Political Thinking with Nick Robinson

Episode: "How to tell England’s story: James Graham, playwright"

Date: February 6, 2026
Guest: James Graham (Playwright)
Host: Nick Robinson (BBC Radio 4)

Overview

This episode of Political Thinking features an in-depth and candid conversation between Nick Robinson and playwright James Graham, exploring how we tell the story of England, national identity, division and unity, and the power of storytelling—especially in politics and culture. The discussion centers on Graham's acclaimed play Dear England, inspired by England football manager Gareth Southgate, but also delves into the roots of division, the challenge of bridging political divides, and the continuing importance of shared cultural moments.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Meaning of Englishness & "Dear England"

• [03:18] Graham describes his play Dear England as rooted in Gareth Southgate’s project of asking, for the first time, England’s young footballers: "What does it mean to you to be English?"
  • Previous managers reacted to failure with kneejerk solutions; Southgate focused on long-term values and inclusivity.
  • The play uses the football team’s journey to mirror England’s wider search for identity.
• Symbolism of the St. George's Flag
  • [04:02] Graham discusses the flag’s dual nature: "for some, a very inspiring image. For some, it’s a very provocative, threatening image." Presenting it on stage felt risky, highlighting national divisions around identity.

Southgate's Inclusive Values & National Story

• [05:34] Graham praises Southgate for framing English identity around "compassion, kindness, gentleness, fair play," rather than bombast—a sharp contrast to global political trends.
• Cites Southgate’s method of embracing diverse backgrounds (e.g., "Phil Foden…from Stockport" and "Raheem Sterling…born in Jamaica"), crafting "a new England story that we're gonna tell."
• Noted that, under Southgate, "not only did the results increase…but also we feel better about the team. These lads actually made us feel proud because of their values, attitude and conduct."
  • Notable Quote:

    "He said, it’s how we conduct ourselves. I just find that so romantically lovely that a sporting manager...said there’s something about Englishness that goes back to that." — James Graham [08:33]

Bridging Political & Cultural Divides

• [09:16] Graham emphasizes his intent to unite audiences of differing views in his writing, resisting easy demonization of controversial figures (like Rupert Murdoch, Dominic Cummings).
  • He believes effective drama should ask: What does a character want? What’s stopping them? What do they do about it?
  • He wants audiences to see their own beliefs both affirmed and challenged in his plays.
  • Notable Quote:

    "I would rather create a piece of theatre that has Sun readers and Guardian readers...coming together into one single space and getting to hear their prejudices confirmed, but also challenged." — James Graham [12:42]

• Reflects on audience discomfort, notably in Ink (about The Sun and Murdoch):
  • Murdoch reportedly saw the play twice, leading to critiques from the left.

Personal Roots in Division and Empathy

• [13:48] Graham describes his upbringing in Nottinghamshire during the miners’ strike—a region and even family split down the middle.
  • The community served as "a microcosm" of division that persists, shaping Graham’s view that "people with very different politics can still love each other, can still respect each other, can listen."
  • Argues the power of theater is to create empathy by experiencing stories together.

The Red Wall, Alienation, and Populist Politics

• [19:41] Nottinghamshire’s political shifts (Labour to Brexit, Conservative, Reform) illustrate the fluidity and disaffection in "Red Wall" areas.
  • Graham links current anger to two decades of stagnation and eroded public spaces:

    "When someone comes along and presents an answer to that problem…people need to embrace something because on the progressive left, they're not giving them that clear answer." — James Graham [21:38]

• Discusses the "politics of home" (James Orr; Nigel Farage), acknowledging the left’s difficulty articulating positive identity and local pride, unlike more successful Scottish and Welsh nationalisms.

The Challenge of National Storytelling in Politics

• [27:53] Graham acknowledges Farage as an effective storyteller, and contrasts him with Keir Starmer, who struggles to communicate a clear narrative.

  • Observes that Southgate’s long-term vision—"England needs a new story and we're going to write it"—is something politicians struggle to replicate.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Unless you can wrap that around a really clear narrative so that every one of us knows whereabouts we are in the story of the five act structure and what the national plan is... If I can't describe to you what my story is in two sentences, then I don't know my story." — James Graham [29:21]

• When challenged to deliver Labour’s two-sentence "national story," Graham admits he can’t—underscoring the difficulty for the left to craft resonant, truthful slogans without oversimplifying.

Division, Social Cohesion, and the Need for Shared Experience

• Discusses how the 2008 crash left Britain stuck in an era of "paralysis, stagnation, and feeling stuck" ([33:06]), leading to frustration and extremism.
• Media and technology have fragmented society, undermining the possibility of a unifying national story.
• Expresses despair at the loss of shared national moments (e.g., 2012 Olympics), the rise of social atomization, and the divisiveness of online debate—but defends optimism about the resilience of human decency and the potential for renewal.
  • Notable Quote:

    "What I am optimistic about...it will always be people and the human spirit." — James Graham [35:47]

Solutions & the Micro Approach to Renewal

• When pressed for concrete solutions, Graham advocates a "micro" rather than macro approach to renewal:
  • Suggests piloting regeneration in towns ("how would I revive Plymouth?"), creating models for "regeneration and renovation and renewal," and focusing on local, evidentially-driven change. [38:10]

Drama, Community, and the Power of Shared Storytelling

• Laments the disintegration of shared cultural agenda-setting moments—TV drama, theatre, and news—but is encouraged by the persistence and growing appetite for long-form, deep engagement (e.g., podcasts, theatre).
  • Notable Quote:

    “There is something really, really important on a human level, on a soulful level, on a spiritual level, about all of us experiencing the same thing at the same time.” — James Graham [40:46]

  • He argues that theatre’s live, communal aspect exemplifies the continued need for togetherness and shared stories.
• Concludes the episode on a note of "naive optimism":
  • "It's in our DNA, it's in our nature, but it is how we're probably going to survive the crisis." — James Graham [43:29]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Southgate’s inclusive national story:

  "Being vulnerable, being kind, being compassionate, being decent, those were his English values." — James Graham [05:43]

• On drama’s role:

  "It's about every single play, or every single good play, I think, asks three questions of its character. What do they want? What's stopping them from getting it? So what do they try to do in order to get it?" — James Graham [09:40]

• On left-right unity:

  "If that can't unify the progressive left and the conservative right—good behavior—then what can?" — James Graham [08:46]

• On polarization:

  "We take everything somebody says in bad faith, that they're trying to take something from you...it turns us all into...indecent and binary people." — James Graham [17:47]

• On "the politics of home":

  "The idea that wanting to be proud of your community...is not parochial, it's not small. It's the fundamental unit by which most of us experience life." — James Graham [23:31]

• On the social consequences of the 2008 crash:

  "We are still limping on...and it feels the life we’re living through now feels defined by paralysis, stagnation, and feeling stuck." — James Graham [33:49]

• On hope for community and theatre:

  "That appetite for theatre is not going away and in many ways is getting more popular because people do want to invest in something more meaningful than just a Tweet or a YouTube clip." — James Graham [43:15]

Important Timestamps

• [03:18] – Why Dear England asks "What does it mean to be English?"
• [05:34] – Southgate’s method: values, inclusivity, and complex identity in football
• [12:42] – Graham on including all sides in his storytelling
• [13:48] – How family division (miners’ strike) shaped his worldview
• [19:41] – The Red Wall story—the shift from Labour to Brexit to Reform
• [27:53] – Storytelling power of Farage vs. Starmer’s shortcomings
• [33:06] – National stagnation since 2008
• [35:41] – Graham’s enduring optimism and faith in people
• [38:10] – Advocating for micro-level regeneration ("start small")
• [40:46] – The irreplaceable value of communal cultural moments
• [43:29] – Final note of optimism: communal experience as survival

Closing Thoughts

James Graham and Nick Robinson deliver a thoughtful, nuanced conversation about England’s struggles and hopes for national cohesion, as refracted through football, political storytelling, and the arts. Graham’s advocacy for empathy, complex storytelling, shared experience, and cautious optimism underlines the ongoing challenge of telling—and living—England’s story.