Vitali Klitschko, Mayor of Kyiv: From boxing to politics

Summary

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Political Thinking with Nick Robinson

Episode: From Boxing to Politics: Vitali Klitschko, Mayor of Kyiv
Date: January 30, 2026
Host: Nick Robinson (B)
Guest: Vitali Klitschko, Mayor of Kyiv (C)

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Episode Overview

Nick Robinson speaks with Vitali Klitschko—former world heavyweight boxing champion and now Mayor of Kyiv—about how his background, wartime leadership, and personal journey have shaped his political worldview and Ukraine’s fight for survival. The conversation mixes Klitschko’s reflections on the ongoing Russian invasion, personal memories from Soviet Ukraine, challenges in westernizing his nation, and the difficult choices ahead.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Life in Kyiv Under Siege

• Ongoing Russian Attacks and Challenges:

  • Klitschko describes nightly attacks with drones and missiles that threaten Kyiv’s infrastructure, especially during bitterly cold winters ([01:59]).

  • The mayor admits he never expected such challenges when he first took office.

    “Every night Russians try to send ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, chemical drones to our hometown and destroy life of our citizens… We are fighting to survive in our hometown, in our country, and the same time we are fighting for our future.”
    — Klitschko ([01:59])

• Advice to Residents During Crisis:

  • With power, heat, and water services often targeted, Klitschko has told civilians to leave the city if they can stay with friends or relatives elsewhere ([03:15]).

    “If you have friends, relatives outside of the city… please do that… The main goal of Russians… They don't need us, Ukrainians. They need property. They need the territory of Ukraine.”
    — Klitschko ([03:15])

The Nature and Aim of the War

• Attrition and Psychological Warfare:

  • Robinson asks if the invasion has shifted to a war of attrition, aiming to break Ukrainians’ will to fight. Klitschko agrees this is a key Russian goal, particularly with their constant attacks on civilian morale ([04:39]).

    “The reason to destroy resistance of Ukrainian [people]… to break the will to fight.”
    — Klitschko ([04:39])

• Maintaining Stability in the Capital:

  • Klitschko stresses that Kyiv’s stability is vital to the nation’s overall resilience ([05:16]).

    “Because from stability in heart of the country in capital depends stability in every region in Ukraine.”
    — Klitschko ([05:16])

From Boxing to Politics

• Comparing the Ring to the Political Arena:

  • Klitschko reflects on his initial “naive” desire to rapidly turn Ukraine into a European-style democracy, drawing on his years living in the West ([05:45], [06:26]).

  • He notes sports and politics differ fundamentally—sports have clear rules and outcomes, while politics is less transparent and much tougher to navigate ([08:58]).

    “In sport, you have clear rules… You're responsible for yourself; in politics, you're responsible for the whole team... Political competition not always clear, not transparent, and that's why it's a huge challenge.”
    — Klitschko ([08:58])

• Boxing “Winners” vs. Wartime Reality:

  • Robinson notes Klitschko was never knocked out as a boxer and often delivered knockouts. Yet in this war, knockout victories seem impossible for either side ([09:42]).

    “We actually fighting against Russia. Successfully fighting… we successfully defend our homeland already four years.”
    — Klitschko ([10:02])

Negotiating Peace and Ukraine’s Future

• Skepticism on Peace Talks:

  • Klitschko says Ukrainians want peace but leadership demands strong guarantees—otherwise, Russia could resume fighting after a pause ([10:57]).

    “We dream of the peace… But it’s very important to have guarantee because Russians take the break for a short time and starting the war again.”
    — Klitschko ([10:57])

• No Realistic “Compromise” on Territory:

  • Asked about negotiations over occupied land, Klitschko is clear: giving up territory now means inviting future aggression ([12:18], [13:01]).

