'Build Baby Build': The new housing secretary, Steve Reed

Summary

Political Thinking with Nick Robinson

Episode: “Build Baby Build”: The New Housing Secretary, Steve Reed

Date: September 12, 2025
Host: Nick Robinson (BBC Radio 4)
Guest: Steve Reed, Secretary of State for Housing, Communities, and Local Government

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth, personal, and often candid conversation between Nick Robinson and Steve Reed, the recently appointed Housing Secretary following Angela Rayner’s resignation. The interview explores not only Reed’s immediate policy priorities—embodied in the slogan “Build, baby, build”—but also the personal, political, and communication challenges facing Labour as it seeks to demonstrate real change in government. Along the way, Reed reflects on his roots, past political battles, his relationship with Angela Rayner and Keir Starmer, and how Labour must adapt both its message and delivery for modern Britain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Whirlwind Appointment and Angela Rayner's Resignation

• Reed narrates the chaotic weekend of the Cabinet reshuffle, his feelings about replacing a close friend, and the human dimension of political upheaval.
  • “The whole thing was a whirlwind… I had to stop thinking about all the things I’d been doing at DEFRA and start thinking myself into the role—leading the charge, building these 1.5 million homes.” (03:00)

2. “Build, Baby, Build”—Origins and Meaning

• Reed embraces the “build, baby, build” slogan—consciously echoing American political rhetoric—arguing it conveys urgency, vision, and the primacy of housing as economic and social bedrock.
  • “Build, baby, build means putting the dream of home ownership within reach of many more people than currently have it.” (06:00)
• Reed elaborates that the crisis in housing—lack of affordability, overcrowding, damp conditions—demands both a step-change in building and a new relationship with young people and communities.

3. Rethinking Political Communication

• Reed critiques exhausted political jargon—like “delivery”—and argues for visual, emotionally resonant communication that matches how people now consume information (podcasts, TikTok, Instagram).
  • “I associate [delivery] with postmen putting things through your letterbox. You don’t deliver homes, you build them… We have to talk to people in the terms that will fit the channels or the media they are listening to.” (06:50, 09:00)
• Reed discusses his personal crash course in TikTok over the summer, seeking to make Labour’s message shorter, sharper, and better adapted for modern platforms.

4. The Starmer Era: Backstory and Leadership

• Reed clarifies his role in Starmer’s ascent, Morgan McSweeney’s significance (Starmer’s Chief of Staff and Reed’s long-time ally), and the tough challenge Labour faced post-Corbyn.
  • “People were saying you could not win back power in one term… We not only won back power, we won it by a landslide.” (10:45)
• He reflects that the opposition within the Labour Party or “the real enemy”—is sometimes internal, and recalls previous fights against both the far left and far right.

5. Non-London, Non-Northern, Working-Class Identity

• Reed recounts his working-class roots in South London, his father’s job loss under Thatcher, and his lifelong determination to ensure economic change doesn’t leave communities behind.
  • “Change has to happen, but you need to support people through change so they can see a future in it for themselves, otherwise they will rebel against it.” (15:40)
• He acknowledges Labour lost its connection with working-class communities under Corbyn, becoming “taken over by a hyper-liberal group”, and says reconnecting is now at the heart of Starmer’s project.

6. The Challenge of Values: Migration, Culture, and Division

• Robinson presses Reed on accusations that Labour still seems out-of-touch on hot-button issues: immigration, culture wars, patriotism.
  • Reed insists the government’s reforms (e.g., on the water regulator or illegal immigration) will soon become “real visible change.”
  • “We mustn’t let one faction steal [the national flag] for themselves. That is the flag for all of us.” (22:12)

7. Housing Policy: Obstacles and Vested Interests

• Reed details the obstacles to rapid housebuilding: bureaucratic planning, local objectors, unhelpful regulation, NIMBYism, and the vested interests of developers.
  • “To deliver, you have to take on vested interests in order to deliver the things you want... We’ve got to speed this process up because that individual was a blocker.” (24:36)
• He is open to reforming planning but determined not to let environmental process be a fig leaf for inaction.
  • “We’re going to go ahead with the development. Some of the money that the developers will pay… will go to restore nature. So you get a win-win: economic growth and the restoration of nature.” (27:16)
• On “land banking” he says: “Land banking and sitting on it… We need to see what we can do to stop that very, very damaging practice.” (27:48)

8. Community Engagement vs. Development

• Reed advocates for true community participation—not blocking development, but shaping what gets built.
  • “People under our proposals will be able to influence the local plan… Once they’ve agreed the local plan, if a proposal comes along and it meets the requirements, the community have had their say.” (29:13)

9. Can Labour Meet Its Housing Targets?

• Robinson challenges Reed with estimates that Labour may only deliver half its housing target by 2029; Reed insists applications are now rising thanks to recent reforms and remains confident.
  • “I am confident we will get to 1.5 million… I’m going to accelerate the process, look at further barriers we can get out of the way—brownfield sites, for instance.” (30:09)
• He cites his own experience co-chairing the Vauxhall Nine Elms regeneration, arguing derelict city land should be turned into vibrant communities accessible to all.

10. Reed’s Political Identity and Labour’s Direction

• Reed’s persona is described as “an affable but steely presence. The kind of politician who makes a good friend and a bad enemy.” (32:01)
• Facing potential criticism from within Labour over strategy, Reed argues short-form media trains people to crave simple answers, but real change is slow and deep-rooted.
  • “You can’t do it overnight. We’re putting in place the building blocks for that change… We need to start showing that change.” (33:20)

11. The Need for Visible, Practical Change

• Reed stresses translating national ambition into local, tangible impact—“People are much more interested in what they see on their doorstep and in their neighbourhood than they are in some of the really big strategic issues.” (21:45)
• “Make change happen,” Reed says, when asked for a TikTok-length summation of his mission (34:07).
• “Build, baby, build.” (34:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Angela Rayner’s resignation:
  “It’s very painful… There are these events you watch on TV news and it’s quite odd when you suddenly find yourself and the people around you in the news.” (04:17)

• On the power of language:
  “If you use language which isn’t attractive, isn’t engaging, isn’t visual, we sometimes don’t get our message across—and that has been one of our problems, this crisis.” (07:00)

• On the shift in information culture:
  “Podcasts didn’t exist a few years ago… People get a lot more news from social media—TikTok, Instagram—platforms we weren’t even on.” (08:20)

• On working-class alienation:
  “We got taken over by a hyper-liberal group of people that lived in urban areas… It used to be the party of the working class.” (16:47)

• On patriotism:
  “I’ve never understood why we would let the far right capture our national flag. It’s for all of us… We can’t let one faction steal it for themselves.” (22:12)

• On obstacles to housing development:
  “There will always be people that are against change… We’ve got to speed this process up because that individual was a blocker.” (24:44)

• On developers and land banking:
  “Land banking and sitting on it… We need to see what we can do to stop that very, very damaging practice.” (27:48)

• On the mission:
  “Time will tell, Nick, whether we can make that change real, but we are absolutely determined to do it.” (34:58)
  “Build, baby, build.” (34:15)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:43–03:34: Reed describes his appointment and Angela Rayner’s departure
• 05:15–06:25: Introduction of “Build baby build” and urgency of the housing crisis
• 06:43–08:42: Critique of “delivery” as political buzzword; importance of language
• 08:42–10:13: Social media, TikTok, and Labour’s communication strategy
• 10:40–12:38: Starmer’s leadership and the McSweeney connection
• 13:49–15:40: Reed’s personal journey from “inexperienced left-winger” to a pragmatic Labour activist
• 15:27–16:19: Early family experiences under Thatcher shaping Reed’s politics
• 16:47–17:59: Labour’s identity crisis with working-class voters
• 18:54–19:46: Labour’s current approach on values: borders, culture, visible reforms
• 21:34–22:47: The role/symbolism of flags and national identity
• 24:36–29:16: Obstacles to building: planning, local objections, environmental regulation, land banking
• 29:39–32:01: Housing targets, brownfield development, engaging communities
• 32:13–33:20: Reed’s reputation and his view of Labour’s internal disputes
• 34:05–34:15: TikTok-style soundbite: “Make change happen. Build, baby, build.”

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Tone and Final Thoughts

The conversation is relaxed but direct, with Reed showing both personal warmth and passion for his mission, but also a steely-eyed willingness to “fight” for the outcomes he believes are necessary—even if that means facing down vested interests, entrenched party factions, or cautious colleagues.

The heart of the episode is Labour’s struggle—to reconnect with working people, to modernize its message and delivery, and to translate grand objectives into visible, everyday change. Reed is clear: change will be slower and harder than memes might suggest, but he is committed to making “build, baby, build” a reality—and not just for the next election cycle.

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For those who haven’t listened:
This episode is an engaging and revealing look at the personality, motivations, and challenges of Steve Reed, and offers a window into the Labour government’s internal debates, core objectives, and honest self-appraisal as it tries to deliver—and, crucially, to communicate—meaningful change.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts.

[A]

Hello, welcome to Political Thinking. My guest this week helped to pick out Keir Starmer as someone who could take over the Labour Party after the Corbyn years. He introduced the Prime Minister to his political guru, now his chief of staff, Morgan McSweeney. Steve Reid has just replaced Angela Rayner as Housing Secretary in a reshuffle forced by her resignation, which has come as Labour desperately searches to find a way to persuade angry voters that they can and will deliver the change they promised at that general election just over a year ago. Steve Reid has already echoed Donald Trump's rhetoric by promising to build, baby, build. The former leader of Lambeth Council is someone who relishes a political fight to secure power there. He fought those the press dubbed the loony left and the rise of the far right. Steve Reid, Housing Secretary, welcome back to Political Thinking.

[B]

Good to be here.

[A]

Where were you when you heard the news that you were in fact going to be promoted?

[B]

Well, when I heard that there was a reshuffle on, I just met with my constituency team in a coffee shop up in Crystal Palace. I just arrived, the phone went. We'd sat down, I think, for about a minute or two, and I stood up and said, there's a reshuffle, I better go back. We don't know what's going to happen. Went back to the house and I did just wait by the phone. That is what goes on.

[A]

It is the old cliche, isn't it, waiting by the phone? Which seems an odd thing now that we all have phones in our pockets, but there is that sense of just waiting to see if it goes.

[B]

The security of the armchair in my bedroom is where I was. I had assumed, you see, that we'd be called in, so I'd have to be at home to get in a suit. I'm going to go into Downing Street. I didn't want to be in my civvies, but it was done by phone. Anyway, I got a call, switchboard at number 10, put through the Prime Minister. He was kind enough to offer me this job and I was delighted.

[A]

Yeah. Surprise. Well, it was a bit.

[B]

The whole thing was a whirlwind. That whole weekend feels like a whirlwind in my memory, even though it was so recently because, you know, the whole unfortunate scenario with Angela happened then. There was a big change. None of us knew how big the reshuffle was going. Was going to be, but we all got. A lot of Us got moved around. I've landed up in a new job. It did feel like being caught in a whirlwind and then landing somewhere differently because it's so quick, so dramatic, kind of exciting as well. But, you know, I had to stop thinking about all the things I've been doing at DEFRA up until that moment and start thinking myself into the role, you know, leading the charge, building these 1.5 million homes, reorganizing local government, huge new job.

[A]

It's funny that you say that you're in your civvies, because famously, at least in the Westminster bubble, you were in your shorts after Labour won the general election and somebody called you up and said, where are you?

[B]

That's exactly what happened. No, I was. Yeah, I was sat at home on the sofa watching the people start walking down Downing street in the morning. I was in my. I was in my shorts. And, yeah, somebody phoned for number 10 and said, Are you near? And I went, no, I'm at home. What are you doing? I'm sat here watching the telly. Get your suit on. Get in a car.

[A]

And for you, Angela Rayner going with not just the loss of a deputy Prime Minister, of a colleague, of the deputy leader of the Labour Party. You've called her a family friend.

[B]

Yes, we're very close. Yeah, it was.

[A]

How painful was it?

[B]

It's very painful. It's, you know, because moments like that do make you reflect, because Angela's a friend who was going through a very, very difficult time. And, you know, on the one level, I wanted to reach out to her and support her as a friend, and I did that. But on another level, there are these events that I'm watching on the TV news at the same time, and it's quite odd when you suddenly find yourself and the things that are happening to the people around you in the news too, because it always feels a little bit odd.

[A]

Were you ever tempted to say, hang in there, because there is a case that says she made a mistake. She admitted she made a mistake. I assumed she was happy to pay the extra if she had to pay the extra. A lot of tax experts said it was all very complicated. Maybe she could have hung on.

[B]

Angela's a strong woman and Angela will take her decisions for herself and she did. What I wanted to do as a friend was just be there. So I said to her, if you need to talk to somebody, if you need to reach out, I'm here, you're here.

[A]

And you've echoed Donald Trump with that language, which is clearly self conscious.

[B]

Yes, it was. Yeah, it was. Build, baby, build. That is what we need to do. There are, you know, when I'm looking at this job that I've got now, the Secretary State for housing, communities and local government, the thing that we need to do to drive economic growth is get building again. The number of starts for homes have really fallen off under the last government. The effect of that isn't just on the economy, it means so much. Many younger people in particular cannot get their foot on the first rung of the housing ladder. In my constituency, the single biggest set of issues that I have from people coming to talk to me are about the lack of affordable housing, overcrowded, damp, private rented housing, the lack of social housing. It's a crisis in our country and the Prime Minister has given me the job of starting to fix this. So I wanted to establish what I wanted to do very clearly right from the start. It's not just for the public, actually, it's for the department, for the team. I wanted them to know. Build, baby, build means putting the dream of home ownership within reach of many more people than currently have it.

[A]

We're going to talk about some of the detail of that in a few minutes time. But let's do the politics as well as the fact that this really, actually matters to people. The buzz phrase seems to be Labour's got to show it can deliver. You don't much like that language, do you? Delivery.

[B]

I think the word delivery in internal meetings makes a lot of sense to me, but there is some language that I think is just kind of. It becomes a bit of a cliche in politics or it's jargonistic and it doesn't mean a lot to the public. I think delivery gets overused as a word myself. Why? What's the problem with that? I associate it with postmen putting things through your letterbox. I know that when we talk at work, you've got to get on and deliver. Of course, I Do that means you don't deliver homes, you build them, you don't deliver reservoirs, you dig them out. There's other language that would explain what we're really doing. And I think language is so important because it's how we communicate what's in one person's head into another person's head. And if you use language which isn't attractive, isn't engaging, isn't visual, in a way, I think we sometimes don't get our message across. And that has been one of our problems, this crisis.

[A]

And it has been a crisis, let's be honest. Angela Rayner going. A massive reshuffle on a scale that we didn't expect. Now a battle over the deputy leadership of the Labour Party that's led some people to say, Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Mansion, what Labour needs is a reset. Are you saying it's a communications problem? You saying it's actually just tell people what we're doing, make it clearer, get on with it?

[B]

No, no, no, it's deeper than that. Some of it is the communication. So if you can't communicate what you're doing effectively, then people aren't going to understand where you are. That's simple. But also, what are we communicating?

[A]

But you spent the summer, haven't you, looking at the way people communicate?

[B]

Absolutely, I did, yeah. Yeah. I had a few weeks off and I spent my time. What do I think are the problems? I've never felt comfortable. The media world has changed completely. We're doing a podcast now. A few years ago, podcasts didn't exist. People get a lot more news now, particularly people under 35, from social media, TikTok, Instagram platforms we weren't even on a few years ago. And I don't think political communication, particularly Labour's political communication, has caught up with a new age of how people consume and find news.

[A]

So have you the summer on your phone, on all those platforms, trying to get your head some of it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There was one morning I thought, you know, I've never really looked at TikTok. So I went onto TikTok and I started scanning through because I know people get really attracted to it, addicted to it. What is it they like? It's short form, attention grabbing, sometimes very aggressive, sometimes very fluffy, very, very visual. And our communications isn't like that. It's long, it's complex, it's process driven. We have to talk to people in the terms that will fit the channels or the media that they are listening to. My background originally is in publishing, actually. So you Know, back in the day, I used to think about this way before the scale of digital platforms that existed today was around. But we've got to adapt our comms to how people are today. So I've done some thinking about that and we've started to change some of what we're doing. So I put out. It's a bit of a test tweet, but about Nigel Farage. I did an interview with your colleague Laura Kuenssberg, just before the summer break I was on, and I did a full, detailed interview answering loads of questions about how we're reforming water to clean up the sewage. Nigel Farage came on and it was. I don't know. No idea, no idea, don't know. He should be held to account for that. So I've done a Twitter and it's saying only what Farage has said about all of those things. But I've done it in a way that's much more short form, much more.

[A]

Visual, much clearer on the idea. He hasn't got answers, you think, to the policy.

[B]

I mean, other parties like his are doing it to us. We have to fight back in the same game. We have to be there.

[A]

It is fascinating, though, that you say this, because one man, even his friends, would not say that Keir Starmer was good at short form, punchy communication. Let's be honest, this is not his strength. And do they ever say, look, Steve, it's all your fault. You picked him out. You were the one who, six years ago, sat around a kitchen table with some of his closest allies, saying, what do we think? Do we think we could get rid of Jeremy Corbyn with this man called Keir Starmer? And you said, I'm up, I'm in.

[B]

Well, you know, Kier's not meant to be a comms manager, he's the Prime Minister. We have people around us, teams around us, who can help get that right. But I think we need to understand where it is. We need to go on that. But I'm very, very proud of Keir Starmer and what he's achieved. If you go back to when he first became leader of the Labour Party, or even before that, when we were involved in his campaign, people were saying you could not win back power in one term because we'd fallen so far behind. We not only won back power, we won it by a landslide. Now we're in government, but the scale of the crisis is everywhere. We've got a flatlining economy. We had public services, including the National Health Service, in free fall. You can't fix it overnight. So what's happening? Take us back.

[A]

Take us back. Take us back to 2019. There you are. A woman called Baroness Jenny Chapman. She's a very close friend of Keir Starmer. They've called you in and said, you want to take over the Labour Party or take it back. I suspect you would describe it as from Jeremy Corbyn's lot. We think Keir Starmer's the guy. What did he have then? What does he have now that you still think he can do it? Because he's been written off by a lot of people. I think it's over.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that wasn't quite how it happened, actually. I knew Keir. I'd set up a think tank called labour together. Morgan McSweeney was the director of it and we'd done quite a lot of work to understand how you could better communicate to the Labour Party membership as it was at that time. Keir was a friend. I was having lunch with Keir and I suggested we could help him if he were to stand for leader. And he was very interested. And indeed, in the end, I seconded Morgan. He wanted Morgan to go and run his campaign. I happily seconded Morgan over. The rest is history that your people will know about.

[A]

Just tell us who Morgan McSweeney is. Because people watching this who won't have a clue, listening, won't have a clue. Others will say I keep seeing him in political news, but I never hear him. I rarely see him, but he's this key behind the scenes figure. The Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister.

[B]

The Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister. I'm very proud of what he's done as well. But he started out as my campaigns organiser in Lambeth. We won Lambeth back from the Tory Libdom coalition. It was 06. It was a long time ago, Nick, but it was the only council in the country. Labour won back that year and we lost lots of others. There was something special about him. He became my chief of staff at the council. We dramatically improved the council. It went from one of the poorest performing to the fastest improving in the country. When I was an MP a few years later, I set up Labour Together. Initially, that was to start thinking about how Labour could reconnect with the voters. But once Jeremy Corbyn took over the party, it needed to become how do we save the Labour Party from a kind of politics that I think the public detest?

[A]

Yeah, because that's what you'd done or you thought you'd done. In Lambeth, yes, you defeated your political opponents, but the real enemy, we know, is always on the same side in politics. You had fought a guy called Red Ted, or he was labeled Red Ted. Wasn't he Red Dead Knight who had defined the politics of Lambeth? The Tory press called him an example of the loony left. Something changed in you because you were quite left wing when you were young, weren't you?

[B]

I was inexperienced because I hadn't had to exercise power. I learned more by being a counselor.

[A]

20S before we come to that, though, you talked about fighting section 28, which was.

[B]

Right.

[A]

An attempt by the Margaret Thatcher's government, as they saw it, to stop local councils propagandizing about homosexuality, which do you, a young gay man was clearly incredibly offensive. But were there other causes? Were you out on the street?

[B]

I think I've been on some CND marches when I was a teenager as well. But really, what was I thinking? I was thinking, the world isn't working the way that it should. How do you change the world? And at that point, things were in black and white to me, really. The world is shades of gray. And the way you just described it there, you know, I was against the hard left, against the hard right. I was actually for the Labour Party being connected to the British people because the lives of my family and the community I was growing up in and the people across the country, it was true, were not as good as they should be. And that's still the case today. Now you can only make change if the political party, my political party, the Labour Party, is speaking the language of and shaping the aspirations, shaping the policies that can meet the aspirations of the British people. So it wasn't so much what I was against, it was what I was for. And how do we connect with them? And there were other people trying to take us away from that.

[A]

You talked to me last time we spoke about your roots. Yeah, working class roots. This cabinet talks again and again about being working class and the fact your dad lost his job and he blamed your mum, blamed Margaret Thatcher for it.

[B]

She did, yeah. Yeah. Well, it happened while Thatcher was Prime Minister. You know, there were big economic shakeups at the, at the times in the country, some of it necessary, but what there wasn't was any support for the families and communities that got dislocated. So I saw, you know, the print factory my dad worked closed down. He actually most of my family worked there. Family friends worked there. Godparents the people used to go on holiday with lost their jobs. Many of them never worked Again. And because their whole life experience and their parents life experience had been in that factory, they were not equipped to go out and find themselves alternatives. And I've been determined ever since then, if I ever got a role in politics, I have now, I would not let that happen to any communities. Change has to happen, but you need to support people through change so they can see a future in it for themselves, otherwise they will rebel against it.

[A]

You've talked about your passion and it clearly is a passion that Labour has got to speak for the people, not speak for factions within it. Has the Labour Party lost connection with the people you grew up with, with the likes of your mum and dad, with working class people? Now, as it happens, they were down south, not in the north. There's a bit of a cliche, I think, sometimes about the working class, as if they exist north of Watford. Have you lost connection with their values?

[B]

We did. You know, like when Corbyn was leader of the Labour Party, if you got a white van driving past you and you had your labor label on, they would shout and jeer at you. That was a complete inversion of what Labour used to be. It used to be the party of the working class. And we got taken over by a hyper liberal group of people that lived in urban areas and you have to represent the voices of your own base. And they were looking for something different. Keir's leadership is all about reconnecting with the real problems in people's lives.

[A]

Is it worked out that way? Because you will know you were at, I suspect, the Cabinet meeting painting in which there was a discussion about this and we read that Shibama Mahmoud just promoted to be Home Secretary, when people are lining up to say we're all working class and pat themselves on the back. And the Prime Minister said, oh, it's the most working class cabinet in history. She is supposed to have said, would those people really recognize themselves or their values in the Labour Party? And the implied answer is no.

[B]

But we've still got a hangover of what Labour became. But the point of this government is to reconnect on the things that really matter to people. It's like, you know, the health service is broken. One of the greatest creations of the Labour government. And now people are waiting months to get an appointment. Members of my close family can't get appointments in National Health Service. My dad had dementia for three years leading up to his death. He was offered an appointment on the day that he died. You know, this is a broken.

[A]

I don't think that's what she means. I think she means. And lots of working class people think you got the wrong values. They think when it comes to immigration, when it comes to what some call culture wars, other people called woke, it's all in inverted commas. But we know what we're talking about when it comes even to net zero and the importance that's put. They think you're in the wrong place. You're articulating the views of wealthy, connected, privileged, educated, metropolitan people not far from this studio in central London and not them. Given you've been thinking about communication, is that something you've got to work hard on?

[B]

I don't think she would have meant that or said that. So what Kier's just done with this, what Kia's just done with this reshuffle is that we've put in place a lot of the building blocks for change. I was dealing with water. We're changing the water regulator, we're changing water regulation, but that doesn't mean the water's clean because that will now follow because of the changes we've made. So now the phase we're in now, phase two is about making change real visible so people can see the difference of it. Shabana's gone into the Home Office. Shobana has said very clearly herself her mission there is to deal with illegal immigration into our country. I've heard her say it herself. If you haven't got borders, you haven't got a country and you need that. So she is going to focus on what we need to do. She's thinking it through right now. I've been talking with myself and so have others and she will be making announcements. But we have to show that's around.

[A]

The asylum hotel because you and your housing, job, communities, job.

[B]

That's right. We have to show change. Well, we have to show change. I don't think I should anticipate what Shyvana may come onto your show, Nick, and want to announce. But, you know, in where I was before, Emma Reynolds will now be cleaning up the rivers and showing that they're cleaner. Shabana will be dealing with the issue around the borders. I will be making sure we build the homes so that people can get the key to home ownership in their hands.

[A]

But do you doubt that those things I call values are what underlies the fact that reform now, and it's not me banging on about reforms. The Labour Party Prime Minister can't stop talking about Nigel Farage. Prime Minister's questions. He's always pointing at the party that's got four MPs instead of the party that's got more than 100 MPs, the Conservatives, he gives a speech saying farage is the real enemy. Isn't it those sorts of issues where.

[B]

You'Ve got a problem, those are certainly the areas where we have to show the change. We talked about borders, we've talked about sewage in the water, we've talked about the National Health Service. All of those things have to change. But I think too interesting brief that I've got now, communities are a very important prism through which people understand these changes. I think we politicians, I'm guilty of it myself, stand up there when we talk about vast sums of money, imaginable sums of money, for most people that don't deal in billions of day to day and about big national strategies. And it's hard for people to know what that might mean for their community. You know, when I was doing my old job, talk about 144 billion pounds to invest in the water sector, the biggest in history, what does that mean for the local river or beach that's polluted for you? So we've got to interpret that into what it means in your community. What does house be?

[A]

Quite small changes. You mean it might be a new playground, it could be a new community center, it could be. Those are the changes that you think you've got to identify.

[B]

I think people are much more. I learned this on the streets of Lambeth. People are much more interested in what they see on their doorstep and in their neighbourhood than they are in some of the really big strategic issues. One thing they two are connected, though. It's a prism through which they perceive it.

[A]

One thing they are seeing in their neighbourhood more and more and more in recent weeks are flags.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know why some of those flags are being put up? They're being put up as a gesture. They're not merely acts of patriotism, are they?

[B]

Well, you know, I've thought my whole life, I've never understood why we would let the far right capture our national flag. It's for all of us. We're a very diverse country. All sorts of people come here and we all identify together as British. It is our flag and we can't let one faction steal it for themselves. So I was very, very proud when Kier put the Union Jack on the Labour Party membership card because does that.

[A]

Mean we should have. I mean, in other words, your community secretary. Let's have more of them. Let's put them on every town hall, let's put them on every government building.

[B]

They are on every town Hall. In fact, they weren't on my town hall when I was elected. They used to. Bizarrely, the Lib Dems and Tories used to fly the EU flag. I changed it to the Union Jack because that is our national flag. We should all be proud of that. But there are clearly some. There are clearly some people who are trying to weaponize the use of our national symbols and we mustn't let them. That's the point. That is the flag for all of us. This is a country we can and should all be very, very proud that some people.

[A]

How do you do that? If on the one hand, Look, I know you don't want to fall into the trap of saying I'm somehow embarrassed about our national symbols because that may be what the far right.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

That might be what the far right might want you to do. But on the other hand, there'll be people saying. In fact, the Equalities Minister, Seema Malhotra, said the other day, she said there's a rising climate of hate and racism. She'd been told this week she was another Quotes Foreigner and quotes should go home. And for some, I do stress some, shoving a flag up where you don't live is a way of saying, you lot, you don't, you don't belong here.

[B]

There is a rising tide of intolerance and Nigel Farage deliberately stokes it because his party, he's like some kind of ghoul that feasts on fear and anger. But those symbols are not his symbols. They are our symbols, our country symbols. And we have to allow everyone in this country to own the country that they are part. Part of. Very important.

[A]

Let's turn to housing, which is by far the biggest aspect and most important part of what you have to do. Now in your new job in this cabinet, you've told us your slogan. It is build, baby, build. Does that mean to come up with another slogan, you have to fight, baby, fight against the people who don't want you to build houses?

[B]

To an extent, yes. I mean, you have to take on vested interests in order to deliver the things that you want. There will always be people that are against change. I'm going to give you another little Lambert story here. But the Shell Centre, well known on the south bank, right by the London eye, it took three years to get planning permission for that site and there were huge benefits to the community, stalled at the cost of millions of pounds because one objector put up a complaint. So there's extra care in there for older people. Those people were denied the care that they needed because the buildings couldn't go up in time. We've got to speed this process up because that individual was a blocker and he shouldn't have been allowed to stop, not for that long. The benefits that come from investment and economic regeneration. One of the reasons our economy flatlined for 10 years under the previous government is they were not getting stuff built at anything like the scale that we needed. One of the reasons young people are saving 10 years for a mortgage is because the dream of home ownership has become unaffordable to too many people. We have to put that dream back within reach of people because they have to meet their aspirations in order to feel that they are part of the success of this country.

[A]

You have to have a fight with. You say you might have to have a fight. Who's in line for a fight?

[B]

There are individual objectors and campaign groups that are going to oppose some of these changes. When I was in my previous job, I started to streamline some of the regulation that gets in the way. And I think there's further that we can go further that we can go on that.

[A]

Are we going to sort bats and newts?

[B]

I don't actually blame the bats and the newts. I think it's the process itself that was wrong. You can move ahead and develop. Of course, if you dig up some ground and put concrete in it and build a structure, then right on that spot, you've damaged nature. But you can more than make up for what has been harmed by. For instance, we've got a nature restoration fund the developers will pay into, and that will help improve nature at scale across whole landscapes, where ecosystems connect with each other. You get a bigger benefit.

[A]

So you know what environmental campaigners say? They say Keir Stubborn in particular, banged on about this bat tunnel and the chancellor. Well, it was pretty short for HS2.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they say, well, look, if you actually look at it, only 3% of planning appeal decisions last year even cited the bat or a newt. It's an excuse for not building. That's what they say.

[B]

Well, that the bat Tunnel cost £100 million. Even, you know, environmental campaign groups I speak to would have rather that 100 million pounds have been spent on things other than a tunnel. But it could have been avoided if they had planned the route so that it didn't go through that particular area. It didn't need to. They could have done it differently. But what we're doing is we're going to go ahead with the development. Some of the money that the developers will pay into this fund will go to restore nature. So you get a win win economic growth and the restoration of nature. And compare that to the previous government where we had nature in decline and the economy in decline. We do not have to accept this country is in decline.

[A]

Will you fight developers? Because the other thing that people say is, hold on what developers do, they buy land, they get planning permission and then they sit on it because they want to make sure it goes for the best possible price.

[B]

You fight with them that particular, what you're doing there, land banking and sitting on it in the hope the value will go up so you can sell it on without actually having done any development. We need to look at that and we need to see what we can do to stop that very, very damaging practice, because it damages the local economies. But you also get. Developers can be, are and have to be partners in this. So I talked about the Shell Centre a moment ago. I sat down with Canary Wharf Group, who owned Shell, and they said to me when they were thinking about how they wanted to develop it, what does the community want out of this? How can we shape this so it'll work for everybody? And we engaged with them and they ran a big process of engagement. So the final proposals, yes, there's something in it for Shell and Canary Wharf Group, but there's a lot in it for the community as well, including that extra care housing for older people so you can work together.

[A]

When the Tories were trying to speed up planning, when they tried to get councils to build more houses, you were the shadow local government minister and you said, do you want developers building on your green spaces without your say? Boris Johnson does. You played politics with it.

[B]

No, Boris Johnson did. That isn't what I want. I want local people to have a say. When I was a council leader, I was working at how we could give communities a bigger say over things that would affect them. People under our proposals will be able to influence the local plan. The local plan will say what can and what can't be built, what it can look like, what size it can be, what is unacceptable.

[A]

But they can't say no.

[B]

Well, they can to the local plan. But once they've agreed the local plan, it's got democratic consent, then if a proposal comes along and it meets the requirements, the community have had their say, so we can go forwards. The Tories wanted carte blanche for developers, no say for communities, that I'm against. But we have to work with communities to allow the development they want in their communities. But then we have to let that development Go ahead. Not block it.

[A]

Do you accept you've got to do quite a lot more? Because Angela Rado was Housing Secretary before you got this job, it was clear she was not on track, was it? The aim was one and a half million homes by the end of the Parliament. That's a classic piece of political speak, isn't it? Nobody speaks like that outside Westminster by 2029 at the latest. And the estimate of Savills is that by then you will have built a little bit more than half. Over 800,000.

[B]

No, I think. I mean, if you look at what's going on, we're currently seeing the tail end of the scale of applications that were coming in under the previous Government, because you get your application going into the Planning Committee, then it's either consented or not, then a start will happen on the building and then it's finished and it's sold on. So there's a time lag in all of this. There were inadequate levels of applications coming through. They've actually gone up for the last two quarters because of changes Angela Rayner made to the system. So we will start to see that ticking through into housing starts and then completions and then sales. I am confident we will get to 1.5 million. We do not have the numbers there to reach it yet, but we're most of the way there. I'm going to accelerate the process, look at what further barriers we can get out of the way. Brownfield sites, for instance, you know, those are prime areas that we should be building on. Brownfield passports we're looking at to allow developers to start going in there and build quicker. Vauxhall Nine Elms, the biggest regeneration project in Europe. Actually. I co chaired that with Eddie Lister.

[A]

From South London, around where the big new US Embassy is.

[B]

US Embassy, The Battersea Power Station development, all of those high rise blocks along there, that was one massive brownfield site. What a waste of land in the middle of a city. But what a story that it now looks the way that it does. It's fantastic. And we could do that in towns and cities up and down the country, without causing any damage to communities or to green spaces.

