← Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Bridget Phillipson on life as education secretary
00:43:47
The Labour deputy leadership candidate joins Nick in Liverpool at Labour party conference.
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My guest this week, Bridget Philipson, is the Education Secretary. She told the Labour Party conference here in Liverpool that she wanted to turn the tide on how working class children do at school, particularly for those who grew up as she did with what she called the scourge of poverty. She is one of two candidates to be the next deputy leader of the Labour Party, replacing Angela Rayner. And we're talking as this Labour conference comes to an end here in Liverpool. Bridget Philipson, welcome to Political Thinking.
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B
Hello. Good to be with you.
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A
Being here as a candidate, a candidate to be deputy leader must be rather different. Is it a bit like speed dating as you wander around the halls and the bars?
- [01:22]
B
I mean, I love Labour conference every, you know, every time I come. I first came when I was 16 and worked at Labour Party Conference, so I absolutely love it. It's a great chance for members to come together and yeah, as you say, I've been spending a lot of time chatting with our members, speaking at Fringes, did a couple of DJ sets along the way. So everything in pursuit of those votes that'll come.
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A
DJ sets, really.
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B
DJ sets. Yeah.
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A
You and your fellow candidate, the rival, Lucy Powell, back to back, having to choose which disc to play.
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B
Yeah, it's all good, all good, lots of fun.
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A
Do you remember what you played? I think Gaba, I hear, was on the list.
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B
Yeah. Last night. I did another set last night at Labour Students Disco, which is like a conference. A conference, a legendary conference event. I think the top song from that set for me was probably Chapel. Rowan's Hot to Go, Right.
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A
And you're Hot to Go and Cher, I think was played at one of the.
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B
Yep. Lots of different ones.
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A
Believe is that the theme of this conference, trying to get your belief back. Because there has been a bit of a sense of a party that arrived here not really believing, having a bit of a crisis of confidence.
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B
I think we've had a good week here at Labour conference. I thought the Prime Minister's speech really set out a hopeful and optimistic vision of the kind of country that we are and that we will be into the future. And certainly from the conversations I've had with members, lots and lots of conversations, you know, they want us to be proud of what we're doing, they want us to go further, they want to feel even more empowered to be out on those doors making the case for Labour. But I think we've come out of conference in a strong position, ready to take the fight to our opponents.
- [02:57]
A
You had quite a stark message in your speech about what you were hearing on the doorstep. You said there was not enough hope, not enough ambition, not enough vision. Is that your analysis too?
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B
Look, I'd be the first to admit that in government, we haven't got everything right in our first year in government. You know, take welfare reform for example. We didn't do that. Well, we've got to learn from that in terms of how we take things forward in the future. But if we don't make the positive case, what this Labour government is doing, then nobody else will. And we've got some amazing successes that we do really, really need to shout about. Whether that's expanding free school meals to half a million more children, the 30 hours of government funded childcare. I'm rolling out the new free breakfast clubs. I announce the national rollout will commence next year. Announced it here at Labour Party conference. That's the difference we're making in government. That's the change that we are bringing. If we don't tell people about that, our opponents won't.
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A
There's a danger though, that politicians often say it's a sort of communications problem, you know, and you're all here together and you give speeches and everybody go, oh, that's good, I'm glad we're doing that. And you remind yourself why you are in the same party together. But it's more the communications problem, isn't it? You don't just have to sort of repeat lists of achievements and hope that in the end, a bit like an Englishman talking to a foreigner abroad, if you just shout loud enough, people will get it.
- [04:16]
B
It's not just the story, the message that is of course critical, but it's people actually feeling and seeing that change in their communities, you know, feeling better off, public services improving better life chances for their children. So it's got to be a message of, you know, we've got to, we've got to show, not just tell, but we have to tell a good story. But critically, and I think this is where We've got to take the fight to reform is about better rights for working people, more chances for our children. And what I've been focused on is that real, tangible change that people can see. The new nursery that's opening in the local primary school, the breakfast club that you can drop your kids off in the morning. That's the difference that Labour needs to demonstrate when making to people's lives.
- [04:55]
A
Let's come to those policy areas in just a second. But you're running for deputy leader and your opponent, we're Speakeasia, are about to do a hosting session here in Liverpool with her. Lucy Powell is outside the Cabinet, but she got sacked from the Cabinet. Let's be honest. She says as a result, she can do the job full time. She won't be constrained by time or collective agreement about what she has to say. And many people at this party might think, well, that's exactly what we need, somebody who can sort of look the Prime Minister in the eye and say, you're not getting this right.
