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Ariana Grande
Lemonade. My grandpa loved to sing too. Every time we finished dinner, he would sing Good night. I hate to leave you now, but have a good time at the end of every single dinner.
Nava
So sweet. Oh, my gosh.
Penn
Yeah, that's really charming.
Guest Host or Producer
Welcome to podcrushed.
Penn
We're your hosts. I'm Penn.
Nava
I'm Nava.
Sophie
And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties hatching plans to.
Nava
Sneak into R rated. Okay, who am I kidding? PG 13 rated mov movies.
Penn
Well, if you've clicked on this episode, then you might know what's coming. I suppose that's true for all of them. The one thing that's an amazing start.
Ariana Grande
Just you wait.
Penn
There's more. We have today, the one, the only, Ariana Grande. You might know her most famously from starring alongside me in a music video.
Ariana Grande
From the Boy Is Mine Video. I played the cat.
Penn
Yeah, she played the cat. You might. I don't know if you remember that part. Yeah, she's. She's got a new record out. It's been out for a little bit now. Even newer down the pipeline is wicked. So we're talking about her whole life, but you know, we just. We get into Saturn, you're going to want to know about that.
Ariana Grande
Oh, boy, do we. New depths of Saturn.
Penn
New depths. Yeah, please, please stick around. You're not going to want to miss this one.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me. The show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor, and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from lemonade Media premieres November 12th. Wherever you get your podcasts.
Steve Burns
Hey, it's me, Steve Burns. And I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right?
Nava
Yeah.
Steve Burns
And look at us now, like we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown up stuff and there's special guests like Jamie Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media Alive with Steve burns is coming September 17th. Wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube.
Penn
All right, well, in addition to introducing my socks, we have with us Ariana Grande.
Guest Host or Producer
Thank you.
Ariana Grande
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Penn
Thank you so much for coming.
Ariana Grande
I'm gonna say I'm honored and excited.
Nava
We're so excited.
Penn
We're just gonna dive right in. We typically start around 12. From what I understand, you had. Now, this may or may not be true. We'll know if our research is it.
Ariana Grande
I'm sorry.
Sophie
Wait, wait, wait. Before we actually dive right in, I do think we have to address how different this episode is.
Ariana Grande
No, it's so different. I've seen it.
Penn
In what way? I'm not sure what you're talking about. In which way?
Ariana Grande
Well, I walked in.
Penn
Is it my socks?
Ariana Grande
That's it. It is. It's Epen's socks. It's that.
Nava
Yeah.
Chelsea Clinton
Yeah.
Nava
Ariana was like, is this a new setup for season three? Yeah, like, it's a new setup for you.
Penn
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
That's crazy. That's so nice.
Penn
Well, we're doing sort of one offs this year. You know, we just sort of like, we vibe to our guests. And you warrant a giant wooden studio built in probably the 1980s or 70s.
Guest Host or Producer
Wow.
Penn
When this was necessary to record music.
Ariana Grande
I'm deeply honored. It's so cool. I was like, wow. Rebranding. What's going on? Like, this is so fun.
Penn
All wood, all time.
Nava
Matthew Hessey is gonna cry when he hears you say that. Because for his episode, you had, like, that Makeshi wardrobe where he was like, pen, are you trapped?
Ariana Grande
And I can't.
Penn
It definitely looks like a kill room. That little cottage of mine that I have not redecorated. It's a place that I typically am in for the remote interviews when we're on Zoom.
Ariana Grande
How fun. But this is extraordinary.
Penn
This is a much bigger kill room.
Ariana Grande
Wow. Thank you. I'm glad you thought of me for this. Thank you so much.
Guest Host or Producer
Wow.
Ariana Grande
I can hear things differently. I mean, out of the headphones, just sounds. Yeah.
Penn
I've always loved recording studios. I absolutely love them. And I'm interested in your relationship to that, but we'll get into that first. Is this true or false? Did you have a screen Name? Jim Carreyfan 42. That's true. Is this true?
Ariana Grande
Absolutely true. Well, he was 42 at the time.
Penn
Okay.
Ariana Grande
So that's where the number came from. Because Jim Carrey fan was taken, so I had to put a number, and it was 42 because that was his age. And I believe that year I. I should stop. But I'll tell you, I had a birthday party for him.
Guest Host or Producer
For him?
Ariana Grande
For him?
Penn
For him.
Sophie
Was he there?
Ariana Grande
No, he couldn't make it. But yeah.
Penn
What's his birthday? Do you remember?
Ariana Grande
I actually don't remember now. But the weirdest thing, the most. Give me a chance. The most cosmic thing is it actually happened to be when I announced my album Eternal Sunshine, which is obviously named after the movie, and I announced it on his birthday, coincidentally.
Penn
Wow. And you still don't remember what that date is?
Ariana Grande
No, I don't remember. Still something with a seven in it. Something with a seven.
Nava
Ariana, who came to the Jim Carrey birthday that you hosted?
Ariana Grande
My friend Aaron Simon. Gross. Okay. I love. It's still my best.
Penn
Amazing.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, yeah.
Nava
Did you guys do like Jim Carrey themed things?
Ariana Grande
No, we just watched the movies and I think my mom had like Jim Carrey themed things. That's very cute. Spectacular. Yeah, we had like the mask. My mom had like little like paper masks.
Nava
That's very cute.
Penn
So your mom was very supportive.
Ariana Grande
Yes, she's always been very supportive of Jim Carrey. Yeah. Obsessions.
Penn
So what age was this though? Are you, were you 12 or 10?
Ariana Grande
Well, I don't know. I think I was. Well, if he was 42, I must have been. I have no idea. I don't know how old he is now, so I don't know.
Penn
But you had a screen name.
Ariana Grande
But. Yeah, that was my screen name. So like that was, so I was young and it was like one of my first screen names. I remember.
Sophie
Tell us a little bit about you because I feel like not many 10 or 12 year old girls would choose that as a screen name.
Nava
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
Yes. I was always a little off. I was always a little different. No, but you remember the days when like you would have a few screen names.
Penn
Yeah, absolutely.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. That was like the cool thing in a way. Messages and like rainbow fonts, like certain people could change. Changed the fonts. It was in that era, it was like that those days, that was. Yeah, that's where we're starting.
Penn
That is what we're starting. Well, do you think that, that, I mean, you know, your relationship to comedy is to me a really interesting one. You know, I don't think you've ever left it. Personally, I feel like it's in your music in just the right amounts. You know what I mean? Your appearances on SNL are pretty show stopping and phenomenal.
Ariana Grande
Thank you.
Penn
And then of course, you know, you started not much later than 12, like doing these comedy shows was that was, was. I mean, what did you think of comedy then? Was it, was it your favorite thing? Was it related to you as a performer or.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, I think first of all, thank you. That's so nice. But I loved comedy first. I mean, I loved singing first and foremost, but I remember that comedy always gave me a different feeling than singing did. Singing, I think, takes itself so seriously. And I love laughing so much. Like, there's something about making a person laugh that's like, we're comfortable. We trust each other. We're here. Like, laughter is just the best thing in the entire world to me. So, yeah, I don't know. It was always something I loved a lot. And then I think when pop sort of took over for a while, I lost a little bit of, like, that light, and I kind of, like, I missed it, I think, subconsciously, in a very big way. So, yeah, I don't know. Looking forward to kind of. I'm glad you said that you could hear it a tiny bit in the music because I don't like to take things too seriously in some of my more, like, playful pop songs. I think it's a nice, you know, place to put some comedy sometimes. But, yeah. Thank you. I don't know.
Penn
Yeah, I know. I really. I really. I really hear it, especially. I don't know if you remember this the first time I DMed you about this. Well, yes, it was about this, but the way I shot my shot was I said that Shut up is one of the best pop openers of an album of the last probably 10 or 20 years. I really love it, and it's so funny, but it's so well crafted.
