Episode 136: Brad Birzer / Yes [Part 2]

Summary

Podcast Summary: Political Beats – Episode 136: Brad Birzer / Yes [Part 2]

Release Date: July 1, 2024

Hosts: Scott Bertram and Jeff Blair
Guest: Brad Birzer, alongside Christian Schneider

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Introduction

In Episode 136 of Political Beats, hosts Scott Bertram and Jeff Blair engage in an in-depth conversation with Brad Birzer, the Russell Amos Kirk Chair in American Studies at Hillsdale College, and Christian Schneider. The episode delves into the progressive rock band Yes, exploring their musical evolution from the mid-1970s through the early 1990s.

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Relayer: A Jazz-Infused Turn

Timestamp: [04:18] – [10:32]

Brad Birzer initiates the discussion by examining Yes's 1974 album, Relayer. Following the ambitious Tales of Topographic Oceans, the band sought to rejuvenate their sound amidst declining morale and creative challenges.

• Tour Struggles and Lineup Changes: "Rick Wakeman... really reaches his limit playing this thing every single night" ([05:46]) leads to his departure and the introduction of Patrick Moraz, a Swiss keyboardist whose jazzier approach significantly influenced the album's direction.

• Musical Analysis: Birzer praises Relayer's complexity, highlighting tracks like "Soundchaser" as "the single most impressive piece of avant-garde composition that Yes ever did" ([05:46]). Despite its lack of mainstream singles, the album is lauded for its artistic ambition and Roger Dean's evocative artwork.

Jeff Blair adds his perspective, noting the album's technical prowess but acknowledges its lesser melodic appeal compared to earlier works: "It's likely... the least melodic thing that they've done" ([10:50]).

Christian Schneider echoes admiration for Relayer, emphasizing its organic flow and the seamless integration of jazz elements: "I absolutely love Gates of Delirium. I love every part of it" ([21:59]).

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Going for the One: A Near Masterpiece

Timestamp: [34:03] – [42:05]

Transitioning to Going for the One (1977), Birzer describes it as a near masterpiece for Yes, bridging the gap between the experimental Relayer and more accessible sounds.

• Musical Highlights: The album features a blend of intricate compositions and radio-friendly singles. Birzer highlights "Wondrous Stories" as "a wonderful song that encouraged Rick Wakeman to rejoin the band" ([37:41]).

• Production and Collaboration: The return of Rick Wakeman is credited with enriching the album's sonic landscape. Birzer admires the fusion of Wakeman's church organ with Chris Squire's bass lines, creating a "pumping bass from Squire underneath fusing with a church organ" ([34:03]).

Notable Quotes:

• Birzer on the album's humor and lyricism: "As I said, this is the time when I realized Yes has a sense of humor" ([34:03]).
• Jeff Blair underscores the album's standout tracks: "Parallels is one of the best, best songs of this Yes era" ([40:11]).

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Drama: The Fusion Experiment and Fallout

Timestamp: [42:05] – [69:03]

Drama (1980) marks a significant shift for Yes, featuring a new lineup with Trevor Horn and Trevor Rabin after John Anderson and Patrick Moraz's departures.

• Album Overview: The duo of Horn (vocals) and Rabin (guitar) aimed to blend progressive rock with new wave influences, resulting in a bold, albeit controversial, musical direction.

• Critical Reception: Initially panned for its departure from classic Yes sounds and Trevor Horn's distinctive vocals, Drama has undergone a retrospective reassessment. Birzer passionately defends the album as "one of the two greatest Yes albums ever made" ([65:51]).

• Touring Challenges: The accompanying tour was fraught with difficulties, including vocal mismatches and internal tensions, leading to the band's temporary collapse.

Notable Quotes:

• Birzer on Drama's production: "It is a brilliant fusion. It is exactly what it was intended to be" ([65:51]).
• Schneider praises the album's lyrical depth and vocal arrangements: "The contrast between Anderson's voice and the choruses is really innovative" ([72:55]).

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90125: The 80s Revival and Mainstream Success

Timestamp: [69:03] – [101:42]

90125 (1983) revitalizes Yes by reuniting the core members with Trevor Rabin, steering the band towards a more polished, radio-friendly sound without abandoning their progressive roots.

• Production Excellence: Under Trevor Horn's production, the album achieves a focused and concise sound. Jeff Blair lauds the meticulous arrangement of "Owner of a Lonely Heart," citing its "number one song" status as a testament to the album's craftsmanship ([99:07]).

• Musical Evolution: Blaire emphasizes the seamless integration of Rabin's songwriting with classic Yes elements, creating hits like "It Can Happen" and "Hold On," which blend memorable hooks with sophisticated arrangements.

• Legacy: 90125 is celebrated for its ability to balance commercial appeal with artistic integrity, producing enduring hits while maintaining the band's identity.

Notable Quotes:

• Jeff Blair on the album's standout tracks: "It's such a wonderful piece of arrangement and production" ([100:17]).
• Brad Birzer on "Owner of a Lonely Heart": "It's a brilliant line read by Anderson. It's almost a mystery how something like that could chart" ([102:58]).

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Big Generator and Union: Decline and Fragmentation

Timestamp: [101:42] – [162:03]

Post-90125, Yes encountered creative and interpersonal challenges with albums like Big Generator (1987) and Union (1991).

• Big Generator: Criticized for its overproduction and departure from the cohesive sound of 90125, the album struggled to capture the same level of success. Hosts express frustration over its generic approach and perceived lack of innovation.

  • Quotes:
    • Jeff Blair: "It's so overproduced. Nothing lands. It sounds like it could have been produced by any band in Los Angeles" ([117:56]).
    • Brad Birzer: "It is [Big Generator] a truly bad album" ([123:35]).

• Union: A forced amalgamation of multiple Yes lineups, Union is regarded as a chaotic project that failed to resonate with fans or critics alike. The collaboration between Trevor Rabin and former members led to a disjointed and unremarkable release.

  • Quotes:
    • Jeff Blair: "It's a mess. The production doesn't help anything at all" ([129:11]).
    • Brad Birzer: "It's like they took two bad flavors and combined them in the hopes of making ice cream" ([125:25]).

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Later Years and Legacy

Timestamp: [162:03] – [end]

The podcast concludes by reflecting on Yes's later works and their enduring legacy. The hosts and guest acknowledge the band's significant influence on progressive rock despite the fluctuating quality of their later albums. They emphasize the importance of core members like Chris Squire and Alan White in maintaining the band's identity amid numerous lineup changes.

Recommendations:

• Brad Birzer: Recommends Drama and 90125 as essential listens within this era, highlighting tracks like "Soundchaser," "Onward," and the revitalized "Owner of a Lonely Heart."
• Christian Schneider: Suggests focusing on standout tracks such as "Gates of Delirium," "Silent Wings of Freedom," and "Machine Messiah," as well as appreciating the ambitious Fly From Here in its reissued form.

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Conclusion

Episode 136 of Political Beats offers a comprehensive exploration of Yes's tumultuous journey through the 1970s to the early 1990s. With insightful analysis from Brad Birzer and Christian Schneider, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the band's creative peaks and valleys. The episode underscores the enduring appeal of Yes's music, advocating for a reassessment of albums like Drama and 90125 while critically examining the missteps of Big Generator and Union.

Notable Quotes:

• Brad Birzer on Drama's importance: "I adore it. I think it is a masterpiece" ([65:51]).
• Jeff Blair on 90125's craftsmanship: "It's just a wonderful piece of arrangement and production" ([100:17]).
• Christian Schneider on Relayer: "I absolutely love Gates of Delirium. I love every part of it" ([21:59]).

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For more insightful discussions on the intersection of politics and music, subscribe to Political Beats on Apple Podcasts or visit National Review's podcast page. Support the show via Patreon to access exclusive content and help keep the program ad-free.

Transcript

[Scott Bertram]

Foreign.

[Jeff Blair]

Hello again everybody and welcome into another edition of Political Beats, a presentation of National Review. Find us on X at Political Underscore Beats. We're also over on Facebook. Subscribe to our feed for new episodes. Get them through Apple podcasts or elsewhere. [e-mail] Click the Podcast tab. You'll find all the fine NR audio, including links to past episodes of Political Beats. And of course, we direct you over to our Patreon page. We enjoy your [e-mail] politicalbeats support us there. Help the show stay ad free as it has been. There's entry level for your your your support and some voting privileges along the way. Mid level, you get early access to all our shows and the episodes at a higher audio quality and our upper level early access, higher audio quality. Monthly exclusive content shows, remastered episodes, playlists and more. All of [e-mail] politicalbeats now the part of the program where we thank some of our Patreon supporters, specifically and individually for helping us out. Our new Patreon supporters, Thomas Heller and Gregory Martin and and some of our longtime supporters, including Chris Enlow, Steve Ritchie, Will Devaney, Zachary Gallon, Edwin, Dave Shuford, Daniel Schwenke, Ron Schiffman, Devin Rosler, Thaxin Bishop and Jonathan Williams. Thanks to all of you out there Supporting [e-mail] PoliticalBeats My name is Scott Bertram. Find me on X at Scott Bertram, my tag team partner standing by as always, Jeff Blair. Jeff, how are you?

[Brad Birzer]

Not good, Scott. I gotta say. Feeling pretty joyless recently. The magic just seems to have gone out of Political Beats. We're not putting out the same quality product that we used to. So listen, you know what? I think I'm done. I think I'm gonna quit. And you know, you can just get Christian Schneider to take my place.

[Jeff Blair]

Christian Schneider and his friend. Maybe we'll bring two people in to replace you. Find Jeff on sotiriccd. Joining us once again is Brad Birzer. He's the Russell Amos Kirk Chair in American Studies at Hillsdale College, the lyricist for the progressive rock band the Bardock Deaths. Also the author of a biography of Rush drummer Neil Peart, Cultural Repercussions. Find it at Amazon and elsewhere. And the author of other numerous books including In Defense of Andrew Jackson Russell, American Conservative and many more. And big yes fan, big prog rock fan, Brad Birzer. Thanks again for jumping back on with us.

[Christian Schneider]

Oh, you're very welcome. And I actually still feel the magic, so I'm very excited about this. Stick around. And I love talking with you guys, so thanks for having me.

[Brad Birzer]

Yeah, it's amazing we can get you for, like, more than one episode in a row, because usually you just cycle in and out.

[Christian Schneider]

Right. Anytime you guys want, I'm here.

[Jeff Blair]

This is part two of the Political Beats. Look at the band. Yes, Part one. If you didn't hear it, what's wrong with you? Go listen now, come back. But part one covers the origins of yes all the way through the big, overstuffed, sweeping double LP tales of topographic oceans, released in December of 1973. That's where we left off last time, and we've got a lot of content to discuss this time, beginning with what happens after Tales of Topographic Oceans, which, as we talked about last time, Jeff sold well, relatively well in the us yes moves units here in the country, but didn't spin off a single. And, you know, in retrospect. In retrospect has some harsh evaluations in many corners. So where does yes go? Where does the band go coming off an album, a strange album like Tales of Topographic Oceans?

[Brad Birzer]

Want me to set it up? I'd be happy to. So, like, this thing comes out in December 73. They immediately start touring it, like, throughout the United States. And I think they did. They do a year, a British tour as well. And Rick Wakeman, who did not like recording the album in the first place, really just reaches his limit playing this thing every single night. And the band knows that it isn't quite working, too. So they start off trying to play the whole record, and by the end of the tour, they've cut out everything except the Revealing Science of God and Ritual first and the last songs, which, of course are the ones that have always stuck around. And they understood it wasn't quite making it as a stage presentation. Wakeman said, listen, I'm done. I'm gone. And he was already doing disrespectful stuff. He would, notoriously. He would like, you know, have the roadies, like, bring him curries while he was in the middle of the show just to eat his dinner while the rest of them were noodling around on guitar and whatnot. So he left and they got her keyboard replacement. They knew they had to do something. I think it's obvious they felt that they'd slipped because something here had gone astray. And so they rushed to get a new album out and they had to get a new keyboardist. And the guy they found is a really interesting guy who will only stick around for this one record. His name is Patrick Moraz. He's, I think from an obscure group called Refugee. I believe he's Swiss originally. He's a Swiss keyboardist and his style is very different than Rick Wakeman's. Of course, these people are both technical, they have incredible flash.

[Jeff Blair]

But.

[Brad Birzer]

But what Moraz brings is a much jazzier approach. And it shows up all over 1974's relay. This, in a very weird way, is. I'd say them. I wouldn't say it's a forgotten yes album. The fans really love it. Right. But like it again, spawn no singles. It's a Close to the Edge format. They retreat back to the format of Close to the Edge, where it's one side long song and then two other ones on side B. And this is one of the most successful things they've ever done. And its obscurity to me, relative to its greatness is puzzling because there are songs here like Soundchaser, I consider to be maybe the single most impressive piece of avant garde composition that yes ever did, and one that really compares in my mind to something like Lark's Tongues in Aspect Part one from King Crimson, which to me is like the most successful avant garde instrumental composition in rock. This is a great record and I just wanted to hear what, you know. Brad, I guess we'll start with you. What are your thoughts on the Gates of Delirium? Or would you just rather this to be over.

[Scott Bertram]

Standing Fight? We do consider they Mind it all and In a Pack Between Us and Seen As We Go and Right There In Motion.

[Christian Schneider]

I. I actually love the whole album. I. I think it's great that they went back to the class Close to the Edge format. The style there with the great one song on one side, two songs on the. I agree with you, Jeff. I think that Soundchaser is one of the most interesting things they ever did. It is progressive jazz at its best. I'm not even sure it's in the rock territory, but maybe it is. But it has much more of a jazz feel to it. I love what they're doing with that. I love the fact that later on, Squire and White incorporate soundchaser into their own Whitefish. And what they did in the 80s, I think there's some great stuff with that. The fact that John Anderson keeps singing soon as a. A solo piece for him in the concerts in the 80s, I think is great. And I also would say, I mean, there are a lot of things to say about this album, but it's some of Roger Dean's best artwork. The COVID is just fantastic with the White Knights coming into some kind of realm. It's got an organic castle to it. There's a snake off to the side. I just. I think it's a beautiful illustration. And I'm sorry, especially, and we may talk about this, but I think the next two albums going for the One Tomato have just terrible covers. So this is great that we've got the classic Roger Dean cover for. For this. But, yeah, I think Relayer is just an excellent CD that.

[Brad Birzer]

And then I want to break down some of these songs. But, Scott, what's your first impression of this record? Because I sort of banked it. I was like, this one's going to be hard for you to wrap your arms around, just because the Gates of Delirium as a song, which is, of course, that sidelong one that opens the record, is a very weird piece. So what were your thoughts?

[Jeff Blair]

Approached the second part of yes the same way I approached the first part of yes, which was Listen, Listen and then listen some more. Again, a lot of times when I'm getting set to do a band, especially when I don't know, a lot of research. I mean, I'd like to read about the band. I like to read about the, you know, how the songs came together, the albums. And I did some of that. I know the outlines of these albums, but I really focused on listening, listening, listening. And I said in part one, one of the great things about discovering all of this yes music is outside of Tales of Topographic Oceans. It is all very. I don't want to say accessible. That makes it sound a little too mainstream. But if you listen, you will find so many great things right in front of your face. It's really great music, and Relayer is not. And you're right in that I had a very difficult time. I wouldn't say difficult time. I listened to Real Air as much as I did any other album in this stretch, and I still find myself unable to fully embrace the music on the record. It's likely, again, outside of Tales up to this point, I think it's the least melodic thing that they've done. Atonal at times, difficult to sort of understand the changes inside some of these longer songs. Soundchaser, as Jeff is going to tell us in a second, is a whole bunch of just making you uncomfortable. Everything is moving, everything is changing. So of this stretch, the next, what, three, four, five albums? It's my least favorite, which is not to say it's bad. I don't think one of the great discoveries, going through all this yes discography is nothing. None of this is bad. It's all a pleasure to listen to. But I like Relayer the least of this next stretch of albums. There are portions on Real Air that I like. Of course there are. The middle of Gates of Delirium would be, I think, just before the battle begins. Around the eight minute mark, you've got pounding out the Devil's Sermon part. The Fist Will Run. That's a great part of that song. The end, which Brad mentioned that Anderson does in his solo stuff soon is a wonderful part in Soundchaser. There's so many different ideas moving around, but around six and a half minutes in, they get this very heavy swing. It's a Zeppelin sound. It sounds like Paige and Zeppelin. That's a wonderful part of Soundchaser. And then To Be over by the time you get to the end, the last two minutes of. Of To Be over is just really nice, really special. That's one where if you stick with it for a little bit, you do get this very nice reward at the end of To Be Over. But for me, it's a lot of jarring rhythms. Weird. Like, Soundchaser has this weird funkish vibe to it. It's hard for me to put all these pieces together in a way that makes me want to come back and listen to it again and again. There are portions of all these songs. I just mentioned a portion of each of these songs that I really like. But the way that they all come together didn't quite sell it for me.

[Scott Bertram]

To be over we will see to be over do not suffer through the game of chance that blaze it's totally.

[Brad Birzer]

Understandable, Scott, because this is the album that took me the longest time to understand myself. I mean, when I first got it, I didn't dislike it. It just sort of just washed over. And one of the reasons for that is the Gates of Delirium itself as a song should be commented on. This is a sidelong track that is totally different from the sidelong tracks that they'd done before. It doesn't have the same structure as Close to the Edge or even any of the tracks on Tales from Topographic Oceans. This is like sound painting. This is a set piece that goes from movement to movement to movement, and it depicts, as we've sort of indirectly referenced, a battle. This is like a giant. I think they said it was like their version of War and Peace, essentially. And you hear that. And this is what I love about the song is it actually does such a good job of depicting the sort of the rising action of preparing for battle. It Opens with a. You know, Steve Howe is just doing clomps on his guitar, muted guitar, guitar picks, and it sounds like armies trundling onto the battlefield. They're, they're getting ready, they're getting ready for it. And then all of a sudden you see like the call to. The Call to Arms is the opening song. The part where, you know, Anderson sings and then you have the battle sequence itself, which, you know, it doesn't even need to use. You know, a lesser band would have tried to like put gunfire sound effects, but this band has Steve Howe which. Who can play guitar, make it sound like gunfire or like, you know, lances clashing against armor. It sounds so spectacularly evocative of what it tries to evoke. And that's what soon is supposed to be. It's the lament after the battle. It's kind of, I think of no Nobis Domine from the Battle of Agincourt. And we see Henry V, Branagh's version of Henry V. It's kind of a, you know, much more gritty depiction of the. Of what an actual medieval battle would be. And at the end they're just collecting the wounded and the dead. And that's what soon is. It is 20 something minutes long and it will not grip you because it doesn't kind of resolve where it begins in the way this Close to the Edge does satisfyingly. But my God, I love every single section of that song.

[Scott Bertram]

The Sun Will Lead Us.

[Brad Birzer]

Sound Chaser the chaos you describe, that was immediately appealing to me. That's the one I first heard on yes Years, all the way back in the day when I was in college and just. I was. I thought to myself, what is this? It starts with that, that keyboard run that Mraz does. And then. And I know I'm into a very strange musical space the second it begins. And yeah, it's like it gallops off and you're being dragged along behind it. It's galloping off, chasing after a sound. And like, you know, you're lucky if you're in a chariot. You're actually probably just tied up and being Dr. By wild horses to wherever they want to go. And so this is to me, again, probably the least easy, classic yes album to immediately embrace. But I think ultimately one of the most rewarding of them all.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, I think that's well put. It is rewarding. And I guess for me, I'm not even sure I could be objective about this. I didn't come to relay until late. I probably came to it after 90125, which, again, if you guys remember, I came to yes through yes songs originally, but I wasn't really a diligent yes collector until after 90125. And then I really got into the older stuff a lot. But for whatever reason, Relayer just clicked with me from the first moment I heard it. I absolutely love Gates of Delirium. I love every part of it. I think it flows so organically. It does put you right into the middle of a battle. And then I like Soundchaser following it because Soundchaser is the battle in so many ways. There's so much going on with it. My least favorite song is To Be over and I'm with Scott here. There's nothing I dislike it.

[Brad Birzer]

Just a pretty song.

[Christian Schneider]

It's very pretty.

[Brad Birzer]

Yeah.

[Christian Schneider]

It doesn't grab me. I mean, they're pretty songs on Going for the One and that are actually, I think, more effective. But yeah, again, I like it all. I'm sorry. Sorry that they only did one album with Murray. I. I think he was probably good. It sounds like they had personal problems with him. I'm not sure why he left the band as quickly as he did, because he did. It sounds like he. He played a role in writing the next album, or at least writing part of it, but gets no credit for that. But, yeah, it. It's just too bad that that kind of fell apart. But I think it's a great sound, you know, and one thing we haven't talked about, but I think we see as a pattern. Yes. Loves to bring these new people in. Right. So we had. Of course, we did talk about this. Going from Bruford to White, going from Peter Banks to Steve Howe, going from Rick Wakeman. Now we go to Moray. And of course later we'll have Trevor Rabin and other figures or Trevor Horne. It just seems like yes really feeds on this new dynamic and when they don't have that dynamic, they don't feel as strong about that, at least as I see it. So, again, I think Mouret brought something very interesting to the band.

[Brad Birzer]

By the way, Brad, now you're going to tell me that I've embarrassingly been mispronouncing this man's name my entire life. It's not Mraz, it's me.

[Christian Schneider]

Maybe it's Mraz. I have no idea. Sorry, I wasn't even thinking about that.

[Brad Birzer]

Oh, no, it could well be. And so I got no idea.

[Jeff Blair]

So, no, I don't know.

[Christian Schneider]

I have no idea. He's Swiss. Right. It could be a lot of Things.

[Brad Birzer]

It could be a lot of things, couldn't it? Right, yeah.

[Christian Schneider]

No, no, no, don't let me. That was not a correction, Jeff. Not in the least.

[Brad Birzer]

No. You actually helped set things up for where we're going next. So, like in 1975, in 74, 75, they tour Relayer, and then in 76, they do the quote solo albums tour. They kind of take a little time off. They each release their own solo albums. John Anderson has with Elias of Sun Hillo and I think Fish Out Of Water by Chris Squire. And then when they get back together to start writing and recording for the new album, that's when Murray Mraz, whatever his name be, decides he doesn't really have much to contribute to these newer pieces. And then, like, I don't know about the internal politics, but if it was just a musical excuse, I actually sort of understand it, because what they brought to the sessions for the album that would become Going for the One was music that's very different than what they were doing on either Relayer, Tales From Topographic Oceans, or, frankly, even Close to the Edge for that matter. This one harkens all the way back to something like Fragile or maybe the yes album, even in that there is one very long track on it, sort of the centerpiece at the end of the album, but it's actually composed of four very small and absolutely perfect songs that Mouret Mraz didn't know how he was going to contribute to, so he left. And who did they do? Who did they go get? They went. They got Rick Wakeman. Rick Wakeman, who was apparently over his disaffection with Yes. I think he'd heard the early versions of the songs in their demo form. He's like, well, I can do something on this. I actually really love this. I think it was wonders, stories that he heard, you know, them working up, and I was like, yeah, no, I want back in. And, boy, he picked an auspicious time to join, because Going for the One is, I'd say, very close to a masterpiece, very close to one of Yes's best albums. The only flaw on it that I can find is the song that everybody loves, which is Awakened. That big centerpiece I was referring to. It's very long, beautiful, drifty thing. And I. And I love it as Mude music. I would never turn to it to listen to the other four songs in this record. I turn to those all the time. And I could tell you maybe not two weeks goes by where I don't put on this record just because I love The Bugs Bunny Looney Tunes guitar that kicks it right off Steve. How doing this honky tonk rockabilly frog thing. I don't know what you get. What you get from the title track of Going for the One, but. But it is to this day one of the greatest surprises in my life. When I first heard it on that yes Years boxed set, I was like, well, these guys have a sense of humor. I love that album. I love that song. And I guess I just want to open up the floor to the rest of you guys. What do you think are Going for the One?

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah. So I just want to say really quickly, Jeff, I agreed with everything you said. I love Fish out of Water and as a solo album, I think it's a loss yes album. You've got Bruford on it. It's just. I think it's Squire at his abso best. And, you know, in the the 80s he did other things. Obviously he's with yes and then he did squacket with Steve Hackett later on. I don't think he's as strong as he was on Fish Out Of Water. That's just. To me, that's a pretty perfect album. And it, again, I. I consider it a. A lost yes album, which is also one reason I love Parallels on Going for the One, because I think it's Squire at his finest.

[Scott Bertram]

You've been praying for fire Give me what I say to you it's really down to your heart it's the beginning of.

[Christian Schneider]

Yo. It's his track. You can feel the bass. The bass just rumbles in that. So, yeah, I love the opening for Going for the One. It's a. That guitar just grabs you for the whole album. You go for just a beautiful ride on that. I agree with you on Awaken. It's not something I would go back to. In fact, quite often when I listen to this album, and I listen to it quite a bit, I'll often just kind of tune out Awaken. I'll let it play, but I'm not motivated by it. However, I did see it played live and I thought it was amazing live. There was something about it that just got the whole concert hall really into it. So it was pretty stunning to see that. Turn of the Century is another one of those just beautiful songs, I think. You know, you've got two of them on there. You've got Turn of the Century and you've got Awaken. Yes. Just does a nice job of making. And here I think they're more successful than to be over on Relay.

[Scott Bertram]

The ha that made all your looks as a world Keep your eyes ch.

[Christian Schneider]

I don't like the COVID though. I I, the COVID really bothers me. I, I just don't want to see a naming guy.

[Jeff Blair]

Those aren't the world that John.

[Brad Birzer]

And for the longest time, I thought that was him on the COVID and he was just showing us his cheeks.

[Christian Schneider]

He's pretty well built, if that's John Anderson.

[Brad Birzer]

No, it's a model, apparently. It's nosis cover.

[Jeff Blair]

Jeff. Those aren't the World Trade center towers on the COVID Right. And that's my first.

[Brad Birzer]

I sure hope. I sure hope not. I'm pretty certain they're now, I don't think so.

[Jeff Blair]

It's not quite exact, but they look like it to me.

[Christian Schneider]

And what are the lines that go to the guy. To the naked guy?

[Brad Birzer]

It's just, I mean, it's obviously, you know, it's not a Roger Dean album cover, let's put it that way. But I don't hate it as much. You know, I can't, I can't dislike it because I just love the music and this record so much. You talk about parallels, you know, this is the, this is what Rick Wakeman brought to the band. All right? He had this. Most of these songs had been written out in advance, so, like, you know, when he came in, it was already kind of midway through the recording process. But I swear to God, that song must have been recorded on a dare. Like, Rick Wakeman is like, I bet you I can get a church organ to rock. And the other guys were like, nah, I don't think so. He's like, just watch me. Now, that thing is, I think they actually went into a cathedral. They played it right, something like Swiss Cathedral or something, where they were recording in Montreux. And, like, it sounds amazing, that pumping bass from Squire underneath fusing with a church organ. And then Steve Howe, instead of playing rhythm guitar, he's just doing all these delightful filigrees on top of it. It's the kind of music that you thought they'd forgotten how to write, and it turns out they always had it. And it was just sort of a question of disciplining themselves or trying to do something different.

[Scott Bertram]

Our eyes.

[Brad Birzer]

Like, going for the one. As I said, this is the time when I realized yes has a sense of humor. There's actually a great lyric in that John Anderson. Not only are these guys writing focused songs, he's writing focused words. There's this great lyric. What is it now? The buses outside don't add Much weight to the story in my head. So I'm thinking that I'll go and write a punchline, but it's so hard finding my cosmic mind. He's like, I can't get into the mood, so I think I'll take a look outside the window. And then what does he come up with? When I think about you I don't feel low not even a good.

[Christian Schneider]

Lovely. It is really good.

[Brad Birzer]

But it's funny in the context of the song, which is just about like you're searching for inspiration, going for the one. And of course it's again all set to this ridiculous like out of step, like, like almost a gawky beat. It's like in five, four, and it's trying to be in four. And I am just so impressed they had the idea to like fuse all of those ideas. And I guess the last thing I'll say is you mentioned Turn of the Century, which I think is a. It's Pygmalion. Basically. It's the story of Pygmalion recast and it's Steve Howe at his absolute finest. But it's interesting, that's Alan White's song of all things. He's the one who brought that to the band. You don't think of him as like a songwriter, a melody writer, but he actually did a great contribution with that one. And I guess I have to talk about Wondrous Stories because this is just such a perfect. It's a three minute song, it's as singles radio friendly as yes we'll ever get and probably up until owner of A Lonely Heart, the one that most defined them in my mind. There's a moment halfway through it where they go into the middle eight. Hearing, hearing your wondrous stories and then it swings back into that final verse. It is no lie I see deeply into the future. And then Chris Squire sings with him in a round when they swing back into that and you know Rick Wakeman's playing these happy notes atop it. That to me is the quintessence of yes. When I think of yes in its Platonic ideal, I think of the second part of Wondrous Stories, which is just a wonder. It's a joyful song. It's the song that encouraged Rick Wakeman to rejoin the band and he knew what he saw there.

[Scott Bertram]

Hearing, hearing your wonder stories Hearing your wondrous stories it is no light be there to stand so cautiously at rest and then so high as he spoke my spirit line into the sky I be to return to hear your Wondrous stories Return to hear your Wondrous stories Return to hear you from.

[Jeff Blair]

Let Me Bounce around. Because you've talked about every song and there were all. There's only five. There's only five. And made a lot of points that I want to make. This is a fun album. And Jeff, keep that idea about Yes's sense of humor in the back of your head. This is three years later so you can have a reset. And remember three years back in the 70s between albums is forever. And so Wakeman returns. You can tell he's happy to be back, having fun. Parallels, one of the great guest songs from this era. Yes. It's also a band that rewards listening with headphones. And there's this wonderful three part vocal. Toward the end of Paris, Parallels were Squires in your left ear, Anderson straight down the middle. And Howe is singing in. In the right ear of the headphones. And it's beautiful, wonderful arrangement. The Parallels is one of the best, best songs of this yes era. Going for the one Smokes, right? It's one of the. Probably one of the straightest rock songs in their collection. It's five and a half minutes long. Jeff, I wrote down that lyric that you already quoted, so that was on my mind as well. Right? That Anderson lyric about the punchline and how he, how he resolves it. Wondrous Stories even wrote a punchline.

[Brad Birzer]

So.

[Jeff Blair]

Right. Wondrous Stories. I, you know, I stream these things and you, you can see how many times all these songs have been streamed. And so this album is like, you know, 57,000 for awaken, 100,000 for this. 8.4 million streams on Wondrous Stories and not a song that I was familiar with before listening to the album. And then you hear it and you realize why. Because it's so delicate and tuneful and pretty. And if you're a first time yes person or if you didn't know anything about yes whatsoever, you'd still be attracted to a song like Wondrous Stories. Wonderful cascading organ part. Anderson's vocals are just on point. It's a wonderful song and you can see why so many people are seeking it out, even if they're not looking for the rest of going from a 1. But yes, the rest of it is wonderful too. Turn of the century. I love the last three minutes or so, the way it resolves on. How's classical guitar? Yeah, I'm with both you too. I mean, Awaken is. Is fine. It's. There are parts in there too that I like. There's A. A section about five minutes in where I think things kind of click into place.

[Christian Schneider]

The.

[Jeff Blair]

The Workings of Man section. The first time they go to that. That melody and that comes back at the end. So that works, but it's not one of the better. Long, long songs. And yes, is canon. And like Brad, like, by the time you get through four songs that are each really excellent and this last one's really long, not quite as good, and you do kind of lose your focus as you come to the end of Going for the One, but outside of that very slight misstep, it's a really fun, really good album.

[Scott Bertram]

This promised war is seen. He's reaching something.

[Brad Birzer]

So the question is, what the heck happened? What the heck happened with the followup, Tomato, the legendarily one of the worst album covers of all time. So bad that the band even decided to throw tomatoes at it and that became the COVID They pre reviewed their own album by splattering it with producers, and it's not as bad as all of that, but there's just no question that it's like a sharp drop in the creativity between going for the One, which sounds like it's just a perfectly considered and assembled album, and then Tomato, which from its title on down feels slapped together.

[Scott Bertram]

Your first and last. Your first and last. Justify killing our last heaven beast. Don't want to.

[Brad Birzer]

It feels like there's a. There are some ideas on this record. There's actually one incredibly good song on it as well. But most of the songs to me have like a couple interesting ideas and no idea how to execute them. I think the emblematic example for me would be on the Silent Wings of Freedom. It's the final track on the album and it's a nice long, half instrumental, half singing jam. It should be right in Yes's wheelhouse. Except they don't know how to start it and they don't know how to end it. And Rick Wakeman, I gotta say, is responsible for a huge amount of this because the synth tones he's playing on this record in particular drive me up a wall. And I don't know what changed between 77 and 78. Maybe he got a new. A bunch of new patches on his keyboards, but there's just something off about production, about the arrangement and about the songwriting on this record. And I keep going back to it thinking, okay, it'll click for me this time. Every other thing this band has put out for this era really does. What is it about this record? And I still never put it together.

[Scott Bertram]

On the Silent Wings. Of freedom where we offer ourselves Miss the fallow sing of the sun all the winds of celestial season that would carry me on Mr. Balance of being won.

[Brad Birzer]

I know that you might have a different opinion than I do, Scott.

[Jeff Blair]

I do have a different opinion than you do on Tormado. And again, I know just about enough to know that this is not a beloved album in the yes canon by many fans. And I don't know, I don't have a problem with it. I like it an awful lot. One of the reason that Wakeman sounds different is he's got new equipment, right? He's playing a poly Moog and something called the. Was it the Beatron? I don't even know what that looks like, but that brings you look this up. So he's playing totally different, different equipment on this record. And I will say this, I understand that people might be turned off a bit by that, by those tones. Doesn't bother me at all. And there are portions where I like it a lot. That's. That's a clear difference. And this is why I wanted you to keep this in mind. This to me, from the COVID to the songs, this is. Yes. Playing with a nod and a wink and having fun. This is a fun album. Look, don't kill the whale, right? It's got this disco esque beat, kind of strange topic. That's a fun song actually.

[Brad Birzer]

I like that one. Yeah.

[Jeff Blair]

Arriving UFO begins with. I could not take it so seriously. Really. When you called and said you'd seen a UFO and then bought and then goes into this whole thing. By the time you get to the end here it is, the coming of outer space. Such a pure delight. Like you move from this uncertainty and skepticism to a full embrace of our friends in the arriving ufo. That's one where I know he's playing Polymoo. That's one. I imagine that you might not like the tones on that. I think it works great. There's a. There's a playfulness all over this album that I really, really enjoy. And the songs by and large are great. I'll cede this to you. I know.

[Brad Birzer]

By the way, Scott, I'm gonna say you actually singled out the one place where I think Wick Wake and synths are great. I love. There's the sound effects. They get on like the opening. It sounds like an alien trans transmission coming in. That's really clever. That's where it works. And so you did single out the one place where. Yes, Wakeman does his job well.

[Scott Bertram]

I could not take it all so seriously. Really? When you called and said writing spelt out to me Never dreamed of before I looked out in the night Strange and startling Whilst it's by some time the same there's got to be a linking of everyone. Got to be a center in all God's bloody wide.

[Jeff Blair]

There are portions here that aren't perfect. Circus of Heaven don't like. And Jeff used the exact word in an email that I wrote down. It's. It's a little too twee. You wouldn't call it that back in 1978. We'd call it that today. Anderson brings his son on to do the speaking part at the end. All right. Doesn't work. I think the other kind of slower one beside the one that Jeff wants to talk about. I'm saving it for him. Madrigal is fine. I like Wake Bend on the harpsichord. Outplay Spanish guitar. I think that's a fine, fine song. And everything else I think is really great. Release Release might be my favorite song of this whole era. I. I think it's just fantastic. How's playing his Fender? I think White's really great on the drums. Again, when I say this is kind of a playful, fun album and I understand if it's not for everyone. There's a part in Release Release. When it drops down. There's a drum solo from. From White over this pumped in fake crowd noise. I get. It's not for everyone. I think it works perfectly in the. The context of Release Release. And it leads into this blistering guitar solo from. From how by the end you are totally swept up in this race. Race to the finish line of Release Release. It's a great song. It's a great rock song. It's a great yes so.

[Scott Bertram]

Far in the craziness. Open your hope for your sister. Release Release, Release, Release, Release.

[Jeff Blair]

And then Future Time. Rejoice, the first song on the album. These two songs glued back to back. I love the rhythmic chug that you have at the beginning of Future Time. That main sort of ascending melody that Wakeman plays, especially throughout the second part of that song. It really is a showcase for a lot of Wakeman synth work toward the back half of Future Time and Future your times. And Rejoice. That's a fun, fun song too. I know this is an album that's been pilloried. I know it's not one that's a favorite of yes fans necessarily. I'm the outsider who's here to defend Toromado. I think it's a really great album with some fantastic songs.

[Scott Bertram]

Around, around until we pick it up again Time flies all along it goes through the setting sun carry Round and round and round and round and round and round and round Round and round.

[Brad Birzer]

Love this opinion. I love this. Different opinions on political beats. This is great. Brad, where do you fall?

[Christian Schneider]

Well, I guess I'm probably in between you two. I love the criticism and I love the love that you're showing for this as well. I've never disliked the album. It's not one that I go back to a lot. There are parts of it that I really like. I actually it's interesting your comments, Jeff, on the Silent Wings of Freedom. That is one of my all time favorite yes songs. And when we do our top five, that's going to be one that I put in there. I love it. I think it's squired.

[Brad Birzer]

I love the middle section of it is so good. Right. The actual theme. But it's just. It doesn't begin and end correctly. I don't know what's going on.

[Christian Schneider]

For whatever reason it's always spoken to me. For me it's the perfect follow up to Parallels after Going for the one. And I've always been taken with Squire's bass playing again going back to Fish out of Water. I think he was doing really interesting things in the 70s and then again in the the 80s, especially in 90125 I think. And a drama. I just think that Squire's at it at his top form. I think he's at his.

[Scott Bertram]

Ra.

[Christian Schneider]

You know what's interesting to me? I, I like Future Times and Rejoice. I, I think that's a great way to open the, the album. Don't Kill the Whale. Normally I would hate something that blatant and on the nose in terms of politics, but I like it. For whatever reason I like it shows. I like it here. I think it's a good song. Madrigal. I, I, I don't love it but I think it's fine. Release. Release. I really like. I think it's a, a great rock song. Arriving ufo I enjoy Circus of Heaven is just cheesy. It just, it doesn't work. And I, I understand what they were trying to do, but it just doesn't work. But then onward and on the Silent Wings of Freedom I think is a great way to save the album and bring us back to it. And let me, let me just say really quickly too. I don't know if you guys. Which CD version you have. I've got the one with the bonus track.

[Brad Birzer]

I have multiple CD versions Of as it turns out.

[Christian Schneider]

And I love Abilene as a song that was released at the same time as a B side. Don't Kill the Whale. I love High, the Steve Howe song Day's Countryside. I actually think that the B sides they did for this album are pretty fantastic overall.

[Brad Birzer]

Some of them are B sides, some of them I think are outtakes. And yeah. Also sort of previews of the. Of the sessions for the next album, which is of course a story. We'll have to get to that.

[Christian Schneider]

But the ones.

[Brad Birzer]

But they're. They're not bad.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, no, they're not bad at all. In fact, I. I think some of them. And they get political a few times. I think they're really funny.

[Brad Birzer]

I mean, that's a great one.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, I. I think it's great. So anyway, I think that they had their creativity at the time, but they definitely made some weird choices for Tomato.

[Brad Birzer]

Everything you can. And I'm trying to do that now.

[Jeff Blair]

With the country trip. My.

[Brad Birzer]

And so ends my partly satirical broadcast.

[Scott Bertram]

On the UN.

[Christian Schneider]

And you know, even the. The name Trust Bizarre.

[Jeff Blair]

But the tour was tour motto.

[Christian Schneider]

Right? Right.

[Jeff Blair]

I mean, come on. Fun. It' yeah, they're having fun stuff.

[Brad Birzer]

You know, you're right. The thing is the insight about how this is a playful album is, believe it or not, something that it has escaped me. And you're so correct when you think about the outtakes, the things you're talking about. Like, you know, it's Rick Wakeman doing the narrative over money, you know, and isn't his British accent. It's really funny. Or trying to do a country song. If Abilene, which I don't think they do a good job of. I think it's kind of like Rick Wakeman does not know how to play on a country tune. The things that he comes up with that are just really unfortunate.

[Christian Schneider]

So, you know, Jeff and Scott, I would also say this 1978 is a weird year for music, especially if you're a yes band. Because, I mean, what are you going to do? Prague is kind of done and you're not quite at punk yet or. And new wave is just barely starting. So it's just. It's an odd time for them and I think they're doing some interesting things, especially given how odd that year would have been for a project rock band.

[Brad Birzer]

I guess it's easier for me to appreciate Tomato now. Is that like. Sort of like they're goofing around album, you know, and enjoy for the silliness. But it certainly. It lacks the High seriousness of like going for the One or Relayer. There is one track on here, though, that does sort of, to me compare with, you know, all the best of their work. And it's a. It's just hidden away at near the end of the album. They finally started playing it live in the 90s. And I don't know why they didn't before then, because Onward, I think Onward is probably. Probably my favorite Chris Squire song of all time. It's purely his composition. And you guys talked about how. We've talked about how Rick Wakeman has a different set of keys and different keyboard sound on this record. Less often observed is how Squire has a very different bass sound on this album as well. It's a more kind of a bouncy and a wobbly thing, which I actually don't mind one bit. I like it as opposed to that very thick, coiled, you know, hammering string thing that he was very famous is for. And you hear it on Onward. You hear this just spacey bass plucking out like simple notes, you know, an arpeggiated thing that anybody could play as Steve. How, you know, does these. These guitar runs above him and John Anderson just sings a simple love song. And then something else unusual happens. Strings are brought in. Talk about how this is their experimental album. Yes, it's never played with an orchestra. They would never play with one again until much later in their career. Career. But they bring it in an Onward. And it works beautifully. And it's just a gentle, gliding, simple song. It's not close to the edge. And I think it gets forgotten because it sits away at the back half of an album that most people forget anyway.

[Scott Bertram]

Contained in everything I do There's a.

[Brad Birzer]

Love.

[Scott Bertram]

I feel for you. Proclaimed in everything I write. You're the light burning brightly. Onward through the night. Onward through the night. Onward through the night of my life.

[Brad Birzer]

Now that having been said, they liked it. They toward the heck out of it too. The 1978, they tore twice. They turned 78 and then they did like, yes, in the round 79. Great shows, by the way. You know, there are a lot of them out there you can go listen to if you want. And they. Unfortunately, they flogged Circus of Heaven at every one of those shows. So that would have been the moment where you went to the bathroom. But. But what matters is that in 1979, when they were done with the tour, they finally reconvened to record their next album. And they had, as a producer this time, Eddie Offered's long since out of the Picture, they had Roy Thomas Baker. Now, was it you, Scott, who said that Roy Thomas Baker basically has produced the Cars and nothing else of value?

[Jeff Blair]

Yes. Yes, I think that's my exact line.

[Brad Birzer]

Yeah, I think that's about right. So the sessions with him just bad as you might have thought, Toromado was or was unfocused. The sessions for this one were even worse. Some of the outtakes now circulate and, you know, I listen to them. They're terrible. They're just not great. And it's just. Clearly, there's no inspiration. So, like, I think one night at the pub, John Anderson and Rick Wakeman knock off together, and they're both getting drunk and, like, lamenting how bad the situation is. Like, this isn't the band that I used to do. Used to know we're not making great music anymore. The madness magic is gone and they decide to quit together. Okay, meaning yes is lost not only its keyboardist. Hey, that happens all the time. They've also lost their lead vocalist and one of their main songwriters. Yeah, is. Is this the end for yes? Because, you know, you can sustain, you know, replacing a drummer here and there or replacing, you know, a keyboardist, but John Anderson's voice, like, defined yes versus lot of people. Yes said, now we're not going to quit. And so what do they do? They rounded up the Buggles. This is one of the funniest stories of all time. So video killed the radio star and everything, right? You know, everyone knew that song. It's the first song that MTV played when they. When they launched.

[Scott Bertram]

I heard you on the wireless back in 52 lying awake intently tuning in on you if I was young it didn't stop you coming through O they took the credit for your second symphony Rewritten by machine on new technology and now I understand the problems you could.

[Brad Birzer]

See.

[Scott Bertram]

I met your children what did you tell them? Video killed the radio star Video killed the cheers Came and broke your heart.

[Brad Birzer]

The Buggles were a new wave act that had real secret frog sympathies underlying their music. And as it turns out, you can.

[Jeff Blair]

See also you can see Jeff in the video Kill the Radio Star video. That's a serious keyboard rig there. That guy knows what he's doing.

[Brad Birzer]

Yeah, Jeff Downs is not playing. All right. You know, he's a really great keyboardist. Trevor Horn was the vocalist. And so, hey, looks like we need a keyboardist and a vocalist, and you guys are a keyboardist in a vocalist duo. Why don't you join? And that's how you get drama, which is an album that first of all, the title tells you exactly what was going on. Dramatic situation within the band. And I will point out that was also roundly panned when it was released. It was hated. People were enraged at the loss, not just of Wakeman. Hey, they'd gotten used to that at the time, but Anderson in particular. And you're bringing in these. These what? New wave dorks. Felt like an insult. The tour was a disaster because, yes, rather selfishly, in my opinion, refused to change the keys of some of their older songs. So Trevor Horton had to sing stuff like Yours is no disgrace. It's just not in his range. And if you've heard the tapes of him trying to warble his way through it, it's sad. It actually is. Like, you don't want to listen to it. It's painful to hear and it's not. It was not fair to him and just. And everything went so badly that the band immediately collapsed afterwards. Trevor Horn said, I'm never touring again. I am never putting myself through this again.

[Jeff Blair]

I'm.

[Brad Birzer]

I'm done. I'm out. I'm going to become a record producer. Which is what he did. Jeff Downs was like, well, I got nothing else to do. So he quit as well. The band collapsed. Now, the irony of all. All this is, is that I think Drama is one of the two greatest yes albums ever made. I adore it. I think it is a masterpiece. And it is a brilliant fusion. It is exactly what it was intended to be. A fusion of prog rock and new wave and art rock to bring you something totally different and yet still same. You still have the continuity within yes, but this. And not 902. This, to me, was the sound of yes actually remaking themselves for the 80s. And it's a shame that it didn't continue further because I'm so impressed with every aspect of this record.

[Scott Bertram]

That's what you say. Could it really happen to you?

[Christian Schneider]

I'm with you. This is one of my two favorite yes albums. Just. I absolutely adore this album. And I think. I mean, kind of what you were saying, Jeff. It's interesting to me that in a sense, they created a whole new genre of music with drama. And I hear it. There are a couple of other albums. I think the Fix, Reach the Beach did something very similar. I think Rush with Power Windows did something very similar. But they are.

[Brad Birzer]

I nominate Abacab by Genesis.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, that's good. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's something about being able to combine new wave and Prague that Just makes it absolutely fascinating. I don't think there's a dud song on Drama. I think from the opening moment, of course, it's a short album. It's one of their shorter albums. I think it's only, what, 35, 38 minutes long. But even White Car, which is a song that should never have gone anywhere. And it doesn't in a way, but it fits so perfectly.

[Brad Birzer]

Beautiful bridge between Machine Messiah and. Does it really happen?

[Christian Schneider]

It is.

[Brad Birzer]

And yeah. It's like a minute and 34 seconds. Yes. Would never have recorded a fragment like that in their past.

[Christian Schneider]

No. And only. Only Trevor Horn could get away with producing something like that. I. It just. It has horns feel all over.

[Scott Bertram]

Move like Eos down the sky Take all your dreams and you drive them away.

[Christian Schneider]

And I. I know. In our email following up to this, you mentioned Frankie Goes to Hollywood, which of course, would be kind of the thing that really puts Trevor Horne on the radar for everyone but ABC as well. The band Lexicon of Love, or abc with their album the Lexicon of Love. That was Trevor Horne. I mean, in so many ways, Trevor Horne is the sound of the best of the 80s and even into the 90s with someone like Seal just doing really beautiful. What's called progressive soul. I think they're doing great things. So Drama I love. And I'm.

[Brad Birzer]

I'll just make another point before you get. You get specific about the song.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah.

[Brad Birzer]

People objected to his voice. I love Trevor Horn's voice.

[Christian Schneider]

I do, too.

[Brad Birzer]

When he's singing his own material, the material that he wrote that's in his range, he sounds great. I don't actually object to. He. He does sound a lot like John Anderson, by the way, but, you know, he has his own style and his own kind of punch with his vocal attack that works really well with this music. I don't understand why people rebelled Run.

[Scott Bertram]

Down the street where the glass shows that summer has gone Agent the doorways Resenting the face of the dawn.

[Brad Birzer]

All.

[Scott Bertram]

Of them stopping at night all of them waiting for time from time to Rene the fleshy messiah is gone Cables that carry the light to the cities we build presently Diamonds of light to the satanic mills to see in every way.

[Christian Schneider]

And it works really well with Chris Squire's voice and with Steve Howe's voice. The three of them together sound fantastic on this album, and they really know how to utilize those vocals beautifully. And I just. From the opening moment of the album with that guitar on Machine Messiah, it is a driving attack. It reminds me a little bit of the battle sequence from Gates of Delirium, I think they're playing with a similar kind of sound here, but they take it in such a different direction. And the lyrics on Machine Messiah. Cables that carry the life to the cities we build Threads that link diamonds of light to the satanic mills Those are great. That's great. I think they're wonderful lyrics. And really, the whole.

[Brad Birzer]

That's Trevor. That's Trevor Horne's lyrics, I believe, right?

[Christian Schneider]

I assume so, yeah. And just, I think, amazing stuff. The angular eye, all of these things. I just. I think they do a really good job of bringing it together. And then, you know, all of the songs work. I don't know if they should, but they all do. Into the Lens, I think, is a great.

[Brad Birzer]

I Am a Camera that was actually a buggle song. And they brought it. Brought it with them and it expanded it out. Yeah.

[Christian Schneider]

Run through the light I asked my love to give me shelter and all she offered me were dreams I mean, those are great, great lines, and they're delivered beautifully. And then you get to that last song, which is just a total rocker. Tempest Fugit. And. And they'll play this throughout their live sets in the 80s again with. With Whitefish. They do just such a good job.

[Brad Birzer]

With the instrumental parts. Right. Yeah. And. And by the way, I always joked. I thought as a joke, like, they must have really been desperate to establish their brand identity with that song.

[Jeff Blair]

Absolutely.

[Brad Birzer]

Because he just keeps saying, yes, yes, yes. Remember, guys, we are the SA.

[Scott Bertram]

Freaks. At the sight our mind could decide herself and the nearer I came of the country with change she was using the landscape to hide herself more in the mind and the body this feeling sense of the end Like a circular light that is drawn in an angle as she went up with you to navigate waters but finally I say yes.

[Christian Schneider]

And I'm wearing my. My Drama T shirt today. But I think this is also. And I. I've said this repeatedly about Roger Dean, but I love the artwork, and I love the fact that they brought this back.

[Brad Birzer]

This is my favorite Roger Dean album cover. Yours is relayer Drama, for me, is the. Is. I just love. There's something about the tones. It's like that dark beach and the midnight sky. There's just. It's very unreal. It's an unreal world.

[Christian Schneider]

And the Panthers running.

[Brad Birzer]

Mesmerizing.

[Jeff Blair]

Yeah.

[Brad Birzer]

And Panthers chasing after, like, you know, they're chasing after some game. It's wonderful image, Scott. I mean, I know you're not as big a fan of this album as we are so explain why you're wrong.

[Jeff Blair]

I like this album, but I don't love this album. Although I'm willing to give it more chances. Something Brad said in an email last night is sticking with me a bit, and I wonder if I have to adjust my perspective. Brad was saying this is the equivalent of Russia's Turn around this time to Power Windows and moving pictures. And I was thinking a lot about that when I was listening one last time to Drama last night. So I may have to come in with a different mindset, but I do like it. This is not to say I think it's a terrible product at all. My problems with Drama revolve around a couple of different pieces. One is the songs to me sound just more. More mannered. So Machine Messiah begins with this big, lumbering, heavy opening section that just like announces itself onto you and sort of says, this is going to be an important song. You need to listen to this. So that's not the way that yes songs sort of used to announce themselves. This is a different, different thing. And that happens a few times on the record. I know Horn's a fabulous.

[Brad Birzer]

Actually, it's a different style. You're right about this.

[Jeff Blair]

I know Horn's a fantastic producer. But the cleanliness of the sound here also is strange to my ears. Like on into the Lens, especially on Does It Really Happen, which I like. But all these songs are hooky, right? I mean, you could remember, you know, I like Jeff was saying I am a Camera. Or even the heavier part where they repeat that. Does it really Happen? Has it great hook, this great little melody. Tempest Fugit. Of course, with all the shouts of yes, it will get stuck in your head. So that's not the problem here. I just think some of the approaches are just slightly off to my ears. The drive, the attack part of that, I think is too, because Downs is unafraid to take a backseat to how there's a lot of Howe Wakeman friction previously about how these songs are going to be arranged and who takes the lead and who's out front. And for the most part on Drama, Downes, even though he's very talented, cedes that space to how. So there is more guitar, there is more sort of, I want to say harsh tone, but I mean, the hard how tone is more prevalent on a lot of these songs.

[Scott Bertram]

Take heart I could never let you go I was Let the feelings show Love us all have you never broke your heart how you lose them if you feel the feelings touch I am a camera camera, camera I am a camera A camera. Camera taken. They can so easily transform trans.

[Jeff Blair]

And I. I think I missed that a bit too. My favorite parts of Going for the One and to. A lot of the favorite parts are Wakeman doing his thing. And you don't have that as much here on Drama because a lot of those parts go to how instead. And I love how. But it's a different setting, it's a different sound. And I would disagree with Brad just a little bit. I think Run through the Hills is a totally generic, forgettable song.

[Brad Birzer]

Run through the Light. Not Run through the Hill.

[Jeff Blair]

I'm sorry, that's a totally different band. Yes. Run through the Light. It's just a generic song. It doesn't have the hooks of the other ones and is totally forgettable once you. Once you move past it so that it's not any one big thing. It's sort of all those things together that add up to tell me I like it. The hooks are good. I remember a lot of these songs. I don't love it. I don't embrace it the way that I do. So it's not like the yes album for me or Fragile. It's a different setting for these songs and I'm not sure it settles the right way for my ears. Like it. Don't love it.

[Brad Birzer]

Viva la difference. And I'm going to tell you the reason I love this record is precisely because of the difference. Because I think maybe in the same way that Brad does, it seems like they're taking the yes sound and they're updating it for the 80s. And so it is a change, but it feels like it's an organic advancement now. Your point about I think Run through the Light. Dance through the Light. It's just so hard to even remember the name of the song. Right. It is the most generic thing on this record. But I don't really dock the record record that much for it because all the other tracks to me are just massive. Now you said does it really happen? Sounds manner to you. I. I think that's one of the most kick ass bass lines in history.

[Jeff Blair]

Yeah, just the way.

[Brad Birzer]

The way it opened with Chris Squire just. He's back to his traditional bass sound. You'll notice he's not using the same tricks that he was on Toromato. That to me it's. It's. It's quintessential a Squire moment as they get. And by the way, it's. It's telling too that that was a song that was from the Going for the one Se. There's an early Outtake version of it, where John Anderson is singing lyrics. And it's the same melody, it's the same basic riff. They even have some of those keyboard ideas there already. But, my gosh, the difference between, you know, that and this is the difference between chalk and cheese. They pull the arrangement together so tightly.

[Scott Bertram]

We pray the weight, the weight Awake the heat the ins away to take it back Lips away like running water Live for the pleasure Live by the gun Heritage for sun and doctor down to the slaughter up for the fun up for. Up for. Up for anything.

[Brad Birzer]

And it's the same thing with the Tempest Fugitive. That thing is just spring coiled. The thing is just. It's in a. Time flies and this thing rushes by you as fast as it possibly can. These songs, to me, are some of the most major creations of Yes's career. And I'm. I'm always laughing at the fact that the album was so roundly rejected at the time. And it's only recently, I think probably no other album in Yes's discography has undergone, like a retrospective, you know, reassessment more than drama. People didn't like it at the time, but I think most yes fans now are willing to admit it's one of their five greatest records.

[Scott Bertram]

If you were there, you would want to believe me, in a sense. You recall the materials and the nothing to really be living it would chuck your ball into lightning like in the sky the moment I see you it's so good to be near youg give me Makes me want to be with you Yes.

[Christian Schneider]

I. I think that's probably very true. I. You see that on the yes, at least on the Facebook pages. Drama is definitely un. Under Ghana. Yeah, you're right.

[Brad Birzer]

It didn't help him at the time, though, because, you know, the band collapsed and. And they were literally. This time they were done. You can't replace your keyboardist and lead singer two times in a row. So they thought, well, or can you? We'll find that out. Right? So they thought it was over. And yet they still owed two albums on their contract to Atlantic Records. So Chris Squire put together, you know, two things. There was a compilation that everybody knows from their childhood called Classic yes, which is, you know, it's fine, but there's no point in. You can get all the. You should get the albums. They're worth it. And then there's something that isn't a curio at all. It's yes shows. It's the sequel to yes songs. And, you know, I know Scott's not a live guy, but I'd be very interested in Brad's opinion on this one because this to me is every bit as good as yes songs, which you guys will remember. I chose as one of my two records from Last Episode. It's just as good. The only complaint is that it's not a triple album. I wish it was a three record set as opposed to just these two LPs. But the performances of. Of Gates of Delirium and going for the one and time and a word, which you know, from 1970, they haul that one out in the Toromato tour. It sounds wonderful. But especially Ritual with Patrick Mraz on Keys. It's from the 76 tour. That is such a stunning performance precisely because it made me like a song that I until that moment had been bored with. I did not get that song until I heard them play it live. And the funny thing is it's like seven minutes longer than the album version includes. So much more like soloing doesn't get boring to me for one second. Well, I don't know what your thoughts are though. I know. Scott, have you even listened to this?

[Jeff Blair]

I did, I did. I gave it a one through last night. And what I would say is that I like the track listing. Like, it's a very interesting selection of songs. As you said, they go way back to the very beginning for one of them, when it's only. Is it only eight songs? I think it's only eight songs. One of them, of course, is one of the side long tracks from Tales of Topographic Ocean. Yeah, you're right. So I.

[Brad Birzer]

There's Gates of Delirium as well.

[Jeff Blair]

Yeah, right. And so that sort of cuts down on the variety you'll get. But the songs they chose, Shoes are very interesting. And I've seen. I did go. I went to YouTube I found a few times or a few shows in which they were playing live with. With this lineup. And it's a pretty vibrant, you know, live show, as you said. That's the place where you really hear the difference. I think in. In lead Singer, there are parts in drama where you can close your eyes and think that's pretty close to Anderson, I think, until you get to like, does it really happen? And especially into the lens where the. You really notice the. The difference in the voice with Trevor Horn and live, I noticed it as well. Not a bad thing. Just more noticeable as live albums go. It's all right. Like the track listings and pretty good performances.

[Brad Birzer]

All right.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, I'm not. I like it a lot. I don't think I'M quite as taken with it as you are, Jeff. It doesn't do as much for me as yes Songs does. I think it's a great compilation of what they were doing. I did not know that they. I learned from you. I did not know that they had two albums they still had to put out. When I was getting ready for this conversation today, I looked up Classic yes and I was kind of surprised to find that they sold over a million copies of that album.

[Brad Birzer]

It's a huge seller. That's why it was ubiquitous in my childhood.

[Christian Schneider]

I mean, especially. I mean, you think about where Prague was at the time that album came out. You know, Prague was kind of done. But the fact that they could still sell a million copies. I mean, I would assume Drama didn't sell that well. I didn't look that up, but I assume it didn't. And then, by the way, one of.

[Brad Birzer]

The funniest things about Classic yes is that it's the greatest hits album and they don't include either I've Seen All Good People or Roundabout on purpose.

[Christian Schneider]

Now, my copy of yes Shows is the expanded edition, and it does have All Good People. I've seen All Good People in Roundabout on it, but obviously that wasn't on the original. But I agree with you. I think Gates of Delirium is fantastic. Live Parallels is a great way to open the album. Ritual. I would. One thing I would like. I would love to go back and listen to an entire show from, say, 1978, rather than having these from different. Different shows. I would like to hear a whole show. Overall, I think that would be fascinating.

[Scott Bertram]

There's going to be a time and the time is not. It's right for me. It's right for me. And the time is.

[Brad Birzer]

Yeah, I thought it was a great record and I. I don't mind the. The compilation approach, where it's like different eras, different tours, but one way or another, it was the end of the band. Right? Where were yes in 1981? They were nowhere. In fact, I think it was. Chris Squire and Alan White were off doing something else. They had met this fella named Trevor Rabin, guy from South Africa, a guitarist, a songwriter and a singer and really talented guy, actually. He could do it all. And he and Squire really hit it off very well as a songwriting duo. And with White, until. White and Squire have always had really tight working relationship as well, they decided to start a new band the way all these other ex Prague rockers were doing, like Asia and guitar and all that, you know. Of course, Steve Howe was involved in many of those. So what do they do? They're going to come up with a group called Cinema is the name of it. And so in 1982, they sort of recorded the demos for this. This new band project called Cinema. And I don't know if it was, like, Ahmet Erdogan, who listened to it, or if it was someone else. They said, hey, you know what? You need a keyboardist. So, well, okay, fine. Well, who's out there playing keyboards? We can recruit. We've had enough of Rick Wakeman for a while. Oh, how about Tony K? Haven't talked to him in a while. It's been a decade, right? So they get Tony K into the band, and I'm not even sure why, because Trevor Rabin plays most of the synths on the next album. And then it was just only a matter of time, I suppose, before they said, listen, we already have, like, three force of yes. Somebody want to give John Anderson a phone call. And that's when yes basically reformed. And this version of yes is fundamentally different in a way that Drama wasn't. Drama felt like a natural and organic advance on what had already come with, you know, say, going for the one in Toromato, even though it was, you know, different lead singer and everything. 90125 is basically, yes revamped.

[Scott Bertram]

You can fool yourself, you can cheat until you're blind you can cut your heart it can happen you can mend the wires you can feed the soul apart you reach it can happen to you it can happen to me it can happen to everyone eventually.

[Brad Birzer]

In a way that fits with a very different concept that Chris Squire and in particular Chris Squire and Raven wanted to perform themselves. And so everything else feels somewhat secondary to the Squire, Raven access of all of these upcoming albums. And that doesn't make them bad albums at all. And in fact, I think 90125 is a fantastic record, but it is also fundamentally different from everything yes had done up until that point. And I. There's no surprise to me that it alienates a lot of hardcore fans. What do you guys think of it.

[Scott Bertram]

All?

[Brad Birzer]

This is your first album, Brad, wasn't it?

[Christian Schneider]

No, not my first album. I. I guess Songs was.

[Brad Birzer]

Oh, yes, Songs was.

[Christian Schneider]

Right. This is. This is the album and I. This is the album that made me realize I was absolutely in love with rock music. It really, you know, I. I was a. Gosh, I would have been a sophomore in high school when this came out. And it's really the. The first time that I kind of discovered Headphones and I used to.

[Brad Birzer]

This is the time to become a music fanatic.

[Christian Schneider]

Sophomore year of high school, you know, I just. I remember I have great memories. My little town of Hutchinson, Kansas, sitting in my bedroom with my headphones on and the lights off and me just totally focused on 90125. Those are. Those are great memories of childhood for me. And so, yeah, it was. It was an amazing thing. And Jeff, I'm totally, totally with you. Drama was an evolution. 90125 was a revolution in the way that they were approaching music. I don't think there's a bad song on here at all, but again, I don't think I could think objectively about this. It really is one of the. Along with Moving Pictures and a couple of other albums, abacab. It's just. It's one of those albums that just completely changed my world in terms of understanding music. So I love it. I. I love Cinema as a track. I think the second side of the album Cinema and Leave It. I thought that was just pretty much perfection at the time. And again, I think we have to give a huge. I mean, there's a lot of credit that goes to Trevor Rabin. He really revolutionizes the music. But it's also Trevor Horn and his production, which is just outstanding on this. So clean, so angular, so clear in everything they're doing. This just has Trevor Horne written all.

[Brad Birzer]

Over.

[Christian Schneider]

In ways that Big Generator just didn't. It didn't. It didn't work. So what makes it work on 90125? I think it's a kind of perfect combination of Raven and Horn. Again, I'm not. I know we'll talk about this when we get to Big Generator, but I'm not sure why it failed there and works so successfully here on 90125.

[Brad Birzer]

Scott, you know you spent all this time getting used to the sound of this band.

[Christian Schneider]

Yes.

[Brad Birzer]

That you'd really never heard before. What did you think when you had to readjust to a completely different band? Yes.

[Jeff Blair]

Well, I knew.

[Brad Birzer]

I knew Owner of A Lonely Heart, for crying out.

[Jeff Blair]

I knew a lot of stuff on 90125 and knew it was different. Knew that, you know, again, knew the story of yes before I knew the mu. All the music of yes. So I knew some of the drama here, no pun intended, in part of the background too. You know how and downs go off. They form Asia. They're having success in the early 80s. Squire and White nearly get together with Paige Cajun Plant to form a bank called xyz. X yes and X yes and Zapple that falls apart before. Before this comes together. And, you know, to Brad's point, and it's probably oversimplifying it, but the reason 90125 works, maybe big Generator doesn't, is because just this really unique combination of ingredients that come together in a very specific way. Trevor Horn is here on the production end and he is shaping the sound of the decade. He is lending his expertise, helping with focus and conciseness and getting to the hook and all those things that make for successful singles. Trevor Rabin is pretty good guitarist, pretty good songwriter. You know, he's bringing a busload of ideas to the band at this point.

[Christian Schneider]

Right.

[Jeff Blair]

Little too aor, a little too mainstream, perhaps. It's times. Yeah. But then the rest of the band sort of brings him out of that inside. Different tracks. Anderson comes on late after almost all these songs are written, but he still gets writing credits on, I think, seven of these songs. So he's shaping and rewriting second verses and adding his touch. And then Horne, of course, is the guy playing much of the keys in the organ here too. But all those individual pieces coming together with just the right amount. Like, it's not too much John Anderson. It's just the right John Anderson. It's not an overwhelming amount of Trevor Rabin, which I think Big Generator is. It's just the right amount of Trevor Rabin and it all is just the right mixture. And then you get. That's how you get a number one song. I am such a dork. I will listen to the first 25 seconds of owner of a Lonely Heart on repeat, just the first 25 seconds and think about the number of decisions, decisions made in just those 25 seconds to completely grab the listener. You know, the, the, the, the, the, the. The drums.

[Brad Birzer]

Drum sample.

[Jeff Blair]

The drum sample. Right. The orchestra hits that just buzzsaw raven guitar tone and. And then before you even get to the lyrics, there are like 18 different decisions made to make sure that. That the right amount of everything. I listen to that over and over and over and over. It's just a wonderful piece of, of arrangement and, and production.

[Scott Bertram]

Move yourself, you always live your life never thinking of the future Prove yourself, you are the move you make. Take your chances, win or loser, be yourself you are the stuff you think you and you shake, shake yourself your every move you make. So the story goes.

[Jeff Blair]

And that song, which is a Raven song, I mean, if you can hear his demo, it's essentially the same song. Couple changes here. Anderson rewrote Some of the second verse, the eagle in the sky, that's all Anderson stuff, but it's a Raven song that he brings to the band. That contrast between Anderson's voice and the verses, Raven's voice in the chorus, really innovative, neat solo from Raven that does kind of echo some of the stuff that. How was doing. How was such an inventive guitarist and. And at least here on this track, Raven sounds that way too. So you have all these pieces put together and that's how you get a number one song. That's how you get Owner of A Lonely Heart. I don't know if it's the best song on the album, though. I think It Can Happen is just a genius piece of performance and songwriting. That's a big Squire song that Raven helps and Anderson helps. Again. This is one that Anderson helped just the right amount of Anderson. He helps reshape it after he comes and joins this, the cinema project. I mean, listen.

[Brad Birzer]

Yeah, he writes that opening melody. You know, you can fool yourself, you can cheat until you're blind. That to me, is like building up to the chorus. That's the hook. So Anderson actually contributed a huge amount to this song, in my opinion.

[Jeff Blair]

Yes. All of that tension that builds in the verses with the help of Anderson is then released in that massive chord. And you get that wonderful pre chorus where, you know, there's a crazy world outside. We're not about to lose our pride before it slams into the chorus and you. You do release all this tension from the verses. And I love. In that. In that. In that chorus, the. The emphasis at the end of each line. Right? It can happen to you, it can happen to me, it can happen to everyone eventually. Just a brilliant line read by Anderson. And you listen in the background, although it's prominent at times, you hear what Squire is doing at that bass, that it's just brilliant. It's a wonderful song. It's almost a mystery how something like that chart. Electric sitar, for goodness sake. And yet.

[Brad Birzer]

I was about to say you didn't mention the electric sitar.

[Jeff Blair]

It's so glorious and yet that's just. I don't. I didn't look up where it charted, but it was a serious song. It was on mtv. It got tons of airplay. It's a song that I remember even not being a, you know, a huge yes fan and loving. Loving that hook in the chorus. I think It Can Happen is the best song here.

[Scott Bertram]

Look out There's a crazy world outside we're. It can happen to you it can happen to me it can happen to everyone eventually. As you happen to say. It can happen today as it happens. It happens in every way. As you happen to see. It will happen to be. Nothing happens to nowhere. And nowhere.

[Brad Birzer]

It'S.

[Jeff Blair]

I. I don't think it's perfect, you know, like hold on was another single. It's just such a big track and that's where you have. You sprinkle in a little bit too much. Trevor Raybitt. I think it's so aor. It's so smooth. It is so close to something like Richard Marx might have been doing a few years after the Fact, where he's trying to rock but still be a little sensitive. And so that's. It's an open okay track. But it is. It does sound dated. It's not one of my all favorites from this. From this record. Brad mentioned Cinema, which is a good song. Our song is kind of a sleeper late in the album, but Changes and Changes has that big, massive chorus too, where things are kind of floating around and then it locks together for the chorus. And I wonder if one of the great gifts that Raven gave to yes was the ability to write these huge choruses, these things that get stuck in people's heads. Horn probably helped with that too. But you look at these songs that Raven brought to the band, they all have these really big, hooky choruses. The kind of things that people remember, the kind of things that make them go out and buy an album like 90125. It is a totally different band, despite the fact there are so many of the same personnel. But it works. It works because just the right amount of everyone involved.

[Scott Bertram]

The mirror seen our happiness.

[Christian Schneider]

All the.

[Scott Bertram]

One I gave you Turn to emptiness the love we had is fallen love we used to share Love me here Believe it In love that wants to stay Change, changing places Put yourself to the ground Run to the wise where you get what's coming One word can bring you round Change it But when I look into your eyes I'm trying to find.

[Brad Birzer]

Boy, you guys have already said so many great things about this record and stolen most of my notes, so I don't really have that much to add. I'll say this like, okay, I don't think it's a perfect album. So City of Love and Hearts, they're just sort of generic songs. And hold on has always bugged me. It's like the one yes single that just sounds like it's generic AOR rock for the most part, you know, it's the opposite of it can happen in owner Of a Lonely Heart. But even though you talked a lot about Owner of a Lonely Heart, I still have to say something about it as well, because this, of course, is the first yes song I ever knew. Just like you. It was everywhere. On MTV in particular. And we can't do this episode without at least some kind of. Maybe we have to actually have like, a psychological therapy session about the video for Owner of a Lonely Heart.

[Jeff Blair]

That's right. I forgot we talked about it, but it was on our. It was on an exclusive content episode.

[Brad Birzer]

It was on our exclusive content episode about, like, really memorable music videos. And so I guess I'll reprise a little bit of what I said there, but, boy, this is the. This is the place to do it. Okay. Owner of a Lonely Heart. There are two versions of that. That video. One of them, like, the full length version starts with, like, the band just playing it, like, you know, in a studio or something like that. And then John Anderson says, wait, wait, wait, wait, stop, stop. Maybe there's a better way of putting this. And then, like, he cuts to. This is such a John Anderson idea. There's like a bird sailing in the horizon and all that's like the ending, the ending line that he sings. And then it cuts to the most night nightmarish thing I've ever seen in my life. It's like. It's Kafka. It's Kafka with body. Okay, so, like, it's just an average guy just walking the street. And then, like, you know, men in hats and coats suddenly grab them off the street. Take him into the, you know, the justice system. It's like the trial. Joseph K. He's Joseph K. And then all of a sudden, he's, like, getting, like, flashing back to, like, horrifying images of himself covered in bugs, spiders, tarantulas crawling on his hand. There's his snake choking him to death in the shower. As dreams. You got to understand, I'm like 8, 9 years old, and I am seeing this, and I am having my fragile eggshell mind slowly cracked by the horrifying imagery of this thing. And by the way, talk about something you could not do. It ends with him jumping off the roof of a building, all right? And then he turns into a.

[Jeff Blair]

Doesn't die.

[Brad Birzer]

That's not what happens in real life when you do that, my friend. That's the problem. You do not turn into a bird and sail away. But again, there were so many wonderful moments in that video. Do you notice the synchronicity of, like, the guitar solo, which you already Pointed out sounds like it's like metal, like he's squealing off sparks, that metallic sound. Well, and then all of a sudden in the video, he's in the. He's somehow in a factory and there's, like buzz saws and there's sparks shooting out of it. So the visual, you know, the. The connection between the visual imagery and the actual music you're hearing is perfect. It's one of the greatest music videos of all time. But it's also one of the most disturbing ones.

[Scott Bertram]

Owner of a lonely heart Owner of a lonely heart Much better than Owner of a broken heart Owner of a lonely heart Owner of a lonely heart Owner of a lonely heart Much better than you Owner of a broken heart.

[Brad Birzer]

Other than that, I really don't want to repeat what you guys said. Our song, I think, is probably the most underrated track on the record, just because it hides, as you pointed out, on the back half of the record. And it can happen. It's just an amazing tune that you basically covered perfectly. So I've got nothing to add except to say that, like, this is. It's interesting to contemplate how and why this is so different than everything they had done up until now, despite including a lot of the same personnel. And it's because they lost Steve Howe. I've got to think that what kept yes in that sort of format, even though Steve Howe himself went on to do, like, you know, Asia and stuff like that, which doesn't sound very. Yes. Like, when these people were all together, they were maybe locked into a format that they weren't inclined to change because it was working for them. And then it was only once they went their separate ways that they were saying, well, we've got to start all over again and reboot it from scratch. And that's how you get 90125. And it worked beautifully on this one record. But I, you know, the question is, is it just a question of severely diminishing returns for the rest of the Dec.

[Scott Bertram]

One down, one to go to another town One more show downtown you're giving away but you never came back no phone to take your place do you know what I mean? We had the same intrigue as the Garden King just.

[Brad Birzer]

Now. I know that nobody has an opinion about 9012 live the solos album. Brad, have you heard this thing? This is like the weird live album they released.

[Christian Schneider]

I actually love it at the end. I love it. I am.

[Brad Birzer]

There you go.

[Christian Schneider]

There you go. I didn't bring it in today when it came Out, I thought was fantastic back in what, 1985, when it came out. 1984.

[Jeff Blair]

1985.

[Christian Schneider]

I really liked it. I love the solos. I still actually go back to it quite often.

[Brad Birzer]

Whitefish is really good, I'll give you that. Right.

[Christian Schneider]

Oh, I love Sully. Was it Sully's beard? And I mean, I just. I think the whole thing is great. And you know, I'm thinking about your question, Jeff, because I assume we'll get into this with Big Generator too. But I really do have to give a lot of credit. I think it's just the mix. Mixing of Raven and Horn. I. I think that they just. It was a masterful moment with 90125. I just. I think they did something great and I. I would love. I know it's circulating out there. I've never been able to find it, but. Cinema was originally the opening to a 20 minute song called Time that Raymond wrote. But they obviously didn't record except for just a demo. But I. I've never heard it. I've always. It's. To me, it's the mystery yes song out there that I would love, love to have a copy of. Yeah.

[Brad Birzer]

I mean, I have to then ask myself, well, what went wrong? You know, what's. This is the question that you ventured already in the comparison between 90125 and it's belated follow up Big Generator. And I guess I'm going to start with the delay again. Another three year gap and this time for no reason. Band is intact. It's the same personnel as before. Trevor Horn is back producing again. So like they tour all throughout 1984 and then 1985 and then 1986 and 95 and 86 they're going to record and then finally comes out in 1987. The three years of downtime. To me, you know, it suggests first of all that you're running low on ideas for one thing, and so you have to take more time. But even then they walked into the studio and they didn't have anything really written for this. So I'm just, you know, the disappointment of this record, I have to say, just coming right out of the gate and saying, I find almost nothing on it of note. Even though it's not awful, it is generic. And that is the. That's the worst thing you could ever say about yes. Even when yes was TOR motto ing it out. They were not generic, they were really interesting. Even if they were failing, this is a failure precisely because there's nothing about it whatsoever that is interesting. And that's, you know, I don't think I'm out on an island when I tell you that opinion. What do you guys think?

[Scott Bertram]

Moving to the right Big Generator.

[Christian Schneider]

I was living in Europe at the time when it came out. I spent my sophomore year of college at the University of Innsbruck in Austria. It was a program through Notre Dame where I did my undergrad. And a friend of mine went to the army base in Germany, one of the army bases in Germany, and picked up a copy of Big Generator for me and brought it back. And also I got hold you'd Fire by Rush at the same time. And I remember being utterly blown away by hold you'd Fire and especially the bass work on it. And I remember being utterly disappointed with Big Generator. I mean, to the point where I wanted to cry. I thought it was so bad. I do like one song on it. I like Shoot High, Aim Low, but I think that's the only one.

[Scott Bertram]

Underneath the skin a feeling, a breakdown where we sat for hours on the crimson sand Exchanges in the currency of humans bought and sold and the leaders seem to lose control shall we lose ourselves for a reason? Shall we burn ourselves for the answer? Look out. Shake up, break.

[Christian Schneider]

And yet it's funny, I don't remember which of you mentioned Big Generator in an email sometime when we were getting ready for this, but I've had that stupid tune Big Generator running in my head as ear candy, as an earworm for the last day or two. It just keeps popping up. And I don't even like the song, but it's stuck in my head right now. But, yeah, I. The. The album cover is terrible. The music was bad. I just. It's. And I can't stand that last song. Holy Lamb. I think that's got to be the worst yes.

[Brad Birzer]

On the box set. Would you believe it, man? I mean, I don't know what John Aniston was thinking on that, by the way. I've never quite forgiven. I realized that I blamed John Anderson for the longest time for the song Love Will Find a Way, which has one of the worst lyrics in 80s history there, which is Anderson singing I eat at Shez New. That would be. Yeah, I don't. I don't even know if it's a trendy restaurant or it's just something about his own spiritual place and in mind, but. Oh, God, it's is. It's not because I. I blamed him. Trevor Raven wrote that song. And. And Trevor, boy, you just, you know, you really let me down with that. Shoot high Amlo. As you Pointed out is the only thing here that has ever stood out to me. And the rest of it is not a thing offensive. It's just completely forgettable.

[Scott Bertram]

I eat at Shif, you want to to.

[Brad Birzer]

And I've listened to it maybe four or five times my entire life. It was the moment where I was just like, okay, what happened to this group? I guess this is where I'm going to check out. As it turns out, I was wrong to check out that early. They do a lot more interesting work that we'll talk about in a moment. But this is really kind of, I'd say the. The fracture point for the band. Scott.

[Jeff Blair]

I think it's pretty offensive. I mean, I think it's awful. This is 83 to 87 and music changes a ton in that time period. I mean you can kind of look to Genesis. Even going from the self titled to Invisible Touch would have been 86, which is even earlier than this. Big generators later than Invisible Touch. There's a lot of changes, but man, it just sounds horrible. It's so overproduced. Nothing lands. It's sound sounds like it could have been produced by any band in Los Angeles. Literally any band in Los Angeles. Big generator, that title track is. It sounds like an attempt to sort of merge owner of Lonely Heart and leave it from the last album and getting the worst of each of those songs. Almost like Love to me sounds like a late night tv TV theme. It starts with that kind of rolling Motown drum beat. Then, hey, there's a. Let's introduce the guitar and bass. And here's the organ slowly entering. It's just so overly mannered, you know, Trevor. Not Trevor, Raven. Trevor Horn got pissed off, left in the middle of recording. So he's not involved in the final mixes of any of this stuff. There were fights between Rayban and Horn and Rayban and Anderson about what the songwriting was going to look like. Like, as Jeff said, they kind of never had anything of value to bring to the table when it comes to. When it came to the songwriting here.

[Brad Birzer]

And they had four years like what's wrong?

[Jeff Blair]

And, and, and so this is. I think it's, you know, I think it's too much Raven. I think it's too much production. There's reverb just all over the place. The first track of the album, Rhythm of Love is just slathered in. In reverb. And so I think, I think it's awful. I. I think it's a truly bad album. Although I can confirm that Bread literally is holding a cop. He does own a copy of Big Generator. I can confirm that he's holding it right here. So someone does still have a cop.

[Scott Bertram]

Morning, Day, Dream, Midnight.

[Brad Birzer]

I'm surprised you didn't. You didn't throw yours away long ago like I did.

[Christian Schneider]

I'm a. I've got everything. I even have some weird, weird stuff like. Like yes on air, which was a. A concert that they recorded on the radio for the Big Generator tour, which actually, if you listen to some of the Big Generator tour live, not. Not the songs from Big Generator, but from the tour, the tour actually sounded pretty good over. Especially when they're doing the 90125 songs. They sound great live.

[Brad Birzer]

Yeah. And actually some of that's actually available on the the Word Is Live boxed set, which is various live tracks from their. From their periods of their career. You know who else didn't like Big Jenner was John Anderson. And, you know, he was kind of. You mentioned that he was fighting with Trevor Raven in the studio about the directions of these songs. And he basically wasn't really thrilled with, you know, the sort of the poppy, real. Basically, basically generic pop. So he again leaves yes. And it's right after March of 1988 and he goes and joins a couple of guys that he's friendly with. One of them happens to be called Bill Bruford. Another one is Rick Wakeman and oh, hey, here it's Steve Howe. So basically it's yes, without Chris Squire and Alan White and Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman and Howe is an album I will admit I've listened to all of three times. Because if you thought this was gonn sound like, you know, 1970s. Yes. Hey, it's just back. Back to Close to The Edge Part 2. No, my friends, no, it does not sound like that at all. It is. Again, I will not say it is an atrocious album. I do kind of like that Long Brother of Mine suite. I think that's a pretty decent track, but it's just something about the late 80s that was very unkind to this ban.

[Scott Bertram]

Long lost brother of mine Living my life in the big dream Long lost brother of mine Walking away from illusion Long lost brother of mine Seeing my life for the first time.

[Jeff Blair]

The. The last song, actually, let's pretend I gave it a spin for the first time last night. Obviously not being a yes completist like Brad. That last song there is actually very nice, very gentle. It's a very good song. I was surprised, really surprised by how completely the sound of the band, which again, Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman. That's. Yes. How completely they had assimilated to the sound of the tie times. I mean, it sounds. There's no distance between. Well, there is some distance between this and Big Generator, because that sounds like garbage. But it's very much of the late 80s. It very much sounds like Union, which I don't think is a very. Well, you know, produced up. Doesn't sound good. It doesn't sound. They're not trying to sound like they did. They just sound like they're of the times. I was very surprised that guys who are so. So tightly tethered to yes and the yes sound would allow an album like this to sound the way it does. It's just very surprised by that.

[Brad Birzer]

I mean, Brett.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, I just. It's so depressing now, right? We had Big Generator and then we've got Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman and Howe again. Some of the stuff they did live. The. The Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman. How an evening of yes music. Yeah, they're close to the Edge version sounds pretty good. I think Tony Levin on bass is fantastic. I like Levin quite a bit. But this album, it just does nothing for me. And going back and listening to it, it just sounds so tinny. And I think Scott's absolutely right. The production's terrible and there are some good things. Brother of Mine has some nice lines to it, I think. Birthright, actually, of all the songs on the album, I think it's.

[Brad Birzer]

It's probably the strongest. That's a very John Anderson Y1.

[Christian Schneider]

It is, and I feel it.

[Brad Birzer]

And I don't mind that, actually.

[Christian Schneider]

I feel, feel. I feel for the Aborigines that were killed in a nuclear blast. I think that's terrible. And I think it's a good, Good theme for a song. But, you know, Tikwa, or however you say it. I mean, my gosh, it's just. It's horrible. It's. It's as bad as anything on Big Generator, and it's embarrassing.

[Brad Birzer]

Okay, so Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman, Howe. That was clearly not making it. Neither was yes. West is what they would start to become. Which is the same. The Trevor Rabin, you know. Yes. Nucleus, which is a Rabin, Squire and Alan White, Tony K. They weren't really making it after all with Big Generator either. So somebody had the brilliant idea to take two bad flavors and combine them in the hopes that somehow taking the taste of garbage and the taste of urine would somehow result in, like, you know, ice cream.

[Christian Schneider]

I haven't had lunch yet.

[Brad Birzer]

I'm Sorry, my friend.

[Jeff Blair]

And.

[Brad Birzer]

And this results, unfortunately for all, all concerned, this results in 1991's union, which most fans. I'll forever remember the day I first realized that most fans refer to it as Onion, which is. It's about as fun as sinking your teeth into a big juicy onion. Union, the album that 1991 you said, Scott. It sounded late 80s. Well, it's early 90s, but it's the same basic idea. And this thing, first of all, it's regrettably long. It's like 70 minutes long.

[Jeff Blair]

Yes, but.

[Brad Birzer]

But it's also just regrettably terrible. I find the only thing on this entire record that I like is the Steve how guitar instrumental When Nobody.

[Christian Schneider]

Masquerade.

[Scott Bertram]

Yeah, yeah, Masquerade.

[Brad Birzer]

It's a nice song. I think he got nominated for a Grammy for it too, or something like that. It's the only thing on this record that I have even a second's worth of time for. I would have waited forever. That was a single that offends me worse than anything on Big Generator. Man, I hate it so much. I don't know if you guys think, you know, there's something to defend on this record, but I, I've. I actually, I listened to this record for a long time, which I'm now filled with regret about how many listens I've given to Union. There's nothing here for you folks.

[Jeff Blair]

I. What I will say is, I think by a hair, Union's a better album than Big Generator. It's a very low bar, but I would rather, rather listen to Union than Big Generator. That doesn't mean it's very good at all. There are so many problems. Half of these tracks are. Involve edits and overdubs where how is being replaced by other guitar players and Wakeman's being replaced by other organ players. And half the songs are brought by the Raven crew, as Jeff explained. The half. Other half from the Anderson, Wakeman, how and Bruford Group. And sometimes Anderson's singing on some of the Raven stuff and they try to like, mingle and it's. It's a mess. The production doesn't help anything at all. I think that the content itself is not very good. The songs themselves aren't very great. They didn't have a lot to work with when they actually got to the studios. Even I. I will say if I'm going to say something nice about any track, I think think Miracle of Life is not bad. That's a Raven song that he wrote with an outside writer. And so from the. From The Raven tracks, I would take Miracle of Life, and from the Anderson tracks, I think it's the very next song. Silent Talking is not horrible. And that's one from the Anderson and Howe side of things. It's a, It's a bad record, but I would still. I'm. I'd still rather listen to at least, I don't know, all 65 minutes, but at least parts. Half of Union I'd rather listen to than all of Big Generator, let's put it that way.

[Scott Bertram]

It doesn't rain. It doesn't rain. It doesn't rain. True.

[Brad Birzer]

I'm Brad. Are you about to reveal that this is your favorite?

[Christian Schneider]

No, I'm pretty much in total agreement with both of you on this. I do think Miracle of Life and Silent Talking could have been great songs if they had had some different production and maybe in a different sett. Strangely enough, my favorite song on the album, and I would agree, I think it's a terrible album, but my favorite song is the Tony Levin, Bill Bruford little snippet called Evensong, where they just do their bass and drums. That's kind of a cool little song, but otherwise, I, I just, I think what a waste of great talent. Just so terrible. And to even go through the notes. Yeah, it's, it's confusing just to look who's producing what, who's playing on what.

[Jeff Blair]

Right.

[Christian Schneider]

I, I, if it's. Maybe this is apocryphal, but supposedly Rick Wakeman has never made it through the whole album. He. He started listening to it and threw it out of his limo at one point. So I, I just. Yeah, and he's the one who called it Onion for the first time. So that's where that comes from. Yeah, yeah, it's a. But again, I mean, this is one of those albums where the Live Union Live when these guys played is pretty fascinating. They do some good stuff. They're again, not these songs. They hardly played anything from the album, but the songs that they played, if you can kind of handle Raven and how playing Attack at each other, you know, they're very different styles on each of the songs, but I think the Union Live tour was pretty good.

[Jeff Blair]

And again, for the, for the record company who had this idea, it was a success album sold. Yeah, it was. The big generator was 15. Number 15. And I think the same thing for Union was number 15. So that's not an insignificant amount of units moved by someone having the idea of putting all parts of yes together on a single album, even if the actual material was subpar so this is.

[Brad Birzer]

This is what happens when you bow to Mammon, right? They obviously the. Yet the.

[Christian Schneider]

The yes.

[Brad Birzer]

Union lineup is just not gonna last. There's way too many people or way too many egos. It was. It was kind of strange. And so like, record label now. And this is. This is where you get the sense of like, are yes. Really the masters of their own fate at this point? Okay, you know what? We're going back to the 90125 lineup. That's the lineup that sold the most copies. And so we want some more of that hot, hot, big generator action. And it results, surprisingly, in an album that I think is really underrated. This is 1994's talk. This is, you know, Raven White, Squire K. That lineup. Nobody talks about Talk. Nobody remembers this record. It's got one of the worst cover covers I've ever seen. It's just like a. It's like a child crayon talk on it. Yeah, and crayon. I don't get that. But I like this record. I think it's got some really fine moments. I really think the Calling is a fine song. And I am waiting I like as well. And I. I do like the big suite at the end. The endless dream suite. I just think this record shocked me when I just said, okay, well, there's nothing that Raven Yes. Is ever going to do that's going to interest me even in this slightest. And he. For the last time, I'll say. Because the next one's not so great at all. But this one is. Is one of the later period yes Albums that people sleep on and. And ought to give it a try. It's not 90125, but I think it's. It's pretty decent.

[Scott Bertram]

Like a longtime friend we see it like turn right Asking for the fire in my heart again Calling Alpha miracle In the presence of who you are.

[Christian Schneider]

I agree. I was actually. I'll never forget when I heard the Calling for the first time. I was visiting my brother in Boise, Idaho, and I'd just gotten out of mass, and of course I had the local AR station on in the car, and suddenly I heard John Anderson's voice and I thought, wow, this sounds really good. And that was my introduction to Talk. And I've actually, you know, this is the 30th anniversary of Talk, and I proudly own that album. I love it. I actually love Endless Dream, the long song at the end. In fact, I'm gonna. I'm gonna rank it as one of my top five of this era. I just, I think Endless Dream is a fantastic, you know, it's nice to see a long form Trevor Rabino John Anderson song. So it's great. It's. It's not, it's not what we would have gotten maybe on 90125, but I think it's probably pretty close.

[Brad Birzer]

Would you give this one a try, Scott?

[Jeff Blair]

No.

[Christian Schneider]

My.

[Jeff Blair]

Yes listening stopped with Union.

[Christian Schneider]

Oh, that's so depressing.

[Jeff Blair]

Maybe I'll try to extend it in the future to get to, to at least talk. But yeah, my, my thoughts essentially end here.

[Brad Birzer]

Oh no, Scott. So what are you going to do for the next two hours? Is Brad and I discuss the latter era of Yes's career? No, I don't, I don't think that's fair and I think it's fair to say that like they put out a lot more albums and I actually, I, I have opinions on nearly every one of these records, but I don't really think, you know, I, I think it's fair to say that what happens next is kind of sets the course for yes into the future and I really need to discuss the keys to Ascension. But then beyond that, we can take a pick and choose approach. And since Scott knows nothing about this, I'm assuming, Brad, you and I can, we can have a chat. Right. What happens in 1996 is that, you know, so the Talk album for once didn't sell. Maybe it was that horrible cover. I think the songs are really good, honestly. But it was also. This is the middle 90s. Grunge has now overtaken all the hair metal and the pop stuff from the 80s. This couldn't be further removed from the charts.

[Jeff Blair]

Yeah, that's for sure.

[Brad Birzer]

Relevant, right? Yeah. And so I think they kind of made a decision to say, listen, we got to stop chasing hits because it's just not going to happen with us. It's not in our style book anymore. And they decided to just sort of. Why don't we reconvene the original group, which is to say the classic Euro group? We'll get Rick Wakeman, John Anderson, Chris Squire, Alan White and Steve Howe together and we'll do two things. We'll try to record some new songs and see what we come up with. And we'll also play this kind of reunion show. And I think they played it in San Luis Obispo in California.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, that's right.

[Brad Birzer]

We'll, we'll bring out all the old hits, we'll bring out some, some chestnuts that people haven't heard yet or haven't heard in a long time. And the result is an album called Keys to Ascension. There are two records. There's keys to Ascension 1 and keys to Ascension 2. And they're kind of fascinating and forgotten, but they should have more attention paid to them. The live set is actually quite good, in my opinion. It's split over the two records. Close to the Edge doesn't quite work for some reason. I feel like Alan White may have lost a step or something like that. It doesn't play the same way it used to, but, boy, hearing them go through Onward and Turn of the Century in America, they rip off America.

[Jeff Blair]

America.

[Christian Schneider]

That's the best version of America.

[Brad Birzer]

I think they hadn't played that song in, like, you know, since 1971. And they rattle it off like they've had it in their repertoire every day. So it's just such a joy to listen to them do it.

[Scott Bertram]

Laughing on the bus Playing games with the faces she said the man in the Gabriel I said be careful Is bow tie is really a car Although I knew she was sleeping Empty and aching and I don't know why Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike they all come to look for.

[Brad Birzer]

I was wondering if you had any opinion on the studio sauce, because I actually think the studio tracks, particularly on Keys to Ascension Part 2, are really good. I think Rick Wakeman was angry that it wasn't released as an album on its own, that it was like, you know, sort of folded into this Lost Leader concert thing. He's like, that album deserved to stand on its own as a record. And I think there are songs on there like Mind Drive. It's a really big, long one. But I think it also works. Works in a very different way than an earlier yes did. But as the sound of more mature people doing a sort of a slower version of the yes style, which still has a lot of the same. Same tricks. I think it's a real success. What about you?

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, I like. On keys to Ascension 1. I like that. That is.

[Brad Birzer]

That. That is.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah. I think that's a good. I don't think it's great. I think it's a good song. I really like Mind Drive, and I got to see them play that live and they did a great job because they. They included. Oh, my gosh, I'm dropping the name right now. They included it. They start off with mine, Drive, and then they went to the. The track from Fragile that they hardly ever played live.

[Brad Birzer]

South side of the Sky.

[Christian Schneider]

South side of the sky. And then they go back into Mind Drive. And it was fun. And you could tell that the guys were Rick Wakeman and Steve Howell were kind of chasing each other and just having a good time playing that. So, yeah, that, that was great. Footprints, I think is pretty good. Children of the Light I think is pretty good. Sign language. Yeah. So, I mean, there's nothing on Keys to Ascension that I don't like. I like it all, but I, I probably preferred the live stuff to the studio stuff and I don't go back to it very often.

[Scott Bertram]

Julie, sick and tired of her job Know the reasons lately she took it out and got my L Her soul to hell and let the baby die Julie's child was born without a need or a reason for being Gave us a message from a real life.

[Brad Birzer]

There would be one more Trevor Raven era yes album. But I really, first of all, Scott, I know you haven't listened to Open your Eyes and people, I'm going to advise you to not listen to open your eyes either. I would say instead, close your ears to this album. Do not open your eyes to.

[Jeff Blair]

That would have been a great three word review. Like, you know, like the review of Sharks Sandwich from Spinal Tap. Your review of Open your eyes is Close your ears, your ears.

[Brad Birzer]

Close your ears. I don't like it and I hope I'm not, you know, profaning it to you, Brad, but I, I suspect that you don't have a ton of enthusiasm for this one.

[Christian Schneider]

I, I dislike it as much as I dislike Big Generator I never got. I tried so hard to like it. And especially coming off Keys of Ascent, I thought, my gosh, yes is really on a roll here. And then I found open your eyes was just really disappointing.

[Brad Birzer]

Yeah, I mean, for me, the relationship for me was to talk. I was like, well, hey, talk. This is actually a good Raven like Yes album. I like this. Let's see what else they do. No, this is the reason this is. It was the end. And I think at that point we should probably just sort of say there's several albums they've released since then. But you can't talk about them all because I, I, I honestly have nothing intelligent to say about the like Ladder, you know, or whatever the ones that they've done recently after most of these folks have died. I figured instead it might make sense for us to talk about some of the later era yes albums that do stand out for us. And I think the one that comes next that we might want to say something about is Magnification, which is the late 90s. And it's yes with an Orchestra is the gimmick. And, boy, this again. This is the late period band, so they're older and slower. It doesn't have the dynamism and the excitement of early. Yes. Nervous energy of early. Yes. But at the end of the day, I think it's actually a very pretty album. And in the presence of which is the big. Sort of not quite the concluding suite, but the penultimate song on our record. That's a magnificent achievement for latter era. Yes. And the strings actually are integrated really beautifully into the entire record.

[Scott Bertram]

You finally hit the ground Turn around and remember that now you're standing tall Standing on sacred ground Standing on sacred ground.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, Jeff, I. I liked it. It's 2001, so. Right.

[Brad Birzer]

2001. Okay.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah. Yeah. September 2001 of all. Of all times to be released. But, yeah, it's. I. I think it's very good. I wouldn't put it as one of my favorite yes albums, but I enjoy it and I go back to it. I like. I have the Magnification Tour on DVD that I enjoy watching. I think, especially on that album, though, for Magnification, not the live album, but the actual studio album. I think that the opening two songs that blend into one another, Magnification and spirit of Survival, I. I think that's actually one of my favorite moments in any yes music. I love the transition from the one song to the other. And Anderson's voice with the strings just sounds perfect. So. Yeah. I mean, it's so much better than Open your eyes. They're not even in the same realm.

[Jeff Blair]

Yeah.

[Christian Schneider]

And I think Magnification's great.

[Scott Bertram]

Speak to me clearly you're the magnet to my soul I get so distracted Trying to reason with it all like the people I'm clinging to the edge of every world Spinning in creation so great and that my feelings really show Teach me to teach me how the key unlocks the door as we open, we surrender holding hands with many more There's a feeling that's coming There's a feeling so real to justify, to magnify, to realize that.

[Brad Birzer]

And actually, I think their next album is even better than that. Although there's a really weird story behind this one. This one's the last yes album that I really want to discuss in detail. But I actually do want to take some time to talk about Fly From Here, which is the strangest thing. First of all, this is an album that has now been released twice.

[Christian Schneider]

Right.

[Brad Birzer]

It's been done two times. The second time is actually the better time. But what the basic point of it is. Is that Rick Wakeman is out of the ban. His son, I think Oliver Wakeman was actually playing with them at that point. So talk about this.

[Jeff Blair]

Yes.

[Brad Birzer]

It's turning into a family affair at this point. The decision was made to get Trevor Horne back into the band with Jeff Downs. I think the idea was that they were working on stuff that was from the Drama era that had never been released. There were songs they played on that tour, like We Can Fly From Here and stuff like that that were pretty good. Then we have some hissy tapes of them. I think one of them's available on the Word is Live set, but they weren't fully fleshed out. That's when they. They didn't make it onto the Drama album itself. They decided to, like, exhume some of those old ideas and flesh them out. And then they said, okay, well, you know, Jeff Downs actually helped write a lot of this stuff. Why don't we get him into the. Into the group to play it? And what you're left with is an album that actually sounds like the sequel to Drama that I always wanted my entire life. And that is kind of a miracle, especially coming. Like, I don't even remember when this was released. It would have been like 2011 or 12 or something like that. So this is really, really late. Period. Yes. But folks, I. I strongly recommend that you listen to Fly From Here and also make it a point to listen to the, quote, return Trip, because here's where things get wacky. They originally released it with a different lead vocalist, some guy kid Benoit David or something like that, who sort of sounds like John Anderson, sort of sounds like Trevor Horn, but not really. And he's not my favorite vocalist. This is like they fired John Anderson again. I don't even. I think he had like a collapsed lung. And they're like, sorry, we're going to tour without you. Kind of a business like decision to make, right? But instead, like 10 years later or something like that, and five years later, they just said, hey, Trevor Horn, since you wrote this music, why don't you come out of singing retirement and just sing it all over again? And it's the revamped version of the record which sounds like drama Part 2. Fly from here has been expanded into a giant suite. There's some more of these new wavy songs that I like a lot, like the man Daniel always wanted me to be.

[Christian Schneider]

Right?

[Brad Birzer]

And it doesn't sound like an album from this era. Like, I guess maybe because they'd already waited out all the trends and all the Pop stuff. And now they're just making music for their fans. I really like this record a lot and it is for people saying, boy, it's a shame they never made anything else like drama. Well, they did and it. It just took them 20 something years to get to it.

[Scott Bertram]

Time that you've lost when you wake up I see you there on display like some final water of no return Taking the step from here.

[Christian Schneider]

And we.

[Scott Bertram]

Can fly from here and we can die from here and we can fly from here Into a sky so clearly.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah. And you can feel Trevor Horn not only on that return trip on. Obviously his voice is great, but sounds good. You can feel his production throughout the whole album. And I just. I think it's a great album and I. I love the return trip because not only do I love Trevor Horn's voice, but I think some of the songs, like the final song, into the Storm, I. I think it's so much better than it was on the original album. And I. I think that's a great song. So Fly from here into the Storm. These are really great songs. So, yeah, I'm with you, Jeff. I think it's a great album. And then. Well, I mean, some of the others, though, like Heaven and Earth, I think is a weak album after that.

[Brad Birzer]

I mean, this. We're getting to the point, unfortunately, where band members are aging and starting to pass away.

[Christian Schneider]

Right.

[Brad Birzer]

I mean, I think Chris Squire, this is the last album he plays on, I believe. And he was already, you know, he had cancer and so he's already like, you know, pretty ill at the time. And then Alan White as passed away since then too. John Anderson isn't with the group anymore. I think he's off on his own singing these days. I'm sure, like at his concerts he plays a ton of yes songs, but, you know, he's got his own solo career now. So yes, now is basically just whatever Steve Howell feels like doing. Which means it doesn't quite feel like yes to me anymore. And, you know, that's why I. I don't think these albums are particularly good anyways. But in a real sense, it feels like you've lost the core of the band at this final late date, after all the personnel changes, this is the People just had to start dying for yes music to stop sounding like it was truly yes music. But I don't have a lot of good things to say about these last three records.

[Christian Schneider]

Well, and then of course, we've got that conflict again because Anderson was playing with Raven and Wakeman and so they were calling themselves yes, but then you have Steve Howe who owns the actual yes trademark, and it was getting very, very confusing. But I agree, I've got all the albums, I've listened to them. I don't love them. From Heaven and Earth really up to this point. I just think that the albums are, they've got some great playing on them, but they don't hold together and they don't really capture my imagination. I think Fly from here Return Trip was really the last album that really grabbed me. That and I love, I don't know if you had a chance to see either of you guys saw the Anderson, Raymond Wakeman Live at the Apollo, but that's, that's really, really great. It's a great Blu Ray.

[Brad Birzer]

Are they playing like, like, like 90125 kind of songs or are they playing like yes songs?

[Christian Schneider]

Oh, they were, they were doing both. So I mean it's, it's really great. Raven sounds fantastic on those and the production quality of ARW is just amazing. So yeah, you know, I, I, I don't know who really yes is at this point, but I, I, I like that version quite a bit. I'm sorry I didn't see it live.

[Brad Birzer]

Well, I think that brings us to the end, Scott, of a long career and a worthy one. You know, just because as I said, these people have been making music since 1969. It's no shame that, like now that half of them are deceased, it's not quite what it was anymore. It was a fantastic run and that's why I'm really glad that we got to do them on this show.

[Jeff Blair]

And I just want to say I agree with every single thing you guys said. Post Talk, totally right, I'm sure.

[Brad Birzer]

Thank you.

[Jeff Blair]

I rarely get a chance to say that about Jeff's opinions, but, but this time I just think this time I have it down. That brings us to the portion of the show where we identify the two albums you should own the five tracks you need to hear from this. The, the second portion of Yes's career, Relayer all the way to you, Union, or Pass there. If you want. Two albums, five songs. Our guest Brad Berser has the floor first. Brad.

[Christian Schneider]

Yeah, I don't think these are going to be surprising to anyone. My, my two albums would be Drama and 90125. And I think there are other great albums in this. Again, I, I would recommend something like Magnification or Fly From Here or Talk, but I think we're really focusing on that time period from Relayer to Union I would say drama, 90125 and then my five songs. I'm going to cheat just a little bit on this, but my five songs would be Gates of Delirium, Silent Wings of Freedom, Machine, Messiah. And here's where I'm cheating. I would put Cinema and leave it as one song. And then Endless Dream from Talk. Those are my five. But again, you guys, this has just been great. And you're right, Jeff, I love the way you put it. What a run. Even if some of their leaders albums haven't been that great, it's just an amazing run over 50 years now. What coming up on. Yeah, more than that.

[Jeff Blair]

55. This is all really, again, for the most part, really accessible, really melodic, really good music. Very happy. Had the opportunity, the excuse to dig deep into the catalog over the years. My two. My two albums from this particular section are back to back. I'm recommending Going for the One and I'm the Tormado fan, so go listen to it with an open mind. Have some fun. Along with yes songs from this era. Going for the One. Jeff's so right about that. Opening steel guitar peel from. From. From how it's magnificent. Parallels from that same album. Album Love Wakeman's Church Organ on that release. Release from Tormato. Fantastic song. Tempest Fugit, the closing track from Drama and Then It Can Happen. Just a brilliantly written and arranged song. On 90125. It was actually kind of surprisingly easy for me to pick those five. I like a lot of them, but those just locked into place. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. The. Those are my songs. Jeff, over to you.

[Brad Birzer]

Of course. It was incredibly difficult for me to pick my five. And I basically settled on the same approach that I did last time, which is I'm going to ensure maximum spread. The two albums you need to have are Going for the One and Drama. And so I'm therefore not going to mention any of the songs from those albums. Oh, of course. God, they're all great. Instead I'll mention songs from those. The other albums. So I'll say from Gates of Delirium, my five songs. Or rather from Relayer, my five songs. I'll say Soundchaser is the one I would choose from that. From Tormado, I would say Onward. I still think it's the best single song that Chris Squire ever wrote from 90125. Well, I mean, I'm not going to not pick Owner of a Lonely Heart and I'm also not going to pick it can't Happen. I have to choose those. They're just essentially great early 80s sort of new wave Prague fusion songs. And then I guess from the later era of their career, the stuff that Scott still hasn't listened to yet. I'm going to pick Fly From Here, which is the giant suite that is the centerpiece of the Fly for Here album. I'll just say please listen to the return trip version with Trevor Horn is singing the vocals instead. And yeah, it just sounds, it sounds just like a sequel to an album that I loved and I was really disappointed I didn't get a sequel to. And since I'm the host, I guess I'll cheat and I'll say I'm gonna pick one song, a sixth song, a bonus track. And it is from Drama. It's Tempest Fugit. I love that song so much. A lightning bolt, Greased Lightning. It's the COVID It's those panthers just racing one after another. Time flies, it's a race and of course it just ends. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Which is maybe overeager branding, but it works for me.

[Jeff Blair]

There we are, the Political Beats. Look at the second part of Yes's career, beginning at Relayer. Our thanks Our deep thanks to Brad Berser is the Wrestleman Kirk Chair in American Studies at Hillsdale College. Lyricist for the Bardic Deaths. Read his book about Neil Peart, Cultural Repercussions and other books too like In Defense of Andrew Jackson and Russell Kirk, American Conservative and Radley J. Burden on X to find yes.

[Christian Schneider]

Thank you guys so much. It's been a blast. I've really, really enjoyed doing this.

[Jeff Blair]

We just have to find a Prague band to have our first four time guest at sometime in the future on the show. Jeff this is one that we're not. A very highly requested episode that we can mark off. We deliver for the people when they ask. That's the Political Beats.

[Brad Birzer]

Way complete pleasure too.

[Jeff Blair]

Jeff on x at Esoteric CD. I'm there. Scott Bertram remember. Join us [e-mail] Politicalbeats support the show, help it stay ad free, entry level, mid level and then our upper level. Best friends early access higher audio quality monthly exclusive content stuff, remastered shows, playlists, more all of [e-mail] subscribe to the Feed for new episodes where you find the show or go to nationalreview.com, click on the podcast tab to find us there. We're on Facebook. You can join the conversation on x as well. OTCbeats this has been a presentation of National Review. This is political beats it.