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B
So what I'll bring as deputy leader is the ability to unite our party in our movement. And I'm really proud to have such broad support from our MPs, from our members and also from our big affiliated trade unions. But alongside that, I'll be a strong voice at the cabinet table for members. So I'll be in the room when those decisions are being made, able to push for the things that members want to see. And some of the policies that I've just talked about there, especially around free school meals and tackling child poverty, I had to fight tooth and nail to get those through. And I've, you know, I've stood up to the vested interests, I've taken them on and I've come out the other side. That's the kind of strength of character that members will see with me as their deputy leader. But also when you look at the work of Angela Rayner, she was an amazing deputy leader, but she was also a phenomenal cabinet minister running a big government department. And that meant she could bring the voice of members right into the heart of what we were doing. So the heart and soul of Labour in government. That's usually how we've done things in the Labour Party. John Prescott, Harriet Harman. Amazing people who took the party and the movement with them, but into government too.
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A
Do you really argue at the Cabinet table?
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B
We argue at the Cabinet table. And beyond the Cabinet table.
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A
Plenty of meetings that it's Education Secretary. What would you like to say? It's quite formal. It's an enormous meeting. There aren't many debates or arguments. It's more about progress reporting. It's not really where the arguments about policy take place, is it?
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B
I mean, some of the more fierce debates will happen outside of the formal cabinet meetings, in other government meetings, but in the conversations and challenge that I put to colleagues. I mean, if you speak to anyone who knows me, they'll know I'll always stand up for what I believe to be right. I will always fight for what I want to deliver for working people. And that's what members can expect from me, someone with a track record of getting things done. I'm my own person. I know what I believe, I know what I came into politics to achieve. And I've never lost sight of what brought me into the Labour Party.
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A
Even Keir Starmer's friends say he's not a great listener to advice. And they. Therefore, some of them say, actually he needs someone who's outside, who's going to tell him what for. He's going to tell him the things he doesn't want to hear. Unlike his advisors or maybe his cabinet ministers all depend for their jobs and their incomes on his patronage. Isn't it better to be an outsider?
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B
No, because there's a limit to what you can do from the outside. And what I don't think members want is for us to be airing our dirty linen in public. And the reason for that, and the message I've heard this week here in Liverpool, is that divided parties don't win elections. How can we take the fight to reform if we're fighting amongst ourselves? The difference that I would bring is that we'll be having those conversations, including tough conversations with colleagues. You won't read about it in the newspapers, because I want Labour to win the next election. But members can be confident that I'll be pushing for the brilliant Labour things we need to be doing. More of their voices will be heard. They, and, as I say, speak to anyone who knows me. I'm not afraid to speak in my mind.
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A
But just to be clear, there's a danger, whether she wants it or not, that if Lucy Powell gets the job because she's outside, then it can be seen as a Source of Division 2 rival centres of power.
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B
Look, I think there is a risk and I, you know, members are aware of that. Do we want to focus on how we make change happen or do we want to throw stones from the outside?
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A
Now, it seems an awfully long time since election night. That's the thing that's really struck Me at this conference you have this huge victory not much more than a year ago and you were of course at the centre of that yours in Sunderland and Houghton. The first result that gets declared a great source of local pride for you. It must have been a kind of nerve wracking night.
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B
I mean it was, it was. And you know I'd been out that day on the doors as you always are on polling day, getting your vote out in my constituency. And in a marginal seat down the road on Teesside, my seat was the first to declare which was you know, amazing. I was sat in the kind of Silksworth Leisure Centre watching, watching BBC news as the, as the pool dropped and I saw a landslide Labour victory was, was, was predicted. But then after that I was declared as re elected as the Member of Parliament for my community which is but for the first time looking like Labour was heading into government, not heading for more years in opposition. And I popped past the celebration party at the Philadelphia Cricket Club then was in a car overnight to come down and speak, speak to all of you and the media first thing in the morning and then from there into Downing street and appointed as Education Secretary I think I got about 20 minutes sleep in that kind of slightly crazy 48 hour period.
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A
So as you walked in from your new ministerial car, you walk into the Department for Education. Had you been there before? What did it feel like to walk in thinking I'm the boss here, I'm the Secretary of State.
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B
So I'd been in there once before, I think it was around 2012 or 13 when I was trying to get Hetton School and my constituency rebuilt. It had been one of the Labour's building schools for the future schools and that was then cancelled. So I was lobbying to get the school rebuilt. I was successful in that endeavour. I met with the then Minister, David Lawes. He agreed in due course to put the school in the rebuilding program. But I have no memory of what the department looked like or how it was. And when you go past the Department for Education where it is in Westminster, it's quite an unassuming door and arch and it doesn't look particularly big from the outside. I have to say when I walked in, just the sheer scale of the building inside was quite breathtaking. The sheer number of people there to welcome me as their new Secretary of State. But I suppose what I also felt apart from being absolutely exhausted was just an enormous sense of responsibility. What an enormous privilege to serve as Education Secretary in a Labour government. You know I do think the very best job in government. And you mean that? I do mean it. It's such a fantastic job. I get to work with so many brilliant people across our schools and colleges and early years and much more besides, and the amazing children and young people who I want to build a better future for. But to walk in, to make that speech to the new team, to the civil servants, but to feel that enormous weight of responsibility was just really special.
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A
And how do you make it yours? Because often Secretary of State say, right, the first thing is, I'm getting rid of those paintings. I don't like the art that my predecessor had. And you get the choice, don't you, from the government art collection. Did you do something to make the building yours?
- [12:05]
B
So when you go into the department, there's a waiting room and people who've been there before will know that there's pictures hanging of all the previous Secretaries of State there. What I also discovered was that there was a bust of Ernie Bevan that was in this waiting room. So Ernie Bevan, one of the great Labour hero of mine, but this bust from when he was Minister of Labour, was lodged somewhere between a vending machine and the kind of the fire door. So I thought, you know, what a brilliant figure. And actually not just in the labor movement, but his as a war hero, the efforts that he made to fighting fascism, to defeating the Nazis. So we've got that bust, we've got it up on the ministerial floor, pride of place, where it belongs.
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A
Now, it's clear when you were talking at this Labour conference about schools, about education policy more generally, that you see its principal objectives as lifting up people like you, who had a pretty modest background, people in poverty. You talked about poverty being a scourge. I grew up with a scourge. I want to end.
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B
Yeah, I mean, it really is personal to me. I know what it's like to not grow up with very much. That's not just the material impact, it's not just the absence of luxuries, it's the way it makes you feel. The worry that people live with day in, day out, how are they going to pay the bills? How are they going to feed and clothe their children? And, you know, I'm in a much more fortunate position now. I know how lucky I am. But every day, you know, in my community and when I go campaigning across the country, I meet families that are still today in modern Britain, you know, millions of children living with that scourge. It's what I came into politics to tackle. It is the historic mission of our party and what I said this week at conference is that by the end of this Parliament, I will make sure that child poverty is lower than we started. We've made good progress. The free school meals that I'm ruling out, 100,000 children will be lifted out of poverty. The free breakfast clubs. We're doing a lot, I'm doing a lot. But this isn't just an issue I talk about, it's not just an issue I care about, it's an issue where I'm going to take action and I will drive that forward. And what I'm saying to members is that that is my number one priority if I'm elected as Deputy leader, and we will do it together.
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A
The statisticians say that there is only one way that you can be guaranteed to deliver that, or have some hope of delivering it at least, which is this cap that there is in the benefit system introduced by George Osborne when he was Chancellor. 2 child benefit cap. In other words, you don't get more benefit if you have three, four, five more children than that has to be lifted now. It's huge, expensive. Has that argument already been won? You say you want it lifted. Your arrival, Lucy Powell says she wants to see it lifted. Is the argument over? Is the chance are about to do it?
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B
So I'm leading the Child Poverty Task Force and I've been doing that work from government. Look, I'm clear about what needs to happen, I'm clear about the evidence tells us and I'm clear about what we need to do.
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A
And does it have to happen now?
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B
There's a real urgency about this because, you know, every year that passes, as children are born, as they move into that system, the numbers go up, child poverty rates increase. So we have to tackle it. And what brings it to life is it's not just the numbers. Of course, you look at the numbers and it's stark. But these are children, these are people and these are families and they matter. And when I think of my constituent who I spoke with, who had three children, she and her partner had made the decision to have three children, both working, stable, home, everything going well. She loses him in tragic circumstances, is then dependent on universal credit and discovers that she'll only get support for two of her three children. It's. Why on earth should her children be punished for a decision and for actions, for consequences, events beyond their control? And that was my life too. My mum brought me up on her own. She was a single parent. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't meant to be there. I Kind of came along by accident. Things happen in life, you know, things we can't control, you know, events, circumstances, you know, this has to be about children and we can't lose sight of this. And this was a Tory policy that's had a devastating impact on children. And we'll sort it.
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A
Does it have to be scrapped or is there the possibility it's amended? You might say a three child benefit gap, a four child benefit gap. You could taper it, for example. Are there other ways of doing it?
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B
Through the work of the task force, I see all the evidence. I look at the numbers, I look at the impact of different policies. This isn't the only way we'll take action, to be clear, because there are other steps we need to take, whether on skills rights at work, much more besides childcare. But I know what the evidence tells me, scrap it.
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A
That's what you hope the Chancellor will do. You know what some people in your community and elsewhere will say? It's not fair. It's not fair that someone can have many children on benefit and end up with more money, a bigger house than I do. This person might say, and I'm in work and I don't have more children because I can't afford to have more children. That is the moral case for there being a limit.
- [17:32]
B
Children in poverty in this country. The majority have at least one parent in work. So we're talking about people who are doing the right thing, working hard and are still struggling. And I think what this comes down to is, do we want our children to succeed or do we want to live in a country where the family that you're born into determines what you go on to achieve? And that's the reality of modern Britain. You know, family income, family background is the biggest determinant of life chances in our country, more than anything else. That's why the work I'm doing across government is about ending that link, breaking that link between background and success.
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A
It's striking listening to. And you do represent your own area, the area you grew up in. How often your personal story is at the root of what you feel passionate about. When you talk about childcare, you are talking and thinking of your own mother's position, aren't you?
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B
Yep. As I say, I came along by accident, and that was at a time when there wasn't much by way of formal childcare. And that meant she couldn't work until I was. Until I started at school. And that has a big impact. If you're, you know, depending on Social Security, then you don't have very much coming in.
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A
Now, what sort of child was Bridget Phillipson? At school we spoke to one of your teachers. Do you remember, Mr. Hurst?
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B
I do.
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A
He said it was clear from a very young age that you were very smart. And he said you were picked for a Rotary Club public speaking competition in Year seven. You remember it?
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B
I do remember that. I remember it very, very well. I think we were the runners up. I think from memory, I think we came second.
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A
Do you remember what the subject of your speech was?
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B
I do not remember the subject, no.
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A
Do you really don't?
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B
No, I genuinely don't remember the subject.
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A
Condemning the role of Western capitalism in the Third World.
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B
Well, I've always had a keen interest in social justice. I honestly, I can't remember that.
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A
I remember.
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B
I remember doing it very well because he wasn't just my deputy head, he was also my English teacher and, oh, I haven't spoken to him for years. He. Oh, he was just. He's an amazing man. And you did. But that said, you did not mess with Mr. Hurst.
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A
Sounds like you were a bit of a radical at the time. Were you quite left wing when you were a teenager?
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B
Still am.
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A
Well, it's interesting you say that, because I think you're the only speaker from the stage at this conference that used the word socialism. Was that conscious decision just because you're running for Labour deputy leader and everybody thinks you're the centrist candidate?
- [19:59]
B
No, I said it last year. I mean, it's. And it's a theme that I've spoken about a number of times at Labour Party conference, which is my politics. My socialism is rooted in the politics of freedom. So I see government and the state as being there to enable and to empower and to liberate and to give us all freedoms for how we live our lives, the choices that we're able to make. This is something that's been used by the right in the past, this concept of freedom. I think we should own it on the left. For me, it's rooted in my socialism.
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A
And you use the word in part because you want to take it back from people like your ex leader, Jeremy Corbyn. Because there are people who thought it became a word that Tony Blair would never utter and a word that Jeremy Corbyn sort of said. Well, it's only for people who think like me.
- [20:48]
B
I own it because I believe it. And it is rooted in my belief that we need a fairer and more equal society where the hard work that you put in leads to reward and where we Break down those barriers that hold back too many of our people, that are structural, that are systemic and that, you know, government should be about dismantling.
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A
And you've focused, and it's interesting that you've spoken openly about this, about the white working class, because sometimes people nod and they wink and they don't want to use the phrase. And you've talked about the fact that if the problem of underachievement amongst the white working class is quotes left to fester, you said, make no mistake, this will rip apart the fabric of our society. That's quite a thing to say. What did you mean?
- [21:44]
B
So one of the first things I did in the department was to look at the data around outcomes for children in our country. So what's the data telling us about children that are not currently well served by the education system? And what jumped out from the page at me was the real challenge that we see amongst white working class kids who frankly, often don't achieve particularly well at GCSE by the age of 5, arrive at school having already slipped behind. And I looked at that and it was incredibly stark. It was boys and girls, I should say. We often talk about white working class boys. We're right to do so, but this is a broader challenge. I looked at that and, and I was horrified because this hadn't really been something that had been talked about much in recent years. It hadn't been an area that the Tories had been interested in. But what I also saw, what I thought when I looked at that data, is we've got to take action because this is devastating lives, it's holding us back as a country. But also, if we on the left aren't prepared to confront what we see to improve the life chances of kids and communities like mine, then others who want to divide our society, divide our communities, people like reform, they'll do it. We can do it in a way that is about positive, meaningful change, or we can leave it to others who will use it as a means of stalking division.
