From Downing Street... to California Governor? Former Tory adviser Steve Hilton on making the Golden State great again

Summary

Political Thinking with Nick Robinson – Episode Summary Date: June 19, 2026 | Guest: Steve Hilton, Republican Candidate for Governor of California

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nick Robinson sits down for a candid, wide-ranging conversation with Steve Hilton. Once David Cameron's influential advisor and the proponent of "compassionate conservatism" in the UK, Hilton is now the newly minted Republican candidate for Governor of California, with the endorsement of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. Robinson explores Hilton’s political transformation, his core values formed by his upbringing as the child of Hungarian refugees, and how he reconciles his British political past with his new American conservatism.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Unique American Journey

• On Belonging as a Brit in US Politics
  Hilton stresses that America truly welcomes outsiders and offers unique opportunities for belonging and upward mobility ([02:03]).

  “Anyone from anywhere can do anything. That’s the idea of America...[it] puts you on exactly the same level field in terms of citizenship and belonging as anyone else.” – Steve Hilton [02:18]

• Hilton became a proud American citizen in 2021 and feels more at home in the US than he ever did in the UK.

2. Political Transformation and Consistency

• From ‘Compassionate Conservatism’ to MAGA
  Robinson presses Hilton on his apparent political shift from "hug a hoodie" environmentalist with Cameron to a Trump-endorsed, Fox News–backed populist.
  • Hilton insists his core beliefs—devolving power, skepticism of centralized bureaucracy, and a focus on practical solutions—have held steady ([06:13]).
  • He views changes in policy focus as pragmatic responses to failed economic and social policies.

  “I think I'm exactly the same person with the same set of values and beliefs.” – Steve Hilton [11:36]

3. Economic Inequality as the Turning Point

• Defining Moment (2015-2016):
  Hilton describes discovering American wage stagnation data while writing More Human, which showed decades of flat real wages for most workers. This, he claims, was the catalyst for embracing 'positive populism' and subsequently supporting both Brexit and Trump ([06:51], [08:50]).

  “You’ve had decades of wildly differing economic policy…and yet at the end of all of that, the economic position of most people was flat.” – Steve Hilton [07:33]
  “That captured something that really was the underlying driver of what I came to call positive populism.” – Steve Hilton [07:56]

4. Environmentalism and Climate Policy

• Hilton maintains he is a lifelong environmentalist but criticizes California's energy policies for increasing emissions through imported oil rather than local production ([05:13], [23:08]).
• He distinguishes between ideological climate policy and practical conservation.

  “What we've got to get to is a point where we can take care of environmental concerns…in a way that doesn't crush working people and small business.” – Steve Hilton [23:23]

5. Roots and Core Values: Anti-Bureaucracy and Freedom

• Hungarian Heritage
  Growing up in Brighton as the child of Hungarian refugees who fled Soviet oppression, Hilton says, made him deeply suspicious of “arbitrary authority and bureaucratic control” ([12:41]).

  • Books like Hayek’s Road to Serfdom were formative influences ([13:16]).

  “A very powerful driver of hating arbitrary authority and bureaucratic control over people…I think that's one of my sort of main critiques of what's happened in California.” – Steve Hilton [12:41]

• Upward Mobility:
  Scholarship to Christ’s Hospital, a unique boarding school serving disadvantaged children, and then Oxford (“a springboard to opportunity”) instilled Hilton’s belief in social mobility ([14:23], [15:24]).

6. Disillusionment in UK Government

• Frustrations in Downing Street
  Hilton reflects on the “energy and excitement” of the 2010 Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition manifesto (“Invitation to join the government of Britain”), but frustration at the failure to push through radical decentralization ([16:52], [18:23]).
  • Ultimately, bureaucratic inertia dampened transformative ambitions. His departure for the US, however, was for family reasons ([18:31]).

7. Media, Populism, and Conspiracy: The Fox News Years

• Addressing criticism for allegedly supporting Trump’s 2020 election falsehoods on Fox News, Hilton claims he was misrepresented and never endorsed those theories ([19:46], [20:48]).

  “I never said any of that in terms of 2020…It’s a deliberate distortion of what I said.” – Steve Hilton [20:48]

  • He argues his “resistance” comment referred to opposing Democratic policies, not the legitimacy of the election ([20:32]).