Ariana Grande
Thank you.
Penn
And that to me, again, that you could go on snl, as you do. Okay, so, fine, so somebody can be funny. But that you. Yeah, to me, I just. I've always heard it in the music, so I think it's really cool. It's not easy.
Ariana Grande
In my mind, I couldn't believe that you had, like, heard my music or I've been watching you forever.
Penn
I would have to live under a lock, which I nearly do. But I have still heard your music.
Ariana Grande
Well, thank you. But also to lead with that, like, that's so. That's like. I was like, whoa, this is too much for me. Thank you, though, Pen.
Sophie
Also, the interesting thing about him is that he's incapable of lying. So if he's gonna write, that's a good thing with something that he likes that you've done.
Ariana Grande
You know, it's fear.
Penn
It was really hard for me to start doing ads at first. In the podcast, I was like, I had to figure out how to get behind this ad. I remember one time when I didn't have the Time I took, like, an hour to record, right?
Ariana Grande
Don't say it.
Penn
And I won't say for which one. I won't say for which one, but it took me an hour, like, of time I did not have anyway, because.
Nava
It'S like, can I even.
Ariana Grande
What's my intention behind it? Where am I coming from? In this ad?
Penn
It wasn't about acting. It was like, I'm saying something about this product that, like, I need to believe in some way. Otherwise, like, ah. Can I say this?
Sophie
His out is usually. And that's why Sophie loves.
Nava
He's like, so, Nova, what do you think about.
Ariana Grande
That's so funny.
Nava
We'll have to cut the bathrooms and kill us. But, Ariana, I just want to say one thing. It'll take us out of the time period, but there's an SNL skit you did where I think it was like, Tidal was having a power outage or something, and you had to do all the different singers. Yeah, it's one of my favorites.
Penn
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nava
It's one of my favorite skits. And I watch it, like, honestly, like, 10 times a year, and I show it to anyone that I'm trying to impress. Like, I know we're gonna laugh together, you know, so there's like, a cute guy. I'm like, have you seen this?
Ariana Grande
Oh. Oh, my God.
Elizabeth Craft
Yeah.
Nava
And anyone that I want to think that I have good taste in, like, humor, I just. And it always hits. People always love it. And a lot of people don't know you're that funny. So it's, like, unexpected.
Ariana Grande
Thank you.
Nava
But I just love it. It's so good.
Ariana Grande
Thank you. I was so bummed because some people thought that I was lip syncing in some of the. In some of them. Really?
Nava
Cause you're that good. You're like, no, that was Shakira.
Ariana Grande
I was like, I'm upset, but thank you. I was like, well, I'm.
Sophie
And thanks.
Ariana Grande
No, I'm kidding. But, yeah, thank you. That's fun. It was. I love. I love doing snl. I. Yeah. It's so thrilling. It's so much fun. And there are so many things that get cut, too, that are so ticklish. And it's just fun to be in that building. It's so vast, and everyone's so creative and funny and brilliant. It's just. It's fun.
Nava
Your recent one with Bo and Yang, when you guys did the Moulin Rouge bit, was crazy, hysterical.
Ariana Grande
The most fun I've ever had in my life. I almost didn't make it through any of it. I love Bowen Yang so much. He's so brilliant. He's so beautiful and wicked. I can't wait for people to see.
Nava
We have a whole section.
Penn
We're in this room. We have.
Ariana Grande
My other screen name is Bowen yang. Fan at 30. I don't know.
Penn
So let's go back to you growing up, like, was your household, I mean, because you're just. I mean, even more now. It just feels to me like it's so clear. You're a performer through and through. Was it a performing household? I mean, where does it come from?
Guest Host or Producer
What were your parents like?
Ariana Grande
Yes. So my parents are kind of polar opposite, but if you know me, it kind of makes sense knowing them and then how I came about. Cause my mom is like, business. She's also very creative and talented. But she does. I mean, she's the CEO of a company that designs and manufactures, like, telecommunication equipment, like PAs for, like, ferries and like. Yeah. So it's very different. And my dad is sort of the more creative one. He does architectural design and photography and graphic design and he paints and, you know, so I'm kind of smack in the middle of the two of them. But my brother was in a lot of theater and in a lot of school shows growing up. He was on Broadway. And so it was a very theatrical household. Even though the only two who have pursued it or Frankie and me. But my mom was always singing and doing karaoke nights. And my dad was always singing as well. And my grandpa. My grandpa loved to sing, too. Every time we finished dinner, he would sing Good night, I hate to leave you now, but have a good time at the end of every single dinner.
Nava
So sweet. Oh, my gosh.
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
Penn
That's really charming.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, he was the best.
Penn
Did any of them have anything like a voice like yours?
Ariana Grande
I mean, I think so, but I love them. I don't know. My grandpa had big belt, like, he would sing along to Frank Sinatra with all his heart. And my mom has a beautiful voice. My dad loves to sing and has a beautiful voice. He has a beautiful voice and he's a beautiful painter. My aunt Mare is in a band as well. My aunt Mare is a musician. My uncle Craig, they have a band that's on my dad's side. And my cousin Hallie's a singer. So lots of art, but my parents were not pursuing it.
Penn
Right, right, right.
Ariana Grande
Was that an answer? Was that any?
Penn
I don't even remember my question, but I asked a question.
Ariana Grande
Sorry, I'm Long Wing household.
Sophie
Well, that made me curious because you said Frankie was into performing. He was on Broadway. And I feel like if you have an older sibling who is really good at something or pursuing something, sometimes that makes a younger sibling shy away from.
Ariana Grande
Oh, my gosh. It sounds like that doesn't know my idol. Yeah. Up to him so much, and I still do. He's amazing. But he went to Muhlenberg, and I loved seeing him in his shows there. And even before then, he went to Pine Crest, and I would see him in those shows, too. And, yeah, I was always his biggest fan, and I was like, I want to do that.
Nava
That's so sweet. You've talked a lot about your Nona. Your Nonna is on your new album. And I'm curious, what was your relationship with her like when you were little? Like, how much of an influence did she have in your life?
Ariana Grande
Oh, my gosh. I mean, my grandparents, my whole family has always been so supportive, but in the healthiest way. Not pushy. Like, my mom wasn't a stage mom. She was the first person to get me where I wanted to go. Like, if I was like, I would love to go to this audition. She would take me there and make sure I was prepared and support me, but she never told me that it was what I should be doing because she thought I was talented or because, you know, she was like, are you sure? My family was very supportive but very protective as well. But my grandparents. My Nona actually saw the ad in the newspaper to sing the national anthem at the Panthers game, and she took me for my audition.
Penn
So, Nona, were you eight or nine then?
Ariana Grande
I think I was eight, yeah.
Penn
Wow. So that was your first. Was that your first audition and first performance?
Ariana Grande
I think that was my first public performance. Yeah. I was 8. I don't know what I would have done before other than, like, playing the bumblebee in my school play, which I did. Yes. And I made a little. I worked a nice little bit in there. I improv'd it. I didn't tell anyone I was gonna do it. Got a big laugh. I was very proud.
Sophie
That's brave at eight.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. I think I was just supposed to, like, fly by and exit. And I. Before I did, I ripped the little stinger off of my costume and I stung the lead character, and I flew off unprompted. But I'm talking really young. That's improv. And also, like, ruined a costume.
Elizabeth Craft
That's.
Ariana Grande
And I'm sorry. This is my public apology for. To the costume department, the preschool. Sorry.
Sophie
Yeah.
Penn
You should know that I once Sang the national anthem. Also at like a local. It was a. AAA baseball game in Washington state.
Ariana Grande
Why haven't I seen this?
Penn
Well, it's not on record.
Nava
He paid someone to bury the footage.