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A
So what could you do? Because clearly the reason for identifying white working class is there are other communities, often immigrant communities, who actually have more of an ethos of education, more of a belief, it seems, in inverted commas, standing on your own two feet. Who do succeed better in the same schools as white working class kids do.
- [23:28]
B
I think part of it is that for many communities, including in parts of my own community, lots of parents and lots of young people have lost faith in the value of education as a route to a better life. Now, that's been a long time coming in lots of ways because we saw big industrial change, the shift away from heavy industry to different jobs, people having to travel further for work. Education, having a good level of education matters more now given the nature of the labour market and the jobs that are on offer. And there is still a challenge on that front because we don't have enough well paid, highly skilled jobs in my area. So. So there's that. But also we've had an education system, I think in particularly in recent years that has not valued and respected many of our kids, hasn't sought to give them good routes through. Now that's about the school system, but it's also beyond 16 through apprenticeships, technical education and beyond. And that's some of what we've been talking about here this week at conference.
- [24:28]
A
As you talk, I'm reminded of a conversation I once had with one of the Labour education reformers, Lord Adonis, Andrew Adonis schools minister under Tony Blair, and he described a visit to the Northeast at which he had had what turned out to be a bit of an argument with a head teacher in the area who, when he said, you're not pushing your children hard enough, you're not ensuring that they aspire to do better, the head had marched him to the front gate of the school, pointed down the hill and said, look, for decades they either turned right, went to the shipyard or turned left and went to the steelworks or some such choice. They might as well just carry on walking to the sea. They've been written off. And there is a central argument here, isn't there? Which is it the schools that are writing them off saying, don't bother trying because you won't make it, or is it wider society or government that's done it?
- [25:27]
B
So I think it's all of that. And we'll be setting out a schools white paper later on this year and there will be a big focus on this area within it. So it's about governments, about what we need to do to equip our schools, our young people and also wider societies. Why I've had such a focus on the early years, because we can't wait till children arrive at school to support them and to make change happen. But it's also about our schools, what we're doing to drive up standards for working class kids. But it's parents too. How do we better involve parents in the education of their children? So it's schools, government and parents together. It's going to have to be a big collective effort. That's what The White Paper will be about addressing, about students within our system who are currently not well served. That's white working class kids. It's also children with send as well.
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A
Now, Andrew Adonis was one of the founders of the Academy program, was then rocket boosters put under it by Michael Gove under the Tories. You've been accused of being hostile to it. You don't like the academies, you want to remove their freedoms. Freedoms to pay teachers different amounts, freedoms to set the curriculum. And the supporters of it say, look, that's the very thing that's making education better, because these are schools that innovate, they're not in a straitjacket that has been designed in Whitehall.
- [26:45]
B
So where we've got to now is worlds away from Labour's Academy's programme. And I remember that program really well. And Sunderland schools in Sunderland were a big part of that first phase, but there was a real focus on how the Academies programme was about driving up standards in areas of real disadvantage. It's become something different and there is amazing innovation across the Academies movement and we've seen some great work, work that I've seen that I want to spread right across the country. But I do think it's reasonable to expect that in state schools, children have a core, there's a core expectation in terms of the curriculum. I mean, I would just add, by the way, that was a conservative achievement, to deliver a national curriculum in all schools. And people talk a lot about educational consensus. I think that was an area of consensus about the national curriculum in all schools. Alongside that, you know, it's not unreasonable for parents to expect that the teacher at the front of the classroom is either qualified or on the path to qualification. But it's also because we value teachers as the expert professionals that they are, who've spent a lot of time training, a lot of time studying, and I want to continue that route through for them throughout their lives. So I think actually it's other people who are out of step if they're to suggest somehow that expecting qualified teachers is some kind of crazy idea. This is about backing education, about investing in what it means.
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A
I mean, the single, they say just about what works and the academies work. Is your point about how it's different, that it's the vast majority of schools that are now academies, whereas it used to be not a handful, but a minority of schools.