8. Standing Up to Power: Trump and Big Tech

• Would He Stand Up to Trump?
  Hilton says yes, pledging to defend Californian interests “regardless of who's the president” ([22:22]).

• Big Tech and Social Media Regulation
  Proud of California’s tech sector but believes current approaches to regulating online harms (e.g., banning under-16s on social media) miss the target. Argues for policies focusing on “unsupervised access to the internet,” not specific apps ([25:37]).

  • Also voices concern about innovation and jobs leaving California due to high costs and business-hostile policy ([27:36]).

9. Personal Identity and Citizenship

• Renunciation of British Citizenship
  Hilton describes an affinity for America that his UK upbringing never matched, and emphasizes California’s “rebel spirit” ([29:48]).

  “I feel deeply at home here in a way I never was in the UK, just to be honest.” – Steve Hilton [29:50]

10. Reluctant Suit-Wearer and Sliding Doors

• On his unconventional style in Downing Street (bare feet, t-shirts), Hilton confirms anecdotes about needing to “smarten up” to meet President Obama ([30:40]).
• Reflects humorously that losing out to Michael Gove for a UK Parliamentary nomination was a “lucky escape” ([31:10]).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “I often make this point that you could go to the UK and become a citizen and never really be British…Something very special about America…” – Steve Hilton [02:18]
• “It’s a very powerful driver of hating arbitrary authority and bureaucratic control over people.” – Steve Hilton [12:41]
• “I think I'm exactly the same person with the same set of values and beliefs.” – Steve Hilton [11:36]
• “That was a lucky escape...I think all round it’s worked out well.” – Steve Hilton [31:10]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hilton’s American Candidacy and Belonging: [01:41] – [03:20]
• Environmentalism & Energy Policy: [03:56] – [05:46], revisit at [23:08]
• Political Journey & ‘Positive Populism’: [06:13] – [09:55]
• Hungarian Roots, Suspicion of State Power: [11:48] – [13:16]
• Educational Upward Mobility: [14:13] – [15:24]
• Frustrations in UK Politics & Departure to US: [16:26] – [18:31]
• Fox News, Election Claims, Misinformation: [19:08] – [21:49]
• Standing Up to Trump and Policy Differences: [22:03] – [23:23]
• Big Tech, Business Climate, Social Media Bans: [24:32] – [27:36]
• Views on Inequality, Being a ‘Small Business Owner’: [28:31] – [29:38]
• Renouncing British Citizenship: [29:38] – [30:14]
• Suit Anecdote & Sliding Doors Moment: [30:14] – [31:10]
• Closing Reflections: [32:09] – [32:21]

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Overall Tone

• The conversation is relaxed, searching, and occasionally sparring but always respectful.
• Hilton is eager to stress consistency behind apparent transformation, emphasizing anti-bureaucratic populism, environmental pragmatism, and allegiance to Californian values.

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This episode offers a nuanced exploration of Steve Hilton’s journey from British political adviser to American populist candidate, grounding political evolution in biography, principle, and perceived failure of old paradigms.

Transcript

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[Nick Robinson]

Hello and welcome to Political Thinking. My guest on Political Thinking this week has been on an extraordinary political journey. It's taken Steve Hilton from Downing street, where he was Prime Minister David Cameron's key advisor to, to California, where he has just become the Republican candidate in this November's election to be the next Governor of the state. Hilton was credited with coming up with something called compassionate conservatism, which urged people you might remember to hug a hoodie, to vote blue, to go green, to embrace what he called the big society. But he's now endorsed by Donald Trump and Trump's MAGA movement, having made his name as a Fox News host who attacked the radical left and argued for what he called positive populism. Steve Hilton, thank you for joining us from California.

[Steve Hilton]

Thank you very much.

[Nick Robinson]

There will be people listening to you, watching you in the uk. There may be still some in the United States, in California as well, saying, hold on a second, this guy sounds like a Brit. He's got a cup of tea in front of him on his zoom line. He's a Brit. He used to work in Downing Street. What on earth does he think he can be governor of the Golden State?

[Steve Hilton]

Well, 2.3 million or so people just voted for me, so there must be something they're seeing. I think that on the brick point, look, the beauty of America, and it's a really unique thing I would say about this country, is that anybody can come here, anyone from anywhere can do anything. That's the idea of America, that central idea of becoming an American that puts you on exactly the same level field in terms of citizenship and belonging as anyone else is truly unique. I often make this point that you could go to the UK and become a citizen and never really be British. My parents are Hungarian, both my parents and my stepfather. You could live in Hungary for 40 years and comply with all the requirements of citizenship, whatever, but you're never going to be Hungarian. And there's Something very special about America that welcomes people here and gives people the opportunity. And I'm a proud American. I became a citizen in 2021. I feel at home here, both in America and actually in California. I'm a very proud Californian, obviously. And I feel at home here in a way I actually have never felt before. I feel like this is where I'm meant to be. And I couldn't be more honored that people now are putting their faith in me to turn the state around.

[Nick Robinson]

There are other reasons that Brits in particular may be a bit puzzled by this journey that you've been on. Those who remember you, those who read about you, heard about you back when David Cameron was Prime Minister in 2010, will remember that you were the guy that told him to go and accompany a pack of huskies to the Arctic, who told him to put a windmill on his house to prove that he was committed to clean energy, who at one news conference arranged for journalists to be handed saplings, silver birch saplings, to plant at home. And now you're a representative of Trump's MAGA movement. What on earth happened?

[Steve Hilton]

Well, first of all, I didn't tell him to do anything. So that's just to make sure that everyone understands that. Secondly, I'm an environmentalist, I always have been. But that specific contrast that you draw there, I think it's worth digging into. I mean, environmentalism, let's just start with the big picture. To me, never has just meant. I think it's actually a failing of the environmental movement that it's become very ideological and very focused on just one aspect of environmentalism, which is climate change, albeit a very important one. But there's more to it than that. Conservation, protecting our beautiful parks and public spaces. Here in California, environmentalism is very deeply felt. In a way, California invented the modern environmental movement and I feel very much part of that. Specifically on climate change. I think that when you actually look at the policies, I'm just talking about California now, we've got a set of energy policies that are being pursued in the name of fighting climate change, but which are actually increasing carbon emissions, for example, importing now most of the oil that we use from halfway around the world on giant supertankers into, instead of producing it here in California.

[Nick Robinson]

So you're saying you're still a green, but you have an argument about the way that green policies are pursued. Do you believe in man made climate change?

[Steve Hilton]

Yeah, yeah. And I think we need to have common sense policies on that. Just to go back to the oil example, we are literally increasing carbon emissions in the name of climate change policy because the tankers. There's no oil pipeline into California. We're an island in that sense. But we have abundant oil and gas reserves here in California. We used to produce most of the oil we use right here in our state. By some measure we have the second largest oil reserves in the world. But in the name of climate change, oil production has been shut down in California to the point we're now importing nearly 80% of what we use.

[Nick Robinson]

Well, look, there are obviously some echoes in the policy debate that's being had in the uk. Let's get to policy in a little while though. What I want to understand to start with is whether you accept you've been on a political journey, that there is a big difference in the Steve Hilton running as the Trump backed candidate in California with the David Cameron advisor. Or in reality, do you think that's a superficial view, that you're still you, you always were, you always will be?

[Steve Hilton]

I do actually think it's. It's a bit superficial, but I would totally accept that. There's been a personal and a professional journey which has been great in the sense of giving me opportunities I never would have dreamed of back in the UK to teach at Stanford University, start a business here in California, have a whole new career in the media, which I never would have expected. All those things definitely would represent a journey, of course.

[Nick Robinson]

Did you come to a view that some of the things that you stood for, that you're associated with back in the UK were actually the wrong analysis and that you and conservatives, whether in the US or in the uk, needed to shift?

[Steve Hilton]

The way I answer that is to. The thing that comes to mind is a moment. It really was a very specific moment in 2015. And I'd just published a book in the UK, we probably talked about it at the time, More Human Designing a World Where People Come First. And the argument in the book was that everything's become too big and bureaucratic and centralized and distant from the human scale. We need to decentralize power and so on. The UK book came out in 2015 and then in 2016 a US version was published. And during 2015 I was working on updating the UK version with American case studies and statistics and so on. And at that point, I think in the chapter on inequality or poverty, whatever, I came across this chart of data which really struck me and it's become quite well known now, but it plotted on a chart the earnings after inflation of the majority of American workers I think the term is non managerial, non supervisory workers in that 80% of the workforce, their earnings plotted on a chart. And basically it showed that after inflation, those earnings have been flat, like totally flat, since 1974, I believe. So you've had decades of wildly differing economic policy, left, right, globalization, so on. And yet at the end of all of that, the economic position of most people was flat, whereas on the same chart they plotted the earnings of the top 20% and corporate earnings, and they went up like a hockey stick. And to me, that captured something that really was the underlying driver of what I came to call positive populism, which is something's not working here. And the economic policies that have been pursued by, you know, on an ideological basis by both sides are not delivering for most regular people.

[Nick Robinson]

So that took you on a journey, on a journey to backing Brexit in the UK and to backing Donald Trump in the us.

[Steve Hilton]

Yes. And the specifics on both were with Trump, you could see that even going right back to the start of his campaign in 2015, he was talking about that in a way that Hillary Clinton and no other candidates were. And now these themes were. Are actually quite familiar in our politics. But when Trump started talking about it in 2015, it was very unusual. The role of China, manufacturing, being driven, offshore immigration in terms of lowering labor costs, importing low skilled, sorry, low wage workers and so on. And those arguments were new. And I thought he was the only one talking about that in a way that made sense, having seen that data about the position of most people. And I thought the same argument applied in relation to Brexit, although with Brexit there was a deeper sense of frustration because of course I was very familiar with the role of the eu. That went back a long way. I don't want to rehash the whole Brexit conversation, but that wasn't just about the economic impact on working people. It was a deeper conviction about centralization of power and democracy.

[Nick Robinson]

Actually, people will be hearing you kind of very rationally, calmly going through the arguments as you saw them. I think they'll still think those who remember you. Hold on. This husky hugger, this hugger, hoodie hugger, that was the name of a speech, or it was the slogan, a speech by David Cameron when he was leader of the Conservative Party got no by the guy who said political correctness is just courtesy. That's what the guy who was your leader thought. You have changed. Why? Why are you saying you haven't?

[Steve Hilton]

I don't think so. I mean, to be specific, what's the hug a hoodie thing? That was actually a headline written by, I believe it was the News of the World, Andy Coulson, who then went on to be my colleague in the team, which was a description of a speech that was arguing for understanding the causes of juvenile crime, as well as holding young criminals accountable for their behavior. I think that's something that most normal common sense people would agree with, and the role of family and parenting and so on. So I think, you know, some of these things have become myths, and that's fair enough. That happens in politics. But if on each individual one, I think that once you dig into it, actually, there's not nearly as much contradiction. For example, if you want to just take that specific issue, it was President Trump in the first administration who actually made a lot of headway on criminal justice reform, particularly something called the First Step act, which is all about rehabilitation and giving prisoners a second chance, reducing the prison population, so on. So I think that once you get below the headlines, the picture is not quite the one that a lot of. I understand completely why people want to paint that picture. I truly don't see any real change in terms of ideas or beliefs. Certain policy areas, yeah. But in a deep sense, no. I think I'm exactly the same person with the same set of values and beliefs.

[Nick Robinson]

That couldn't be clearer. So let's explore where those values and beliefs came from. You released a video for your campaign to become California government. You said it all began with freedom. What did he mean?

[Steve Hilton]

So the image that then follows that is the Soviet tanks rolling into Hungary. My parents are Hungarian, and that's Referring to the 1956 revolution, the uprising which was crushed by a Soviet invasion. And when I was a kid, I was born in England. My parents are Hungarian. My stepfather's hunger. My parents split up when I was young. My stepfather's also Hungarian. We would go back to Hungary all the time. And you just saw the contrast between a free country and. And one where people didn't have freedom. And Hungary was not nearly the worst of the oppression that you saw in the Soviet bloc. But it just became very striking to me, the difference between the lives that my cousins lived and so on.

[Nick Robinson]

And did it make you suspicious of the state, suspicious of the left?

[Steve Hilton]

Yes, all of those things, but also a sense of. I think it's a very powerful driver of hating arbitrary authority and bureaucratic control over people. I think that's a very, very deep belief in me, and I think that's one of my sort of main critiques of what's happened in California. We've ended up, after 16 years now of one party control, with this extraordinarily intrusive, bloated nanny state bureaucracy really trying to migrate.

[Nick Robinson]

It's not just, to be clear, communist hungry. But we'll come to that. Let's carry on with your life story. Let's carry on with your life story.