Penn
This is not a lie. I forgot the words in the middle.
Ariana Grande
Oh my goodness. It's a tricky one. Yeah. Doesn't it feel like it can kind.
Sophie
Of like go in circles?
Ariana Grande
It can. It can fake you out.
Nava
Wait, so what did you do, Pen? Did you hum?
Penn
No. So I really just. In the middle, I just forgot that word.
Ariana Grande
Which word?
Penn
I don't remember.
Guest Host or Producer
It doesn't.
Penn
No, it doesn't at all.
Nava
It just doesn't even remember the word. There's an English word that never.
Penn
You know, I'm facing like out into the sky and the mountains and the whole crowd is behind me.
Ariana Grande
How old were you?
Penn
I was a bit older, so I was 13.
Ariana Grande
Oh no, that was.
Penn
It's quite embarrassing. And I just paused. It didn't freak me out actually. And then I. I just went. And then I hear the whole crowd chanting the word. But because it's a crowd, it's very hard to make out. And so then I actually said what.
Nava
That'S best case scenario.
Guest Host or Producer
And then.
Penn
And then I finally heard it and I go, oh, thanks. And then I just finished.
Ariana Grande
And then, and then.
Penn
And both teams were so supportive. They were just like, yeah, you know, slapping me on the back because they assumed that I was mortified. But I have to be honest, like.
Ariana Grande
No, that wasn't it.
Penn
Really.
Ariana Grande
That's really sick.
Penn
I wasn't really because I don't know, it just.
Nava
I would have thrown up for sure.
Penn
You definitely would have. The one person who was not supportive was the person who hired me for it. She was like, well, I guess I could have been more prepared.
Nava
You're a kid.
Penn
Yeah. I mean, you should hire.
Ariana Grande
That is deeply traumatic. You can't say that to a 13 year old. That's. Can.
Nava
Can a viewer please find this footage and DM it to us?
Sophie
There's going to be an uptick in Google searches. Anthem.
Penn
There's definitely no. There's definitely no footage. It's before phones, you know.
Guest Host or Producer
Oh man.
Nava
Yeah, before he's trying to throw us off the phone.
Penn
Yeah, before all there is.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, that's. He would have filmed the camera hadn't been.
Penn
So I'm curious if you can recall. This is the genesis of you as a performer here. We gotta. We're building a story.
Ariana Grande
Okay.
Penn
Do you recall either afterward feeling that I want more of this? Were you just like, eh, you Know, like, I'm wondering if you have any core memories there.
Ariana Grande
I think I didn't have much of a relationship to the song at the time. I think I was 8, and I was like, these are the words. I'll sing him.
Penn
Just perform it, you know, like you got off a stage or the ice or whatever.
Ariana Grande
I, like, felt so happy and proud. And the funniest thing about that video, to me is how I, like a. I feel like I look exactly the same as I did in that video. Like, that's exactly still everything.
Penn
I didn't even know there's a video.
Ariana Grande
There's a video. It's really funny because when I'm done, the way I whip my head and walk away is too crazy. It's a little too much. I liked it a little too much back then. It was really funny. I loved it. I had so much fun. I wanted to do it again.
Penn
Did you get hit by a puck?
Ariana Grande
I did. I got hit by two pucks. But I'm a big. I'm a big Panthers fan. Still nothing can take me away.
Nava
Where did the puck hit you?
Ariana Grande
Once was the palm of my hand.
Penn
Cause you were like this.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, because my. Well, because my dad went to cover me, and they went to. And I didn't know what was happening, so I went like this, and it got me here. Oh, man. And I don't remember what the other. I think it was the same thing twice. Obviously, the other time. Yeah, that's where my memory went.
Sophie
That's wild.
Nava
That can be so dangerous.
Ariana Grande
No. Yeah, it was. But they really. Oh, my gosh. They. They put me on. They got me tons of ice, and they put me on the Zamboni, and I was like, I'm not hurt anymore. I love this. I was, like, crying. I was crying and smiling at the same time.
Penn
You were already learning how to. How to smile through the pain of.
Ariana Grande
The performance, and, boy, was. Did I need to learn quickly.
Chelsea Clinton
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
I'm kidding. Joking. That's dark. But no, I was like. And then. Yeah, yeah, Dark. That was dark.
Penn
No, no, I don't think it was dark at all. It reminds me of something you said on the video, which we'll talk about later, but.
Ariana Grande
Oh, my God. Our video shoots. Yeah.
Penn
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
Oh, my God. Wait, what did I say?
Penn
Well, you did. You said that you. You know, you had, like. I think you hurt your foot somehow.
Ariana Grande
Oh, yes.
Penn
And we were just talking briefly about how, you know, you're constantly getting these. Not you. A performer is constantly just sort of.
Ariana Grande
Getting hurt and, like.
Penn
And you Just gotta go through it.
Ariana Grande
And, like, it's just not a priority. Yeah, you're just even like, mid take. I'm like, I cannot acknowledge this right now. And when we're done, I'll be like, hi, may I have a band aid? My pinky's on the ground. Certain things just aren't as important when you're in a take or something.
Penn
I fractured a rib in the middle of a take, and I was just like, you know, finished until the end. And then afterward, I was like, I can't move.
Ariana Grande
That's wild. And the sickest part of me was like, oh, God, I bet that was perfect on camera. I'm like, I bet that was great for the scene.
Nava
So at 8 years old, you're singing the national anthem. You're like, I love this.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, I loved it.
Nava
What's sort of the next step? I know eventually you make it to Broadway, but.
Ariana Grande
What?
Guest Host or Producer
Pretty quickly.
Penn
I mean, this is the thing with you. It was, like, so fast.
Ariana Grande
It was fast. But I'm thankful that it wasn't too fast because I was still home with my family for, like, those years that I'm. You know, I was a teenager when I was on Broadway. I was already 13. So between then, I did a lot of, like, local family theater and community theater, and I was always on stage. I loved acting, and I loved singing and being a part of any show that I could find. But, yeah, then I went to audition with my best friend, Aaron Simon Gross, who was at the Jim Carrey birthday party for Thirteen, the musical. And we got it together, like he was. We both got it together.
Sophie
It's been so fun.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
So I got to do my first few jobs because then I met Liz Gillies, who's one of my best friends in the entire world. And then after 13 auditioned for Victorious and she and I got that together. So I've always had support and friendship around me. But, yeah, I didn't start too young. I feel like 13 is. Even though, you know, working at a young age is like, we can talk for 75 hours. There's much to say and we'll get there, I'm sure. But, you know, it was nice to have a friend, and it was nice to have not been seven or eight. What about. You were young?
Penn
Yeah, I mean, I was about the same. So let's see. I first started doing community theater at, like, 8 and 9, and then I was. Got my first, like.
Ariana Grande
What was your first role?
Penn
Will and Grace. Actually, I had, like, five lines on.
Ariana Grande
Will and Grace in community theater.
Penn
Oh, sorry. No, I thought you played.
Ariana Grande
All the other ones I met in the ever.
Penn
Well outside of school was Winthrop and Music man, you know Music Man.
Ariana Grande
A little. Enough.
Penn
You love musical theater?
Ariana Grande
I love musical theater.
Nava
Do you love music?
Ariana Grande
I don't. I'm not very well acquainted.
Penn
It could be the reason that I don't love musical theater because, you know, I loved the Experience, but I did not.
Ariana Grande
Maybe it wasn't the right show for you.
Penn
It wasn't. And then also my audition song was I can show you the world from Aladdin Fabulous, or A Whole New world is what it's called. But it starts with I can show you the world and oh my goodness, just I think of that audition process and cringe. However, I discovered that if it's done at its best. When I saw Rent, I loved Rent. Rent is, you know, as like a 20 year old.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yes.
Penn
I could say. Okay, when it's done. Well, yeah, I do like a musical.
Sophie
I have a core memory around Rent. My whole family was obsessed with musicals. We would sing Wicked all the time. Rent.
Ariana Grande
Were you Glinda and Elphaba, may I ask?
Sophie
Oh, Glinda.
Ariana Grande
Oh my God. You don't have to sing Popular.
Sophie
Popular is the best song.
Ariana Grande
Oh my gosh.
Sophie
But no, but we would sing Rent all the time. And I had no idea what the songs were about. I was like 8 or 9 and my whole family went to go see it on Broadway, but you weren't allowed to bring like a 10 year old, really. So I had to go see the New York City Ballet, which I fell asleep in with my aunt while they.
Ariana Grande
Were all at Rent.
Nava
It was horrible.
Penn
Oh, Rent. Yes.
Ariana Grande
Wow, that's devastating. Yeah, nothing's crazier than loving Rent at a young age. Being young and loving the songs and then growing up and being like, whoa, holy shit, one song. Glory.
Penn
Honestly, all I knew about Rent was the south park episode. It's like 8, 8, 8, 8, 8,. 8, 8, 8. And I didn't realize how much of a specific kind of lampoon that was because I turned to my friend at the time it with after like four or five minutes and I was like, are they ever going to stop singing? And she looked at me like I was crazy.
Nava
And she was like, no, of course not.
Penn
And then I, you know, for the next 15 minutes I was like, what have I done? What have I done? What have I done? But then, you know, it won't make.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, I. I don't want to delay us, but I have a crazy Rent tie in story. Tell us I was in a group called Kids who Care when I was really young with Aaron and all my friends. And we would sing for like different charity events or sometimes we would even go to old age homes and perform for the elderly. And one of the songs on our set list because we loved to sing it. And sometimes like when we would do shows, we would do, we would do what you own which says, you're dying in America.
Penn
Oh, that's right.
Ariana Grande
And one time we didn't, we didn't think, we didn't think. And we, we had a bunch of gigs in a row. Think about it. And we were just at this old age home and we were like, we got to the final chorus, we were like, you're dying in America at the end of the millennium. And we were like. And then.
Penn
But you know what, did they appreciate it?
Ariana Grande
They couldn't hear us. It was great. It was great. They couldn't hear anything. They were like, oh, they're so cute and no one heard anything and it was fabulous.
Penn
See, in my brain they were like, finally some hard hitting something where they.
Ariana Grande
Can really give it to us. Finally someone.
Nava
No, no, no. At the end of the millennium you got five years.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, but like we didn't think about it at all. And that final chorus approach. So good.
Sophie
And we'll be right back.
Guest Host or Producer
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Penn
He could speak probably nearly fluent Spanish.
Guest Host or Producer
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Penn
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Guest Host or Producer
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Penn
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Guest Host or Producer
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Ariana Grande
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Guest Host or Producer
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Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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Sophie
When you were on Broadway, you were in middle school, which is like, right in the pocket of our show. So you weren't going to traditional school at the time?
Ariana Grande
No, I was tutored. We all had, like a tutoring classroom. And.
Penn
Yeah, that's like just when you were on set or what would you say when you were at the theater? But then were you going to school in, like, other times?
Ariana Grande
Yeah, I mean, I. Cause I wasn't sure if the show was going to take me out of North Broward Preparatory School in Coconut Creek forever. Coconut Creek? Yeah, Coconut Creek, Florida. Yeah. It's so Floridian.
Penn
So, wait, a prep school? Is that very. Is that very academic?
Guest Host or Producer
Was it a very.
Penn
Was it a very academic path you were on?
Ariana Grande
No, I was there. I mean, I was there. I think I kind of knew what I wanted to do and I was a good student. I think I was a good student. But. But, yeah, I was there and then I would. And I left to do the show and we had tutors, so some of the kids were still in school like I was, and we would just be doing our classes remotely. And then I did Victorious and I had to, like, finish the way that kid actors finish. And I don't even remember what it's called.
Penn
Yeah. Is it the proficiency?
Ariana Grande
Yeah. What is the test that you. Yeah, no, no, no, no, there is that, but. Yeah, that, but. No, there's like.
Penn
I mean, in California, you can work more hours. It's. Every state has a different one.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, every state.
Penn
So in California, it's called the Chesapeake.
Ariana Grande
California. Yes, yes, yes. The Chesapeake. That's what I meant. And then I was able to work, like, I was 30 at 15.
Elizabeth Craft
Exactly.
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
Penn
Yeah, I did the same thing.
Ariana Grande
Literally the same thing.
Nava
It's.
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
Sophie
So what was your experience around crushes at the time? Like your first loves, first heartbreaks?
Ariana Grande
Oh, God. I mean, my mom was really strict, so I didn't.
Penn
Which means your crushes were even bigger and deeper.
Ariana Grande
How do you think I ended up where I am? No, as I. Yeah, I think my mom was very protective. And protective is a better word, but somewhat strict. Very protective. And I didn't have a lot of crushes that I was, like, allowed to explore when I was. Was super young. But I had them and they were there, but I didn't. Like. I had, like, my first kiss secretly in the hallway one time, and then.
Penn
I was, like, at a real school.
Ariana Grande
At a real school at North Broward in Coconut Creek. It was, like, quick, and I was like, this is bad. I'm gonna get in trouble and I need to leave. And I ran away. And I don't think I ever talked to him again.
Nava
But, yeah, he's still crying. He's still mourning that.
Ariana Grande
It was after school and before going to the school store, because there was a school store, and that's, like, what people did. And I wanted to be cool and I wanted to go to the school store.
Nava
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. But I. Yeah, it was always a very. Like, I couldn't. I didn't want to, like, run home and be like. I had my first kiss. I was very nervous and scared.
Nava
Yeah, we'll cut this, because I've told this story before, but I think you'll find it cute. My first kiss was in a, like, spin the bottle game, sort of, something like that. And my parents were very strict. And then it was, like, at a kid's birthday party, whatever. And I went to every kid at the party crying, like, please don't tell my mom. And we're all like, why would we.
Ariana Grande
Why would we tell.
Nava
I was like, please don't tell my mom.
Ariana Grande
And then you have to leave this in. Because I feel seen and understand.
Nava
And then as soon as I got home, just, like, opened the door, mom was like, hi, Nevaeh. And I started crying, and I was like, I kissed that in.
Ariana Grande
Oh, my God.
Nava
Okay, that's just, like, no reaction.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. This is actually, like. This was my first kiss. I was like, a person that I can remember being. Because when I was in preschool, I kissed a lot of boys.
Sophie
Oh, really?
Ariana Grande
Yeah. I think something, like, there's something extreme that happens to me. Like, you know, like, when I was young, I kissed a lot of boys, and I was very, like, fearless. And then I was, like, very nervous, and I was. I kissed one boy, and then never again until I was, like, 18.
Nava
Yeah.
Sophie
Wow, that's.
Ariana Grande
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, 16. That's not true at all.
Chelsea Clinton
It's okay.
Sophie
Don't worry.
Ariana Grande
Guys, I don't think I've ever thought about my life. I don't know what happened to me in my life at all, who I am.
Penn
It's because you were performing.
Ariana Grande
Been through it too.
Penn
It's the same for all of us.
Ariana Grande
Wait, why? I know it's because of the pockets. Because I'm professional. I don't remember anything. Guys. Wait. I was like, 14.
Penn
Yeah. Fair. No, you know what it is? Every year at that age is. Is so long.
Ariana Grande
I don't remember the chess P. I don't remember graduating. I don't remember anything.
Penn
It's. It's only. It's. It's only. I mean, honestly, I feel like. I feel like at that age, every year is just phenomenally long. It's its own timeline. The difference between 13 and 14 to a 13 and 14 year old is massive.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah.