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B
I mean, it's the vast majority of secondary schools now. So it's a very, very different programme. But I'd also add that within those schools there are amazing Schools doing brilliant work. There are also some schools who are struggling. Some of them have gone through that structural change are academies, and they're still struggling. That's why our regional improvement teams will be working with those schools to. To make change happen. Structural change can be good but not sufficient. And I think there was a complacency from the Conservatives that structural change was the answer to all problems. Evidently it is not.
- [28:50]
A
Now, one of the announcements the Prime Minister made in his speech, you alluded to it was to put more emphasis on skills training, on apprenticeships, on the people he said that he'd seen in a shipyard doing highly skilled work and who, like his dad, and he joked that everybody knew his dad was a toolmaker, felt somehow looked down on Sneerdad in comparison with someone who, for example, has a university degree. Come to the policy in a second. Last time we spoke, I got a clear sense that when you went from Sunderland to Oxford University, you kind of didn't much like what you found.
- [29:25]
B
I mean, I had an amazing time. It was a brilliant place to study. But I think the difference there is a but. Look, it brought home to me how some of the baked inequalities within our country in terms of where people are from, and also how people make judgments and form opinions on the basis of things like accent, for example, or where you're from. You know, the classic of people would say, where did you go to school? And you say, well, no one telling you because you never will have heard of the school. Or they'd say to me, where are you from? I'd say, I'm from Washington. They say, wow, you're from the us. It's like, no, no, no. Washington, the northeast of England.
- [29:59]
A
I had a friend who went for an interview at Oxford and said that his dad was a conductor and the guy who was sitting next to said, which orchestra? He said, no, the number 19.
- [30:10]
B
Yeah, so. And I think, you know, a lot has moved on since that point. You know, when we talk about the kind of Blair era targets around university, far, far fewer children then young people went to university. This. The numbers are much higher than I went to University in 2002, a long time ago. The numbers are much higher now than they were then. So I think it is right that we change and adapt for the modern world.
- [30:35]
A
But if you actually come to the conclusion that people go to university who don't need to, who are getting huge debts, who perhaps would be better off.
- [30:44]
B
Doing something else, I think university still remains a brilliant route for young people. But what we need to have a better system alongside that is around technical and vocational education, high quality skills training and lots of brilliant apprenticeships for our young people. I think it's about young people having choice. To return to this question of freedom, the freedom to choose your path. So if you want to train as an electrician or you want to go and study music at university, those are choices that are equally valid. Have a contribution to make. It's about you finding your path. And I suppose the thing I would say is that we talk in big numbers about, you know, the 50% of young people going to university.
- [31:22]
A
That was the target Tony Blair set.
- [31:23]
B
Yeah. It's not 50% in Sunderland, you know, so there are still big variation within that. But also what I know in Sunderland is that we need more routes for young people into careers like construction.
- [31:36]
A
But can we be clear? Because there was some confusion up when the Prime Minister gave his speech. Has that target been scrapped?
- [31:41]
B
I mean, it hasn't been a target for. I mean, if it were ever a target, I think there's a question mark as to whether it was a target or an aspiration under the last. Labor doesn't really exist. It hasn't existed.
- [31:51]
A
And you'd be perfectly happy if quite a lot fewer than 50% went to university. I mean, if people take up that freedom, if they have a choice and they choose to do that, you'd be perfectly happy.
- [32:00]
B
Yeah, I'm content for people to make the choice that's right for them. The gap that we have in our system is around higher level technical education and skills. So other countries like Germany have got a much stronger story to tell on what people call level four and level five qualifications. That's the kind of the missing middle in our system.
- [32:18]
A
Are you nervous about saying fewer people should go to university? Because there are plenty of people who, and there is research on this, say there are kids getting into tens of thousands of pounds of debt who actually earn less as a result of going to university than they would if they just got a decent skills training. Why not, as a government say, actually, we think there are people going to university, you shouldn't go. It's a bad idea.
- [32:41]
B
Because I do believe it's about choice. But I also know that when people say that, they're usually people that went to university themselves, firstly. Secondly, they're usually talking about people like me. That's why I have a big problem with it, because who is it we're saying shouldn't go to university if they've got the qualifications and the wherewithal to do it. Who am I to say, that's not for you and that's what a lot of working class kids get anyway. It's not for you. You can't do this, you'll amount to nothing.
- [33:08]
A
That's fascinating. In other words, you think some people who say universities shouldn't have expanded, it's elitist. What they're saying is we don't want working class kids at university.
- [33:17]
B
They resent the fact that university and access to education was opened up to a much broader range of people than would have been the case in the past.
- [33:24]
A
It is possible, isn't it, that if people do choose not to go to university because there are better options available, that some universities in this country will go bust? And as Education Secretary, is that just one of those things? You know, if they can't make it, they can't make it.