[Steve Hilton]

Not at all. But if you look. I mean, if you read something like, you know, the Road to Serfdom, Hayek's book, you know, once you start down that road, you know, it does end in a very bad place.

[Nick Robinson]

When your parents come to the UK as refugees from communist Hungary, you have, as a young boy, quite a tough life, don't you? I mean, your parents get divorced, you end up in a damp basement flat in Brighton. This is a pretty tough start.

[Steve Hilton]

Also quite normal. I wouldn't want to overstate it. It wasn't destitute poverty, but it was. Yeah, I mean, that's true what you just said. But soon after that, if I'm. I'm trying to recall the sequence, my mum met my stepfather, who's also Hungarian, and, you know, he was a regular, I'd say a regular kind of working class immigrant home. And I very much absorbed that sense of a work ethic. And that was a time when Mrs. Thatcher had just been elected. And that sense of, you know, striving, upward mobility, working hard, you know, that was. That was what I really remember from those years.

[Nick Robinson]

And they send you to a very smart boarding school, presumably with a scholarship, which is believed to have the oldest and maybe the oddest school uniform in the world.

[Steve Hilton]

It's an amazing school. It's called Christ Hospital. It's in the countryside in Sussex, near a town called Horsham. It's an amazing place because most of the kids there are from less advantaged backgrounds. I think something like 85% of the kids don't pay any fee. Parents don't pay any fees. The word unique is overused. It's a genuinely unique institution.

[Nick Robinson]

But. But so is the uniform. Tell us about this uniform.

[Steve Hilton]

Yeah, it's weird. So you wear this big, thick, very dark blue coat with sort of silver buttons down the front. And then you wear what's called breeches down to your knees and very bright, thick yellow socks and bands like priest bands. It's a. Yeah, it's a very different to anywhere else.

[Nick Robinson]

And do you really believe it took you from poverty to privilege? Because you then go to Oxford University, go on to work for the Conservative, you work For Old Etonian, the oldest, richest school in the UK produces multiple prime ministers, including the man who's your friend. And you become an advisor to David Cameron for sure.

[Steve Hilton]

That's exactly what happened. It's a springboard to opportunity, actually. I remember thinking years later, you know, I was in a position to discuss and influence policy, like, is there something we can do to create more institutions like this? Because it had a profound impact on me. A game changer completely. As was Oxford University, in fact. And so I look back on that with huge appreciation and gratitude.

[BBC Podcast Host 2]

He's widely recognized as one of the greatest footballers in history.

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He's won the prestigious Ballon d' or award five times.

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He's the all time leading goal scorer in professional football.

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And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status.

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Guess who we're talking about yet?

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That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.

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Listen now. Wherever you get your BBC podcasts,

[Steve Hilton]

You

[Nick Robinson]

help reshape the Conservative Party in opposition. They win an election in 2010, though they have to share power with the Liberal Democrats back then in a coalition. There was a sense once you got into Downing street, for people like me who were reporting on it day to day, that you were always uncomfortable in that building at the heart of power. You're always angry. Is that the right word? With those in charge? Frustrated, perhaps?

[Steve Hilton]

Definitely frustrated. I think we should go back to what the idea was. So there was something, you may recall that was very different about the manifesto that we ran on in 2010, which along with others, people like Oliver Letwin and my friend Rohan. So there's a whole bunch of us obviously worked on that. It had a very unusual name title. Normally these documents are called The Conservative Manifesto 2010, or whatever this one was called. Invitation to Join the Government of Britain. And the reason for that was that there really was an idea at the heart of it that we all felt very strongly about, which is that it's going back to 2010, that Britain had become too centralized, too bureaucratic, too much of an overbearing, bloated government. You were seeing that in all sorts of different ways, not least in taxes that were too high and spending that was too high, but also restriction on innovation and opportunity. And the mission of the incoming government, if elected, would be to radically decentralize power, put power on people's hands in education and healthcare and control of local services. Budget, the whole thing. There was a real kind of very bold reform idea. At the heart of it, then you have the coalition agreement put together. And one of the things that was, I'm trying to remember, I mean, it's a long time ago now. This is like, was it 2010? So. But if I recall, there was actually an energy and excitement about those conversations once we got into it with the Liberal Democrats, which was about the overlap of some of those ideas. Yeah.

[Nick Robinson]

Was there then disappointment, though? I'm trying to understand why you were frustrated and you leaned you leave in 2012, you go to the United States.

[Steve Hilton]

That's what I'm getting at, which is that the promise, I think, of that partnership in terms of a real change in how Britain is governed was something that I've very deeply believed in and found that once you encounter the reality of government, there was just not the energy to push that forward. And I think you see the results of that still in a country that is way too over bureaucratized and centralized and so on. And it's the same argument, funnily enough, that now applies here in California. But just to go back to your question about leaving, that was actually nothing to do with that. That was entirely for family reasons.

[Nick Robinson]

Having moved to the United States, your first big move a little while later into US Politics, certainly into the awareness that people had of you, was as a host of the Fox News show the Next Revolution. One reason you upset quite a lot of people is on that Fox News program that you presented, you appeared to go along with suggestions that the 2020 election had been stolen. And you said at one point, you said at one point it'll be resistance all the way every day. As you were angry with what the Democrats were saying about that election, do you accept now you should have said, look, Biden won it.

[Steve Hilton]

I did. It's a very interesting example of how misinformation takes hold, which is that I never said any of any of that in terms of 2020. In fact, just to be really precise about it, there was a lawsuit around all of that at the time. There's that whole process of discovery. And my team had to go and see the lawyers. And they emerged saying, well, we got nothing to worry about, because I apparently sent an email to the team around that time saying, I don't want to go near any of this stuff. However, what happened was, remember at the time, everybody across the political spectrum, including President elect Biden himself, was saying, let's have proper investigation of all these allegations.

[Nick Robinson]

But what did you mean by It'll be resistance all the way, every day.

[Steve Hilton]

Well, because that's the job of. That's the job of. I can't remember the whole context of it, but what I'm assuming I meant is resistance to the policies that I disagreed with.

[Nick Robinson]

Well, I thought you meant resistance to those who said there wasn't a problem with the election. So you think you were misunderstood?

[BBC Podcast Host 1]

No.

[Steve Hilton]

Deliberately distorted? No, it's more than misunderstood. It's very important because it's a deliberate distortion of what I said. And actually, if you really want to go into the anatomy of it, Nick, I think it's a very interesting example of how misinformation spreads, which is that during that period, the President posted clips from my show which actually said nothing about any of this. But the Independent newspaper in England saw the clips being posted without comment, wrote a story without seemingly watching the actual clips, saying that I had endorsed these theories, which I didn't. But they assumed it, I think, from just the fact that the President was posting these clips.

[Nick Robinson]

I guess what the critics would say is, should you have been clearer about it? Let's not get bogged into the interstices of who's in. Should you have just gone on your show, you're an influential guy, and said, Look, Mr. President, look, Donald Trump, just accept you lost.

[Steve Hilton]

I remember having an interview with him around that time when that's basically what I did say, a phone interview. I think it was soon after January 6th. So I think this. The way that this has been reported is not just wrong, it's the opposite of the truth.

[Nick Robinson]

Okay, well, let's move on then. Because some people wonder whether, given your closeness to Trump and given your closeness to the MAGA movement, whether the guy who boasts of standing up for the little guy, which is a lot of your pitch, would really stand up to the powerful people. Let's start with Trump. Would you stand up to him?

[Steve Hilton]

Yeah, of course. My job as governor will be to stand up for California. That is the case regardless of who's the president. It happens to be the case that on a whole set of policy issues, unsurprisingly because I'm a Republican candidate, I happen to agree with the Republican administration at the federal level. One example is gas prices. We talked about that earlier. The President and his team wants to expand energy production across America, and especially in California. I agree with that. The current governor's blocking that. It's an example of how actually having a governor with a good working relationship with the President and his Cabinet, I think, will provide concrete benefits to Californians.

[Nick Robinson]

But then we go to the environment, where he calls it a climate hoax. Do you call that climate hoax?

[Steve Hilton]

No. However, let's just be clear. Right now in California, we have the highest gas prices in the country. The highest, even though we have abundant oil reserves. The highest electric bills everywhere except for Hawaii. The highest cost of living overall, driven in large part by energy. The highest poverty rate of any state. We're tied with Louisiana for that. The highest unemployment rate of all 50 states, the highest cost of living. It's a real economic disaster going on right now in California, which is masked by the fact that we are the fourth biggest economy in the world. So actually, what we've got to get to is a point where we can take care of environmental concerns and climate change in a way that doesn't crush working people and small business in particular. So my approach to that, for example, going back to where we started the conversation about environmentalism, is a much less punitive one, which is about planting trees. I've got a plan. We can get to the net 0:20,45 goal that California has set, which to me is somewhat arbitrary. But still, if you buy into that goal at the moment, the current path to getting that is a disaster for California because it will just drive business away and make people poorer. There's a much better way of doing that, which is to, for example, protect wetlands, plant trees, but a whole plan around that, a more practical and positive way of meeting the goal. So it's a question about how you get there.

[Nick Robinson]

So you say you'll stand up to Donald Trump in certain circumstances. What about big tech? You're in the big tech state. Your wife, as you say, has had jobs at Google and Uber and now at Netflix. Sergey Brin, the co founder of Google, was one of your big backers. Here in Europe, people increasingly think big tech is too big, too powerful, causing social problems. Have they got a point? Or are you going to fight for tech against European governments?

[Steve Hilton]

I'm going to fight for people, and that includes supporting California businesses. So my job as governor will be to make sure we do everything to increase jobs and wealth and opportunity here in California. Tech is one of our biggest and most important industries. I'm incredibly proud that we've led so far. It's part of the spirit of California, that innovation, that rebel spirit, where you have people deciding that they're going to change the way things work and invent new ways of doing things. Very proud of that.

[Nick Robinson]

So what would you do if governments around the world ban under 16s regarding on social media, as the British government now says it will.

[Steve Hilton]

So I raised that issue before almost anyone in that book. I refer to 2015 more human, where I wrote extensively about that. But my focus then, as it is now, is on not the apps and the specific platforms, it's the screens that I think are the problem. Because that's why I don't think any of these policies make much sense. The UK one or the Australia one it seems to be banned on. I think it's all missing the point, which is what you really want to be careful about is unsupervised access to the Internet for people under 16, for children. And so I think that they're missing the target completely. And so I think we need a completely different approach. And 11 years ago I was arguing that.

[Nick Robinson]

Now, in that book that you've referred to a couple of times, you said that part of the problem with the world was that what you described as mostly national corporations that had a sense of connection to and responsibility for their local communities have given way, and I'm quoting you now, to rootless global entities, private sector bureaucracies, many of which have lost all sense of community perspective. Sounds to me like you're describing those big tech firms in California. They're the rootless ones, aren't they? They're the one who haven't got a sense of community or perspective.

[Steve Hilton]

Well, I think that, you know, it's not, it's not a sort of general point. I think I was more referring to businesses that, for example, have offshore manufacturing devastating communities in the process. That's what I think that I was really, you know, that that's the context for that argument. But I think that with business, it's not one thing or other you want to maximize. I started a business. Most of my career has actually been in business. Of course, people know me for my roles in politics and in the media, but most of my career actually did an analysis of it, because when you run for office, you've got to put a ballot description next to your name. You're allowed three words. And so I went through my career since 1990, when I left Oxford, 36 years, the majority of them have been in business. And the majority of those running my own businesses, including the startup here, a couple of restaurants in England. And so actually what I put on the ballot was small business owner. That's really been the most what I think of myself as. So I think of these companies as primarily the engine of opportunity. And we've got a climate for business in California that's Literally the worst in America right now. Chief Executive magazine ranks California 50th out of 50 for business climate, which is one of the reasons so many companies are leaving, including. What I'm really concerned about with tech, Nick, is that you've got all this amazing innovation going on. It's mostly in the Bay Area where I live, all these AI companies. But the investment that's creating jobs, they generate a huge amount of wealth and revenue. But the investment that's building the high end, manufacturing the chips and all of that is going to other states, not California, because we make it so expensive and difficult to do business here, to build anything here.

[Nick Robinson]

Yeah, you've talked about these big companies, big tech companies in particular, being an engine for opportunity. Some people think they're an engine for inequality. Is your message maybe in this campaign, that inequality doesn't really matter? It doesn't matter if Elon Musk becomes a trillionaire, if the guys who you mix with are vastly, vastly richer than anybody you or I have ever known in our lifetime. So that's not really relevant. Is that your argument?

[Steve Hilton]

It's not really. That's a very academic, conceptual kind of conversation that doesn't really fit with how I approach this, which is very pragmatic and simple and positive and practical. So what I'm arguing in this campaign is captured in one word. Califordable. Make our state Cal. Affordable. What's that about $3 gas? Cut your electric bills in half, your first 150 grand tax free. A home you can afford to buy starter homes for young families. And so I approach this as a pragmatic, problem solving, business minded person rather than a kind of political theorist.

[Nick Robinson]

You renounced your British citizenship. What made you decide you didn't want to be a Brit? Or was it simply that you wanted to become an American politician, to become a governor, and that's what you felt was necessary?

[Steve Hilton]

Well, it's a combination. I mean, I feel. I love this country. I love California. I feel deeply at home here in a way I never was in the uk, just to be honest. I feel that this is where I'm meant to be in so many. I really identify with the soul and spirit of California, what we represent. Not just obviously the natural beauty and the great weather and all the rest of it, but that kind of rebel spirit that I think is the foundation of California's success in so many areas.

[Nick Robinson]

You talk about the rebel spirit. I'm reminded of the fact that people used to mock you for how you dressed. We're talking today for people who are not watching but listening. And you've got a jacket on, you've got a proper shirt on. You used to wander around Downing street in a T shirt and shorts without any shoes on. Now, is it true that President Barack Obama's team said get him to smarten up before the President arrives in the building?

[Steve Hilton]

I think that's a version of the truth. And I'm not sure if it was the President's team or our team. I think there was definitely conversations like if you want to meet the President, you have to wear a suit or something like that.

[Nick Robinson]

Got to wear a suit. And do you regret, finally that you might have been talking to me here in Westminster? As a British Member of Parliament, you tried to become one. And it was only because a man by the name of Michael Gove, now Lord Gove, beat you to the nomination that you're free to run to be governor of California.

[Steve Hilton]

Yeah, I think that's a fair one. That was a lucky escape. I think that was a very good choice that they made for Michael there. I didn't do very well at all. I didn't even make it to the shortlist, if I recall. I think all round it's worked out well. Clearly there's a lot of people here in California who think I got the arguments and the ideas that are going to save our beautiful state. And I'm very happy and honored to be doing it. And actually just on the clock, like people ask me, we've had a very high energy campaign and that's just going to continue. Been on the road for over a year now, like morning till night traveling this very big state, fourth biggest economy in the world, largest state by population in America. It's hard work, but I love it because it's an honor to do it. The only part, pretty much the only part I don't like is actually wearing all this. But I think that it's, you know, it's appropriate. It's a particular role you're running for and I think it's important to take it seriously. And so that's what I'm doing.

[Nick Robinson]

Steve Hilton, Republican candidate for governor of California, former chief advisor inside Downing street to Prime Minister David Cameron. Thank you very much for joining me on Political thinking.

[Steve Hilton]

Of course. Great to be with you.

[Nick Robinson]

Thank you, Nick, thanks for listening to Political Thinking. The producer is Hannah Wilkinson, the editor, Giles Edwards, and this week's studio director is Jack Wilfan.

[BBC Podcast Host 2]

I'm Kate Lamble and from Understand from BBC Radio 4. This is Rinsed.

[Steve Hilton]

Last time I was here, there was

[Nick Robinson]

a tampon and there was a condom. A sewage scandal damaging our rivers.

[Steve Hilton]

We had an enormous range of animals in the garden and that also started

[Nick Robinson]

to disappear, uncovered by ordinary folk taking on powerful people.

[Steve Hilton]

And they told me, there's nothing wrong with the River Windrush. Basically, go away and stop troubling us.

[BBC Podcast Host 2]

This is the story of how a centuries old battle between public good and private profit created an almighty stink. And who pays to clean it up?

[Nick Robinson]

Rinsed.

[BBC Podcast Host 2]

Listen first on BBC Sounds.

[Steve Hilton]

And I thought, nah, you're the problem.

[BBC Podcast Host 2]

He's widely recognized as one of the greatest footballers in history.

[BBC Podcast Host 1]

He's won the prestigious Ballon d' or award for five times.

[BBC Podcast Host 2]

He's the all time leading goal scorer in professional football.

[BBC Podcast Host 1]

And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status.

[BBC Podcast Host 2]

Guess who we're talking about yet?

[BBC Podcast Host 1]

That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo.

[BBC Podcast Host 2]

That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.

[BBC Podcast Host 1]

Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts,