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Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Why Starmer will survive: The Attorney General on human rights, small boats, and his ‘dogged’ friend the Prime Minister
00:35:52
The Attorney General, Lord Richard Hermer KC.
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Lord Richard Hermer
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Nick (Interviewer)
Seeking, pushing, optimizing, creating, learning, discovering.
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Lord Richard Hermer
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Nick (Interviewer)
Bryson Tiller presents the Neo Trap Soul Tour live across North America with special guests Majid Jordan, Ty Dolla Sign and Austin Mills in select cities. Get Tickets now@livenation.com hello, welcome to Political Thinking. He's a liberal lefty lawyer from North London who cares more about the human rights of illegal migrants and criminals than the rights of ordinary people. That is what the critics sometimes say of Keir Starmer. They also say it of my guest on Political Thinking this week, the Attorney General, Lord Hermer. Richard Hermer is Starmer's friend, his ally and a colleague. For many years, when both were working barristers, he was parachuted into the House of Lords so he could become the government's top legal advisor. Lord Homer is an unapologetic champion of both international law and human rights law, which has made him the man that many on the right love to hate. He's a politician you rarely see or hear. Indeed this is his first full length broadcast interview. But his advice affects us all, whether it's on illegal migration, the war with Iran or lenient sentences handed down to teenage rapists. Lord Hermer, Richard Hermer, Attorney General, welcome to Political Thinking.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Nick, thanks so much. Real pleasure to be here.
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Nick (Interviewer)
I mentioned that you're the hate figure when I was reading in.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Nice, easy, nice, easy intro.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Well, sorry, it's going to get worse, I'm afraid. When I'm reading in, I find phrases like useful idiot for Britain's enemies, the least patriotic man ever in capital letters to hold high office, arrogant, progressive fool. I mean, these are really unpleasant things. When you read them, when you hear them, do they make you down? Do they make you angry or do they make you defiant? Sod them, I'll show em.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, kind of neither really, Nick. I kind of deal with them in two ways. First, on a personal level, I'm 57 years of age. I'm not particularly bothered by newspapers that I knew were going to attack me for my cases because I saw what they had done to Keir when he was Leader of the Opposition. So I knew this was coming. Keir warned me it would come. So on a personal level, I'm untroubled by it because I Know what's behind it, which is a political attack. It is frankly a bit weird seeing your face in a newspaper. I spent my entire career trying to go under the radar. I'd never tweeted in my life. On big cases I'd go behind the back of court to avoid the cameras. So it's a bit weird. But there is a point, there is another point behind it that I do find a bit more troubling. So firstly, it's kind of an attack on an important part of our rule of law institution, which is that lawyers act for people without fear, fear or favour. You wouldn't attack you because of a source or who you happen to interview. You wouldn't attack a doctor because of the nature of their patient. And so our legal system depends upon lawyers being able to do their job. And just to finish that point, because there's another point as well. It's a part of a wider attack by certain segments of society on other kind of parts of institutions that are important in this country. Judges, the media, civil service. Finally, on this, the one bit that does trouble me is the suggestion that somehow patriotism becomes the preserve of only one particular party. So some of those criticisms suggest that I'm not patriotic. I mean, that is rubbish. I love this country, I'm deeply patriotic, I love working. In fact, the joy, the privilege of this job is day in I get to work with our extraordinary armed services and our extraordinary intelligence community. So the suggestion that there should be a tension between being a lawyer, acting for your clients in conformity of your professional duties, a tension with that and patriotism, I just don't buy it.
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Nick (Interviewer)
The other bit of the description, which was less insulting, but you may still dislike North London liberal lefty mate of Keir Starmer, that I might suggest is pretty accurate, isn't it?
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Lord Richard Hermer
No. I'm a Cardiff boy.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Come on. Oh, hold on, where do you live now?
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Lord Richard Hermer
Oh, yeah, all right, all right, fair enough. But I am Cardiff born and bred. I am the product of a state school education from Cardiff who now lives in North London. Yeah. But, you know, so do millions of people and I'm proud to live in North London. It's a great place to live. So am I a lawyer? Yeah. Am I liberal?
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Nick (Interviewer)
Yeah.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Am I a kind of a member of the elite? Well, look, as I said, I'm a state school boy from Cardiff. I'm not sure that's what you would normally identify as elites in this country. Yeah.