- [33:41]
B
I mean, I have sought to bring financial sustainability to the system. I did take the decision to increase fees last year. We are seeing some universities considering whether they can work together more closely, either through formal or informal structures. I think there's also a stronger role for further education, higher education, to work together. But universities are independent institutions able to manage their own budgets. But I was, you know, we're talking about access to education. I was really proud this week to be able to announce that we're going to bring in maintenance grants again that will apply to college and university students and that will make sure that, you know, working class kids are not deterred from doing the course that's right for them because of family income.
- [34:25]
A
A couple of times in this interview and endlessly during this conference, I've heard you and others say, if we don't get this right, we're playing into the hands of reform. The guy who drove me here early this morning said to me, why are they going on about Nigel Farrows? Can't they just blooming well govern? Except he didn't say blooming well. Why are you just going on and on about a party that's got five seats?
- [34:54]
B
I think for a number of reasons. Firstly, yes, you do have to talk about your record and what you're doing, but you do have to challenge your opponents. I mean, that's what politics is all about. It's the challenge, the debate. And we're in a fight, but we're in your seat. Well, but we're in a fight for our country here. And I think it's a big fight, a really big challenge for us as a party. But I'm more convinced than ever coming out of Labour Party conference this week, that with the unity we can achieve together, taking the fight to reform, not just about cost of living, people feeling better off, but also about the values that we hold dear, about how we are a compassionate, outward looking society, diverse, and that our diversity is a strength of our country, that we should be proud of that and that our values align with the values of the British.
- [35:42]
A
People is the danger. Not that you've just talked up Nigel Farage.
- [35:48]
B
Well, he's out there quite a lot anyway, so I do think we have to take him on. We have to take him on. We have to take on what his party stands for and is it a.
- [35:55]
A
Mistake to insult him? The Deputy Prime Minister seemed to suggest that he'd flirted with Hitler Youth when he was younger before backing off slightly. The Prime Minister said his policies were racist. Insulting him isn't going to work. Indeed, it might just boost his support. Might.
- [36:16]
B
Look, I think we've got a challenge, you know, where we see policies being put forward, like the policy of his party, which would see people that work in our schools and hospitals, who've lived here for generations, who've raised their families here, made a contribution here, a policy that would see them deported. I think we've got to be clear about what that is. It's disgusting.
- [36:34]
A
But you can do that without insulting the man.
- [36:36]
B
I don't think it's insulting to say what he's doing is, you know, to.
- [36:40]
A
Racist.
- [36:40]
B
Yes, the policies are racist. That's. You don't have to. It's not. It's about what you do and not just what you see, but it's about the. Implicate the people you know and represent.
- [36:50]
A
In your constituency who, let's be honest, are hacked off with politics, aren't they? I remember being at the count in Sunderland. Turned out to be the crucial count on referendum night in 2016, which, when I arrived at that count, people who'd voted and campaigned for Leave surrounded me and said, nobody's paid any attention to us before. This is a safe Labour seat and they've taken us for granted. The Tories took us for granted because they don't represent this area, they don't understand the northeast of England. We're having our say. And those same people think they're doing that now, don't they, by backing Nigel Farage.
- [37:30]
B
Look, there's a big and deep frustration about the pace of change in our country and we've got to address that and a sense amongst many people that politics isn't delivering change for them and we've got to turn that around. But, you know, to the point about what the people I represent feel. You know, I represent not a particularly diverse community, but I represent a community with a strong sense of belonging, where we look out for one another, but where what people will not accept and will not tolerate is ill treatment of those on the basis of the colour of their skin, the use of racist language or policies that they think will materially damage their community. And, you know, I did a big community event a couple of weeks ago. I did them on a regular basis, had about 80 people there. We did, of course, talk about immigration. People do have concerns when they see people making that perilous channel crossing. They want to see action to control our borders. What they don't want, however, is, you know, policies and use of language that is about dividing us and the other. You know, the other message I took loud and clear from that conversation was that much of the frustration was about the state of public services and about economic insecurity. You know, the bus no longer running. You can't get an NHS dentist wanting more police on the streets. We will make that change happen over the next three or four years in government and come the next election, we will have demonstrated that Britain is a better country. And I am confident we will go into that election seeking a second term having delivered real change that people don't. We don't just tell people they actually see and feel it.
- [39:06]
A
But some people here say, stop talking about this, stop talking about the issue. It's simple political common sense not to be banging on about an issue which divides our potential support in two. Do you know who said that?
- [39:19]
B
I think you're going to tell me.
- [39:20]
A
You 2015, you criticised your own party then for talking too much about immigration. Haven't you fallen into the very trap that you were concerned about then?
- [39:31]
B
At the minute, it's one of the top issues that voters are concerned about. We can't ignore that. But what we do have to make sure we deliver is an approach that's consistent with our values and I think it's consistent with where people are. It's, you know, straightforward kind of common sense, reasonable pragmatism that the British people hold. That's where we are, not the extremes of reform.
- [39:54]
A
Now, this contest for deputy leader is happening because Angela Rayner felt she had to stand down. Would you like to see her back?
- [40:02]
B
I mean, that's obviously for the Prime Minister, not for me, if you're talking about a rule in government. But I loved working with Angela. You know, she was A phenomenal minister achieved such a lot in that year in government. And I'm really sorry she's not with us at the Cabinet table anymore. And you know, we did a lot of work together on children's social care, an area that I really care about, she really cares about, about vulnerable children in our country where we have to step in to provide support. And, you know, I miss working with her on that. We were doing a lot for care, experienced young people. I'm sure she'll have a big role to play.
- [40:34]
A
She is a big personality and you clearly feel passionately about things, but I often think you're quite a shy person to be a frontline politician. Do you think of yourself that way?
- [40:43]
B
I always was growing up, yeah. I mean, I've come out of my shell but you know, you'll see me out. We speak a lot. Cause you'll see me regularly on the Today programme, out on the media.
- [40:52]
A
You know, I think DJing.
- [40:54]
B
DJing. But I think I've got the ability to tell a story about Labour's message, who we're for and what we're about, but also to bring that campaigning effort that Angela brought. You know, she combined being a phenomenally effective minister and being our campaigner in chief and that's what I want to take as well.
- [41:13]
A
And did you really want to run? Cause he had to be talked into it, didn't you? I mean, you were hesitant. There were a few hours when I know there were Labour MPs saying, is Bridget running or not? I'm not sure.
- [41:23]
B
Well, obviously the circumstances where Angela stood down, none of us saw coming and therefore, you know, I wasn't anticipating running to be deputy leader of the Labour Party. I did kind of sleep on it overnight. A lot of my colleagues had been in touch to say, you should really think about it. I, you know, I did think about it and I felt that I was best placed to take the party forward as deputy leader and that was why I stood.
- [41:50]
A
And perhaps your biggest problem will be that you'll be portrayed as the leaders candidate. He praised you in his speech, didn't mention Lucy Powell, the other candidate, the Chancellor, praised you in her speech, didn't mention the end of the candidate. Can you escape from the difficulty of being the leader's candidate at a time, let's be honest, when people are talking of changing the leader, I'm my own.
- [42:12]
B
Person, always have been, always will be. And you know, I've stood up to the vested interests, I've taken them on. That's what members can expect but the reason I got those mentions, which I didn't know were coming, just to be clear, is because of what I've been doing as Education Secretary and the difference that I'm making in government. But I'm only able to do that because we got that brilliant Labour win last year. And what I want for members is for them to be proud out on the doors in the elections we've got coming up next year and beyond into the next general election, celebrating those successes, many of which which I've been responsible for delivering with our colleagues.
- [42:48]
A
Bridget Philipson, thank you for joining me on Political Thinking.
- [42:50]
B
Thank you.
- [42:52]
A
The point of these conversations, the point of this series, is to get at what underlies the views of the people who try to shape our politics. And Bridget Philipson captures how for so many leading politicians, the personal is the political. Thanks for listening to this episode of Political Thinking. You can find our full back catalogue of hundreds of episodes on BBC Sounds and make sure you click subscribe so that every episode drops automatically into your feed every week. The producer is Daniel Kramer, the editor is Giles Edwards. And don't forget to check out my colleague Amal Rajan's podcast Radical, also on BBC Sounds this week. Rather related to the interview you've just heard the he speaks to Katherine Burbil Singh, dubbed Britain's strictest head teacher. I think we need to be jolted out of thinking this is just a program of tributes to people. It isn't. It's an exploration and we may not always like what we find. It's such a cliched idea to say a chimpanzee. At least say an octopus or a wasp or something. There's Elizabeth Day on the pharaoh Hapshepsut.
- [44:03]
B
The subsequent ruler defaced a lot of her statuary, and so we also have very little clue of what she actually looked like.
- [44:10]
A
Miles Jupp on the novelist J.L. carr and Stuart Lee on guitarist Derek Bailey. You've got to meet the challenge of a culture that is failing the public. Great Lives continues on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds.