

Were all at Rent.

[Nava]

It was horrible.

[Penn]

Oh, Rent. Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

Wow, that's devastating. Yeah, nothing's crazier than loving Rent at a young age. Being young and loving the songs and then growing up and being like, whoa, holy shit, one song. Glory.

[Penn]

Honestly, all I knew about Rent was the south park episode. It's like 8, 8, 8, 8, 8,. 8, 8, 8. And I didn't realize how much of a specific kind of lampoon that was because I turned to my friend at the time it with after like four or five minutes and I was like, are they ever going to stop singing? And she looked at me like I was crazy.

[Nava]

And she was like, no, of course not.

[Penn]

And then I, you know, for the next 15 minutes I was like, what have I done? What have I done? What have I done? But then, you know, it won't make.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I. I don't want to delay us, but I have a crazy Rent tie in story. Tell us I was in a group called Kids who Care when I was really young with Aaron and all my friends. And we would sing for like different charity events or sometimes we would even go to old age homes and perform for the elderly. And one of the songs on our set list because we loved to sing it. And sometimes like when we would do shows, we would do, we would do what you own which says, you're dying in America.

[Penn]

Oh, that's right.

[Ariana Grande]

And one time we didn't, we didn't think, we didn't think. And we, we had a bunch of gigs in a row. Think about it. And we were just at this old age home and we were like, we got to the final chorus, we were like, you're dying in America at the end of the millennium. And we were like. And then.

[Penn]

But you know what, did they appreciate it?

[Ariana Grande]

They couldn't hear us. It was great. It was great. They couldn't hear anything. They were like, oh, they're so cute and no one heard anything and it was fabulous.

[Penn]

See, in my brain they were like, finally some hard hitting something where they.

[Ariana Grande]

Can really give it to us. Finally someone.

[Nava]

No, no, no. At the end of the millennium you got five years.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, but like we didn't think about it at all. And that final chorus approach. So good.

[Sophie]

And we'll be right back.

[Guest Host or Producer]

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[Penn]

He could speak probably nearly fluent Spanish.

[Guest Host or Producer]

If he had someone in the house to speak Spanish with. I really want to be able to liver on this. I would love to have, well, you know, deep conversations in English and maybe we can order food in Spanish. That's where we'll have to start naturally. Rosetta Stone has been really helpful for doing just that. I love how their True accent feature gives real time feedback on my pronunciation.

[Penn]

It's helping me feel a little bit.

[Guest Host or Producer]

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[Penn]

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[Ariana Grande]

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[Guest Host or Producer]

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[Sophie]

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[Sophie]

When you were on Broadway, you were in middle school, which is like, right in the pocket of our show. So you weren't going to traditional school at the time?

[Ariana Grande]

No, I was tutored. We all had, like a tutoring classroom. And.

[Penn]

Yeah, that's like just when you were on set or what would you say when you were at the theater? But then were you going to school in, like, other times?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I mean, I. Cause I wasn't sure if the show was going to take me out of North Broward Preparatory School in Coconut Creek forever. Coconut Creek? Yeah, Coconut Creek, Florida. Yeah. It's so Floridian.

[Penn]

So, wait, a prep school? Is that very. Is that very academic?

[Guest Host or Producer]

Was it a very.

[Penn]

Was it a very academic path you were on?

[Ariana Grande]

No, I was there. I mean, I was there. I think I kind of knew what I wanted to do and I was a good student. I think I was a good student. But. But, yeah, I was there and then I would. And I left to do the show and we had tutors, so some of the kids were still in school like I was, and we would just be doing our classes remotely. And then I did Victorious and I had to, like, finish the way that kid actors finish. And I don't even remember what it's called.

[Penn]

Yeah. Is it the proficiency?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. What is the test that you. Yeah, no, no, no, no, there is that, but. Yeah, that, but. No, there's like.

[Penn]

I mean, in California, you can work more hours. It's. Every state has a different one.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, every state.

[Penn]

So in California, it's called the Chesapeake.

[Ariana Grande]

California. Yes, yes, yes. The Chesapeake. That's what I meant. And then I was able to work, like, I was 30 at 15.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Exactly.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Yeah, I did the same thing.

[Ariana Grande]

Literally the same thing.

[Nava]

It's.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

So what was your experience around crushes at the time? Like your first loves, first heartbreaks?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, God. I mean, my mom was really strict, so I didn't.

[Penn]

Which means your crushes were even bigger and deeper.

[Ariana Grande]

How do you think I ended up where I am? No, as I. Yeah, I think my mom was very protective. And protective is a better word, but somewhat strict. Very protective. And I didn't have a lot of crushes that I was, like, allowed to explore when I was. Was super young. But I had them and they were there, but I didn't. Like. I had, like, my first kiss secretly in the hallway one time, and then.

[Penn]

I was, like, at a real school.

[Ariana Grande]

At a real school at North Broward in Coconut Creek. It was, like, quick, and I was like, this is bad. I'm gonna get in trouble and I need to leave. And I ran away. And I don't think I ever talked to him again.

[Nava]

But, yeah, he's still crying. He's still mourning that.

[Ariana Grande]

It was after school and before going to the school store, because there was a school store, and that's, like, what people did. And I wanted to be cool and I wanted to go to the school store.

[Nava]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. But I. Yeah, it was always a very. Like, I couldn't. I didn't want to, like, run home and be like. I had my first kiss. I was very nervous and scared.

[Nava]

Yeah, we'll cut this, because I've told this story before, but I think you'll find it cute. My first kiss was in a, like, spin the bottle game, sort of, something like that. And my parents were very strict. And then it was, like, at a kid's birthday party, whatever. And I went to every kid at the party crying, like, please don't tell my mom. And we're all like, why would we.

[Ariana Grande]

Why would we tell.

[Nava]

I was like, please don't tell my mom.

[Ariana Grande]

And then you have to leave this in. Because I feel seen and understand.

[Nava]

And then as soon as I got home, just, like, opened the door, mom was like, hi, Nevaeh. And I started crying, and I was like, I kissed that in.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my God.

[Nava]

Okay, that's just, like, no reaction.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. This is actually, like. This was my first kiss. I was like, a person that I can remember being. Because when I was in preschool, I kissed a lot of boys.

[Sophie]

Oh, really?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I think something, like, there's something extreme that happens to me. Like, you know, like, when I was young, I kissed a lot of boys, and I was very, like, fearless. And then I was, like, very nervous, and I was. I kissed one boy, and then never again until I was, like, 18.

[Nava]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Wow, that's.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, 16. That's not true at all.

[Chelsea Clinton]

It's okay.

[Sophie]

Don't worry.

[Ariana Grande]

Guys, I don't think I've ever thought about my life. I don't know what happened to me in my life at all, who I am.

[Penn]

It's because you were performing.

[Ariana Grande]

Been through it too.

[Penn]

It's the same for all of us.

[Ariana Grande]

Wait, why? I know it's because of the pockets. Because I'm professional. I don't remember anything. Guys. Wait. I was like, 14.

[Penn]

Yeah. Fair. No, you know what it is? Every year at that age is. Is so long.

[Ariana Grande]

I don't remember the chess P. I don't remember graduating. I don't remember anything.

[Penn]

It's. It's only. It's. It's only. I mean, honestly, I feel like. I feel like at that age, every year is just phenomenally long. It's its own timeline. The difference between 13 and 14 to a 13 and 14 year old is massive.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sophie]

Also, I've been thinking about this recently. Like, you need external markers of time. Like whether it's, you know, middle school, you know, was sixth grade to eighth grade, and so it happened at some point during those years, or like, if somebody moved house, then that's marker of time.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I have. No. Nothing.

[Penn]

Yeah, because you're so.

[Ariana Grande]

I actually have this too, in between the puck. Sorry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And today.

[Ariana Grande]

Sorry, go on. What?

[Penn]

I honestly, like, after leaving school formally at, like, 12 years old, you know, a lot of it blends together for me as well. So I feel you.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Strange. But we're finding it today.

[Penn]

I'm curious how you, like, whether you thought of yourself as an artist then or not. Like, how are you seeing the world? What do you think your greatest aspiration was at that time?

[Ariana Grande]

Time to sing. I just wanted to sing. I really loved it.

[Penn]

And what about, like, was acting connected? You know, because you were in musical theater then, did you. Did you always want to just sing, or at that time, were they really wed together?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, they were wed together because I wanted to be on Broadway. That was my first and only goal. I was like, I want to be on Broadway. I want to be in musicals. And I also love making music. That was the other thing that I loved doing. I would love to, like, go home and play on GarageBand and, like, I had, like, a looping machine that I would play with because Imogen Heap is my idol and my forever, all time number one inspiration, and I saw her use one on stage. So for Christmas, my mom surprised me with one. And I don't think it was, like, the same thing. It was. I think actually mine's used for the guitars or something at the time. But I don't know. But I would like play and loop my own vocals and just kind of like get. I would. I loved it so much. So I knew I wanted to pursue the arts in all. Any forms. I loved writing songs. I think I wrote my first song when I was like 12 and I. Yeah, I loved it. So I just loved it. I just wanted to create.

[Nava]

Do you remember what that song was about?

[Ariana Grande]

Let it rain.

[Nava]

Aw, that's a great little thing.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you so much. I thought I was like Mary J. Blige or something. I thought I was like Natasha Bedingfield, I thought. But I like it was very of that era. Yeah, yeah.

[Penn]

Let what rain it?

[Ariana Grande]

All of. Baby, I'm open. Just all of it. And like, why are you writing that at like 12? What are you talking about?

[Penn]

I mean, I wrote a song at 14, I think called Stay With Me, which is like, Stay with me tonight. Like, come on. We're all just regurgitating what we hear.

[Ariana Grande]

That's beautiful. Do you have it?

[Sophie]

It's actually.

[Nava]

We actually have. We can send you a clip of Evan Rachel Wood singing it. Cause she knew it.

[Penn]

So. Yeah, we were friends at that point and. And I. You know, it's funny, you're talking about a looping machine. I really wanted one. I. I had a four track. But I love to stack harmonies. I just love, love harmonies. It's, you know. Again, you. I could teach you a little bit about it.

[Nava]

I would like Stay with me Tonight.

[Ariana Grande]

Isn't that it? Can you give us a few? A few?

[Penn]

No, I don't know. See, that was not the lyric. See?

[Ariana Grande]

Evan.

[Penn]

Evan.

[Guest Host or Producer]

No.

[Ariana Grande]

Why does.

[Nava]

Everyone is just these.

[Penn]

I don't remember what it was, but it was not. We could go out walking south, talking. That was too rhymy. And I would not like. I remember that there was verification. It had something repeating.

[Nava]

Anyway, this is such an abrupt pivot. But we have a question we ask every guest, which is to tell us an embarrassing story from that sort of early adolescent period. If anything comes to mind.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh God, I don't know. And this sounds. Sounds like so stupid, but I. I feel like I am not like easily embarrassed. I just feel like I am like I'll make like a terrible joke and carry on and I don't know, but I don't know something embarrassing about that. I had really bad ocd.

[Sophie]

Really?

[Ariana Grande]

Is that embarrassed? That's just sad. That's just bad. That's just bad.

[Penn]

What do you mean?

[Ariana Grande]

Like obsessive? Like. Like counting or like certain ritual like, certain had to be in the shower for a certain amount of times. Singing through Defying Gravity. Three times in the shower. I was. That's how I knew I had a long enough shower.

[Penn]

What's the song?

[Ariana Grande]

Defying Gravity. I'm not kidding. When I was really from Wicked, Literally, though, when I was like, can we remove. Then we're going to open the.

[Penn]

I could go have some more jerk chicken.

[Ariana Grande]

The song, it's a show called Wicked Kid.

[Penn]

I've never heard of Kid.

[Ariana Grande]

Sorry. No, Things like that. I feel like that's embarrassing is being.

[Nava]

That's embarrassing.

[Sophie]

No, I was just thinking when you said, I don't get embarrassed, and then Pen was talking about that, you know, singing the anthem and forgetting the words and not feeling embarrassed. I feel like that's something.

[Penn]

You think there's something wrong with us, which makes us.

[Sophie]

I feel like that's probably part of the genesis of becoming a performer. Like, you have to kind of have. Have the kids who don't have that to get embarrassed quickly and easily are not going to go on stage. They're not going to, like, develop the brand.

[Penn]

Okay. I agree with you on one hand, because it's like doing it in front of people. Okay, fine. But I was very, very easily embarrassed by very, very little things. And I want to recall that you.

[Ariana Grande]

Kissed a boy internally. Internally embarrassed.

[Penn]

Well, that's what I'm saying. So, like. So, yeah. So what we do, I think in this show, every now and then a guest will have, like, some kind of real prototypical. Like, it was a very embarrassing moment, and they all laughed at me. And it's very funny and all of that. But I think, you know, the essence of the question is. I don't know, it's like that soft center that everybody has. That everybody has. That can become sort of, like, horrified at being seen. Maybe it's just being seen or. I don't know, they're being seen in a way that you.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Yeah.

[Penn]

It doesn't feel like it's fair.

[Sophie]

Right.

[Penn]

You know.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I think embarrassed and, like, saddened by opinion are two different things.

[Penn]

I think that's fair.

[Guest Host or Producer]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Because I think it's like. That's, of course, a massive piece of it, but it's like, when I was young, I just didn't. I, like, could easily laugh at myself, if that makes sense.

[Penn]

That's nice.

[Ariana Grande]

But all of it inside is all, you know.

[Guest Host or Producer]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

That's why you become, I think, outward. Do anything for the laugh and. Yeah. I guess, sort of brave in that way, because inside, you're like, hey, what?

[Penn]

I suppose, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Shy.

[Penn]

How many times would you sing Defined gravity? In the shower?

[Ariana Grande]

In the shower by myself? I would. I would have to hear it three times to know that I had been in there long enough. But that was, like, that kind of ocd. It was like, numbers and, like, certain routine things.

[Sophie]

Cleanliness and stuff.

[Ariana Grande]

Cleanliness, definitely. I would use so much total germaphobe monopathophobe. Like, my hands would be cracking with. Because I'd use so much hand sanitizer and I'd be such a germaphobe.

[Penn]

How did Covid impact you then?

[Ariana Grande]

I was okay. I just was mindful of precautions that normal. But I'm so much older now. But when I was little, it was like, the scariest thing in the world to me.

[Penn]

When did it subside then? Like, that's interesting that it was younger and then not.

[Guest Host or Producer]

Not older.

[Ariana Grande]

Weird, because I talk to my therapist about this a lot. It goes away when I'm creating and when I'm busy with work, like, when I have a job. It went away when I started working a lot, when I started doing, like, finding community and theater and finding people and finding casts and distractions and kind of place to, like, put my feelings and, like, use my feelings. And then when I'm kind of, like, in an off season or, like, in between projects, I'm like, is that thing scary again? I'm like, am I like, is that thing coming back? I don't know. But I think, like, when art is in the forefront of my life, I don't have time to think about anything else. Everything really subsides when. Yeah, but. Yeah, but that was when I was young and I was much. I think I was so brave then. And now I'm, like, so soft and so, like, I'm like, a little. But it's. We're finding the balance now.

[Penn]

It seem.

[Ariana Grande]

It took a big circle. Big.

[Penn]

Yeah. It sounds to me like something of your new record is a Return to Tiny. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, for sure. Thank you. It definitely feels like a certain coming home to myself has taken place over the last, like, two and a half years or something. But that. But people say that's what happens when you turn 30. I think it's just something we all kind of get.

[Penn]

Late 20s, 30.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, late 20s, 30. It's like you get there, you come home a little bit.

[Penn]

You talk about the return of Saturn. I mean, you have this Saturn interlude. And I. In preparing for this, I decided to, like. I'm like. I wanted to learn a little bit About Saturn. Here's a really interesting thing that will possibly lead you into a valuable reflection or not. We shall see.

[Ariana Grande]

We shall see.

[Penn]

So. So the way Saturn got its rings, it was a giant moon, frozen moon, and it passed. Saturn has this thing called the Roche point, which is where. But so here's the thing. So its gravity is so intense. I'm gonna pull you through. Just wait. Just you wait. Just you wait. But the Roche point is different for every object that hits it, right? So yeah, the roach point is. Listen to this.

[Nava]

This is what all your interviews are like.

[Penn]

You wanna know about Saturn?

[Ariana Grande]

No, no, no, I love it.

[Penn]

Sticking with you at this point, at the Roche point, the front of the object, the gravity is so intense that pulls it apart from the back. So Saturn.

[Ariana Grande]

Wait, no starting. Relevant.

[Elizabeth Craft]

No, no.

[Ariana Grande]

This is fabulous. It's like once you got fabulous.

[Sophie]

Forgot the first part.

[Ariana Grande]

So the rings.

[Sophie]

This is how the rings are.

[Penn]

This is how Saturn got its rings.

[Sophie]

Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[Penn]

But the point is.

[Nava]

Finish it.

[Sophie]

Tell us.

[Penn]

So the point is the Roche point and the. So any object that interacts with Saturn, okay, has its own Roche point, where its gravity so much lesser than Saturn's that the front of it starts to rip apart from the back of it.

[Ariana Grande]

Wow.

[Penn]

So if you were to hit the Roche point, the front of you would rip off.

[Ariana Grande]

It's all as matter, actually. Yeah.

[Penn]

Okay. Right. So.

[Ariana Grande]

So it's a collection of others of what's once been so.

[Penn]

Well, it's this one actually. It's not many other things. It's just one moon and this moon. So there's like an analogy from we're Baha'. Is, and so there's this body of writings called the Baha'.

[Guest Host or Producer]

I. Wr.

[Penn]

We can talk about that later off tape if you want, or on tape.

[Nava]

Lemonada would love that.

[Penn]

You can compare a moon to a system of belief. So what happened to Saturn's moon was that it was ripped apart by its own gravity.

[Ariana Grande]

Isn't that poetic?

[Penn]

And I was thinking that if there's any validity to this idea of Saturn returns, is that a belief system, system of your own is being torn apart, but then it's being reorganized. Rather than a single point, it surrounds you entirely in totally new fashion and form.

[Ariana Grande]

That's stunning.

[Penn]

Yeah, that's beautiful.

[Nava]

You landed it.

[Penn]

I did land it.

[Ariana Grande]

Well done. That was absolutely gorgeous.

[Penn]

And I was. And so I, having gone through late 20s and 30s myself, I just feel like you've turned this period into a piece of art. You've actually. I hadn't even done it You've made the rings. You took the thing. You know, you've, like, you've. You've. You've decorated yourself with this beautiful new gem, which is eternal sunshine.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Right?

[Penn]

That's what I'm saying.

[Ariana Grande]

That is so beautiful.

[Penn]

That's what you should say. Can we actually just roll it back and you say all of that?

[Ariana Grande]

That's such a beautiful. That's such a beautiful. Yeah.

[Penn]

Because it really does feel to me like, you know, spending a lot of time with your catalog these last days, seeing some videos and stuff, and the way you've spoken about makes me think that there's one moment, I think, in a Vogue interview where you spoke about beauty as a tool. I think we all do it. I know we all do it, especially if we're in the public eye. Using beauty to hide.

[Nava]

Yeah, that was so beautiful.

[Penn]

Yeah, really, really poignant.

[Ariana Grande]

I think it's just an interesting shift that happens naturally for people, hopefully sooner rather than later, where it's like, oh, maybe it doesn't need to be so, you know, I suppose for me, it just. I felt like I just wanted to kind of come home in that way. I don't know. I felt like everything about my not literally talking about style and aesthetic was just heavy and, like, a lot. And, you know, a lot of my fans still love that style, and I. I think it's beautiful, too, from afar, but I think it's just, like, I didn't realize at the time that it was more, was more, because I wanted to be me less and less and to give myself to people less and less. So it was just kind of like a weird way of building a character more and more and more so that. I don't know. And then it was finally like, oh, there's a little voice in there. And then it just came kind of found its way, come back around. But I don't. It's. It's funny how that can even show itself in something as little as, like, your makeup or your style or your clothes or your. Your every. I don't know. It's interesting. It's funny.

[Nava]

That's totally true.

[Ariana Grande]

It's so strange that that has to be out there forever. All of it. You know what I mean? That is. That is the weirdest part about doing. Choosing this with our lives is that like. Like, normal people, every person with a job that isn't. This changes and evolves and learns and has the ability to do that and be like, oh, shit.

[Nava]

And not everyone gets to weigh in.

[Ariana Grande]

You don't even have to Think about it every. I mean, you do, but, you know, you don't have to look at it and be reminded of it at a. Well, like, shop blind. It's just. It's an interesting thing that I, like, kind of do a lot of work on processing so that it doesn't scare me away from continuing.

[Penn]

No, I think that's. That's really. It's. It's. It's difficult. I mean, it's difficult. I. I think it's funny to me that a comment section of anything is literally the manifestation of your own personal fears.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, my gosh.

[Penn]

Like, wow. That thing that I thought that maybe was just an insecurity that had no place.

[Nava]

That person is saying exactly that.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Penn]

So actually I was right about all the things that make me small and stupid and dumb and worthless.

[Nava]

And it's.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's strange. Cause it's like sometimes you think it might be okay, and then if you look, you will find it.

[Penn]

The sick part of your.

[Ariana Grande]

You know, it's like. It's just strange. It's strange. It's just. Yeah, yeah.

[Nava]

Ariana, I heard you say in a different conversation that sometimes, like, you try to change something that actually people have criticized that you feel is valid, and you change it, and then they criticize you for that.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, it's strange.

[Nava]

And I was, like, really thinking about that. Like, yeah, that's true. You're in such a catchphrase, too. Like, no matter what you do, people are angry at you. Why didn't you do it sooner? You're not. It's not authentic that you're doing it now. It's in response. It's like what people want you to say. Trapped in, like, one very specific version of yourself. And that's like a prison, you know.

[Ariana Grande]

It is very interesting. I think when that started to happen, I kind of started to work with my therapist very closely on making peace with the fact that, like, okay, maybe I'm too. Maybe I'm searching too hard for this, like, or for people to get me, like, the Ariana that is me. And I think I just kind of need to realize that this is something that comes with making art for a living and with being in the public eye. And this is something that I have to make peace with and become healthy about so that I can continue to make art and to tell stories and to be an artist, because I love it more than anything in the world. I love singing. I love writing. I love acting. I want to do it. I want. I love my Fans, I just. It's like, it's such a. It's such a tricky thing mentally to process, especially when I started in this way at this level. I was like, you know, 19 or 20 when my music career started to become what it is. And it just was so far ahead of my development as a person. And I think I struggled for a long time when I was young, making peace with what this beautiful thing music had done to my life. And I think it's still something I work really hard on. Being healthy, having a healthy relationship to. Is this. Of course, yeah. And I'm thankful because I feel like before Eternal Sunshine, I was not happy to be doing it. I was not happy about it and I'm very happy about it. I love it. I've loved every step of this album cycle so far of Wicked and of the lead up to Wicked and the audition process. It's like feeding. I'm sorry. This is so long winded.

[Nava]

It's so self.

[Ariana Grande]

So meaning. It's so much. I'm sorry. But you know, it was just like a very informative and nutritious process and I think it brought me home to everything I love and helped me reprioritize, you know, that my relationship to those voices, to art, to everything. And it's funny.

[Nava]

Stick around. We'll be right back.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Is it just me or are things actually really scary right now? In the world of public health, every day brings another confusing headline or yet again a far fetched claim. Vaccines are somehow up for debate and parents are scrolling TikTok for medical advice. I'm Chelsea Clinton, an advocate, author, investor, teacher, and mom navigating this insane time right alongside you. I hope you'll join me on my new podcast, that Can't Be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. From Limonada Media and the Clinton foundation, that Can't Be True is out October 2nd.

[Penn]

You said something earlier that I really didn't know and I want to. Maybe I misheard. I'm not sure. But did you say that you created Victorious or that you were in conversation with the creator of that before?

[Ariana Grande]

No. Auditioned for.

[Penn]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

Victorious with Liz Gillies.

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. So we were on. No. Did I say.

[Penn]

No. No, no, no, no, no, no. I was just trying to understand.

[Sophie]

He was thinking about the Roche point.

[Ariana Grande]

The Roche point.

[Penn]

I was already on Saturn's Rings.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. No, no. Showrunner. No.

[Penn]

No. But I guess. Cause I.

[Ariana Grande]

So I. I had auditioned with Liz, who was in 13.

[Penn]

Okay. That's what it was. That's what it was. That's what it was.

[Ariana Grande]

We like flew to LA together, all green and nervous and wondering what the chances were. And we both got cast. So I was lucky to have my first two jobs, be with my two best friends. Like, my first one was Aaron and my second one was with Liz, and that was very lucky.

[Penn]

So you were talking about before, about the kind of community that being in a stage production or a TV show provides. I mean, that was for me, you know, I think the thing that actually drew me to it more than anything. For you, it sounds like there was also a really, really clear, strong, like, you know, I want to sing. Music is the future for you. Music is the path. But I guess I'm curious what was that like? Cause again, this is. How old were you?

[Guest Host or Producer]

14.

[Ariana Grande]

I was 14. And yeah, I flew out to audition with Liz Gillies for Victorious, and we were all very excited and we got cast and we were. It was the best news we could hear. I mean, we were young performers who just wanted to do this with our lives more than anything. And. Yeah, and we got to. And that was like, so, so beautiful. I think we had some very special memories and we feel so privileged to have been able to create those roles and be a part of something that was so special for a lot of young kids. I think we're reprocessing our relationship to it a little bit now, if that makes sense.

[Penn]

Yeah, completely.

[Nava]

What are your thoughts on child acting? Like we've had different child doctors on the show who feel differently, some who are like, I would never let my kids. I don't think anyone. And others who are open to it as long as there's like, certain conditions on set.

[Ariana Grande]

Obviously my relationship to it has and is currently and has been changing. And I'm reprocessing a lot of what the experience was like, you know, my. Yeah, I think that the environment needs to be made safer if kids are going to be acting. And I think. I think there should be therapists. I think there should be parents allowed to be wherever they want to be. And I think not only on kids sets. I think if anyone wants to do this or music or anything at the level of exposure that it means to be on TV or to do music with a major label or whatever there should be in the contract, something about therapy is mandatory twice a week or thrice a week or something like that. And I. I was actually talking to Max Martin about this the other day because he was always such an amazing person to talk to about the stressful Parts of what I was experiencing, yeah, and he was just amazing. But a lot of people don't have the support that they need. Need to get through being performing at that level at such a young age, but also dealing with some of the things that the survivors who've come forward. And there's not a word for how devastating that is to hear about. And so I think the environment just needs to be made a lot safer all around. And like I said, I'm still in real time reprocessing my relationship to it. But yeah, the beautiful thing about it was that Liz and I got to fall in love with these characters that we created and learn what it feels like to be so in a character that you can't, you know, separate yourself from it. And there were things like that. But yeah, the rest of it is still being worked on, definitely.

[Penn]

I mean, I think it's not just in Hollywood and it's not just on like, certain sets. It's undoubtedly true that anybody who's gonna be a really professional, competent, experienced, technically, like veteran and performer by the time you're in your, like, 20s, you have to have been doing it for a long time. And I don't think there's anybody who's gotten there who hasn't experienced, you know, all these degrees of what you, you should and could call exploitation. But as you're going through it, it's not just that one thing. There's a, there's there's a million layers to it.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Penn]

And you can find. And as a person who then, then depends to some degree, not depends is not the right word because I'm saying this for myself as well. Like the greatest burden and the greatest gift of my life is being a like, high level professional performer. You know what I mean? Like, I have some of the most spiritual moments of understanding and insight and mercy and compassion when I'm in the middle of it. And I wouldn't be able to do that if I hadn't been doing it for so long. Long. You know what I mean? And, and so it's like takes and it gives. There's, there's, there's a lot to it. And I think the way that, as you said, I mean, devastating is a great word to describe the things that are coming to light now.

[Chelsea Clinton]

And.

[Penn]

Doesn't. It doesn't mean that it was all. It's just like across the board, a negative experience for everybody who's, who's doing it. And I think that's a really complicated and strange.

[Ariana Grande]

It changes it a lot. It Changes it a lot. And that's what I think I'm reprocessing.

[Penn]

Me, too, by the way. Like, I wasn't around. Yeah, I mean, I. Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot there.

[Ariana Grande]

I'm sorry. It's really tricky because also you and I, if I've gathered anything from our time together and from today for this, from just knowing you, and it's. It's. It's. We're so professional. So. Yeah, I think it's kind of like in any work environment. I'm glad that this conversation is happening here and also in the world, because it's also just kind of a cultural shift that's happening where it's not just actors and singers and whatever. If you ask anyone who's ever worked ever, if they've ever been sort of, like, you know, dealt with a boss that had a really bad ego and temper and whatever, or if they've been sexually harassed or even assaulted or. It's. It's not. It doesn't. It's everywhere. It is everywhere.

[Penn]

Statistically, it's prevalent.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it's prevalent.

[Penn]

We point the finger a lot and fail to often remember. Like, this behavior is prevalent. It's normal.

[Ariana Grande]

We're told it's normal, and it's changing. And I think that's a really nice place to see the world in unison. Standing in a place where we're like, that's changing. Yeah, that's unacceptable. So, yeah, I think. Yes.

[Nava]

One of my favorite quotes. Sophie and Pen will agree with this. I have, like, a fire and brimstone personality, too. Like, I'm like, let the.

[Penn]

What's the other part?

[Nava]

Only exclusively. I'm like. I want people to be, like, punished. So anyway, this quote, it's very fire and brimstone, but I love it. But there's a quote that says children are a trust which no community can neglect with impunity. And I think about that a lot. Like, what does that mean? Like, who's harmed when you neglect children? The children, but also the community. The adults that don't show appropriate behavior towards children. And I feel like what's worse in the film industry, maybe, or more amplified, is like, a spirit of adult behavior towards children. What I've gathered from interviewing a lot of our guests who started as children. Children is that there's, like, two phenomena that are common. One is, like, infantilizing people, treating people who aren't children like children, and then treating children like adults. Like, expecting adult behavior from them or acting in ways letting children be exposed to things that, like, they're not developmentally ready for.

[Ariana Grande]

No, that's.

[Nava]

That's really, well, upsetting.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And there's also a strange pattern that occurs where it's really taken advantage of how much it means to the young performer to get a laugh from Video Village. You're like, oh, shit, I'm doing something great. This is funny. This is good.

[Penn]

By the way, Video Village, we should say, is where all of the producers and the director are watching the monitors of what's being captured on camera.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting because I think that was speaking specifically about our show. I think that was something that we. We were convinced was, like, the cool thing about us is that, like, we pushed the envelope with our humor and the innuendos were like. We were told. And convinced as well that it was, like, the cool differentiation. And I don't know, I think it just all happened so quickly. And now looking back on some of the clips, I'm like, that's damn. Like, really?

[Penn]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

And that shit. My daughter, you know, sorry. You know, just. You think about it, it's like, what I. If I had a daughter, it's like, yeah. And.

[Nava]

Yeah, the craziest part of that is, like, how many people have to approve it. Like, when you start working in. So many adults, at least so many adults approved that.

[Ariana Grande]

So that's.

[Nava]

It's like, there's no spirit of responsibility towards children.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Nava]

There's a spirit of, like, a bottom line.

[Ariana Grande]

There is a bottom line. You know, there's a bottom line. And then the things that weren't approved for the network were snuck onto, like, our website or whatever it was. And that is another discovery. But going into it, I guess I'm upset. But, you know, towards the end, my mom was allowed to come to set when I was like, you know, a little.

[Sophie]

She wasn't allowed to come to set.

[Ariana Grande]

When we were younger. They were allowed to come to run through sometimes or, like, things like that. Like, occasionally, I think. But yeah, towards the end, she was there, like, a little more. And we've been talking a lot about this recently, and she's been like, sort.

[Penn]

Of my mom and I have too, by the way.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Penn]

Well, just. I mean, because.

[Ariana Grande]

Because it's like, it's of its awakening.

[Penn]

Yeah. You have to start to process, like, okay, so now, knowing what we all know, neither would I want my children to be in an environment like that, nor does my mother, in retrospect, think that I should have been in an environment like that. So, you know, then how do we kind of reconcile around that, as you know, for the sake of our relationship.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And how do you. You also, like, put it to use? How do we put it to use? How do we. What is there. How is there an end to things like this? I was actually talking about this with Max, who I said earlier, because I think that in my contract as a Republic Records artist, I want to see them add moving forward. I need to call Mondi Libman about this. Monty, I have an idea. No, but I think it should be be provided that if you're going to be doing this on this scale and your life is going to turn into something that, you know, it is if you do it, if it goes well, and if you get to do it and you get to be on the stage at the Grammys and, you know, your dreams are coming true, there should be an element that is mandatory of therapy of a professional person to unpack what this experience of your life changing so drastically does to you at a young age, at any age. It's just really gets you for a second. Yeah.

[Nava]

Arianna, I want to say completely sincerely that meeting you now, I mean, you're just so lovely and kind and sweet, but even from afar, I just feel. And Pen, I've had conversations with Pen about this. Completely sincere. You're so strong. Like, you've gone through some incredible things. Things. And I just feel like grace has to be one of your lead attributes as a person. Like, you seem to have grace. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

That's nice.

[Nava]

Thank you.

[Ariana Grande]

You got me. Thank you. That's nice.

[Nava]

It's true.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Thank you. I think everyone in this room is very strong.

[Guest Host or Producer]

Thank you.

[Ariana Grande]

And yeah, you don't know them.

[Penn]

You don't really know them.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, I was. I was only talking about. No, I'm kidding. No, but thank you. My therapist is doing great. That was actually. Can I just. Just a quick detour.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Speaking of the funniest things that have happened. Happened in the, like, world that is so many degrees removed from what we are actually doing in real life. One of the funniest stories when I was becoming whatever I became, was that my therapist couldn't even work with me anymore. I think it was. Of course it was. But they said that my therapist couldn't even work with me anymore. I've been with that therapist for 15 years. Wow.

[Penn]

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Ariana Grande]

No, we literally send it to each other from time to time as, like a joke. And I'm like, still going strong.

[Elizabeth Craft]

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada Shows without the ads subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads With Lemonada Premium, are you looking for ways.

[Chelsea Clinton]

To make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Ariana Grande]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.