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Nick (Interviewer)
You're called Lord Herbert, you're the Attorney General, so that probably qualifies you.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Yeah, I can see, I can see, I can see my case gets weaker over time.
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Nick (Interviewer)
No. At least, yeah, don't challenge a lawyer when making a case. It's the mate of Keir is an interesting part of the story, isn't it, because you didn't plan to go into politics, although you're very political and have been all your life. You first met him when you joined a very famous group of barristers known as the Chambers in central London, Doughty street, with like minded lawyers. What? Who all brought together by a common cause. Really?
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Lord Richard Hermer
Yeah. So I first met Keir in March of 1996. I'd started off my career going back home to Cardiff and I made a decision after a couple of years I wanted to move to London. I came up on my first night, my first day, I remember it really well and kind of nervous up in the big city and an arm went round my shoulder and it was Kier saying, right, taking you out for dinner tonight. And that started a friendship that has lasted since that day. And it was kind of typical of his kindness and his decency and his concern for others.
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Nick (Interviewer)
If I'd said to you back in Doughty Chambers, I'd said, right, you're going to be the top legal officer in the country and your friend who put his arm around your shoulder, he's going to be Prime Minister, what would you have said back then?
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Lord Richard Hermer
I would have said it was more likely that Wales would win back to back Rugby World cup every four years.
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Nick (Interviewer)
And you have now got this job and it's one of those jobs where, as I said in the introduction, you're not very visible but you're very present making decisions. If you meet somebody goes, Attorney General, don't really understand that. You know, imagine you're in a pub or in a coffee shop and somebody says to you, what exactly is this job?
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Lord Richard Hermer
Yeah, that is actually a question I get asked all the time. So first, I don't make decisions. The job of lawyers is to advise. It's my policy making colleagues who make the decisions. It's the PM and Secretaries of State and Ministers who make the decisions.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Which incidentally is why you're not a member of Cabinet, are you? You go to it.
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Lord Richard Hermer
I attend Cabinet, I go to all the Cabinet meetings, but I am not formally because I'm there as an advisor. The core part of the job is to provide the Prime Minister and senior Ministers with advice on the kind of really kind of crunchy legal issues. And it's to work as with lawyers across government, of who We've got many thousands to try and ensure that all of government is receiving really high level legal advice. And the job of lawyers in government is to help enable government. It's to allow policies that policymakers want to achieve. It's allowing them to do that in a way that is legally effective.
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Nick (Interviewer)
I'm hearing some of your colleagues shout at the radio at this point, he says he's meant to enable policy. You were labelled in one profile in the Guardian, the Herminator, because the view was you block things, you get in the way, you're always going, oh, you know, here he comes with his legal advice, telling us what we can't do again.
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Lord Richard Hermer
So I think that's 180 degrees in the opposite direction to the truth. What good lawyers should be doing. What I try to do day in, day out, is to try and find solutions, problems, to try and enable my colleagues to land policies effectively. I mean, one of my frustrations with the last government from a legal perspective, was they had announced a whole load of policies that would then get caught up in proceedings for years and then would often be deemed to be unlawful. We've come into government determined to make a real difference and we're only going to do that if our policies land. And that's the job of lawyers, is to help and assist and to enable. It's absolutely not to block.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Let's turn to a couple of the big decisions you've had to make in recent weeks and months before we talk about your friend who's fighting for his political life and what you think he can do to try and save that political life. Iran. You must have known when you took this job that possibly the most difficult decision you would be asked to give is something around peace and war. That, after all, is what stuck. Your predecessor, Peter Goldsmith, advising Tony Blair about war in Iraq made him a public figure, made him very controversial. Were you ever in any doubt that you could give permission to the US to use bases on British soil to attack targets in Iran?
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Lord Richard Hermer
There are two things to say at the outset. The first is, I'm afraid, is quite a boring one. So there is in the Ministerial code something called the Law Officers Convention. And that means that nobody, neither a law officer nor any minister, not only can they not say what an Attorney General has advised, they're not even allowed to say whether an Attorney General has advised. That's there for a really good reason. It's kind of lawyer confidentiality. The second point to make at the outset is it's decisions about war and peace are decisions for prime ministers, they're not decisions for attorney generals.
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Nick (Interviewer)
I hear what you say about not being able to reveal the advice, and you're not the first to say it. It has to be said by people holding the job that you hold. There is a suspicion around, there was in Iraq and there is over Iran, that really what happens is attorneys are told by, by the politician what they want to hear. Be awfully helpful if you found this and then we could not have a row with the United States, we'd hide behind the law. Can you reassure people that this wasn't a legal advice driven by politics?
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Lord Richard Hermer
When I came in to this job, I convened all the lawyers in government and I stress that our job as lawyers in government is to find creative solutions. But there will be moments in which, as a lawyer, you need to speak truth to power. And I came in not only wanting all lawyers in government to do that, but to stay true to the oath I gave in my first week in office at the courts, which is to uphold the rule of law. And that means I will give my honest, unvarnished advice. Not what people will want to hear, but what my view, my opinion, my good faith opinion of the law is.
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Nick (Interviewer)
If you'd been Donald Trump's lawyer, you presumably could have advised him and told us about it that his war was illegal.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, what the Prime Minister has done in Iran is say he's only going to act in the national interest. And he calibrates the national interest by a number of different kind of indices, one of which is, is it lawful? Not least because, as Keir's explained, you can't, as Prime Minister, send troops off into battle when there is a question mark about the legality. Other kind of indices are, is there a strategy in place? What's day two look like? Indice. Three is, what's the geopolitics, how's it playing out in the rest of the world? And I've no doubt that when the Prime Minister took the decisions in the national interest in the case of Iran, he made the right decision.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Now, the other big issue you've had to deal with, where you can speak publicly about it, is the power you have to refer to the Court of Appeal if there is a feeling that a sentence has been too lenient. Yeah. And you've done that recently, haven't you, in the case of three boys found guilty of raping two girls, laughing, filming it, sharing it, and yet getting no custodial sentence. What was your reaction when you first heard about that case?
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, I wanted to know the Details. I wanted to know the details as quickly as possible so I could make a decision as quickly as possible. So the uncertainty was not hanging over those victims.
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Nick (Interviewer)
But that's a process. But at a human level, did you have the reaction that so many people had, which is what on earth has been going on here?
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Lord Richard Hermer
Yeah, well, I wanted to. I wanted to fully understand it because I had, frankly, I did have that reaction. Now, sometimes if you're making a decision and you're making what is effectively a judgment decision, whether to refer something, you can't just go on your first instincts. But my first instincts were the same as you, Nick. You've got to go and look at the actual evidence and the details and make a decision. As it happens, when I looked at the evidence and the details in this case, they confirmed my initial reaction.
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Nick (Interviewer)
A reaction of what? Horror, Shock, Surprise.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, I want to be a little careful because the matter is now going to the Court of Appeal and independent judges will exercise their own view on it. But I was in no doubt that it was a sentence that I felt had to be referred to the Court of Appeal. I should also say, Nick, I mean, as part of my consideration of the case, I read the victim statements. The bravery of those girls both putting themselves through the ordeal of a trial. But what is more, when they got those sentences to carry on campaigning to secure justice, the question I think they
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Nick (Interviewer)
were asking themselves and many other young women, girls are asking themselves, is what's the point of putting yourself through the trauma of going through the criminal justice system if your attacker doesn't get a custodial sentence?
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Lord Richard Hermer
Look, every day in courts up and down this country, people are sentenced to very long periods in prison for sexual offences. And we are determined to make sure that the criminal justice system works for victims. It's been a priority for this government since day one, as part of our wider commitment to tackling violence against women and girls, which is a real scourge at the moment in society.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Are you worried more broadly, though, that rape still isn't taken seriously enough by some? In the criminal justice system there's almost occasionally a sort of boys will be boys view of it.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, I don't think that is typical of a day to day experience. I have to say, in the work that I've been doing over the last two years with the Crime Prosecution Service and their units that are really kind of focus in specialise in rape and serious sexual violence, that is not the experience that I've got, that I've taken away from it. Is there room for us doing much better in certain areas of the criminal justice system? Absolutely. Are we determined to do that? Absolutely.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Underlying that case and underlying a lot of the criticism that's heard of lawyers and the law is a simple question. It's possibly the most powerful question in politics. Whose side are you on? And the perception there is, at least among some, that lawyers are not on their side, they're not on ordinary people's side. And you'll be all too aware that that's particularly the case when it comes to the small boats and migrants coming across it. And their fear is, and I'm going to put it directly, that lawyers like you and lawyers like Keir Starmer are more interested in the human rights of a guy who's paid thousands of pounds to a criminal and not much for the ordinary taxpayer over here.
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Lord Richard Hermer
I fundamentally disagree with that. So there is no tension between believing in human rights and having a steely determination to tackle small boats. And you can see that in this government, we come in and we are starting to be pretty effective in dealing with small boats. There's a lot more work to be done.
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Nick (Interviewer)
There'll be a lot of people. When you say you're being affected, you're seeing a thousand a week.
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Lord Richard Hermer
If you look at. Take for example, overall migration figures, which have cut about 70% since we came in to government, it's illegal migration. Yeah, but if you look at the thousands that are being detained on the beaches in France, we are starting to, With a lot of. A lot more still to come, we are starting to tackle it. Now, that is not only. Not necessarily in tension with our commitment to human rights, actually it is in part because we are committed to human rights and not least, we are a foreplayer in the Council of Europe that we are able to deal effectively or to start dealing more effectively with small boats. Let me explain why.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Yeah, I was going to say because. Let me just explain to people listening. Your critics say, look, even concern Conservative ministers, your friend David Wilson, Lord Wilson, a man who is your shadow, a Conservative. But as it happens, you've known each other for many years. You come from a very simple background, say, look, this Convention on Human Rights, stop us doing what we need to do. Stop us being able to detain and deport people and stop us basically carrying out the democratic wishes of the British people.
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Lord Richard Hermer
I fundamentally disagree. In fact, the converse is the case. So people are coming across to this country from France, from Belgium. They're traveling through Greece, they're taking boat parts through Germany. They're not coming here because we are members of the Council of Europe and have signed up to the European Convention of Human Rights. They're traveling from countries that are also signatories and strong supporters of it. Now, the way we are going to tackle small boats is in large measurements through cooperation with those states. And since we've come back into government and we've had a recommitment to the Council of Europe and the Convention, we've been able to sign really meaningful deals. We signed two deals with France. One, the one in, one out, the other the shallow waters agreements, where the French push people back in Germany.
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Nick (Interviewer)
You know, most of those cases, it's not much more than one in, one out. I mean, it's a tiny number of boats that have been slashed. Tiny number of.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, actually, it's not in terms of people who've been stopped in small waters. We're talking about thousands of people who've been stopped in small waters who otherwise would have made it to these shores. Germany has actually agreed to amend its own domestic criminal law to stop boat materials travelling through to the beaches of France and Belgium. Now, those deals are because we are in the Council of Europe, you say because we are committed. Oh, they would go.
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Nick (Interviewer)
The deals would go.
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Lord Richard Hermer
They would go. So what reform and the Tories have to answer is, well, what would you do? You wouldn't be able to have deals with France and Germany because they are contingent upon being members of it. Well, I don't know how they say.
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Nick (Interviewer)
They do. They say they'd ram people up on the beaches and send them somewhere else.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, I think what they mean by that is they let people drown in the water. And that is not a British way to deal with it. That is not commensurate with our values. The way to deal with it is the way that we've been dealing with it. And we're going to carry rolling out further agreements, which is cooperation with the States, through which people are traveling, through which people are launching boats. And we do that through our membership of the Council of Europe.
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Nick (Interviewer)
And so Kemi Badenot wants people to drown in the Channel?
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Lord Richard Hermer
No, no. I think if you hear some of the voices, even to the right of Kemi Badenoch, some of the kind of. Some of the kind of language and some of the rhetoric is deeply, deeply concerning the kind of disregard for the humanity of people. But what I am saying, Nick, is it's only through that international cooperation that we're going to be able to deal effectively with small boats. That requires our membership. We leave it, those agreements go and it's not only those agreements in respect to migration. Let's just be clear what leaving means, right? It means leaving our trade agreement with our biggest trading partner, the eu. It means in the field of policing, where we have to have data sharing agreements which are contingent upon our membership, those being ripped up. It means peace in Northern Ireland, the Good Friday Agreement.
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Nick (Interviewer)
This couldn't be clearer. And also what's interesting is to hear your passion, and I suspect it's Keir Starmie, a friend's passion as well. You see the tension, though, and this is when we come to his leadership, is what Tony Blair says. Let's take one aspect to start with. What Blair says is do whatever it takes on migration. And I think there are people listening to you who will say, well, you say do whatever the courts will accept, do whatever our colleagues in Europe will accept, do what sort of works within the existing system. And they don't want that sort of leadership. They just want someone to get on and do it.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Ash, let me tell you where I've come back from, which is last week I came back from Moldova. I was there with the vet, the Foreign Secretary, in which we had a Council of Europe meeting with 46 nations determined to do something about migration and unlawful migration that affects us all. So we've had a declaration in almost historically quick time, dealing in particular with foreign national offenders and making it easy to expel foreign national defenders. So nobody is saying that this international law framework that allows us to cooperate is somehow sort of chiseled in granite, is not able to change and move with the times. Of course it is. And we're playing, as the uk a really important central party.
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Nick (Interviewer)
How soon do you think it'll happen? Because at the moment it's a letter, it's statement.
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Lord Richard Hermer
No, no, the declaration happened, we signed it.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Yeah, but it's by politicians. You've got to convince the judges to pay attention to that. How soon do you think you'll see a difference?
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Lord Richard Hermer
I think you're going to see Shimana rolling out in the coming weeks further reforms of the immigration system that are going to be consistent with what we agree did Moldova.
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Nick (Interviewer)
So in other words, those things that it's technically called Article 3, isn't it the convention where somebody says, you can't deport me because the health system is worse in this or that country. You can't deport me because the prisons are revolting. You're saying that's over. Those days are gone.
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Lord Richard Hermer
I'm saying there's going to be a whole lot more flexibility in the approach that you're going to see to the expulsion of foreign national offenders, for sure. I'm not trying to hide for one moment that there is a very significant issue that the government is duty bound to address in respect of small boats. Right, we get it, but we want to deal with it effectively. Not just through rhetoric, not just through jingoism, but effectively. And that is what we're going about doing.
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Nick (Interviewer)
so that brings us to the crisis. And, you know, sometimes journalists are accused of hyperbole, but I think you and I can agree the Prime Minister faces a crisis about his leadership. There are people who want to replace him. They've been open about it. Andy Burnham's running for election because he wants to replace Keir Starmer. Does he believe he can survive this?
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Lord Richard Hermer
Yeah, I think he does, Nick. I mean, Keir's constantly been underestimated. I imagine throughout his life he's been underestimated and he's always proven his critics wrong. When he was the DPP taking on some of the most dangerous organised criminal gangs or politicians, or indeed the media as dpp, when he came in as Labour leader, people said, you're never going to turn this party around. So it's electable within three election cycles, but yet we had the victory that we had in 2024. So no one's ever got rich betting against Keir Starmer.
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Nick (Interviewer)
And yet Andy Burnham, if he wins a by election, there are other candidates, of course. You can always read them on the BBC website. If he becomes an mp, he's clear he wants to challenge the Prime Minister. How does that not lead to a Burnham Premiership rather than a Starmer Premiership?
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, look, I'm not going to get involved in speculation, but Keir Starmer will fight.
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Nick (Interviewer)
He won't say, game's up. Fair enough.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Here are the knowns, right? Here are the only things we know, because we don't know what's going to happen the by election. Here are the things we know. Keira's Leader, prime minister with a mandate from the general election and a absolute determination to better this country.
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Nick (Interviewer)
There's one other thing we know, isn't there? Not just that he's quite a stubborn man, not just that he's determined to prove his critics wrong. He's pretty angry about what's happening now, isn't he?
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Lord Richard Hermer
The thing with Keir is he is perhaps the most resilient person I've ever met. So I think, like, frankly, he'd have lots of good reason to be angry with what's going on. Of course, that's not what I pick up from him, Nick. What I pick up is just this dogged determination and resilience. And not because of any kind of sense of arrogance, not because he's kind of stubborn in kind of a negative sense, but he genuinely feels this sense of duty, having won the general election, to deliver for the government.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Dogged determination doesn't turn anything round though, does it? I mean, it might do for him, but the critics just say two real problems here. Hasn't got a vision, or if he has, he can't articulate it, and B, let's be brutal, he's a rubbish politician. She's not very good at it.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Yeah, here's a big surprise. I'm going to disagree with you. Can I really deal with the vision issue that Taney obviously made the critique of in his essay, Forgive me if I can for just a minute to tell you what the vision of this government is, what the kind of underlying philosophy is and how that accords with who Keir Starmer is. We believe this government believes, the Labour Party believes in the dignity of each human being and that every human being has to be accorded respect. And what that means in real terms is that everybody in life has to be given a fair crack of the whip. That doesn't matter. The wealth of your parents, doesn't matter. The circumstances in which you were born. You should be able to realize your potential in life. The reality is that is not this country, despite the fact we are, on a good day, the fifth largest economy in the world. The reality is your life chances are almost always going to be baked in by the wealth of your parents or the people who brought you up. It's even worse than that, Nick. Your life expectancy in this country is going to be materially determined by the circumstances in which you were born. And it's even worse than that because there's A, stats from a few weeks ago show your health and well being is going to be determined by that. Now Labour believe that the way to deal with that is knocking through the structural inequalities in society that lead to those deeply unequal outcomes. And that is what we've been doing each day. And it said, well, what's the kind of guiding string between all your different policies? Well, let me tell you, it's about respect at home. This is a government that's brought in Renters Rights act, it's respect at work. We brought in Employment Rights act. It's lifting children out of poverty in a way that no government in the post war era has done by removing the two child benefit. Now there, I could probably spend the rest of this podcast talking about different policies and how they're.
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Nick (Interviewer)
You couldn't. In a sense. Don't you sum up the problem though? Because I think people listening may think they know you're on a Radio 4 program in which you're expected to give thoughtful, intelligent answers. You've got some space to do it. But you can't put that on a banner, can you? You can't stitch that onto a banner. You can't make that into a short TikTok. It's very hard to communicate.
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Lord Richard Hermer
I think this is a very difficult age for politicians to land call messages. I think there are a number of reasons for that kind of. I'll give you three briefly brief reasons. Look, first is I think it is objectively reasonable for people in 2026 to be skeptical about what politicians promise. We've gone from 2010, we're all in this together at the same time. Austerity, stripping everything out for the poorest in society. We have Brexit, you have 350 million quid extra a week for the NHS. You have Covid. All the rules apply to everybody apart from.
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Nick (Interviewer)
I'm going to interrupt your three. Okay, I got through them and you know, social media is difficult and the.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, it's more than divided, it's more than difficult.
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Nick (Interviewer)
But you know, make America great again. That's a pretty short slogan. I know what that means. Take back control. I kind of know what that means. Get Brexit done. These are simple slogans.
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Lord Richard Hermer
Well, let's roll back a second because a couple of those comments about those slogans you've made turned out not to be true and deeply misleading. Take back control? I don't think so.
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Nick (Interviewer)
Make Britain richer.
- [28:08]
Lord Richard Hermer
I'm not saying. Yeah, I know. We are determined to actually change things, right? Not to govern simply through slogans, but to actually change, to put long term structural changes in place in society that actually make life Better for millions of people. Now, can we do that in a slightly more kind of snappy way? Fit for the age? I'm sure we can. Were we perhaps a little too, I wouldn't say too honest, but a little too down in the early days of the government about the predicament that we found ourselves in? Arguably, yes. Can we always strive to do better? Yes.
- [28:44]
Nick (Interviewer)
Now, let's talk about your passion, because it's evident in your demeanour, but also in what you've done in your career. Where has this passion come from? Because when I look into your background, I found myself surprised to discover that your father's a Tory counsellor, not just in Cardiff, but in South Glamorgan county as well.
- [29:02]
Lord Richard Hermer
Yeah, yeah. Look, I grew up in a. In a household with which there was, should we say, a divergence of political views. It was a good household. I mean, I had a fantastically wonderful, happy childhood.
- [29:13]
Nick (Interviewer)
Did you argue about politics?
- [29:15]
Lord Richard Hermer
Well, we certainly discussed it because first day my, I was on one side with my mum and my siblings and my dad was in sort of somewhat splendid isolation with his admiration to the Conservative Party. But it did teach me a really important lesson. I mean, I've never met a kinder, more generous person than my, my late father and he was an old style, one nation Tory. We could discuss politics, but we never argued about it. We could try and tease each other about it, of course, but we never, ever fell out about it. And this kind of tribal element to politics that, you know, you can't be my friend if you don't share my political views and which we're kind of increasingly seeing in this kind of fractured society. I just don't buy that, because here's a person I could not have loved more whose politics were different to mine.
- [30:02]
Nick (Interviewer)
Now we know the famous cab rank principle, which is that lawyers take the people who come to them. But as your opponent and friend David Wilson pointed out in a lecture, all your cabs are always heading in the same direction. You always choose people who are taking on the country.
- [30:20]
Lord Richard Hermer
Well, as often with my dear friend David, he produces a nice catchphrase, but it doesn't actually reflect the truth. So of course I did those cases and of course I did them in accordance with my professional obligations. But I had a 30 year career at the bar in which I represented thousands of people. And in addition to those cases, I mean, I did cases for communities in the Niger Delta, which was a world first, getting accountability for oil pollution. I did it for victims of sexual violence in Malawi. I represented the Grenfell Tower victims. I'm not going to go on about my cases because lawyers, lawyers have a terrible habit of doing so. But my point, Nick, is this. I spent a 30 year career representing thousands of people. I would never apologize for being a human rights lawyer. I'd never apologise for representing clients without fear or favor in the best traditions of the bar. And I think we just need to be careful. I mean, as I said at the beginning, right, people can criticise me and I can kind of shrug my shoulders, but we do need to be careful about not trying to bring the House down. The importance of an independent bar, the importance of an independent judiciary.
- [31:23]
Nick (Interviewer)
So when an opponent like Robert Jenrick says, you work for Britain's enemies, uses that phrase, you may recall it calls you a useful idiot for Britain's enemies.
- [31:32]
Lord Richard Hermer
Can't we. I just think we could do better as a society than kind of descend to that sort of level. I mean, like generic. Knows full well he was a lawyer. He knows full well what a professional obligation of a lawyer is.
- [31:44]
Nick (Interviewer)
Right.
- [31:45]
Lord Richard Hermer
Where are we going as a society, Nick?
- [31:46]
Nick (Interviewer)
But to be fair, Chambers, Downey Street Chambers, were set up to represent the underdog. Now, your definition of the underdog included people who was the mother of a terrorist and Gerry Adams were entitled to say that was a choice. That wasn't an obligation.
- [32:01]
Lord Richard Hermer
You can't refuse a case on the basis you don't like the politics or you find a person morally repugnant. And it is fair to say that there are people I have represented in the past whose views I find morally repugnant. But the nature of the independent bar is you get on and represent without fear or favor.
- [32:18]
Nick (Interviewer)
I need to give you an opportunity bearing in mind the limitations on what Attorney Generals can say, to answer the criticism that Jerry Adams, who you represented when you were his lawyer, you were then in some way involved in the discussion around what's called the Troubles Bill, which could have allowed Republicans like Jerry Adams to claim compensation for being unlawfully detained.
- [32:40]
Lord Richard Hermer
Yeah, no, look, Nick, I really welcome the kind of opportunity just to make something plain. There is in place in government, for any Attorney General, when they come in from private practice, a really rigorous system about conflicts, conflicts of interest, and we err absolutely on the side of caution. It's something that goes through my office, it goes through the Cabinet Office, it goes through the independent adviser on ethics. So there can be no world in which I would be advising on cases where I had a professional conflict.
- [33:12]
Nick (Interviewer)
You couldn't be involved in the discussion of the troubles.
- [33:14]
Lord Richard Hermer
I Can't go into the individuals, I can't go into what I have advised. I cannot get involved in cases in which I would have a professional conflict. And even if there was a kind of a slight question mark, I'm always, always going to err on the side of caution.
- [33:29]
Nick (Interviewer)
We've talked a lot about the law, not just because you're the government's legal officer, but also because it's been your life. It was put to us when we were preparing this interview that Doughty Street Chambers, the group of barristers that Keir Starmer was in, that you were in, that David Lammy, later the Deputy Prime Minister, had something to do with, was the Eton of the modern Labour Party. He's got a point.
