Julia Louis-Dreyfus (1:43)

They're hot.

Penn Badgley (1:43)

Stella, everybody loves this book. What more do we need to say? It's a bestseller. Did I mention that we're best selling co authors?

Nava Kavlan (1:50)

Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (1:51)

Pen, what was it like to do press with two normies?

Penn Badgley (1:54)

It was a little stilted and awkward. Frankly, I think I'm better on my own.

Nava Kavlan (2:00)

Call in Elizabeth and Victoria. Get rid of these two.

Penn Badgley (2:03)

They clearly have no media training. Yeah, actually, no. You know, I find media training to be. First of all, I've never had media training, but, but, but I find people who are media trained to be. It's just, it's just. It's like. It's like a professional athletes, particularly European soccer players, when they're like. Well, you know, it's all about. It's all about the game and it's all about the teammates and the ball. And it's about the ball. It's about the game. You're like, okay. You okay?

Sophie Ansari (2:28)

And I learned nothing.

Penn Badgley (2:29)

Yeah, no, I have that. It was a different experience than usual, because this will sound like a bad kind of compliment, but it's. But it is interesting. It's true. It was the first time I'd done press for something in a while that didn't have this kind of guaranteed success apparatus behind it. You know what I mean? When you're on one of the top Netflix shows, you kind of know that Netflix is gonna. Netflix is gonna place that thing where it needs to be or whatever the thing might be. These giant corporations, they know what they're doing. And although Simon and Sho, of course, a big publisher, I do feel like it's different. Us writing a book and it succeeding is not the most obvious thing.

Sam Smith (3:11)

No, you know, ragtag team.

Penn Badgley (3:15)

You know, it's maybe a little random, a little strange and unlikely. So that was different. And I think. And I think so many things about it. I mean, like, did not see being an author so much on my bingo card for this year, as they say, or a bestselling author. And honestly, doing it alongside you two, I think it was just the perfect way. I would have never done this on my own, you know, but I'm actually really glad that I've done it, and I'm really proud to be right there alongside you. I'm really proud of everything that we wrote. And, yeah, so it was like, very, very deeply meaningful while also being wholesome.

Nava Kavlan (3:59)

Love that.

Penn Badgley (4:00)

All right, enough about me today. This is a good one. This is a good bit of a powerhouse one. We have Sam Smith, singer, songwriter, the powerhouse voice behind hits like Stay With Me Too Good at Goodbyes, Unholy. I mean, there's many, many, many more, but we don't have time to list them. Sam has become one of the defining artists of the past decade. And I was reminded of that listening to their catalog, I was really, really impressed and excited. Preparing for this interview. Sam immediately just opened up a delightful human being. I'm really glad this is one of our relatively few episodes where I get to be in person. Unfortunately, Naba and Sophie, we kept them in the dark. We kept them far, far away, but they also left their indelible, inimitable, invaluable. That means it's not valuable, right? They're invaluable contributions to the interview space. No, they really. I. Guys, I loved this one. I really, really loved talking to Sam. I know you two feel the same way. This is in support of their residency here in Brooklyn. So if you're not in Brooklyn, I sorry, but it's a pretty special time for this artist blossoming. You'll hear all about it in our interview. Stick around. You're not going to want to miss it.

Sophie Ansari (5:29)

As we head into the cozy season where the days are shorter and the nights are colder, I love taking the opportunity to slow and do something that's just for me, which is rare as a mom. So it's really important that I do it. I figured why not get a head start on this year's New Year's resolution with Rosetta Stone. Learning a new language from the comfort of my home in my PJs, my favorite thing to wear. Sounds like a win win to me, honestly. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive methods help you naturally absorb and retain a new language from your computer or whenever it fits your schedule. I have been running into a lot of Spanish speakers recently. I mean, I was running into a lot of Spanish speakers in la and now I'm in Texas and I'm still running into a lot of Spanish speakers. And I always, you know, people kind of expect me to speak Spanish sometimes. I get that quite a bit, like, oh, did your mom speak to you in Spanish? People aren't quite sure if I'm Latino or not. And so it is really my goal to be able to just like seamlessly answer, yeah, I speak Spanish and to have it be the most normal thing in the world. I that's. There's nothing I want more than that, honestly. It's on the top of my priority list. The issue for me with having the courage to speak in a language that I'm learning is feeling like I don't have the accent down and so not feeling confident enough to just like go with it. That's why I love this feature on Rosetta Stone called True Accent. It's a speech recognition feature that provides real time feedback on your accent. That's always been the hardest part of learning a new language. I feel like it's tricky to just like nail it. You think you've got it, but you actually don't. And so I love that about Rosetta Stone. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. PodCrush listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com PodCrush to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to RosettaStone.com PodCrushed and start learning today.

Penn Badgley (7:45)

The folks at Ollie know how special your relationship is with your dog. While your kids may grow up and head off to school, your dog stays right by your side. Just peeing right on your ankles, you know, is waiting for that next walk. Wants that belly scratch or me frankly. They just have needs that don't end. Am I right? I want the absolute best for my dog. As much as I might make jokes about I resent his neediness, the truth is he's a lovely, lovely little guy. And I gotta tell you, he recently went through a bout of sickness where there was a little bit of concern. He's getting older and I was reminded just how sweet he is. One thing that has given me real confidence going through his bout was that I've switched to Ollie food. And this is no lie here. He eats Ollie and only Ollie. He's extremely picky. He's. He's hardly eaten any other foods before for very long. He keeps coming back. I think it's probably because Ollie offers fresh protein packed meals that are made with real human grade ingredients. I have not tried it, but I don't need to. I can tell my dog's personal favorite. I think, I mean, of course he hasn't told me, but from what I can tell, I think he loves the beef with sweet potatoes. Maybe the turkey with cranberries is a close second. He also loves the lamb, he loves the chicken. I gotta say, he kinda loves them all, which is so rare for him. I mean it's actually, I think the only food that he's ever consistently come back for more than a period of like, you know, a month or two. He's a husky. He's extremely, he's got this like this idiosyncratic personality. He's like just controlled chaos. He's got too much intelligence and personality, too much judgment, too particular of a palate. And yet, no lie, he loves Ollie. And I love Ollie just as much because they make it easy for mealtime. Each meal is perfectly portioned and comes in mess free packaging. There's even a scoop for easy serving and a storage container so any extra doesn't stink up your fridge. Your dog's well being starts with their food and that's why Ollie delivers fresh human grade food that your dog will love. Head to ollie.com podcrushed Tell them all about your dog and use code podcrush to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe. Today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O l l I e.com podcrushed and enter code podcrush to get 60% box. Sam Smith, thank you for being here. Thank you. As I shared with you a moment ago, if you're ready to go there, we start at 12 years old. And to give, you know, when we can, we like to give a little special color to our standard question of a snapshot of you at 12. You have spoken about this concept for you, this place for you. A pink house, right? Pink house in the woods. And how different spaces you've spoken about, like dance floors, et cetera, et cetera. Different spaces shape who you are. So we're curious what are the different places and forces shaping Sam at 12.

Sam Smith (11:05)

Well, at 12, I was in. At 12 hours in my pink house. Have you heard of Mr. Blobby?

Penn Badgley (11:12)

Mr. No.

Sam Smith (11:14)

Mr. Blobby, no.

Penn Badgley (11:17)

What is that?

Sam Smith (11:17)

I used to call it the Mr. Blobby House. He was a kid's cartoon in the. It's very scary actually, if you Google it, but it's this man in a large pink suit and it had yellow polka dot spots, okay. And as a kid, I moved into this house and it's always been kind of this dream house. I call it Mr. Blobby House because it was this beautiful pastel pink house. And my mom had saved up her whole life, really, to get a house like this. And then it had little yellow spots of moss on it. And so I called it the Mr. Blobby House. And it was such a dream. It was an incredible house and just so many informative moments and memories there. So at 12, I was there with my two younger sisters, okay, who would have been 6 and 7 at the time. And I was just at 12 years old. It was like I was in secondary school. And secondary school was brutal, especially those years for me in. It was a Catholic school in England, and it was just. Yeah, it was. When I think back to 12, I just think about, like, the discomfort of being in school at that time. It was. I was so gay, and that was always. My thing is I was never in it. And there was no closets in my life.

Penn Badgley (12:38)

Right? There was no question.

Sam Smith (12:39)

There was no closets. I was just so obviously gay and everyone knew before I did. So secondary school was. Was just. Those first few years were crazy because everyone was just calling me gay the whole time.

Penn Badgley (12:55)

I'm sorry to laugh because just the way because obviously you have, like lived through it and accepted so much. So I'm laughing for you.

Sam Smith (13:04)

You can laugh because I was a funny. I was a funny kid. I was like. I wasn't. I was. I was popular.

Penn Badgley (13:11)

Okay.

Sam Smith (13:11)

I was. I was really chubby and round and pink.

Penn Badgley (13:15)

Were you tall?

Sam Smith (13:15)

Yeah, I was tall.

Penn Badgley (13:17)

You were?

Sam Smith (13:17)

Okay, yeah, I was really chubby and round and I just, like, was just addicted to sausage rolls.

Sophie Ansari (13:26)

Who is it?

Nava Kavlan (13:28)

Sounds great.

Sam Smith (13:29)

And I was. I was just singing left, right and center. Just singing the whole time.

Penn Badgley (13:33)

It sounds pretty obvious.

Sam Smith (13:34)

It was very obvious. It was very obvious. But I was very. I was very dramatic. I was very sensitive, but I was. I had loads of girlfriends all the time. Like, I had no problems making friends. I had loads of girlfriends around me. I was. I was all the girls best gay friend.

Penn Badgley (13:50)

What was the year? Was it. Was it like 2000? You're young, so it was like 2002, something like that.

Sam Smith (13:56)

Must have been maybe 2005.

Penn Badgley (13:58)

Oh, that's right. Yeah. But that's like, that's. That's late in the game and thinking culturally.

Sam Smith (14:05)

Yeah, I mean, I came out when I was actually 10 years old to my best friend who was a girl in primary school, and then kind of kept it a secret with her for a few years. And then in school it was just like when in school, thinking I was gonna keep this secret, but everyone was just like, gay boy again, I'm laughing for you. And we say, no, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay.

Penn Badgley (14:29)

That's hard. It was hard, yeah. Was it maybe. Was there a period of difficulty maybe before that? Like.

Sam Smith (14:36)

No, no. Okay. It was in primary. I have beautiful memories of primary school where I was kind of accepted to be wherever I wanted to be. And being young and queer, it was kind of nurtured all the way up until, I'd say around the age of 11 and 12, which is when you just started to just be exposed to boys in school that just were so angry, obviously from shit that they were going through at home. Can I swear on this I can?

Nava Kavlan (15:07)

Yeah, you can. Sam. I've heard you talk about this on your own podcast, the Pink House, by the way, everyone should listen. It's a beautiful, like, such a welcoming podcast.

Sam Smith (15:15)

Oh, thank you.

Nava Kavlan (15:16)

And I think you talked about how at that time when it was really challenging, you would listen to Always Be My Baby on your podcast again and again. Sorry. On your ipod. I love that song. It's such a good song. But I'm curious, what was it about? Mariah or that song or music in general, that felt like a safe space for you.

Sam Smith (15:32)

I mean, as like, all of my friends were women. My sisters. I had two sisters. I've very. My mom was the breadwinner in our family, so my mum would go to work every day. She was a banker in the city and my dad was a house husband. And my dad is very soft and sensitive and quite effeminate. So I was just surrounded by feminine, soft, beautiful energy my whole life. So when it came to music, just the power in the storytelling from the divas. And not just the divas, like, you know, even I was obsessed with Winehouse and Corinne Bailey, Ray and Lily Allen and just all female artists from a young age and to the point where there was just. I just didn't listen to men at all. Probably to the age of like, 19. I just didn't listen to male singers. I had an absolute block when it came to male voices and kind of male anything. Male comedians. Yeah, just. Just anything. I was just obsessed with. With. With women. I think that when I look back at that now, I think that there's. There's just such a. There's such a strength to those female voices. You know, they were going through so much, and I think that it matched with what I was going through because I was. I. I had a hard childhood of being queer and being so loud and effeminate and too big always, just too much, the whole time. And so that's why I think that I really just bonded with the divas in my life and those experiences, because they were larger than life people.

Penn Badgley (17:14)

It's true that you really don't have. I've thought of this many times before, and there isn't the equivalent of a pop diva for a man. I don't think there is. Right. I can't think of one.

Sam Smith (17:24)

Well, there is. Me. I'm joking.

Sophie Ansari (17:25)

I was gonna say.

Sam Smith (17:26)

No, I'm joking. No, no, no, I'm joking. Do you mean a pop diva for a man? As in, like. As in like a man that's a pop diva?

Penn Badgley (17:34)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (17:35)

Well, I think the closest for me growing up was George Michael.

Penn Badgley (17:39)

Okay.

Sam Smith (17:39)

Yeah, yeah, was George Michael. And I'd even say, like, Stevie Wonder, actually.

Penn Badgley (17:43)

Yes. So you go. You go a bit.

Sam Smith (17:45)

Elton John's a diva.

Penn Badgley (17:46)

That's true. I mean, Prince and Michael, so they're.

Sam Smith (17:49)

But it's a bit like. There's many. But it was. But in terms of, like, queer femme divas.

Penn Badgley (17:57)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (17:57)

And it's something that I've learned a lot, actually. I'VE been. There's an incredible artist. You may know them, they're. No, her. Her name's Anoni. Yeah, Anoni. And so powerful.

Penn Badgley (18:10)

I mean, the most powerful. I've actually not listened as much since the, like, formal transition of the name and stuff. But, I mean, previous works are previously.

Sam Smith (18:19)

Known as Anthony the Johnsons.

Penn Badgley (18:21)

One of the most incredible live shows I've ever.

Sam Smith (18:24)

Me too. The greatest. I went to see them live and recently and I've actually, like, we've. When I moved to New York, they. We started to have tea parties together. I don't think they wouldn't mind me sharing this.

Penn Badgley (18:36)

Yeah, I feel the vibe. I did Anoni before and that makes a lot of sense.

Sam Smith (18:44)

They're incredible. And she sat me down and.

Penn Badgley (18:48)

She.

Sam Smith (18:48)

Schooled me a little bit and it's something that I needed and, you know.

Penn Badgley (18:53)

Can I ask when this was.

Sam Smith (18:54)

It's been the last. Over the last year.

Penn Badgley (18:56)

Oh, great.

Sam Smith (18:57)

And I've just had a bit of educating because, you know, I haven't. I'm part of a very small lineage of queer. Femme. Queer femme. Trans, non. Binary musicians and voices from the uk. And if you think about the generations, it's me and then before me is Anoni and then before Anoni is Boy George. Yeah. Right. And I never really understood that. And weirdly, I had this, this synergy with. As a kid, I watched documentaries on Boy George and it was always so insanely close to my life. And then now as I've got older, I've started to realize, like, oh, gosh, like that they are my mothers, they are my, My, My lineage in, in. In what I do as an artist. And it's. Yeah, it's, it's very interesting thing I could talk about.

Penn Badgley (19:50)

That's actually really cool. So we, we will get into the sort of the maturation and the, and the evolution of you as an artist. Because I do really like that and I do have a lot of. Of questions once we get into your career and your work. So let's, let's, let's think about all those formative times where, you know, the seeds of what's now blossoming.

Sam Smith (20:14)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (20:15)

You know, were being planted. So it sounds like you had a lot of support at home.

Sam Smith (20:22)

Crazy.

Penn Badgley (20:22)

I mean, which is beautiful because not. It's, you know, not everybody has that, especially with the orientation you have, the sort of identity you have. You know, that's like. That's really great. I'm curious. So it sounds like your father set the bar very high for you.

Sam Smith (20:36)

Yeah. I think with There was almost two, two me's at home. Like there was, there was me as the, the child that was growing up and a non binary queer child growing up and trying to find my place in the world in that way. But then there's also the singing me, which is something that was a superpower and a burden from a very young age. I started singing when I was, people first started hearing me sing when I was like 10. I sang around a friend's house once and then they were like, well, the mum, the mum of a friend was like, what?

Penn Badgley (21:13)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (21:14)

And then they had me singing a duet with the girl that I came out to, Beth, who was amazing, who I still know now, and she's just the best. And so we would sing together. So at school, like, or we went to like holiday camps together as kids and were like, sing for sweet tokens and stuff. So we'd sing together. And that's how I started to get heard by my school and stuff. And my parents would hear me singing in the car. But from a very young age it was just like clear.

Penn Badgley (21:44)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (21:45)

Well, clear to everyone else, not to me. I was always. And still to this day, I find it hard because I don't hear what people hear. Wow.

Sophie Ansari (21:52)

I'm curious what you mean by that. You said it was a superpower, but also a burden. What do you mean by that?

Sam Smith (21:59)

When I, when I sing, people stop and listen. From a young age it happened and that was something that felt quite powerful even as a, as a young child. It was, it was nice, but it was a burden because I am petrified to sing in front of people. I find it, I find it really, really hard.

Penn Badgley (22:18)

Still.

Sam Smith (22:19)

Still. Really? Yeah. Like, I find it really hard.

Penn Badgley (22:22)

Really?

Sam Smith (22:23)

Yeah, I find it, it's, it's. I, I had a panic attack on stage when I was 26, which was kind of the peak of everything. Yeah. I mean, it changed, it changed my life. I, I, it was in South Africa and I froze on stage and couldn't sing for a year after that. And I didn't tell anyone publicly. Wow. Which I'm happy I didn't. So I could work my way back to performing again.

Penn Badgley (22:44)

Yeah. Then there wasn't like a headline.

Sam Smith (22:45)

Still to this day, I'm just like shitting myself. Wow. The whole time, I have to say.

Penn Badgley (22:50)

I mean, so as a performer, I feel a little bit silly calling myself one one in your presence. But, but, but I, no, but I, so I am so. Hey, you don't like to sing, so. Okay, so.

Sam Smith (23:03)

You're incredible.

Penn Badgley (23:03)

Thank you. So.

Sam Smith (23:07)

You know, John Takamus Dies, my favorite movie ever.

Nava Kavlan (23:09)

Really?

Penn Badgley (23:10)

Really?

Sam Smith (23:11)

Ever, Ever. Wow.

Penn Badgley (23:13)

Okay. I think that might make three of us.

Sam Smith (23:15)

I'm not one of them.

Penn Badgley (23:20)

That's interesting to hear. Okay.

Nava Kavlan (23:22)

Sam, I have a question about a different kind of performance in your premiere episode. You talk about the dance floor as, like, a place of. Like, a place of freedom in this, like, wild city. And I was curious what your relationship to dance has been throughout your life.

Sam Smith (23:35)

Oh, just always loved dancing, even from the age of 12, like, being a kid, just dancing all the time. I used to actually, like, get into, like, my mum's clothes and lock my door in my bedroom, and I just, like, dance in my mom's clothes to like. To like, like pop music and all the pop divas the whole time. It's actually how I got my exercise as a child.

Sophie Ansari (23:57)

Yeah, that's perfect. I think you had mentioned somewhere that as a kid, you used to look in the mirror when you were crying, like you'd watch yourself. And I used to do the same thing. And I have some thoughts about why I did that. About, like, you know, as a youngest child, just like, wanting to be witnessed when lots of people in the family were not, you know, I just kind of was. Was taken along for the ride and wasn't seeing a lot. But I'm curious what you think it was for you. What was that about?

Sam Smith (24:29)

Me and my friend used to call the mirror montages by ourselves. I don't know. I don't know what it was. I used a kid. I was just fascinated at seeing myself cry. You've just made, I think, made sense of it for me by saying that. I think that I was so strong as a child, like, coming out. Coming out at such an early age. And when people would tease me in school, I wasn't like. I'd be like. I'd give them hell in the playground and I'd have.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus (24:59)

I love that.

Sam Smith (25:00)

And I'd have these amazing girlfriends that would jump in front of me and fight the guys and, like. And I'd be sent out of class for fighting back. You know, I was a loudman and didn't go down without a fight. So the kind of inner. The sadness that I had to deal with later on in my life, that was happening inside. I think that it came out by myself. And what you just said is so true. I don't think anyone got to see me cry in that way. So maybe I was intrigued by how it looked.

Penn Badgley (25:33)

Something that's just striking me meeting you before we started the Interview, you said you're an open book, and I find that's to be very true. And so I guess I'm just wondering, like, of course, all people struggle, and it's so clear, like, you're in touch with your struggles, which is how you communicate as an artist. It's part of why you have a voice, you know, that mysterious thing. So. But I guess I'm just really interested in. You're talking about feeling, so just, like, uncomfortable all the time. I'm curious, what. If you can name a thing or a few things, what do you think it was?

Sam Smith (26:12)

For me, it was always my weight.

Penn Badgley (26:15)

Okay.

Sam Smith (26:15)

My. My. My queerness was something that I could handle and I could have a grasp on it, but it was my. My weight as a kid was the hardest thing for me in. In school. And weirdly, the thing I probably got teased the most about.

Penn Badgley (26:29)

Right.

Nava Kavlan (26:29)

Okay.

Sam Smith (26:30)

Yeah, because I. And I. I've spoken about it before, and I get misquoted all the time on this stuff, but I. I had surgery on my chest when I was 13 years old.

Penn Badgley (26:42)

Wow.

Sam Smith (26:43)

And because I had, like, a growing chest, and there was, you know, all sorts of reasons why, but mainly I was just getting so teased. I couldn't, like, go swimming in school, and I couldn't, like. Like, getting changed in the locker room was hell. So I. I got liposuction when I was 13 years old.

Penn Badgley (27:06)

And what was it like convincing your parents?

Sam Smith (27:09)

They would. They were supportive.

Penn Badgley (27:10)

They were.

Sam Smith (27:11)

They were. They were hugely supportive of the whole thing because they just saw how much it was crippling everything. But honestly, I was. It was just all a struggle with food and stuff. And the liposuction was. It was. It worked, but it was also a nightmare because they gave me a bandage.

Penn Badgley (27:26)

Which is like a bra.

Sam Smith (27:27)

Which is like a bra. But I would. I was only meant to wear it for a month, but I. If I wore the bandage, it meant that I would get to the front of the lunch queue because no one. Because everyone had to be sensitive about my chest. So I just kept productive. So, yeah, so I kept the. I kept this bandage on for nearly a year, and I'd be like, oh, oh, don't come close to me. And then I just get first of lunch queue, and I'd eat more and eat more and eat more. And so the surgery never really worked.

Penn Badgley (27:59)

Right.

Sam Smith (28:00)

Because I just love food.

Nava Kavlan (28:01)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (28:02)

I think that actually beautifully. That beautifully captures this interesting. I don't want to say contradiction, but, you know, we're all. Many things like. That beautifully captures something of what you're saying is, like, this thing that made you painfully insecure. You were also like, hey, check this out. I'm gonna skip the line. Yeah, that's very interesting.

Sam Smith (28:20)

I made lemonade out of the situation. I'd say my weight was. My weight is what made me feel uncomfortable in school. And just, as I said before, just. I was always just too much. It's something I still deal with now in my relationship. I'm in now. It's just. I'm a lot. Like, I just naturally. Just. Even me being quiet is a lot. And so it's. And. And it's. And that's. And that's hard. And I think that's down to the. To the way I speak to, you know, what I wear, all these things. It's just that it's so I. For many, many years, at the beginning of my career, which all of you knew me from, at the beginning of my career, that was me trying to toning it down. Toning it down, but enjoying the doors that were opening because I was toning it down. It was fabulous.

Penn Badgley (29:10)

Like, I'm gonna tone it down. Let's get 17 people behind me singing, you know, like, that's. It's amazing. That's you toning it down.

Sophie Ansari (29:20)

And we'll be right back.

Penn Badgley (29:25)

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Sophie Ansari (31:07)

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Nava Kavlan (33:23)

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Sophie Ansari (35:15)

A conversation with Ocean Vuong on your podcast and in it you said that we could all kind of benefit from bringing parts of ourselves from when we were children into our adult lives, which I really loved and I'm curious if you think back to your Child self. What would you benefit from bringing into your present?

Penn Badgley (35:37)

It's a great question.

Sophie Ansari (35:39)

Thank you.

Sam Smith (35:40)

I wrote it myself from, from, from. I just loved when I was in primary school, like, from the age of, like, 3 to 10 years old. I just didn't compare myself to anyone. That's what I just didn't left and right anyone. And I just, I. I didn't have a lot of jealousy when I was young. So I think that's something now that I. I'm just really trying to master that so much.

Penn Badgley (36:05)

It's hard to master that answer. That's. That sounds really nice.

Sam Smith (36:08)

Yeah. Not looking left and right.

Nava Kavlan (36:10)

Yeah. Sam, I was thinking about when you were sharing just a moment ago about, like, feeling, like, being too much. I think I've shared this before, but I think the best piece of advice I've ever gotten was from a friend named Isaac. And it was, like, at a time where I just kept being really interested in men who wanted, like, really meek women. And I'm not a meek woman. And so I would feel like, oh, I'm like, I'm too much. I'm too much. So I had, like, opened up to him about it and he said, just find someone who likes the default version of you. Like, that's what you should look for. Don't try to change the person that you are. And that's something that I still, like, sit with. And when I start to feel that way, like, oh, I'm too loud, I'm too outspoken. I'll just be like, it's okay. Like, there's someone who likes that in a woman. There's, like, people who like that. Yeah.

Sam Smith (36:54)

My boyfriend says something so beautiful. Said there's a lid for every part. And I think it's such a nice thing because. And there is. You just. You don't have to change. And I always. All my relationships before my, My, my. The person I'm with now, it was just. I never. I just didn't like myself enough to. And, and that reflected in the relationship. And so after my. My first ever proper relationship, I took. I took five years being single. And in those five years, I did so much work on myself through therapy and just with all, like, body stuff and, and analyzing my mental health and just. I've done so much work over the years, and so now I'm. I go into the relationship and everything he brings is in addition to what I already have and that I have built, which is a beautiful life without a lover, you know?

Nava Kavlan (37:50)

Yeah, that's beautiful, Sam.

Sophie Ansari (37:51)

We ask all our Guests about their first experiences with love and heartbreak. You're talking about your experiences now as an adult, but what was it like for you as a 12 year old if you were having any of those feelings or whenever you did have those feelings?

Sam Smith (38:07)

My first. All of my first experiences, which I think a lot of queer people can relate to. What? Well, maybe they can. I don't know. I mean queer people of my generation now, young gay kids. And they're able to have partners in school and go through those things. For me, it was all make believe in my head. It was wild. I would fall in love with these straight guys in school and I would, you know, be around my. Around my friends houses and I just daydream the whole time about this. This one guy. And then I would claim that I was in love with a guy who I probably was like. He was probably like the lead in a show that we would do because I do all these pantomimes and like I did so many shows as a kid. It was exhausting. And so there. I probably like had a nice friendship with. With the guy that I was in love with. But I. Yeah, I just. I fell in love with the guys. There's this one guy actually that I. He was the brother of my best friend and I've.

Penn Badgley (39:07)

Beth. Beth's brother?

Sam Smith (39:08)

No, another friend called. Called Mabel. My friend called Mabel and she was my best friend and I fell in love with her brother and I would see him all the time.

Penn Badgley (39:22)

Time.

Sam Smith (39:22)

Because I was always around Mabel's house. And I actually became really close to him. It actually got to the point where I wrote him a letter.

Penn Badgley (39:29)

Wow.

Sam Smith (39:30)

Telling him how much I was in love with him. And did you give it to him? And I gave it to him.

Sophie Ansari (39:34)

Wow.

Penn Badgley (39:35)

How old are we talking?

Sam Smith (39:37)

I was probably 14.

Penn Badgley (39:38)

Okay.

Nava Kavlan (39:39)

That's crazy. Gracious. Was he gracious about it?

Sam Smith (39:42)

Incredible. He wrote me a full letter back.

Penn Badgley (39:45)

What?

Sam Smith (39:46)

Yeah. And told me how much he loved me. Oh, I know.

Penn Badgley (39:50)

He's doing great stories.

Sam Smith (39:51)

Isn't it beautiful? And he was. It was such an amazing thing. So like even in those desperately lonely moments, I still. There was still love being experienced. I still felt a little bit worthy.

Penn Badgley (40:03)

That. That feels to me like. It actually warms my heart like to know. And that actually sounds like the evolution of culture in a certain way where it's like you are not describing the typical experience of total isolation, you know, and like suffering in the closet as people have described generations past. You know what I mean?

Sam Smith (40:23)

But also, I don't think people understand their queer history. And I don't think they understand that. Like my generation was really the first that had this opportunity to live so outly. And if that's a word, I think.

Penn Badgley (40:37)

It'S a great word now.

Sam Smith (40:38)

But it's a huge burden to bear as a child because it's all new territory, you know, like, like my parents were so accepting as me coming out. But you know, parents nowadays won't just be happy or accept that their child is out. They'll also go and seek information. They'll go and listen to podcasts, listen to maybe this podcast. They'll go and read some books, watch some queer movies, stuff like that. My parents didn't do that. And so I think it's important now that it's just accepting someone as being out as gay is, is, is, is the first step. But there is a history that, that is important to, to listen to and learn so that you as a parent understand the community that your child's about to walk into. You know, so I think that I had it great, but the history for me in, in the UK when it came to queerness, especially femme queens, is different, you know, just because of the.

Penn Badgley (41:36)

Way you're talking about parenting. I'm curious if you thought about it. Don't have to answer if you don't want to. Have you ever thought about kids?

Sam Smith (41:42)

I want kids immediately.

Penn Badgley (41:43)

Really?

Sam Smith (41:43)

Okay, yeah, I'm ready right now. I'm ready right now. I've always wanted children. I, I, I'm excited. I sometimes hang out with my friend's kids and I have the best time and then like seven hours into it, I'm like, get me out of this. So I'm just like, I'm scared about being tired.

Penn Badgley (42:00)

Well, yeah, trust me, it's is different.

Sam Smith (42:04)

Right?

Penn Badgley (42:04)

Yeah, I mean, it is.

Sam Smith (42:07)

Right?

Sophie Ansari (42:07)

Right.

Penn Badgley (42:08)

Well, I mean, look, as a I have waiting for me when I get home and they're roundabout texting me right now, being like, yeah, what's yeah, when they're yours, you just, you can't. Even though it's hard, you can't imagine life without them. You know, you really, you really, you really can't. It's, it's interesting.

Sam Smith (42:28)

I'm ready for it now. I want kids. And we've got two tortoises, fish and two dogs in the house. Just collecting the animals until you're getting ready.

Penn Badgley (42:41)

Before we officially go into all career things, as much as we have time for another classic question we ask you've actually, I think we've got so many good stories, but we do ask is There. A particularly embarrassing moment, you know, a cringe. A particularly cringe inducing memory from this time.

Sam Smith (43:01)

There is. I don't think I've ever said this either. Maybe I have on my podcast, but your podcast reaches way more people. So this is actually the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me. And then three years ago it became my champion story and now I look at it differently and I'm like, actually, this was the making of me.

Penn Badgley (43:20)

Great.

Sam Smith (43:21)

I, you know, I said I was scared of performing.

Penn Badgley (43:24)

Yeah. Which I still don't understand. And I want to talk about that more.

Sam Smith (43:27)

But yeah, I'm petrified. But this would show you just how. Petrified. Terrified. I'm 11 or 12, I just started secondary school, so it's, it's an intense environment for me with all the boys knowing that I'm gay and all this stuff. I start singing in music class and this teacher just kind of like grabs onto me, is like, you have to perform at this annual evening at the show for the school. It's called Shades of Autumn. It was every autumn and it was. All the kids would be like, kids would go up, you'd be chosen by teachers and you go up and you read a poem. You can play piano or you can sing or you can, you know, just showcase some sort of art. And it was only a select few of kids that would do it. And I said yes. I was so scared that I was sitting waiting to perform form and I was wearing these khaki pants and I was so scared that I pissed myself. I pissed, I pissed myself. It was horrendous. I pissed myself in khaki. So it was just pissed everywhere. And then I was like next in line to go up and perform and I can't believe it. But I, I walked. You went on stage. I stood on stage and I said to the audience that I just spilled water all over myself. So excuse this. And then I st Heroes by Ryah Carey Good for you. Amazing. That was incredible. And then there was a picture of me in the music block covered in piss. For the whole of my time I was in school and no one knew. No one knew except my best friends.

Penn Badgley (45:09)

This is your origin story.

Sam Smith (45:11)

It was. And then so recently when I've been trying to attack my kind of nerves on stage, my therapist is like, look at that moment. Like you still went on stage and did it. You can do this. You have the courage to do this. It's in you. So, yeah, that's my embarrassing story.

Penn Badgley (45:27)

You were always singing and as you said, people would stop and Listen. But when did it go from being like, I'm the one who can sing at my school to, you know, this is a path, this is like, you know, it's hard to say at such an age, like a career, but you know what I mean? Like, when does it become that, that it.

Sam Smith (45:52)

For me, it was like 12.