Sophie
Also, I've been thinking about this recently. Like, you need external markers of time. Like whether it's, you know, middle school, you know, was sixth grade to eighth grade, and so it happened at some point during those years, or like, if somebody moved house, then that's marker of time.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, I have. No. Nothing.
Penn
Yeah, because you're so.
Ariana Grande
I actually have this too, in between the puck. Sorry.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And today.
Ariana Grande
Sorry, go on. What?
Penn
I honestly, like, after leaving school formally at, like, 12 years old, you know, a lot of it blends together for me as well. So I feel you.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Strange. But we're finding it today.
Penn
I'm curious how you, like, whether you thought of yourself as an artist then or not. Like, how are you seeing the world? What do you think your greatest aspiration was at that time?
Ariana Grande
Time to sing. I just wanted to sing. I really loved it.
Penn
And what about, like, was acting connected? You know, because you were in musical theater then, did you. Did you always want to just sing, or at that time, were they really wed together?
Ariana Grande
Well, they were wed together because I wanted to be on Broadway. That was my first and only goal. I was like, I want to be on Broadway. I want to be in musicals. And I also love making music. That was the other thing that I loved doing. I would love to, like, go home and play on GarageBand and, like, I had, like, a looping machine that I would play with because Imogen Heap is my idol and my forever, all time number one inspiration, and I saw her use one on stage. So for Christmas, my mom surprised me with one. And I don't think it was, like, the same thing. It was. I think actually mine's used for the guitars or something at the time. But I don't know. But I would like play and loop my own vocals and just kind of like get. I would. I loved it so much. So I knew I wanted to pursue the arts in all. Any forms. I loved writing songs. I think I wrote my first song when I was like 12 and I. Yeah, I loved it. So I just loved it. I just wanted to create.
Nava
Do you remember what that song was about?
Ariana Grande
Let it rain.
Nava
Aw, that's a great little thing.
Ariana Grande
Thank you so much. I thought I was like Mary J. Blige or something. I thought I was like Natasha Bedingfield, I thought. But I like it was very of that era. Yeah, yeah.
Penn
Let what rain it?
Ariana Grande
All of. Baby, I'm open. Just all of it. And like, why are you writing that at like 12? What are you talking about?
Penn
I mean, I wrote a song at 14, I think called Stay With Me, which is like, Stay with me tonight. Like, come on. We're all just regurgitating what we hear.
Ariana Grande
That's beautiful. Do you have it?
Sophie
It's actually.
Nava
We actually have. We can send you a clip of Evan Rachel Wood singing it. Cause she knew it.
Penn
So. Yeah, we were friends at that point and. And I. You know, it's funny, you're talking about a looping machine. I really wanted one. I. I had a four track. But I love to stack harmonies. I just love, love harmonies. It's, you know. Again, you. I could teach you a little bit about it.
Nava
I would like Stay with me Tonight.
Ariana Grande
Isn't that it? Can you give us a few? A few?
Penn
No, I don't know. See, that was not the lyric. See?
Ariana Grande
Evan.
Penn
Evan.
Guest Host or Producer
No.
Ariana Grande
Why does.
Nava
Everyone is just these.
Penn
I don't remember what it was, but it was not. We could go out walking south, talking. That was too rhymy. And I would not like. I remember that there was verification. It had something repeating.
Nava
Anyway, this is such an abrupt pivot. But we have a question we ask every guest, which is to tell us an embarrassing story from that sort of early adolescent period. If anything comes to mind.
Ariana Grande
Oh God, I don't know. And this sounds. Sounds like so stupid, but I. I feel like I am not like easily embarrassed. I just feel like I am like I'll make like a terrible joke and carry on and I don't know, but I don't know something embarrassing about that. I had really bad ocd.
Sophie
Really?
Ariana Grande
Is that embarrassed? That's just sad. That's just bad. That's just bad.
Penn
What do you mean?
Ariana Grande
Like obsessive? Like. Like counting or like certain ritual like, certain had to be in the shower for a certain amount of times. Singing through Defying Gravity. Three times in the shower. I was. That's how I knew I had a long enough shower.
Penn
What's the song?
Ariana Grande
Defying Gravity. I'm not kidding. When I was really from Wicked, Literally, though, when I was like, can we remove. Then we're going to open the.
Penn
I could go have some more jerk chicken.
Ariana Grande
The song, it's a show called Wicked Kid.
Penn
I've never heard of Kid.
Ariana Grande
Sorry. No, Things like that. I feel like that's embarrassing is being.
Nava
That's embarrassing.
Sophie
No, I was just thinking when you said, I don't get embarrassed, and then Pen was talking about that, you know, singing the anthem and forgetting the words and not feeling embarrassed. I feel like that's something.
Penn
You think there's something wrong with us, which makes us.
Sophie
I feel like that's probably part of the genesis of becoming a performer. Like, you have to kind of have. Have the kids who don't have that to get embarrassed quickly and easily are not going to go on stage. They're not going to, like, develop the brand.
Penn
Okay. I agree with you on one hand, because it's like doing it in front of people. Okay, fine. But I was very, very easily embarrassed by very, very little things. And I want to recall that you.
Ariana Grande
Kissed a boy internally. Internally embarrassed.
Penn
Well, that's what I'm saying. So, like. So, yeah. So what we do, I think in this show, every now and then a guest will have, like, some kind of real prototypical. Like, it was a very embarrassing moment, and they all laughed at me. And it's very funny and all of that. But I think, you know, the essence of the question is. I don't know, it's like that soft center that everybody has. That everybody has. That can become sort of, like, horrified at being seen. Maybe it's just being seen or. I don't know, they're being seen in a way that you.
Chelsea Clinton
Yeah.
Penn
It doesn't feel like it's fair.
Sophie
Right.
Penn
You know.
Ariana Grande
Well, I think embarrassed and, like, saddened by opinion are two different things.
Penn
I think that's fair.
Guest Host or Producer
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
Because I think it's like. That's, of course, a massive piece of it, but it's like, when I was young, I just didn't. I, like, could easily laugh at myself, if that makes sense.
Penn
That's nice.
Ariana Grande
But all of it inside is all, you know.
Guest Host or Producer
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
That's why you become, I think, outward. Do anything for the laugh and. Yeah. I guess, sort of brave in that way, because inside, you're like, hey, what?
Penn
I suppose, yeah.
Ariana Grande
Shy.
Penn
How many times would you sing Defined gravity? In the shower?
Ariana Grande
In the shower by myself? I would. I would have to hear it three times to know that I had been in there long enough. But that was, like, that kind of ocd. It was like, numbers and, like, certain routine things.
Sophie
Cleanliness and stuff.
Ariana Grande
Cleanliness, definitely. I would use so much total germaphobe monopathophobe. Like, my hands would be cracking with. Because I'd use so much hand sanitizer and I'd be such a germaphobe.
Penn
How did Covid impact you then?
Ariana Grande
I was okay. I just was mindful of precautions that normal. But I'm so much older now. But when I was little, it was like, the scariest thing in the world to me.
Penn
When did it subside then? Like, that's interesting that it was younger and then not.
Guest Host or Producer
Not older.
Ariana Grande
Weird, because I talk to my therapist about this a lot. It goes away when I'm creating and when I'm busy with work, like, when I have a job. It went away when I started working a lot, when I started doing, like, finding community and theater and finding people and finding casts and distractions and kind of place to, like, put my feelings and, like, use my feelings. And then when I'm kind of, like, in an off season or, like, in between projects, I'm like, is that thing scary again? I'm like, am I like, is that thing coming back? I don't know. But I think, like, when art is in the forefront of my life, I don't have time to think about anything else. Everything really subsides when. Yeah, but. Yeah, but that was when I was young and I was much. I think I was so brave then. And now I'm, like, so soft and so, like, I'm like, a little. But it's. We're finding the balance now.
Penn
It seem.
Ariana Grande
It took a big circle. Big.
Penn
Yeah. It sounds to me like something of your new record is a Return to Tiny. Yeah.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, for sure. Thank you. It definitely feels like a certain coming home to myself has taken place over the last, like, two and a half years or something. But that. But people say that's what happens when you turn 30. I think it's just something we all kind of get.
Penn
Late 20s, 30.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, late 20s, 30. It's like you get there, you come home a little bit.
Penn
You talk about the return of Saturn. I mean, you have this Saturn interlude. And I. In preparing for this, I decided to, like. I'm like. I wanted to learn a little bit About Saturn. Here's a really interesting thing that will possibly lead you into a valuable reflection or not. We shall see.
Ariana Grande
We shall see.
Penn
So. So the way Saturn got its rings, it was a giant moon, frozen moon, and it passed. Saturn has this thing called the Roche point, which is where. But so here's the thing. So its gravity is so intense. I'm gonna pull you through. Just wait. Just you wait. Just you wait. But the Roche point is different for every object that hits it, right? So yeah, the roach point is. Listen to this.
Nava
This is what all your interviews are like.
Penn
You wanna know about Saturn?
Ariana Grande
No, no, no, I love it.
Penn
Sticking with you at this point, at the Roche point, the front of the object, the gravity is so intense that pulls it apart from the back. So Saturn.
Ariana Grande
Wait, no starting. Relevant.
Elizabeth Craft
No, no.
Ariana Grande
This is fabulous. It's like once you got fabulous.
Sophie
Forgot the first part.
Ariana Grande
So the rings.
Sophie
This is how the rings are.
Penn
This is how Saturn got its rings.
Sophie
Oh, okay, okay, okay.
Penn
But the point is.
Nava
Finish it.
Sophie
Tell us.
Penn
So the point is the Roche point and the. So any object that interacts with Saturn, okay, has its own Roche point, where its gravity so much lesser than Saturn's that the front of it starts to rip apart from the back of it.
Ariana Grande
Wow.
Penn
So if you were to hit the Roche point, the front of you would rip off.
Ariana Grande
It's all as matter, actually. Yeah.
Penn
Okay. Right. So.
Ariana Grande
So it's a collection of others of what's once been so.
Penn
Well, it's this one actually. It's not many other things. It's just one moon and this moon. So there's like an analogy from we're Baha'. Is, and so there's this body of writings called the Baha'.
Guest Host or Producer
I. Wr.
Penn
We can talk about that later off tape if you want, or on tape.
Nava
Lemonada would love that.
Penn
You can compare a moon to a system of belief. So what happened to Saturn's moon was that it was ripped apart by its own gravity.
Ariana Grande
Isn't that poetic?
Penn
And I was thinking that if there's any validity to this idea of Saturn returns, is that a belief system, system of your own is being torn apart, but then it's being reorganized. Rather than a single point, it surrounds you entirely in totally new fashion and form.
Ariana Grande
That's stunning.
Penn
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Nava
You landed it.
Penn
I did land it.
Ariana Grande
Well done. That was absolutely gorgeous.
Penn
And I was. And so I, having gone through late 20s and 30s myself, I just feel like you've turned this period into a piece of art. You've actually. I hadn't even done it You've made the rings. You took the thing. You know, you've, like, you've. You've. You've decorated yourself with this beautiful new gem, which is eternal sunshine.
Chelsea Clinton
Right?
Penn
That's what I'm saying.
Ariana Grande
That is so beautiful.
Penn
That's what you should say. Can we actually just roll it back and you say all of that?
Ariana Grande
That's such a beautiful. That's such a beautiful. Yeah.
Penn
Because it really does feel to me like, you know, spending a lot of time with your catalog these last days, seeing some videos and stuff, and the way you've spoken about makes me think that there's one moment, I think, in a Vogue interview where you spoke about beauty as a tool. I think we all do it. I know we all do it, especially if we're in the public eye. Using beauty to hide.
Nava
Yeah, that was so beautiful.
Penn
Yeah, really, really poignant.
Ariana Grande
I think it's just an interesting shift that happens naturally for people, hopefully sooner rather than later, where it's like, oh, maybe it doesn't need to be so, you know, I suppose for me, it just. I felt like I just wanted to kind of come home in that way. I don't know. I felt like everything about my not literally talking about style and aesthetic was just heavy and, like, a lot. And, you know, a lot of my fans still love that style, and I. I think it's beautiful, too, from afar, but I think it's just, like, I didn't realize at the time that it was more, was more, because I wanted to be me less and less and to give myself to people less and less. So it was just kind of like a weird way of building a character more and more and more so that. I don't know. And then it was finally like, oh, there's a little voice in there. And then it just came kind of found its way, come back around. But I don't. It's. It's funny how that can even show itself in something as little as, like, your makeup or your style or your clothes or your. Your every. I don't know. It's interesting. It's funny.
Nava
That's totally true.
Ariana Grande
It's so strange that that has to be out there forever. All of it. You know what I mean? That is. That is the weirdest part about doing. Choosing this with our lives is that like. Like, normal people, every person with a job that isn't. This changes and evolves and learns and has the ability to do that and be like, oh, shit.
Nava
And not everyone gets to weigh in.
Ariana Grande
You don't even have to Think about it every. I mean, you do, but, you know, you don't have to look at it and be reminded of it at a. Well, like, shop blind. It's just. It's an interesting thing that I, like, kind of do a lot of work on processing so that it doesn't scare me away from continuing.
Penn
No, I think that's. That's really. It's. It's. It's difficult. I mean, it's difficult. I. I think it's funny to me that a comment section of anything is literally the manifestation of your own personal fears.
Ariana Grande
Oh, my gosh.
Penn
Like, wow. That thing that I thought that maybe was just an insecurity that had no place.
Nava
That person is saying exactly that.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah.
Penn
So actually I was right about all the things that make me small and stupid and dumb and worthless.
Nava
And it's.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's strange. Cause it's like sometimes you think it might be okay, and then if you look, you will find it.
Penn
The sick part of your.
Ariana Grande
You know, it's like. It's just strange. It's strange. It's just. Yeah, yeah.
Nava
Ariana, I heard you say in a different conversation that sometimes, like, you try to change something that actually people have criticized that you feel is valid, and you change it, and then they criticize you for that.
Ariana Grande
Yes, it's strange.
Nava
And I was, like, really thinking about that. Like, yeah, that's true. You're in such a catchphrase, too. Like, no matter what you do, people are angry at you. Why didn't you do it sooner? You're not. It's not authentic that you're doing it now. It's in response. It's like what people want you to say. Trapped in, like, one very specific version of yourself. And that's like a prison, you know.
Ariana Grande
It is very interesting. I think when that started to happen, I kind of started to work with my therapist very closely on making peace with the fact that, like, okay, maybe I'm too. Maybe I'm searching too hard for this, like, or for people to get me, like, the Ariana that is me. And I think I just kind of need to realize that this is something that comes with making art for a living and with being in the public eye. And this is something that I have to make peace with and become healthy about so that I can continue to make art and to tell stories and to be an artist, because I love it more than anything in the world. I love singing. I love writing. I love acting. I want to do it. I want. I love my Fans, I just. It's like, it's such a. It's such a tricky thing mentally to process, especially when I started in this way at this level. I was like, you know, 19 or 20 when my music career started to become what it is. And it just was so far ahead of my development as a person. And I think I struggled for a long time when I was young, making peace with what this beautiful thing music had done to my life. And I think it's still something I work really hard on. Being healthy, having a healthy relationship to. Is this. Of course, yeah. And I'm thankful because I feel like before Eternal Sunshine, I was not happy to be doing it. I was not happy about it and I'm very happy about it. I love it. I've loved every step of this album cycle so far of Wicked and of the lead up to Wicked and the audition process. It's like feeding. I'm sorry. This is so long winded.
Nava
It's so self.
Ariana Grande
So meaning. It's so much. I'm sorry. But you know, it was just like a very informative and nutritious process and I think it brought me home to everything I love and helped me reprioritize, you know, that my relationship to those voices, to art, to everything. And it's funny.
Nava
Stick around. We'll be right back.
Chelsea Clinton
Is it just me or are things actually really scary right now? In the world of public health, every day brings another confusing headline or yet again a far fetched claim. Vaccines are somehow up for debate and parents are scrolling TikTok for medical advice. I'm Chelsea Clinton, an advocate, author, investor, teacher, and mom navigating this insane time right alongside you. I hope you'll join me on my new podcast, that Can't Be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. From Limonada Media and the Clinton foundation, that Can't Be True is out October 2nd.
Penn
You said something earlier that I really didn't know and I want to. Maybe I misheard. I'm not sure. But did you say that you created Victorious or that you were in conversation with the creator of that before?
Ariana Grande
No. Auditioned for.
Penn
Okay.
Ariana Grande
Victorious with Liz Gillies.
Penn
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. So we were on. No. Did I say.
Penn
No. No, no, no, no, no, no. I was just trying to understand.
Sophie
He was thinking about the Roche point.
Ariana Grande
The Roche point.
Penn
I was already on Saturn's Rings.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. No, no. Showrunner. No.
Penn
No. But I guess. Cause I.
Ariana Grande
So I. I had auditioned with Liz, who was in 13.
Penn
Okay. That's what it was. That's what it was. That's what it was.
Ariana Grande
We like flew to LA together, all green and nervous and wondering what the chances were. And we both got cast. So I was lucky to have my first two jobs, be with my two best friends. Like, my first one was Aaron and my second one was with Liz, and that was very lucky.
Penn
So you were talking about before, about the kind of community that being in a stage production or a TV show provides. I mean, that was for me, you know, I think the thing that actually drew me to it more than anything. For you, it sounds like there was also a really, really clear, strong, like, you know, I want to sing. Music is the future for you. Music is the path. But I guess I'm curious what was that like? Cause again, this is. How old were you?
Guest Host or Producer
14.
Ariana Grande
I was 14. And yeah, I flew out to audition with Liz Gillies for Victorious, and we were all very excited and we got cast and we were. It was the best news we could hear. I mean, we were young performers who just wanted to do this with our lives more than anything. And. Yeah, and we got to. And that was like, so, so beautiful. I think we had some very special memories and we feel so privileged to have been able to create those roles and be a part of something that was so special for a lot of young kids. I think we're reprocessing our relationship to it a little bit now, if that makes sense.
Penn
Yeah, completely.
Nava
What are your thoughts on child acting? Like we've had different child doctors on the show who feel differently, some who are like, I would never let my kids. I don't think anyone. And others who are open to it as long as there's like, certain conditions on set.
Ariana Grande
Obviously my relationship to it has and is currently and has been changing. And I'm reprocessing a lot of what the experience was like, you know, my. Yeah, I think that the environment needs to be made safer if kids are going to be acting. And I think. I think there should be therapists. I think there should be parents allowed to be wherever they want to be. And I think not only on kids sets. I think if anyone wants to do this or music or anything at the level of exposure that it means to be on TV or to do music with a major label or whatever there should be in the contract, something about therapy is mandatory twice a week or thrice a week or something like that. And I. I was actually talking to Max Martin about this the other day because he was always such an amazing person to talk to about the stressful Parts of what I was experiencing, yeah, and he was just amazing. But a lot of people don't have the support that they need. Need to get through being performing at that level at such a young age, but also dealing with some of the things that the survivors who've come forward. And there's not a word for how devastating that is to hear about. And so I think the environment just needs to be made a lot safer all around. And like I said, I'm still in real time reprocessing my relationship to it. But yeah, the beautiful thing about it was that Liz and I got to fall in love with these characters that we created and learn what it feels like to be so in a character that you can't, you know, separate yourself from it. And there were things like that. But yeah, the rest of it is still being worked on, definitely.
Penn
I mean, I think it's not just in Hollywood and it's not just on like, certain sets. It's undoubtedly true that anybody who's gonna be a really professional, competent, experienced, technically, like veteran and performer by the time you're in your, like, 20s, you have to have been doing it for a long time. And I don't think there's anybody who's gotten there who hasn't experienced, you know, all these degrees of what you, you should and could call exploitation. But as you're going through it, it's not just that one thing. There's a, there's there's a million layers to it.
Ariana Grande
Right.
Penn
And you can find. And as a person who then, then depends to some degree, not depends is not the right word because I'm saying this for myself as well. Like the greatest burden and the greatest gift of my life is being a like, high level professional performer. You know what I mean? Like, I have some of the most spiritual moments of understanding and insight and mercy and compassion when I'm in the middle of it. And I wouldn't be able to do that if I hadn't been doing it for so long. Long. You know what I mean? And, and so it's like takes and it gives. There's, there's, there's a lot to it. And I think the way that, as you said, I mean, devastating is a great word to describe the things that are coming to light now.
Chelsea Clinton
And.
Penn
Doesn't. It doesn't mean that it was all. It's just like across the board, a negative experience for everybody who's, who's doing it. And I think that's a really complicated and strange.
Ariana Grande
It changes it a lot. It Changes it a lot. And that's what I think I'm reprocessing.
Penn
Me, too, by the way. Like, I wasn't around. Yeah, I mean, I. Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot there.
Ariana Grande
I'm sorry. It's really tricky because also you and I, if I've gathered anything from our time together and from today for this, from just knowing you, and it's. It's. It's. We're so professional. So. Yeah, I think it's kind of like in any work environment. I'm glad that this conversation is happening here and also in the world, because it's also just kind of a cultural shift that's happening where it's not just actors and singers and whatever. If you ask anyone who's ever worked ever, if they've ever been sort of, like, you know, dealt with a boss that had a really bad ego and temper and whatever, or if they've been sexually harassed or even assaulted or. It's. It's not. It doesn't. It's everywhere. It is everywhere.
Penn
Statistically, it's prevalent.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, it's prevalent.
Penn
We point the finger a lot and fail to often remember. Like, this behavior is prevalent. It's normal.
Ariana Grande
We're told it's normal, and it's changing. And I think that's a really nice place to see the world in unison. Standing in a place where we're like, that's changing. Yeah, that's unacceptable. So, yeah, I think. Yes.
Nava
One of my favorite quotes. Sophie and Pen will agree with this. I have, like, a fire and brimstone personality, too. Like, I'm like, let the.
Penn
What's the other part?
Nava
Only exclusively. I'm like. I want people to be, like, punished. So anyway, this quote, it's very fire and brimstone, but I love it. But there's a quote that says children are a trust which no community can neglect with impunity. And I think about that a lot. Like, what does that mean? Like, who's harmed when you neglect children? The children, but also the community. The adults that don't show appropriate behavior towards children. And I feel like what's worse in the film industry, maybe, or more amplified, is like, a spirit of adult behavior towards children. What I've gathered from interviewing a lot of our guests who started as children. Children is that there's, like, two phenomena that are common. One is, like, infantilizing people, treating people who aren't children like children, and then treating children like adults. Like, expecting adult behavior from them or acting in ways letting children be exposed to things that, like, they're not developmentally ready for.
Ariana Grande
No, that's.
Nava
That's really, well, upsetting.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. And there's also a strange pattern that occurs where it's really taken advantage of how much it means to the young performer to get a laugh from Video Village. You're like, oh, shit, I'm doing something great. This is funny. This is good.
Penn
By the way, Video Village, we should say, is where all of the producers and the director are watching the monitors of what's being captured on camera.
Ariana Grande
Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting because I think that was speaking specifically about our show. I think that was something that we. We were convinced was, like, the cool thing about us is that, like, we pushed the envelope with our humor and the innuendos were like. We were told. And convinced as well that it was, like, the cool differentiation. And I don't know, I think it just all happened so quickly. And now looking back on some of the clips, I'm like, that's damn. Like, really?
Penn
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
And that shit. My daughter, you know, sorry. You know, just. You think about it, it's like, what I. If I had a daughter, it's like, yeah. And.
Nava
Yeah, the craziest part of that is, like, how many people have to approve it. Like, when you start working in. So many adults, at least so many adults approved that.
Ariana Grande
So that's.
Nava
It's like, there's no spirit of responsibility towards children.
Ariana Grande
Right.
Nava
There's a spirit of, like, a bottom line.
Ariana Grande
There is a bottom line. You know, there's a bottom line. And then the things that weren't approved for the network were snuck onto, like, our website or whatever it was. And that is another discovery. But going into it, I guess I'm upset. But, you know, towards the end, my mom was allowed to come to set when I was like, you know, a little.
Sophie
She wasn't allowed to come to set.
Ariana Grande
When we were younger. They were allowed to come to run through sometimes or, like, things like that. Like, occasionally, I think. But yeah, towards the end, she was there, like, a little more. And we've been talking a lot about this recently, and she's been like, sort.
Penn
Of my mom and I have too, by the way.
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
Penn
Well, just. I mean, because.
Ariana Grande
Because it's like, it's of its awakening.
Penn
Yeah. You have to start to process, like, okay, so now, knowing what we all know, neither would I want my children to be in an environment like that, nor does my mother, in retrospect, think that I should have been in an environment like that. So, you know, then how do we kind of reconcile around that, as you know, for the sake of our relationship.
Ariana Grande
Yeah. And how do you. You also, like, put it to use? How do we put it to use? How do we. What is there. How is there an end to things like this? I was actually talking about this with Max, who I said earlier, because I think that in my contract as a Republic Records artist, I want to see them add moving forward. I need to call Mondi Libman about this. Monty, I have an idea. No, but I think it should be be provided that if you're going to be doing this on this scale and your life is going to turn into something that, you know, it is if you do it, if it goes well, and if you get to do it and you get to be on the stage at the Grammys and, you know, your dreams are coming true, there should be an element that is mandatory of therapy of a professional person to unpack what this experience of your life changing so drastically does to you at a young age, at any age. It's just really gets you for a second. Yeah.
Nava
Arianna, I want to say completely sincerely that meeting you now, I mean, you're just so lovely and kind and sweet, but even from afar, I just feel. And Pen, I've had conversations with Pen about this. Completely sincere. You're so strong. Like, you've gone through some incredible things. Things. And I just feel like grace has to be one of your lead attributes as a person. Like, you seem to have grace. Yeah.
Ariana Grande
That's nice.
Nava
Thank you.
Ariana Grande
You got me. Thank you. That's nice.
Nava
It's true.
Chelsea Clinton
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
Thank you. I think everyone in this room is very strong.
Guest Host or Producer
Thank you.
Ariana Grande
And yeah, you don't know them.
Penn
You don't really know them.
Ariana Grande
Oh, I was. I was only talking about. No, I'm kidding. No, but thank you. My therapist is doing great. That was actually. Can I just. Just a quick detour.
Chelsea Clinton
Yeah.
Ariana Grande
Speaking of the funniest things that have happened. Happened in the, like, world that is so many degrees removed from what we are actually doing in real life. One of the funniest stories when I was becoming whatever I became, was that my therapist couldn't even work with me anymore. I think it was. Of course it was. But they said that my therapist couldn't even work with me anymore. I've been with that therapist for 15 years. Wow.
Penn
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Ariana Grande
No, we literally send it to each other from time to time as, like a joke. And I'm like, still going strong.
Elizabeth Craft
Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada Shows without the ads subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads With Lemonada Premium, are you looking for ways.
Chelsea Clinton
To make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.
Ariana Grande
That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.
Chelsea Clinton
Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.
Podcast: Podcrushed
Hosts: Penn Badgley, Nava Kavelin, Sophie Ansari
Guest: Ariana Grande
Episode Date: December 24, 2025
In this special rerun of Podcrushed, Penn, Nava, and Sophie welcome Ariana Grande for a heartfelt and often hilarious conversation about her middle school years, family influences, beginnings as a performer, and her reflections on growing up in the spotlight. The episode navigates the unique pressures of child stardom, the pursuit of creative passions, and Ariana’s evolving relationship with her own artistry and mental health. The tone is candid, playful, and sometimes poignant—offering listeners both laughs and insight into the challenges and joys of Ariana’s journey.
Family Inspiration:
Supportive but Non-pushy Parenting:
Early Signs of Being an Out-of-the-Box Kid:
Comedy as a Lifeline:
On Performing and SNL:
Penn’s Compliment:
Recalling Her First Big Performance:
Early Improv:
Thirteen: The Musical:
Community Theater Roots:
Not Attending Regular School:
Strict Parenting, Secret Crushes:
On Embarrassment and OCD:
Art as Distraction & Healing:
First Song:
Penn’s Saturn Analogy (one of the most memorable moments):
Ariana’s Self-Reflection:
Victorious & Community:
On Child Acting & Industry Reform:
Industry as Microcosm of Broader Issues:
Nava’s Fire & Brimstone Reflection:
On Pushing Boundaries in Children’s TV:
Comedy as Intimacy:
“There's something about making a person laugh that's like, we're comfortable. We trust each other. We're here. Like, laughter is just the best thing in the entire world to me.” —Ariana (07:29)
On Creating Art as Healing:
“Everything really subsides when...art is in the forefront of my life, I don't have time to think about anything else.” —Ariana (43:44)
Penn’s Saturn Rings Analogy:
“If there's any validity to this idea of Saturn returns, it's that a belief system...is being torn apart, but then it's being reorganized. Rather than a single point, it surrounds you entirely in totally new fashion and form.” —Penn (47:37)
“You've made the rings. You took the thing...You've decorated yourself with this beautiful new gem, which is Eternal Sunshine.” —Penn (48:05)
On Letting Go of Embarrassment:
“I am not like, easily embarrassed. I just feel like...I'll make like a terrible joke and carry on and I don't know. I feel like I am like, I could easily laugh at myself.” —Ariana (42:32)
On Industry Change:
“We're told it's normal, and it's changing. And I think that's a really nice place to see the world in unison standing in a place where we're like, that's changing. Yeah, that's unacceptable.” —Ariana (62:53)
On Therapy and Support in Show Business:
“If you're going to be doing this on this scale...there should be an element that is mandatory...of a professional person to unpack what this experience...does to you at a young age, at any age.” —Ariana (66:38)
Nava’s Praise for Ariana’s Grace:
“I just feel like grace has to be one of your lead attributes as a person. Like, you seem to have grace.” —Nava (68:11)
This episode artfully balances humor, nostalgia, and genuine introspection, staying true to Podcrushed’s spirit of exploring the emotional complexities and awkward moments of adolescence. Ariana's openness about mental health, early ambition, personal evolution, and the realities of child stardom delivers immense value—both for longtime fans and listeners simply seeking a relatable, honest conversation about growing up, creativity, and grace under pressure.
Memorable Moment:
Penn’s Saturn analogy draws audible delight and earnest reflection from Ariana, setting up one of the most thoughtful exchanges on personal growth via planetary metaphor.
For listeners:
You’ll walk away knowing both the playful, quick-witted Ariana and the thoughtful adult who’s still navigating, with grace, the complex journey from child star to mature artist.