- [33:56]
Lord Richard Hermer
That's the closest I've ever been to Eton, that's for sure. Look, I left there, I should say many years ago, but it was a wonderful time, it was a wonderful chambers. But just be clear, right? It's not as if it was some hotbed of radicalism. Look at Keir's path. He went from there to become adviser to the Northern Ireland Police Service and then to become DPP before becoming Prime Minister. The privilege, the absolute, genuine privilege of my lifetime is to be Attorney General working for the government, fighting the government cases, working day in, day out with the armed forces and the intelligence community. That is not despite being a human rights lawyer. It's because of the life experiences that I've had, because of the legal experience that I've had. And to be able to bring that to bear for the benefit of the country and the government is an extraordinary privilege.
- [34:45]
Nick (Interviewer)
You need to clear something up that the nation has been demanding an answer to. Was Keir Starmer, when you worked with him all those years ago, actually the model for Mark Darcy and Bridget James,
- [34:58]
Lord Richard Hermer
I'm afraid the Law Office and convention. Nick, I can neither confirm nor deny any. Just can't comment.
- [35:05]
Nick (Interviewer)
I'm afraid the author, Helen Fielding, insists or hints, doesn't she? Doesn't insist that he really was. I had.
- [35:12]
Lord Richard Hermer
You know what, I have absolutely no idea.
- [35:15]
Nick (Interviewer)
But it's a good story.
- [35:17]
Lord Richard Hermer
I can confirm you. I confirm he was a terribly heavy tackler on the 5si football. Oh, yeah, I've heard that scars to
- [35:23]
Nick (Interviewer)
prove it for previous guests, but quite.
- [35:24]
Lord Richard Hermer
Whether he was the inspiration for Mark d', Arcy I gonna have to pass.
- [35:27]
Nick (Interviewer)
And I don't know if this is noted in your diary, but this year is the 30th anniversary of your meeting with Keir Starmer.
- [35:33]
Lord Richard Hermer
Yeah.
- [35:34]
Nick (Interviewer)
Will you be celebrating?
- [35:35]
Lord Richard Hermer
I would like to mark that act of generosity and kindness that I saw in 1996. I'd like to mark it with a friend whose values have remained the same, whose warmth, kindness and decency is the same today as it was then.
- [35:54]
Nick (Interviewer)
And as 2026 comes to an end, will he still be Prime Minister?
- [35:57]
Lord Richard Hermer
Yes, I really hope so.
- [35:59]
Nick (Interviewer)
Lord Homer, Richard Homer, thank you very much for joining me on Political Thinking.
- [36:03]
Lord Richard Hermer
Thanks so much, Nick.
- [36:04]
Nick (Interviewer)
Thanks for listening to this episode of Political Thinking. The producers were Hannah Wilkinson and Flora Murray. The editor is Giles Edwards. If you have a moment this weekend to peruse the library of previous conversations available on BBC Sounds, you might be interested to hear a conversation with Lord Herma's close personal friend, none other than Keir Starmer himself From back in July 2025, one of several appearances the Prime Minister has made on Political Thinking. And if you subscribe, you'll get next Week's conversation with 96 year old Holocaust survivor and grandfather of international law Theodore Mehren in your feed as soon as it's released.
- [36:46]
Gemma Gander
I'm Gemma gander and for BBC Radio 4 and Shadow World, this is Stolen Years. More than two decades ago, Andrew Malkinson was found guilty of a crime. Crime he didn't commit.
- [36:58]
Nick (Interviewer)
There's a massive hole in your life and it's been filled in with suffering.
- [37:02]
Gemma Gander
Now in 2026, another man has faced a jury of his peers on trial for the very same crime Andrew spent years of his life imprisoned for.
- [37:11]
Nick (Interviewer)
I'm 55. I was 37 when I went in. It's damaging.
- [37:15]
Gemma Gander
Driven by Andy's passion to see the system held to account, we follow him as he tries to build back a life. And we discover how Paul Quinn came to finally be convicted. Subscribe to Shadow Stolen Years on BBC Sounds.
- [37:35]
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