Penn Badgley (45:53)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (45:54)

So I, I, I, I had, I was always getting parts in shows and stuff from the age of 12. The problem was I was so queer that there was never a part for me in any shows. I was always in the chorus or I'd have like a random solo in shows because I could never be like a lead or a character because they're always straight guys in plays and musicals. So I, I, there was never parts for me in things. But for me, at the age of 12, I was kind of being like, groomed to become a musical theater singer. So at 13, I remember having like panic attacks with my mum about what musical theater schools I'd be auditioning for at 15 years old and all this stuff. And I was working, doing like four or five shows a year after school. Singing lessons, like singing lessons, musical theater, singing lessons, trying to learn instruments, just like, really, really a lot of work. And then when I hit, well, I went to, There's a musical theatre school in London called Sylvia Plaths and they had a school, I think we've had.

Penn Badgley (47:03)

Somebody else who went to.

Sam Smith (47:03)

Not Sylvia Plaths, that's the pilot. No, Sylvia Youngs. Yeah, Musical theatre school that went to on a Saturday. And the singing teacher there basically heard my voice and put me into a recording studio and I, and I started, I basically got a record deal when I was 15 with a record company that they signed me and, well, my mum signed for me because I was A minor and they had artists on their catalog that had written loads of music and they had me singing the music in the studio and it was, it was, it was, it was a situation that was actually in some ways helpful. And, and, and I learned how to be in a recording studio. But it all became really nasty. And to this day, they still sell music of my voice from when I was a kid. You can, it's all on itunes and stuff. And they, they sell things and put things online of me when I was 15, which is really strange.

Nava Kavlan (48:10)

That is strange.

Sam Smith (48:11)

Yeah. But at 15 years old, I basically decided, I had this chat with my mum, I was like, I don't know, do I do musical theater or do I try and be a pop star? At 15 years old, that's Amazing. And me and my mom decided together that I was gonna try and be a pop star. And so I then, from the age of 15, I just. It's all I thought about. And it wasn't necessarily about being a pop star. It was being a singer songwriter. I decided that I didn't want to do musical theater. I wasn't an actor. There wasn't. It wasn't life that I wanted. I love the idea of, you know, gigging and writing songs about my life and traveling around the world and. Yeah. So I decided to do that at 50.

Penn Badgley (49:00)

Did you have. When did the influence of like soul dancehall, like R B really come, really come in to play? Cause I, I feel like that was. I mean, it's there in your first record, but then it of course develops more over. Over the course of your career. And, and, and. And then also like, you know, I'm curious about the interplay between like gospel and R and B and your experience at a Catholic school and the church and the fact that later you would sing and record Gloria like in your childhood church. Is that true? So I'm just wondering about. I'm triangulating around a question. I don't know how to ask, but you know what I mean.

Sam Smith (49:36)

I think something people need to understand about my music is that my music is just as non binary as me. It's not. I'm not one thing. I'm a flow person. I flow and I can't stand still. It's just how I'm built.

Penn Badgley (49:53)

But for instance, the thing that I. It's not that I don't hear it as though it's missing because that's not at all. But like I'm. Because of the way you describe yourself, I'm not surprised. But like I don't hear musical theater in your music. But I mean that in a good way as a person.

Sam Smith (50:09)

I think if you hear my voice on. On some of my first on Latch.

Penn Badgley (50:13)

Okay.

Sam Smith (50:14)

And some of my first on my album. There's still musical theater in there and very pronounced, I guess.

Penn Badgley (50:20)

You know what? That's true. That's true. And I, I should. I have a bias against musical theater because I started a musical theater myself.

Sam Smith (50:25)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (50:26)

And I had to sing. I had to sing. What's the Aladdin song? I can show you the World. Or what's it called?

Sam Smith (50:30)

I had a Whole New World.

Penn Badgley (50:31)

A Whole new World.

Sam Smith (50:32)

That's right. Oh my God.

Penn Badgley (50:32)

I had to sing that so many times. And it just. There's something I probably need to look at with my Therapist.

Sam Smith (50:38)

There's a trigger.

Penn Badgley (50:39)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (50:40)

Yeah. So do I. Yeah, so do I. I struggle with musical theater now, too.

Penn Badgley (50:44)

Right. And so. And so the bias I have is that we've actually had people on who come from musical theater, and they're so. I mean, Ariana's actually one of them. But, you know, to me, you just sound like somebody who knew themselves musically from, like, the jump, at least on your first record and everything after. You know what I mean? So I'm curious.

Sam Smith (51:05)

No matter how much musical theater I did in my teens, the queen of our household, when it came to music, the voice that I remember growing up listening to and was always somehow, there was Aretha Franklin.

Penn Badgley (51:20)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (51:21)

And then it was always Aretha or Shaka Khan or Whitney Houston or Stevie Wonder. Yeah. They were just these. These pillars of voices that my parents were obsessed with. Like, when I first started. Like, I first started doing gigs when I was probably 13 years old, I'd do gigs in pubs and my dad would come with, like, an amplifier and a microphone, and I would sing to these backing tracks that my dad would train me to sing. Singing to backing tracks. Every night after school, he would cook the dinner, and I would stand after school and do, like, an hour to two hours of singing to backing tracks. And my dad would kind of ignore me until I got something right. And then he'd sit and listen. It was quite wild. And what was.

Penn Badgley (52:04)

Was he doing that intentionally? Was he intentionally training you?

Sam Smith (52:07)

Yes. Wow. Yeah. Now I know that he was, and he's now finally let go of it. Now he can come to my shows and he came to my show the other day, and he can now.

Penn Badgley (52:16)

You were flat on the bridge.

Sam Smith (52:18)

He did at the first. The beginning of my career, he would. He would give me this honest feedback. But now he enjoys it. It's fine. But he. Yeah, he would. He really worked my. My voice as a singer. And my dad loves jazz music, so he was. He really was. The first things I was singing was Frank Sinatra songs. And then my mum loved this. The Stevie Wonder song that my mum loved called over the Overjoyed, I think. And so she'd have me sing that the whole time. So. Yeah.

Penn Badgley (52:46)

Is that early, Stevie? Because I know Stevie Wonders from Songs.

Sam Smith (52:49)

In the Key of Life. I think this song. Yeah, yeah. It's overjoyed, maybe. Yeah. Maybe I got it wrong. It's something over.

Sophie Ansari (52:58)

No, I feel like I can hear it in my head.

Sam Smith (53:00)

Yeah.

Sophie Ansari (53:01)

I'm not gonna sing it, but.

Sam Smith (53:02)

But I would be singing those classics, the whole.

Nava Kavlan (53:09)

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Penn Badgley (54:38)

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Nava Kavlan (58:46)

I'm curious about some thematic things. Sorry to keep quoting your podcast, but it's really good. You talked about. I think it was in a conversation with Rebecca Sugar, which also I was like, so delighted that you brought them on. Rebecca's amazing. But you talked about when you were young, your grandma showed you Pete's Dragon and how influential that was, and. And then it kind of blossomed into this love of lighthouses. And then you mentioned a recurring theme in your music, which is calling lovers back to safety, which I thought was so gorgeous. Then I went back and listened to a lot of your music with that in mind, and it's definitely present. So I have two questions. One is if you could just share a little bit more about that, sort of what it means to you to call lovers back to safety in your music thematically. But then also you've shared that you're recently in love for the first time, and I want to know what it feels like for you. What does it mean to have a lover call you back to safety?

Sam Smith (59:36)

That's very sweet. Well, first of all, lighthouses, sirens, all that. My grandma grew up in a place called Whitley Bay in northern England, which is a beautiful coastal town. There's an incredible lighthouse there. So I think. And she also introduced me to Pete's Dragon. And, um, I think that that's where that obsession has come from. Um, it's also just from, as I said, from being in love with so many straight guys and growing up through my teens. And I felt like. I. I don't know, I just felt like, eternally lonely. And there's something about a lighthouse that has that. But it's also so such a warm place of safety too. So I think I related to that so deeply and I still do to this day. It's. There's an amazing song from Pete's Dragon called Candle on the Water, which is the most amazing song. And I wrote a song called Lighthouse Keeper, which is my favorite song I've ever written in my life, which is all kind of about that stuff. So it's really. It's about a longing and it's also. I guess it's about my voice as well. Weirdly. It's like I have this thing that creates. Some people want to listen to it. So I guess it's about trying to. Trying to. Through my life, trying to come to terms with stepping into that power. I hate saying the word gift, but it's like something that I've had to face recently. Like, it's to like what I do and to like my job and to. To. To not feel so scared. I think I have to think about it in that way a little bit more. But I'm. I'm English and we find it hard to like, look at ourselves in that way.

Penn Badgley (61:18)

Such a great point. Yeah. The American mean. So it's funny because my wife is English, but she moved here when she was 12.

Sam Smith (61:26)

Oh, wow.

Penn Badgley (61:26)

So she. She very expressly does not have that.

Sam Smith (61:30)

British kicked out of her.

Penn Badgley (61:31)

Yeah, like. No, she's a very. I mean, I think my co. Host can corroborate. She's like a. She's so not English in that. In that. In that one respect. She. A lot of her family members are.

Sam Smith (61:43)

Did she move here to New York?

Penn Badgley (61:44)

Yeah, when she was.

Sam Smith (61:45)

That will do it. It's like just being in the last year, last half, it's like, wow, it really shakes you up. It's like, it's. But it's great. You start. I'm, you know, it's a skin that I'm. I'm. I'm, you know, all my family from England, so I'm always there still. But it's. I'm enjoying the change. So.

Penn Badgley (62:03)

You strike me though, as somebody who, like in your debut record, you strike me as, you know, which I don't think you find a lot in pop music or, well, music you just. Or ever really, you arrive to me, me to my ear, somewhat fully formed. Now I know that you. Of course that's not true for anybody and I know it's not true for you because there's of course growth that I can hear on the rest of the records. But. But I'm. I guess. I guess I'm curious, you know, what was the experience like of finally making that record? You know, like, you're, you're. You were what, like 19 to 21 or something? And. And I'm just curious. Your final. Finally doing what it might feel like you were born to do. You're also like really afraid of performing or maybe afraid is not the right word. But you know, you have these, these conflicting feelings about performing. So I'm just really interested in that formative time.

Sam Smith (63:02)

It was just so exciting. I want to answer your question, by the way, about Christian at some point, so I'll come back to it. Yeah, but I, but I, that year, that first album was, was. It was just so exciting. That's all I can say is like I was work, I worked, I had jobs as well as doing all the musical theater stuff and everything I worked in, I worked in like a news agent, like a, like a, like a corner store from the age of 15 and then when I, I left school at 17 and I, I immediately started working in a bar in London and so for about four years I was working in the bar. Used to clean the toilets in this bar. It was the worst job in the world. And, and like clean all the glasses and like it was in the city of London, so it was like the financial district of London. So I'd work these horrible hours to like 4am in this bar and so I'd work. I felt like I'd been working non stop since I was like 12, doing school, all these theater performances, recording albums, being signed. I had like six managers by the time I was like 19 and like, and then all these jobs trying to get money and trying to move to London and stuff. So I was, by the time when I got my record deal and like when that all kind of came to fruition, it was just like I was just so desperate to, to, to, to sing for a living and to not have to work so hard. And so I just really ran with it. That whole, that whole album process. I was just, I was being put in sessions with all different writers, like four or five sessions a week with different people. So writing five to six songs a week for a couple of years and, and it was, it was a wild time. It was very orchestrated by the label. It was, it was very, it was a very commercial experience and it, and it had, and it can. That commercial music pop writing experience continued up until right now in my life. It was, I really gave myself to pop music.

Penn Badgley (65:08)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (65:09)

Fully and full heartedly.

Penn Badgley (65:10)

Well and what's so impressive about that too is that I think with like a lesser artist, the forces of commercial pop just, I think they, they, they obviously threatened to sanitize something. They, they, they threaten to bring out the best. I think when you're like the best, best of all art, I think often is when you're being mindful of all of those like the tension between commercial and Critical to oversimplify it. You know what I mean?

Sam Smith (65:33)

It's like.

Penn Badgley (65:33)

Cause you're actually figuring out how to truly make something that is masterful but open and appealing. There's nothing wrong with that when you can do it. Pop music is actually the most incredible music. For instance, I still marvel at some of Michael Jackson's biggest hits. It's like this is weird. Weird. Yeah, it's weird music for sure. You know what I mean?

Sam Smith (65:54)

For sure. It's. But it's so open hearted.

Penn Badgley (65:57)

Yeah, yeah.

Sam Smith (65:58)

It's. You know, Quincy and the whole thing is just incredible. Yeah, incredible.

Penn Badgley (66:03)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (66:05)

He was the greatest of that.

Penn Badgley (66:07)

Definitely. So I'm. I had a question there somewhere. You wait. There was a question that we sort of interrupted of nabos. What was that?

Sophie Ansari (66:14)

Oh yeah, yeah.

Nava Kavlan (66:15)

Tell us.

Sam Smith (66:16)

Oh, just being in love now. Now.

Penn Badgley (66:18)

Oh. Oh, yes. Yes.

Sam Smith (66:21)

Yeah. It is an incredible feeling and I feel like, you know, talk about lighthouses. It is wild to have someone who is that. That home for me now. It's. It's. It's incredible. And I moved to New York to be with him and New York comes with the package of my partner because he, he's. He. Weirdly this is a weird story. So he's lived in New York for 10 years. Years I with similar age. And when I met him, I was here in New York visiting and I met him for a date and he. On the day he told me that he grew up 10 minutes from my house. That I grew up in the countryside of England. Yeah. Wow. Like down the street from me. So that whole time when I was like a lonely gay kid, the lid.

Penn Badgley (67:10)

To your pot was just right down.

Sam Smith (67:11)

The street to my pot was down the street. Isn't that crazy?

Penn Badgley (67:17)

I think we're all supporting characters in your story. That is a great story.

Sam Smith (67:25)

So we have all the same obsessions, experiences.

Penn Badgley (67:29)

Wow.

Sam Smith (67:31)

And yeah. So it's really, really beautiful.

Penn Badgley (67:34)

What makes you said New York is part of the deal with him? If he's British, why is New York such a big part of his life?

Sam Smith (67:40)

Well, he came, he's a fashion designer. He, he's. He, he came here, he started making clothes for Lady Gaga when he was like 22 or 23. Straight out of fashion school. Wow. In the UK. It's incredible. And he moved here and started his brand when he was like 23 and he's lived here ever since. And he's, he's so deeply inspired by New York and his fashion is, is all about New York and so he just love. He thrives and in the madness and the chaos of this city. And so I've got to experience New York through his eyes, which has been absolutely incredible. I still need to get out. Every two weeks. I run for the hills.

Penn Badgley (68:19)

Totally. Yeah.

Sam Smith (68:21)

And go upstate. Cause I just. Sometimes I need to, like, hug a tree.

Penn Badgley (68:24)

No, it's different. It's definitely true. I was actually. My mom visits somewhat regularly now, coming from upstate, where we own a home. And she brings our car down and then drives back out. And the other night I was helping. I was loading her bags into our car. Into my car, which she was going to drive out. And I just had this feeling like, oh, my God, I wish I was like. I just had this sense memory of being like, I could be getting in this car and driving out of the city, which you just. If. When you. Once you have that ability.

Sam Smith (68:52)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (68:53)

You're like, oh, my God, it's so much here. Yeah, it's so. It's like you can't live without it. And. And. And it is hard to live.

Sam Smith (69:02)

It's a lot for your nervous system.

Penn Badgley (69:03)

It is.

Sam Smith (69:04)

Sure. The key is to New York for me. What? Baths.

Penn Badgley (69:08)

Wait, like a bath at home.

Sam Smith (69:09)

A bath if you can soak your body. I think that your body gets so tense from the noise and the literal noise. Yeah. So you're like. You're heightened. And so I think if you can have. I sometimes have two baths a day. If I can. If I can get one in the afternoon or in the morning. And then at nighttime. Definitely at nighttime. Have a bath if you have one. Or even just. Just hot showers, great. But just, like, calming the body down physically, it has to become part of your ritual in New York.

Penn Badgley (69:38)

No, you know, you're right. You're right.

Sophie Ansari (69:40)

I had a question for you about water because I played your song to be Free for my husband last night. We were both dying over it. My husband's a musician. He's played music all his life. Drums and piano mostly. And he was like, this is the best song I've heard in a long, long time. He loved it. And there's a line in it. I mean, the whole thing is very moving. But there's a line where you say, to be free like the river. And it made me think. I think I feel freest in the water. And then also the water also has some memories for me that are the exact opposite. When I think about, like, swimming when I was a kid. Like, you talked about feeling, like, insecure about your body. Body. But generally the overall sense is like, a sense of freedom. And I was curious if you had any memories or moments to do with water that are connected to that for you.

Sam Smith (70:35)

First of all, I want to say that that question is my favorite question I think I've ever been asked. I mean it. I'm not just saying that because like that I could talk about this all day. I am obsessed with water in many ways. I grew up near a river in England. There's a little river on the street that I was born in, born on. So I was always by rivers. But I, People don't know this about me. I am an incredible underwater swimmer. Really? Yeah. I'm like, I'm like a seal.

Penn Badgley (71:03)

Can you, can you hold your breath for a long time?

Sam Smith (71:05)

I can hold my breath for a long time because I sing, but I can weave and like swim incredibly underwater.

Sophie Ansari (71:10)

Amazing.

Penn Badgley (71:11)

Do you like to do that in. In natural bodies?

Sam Smith (71:14)

Favorite thing to do is wild swim.

Penn Badgley (71:16)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (71:16)

I actually have to say I travel around the world touring.

Penn Badgley (71:18)

Really?

Sam Smith (71:19)

And I jump into wild water everywhere I go.

Penn Badgley (71:21)

Oh man.

Sam Smith (71:21)

From like Norway to freezing and then like all in the Caribbean, like in Australia, like, I, I seek out wild water swimming.

Sophie Ansari (71:30)

That's the best.

Sam Smith (71:31)

And I'm good in cold water. I can stay in cold water. I am, I'm, I'm like.

Penn Badgley (71:35)

You're a mythical creature.

Sam Smith (71:36)

I'm a, I'm a Celtic soul.

Penn Badgley (71:39)

Actually, when you were describing the lighthouse earlier, there was a gorgeous children's film by a cartoon saloon who, like, they make a, they, they, they, they win like Academy Awards. Now they, they make like really incredible children's films. But it's an Irish production company. And the first one I think is called Song of the Sea. And it's like a lighthouse essential to it. And it's like. And it's a selkie. It's, it's beautiful. I just. So the first time I saw it was with my now 16 year old, but when he was 6, we watched it and now that we have a 5 year old, we, we just watched it with him for the first time and it's like really moving.

Sam Smith (72:15)

Yeah.

Penn Badgley (72:16)

And there's something about that. So you.

Sam Smith (72:19)

But water is everything.

Penn Badgley (72:21)

Do you. I wonder if. Because I, I have had. I think there's a real difference between scuba diving, which I don't know if you've done, or like this, that free swimming that you're talking about. Do you, do you have a preference?

Sam Smith (72:35)

Free swimming for me, but for me water has become not something that I just, just physically love. It's become a. I. So I, I was like Diagnosed with, When I had my, this panic attack right in South Africa on stage, it was the first time I was ever not able to do my job because of my anxiety. So I had to go back home and I had to have therapy and figure out how to overcome this. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to sing on stage again. And so I got diagnosed in the UK through therapy with ocd, had started on medications to help me with that and all of that stuff for, I'd say three, four years. And, and I never got past it. I just felt like I was living with an illness and I was. And, and the, and I never could, I wasn't mastering it. And so then I tried a different route of therapy with a different therapist and I stopped all my medications and I basically started to describe myself instead of saying I have ocd. And by the way, this is like anyone who maybe listened to this, who has ocd, ignore me because you have to like, sure, we all have our own brains and chemistry and we all have to do our own thing, so you have to seek that out. But I, for me, I came off my medications and instead of saying I had ocd, I've started to describe myself as a flow person that I am very much like water in, in terms of my, my gender expression, my music tastes, the way that my body fluctuates. My mental health is just like water. My mental health is always moving up and down. So now when I'm feeling anxious and if I'm getting a wave of anxiety or panic attacks and things like that, I think think of it all as weather, things that will just, I love that flow past you at some point and, and as long as, you know, you hold on to things, you know, and just, and don't resist too much and move with the weather and let, and let it come through you. So water has become this symbol that is so, it's so linked to my body and even in the way I dress, you know, like, I'm not a happy person if my wardrobe just happens. Has one type of thing I need. Some days I want to wear a beautiful long skirt. Some days I want to just wear a T shirt and some, some, you know, some jeans. And I, I, I need, I've lent into this flow water state into every single element of my life. And it's made me an incredibly happy person as someone who can finally manage my, my mental health and my issues. So water is just the act of flow in life and letting go and allowing yourself to change and grow. It's such A powerful thing if you can master it.

Sophie Ansari (75:26)

It's really beautiful.

Penn Badgley (75:28)

Can we talk a bit about your growth from record to record? I want to respect your time. So we won't go into the nitty gritties, but I guess you really know how to open and close a record. I think. I think I've noticed. And you kind of arrive on the scene doing that from your first. You know, you have, you have. I really love Money on My Mind.

Sam Smith (75:50)

Okay, okay, so. No, no, no.

Penn Badgley (75:52)

I have a feeling. I have a feeling you would. So I did. So just shout out to Ariana. I kind of did this with her and. Shut up. She was like, why are you bringing Shut up? And it's like, I heard something that probably. I would bet your fans have a real soft spot in their hearts for it.

Sam Smith (76:10)

And that's why I'll never diss my music. Cause, like, it's like looking back at bad outfits. But I don't think I've ever mastered an album. By the way, when you say I open and close an album, I love my records. I think they're great collectives of songs of the times. And for the things that I was trying to achieve when it came to pop music and being a queer voice in pop music, it felt exciting for the albums I've made. But I don't think I've mastered right actually until I've made a record now. And it's the first time that I actually think I've mastered a proper, like, cohesive body.

Penn Badgley (76:46)

Are you talking about Gloria? Are you talking about nothing else record I've.

Sam Smith (76:49)

I've just. I've made now? And it's. It's like up until that point, my albums that, you know, yeah, they. I love those records, but they are. They're. That I've had to. For me to make what I've just made. I've had to look at everything and start and. And better.

Penn Badgley (77:08)

Yeah. Well, going back to what you were saying before about the, like, how up until now you were in this incredibly pop commercial sort of apparatus. Right. And what I was remarking on and really do still feel like. I just want to reiterate. I understand why you. I can understand why you would feel that way about your songs and in particular the one I mentioned, but I actually think that you have so much capacity that it's amazing that that song is good. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's really good because you are taking the pop forces and you're doing something. Like. I just think it's really impressive I just think it's because you're saying something incredibly authentic. Because you're saying, by the way, for anybody who hasn't heard it, the whole point is that money is not on your mind. But you've called it money on my. And anyway, I just think it's an. I think it's a really infectious hook. And just that, like, the swerve you have on it, because it's the same swerve you have in Unholy too. It's the same, like. It's the same. Like there's this thing you do with your voice that you don't do on all of your songs. It's like this kind of. Like, it's clever, it's cheeky, it's like, it's. I guess what I'm saying is, like, to me, only the greats really rise above the forces of pop music. Because pop music otherwise, because it's got so much money behind it, it will anesthetize, and it can still be great. There's so many good pop artists. But I think ultimately, it's hard to write. It's hard to be yourself. And that's what I feel like. I see you on a journey towards being able to do, which only the greats can do. Only the greats can be themselves in pop music, you know? And this is a person who, like pop is. I listen to the greats. I don't really listen to a lot of other pop music. You know what I mean? That's just my.

Sam Smith (78:58)

I think that for people. The one thing that I think people are misunderstood about my music, and I don't read criti critics anymore or any. Anything about my music because it's unhealthy. But the. The thing that is misunderstood is to understand the type of music I make, you have to understand the context, and you have to understand the nuances. And you. You have to understand that. I like what I was telling you about my childhood, about being a young queer kid and the voices and the things that I listen to. You have to understand that to understand my music. My music has always been compared to a straight person's exposure to pop music, which is very different to a young queer person's exposure to pop music. So what people may find cheesy about my music, what people may find simplistic about my music, actually, if you look at it in a different lens, could actually be taken as quite radical. It's like me leaning into those pop things. And you have to understand where I would go out drinking at 23. You know, I didn't have this luxury of, like, going to these cool bars. Listen to Radiohead. It didn't happen for me. Like, it wasn't like that for me. I totally know you need to meet men. And to have gay experience, I had to go to gay bars which had sticky floors. A lot of them had awful drinks and they were playing, like, intense pop music that wasn't. Wouldn't be classed as, like, great music to many critics, you know. And so I. I believe that my music is radically centric.

Penn Badgley (80:42)

That's interesting. Yeah.

Sam Smith (80:43)

And I enjoy that about what I do. I think it's important actually, for me to. To be. That's me being authentic. I'm. To make a buck off you. When I'm writing this music, I'm not sitting there trying to think of what's commercially gonna turn people on. This is what I like. That is what I listen to. But I also, at the same time, do now listen to beautiful quality music and amazing albums. And I'm trying to deepen my sound, but I think it will never be enough for a certain audience, honestly. And this whole record I've been making recently is. I've made it with five people in a room. I've produced it myself with them. I've pushed everything as credibly as I can. To be free is the beginnings of that. The music I've made now, I've pushed so deeply. And even after doing that and even sitting here with what I believe is my best body of work, it's only gonna be truly understood when you take time to understand me and where I actually come from. And don't compare me me to stray artists and to artists that have had different life experiences and exposures to music than I have. And that's. That's what I ask of people, you know, if they have the time for that.

Penn Badgley (82:01)

For that reason. Is the song him any kind of marker in your life?

Sam Smith (82:06)

That was a huge. That was a beautiful moment for me, that song. It was, you know, my first album. I didn't. I. I said he on the album a few times.

Penn Badgley (82:13)

But it is ambiguous.

Sam Smith (82:15)

It was ambiguous, but it was meant to be ambiguous. You know, I came out such a young age that there was this whole media thing. When I first brought my first album, that was trying to hide my sexuality, and it just. It wasn't true. I wasn't. I was. I was trying to appeal to a wide audience because, you know, why is it that when I'm a kid, I listen to Stevie Wonder singing songs about women and listen to all these female artists singing about straight heterosexual relationships. And I can relate to them. But still to this day, when someone knows something is gay, they find it hard to relate to. They think it's not about them. And so that first album was my first chance to get my voice heard in the world. So it was important for me to reach everyone and make sure that everyone, especially the women in my life, could relate to that music. So I made sure that there was a neutralness to that first album. But then after getting stick for it, I was like, I have no problem saying him. I wrote the song him and. And I love that song. And yeah. And now the album I've just written, obviously is mainly, you know, been so inspired by my relationship right now. And it's, you know, five albums in. Finally I can actually sing love songs from a real place and from. From reciprocated place, which is beautiful.

Penn Badgley (83:31)

I wish we could talk to you about it, having heard it, but.

Nava Kavlan (83:34)

Yeah, well, Sam, let's residency. So your res is called to be Free. It's in Brooklyn. It's in these like intimate spaces. Sort of tell us about the thinking about that and then anything you do want to share about your album, we are receptive.

Sam Smith (83:47)

Well, the residencies at these. After all these years of performing in these big rooms, I. It was always incredible. And when I had that panic moment in South Africa when I was 26, I then, you know, made my. Made sure I worked back up to arena and then I did the whole of my Gloria tour last year, which was incredible. Also exhausting. Like getting into a thong every night and singing in a thong every night when you're tired and fat and shattered.

Penn Badgley (84:23)

And still terrified of performing and still.

Sam Smith (84:27)

You don't realize how hard it is. Like, I had my best friend come on tour with me last time to basically just push me on stage. Once I got through the last tour, which. Which I. Which was actually really powerful, I felt like my last tour, my last album, was really about autonomy. It was about putting a hand in front of myself and saying, I am going to do what I want to do in my life. And that's what comes first. And so I really felt like I regained some strength from that tour. And after the tour I just. I just missed that. Like those first gigs when I was 22, when I first came to America, where these rooms that were built for music and I got to just really look at the audience's eyes. And that is where I like connection and fire and magic is created for me as a musician, is in is in those rooms that are built for music where people, they come and they arrive and they're there to listen and to experience something in an intimate space. So I just wanted to get back to that. And I had no idea that these shows would do what they've done. The last two weeks have just passed. Insane. I haven't. My first time I performed in those rooms. There wasn't a lot of queer people in those spaces actually when I was 20 years old. And then over the years in the arenas, my audience got bigger. So I've kind of. I lost perspective of who was coming to my shows. And now I'm doing these shows in New York and I'm looking at the crowd and it's just so diverse. There's just so many different people who are there and who feel connected to me and want to hear me. And it's just making me fall in love. In love with my. My work again.

Penn Badgley (86:03)

That's beautiful.

Sam Smith (86:03)

And I'm just so happy that we've done it. Yeah. So that's great. And the new music that I've been making is just. It's just been the best. Just me, five, six friends all just singing and they're all smacking wood in a studio and.

Sophie Ansari (86:18)

Amazing.

Sam Smith (86:19)

It's the whole album, you know, there's no auto tune. There's. There's. There's minimal electric, like electronic music. There's a few drum machines that we've used, but actually in the room.

Penn Badgley (86:33)

And that's cool.

Sam Smith (86:33)

And, And. And creating these things together from a really organic space. And it's been wild.

Penn Badgley (86:38)

Can I ask where you've been recording?

Sam Smith (86:40)

I've been recording in Brooklyn.

Penn Badgley (86:42)

Okay.

Sam Smith (86:42)

Yeah. In this. In Prospect Heights.

Penn Badgley (86:46)

Yeah.

Sam Smith (86:47)

And. Yeah. Amazing little studio.

Nava Kavlan (86:49)

Can't wait to hear it.

Penn Badgley (86:50)

I know that. I know the guy who.

Sam Smith (86:52)

Shahzad. Shahzad? Yeah. You know Shazad. Everyone knows Shazad. I love it. He's actually been on. Producing, not like on the record. Playing on the record, writing on the record with me.

Penn Badgley (87:02)

That's amazing. He is a gift. This. This is somebody who walks around in. In. In.

Sam Smith (87:08)

In.

Penn Badgley (87:09)

In like incredible dress and will play. He walks around with like a nylon string classical guitar and will just sort of play in a way that makes sense for the moment. And I remember we like were walking, getting coffee one day. I don't know him well, but I know people who know him well. And I feel like.

Sam Smith (87:26)

And I.

Penn Badgley (87:27)

And I've just remembered as you were saying that, that.

Sam Smith (87:29)

Yeah. Anyway, he's amazing. Incredible, mystical, magical person he's the wizard of Brooklyn. Yeah.

Penn Badgley (87:34)

Yeah, that's exactly what he, the wizard of prospect. That's exactly what he feels like. Well, Sam, it's been such a joy to have you on.

Sam Smith (87:42)

Thank you.

Penn Badgley (87:43)

We do close with one final question. If you could go back to 12 year old Sam, what would you say or do, if anything?

Sam Smith (87:51)

Oh, what would I say? I would, I would. I, I think I just, I would just give them the biggest hug in the world. I really would just give like, I just needed a hug. Like my, I got great hugs at home, but I just need, I need, needed a big old hug as a kid because it was exhausting. I just had my fists up the whole time. So.

Penn Badgley (88:23)

You know what, that's actually when you say that, it's sweet because like my newborns, when they're nursing, they just like, they don't know what's going on a lot of times. But so when they're, when they're having. And because they're twins, they like are never getting their needs met at all times, unlike a lot of newborns. So when they're like, when they're nursing, they just kind of have their fists up like this. They're just kind of like.

Sophie Ansari (88:43)

A little fighter.

Sam Smith (88:44)

Yeah, definitely. And also I just, I would just, I would just say that there's some people that will never change and there's some things you can't control. You know, I think that's what something was so confusing as, as being out so young is that just didn't understand why people could, didn't like me or, or that that was something that was definitely going to change, that people were going to come around and I, I took it upon myself a lot of the time to try and break people's homophobia. I think a lot of the time as a kid and I think that I became a perfectionist in that sense of just wanting everyone to like me. So I would say, just, I would say to, to not to try and stay away from perfection like that.

Nava Kavlan (89:31)

Sam Smith is so wonderful to meet you.

Sam Smith (89:33)

Thank you. It's lovely to meet you too.

Nava Kavlan (89:35)

Such an honor.

Sam Smith (89:35)

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Sophie Ansari (89:38)

You can check out Sam Smith's new residency to be Free in Brooklyn at Warsaw from October through Dec. And you can follow Sam Smith online at samsmith. Podcrust is hosted by Penn Badgley, Nava Kavlan and Sophie Ansari. Our senior producer is David Ansari and our editing is done by Clips Agency. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the time we talked to Luca Bravo about the profound effect that the film into the Wild had on him. The conversation was so moving and you are not going to hear it anywhere else. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadepremium.com to subscribe on any other app that's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. And as always you can listen to podcrust ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Okay, that's all bye.

Sam Smith (90:42)

Story Pirates is the number one podcast for kids and families in the world and the newest addition to the Lemonada Media Network. We take stories written by real kids and turn them into sketch comedy and songs featuring professional actors, famous guests and original music. So get ready to light up your kids imaginations with a short show that you'll also enjoy. The Story Pirates Podcast new season coming November 6th.