    “If we're talking about our territorial integrity and to accept it's not more Ukraine, it's Russia—where's the guarantee? The Russians make this, make [a] short break, and starting the war again.”
    — Klitschko ([13:01])

Ukraine’s Relationship with the West

• Inviting U.S. President Trump to Kyiv:

  • Klitschko discusses extending an invitation to Donald Trump, seeing a presidential visit as a strong sign of solidarity and a message to Russia ([15:09], [15:55]).

    “It will be very strong signal if Trump come to Kyiv… It’s [a] strong signal to Russia.”
    — Klitschko ([15:55])

• Trans-Atlantic and European Security:

  • Klitschko emphasizes supporting Ukraine is vital not just for his country but for all Europe, tethering regional stability to Ukraine’s fate ([17:30], [30:24]).

    “We defend not just us, just our country. We defend every one of you.”
    — Klitschko ([31:04])

Personal Reflections and Soviet Legacy

• Growing Up in the USSR:

  • Klitschko describes his upbringing in a communist military family, his slow rejection of Soviet anti-Western propaganda after visiting the U.S. as a young boxer ([06:26], [17:49]).

    “We truly believe in this propaganda… I have a chance to travel outside of the country. And… I had interesting discussion with my father… I told him—everything we listen from our media is not true.”
    — Klitschko ([06:26])

• Father’s Death Linked to Chernobyl:

  • Klitschko recalls his father’s work as an officer at Chernobyl and his eventual death from leukemia, reflecting on the culture of secrecy and misinformation ([19:41]).

    “Nobody give to us clear information… We slowly became information how big the strategy [tragedy] in Chernobyl and how dangerous is that.”
    — Klitschko ([19:41])

Commitment to Ukraine

• Why Return After Boxing Success:

  • Despite affluence and comfort in the West, Klitschko explains his emotional and cultural ties pulled him home: “It's my homeland” ([21:00]).

    “I have Ukrainian mentality. I have a lot of friends… this country will be lifelong in my heart.”
    — Klitschko ([21:00])

• On Political Ambition During War:

  • Pushes back against questions about presidential ambitions, insisting Ukraine’s survival must come before personal or political goals ([21:48]).

    “Right now, just one ambition. We have to defend our future. We have to defend our country... Our ambition to save the country.”
    — Klitschko ([21:48])

• Elections During Wartime:

  • Klitschko reiterates holding elections now would be a poison for Ukraine, potentially dividing the country internally in front of an external foe ([22:41]).

    “When we have enemies, where we defend our country… to make fight inside the country can destroy country from inside… to do it election during the war, it’s poison for the country.”
    — Klitschko ([22:51])

Relations with Zelenskyy and Reform

• Relationship with President Zelenskyy:

  • Admits they’re not friends and have had minimal contact since the war began, calling their relationship a typical central-local government tension ([23:40], [24:39]).

    “From beginning the war, doesn’t see my president… We have to meet each other. And after that we make a couple of conference calls.”
    — Klitschko ([24:39])

• The Need for Reform:

  • Ukraine must pursue major reforms to align with European standards and rule of law, needing international assistance ([25:29]).

    “We need a lot of changes. We need a lot of reforms in our home country… we need assistance from our partners if we want to be the part of European family.”
    — Klitschko ([25:29])

Hopes for Ukraine’s Future

• Vision for Kyiv and the Nation:

  • Describes Kyiv as a beautiful, unique, green city with great potential—a European capital in spirit and location, yearning for peace and development ([27:19]).

    “Kyiv is unique city… very green city… We have a lot of potential to develop our hometown… But this war actually destroyed our old plans… right now we… try to survive.”
    — Klitschko ([27:19])

• Hopes for Younger Generations:

  • Sees education and a European future for his children, ultimately hoping they will return and contribute to Ukraine ([28:55]).

    “They make right now good European education… after they finish education, they come into Ukraine. Definitely.”
    — Klitschko ([28:55])

• On Becoming a “Normal Country”:

  • Even after the war, Ukraine will face challenges with militarization and defense spending but aspires to be fully European in both mentality and practice ([29:55]).

    “We want to make European rule of law, European standards of life in our homeland.”
    — Klitschko ([29:55])

• Unity Against Russian Aggression:

  • Warns of the wider European risk if Putin is not stopped, referencing Europe’s interconnected stability and the threat of catastrophe at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant ([30:24], [31:04]).

    “To support Ukraine it's very important… we defend not just us… if someone thinks this war doesn't touch him personally… this war can touch everyone in our planet.”
    — Klitschko ([31:04])

• Invitation to Visit Kyiv:

  • Closes with a heartfelt invitation for Robinson and listeners to visit Kyiv after the war and see its beauty firsthand ([32:38]).

    “Kyiv is unique. Kyiv is very beautiful city… After the war, please visiting Kyiv. You will be really impressed.”
    — Klitschko ([32:38])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Russian threat to Ukraine:
  “Putin never accept Ukraine as independent country… we see our future as part of European family.” ([13:01])

• On his emotional ties to Ukraine:
  “It’s my homeland. It’s very difficult to explain the feeling… this country will be lifelong in my heart.” ([21:00])

• On post-war ambitions:
  “First of all, we have to bring the peace back to the country. And just after that we can talk about election or political ambition.” ([22:51])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:59] — Life in Kyiv during the war
• [03:15] — Advising civilians to relocate for safety
• [06:26] — Rejecting Soviet propaganda; family debates
• [09:42] — Sport vs. politics; “knockout” wins and war realities
• [10:57] — Conditions for peace and skepticism of Russian promises
• [12:18]/[13:01] — No compromise on territory
• [17:49] — First encounter with the West; effects on worldview
• [19:41] — Father’s death and Chernobyl
• [21:00] — Returning to Ukraine after success abroad
• [22:51] — Why elections during war are “poison”
• [24:39] — Lack of meetings with Zelenskyy
• [25:29] — Need for reform and European integration
• [27:19] — Vision for Kyiv’s post-war future
• [30:24]/[31:04] — The European and global stakes of the conflict
• [32:38] — Invitation to visit Kyiv in peacetime

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Tone and Style

The conversation is frank, occasionally somber, and imbued with Vitali Klitschko’s earnestness, practical focus, and emotional clarity. There’s a blend of hope for the future, deep personal resolve, and realism about the scale and complexity of Ukraine’s challenge.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

All too often, the language of politics is the language of conflict, of war. People speak of fights and battles and coups. My guest on Political Thinking this week is all too aware of the difference between the two. He's the mayor of Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, which came under fire for the first time 205 weeks ago when Vladimir Putin ordered Russian troops to invade their neighbour. To fight is the first principle of life, says Vitaly Klitschko, who made his name and made his fortune in the boxing ring, where he and his younger brother dominated for year after year. The former heavyweight champion of the world now says he's fighting for his values and for his country's future, not least in the depths of a bleak and bitter winter, when Russian attacks on Ukrainian power supplies mean Kyiv is facing what my guest has warned could be a humanitarian catastrophe. Vitaly Klitschko, mayor of Kyiv, welcome to Political Thinking.

[C]

Thank you Nick, great to talk to you, great to talk to everyone. And I will be ready to give impression from our hometown from Ukraine.

[B]

Can you begin by giving us a sense of where are you talking to us from and what sort of night have you just had?

[C]

Every evening we keep our finger crossed for our air defense because right now it's a lot of demand from our military because every night Russians try to send ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, chemical drones to our hometown and destroyed life of our citizens. I'm actually right now almost 12 years mayor of Kyiv. I never expect we have so big challenges in this position. We fighting to surviving to survive in our hometown, in our country and the same time we fighting for our future. Every winter the Russians send missiles and try to destroy our critical infrastructure and Russians produce much more drones and less attack. They sent more than 500 drones at the same time ballistic missiles to our city.

[B]

But it's very, very cold. Mayor Klitschko, I was looking a few days ago it was below minus 20. I think that is the forecast for next week as well. You've told people to leave the city. Is that what's necessary now?

[C]

We Are responsible for services to the people in our hometown. I want to remind Kiev, biggest city in East Europe. 3.5 million citizens in our hometown. We're responsible for services. And if Russian destroyed our infrastructure and try to freezing people to let people living without electricity, heating, without water. If we will be not available to give the basic services to everyone. I asking to our citizens. If you have friends, relatives outside of the city where you have basic services, heating water, please do that. The main goal of Russians of Putin. They have idea. They don't need us Ukrainian. They need property. They need territory of Ukraine. The best dream we live to another country. But we stay. We fighting for our future.

[B]

For a long time the analysts said that Russia was losing this war because after four years they have not taken the territory that they want to have. Do you worry that this is a new war, A war of attrition in which they try to persuade the people of Ukraine that it is not worth fighting anymore?

[C]

Yes, of course. The clear answer from beginning. I not understand where the reason to fighting against civilians. But the main goal of Putin it's not Donetsk, Lugansk or Krym. The main goal and main target heart of this country, the capital of Ukraine. And that's why the Russians send we have so much attack to our hometown. The reason to destroy resistance of Ukrainian to bring the population in depressive mood, to break the will to fight.

[B]

And do you worry that he might succeed?

[C]

That's why we working day and night. And also here, also the front to make stability in capital of Ukraine. Because from stability in heart of the country in capital depends stability in every region in Ukraine.

[B]

Now many people know you first and foremost for being a boxer. For being the world heavyweight champion. Politics harder or easier than boxing.

[C]

To be honest, I am not first day in politics. I am already 12 years as mayor of Kyiv. Before I was a little bit naive. Because I want to build a second Germany or second California from Ukraine. To make our country part of European family. To make democratic country. Because the main goal of Putin to bring Ukraine back to Russian empire. We wasn't Russia in Soviet empire. And we don't want back to ussr. We see our future as part of European family. And we're fighting for our future.

[B]

You grew up, of course in the Soviet Union. You know what this is like.

[C]

I know that I came from communist family. My father was officer of air force officer in Soviet army. And I was prepared and growing up with idea we have to fighting against Americans, against capitalistic systems. Because they want to occupy us to make from US slaves. And we truly believe in this propaganda what we listen every day. But many years later, if Perestrovica came, I have a chance to travel outside of the country. And if I come back, I have interesting discussion with my father who truly believe in communistic system. And I told him, listen, father, it's everything. What we listen from our media is not true. Life quality in capitalistic world is pretty well. The people is happy, they have a lot of services, they have a lot of option. The system is not so bad as we listen years long.

[B]

Do you understand then how modern Russians people who are still in the Russian empire, they believe what they're told, don't they? They believe that you are, to use Putin's language, neo Nazis, that you are a threat to Russia.

[C]

I have a lot of friends in Russia. I spent in Russia a lot of time. And I know mentality pretty well. And I know how system in Russia work. And Putin have huge resources in the media and make a propaganda explain a liar about Ukraine. The fascist and nationalists coming to the power. And propaganda in Russia works so well. And big part of the people believe what they listen from radio, tv, from all media. Because the control of media in Russia is very important play very important role for Russian system, for Putin system. And that's why it's very important to explain the truth to the people.

[B]

A second ago you said you were a little bit naive. You said that you came back having spent many years when you were a boxer in Los Angeles and in Germany as well, wanting to turn Ukraine into a country like them. What do you mean you were naive? Do you now realize that's not possible? That you need to reassure the Russians who fear that you want to create a hostile European state on their border?

[C]

I think I was naive. I think it's not easy. You have a lot of challenges and political life. It's a little bit different in sport. You have clear rules and you have to fighting with clear rules. And you're responsible for yourself and politic. You're responsible for whole team and the team have to work and deliver result. And also political competition not always clear, not transparent. And that why it's huge challenge. And a lot of similar to sport, but also a lot of difference. If we compare sport to politics, one.

[B]

Difference is that in boxing you almost always knocked out your opponents and you were never knocked out. Isn't the truth that in this war it's hard to see there being a winner, isn't it? It is hard to see either Ukraine knocking out Putin or Putin knocking out.

[C]

Ukraine we actually fighting against Russia. Successfully fighting. Do you remember? I remember everyone in beginning this war, a lot of world experts give to Ukraine in couple of days, maybe couple of weeks to fighting against one of the strongest and biggest army in the world, Russian army. But we successfully defend our homeland already four years. I want to say thank you very much to everyone who support Ukraine, because the support of Ukraine is very, very important alone. It's very difficult to do that and that's why we very thankful.

[B]

Now we get more talks this weekend, Mayor Klitschko talks between Russia and Ukraine and the United States. Are you hopeful that those talks will produce any result? Is there any point in them?

[C]

It's not easy to ask the question of we're talking about the peace. If you go to the street and talking to the people in the street, they asking to everyone which biggest wish you have, and everyone tell you exactly the same answer. We dream of the peace and the war had to be stopped, but we're talking about the peace. But peace condition. It's very important to have guarantee because Russians take the break for a short time and starting the war again. The second point, we have to save our national interest in our independency, in our wish to be the part of European family and also for question of territorial integrity. And this negotiation is. I'm not involved in this negotiation, but it's very important to give the answer, clear answer for every question what I.

[B]

May to each of those areas, you want a clear answer. So let me ask you about the most difficult one, which is territory. Steve Witkoff, who is Donald Trump's envoy, he says we've got it down to one land. There is no compromise though, is there? At the moment you want to keep Ukrainian land, Putin wants to take it.

[C]

It's a difficult question to occupy a big part of Ukraine and all this compromise and never accept the territory as part of Ukraine and accept this territory of part of Russia. My personal point of view, it's not compromise. We have to talk about that and to find solution between different points of view. I mean, Ukrainian side and Russian side.

[B]

You might have to accept in the short term that Russia continues to occupy that land.

[C]

If we're talking about our territorial integrity and to accept it's not more Ukraine, it's Russia. Where's the guarantee? The Russians make this make short break and starting the war again. Next step, occupied more territory and after that told the solution to accept the next part of our territory as territory of Ukraine. It's also not secret, Putin never accept Ukraine as Independent country. They told Ukraine was always part of Russia. We don't want back to ussr. We're independent country and we see our future as part of European family.

[B]

You said last year to my colleague at the BBC, Anna Foster, that a temporary solution to achieve peace might be to give up some territory. Is that still your view?

[C]

It's not just one point. It's. We have a lot of numbers of points where we come. We have to find some solution.

[B]

Do you mean if you get the security guarantees, if you know that Russia cannot invade again in two years, then you can talk about territory.

[C]

It's very complicated conversation about guarantee. It's. It's discussion with two sides and I mean Ukraine and Russia and about territory. But for what reason? To give the president to Putin to give up to some part of Ukraine and we can stop this war and discuss about solution. But Putin don't want to do that.

[B]

There's a third party in this talks. President Trump and his envoy, Steve Witkoff. You invited the president to visit you in Kiev. Does he say that he might come?

[C]

It's very important to be present in Kyiv, to feel the atmosphere, to talk to the people, to understand really what mean the war, to see the huge damages what we have in our hometown, to talk to the people. It's a total different emotion feeling what is mean this war for Ukrainians. And that's why it's war. Not from this screen to see what happens to be present here in Kyiv. And it's very important. That's why I. I guess it's a good idea to visit Kyiv, to feel the needs what we have to understand.

[B]

Do you think Trump or his envoy, Steve Wyckoff will come?

[C]

We can say welcome. It will be very strong signal if Trump come to Kyiv. The president of United States in Kyiv. It's strong signal to Russia.

[B]

Have you ever talked to him or his team?

[C]

I talked to a member of team from Trump about invitation. Yes, of course. We will be very happy. We will be very happy to see president of United States in our hometown.

[B]

Do you trust him? Many people think the talks in Moscow are not about Ukraine. They're about American property deals and financial deals.

[C]

We will be ready to do it business with United States and from business case from both sides. We have to find the best way for United States, for Ukraine. And why not ready to talk about that. But right now the main question not about the business, about the peace. Peace not just in Kyiv, not peace not just in Ukraine. Because I want to remind Ukraine was one of the largest country in Europe and the stability in one of the largest countries in Europe can bring the stability in whole region. And that's why this peace not just Ukrainian need that it's whole Europe is a question geopolitical question, not question just Ukrainian people.

[B]

I'm going to take you back to the journey you made as a young man. When you left your country and you went to the United States, I think to go kickboxing, didn't you? Was this the moment that you realized there was another world? That your view of the west was wrong?

[C]

I was shocked because I growing up with idea it's United States is horrible country. And I was 17 years old. I have a chance because Iron Curtain. We as Soviet citizens never have a chance to travel outside of the country. Thanks to Gorbachev, we have a chance. First of all, as sportsman in Soviet time. I traveling to United States. I was really impressed what I saw. We was in Florida. I was really shocked. I come back to Ukraine and explain to my father. It's a real communist. What I saw in the main capitalistic country in the United States. And I told. We have pretty long discussion about that.

[B]

Did he believe you or did he think you were making it up?

[C]

No, father don't believe me. They told the Americans do it specialist city and to show the best side of United States. And after that they use us as propagandists. Not they don't believe me. But I have a chance many years later when I live in United States to invite my father and continue our discussion. The father told. Father told me. Sorry, sorry. We everybody, everyone in Soviet Union live under a propaganda umbrella.

[B]

What must have been painful for you as a young man is that he lost his life because of the horrors of the Soviet Union. He helped to rescue the Chernobyl nuclear power station after that terrible disaster in 1986 in which it's estimated that around 4,000 people died because of the nuclear pollution. Did he feel. Did you feel a rage and anger about what had happened?

[C]

I was 14 years old and nobody give to us clear information. What happens is we go to demonstration 1st of May and everywhere was radiation. But nobody gave to us clear and true information. And just weeks or months later, we slowly became information. How big the strategy in Chernobyl and how dangerous is that? And many years later, father received lakimi. And we sent our father to the best hospitals in Germany. Father was one of them who fighting in Chernobyl spent a lot of time in Chernobyl. They told this impact from the past time and clear answer. We fighting years Long for his life. But we lose this fight and father has passed.

[B]

I'm interested. What made you come back to Ukraine? You had made a fortune as a boxer, some say $60 billion. You had lived there. You had brought up your children in the United States. What made you return to your country? Were you not tempted to say, I'm better off making a new life elsewhere?

[C]

It's my homeland. It's my homeland. It's very difficult to explain the feeling. I grew up here. I have Ukrainian mentality. I have a lot of friends. I growing up in this country, this country will be lifelong in my heart. And yes, of course, the lives in Germany or United States, in Los Angeles was much better. But it's very sensitive connection.

[B]

It's what you fight for now. And now it's almost 20 years, isn't it, since you first fought an election to be mayor of Kyiv. You fought a presidential election, or you almost did back in 2014. You stood aside. Are you tempted to run for president if when Ukraine has peace and Zelenskyy moves aside, which he says he will.

[C]

Now do I have clear answer for your question. A lot of politicians thinking about election. A lot of politicians talking about some position in the future. Right now, the question Ukraine survive or not still open right now. Putin never accept Ukraine as independent country. That's why the question is open, still open. We survive. We defending our country or not. And at the same time to thinking about political ambition. Right now, just one ambition. We have to defend our future. We have to defend our country. It will be not smart to think about some position or some personal ambition. Our ambition to save the country.

[B]

Do you still think that having elections before peace would be poison for our homeland? That's what you said in the past.

[C]

Listen. Every election is competition. Competition between political parties. In the same time, when we have enemies, where we defend our country to make fight inside the country is can destroy country from inside. And that why it's bad idea. Not smart idea to do it. Election during the war, it's poison for the country. And that's why, first of all, we have to bring the peace back to the country. And just after that we can talk about election or political ambition. Right now it's not right time to talk about that.

[B]

It's no secret that you and President Zelensky are not friends. What should we talk of you as? Are you rivals? Are you enemies?

[C]

No, we from different parties. And always was not easy relationship between central government and local government.

[B]

He blames you for the fact that people in Kyiv are So cold. He says that things are better even in a city on the front line, Kharkiv in the east of Ukraine. And says it's your administration that's got it wrong.

[C]

It will be. Listen, it's strategy of Russians. We prepared our city, but I'm sorry, I am not responsible for air defense. If Russian missiles destroyed our critical infrastructure, Putin is guilty. Putin destroyed our city, killed our citizens, destroyed our critical infrastructure.

[B]

You made clear that President Zelenskyy is in a different party. Do you mind me asking when you last met him?

[C]

From beginning the war, doesn't see my president. I asked him many times because Kyiv, capital of Ukraine is very important. And I talked to mass media. We have to meet each other. And after that we make a couple of conference calls.

[B]

It's amazing. You're the mayor of the capital city, but you've had no meetings with the president.

[C]

Sorry. It happens.

[B]

You said that the time for elections is after there's peace. General Zaluzhny, who's one of those who might run to be president, former commander in chief of Ukraine's armed forces, now ambassador here in London. He says peace will provide a chance for political change. Do you think that's necessary? When the time is right.

[C]

When it's time is right. It's true.

[B]

Change is needed.

[C]

Yeah, we need a lot of changes. We need a lot of reforms in our home country. And we definitely need support and assistance from our European partners to make the same system, European system with clear rules, with rule of law. And we have to make a lot of reforms. We can't do it that alone. And that's why we need assistance from our partners if we want to be the part of European family.

[B]

Do you think Donald Trump would find it easier to deal with a former professional boxer than a comedian?

[C]

We know each other and we meet each other before many times. And Donald Trump was in boxing hall as audience by Taj Mahal in his arena in Atlantic City. And we know each other in pastime as president. If Donald Trump became the position as president of United States, we didn't have a chance to talk to him. Vladimir talked to him couple of times.

[B]

Vladimir, your brother we should say, not Vladimir Putin.

[C]

My. My brother Vladimir? Yeah.

[B]

Did you become friends with Donald Trump then, before the war, when you were fighting in the ring?

[C]

I can say we are friends. We know the shahs, we talk to Charles. We meet a couple of times.

[B]

You still got his phone number?

[C]

No.

[B]

Maybe I get him to call you. We'll see what we can do. You've talked passionately about how you want Ukraine to be a European nation. Your first job I was reading was a tour guide in your city in Kyiv when you were just 16 years old. Imagine a future 10, 20 years. What do you want your city, what do you want your country to be like when this is all over?

[C]

I use my skills as tour guide. When people come into my hometown. It's many people coming to Kiev and sometimes afraid the wild East. And I enjoy really to present the European city. And everyone actually was surprised how beautiful the city, how peaceful people, friendly people living in our hometown. Kyiv is unique city. It's very green city. We have a lot of parks, we have huge river. We have a lot of islands. We have a lot of potential to develop our hometown. And I have a job as mayor of Kyiv to change. I enjoy my job to change life of citizens. Because in central government they declarate. I am someone who is in the floor, who make changes in implement the wishes from the people. We have a lot of plans, but. But this war actually destroyed our old plans. And right now we don't have development budget. We protect our citizens, we try to survive. We support our military forces and almost 200,000 people right now. Our citizens mobilized and defend our home country in the front line.

[B]

Your children went to university outside Ukraine, in the west, before the war. Do you hope. Do you believe that they will like you eventually come home?

[C]

Definitely, Definitely. They make right now good European education. Education is basis for the. For in the life. And that's why my mission as parents to give good education for the children and to everything. They have to be successful because the best for every parent parents when your children is successful. And that my. My vision to give the best education to. To the children and to make children successful. It's home country for. For them after. After they finish education, they come into to Ukraine. Definitely.

[B]

But it's hard to see Ukraine as a normal country even after a ceasefire, isn't it? You will have potentially three quarters of a million men in the armed forces. You will spend a third of your annual budget on defense. Can in your lifetime in theirs. Can Ukraine be a normal European country?

[C]

We actually European with our mentality, with our history. Geographically we are part of Europe. But we want to make European rule of law, European standards of life in our homeland.

[B]

Can you trust Europe to defend Ukraine? If America walks away, will Europe do it?

[C]

I trust, I trust, I trust. Because it's challenge not just for Ukraine, it's challenge for every European. If someone thinks the war far away, if someone thinks this War doesn't touch him personally. The biggest mistake Putin go so far as far we allowed him to go. And also I spent 25 years in Germany. And I tell to Germany, please never underestimate Putin. Because in Putin's sick vision, part of Germany belong in Soviet empire. Also because Putin working years long as KGB agent in the dead air the.

[B]

Old East German Republic.

[C]

In his vision, his dream to rebuild Soviet empire. That's why I told to everyone, if we will be not successful, Putin goes so far, as far we allowed him to go to make his crazy idea true, to rebuild Soviet empire. And that's why the question right now, not about Ukraine, the question right now about safety in the whole Europe. And that's why to support Ukraine it's very important we defend not just us, just our country. We defend every one of you. And also the small remark, if someone thinks the war doesn't touch him personally, please, right now, one of the largest nuclear station in Zaporizhzhia in the front line. The station was in the fire. If explosion will be there. This strategy can be much worse than Chernobyl catastrophe. And in this worst case, this war can touch everyone in our planet. And that's why unity around Ukraine is key for peace and freedom in Europe.

[B]

Mayor Klitschko, thank you so much for joining me on political thinking. I was last in Kiev in February 2022. Watching those missiles cross the sky. I hope to be back in more peaceful times.

[C]

One last word. I love my city so much. As sportsmen traveling around the world, I visit so many cities, so many countries. Kyiv is unique. Kyiv is very beautiful city. Very green city, very clean city. I hope the war will be stopped and we have next task to build European country. But I want to use this moment to invite after the war, please visiting Kyiv. You will be really impressed. How beautiful city. I promise unforgettable emotion, positive emotion from our hometown. But we have right now, we have to do it everything what we can to stop this war, to save our country, to save our hometown. And after the war, I will be very happy to do it. My first job to present my hometown as touristic guide.

[B]

Perhaps when I return, Mayor Klitschko, you could be my tour guide.

[C]

I promise. Welcome. I will be happy to do that.

[B]

May Vitali Klitschko, Mayor of Kyiv thank you very much for talking to me.

[C]

Nice to talk to you. Have a nice day.

[B]

Thanks for listening to this episode of Political Thinking. The producers were Daniel Kramer and Flora Murray. The editor is Giles Edwards. There are hundreds of previous conversations like this available on BBC Sounds. Just search for political thinking. Also on BBC Sounds, you'll find my colleague Amal Rajan's podcast, Radical. This week, ahead of the Grammy Awards, Hamil's been speaking to the president of the recording academy, Panos Apane, about the future of the music industry, why artists should be making more from streaming and the threat posed by AI generated music.

[D]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft turns out to be flawed? In 1999, four apartment buildings were blown up in Russia, Hundreds killed. But 25 years on, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories because these bombs, they're part of the origin story of one of the most powerful men in the world, Vladimir Putin. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss? First time round, the history Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen. First on BBC Sounds.