[A]

But if somebody said, I like to have it as it is, so I'll say, no, thanks very much, build it somewhere else.

[B]

If you're a community and you've got a local plan and there's democratic consent behind that, then fantastic. But who wants a derelict brownfield site in the middle of a town that is attracting drug dealers and all sorts of nefarious activity when you could have something fantastic with shops, with restaurants, with bars, with homes with flats that your kids can afford to buy. Why wouldn't we want that for our country?

[A]

I read a profile of you recently in the New Statesman. It described Steve Reed, the new Housing secretary, as an affable but steely presence. The kind of politician who makes a good friend and a bad enemy.

[B]

I hope I make it. I hope I make a good friend.

[A]

Bad enemy.

[B]

Well, you know, I will fight for the people who I think deserve to get better. You know, the whole point of going into Lambeth and doing what I tried to do is that council was on its knees and it was failing the very people who needed it the most. And I wanted to turn it around, but we did. And now I want to make sure that we get this department building the homes that people need to meet their dreams of home ownership or somewhere affordable to rent.

[A]

There's a fight now about the future direction of the Labour Party. Now we're recording this interview before we know who will be in that deputy leadership contest. But let's be honest, it's a fight. And what one side is saying to you, you got it wrong when you chose Keir Starmer. You got it wrong when you got Morgan McSweeney into power. You're fighting the wrong battles, you're doing it in the wrong way and we'd like you not to out Reform. Reform. We'd like you to be a better Labour Party. What do you say to them?

[B]

I think there's something about the short form nature of media that means people are after short form answers to the intractable problems that we see. The truth is the reason NHS is failing, the reason the homes aren't being built, the reason people haven't had a pay rise for 10 years are very, very deep. Our country has been in decline for too long. It has to stop. You can't do it overnight. We're putting in place the building blocks for that change to. We all understand we now have to make that change real, meaningful in people's lives. The pay rise they want to see quicker, time to get to see your GP or get into the hospital, a home your kid can afford to buy. We've still got four years of this government to run, so we need to start showing that change from now up. Until then, that is how we will start to take on the hard ride.

[A]

That is the perfect answer for a half hour plus political podcast. You told me you've been studying TikTok.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What's that in tick tock?

[B]

Language make change happen.

[A]

Make a reality of that word on the front page of the labor manifesto.

[B]

Build, baby, build.

[A]

And if you don't, there was an interesting warning for you. Not from a political ally, but a very shrewd political observer. William Egg.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who writes a column in the Times. I don't know if you read it sometimes. He was right about France. It's very common in history, he said, for leaders to know what is necessary but be unable to do it through giving into entrenched interest, weak backing for sensible ministers and the postponement of the most difficult decisions until events run out of their control. That, he said, is the story of France. Now the PM has one more chance for it to avoid becoming the story of Britain. He's right, isn't it?

[B]

Well, the Prime Minister just conducted a reshuffle that has put in place the people that he believes are capable of delivering. I think the experience I've got in housing and local government means I'm very excited about the opportunities in front of me. My colleagues are all as determined as I am. Time will tell, Nick, whether we can make that change real, but we are absolutely determined to do it. We see what happened under the previous government. This country deserves better and we're going to give it our. Our best shot.

[A]

You don't want to be France?

[B]

Absolutely not. No. That's been a long running issue, hasn't it, between the two countries for many centuries. But no, this country does not have to be in decline. We don't have to accept that as inevitable. We need to turn it around. It's not a job of work you can do overnight, but this country is on the trajectory to be renewed by this Labour government under Keir Starmer's leadership. I'm very proud of that.

[A]

Steve Reid, new Housing Secretary, thanks very much for joining me on Political Victim.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

How interesting that the man who's our new Housing Secretary spent the summer not really about policy, but about communication and studying his mobile phone and the algorithms that drive TikTok. This government knows, yes, it has to deliver, even though he doesn't like that language. But above all, it also needs to find a way of communicating with the public about what on earth it's doing and what it stands for. Thanks for listening to political thinking. The producer is Daniel Kramer, the editor is Giles Edwards. And a shout out again to my colleague Amal Rajan with his podcast Radical. This week he speaks to Ash Sarkar, the Marxist journalist and author, who tells him she can't think of a dumber group of people than Keir Starmer's Labour Party. You can find radical and political thinking on BPC Sounds. And remember, press the button to subscribe and then every new episode will pop up in your feed automatically.

[B]

Ever wish someone had sat you down when you started your job and said, by the way, these are the vital do's and don'ts? Stick with these and you'll be fine? Well, what you need is the When.

[A]

It Hits the Fan Golden Rules of PR with me, Simon Lewis and me, David Yarand.

[B]

Whether it's how to start a network.

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Plan for a crisis or managing a challenging client, it's all in our new mini series. The principles we come back to again and again on this show that apply equally both to Spin Doctors and anyone trying to do any kind of PR for yourself in your community, your work, wherever. Make sure you subscribe to When It Hits the Fan on BBC Sounds.