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Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
'It's been a whirlwind': Zack Polanski on storytelling, Zionism and Zackonomics
00:54:02
Nick Robinson talks to Zack Polanski about early life and his rapid rise to political fame
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Hello, and welcome to Political Thinking. A conversation with and not an interrogation of someone who shapes our political thinking about what shaped theirs. Few people have done more in recent months to shape our politics than my guest this week, Zach Polanski. He's not just transformed the fortune of the Green Party, he now leads, securing its first ever victory in a Westminster by election and going ahead of Labour in some opinion polls. He's transformed the Greens outlook, too. Polanski speaks of himself not just as a Green, but as a socialist and determined to dismantle the structures he says, proper wealth and power. It's a long way from the views he once had as an activist for the Liberal Democrats after they'd joined the Conservatives in government and after they'd imposed austerity on the country. He's been on a personal as well as a political journey. Brought up in a Jewish household, he now leads a party that denounces Israel as a racist state. He's made a huge impact, even though he's not, not yet a Member of Parliament. Zach Polanski, welcome to Political Thinking.
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B
Thank you very much for having me.
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A
You've only been leader for six months. It has been an extraordinary ride. You've gone from being almost entirely unknown, even here in Westminster, to being really rather famous. How's it for you?
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B
I mean, it's been an absolute whirlwind and it's been a tale of two parts, really. One part has been nothing but beautiful and inspiring. The amount of people who stop me on the street or on the tube or even the other day I stopped a red light on my bike and someone ran over to tell me they'd see me on social media and they were from Canada. And so there's lots of people who are saying that they're feeling hopeful for the very first time or for the first time in a long time. And that resonates with me, because I feel hopeful, too. I'm a member of the Green Party as well. That's balanced, though, with how difficult things are in our country right now, global turmoil that's happening around the world. So, yes, I'm having a great time. But also it's a responsibility I take really seriously.
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A
Are there downsides, though, as people rush up to you on your bike or wherever you are? I mean, does it make it a struggle with your partner to go to the bar, even go shopping? Are there downsides to this sort of fame?
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B
Well, it's interesting. In the first or second week, I said to my boyfriend, do you think I need to get a disguise, like a cap and some sunglasses? And I wore some and went walking around Walthamstow Wetlands, and I still got recognized.
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A
What was the disguise? I'm intrigued. Shades.
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B
I don't. It was literally just some sunglasses and a hat. He said it wasn't a very good disguise, but I was convinced that it was, you know, MI5, James Bond levels. But it clearly wasn't, because almost within 30 seconds, someone went, zack. And came over and chatted. But after the conversation, I had a chat with my boyfriend where I said, why, actually am I trying to disguise myself? I love speaking to people. People hopefully enjoy speaking to me. And, yes, if you're in a rush, it can be a little bit flustering if someone says, can I have a selfie? And you want to give everyone the best version of yourself. And also you're trying to get to an interview or get somewhere, but. But 99.9% of the time, I can say hand on heart, I love it when someone comes and chats to me, so please keep doing it.
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A
You talked about hope and it's a word you use a lot. And we'll talk about a lot as well. What are you hoping for? Not the whole manifesto, please. But I meant for you and for the Greens. Is it a slice of power? Is it a lot of influence? Is it particular change? What are you hoping for?
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B
I actually think it's all three of those things. So if I break it down very slowly, I think it's winning a lot more MPs, so we're a lot more electorally successful as well as local councillors.
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A
Yeah, just pausing on that. I mean, at one stage, for much of my political career, you had one right then, now five. You're talking a lot, are you?
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B
Well, I was talking about 30 to 40 when I ran for leader, and that felt very ambitious to journalists, understandably, to go from four at that time to 30 now, saying that it feels under ambitious. And actually, as our poll ratings are tripling, we're getting more and more members. When I became or when I ran for leader, we had about 55,000 members. We. We've just hit over 220,000. So it's looking, you know, members don't necessarily equal seats, but it doesn't harm having people out on the ground.
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A
Have you even got to the stage where you can think, I could actually be Prime Minister?
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B
That really isn't the target right now. And it's because.
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A
No, I get that. But I just wonder if it's ever in your mind.
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B
It's definitely in my mind. Cause I get asked about it all the time. But my burning ambition really is to have a wealth tax action on the climate and proportional representation. I think a change to the voting system is a huge prize.
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A
The reason I push you slightly on it is there's been plenty of people who really make change in politics. We might talk in a while about Tony Benn, who's someone who's a bit of a hero of yours, but they never thought they were going to be Prime Minister or not in his later days anyway. But you think, yeah, it's not the immediate goal, it's not what absolutely motivates you, but you think, I could be.
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B
It's so tempting to be drawn in, but actually I'm genuinely focusing on the next step. And the next step is, is to win a lot more MPs, potentially hold the balance of power. And then I think that's really interesting because you're having conversations about proportional representation, a wealth tax, climate action and various other policies to reduce people's cost of living and make life better for everyone in this country.
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A
When I was reading up about you, I was intrigued by a phrase you used to describe yourself when you ran for Green Leader all those months ago. All six of them. Storyteller. Right. You said we've got MPs are a scientist, an engineer, a renewables expert, a former mep. We don't have storytellers, you said, why that word?
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B
I think it's so important because one of the biggest obstacles, I think, to making change in this country is the idea that people have told us that any kind of change is impossible, is not pragmatic, is not idealistic. You're a dreamer. And actually I think there's a real role for arts and culture with science because it actually has to be able to work and you need to make sure you've got your info and your stats. But Actually, we can't just get stuck in maths and numbers. That doesn't resonate with people. You really need to connect with people with their hearts, with their hopes, with their desires and indeed their fears in an appropriate way.
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A
But are you, in a sense saying that politics, and that may be people like me as well, who do political interviews, get bogged down in 3.2 billion this, 500,000 that, the story, the tale is important?
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B
Well, I think both are important. I think it's really important to get bogged down on the detail, because then really, you're talking about a plan. And I gave a speech this week about my economic plan, and so there was very little storytelling that was actually about what practically do I want to see for the changes in this country. There's lots of other times, though, where there's less detail and it's more about the story and the vision. And I think you need both sides at different times.
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A
Well, we're going to come to that speech. We're going to come to some stories, as it were, that you want to tell the country about what can change, in a sense. Can we start with. With your story? You're the son of a storyteller, you're the son of an actor, your mum, Ava, who clearly had a big influence on you because you went on to become an actor.
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think anyone is influenced by their parents. And actually my dad for a long time worked in theaters as a lighting designer as well. And growing up, going to the theater was something that my parents often took me to. They got divorced when I was quite young. It was a pretty horrible time, I think, as it is for any child with their parents getting divorced. And actually, one of the biggest places where I found refuge was in the school drama club. And the idea of being able to disappear to other places for everyone to be equal for a short amount of time, to forget about the problems that were going on at home and just enjoy finding confidence on a stage is one of the reasons now I'm so passionate about every young person getting those transferable skills.
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A
Confidence is interesting. You mean, in a sense that the trauma of a divorce, watching people you love, your mum and dad fall out, that you needed, in a sense, not to feel to blame for what was going on?
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B
Yeah, I mean, the divorce absolutely destroyed me at that time. I think that is a story that so many young people, and even as adults, can still carry when they come from a broken home. Now, I'm not being hyperbolic about it. I think there's lots of People who have much worse experiences of divorce. But I think divorce is almost always sad for a young person. And I think there was a sense as well, of, I don't understand why this is happening or all of those questions of, have I done something wrong? You see Mum and Dad arguing and you just don't know how to make it stop. And I think being able to escape was incredibly important.
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A
Now, tell us a little bit about the home, my part of the world. You're in Salford, near Manchester. It's a traditional Jewish home. You've often said, does that mean Shabbat dinner, Friday night dinner? In other words, does it mean going to shul synagogue on a Saturday morning? Does it mean wearing the yamilku, wearing a skull cap?
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B
Yeah, I did wear a yarmulke at school. I had a bar mitzvah. I went to Cheder, which is for weekend kind of learning school. And Pesach, which is Passover, was a regular kind of fixture of family life. And I still engage in those traditions. In fact, there's a group called namod, who are a lot of British Jews who get together, who are particularly united against the occupation of Palestine, but also want to maintain our traditions with our Jewish heritage. And actually, when I go to those traditions and I have those meals and engage in the same dances and the same prayers, a beautiful moment of recollection, of growing up within those traditions, and I'm really proud to be Jewish.
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A
That remains very important to you. You've also called it a Zionist household. We're going to come on to the politics of Israel later and our position on that and Gaza. But what do you mean as Zionist household?
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B
Well, so I went to a Jewish school, King David, and although it was a Jewish school, it was without a doubt, throughout the politics of the school, that Israel was something that was a source of pride within the school. And indeed, both in my family and in the community I grew up in, it wasn't even questioned. Israel was kind of the great hope. And the thing that you look to maybe even moving there one day was a lot of people's dreams in the communities or the community that I grew up. And I think as a young person, I shouldn't say young people never question things, but I can only speak from my personal experience. I didn't question that it was what I grew up in, it was what I was surrounded in. And again, I think that's a very common experience to young Jewish people in Manchester, in London, in part because of
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A
your own family story. So many families, Jewish families, either have a story of fleeing the Holocaust or of the pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe. And that was your family story?
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B
Yes. And I think when I think about learning history at school, at primary school, the Holocaust was a constant source of discussion, and it was a constant source of both family trauma, but generational trauma. The story about the pogroms is actually a story I found out more recently as I started to research my family history. But also a very common experience to Jewish ancestry is it's not quite clear, because very often names were changed. They weren't quite clear. I famously changed my name back to Polanski. I've since found out it was potentially Polinsky. I said, I'm not changing it for a second time. But again, that's quite a common experience that people aren't quite sure, because when they were written down to escape the Nazis, it was done in a rush.
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A
You say famously. I think there'll be lots of people who don't know that story, be quite surprised by that. You were, as a young man, not Zach Polanski. You weren't David Polanski. You were, in fact, David Paulden. Why did you change not just one name but both? Were you, in a sense, trying to recapture your past, the Jewish past, or to cast aside something that you didn't like?
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B
Well, I think there's two reasons for the difference. So my first name is a difficult story to talk about in public, so I'll only give small amounts of details and I can imagine the audience can fill in the gaps. But my mum, once we were divorced, got married to a man called David. He was my stepfather. Me and David, it's fair to say, were not close. He's now died. So this is why I don't want to speak ill of him. But people would often say you're talking about Big David or Little David. And I hated being the little version of a man that I did not get on with.
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A
You're clear you don't want me to intrude in that. But you're not just saying you didn't get on, are you? You're saying that that was a trauma.
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B
Well, again, I think it's not right to speak about people who can't defend themselves. So it's really something. I'm not evading the question, but I think out of respect to people who can't defend themselves, I should let that one be.
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A
But it was bad enough you didn't want to have his name right?
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B
Exactly that. And in terms of Polanski, that was my family's name coming from Ukraine and then going through Poland. And then when they arrived in the uk, I always thought the story had been I grew up learning that they changed the name to evade the Nazis. As an adult at 18, I found out they actually changed it because they arrived in the UK and faced antisemitism in the uk. And when I heard that story, I thought, well, I'm not facing antisemitism now. It was round about, well, a few years after I'd come out as a gay man and it just felt important to reclaim pride in my identity rather than feeling like I was hiding the shadows or shame.
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A
What's so fascinating about that and your openness to describe your Jewish heritage and your passion about Judaism is that as I alluded to in the introduction, you have become someone very, very critical of Israel. What happened?
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B
One of the big things that happened was I met a group called Breaking the Silence. Now this is a group of ex IDF soldiers who are speaking out against the occupation of Palestine. And when I met them I felt deeply uncomfortable because the things they were saying I kept questioning or trying to find answers for. And after that meeting, I went away. I listened to more people, I read more. And it's not almost like I instantly became very critical of the Israeli government, but it set me off on a road and I think the Israel's genocide in Gaza and I know we'll get into a conversation about definitions, but even if you just call it the mass killing of lots of innocent people, I think has demonstrated exactly what they were saying to me.
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A
The word of course matters and I don't want to have a debate about the word, but I do want it noted that no court has said it's genocide and Israel completely rejects the idea it's genocide. But as you say, you call it mass killing. You also call it.
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I feel need to respond though that Amnesty International, various human rights organizations and the UN Special Rapporteur, as well as lots and lots of genocide scholars.
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In a sense, I don't want to drag us into a debate about language, but it's only fair to point that out so you become knowledgeable of moved by the plight of Palestinians. But you go further than that. You see the Green Party Conference is about to have a vote on a motion called Zionism is Racism. Now what do you understand Zionism to be? Because I understand it. Almost all Jews I know understand it mean the idea of a safe homeland for Jews somewhere that for your relatives, as it happens for mine, is a safe homeland.
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B
Well, I want to answer the question But I also want to challenge the presupposition of the question because I think for lots of Jewish people, Zionism means a lot of different things, and of course for the non Jewish community too. But let's talk about the Jewish community. There was also polling out in the last couple of months that showed increasingly British Jews are now voting for the Green Party and indeed Reform. So I think the kind of mainstream discourse where this is at is often wrong. But let me take it on anyway,
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A
just so we get to the point, as it were. The point is, is Zionism? Is the belief in a Jewish state racist? Because that's what it says on that motion.
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B
I don't think the idea of a Jewish state is necessarily racist. What I think is happening, though right now is a certain type of Zionism by Benjamin Netanyahu that I've said I believe is genocidal. So it's clearly racist. I also think the beginnings of Zionism had lots of racial undertones, particularly the Nabqa, the displacement of the Palestinians from their homeland. I also think, and this is why
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A
definition is a word used in Arabic usually to describe the fact that hundreds of thousands of people were forced to leave their homes when the state of Israel was created.
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B
Absolutely. I also think, and this is where it gets very complex and nuanced and I think the conversation about definitions is unhelpful, but I'm still happy to have a conversation is there were Jewish people or Zionists at that time that I would say weren't racist. We had Bundists, for instance, who described themselves as non Zionist but socialists. There were also Zionists who believed in the homeland but didn't believe it should be in the Palestinian state. And so I am reluctant to use a word that has so many descriptions and say that it's racist.
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A
But if it's racist. So you're trying to argue against that, Moshe, or nuance it?
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B
Well, I think the nuance needs to happen. And that's exactly why I've been talking about, if we're talking about what's happening right now, and I think that's the important conversation.
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A
Well, forgive me, it is and it isn't. Because I want to put to you that for some people these words do matter. I mean, at the moment, One of your MPs is supporting a campaign to create what's called an apartheid free zone in Bristol. And what happens is campaigners go door to door with the support of Carla Denier, one of your MPs in Bristol, and they ask people to boycott Israeli fruit goods purchases of all sorts. Some of those people wear the keffiyeh, the Arabic scarf. They take notes as to whether you agree with them or you don't. I'm sorry to put it bluntly, but how do you think an elderly Jewish woman would feel answering the door to someone and being told, are you in favor of Israel or are you against Israel?
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B
Well, I know lots of elderly Jewish women whose hearts are absolutely breaking at what this Israeli government is doing, and they're doing it in our name. Carla Danya doesn't have just my full support, but actually my pride. I think door to door counts.
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A
Something personal. How would your mother feel?
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B
Well, I'm not going to answer a personal question.
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A
How would someone like your mother feel?
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B
I think families all the time have very difficult conversations around dinner tables, around what the Israeli government are doing in Jewish people's names.
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A
Forgive me, I'm not meaning to interrupt. I'm meaning to get to the point. The point is these arguments about what words mean, what motions at conferences mean, they're for the birds. If you're scared and you come from a family that knows what fear is, the fear of anti Jewish persecution. So that's why I ask you, what is it like having somebody come to your door and demand to know that you are anti Israel? And if you're Jewish and disagree with you, people are entitled to disagree. And they say, actually, I think it's my homeland. Do you think, can I say this? Will they write it down? What will happen to me afterwards? It's not right, is it?
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B
Well, if I can be as direct back with you, Nick, I think the media, including yourself in that question, are doing the scaremongering. Actually, door to door canvassing is a perfectly normal model in our political discourse. It's happened for generations. This is not asking Jewish people, it's not specifically targeting Jewish people. It's not asking about Jewish people. It's asking about a genocide that's being conducted in our name in terms of the British government who are supplying arms and intelligence to Israel. And I think apartheid and apartheid free zones have been a cornerstone of our democracy, whether it's through the civil rights movement in South Africa, apartheid, whether it's been through various movements. And I think it is an important part of a democracy that's not about intimidating people, that's about having a political conversation.
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A
But you said.
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B
Sorry, if I could just finish, though, if you can't knock on someone's door and have a political conversation with them, we'd lose most of our democracy. And so I think it's important that we don't scare monger about that. That's about having political discourse.
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Last thoughts on this. When we talk about race and racism, it's usually said by liberals, and you would regard yourself as a small L liberal. What matters is how people feel. There's no use saying, well, I didn't really mean it in a racist way. If there are Jews, and I tell you there are, who find that frightening and intimidating at a time that antisemitism's at an all out high, aren't they entitled to say, goodness me, how doesn't Zach Polanski listen to us?
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B
Yes, and I'm entitled to have that conversation with them because I speak to Jewish people who are scared right now. And anti Semitism is on the rise, as is Islamophobia. And I recognize those as two sides of the same coin. We need to do a lot of work as politicians to bring communities together to have difficult and transparent conversations. But I think you can only do that if you engage with people and you don't scaremonger.
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A
Now, you talked about how you reached the views you've got on Israel and on Gaza, partly through meeting IDF soldiers. And this was partly another important part of your personal journey, wasn't it? Becoming an actor yourself, taking part in something called the Theatre of the Oppressed. I've seen it described as rehearsing the revolution. Was it very political? Is that what it was like?
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B
It didn't feel party political. And in fact, when I was doing it, if you tried to talk to me about party politics, I think I would have been either incredibly bored or dismissive. And when I got into politics, I was almost ashamed and embarrassed about that. There was that sense of, oh, I'm not particularly political, so why am I doing this? And the reason why I talk about that very openly now is because there's lots of people who wouldn't dream of listening to political conversations, but are also inherently political and I think we need to reach out to them. The key about Theatre of the Oppress, though, is you're going to communities that feel that they don't have a voice or don't have a voice, are marginalized, who feel oppressed and making sure that you're working with them through theater techniques to be able to find their voice, to find their agency in power. And that's run throughout everything I've done as a politician.
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A
Were you in a sense, finding your voice and agency in power? We talked about being unhappy at home, you were very unhappy at school, you were bullied at School. You've talked about that. You, in part because you were a gay young man, you came out, what, at the age of 14. Did you feel, in a sense that these were people who understood what you'd been through?
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B
Yeah, I think there's definitely an empathic relationship that you make with people. But by the way, I still feel like I'm finding my voice and power every day at the moment, and I think I want everyone to do that, because I think unless you come from a very wealthy elite, we've all been told that we don't have a voice and we don't have power. And the number one thing I want to do in politics, and I really mean the number one thing, is I want every single person in this country to find their voice and power. Because when we work together in solidarity, in community, I believe that's when we're unstoppable.
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A
Just tell me a little bit about that experience, though, being at school, being bullied because of your sexuality.
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B
It was awful. And I know that it still goes on today. And I think sometimes I worry. In our conversation, it's almost like we've eliminated homophobia. And I still know there's lots of young people, particularly young trans people, who are facing huge amounts of discrimination as a young gay man. Speaking personally, there are lots of things in school that I absolutely dreaded. PE classes being the most obvious. I used to go sit in the toilet cubicle. Even if it was a double PE lesson for an hour or two. The positive side of that was I'd take a torch and a book and I'd just sit in there reading and learning.
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A
Were you doing that because you thought you would be bullied? The boys knew you were gay. You know, without spelling out the completely obvious, you're in a change room, people are taking their clothes off, that they somehow would target you?
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B
Yeah, I think it was exactly that. I think I was getting bullied anyway, and it was a sense of going to a room where the teachers weren't. I do just want to say briefly about the school that when I told this story when I was elected, the school beautifully reached out to me and said, we'd love to talk to you about the work we've done to safeguard, particularly our LGBT students. And I think if schools can do that, it's so important that teachers in particular are aware of what's happening with students, and I think there's good progress happening there.
- [24:06]
A
But in a sense, when I talk of you as a storyteller, it's when you're amongst actors. It's when you're talking of the theatre of the oppressed, you feel these are my people. I get it.
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B
I think there's lots of communities, genuinely, that I feel are my people. So I feel that when there's a union called United Voices of the World, which is a migrants union, and when I go spend time with them, I just feel absolutely alive in their stories and their kind of work to build a community.
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A
You called them your tribe at one point.
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B
Oh, really?
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A
Yeah, I've heard you say these were my tribe.
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B
I mean, community theatre, I just think is a wonderful thing. I don't think the plays are always the best plays, but actually that's not the point. The point is the process of people coming together again to find their voice. There's amazing work by various voice coaches that says actually, particularly with young women, helping young women find their voice, particularly from female voice coaches, is not just good in terms of improving the voice, but literally sends out the metaphor that whatever space you're in, people need to hear your voice.
- [25:04]
A
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B
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- [26:30]
A
one of the reasons for your success is that you are an incredibly good storyteller. You are in interviews, you are on the stage, you are in the TV and radio studios as well, can I just pull back the curtain a little bit here on this podcast? You're a bit reluctant to do this. We've been trying to get you for more than six months and there was a stage at which I didn't think you were going to do it at all. Do you think this sort of communication, here we are in BBC Westminster. Frankly, people like me doesn't have to be personal about me, but political journalists, do you feel it holds back a proper political conversation often?
- [27:08]
B
Well, there's a few things there. The first thing I would say is I genuinely believe that someone would have to do the stats on this. I've probably done more interviews than any other political leader in their first six months. It's been pretty much back to back podcasts, live interviews and maybe four months in, which was round about the time that I think I was invited on this. I decided with my team that actually what we wanted to do was start setting the agenda ourselves, rather than responding to everyone else's agenda, which is a totally legitimate part of scrutiny. And I'd done it quite a lot. I wanted some time not just to respond to media and to storytell, but actually to plan and think about what is our economic offer, what is our offer on defence, and to really kind of build that together. So one of the things I did on day one of my leadership was set up my own podcast, Bold Politics. It's getting over a million listens a month. And one of the reasons I love that is because every week I'm able to set the agenda by bringing a guest on who frankly would be behind the scenes, probably briefing me on the kind of answers I would be giving to you. And I thought, rather than me just having those in private and people hearing me repeat it, why don't I give the public access to that? And people have told me they've really enjoyed when they've heard me on a podcast listen to an economist. And then in an interview, I've replied with something I've learned from that economist or with that migration expert.
- [28:18]
A
Then what I challenge, of course, is a different source of communication.
- [28:21]
B
Well, so then we're into phase two now, which is this week, as we've said, I set out my economic plan, my economic vision. And so when you said, do you want to come on now? I said, sure, because actually now we've got a story to be able to tell. So I think it's important, I think there's a risk. And it's happened slightly in this interview that I got known as the storyteller or the actor of a performer. And people felt like there wasn't the substance there. The substance is there because Green Party policy is decided by the members. So we've got loads of policy. What I've needed time to do, and I'll keep doing in recurring motions, is time to ingrain in that policy, build the next step of the story along with the policy. So when I'm talking to you now, I've got something legitimate and new to say, and I've got lots of new things to say to you today. So I'm delighted to be here.
- [29:00]
A
The reason we talk about your background and the reason we talk about your life is that's what this podcast political Thinking is about. It's understanding the values, the background, the stories of people who've got policies they promote on news programs and elsewhere. So let's talk about the big speech then, because it did feel like a moment to me. It felt like a moment where you'd said, right, you know, come on. These guys say, we haven't got anything. We have. Here it is. And it's long and it's dense and in time, in parts. It's not detailed. Some people sum it up as Zachonomics in that way. This isn't the Today program. So I want to ask you about your philosophy, not the numbers behind individual announcements. You've called yourself a socialist. You've talked about wanting a radical transformation of the economy, dismantling the huge corporations. You say, is that the core of your beliefs, that basically the capitalist system as we have it now needs to be gone?
- [29:56]
B
I think it's one of the cause. I think what I would say the core is actually is people power and recognizing people's agency and empowerment, which I've spoken about a few times. I think an inevitable consequence of that is that we look at a different way of society functioning. And right now, in fact, I spoke about in that speech, when I was born, or a little bit after, there were 15 billionaires in this country. There's now 154. Now, I don't have a problem just with billionaires, but the problem is the hoarding of wealth. And actually that means we don't have money flowing around our economy. We don't have the wealth flowing around our economy. So that means the gap between the very, very rich and the poor is getting wider and wider. That's not just bad economically. I think that's creating a fraying of the edges. It's creating community tensions. And I believe almost any problem that we could talk about during this conversation, you could come back to inequality. If you allow things to keep getting so unequal, that creates a whole host of other problems.
- [30:49]
A
Now, you and I have debated and discussed the wealth tax in the past. I want to talk about something else you said in that speech. You talked about ending the bond market doom loop, where the more debt the country's in, the higher our interest rates go, leaving less and less money for public spending, at least if you follow orthodox economics. So you're the storyteller, you tell us, are you saying that there is another way of doing this, that in effect we could stop worrying about spending, we can stop worrying about debt, we can stop worrying about the bond markets and just spend what you like?
- [31:26]
B
Well, spending, debt and bond markets are all part of the economic plan and they have to be because they exist. And so we've got to acknowledge that. What I'm saying, though, in this story, and it's not just the story, by the way, it's everyone's personal experience and what's been happening for decades, particularly since Thatcher is the status quo of economics is absolutely not working. And pre Thatcher, you could look at lots of examples of where we built social housing before we sold off water and gas and things actually worked properly.
- [31:51]
A
But what about this issue which is so critical now? We are talking in a week in which the bank of England had to say we can't now cut interest rates. We're talking a week when there's been a big increase in energy prices. We're talking a week where the government will feel they've got less money than they thought before. But you appear to be suggesting there's a kind of way out of that, which is why, in a sense, I want to understand, are you really saying we can spend what we like, we can tax what we like, we can borrow what we like without the sort of problems that people fear?
- [32:21]
B
I wouldn't say what we like. I would say with deep consideration of an economic plan that is also communicated to the bond markets. I think this is a key point. Bond markets aren't ideological. They just want to know that there's a plan, there's stability and certainty. And what we saw over five Tory Prime Ministers and now Keir Starmer is a lack of a plan. It kind of veers all over the place. One of the reasons why I wanted to pause before I did this interview was I wanted to speak to some more economists. So I've spoken to Mariana Matsucatu, Joseph Stiglitz, who's a Nobel winning economist, and Peter, for I Could keep listing the amount of economists.
- [32:53]
A
I spoke about this podcast.
- [32:54]
B
Fantastic. And one of the things she spoke about that really stuck with me is the idea that economic growth is not a mission. Economic growth is what happens when you have a mission that cuts across departments. And so what I think we need to do is be looking at actually what are the missions of what a government needs to do. And some I could say off my head, to reduce inequality, to tackle the climate crisis, to make sure we empower communities, economic growth and like we are
- [33:19]
A
getting away from what people say. And the reason I'm persistent with it is because in a sense, you know, it's what they say. What they say is, yeah, that's all very well. How does he pay for any of this stuff? You say you want to get rid of the bond market doom loop. And what I'm saying is, how do you do it? And I went to your speech thinking the storyteller, he'll have the answer to me. Here we are. UK fiscal forecasting currently relies on rigid fiscal multiplier assumptions that constrain effective government policy. By assuming that spending multipliers expire after five years, the current model is prioritizing short term fiscal targets over the long term. I could go on.
- [33:53]
B
Do you want me to tell it in story terms?
- [33:55]
A
Yeah.
- [33:56]
B
Right now we set plans for six months. That's called the spending multiplier, which is when we invest in something, what does it bring back to us in six months? Whether it's renewable energy, rail or buses, six months is too short a time to go. I want to improve society by investing. We need to be looking over years and years, if not decades. So the story I want to tell is what kind of society do we want to have in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years time? Do we want a society?
- [34:20]
A
How much money we spend is part of that and how much do we borrow?
- [34:23]
B
Yes. And if you were setting up a business, you would go, I'm going to spend some money right now to invest into my company. And the biggest thing we need to do is eliminate this idea that a household economy is anything like a national budget. We need to change that metaphor to talk about what does it look like when we invest and how do we get that money back. So debt is a complicated word because there's debt that we need to worry about, but there's also debt, which is actually investment. You're taking a short amount of debt to invest and you're bringing that money back, which then reduces the debt. So you want to reduce the deficit.
- [34:54]
A
I Get it? You see, the reason people ask about this is because the cost of our debt and we don't determine the cost, the markets do. What they do is say to the government, say to the country, this is what it costs. The current cost is about the size of the education budget. And if you make them nervous, and I suspect you do, that cost will go up and up because not only will you be borrowing more and spending more, the cost of borrowing that money will increase. Have you looked at what Liz Truss tried to do?
- [35:26]
B
Well, Liz Truss was doing the exact opposite of what I was saying. She was borrowing to fund unfunded tax
- [35:31]
A
cuts which she thought would get the economy growing.
- [35:33]
B
But I'm talking about borrowing to invest in infrastructure, capital spending and day to day spending. Yes, but that's clearer image. It's very different. It's the opposite image. So I'm not talking about borrowing to fund unfunded tax cuts for multimillionaires and billionaires. I'm talking about borrowing to fund transport, education, health. Because actually if you don't invest in these things, it costs so much more because it's a non economy.
- [35:56]
A
The markets don't have a soul, they don't have a heart. They're not interested in who you're giving the money to. They're interested where the numbers add up. And the numbers you didn't add up with Liz Truss and they don't think they add up with you and they didn't think they did with Jeremy Corbyn. Is that wrong? I mean, Jeremy Corbyn made this offer.
- [36:12]
B
Well, with respect, you're talking absolute nonsense, Nick. And you know you're talking nonsense because what Liz Truss was doing was not saying, here is my plan and here is my investment, I expect to get back. She was saying, here's some short term ways for my wealthy mates who have donated to the Conservative Party to have some cuts. You can't tell me with a straight face that is the same as investing in our schools, our hospitals, our transport links.
- [36:32]
A
I think they're both.
- [36:32]
B
It's a completely different conversation, but different spending for tax cuts and spending for investment. And those could not be conversations that could be more opposite.
- [36:41]
A
Good. Well look, you made the case and we'll no doubt talk about it at greater length another time. And there's a speech there for people to read and pay attention to, maybe watch or listen to as well, if they want to just briefly deal with a puzzle which I alluded to in the introduction. You were a liberal Democrat after austerity. I mean, you didn't join in the old days, the five years of Nick Clegg in a coalition with the Tories imposing austerity. Along comes Zach Polanski says, yeah, they're my people. I'll join them. They're my tribe. What was going on?
- [37:14]
B
Well, I've partly solved the problem in what I just said, actually, because if you believe that the household economy is anything like a national budget, austerity starts to make sense as soon as you break that down and realize it's nonsense. Austerity was not a response to the crisis of 2008. It was a model that used the crisis to turbocharge what was effectively moving away our public wealth and moving it towards private capital.
- [37:37]
A
This was your view.
- [37:37]
B
To be clear, you believed it. I absolute at the time, and I stood by it at the time. And do you know what I'm proud of is that my views have changed and my beliefs have changed. And actually, I know that there'll be lots of people who might listen to this who don't agree with me on everything, and that's fine. This is a demonstration that when you hear people who are making a sensible case with passion, if people's minds are curious enough, they go on that journey, too. I want to take millions of people on the same journey that I have and realize that investment in this country is not just necessary, it's urgent.
- [38:04]
A
Yeah. You said we're proud of our government record. You said, as a Liberal Democrat, immensely proud of what Nick Clegg and our colleagues achieved in office. Now, the big story. Now let's turn to that. The war. It's hard to think of very much else, not just because of what it's doing to the world, the fear it's creating, but also, of course, what it's doing, as you alluded to, to the cost of living for people. But I want to talk about your values again, rather than detailed policies. You're anti war. We know that you've in the past spoken with the phrase Hands off Iran was a slogan that was used at a rally you spoke at last year. Who do you think is more of a threat to Britain? Is it Donald Trump? Is it the Ayatollah?
- [38:48]
B
I think they're both incredibly dangerous. In fact, I've given speeches at the London assembly in solidarity with the Woman Life Freedom protest, which were the brave women on the streets of Iran who were protesting the repressive regime that happened previously. We now know that the new Ayatollah might be even more hardline than his father, Donald Trump. I would say is an incredibly dangerous person who is unpredictable and dangerous. And I'm very worried that our country is being dragged into what is an illegal and unpopular war.
- [39:15]
A
The reason I pose it that way is you've said that you think NATO's dead. You said the age of NATO is now fully over, and you want an alternative alliance. You say, to stop American imperialism. That sounds like you think America's the threat.
- [39:29]
B
I think they're both threats. And I think Donald Trump is clearly a threat. He's threatened to annex Greenland, one of our NATO allies.
- [39:35]
A
But we need an alliance to stop Donald Trump, to stop America.
- [39:40]
B
I do think we need an alliance that builds our relationship with our European neighbors, that actually looks at what is European security like in face of increasing threats. And I would say Donald Trump is one of those threats.
- [39:49]
A
Okay. Because we've currently got an alliance called NATO, which is about stopping Russian imperialism. You don't think that's the problem?
- [39:56]
B
I think Russia is also a problem. Vladimir Putin has waged an illegal invasion of Ukraine. It's not that you can only have one problem at once. I think there's an increasing problem of these powerful, strong men not being interested in international law, not being interested in the sanctity of human life. And that include Benjamin Netanyahu.
- [40:13]
A
In the middle of a war with Russia in which NATO is crucial, you'd say, no, Britain's getting out. We're one of the biggest military powers. We're out.
- [40:19]
B
Well, what we've seen is the United States and Israel launch an illegal war on Iran.
- [40:23]
A
Forgive me, that was my question.
- [40:24]
B
Well, I think it's the same question, though, because if they're our ally, I think it's an important time to recognize who are we calling our ally and who are we in a special relationship with? I don't want our country anywhere near Trump and Netanyahu's war.
- [40:35]
A
Okay, so I'll repeat the question. We're at war with Russia, and you are saying, let's break up the alliance that's fighting Vladimir Putin.
- [40:43]
B
I've never said let's break up the alliance immediately. What I've said is.
- [40:46]
A
Well, you said the age of NATO is now fully over. NATO is dead.
- [40:49]
B
Yes. And I think we need to recognize that reality that Donald Trump is threatening to annex Greenland. No one's got an answer for that. I'm not suggesting for a second that we are leaving NATO today. What I am saying is let's have the conversation right now about what the alternative alliance looks like without Donald Trump, because he clearly isn't a predictable ally. In fact, I would say at this point, he is a dangerous risk to our country, to our security. And actually, what I want to see us do is invest in our own national security. And that includes things like making sure we're investing against climate risks, against cybersecurity, against pandemic resilience, or for pandemic resilience and against cyber problems.
- [41:25]
A
You were very open a moment ago when we were talking about doing this interview that essentially wanted time, time to prep, time to talk to people on your podcast and elsewhere, given the speed of change there's been for you. Do you feel in that old metaphor that you're slightly having to build the plane as you're flying it, that people expect you to have all the answers and, you know, six months ago, you were just a member of the London Assembly.
- [41:50]
B
I think that's entirely accurate. And what I always want to say to people is, you don't need to agree with everything I say. In fact, Zoran Mamdani, one of my political heroes, I think he was quoting Ed Cox. So I'm quoting him, quoting someone else. But he said, if you agree with me on 7 out of 10 things, great, let's work together.
- [42:04]
A
To be clear, for people who don't know him, lots do. He's the young, charismatic. There's a connection. Mayor of New York. Exactly. And if you agree with radical socialist
- [42:13]
B
as well, and if you agree with me on 10 out of 10 things, then go see a psychiatrist, because that's not normal. And what I would also say is I don't pretend to know everything. I will trip, I will stumble sometimes, I won't know a number. But actually, having robot politicians who speak like speak your weight machines has not resulted in a better politics. I think what we need is human beings who care, who aren't perfect, who own their mistakes and want to get better.
- [42:37]
A
I'm hesitating. Should I tell you why I'm hesitating? That's what Boris Johnson used to think. You see, the idea of it's the story that matters. Don't trouble me with all this detail stuff.
- [42:48]
B
Oh, that's not what I said. No, no, I know detail is really important, which is why I do a lot of work to understand the nova detail.
- [42:53]
A
I raise it not to insult you. I raise it in order to. To get you within gauge.
- [42:56]
B
The comparison with Boris Johnson is always insulting to someone on the left.
- [43:00]
A
Okay, fair point, fair point. But I make it serious point, actually, which is what some people say of you is, look, this is A guy who wouldn't exist in your age. And maybe it's because I'm 20 years older than you. Right. It is because of social media. It's because of the nature of communication these days and they worry about it, that the danger of stories, tellers. And it's why I deliberately use the phrase to frame this conversation. You know, the other thing, and it's. People use it as an insult. I'm being absolutely open with you. They do. Snake oil salesmen, that's what they say. They're suspicious. I don't really trust what's underneath this. The charisma should make you a bit wary.
- [43:40]
B
Well, it's my job to be across for detail, which is exactly why when you ask me for an interview, I say I want to pause because I want to be across for detail. And today I believe I'm entirely across for detail. So I'm happy to be here both to tell the stories, because I think charisma and storytelling is a vital part of politics. And I think it is vital that we have the information. The experts for research. I'm comfortable that on a lot of things I'm right there. Am I a finished product? Absolutely not. Will I ever be a finished product? No, I don't want to be. I'm a disruptor. I intend to disrupt because there's lots to disrupt. And I'm going to do it by making sure that I've listened to the best experts, the best research, so every answer I ever give is fully backed in knowledge and expertise.
- [44:22]
A
I thought long and hard whether to ask you about a story which I suspect you're heartily sick of, but I'm afraid I am, because I think it's relevant. The story that as a hypnotherapist, you claim to have increased a woman's breast size by 4 inches. Does it make you cringe, even hearing that now?
- [44:37]
B
Yeah, it does make me cringe. It's embarrassing. You know, I've apologized and I've repeatedly apologized at some point. I think it's. It's important that I keep putting forward, actually what I'm doing right now. Tony Benn, as we've mentioned, one of my favorite politicians who died 12 years ago this week said, I don't care where you came from, I care where you're going. I made a mistake and I acknowledge I made a mistake.
- [44:57]
A
What are you apologising for, though? I think that's why there's still a bit of a question. You apologising for thinking you could increase a woman's breasts by hypnosis. You apologizing for saying you thought you could do it? What is it you're apologizing for?
- [45:11]
B
I think there's two main apologies there. One is working with the sun, which is something now, as a politician, I would never do.
- [45:16]
A
Yeah. To be clear, the woman in question
- [45:18]
B
was a Southern reporter and it was entirely her idea. And that's not to back away from my apology. You know, I went along with it and that's, you know, I have that culpability in that 13 years ago, before I was a politician. But I acknowledge that and I apologize for that. And the second thing I apologize for is I never believed it and I shouldn't have presented something, despite it being her idea, as something I was willing to go along with. It's important to say I don't think I ever said I believed it. I said she said it worked, and I believe her, which is a slightly different thing, but I still apologize.
- [45:45]
A
But as you know, the BBC dug around because of things you said you'd said in the past, apologies, and found an interview you did with RadioHub Design in which you doubled down on it. I quote, actually, increasingly more and more, as I work with people, they're starting to become anecdotal evidence, at least of a growth in breast size. So you did think it.
- [46:04]
B
Well, you said it. Well, maybe you didn't think it well, if you carried on with the quote, the interviewer then said, do you believe it worked? And I said, according to her, it does. Which is clearly me saying. I mean, if someone really believes that this is true, then they should probably stop reading the Sun. That all being said, I stand by my apology. I stand by mistake. It was 13 years ago.
- [46:21]
A
Are you saying I. Look, I said what they wanted to hear. I never believed a word of it. I just said what they wanted to hear.
- [46:25]
B
I went along with what the sun journalist suggested. I wasn't a politician. I shouldn't have done that. I've owned that mistake. You're perfectly right to ask me about it. But I would say, and again, I say this respectfully, that this came out again last week on the same day the Peter Mandelson files were released, in the same week that there was a war happening in Iran.
- [46:42]
A
Understood. Well, let's move on then, from that. I'm afraid I'm going to put you back in the psychiatrist chair, you see, because there used to be this program
- [46:50]
B
called as long as you're not going to hypnotize, fine.
- [46:53]
A
No, you'll be aware that in acting, there's a method in which what you have to do is interrogate internally as to what motivates your character. And I think, again, I think what worries some people is they fear that what motivates Zach Polanski is wanting to be liked, wanting to be part of a tribe.
- [47:17]
B
Is there anything in that? Well, I think everyone wants to be liked to a certain point, right?
- [47:21]
A
Yes.
- [47:22]
B
I would also say I have a history, both as leader and deputy leader of the party, of saying positions that aren't necessarily popular but I believe are credible in the correct positions. And, in fact, on lots of them, I think I've been vindicated, particularly on Donald Trump. Lots of people were criticizing me for criticizing the American president. You now, when you look at polling, see the whole country, including Keir Starmer, have pretty much moved to my position. I would say that's not the action of a politician who just wants to be liked. But if you say to me, do I want to be liked? Sure. I'll be completely honest about that. You know, when people scream at you or shout at you, it doesn't happen to me very often, but it's not a pleasant experience. And I think, why can't someone see that I'm trying to do the best for the entire country and for communities who are really struggling right now?
- [48:03]
A
I guess the test that some people put for politicians is whether they can tell supporters things they don't want to hear.
- [48:11]
B
Oh, for sure.
- [48:11]
A
Not just things they do want to hear. This came up in the by election in Gordon and Denton, where part of your success, and I do stress part, was because many local Muslims supported your candidate, because they shared your anger about what Israel was doing and about Gaza. And what some people say is pretty much everything Zach Polanski argues for socially, whether it's gay rights, whether it's trans rights, whether it's quite controversial things of possibly legalising prostitution or the supply of drugs would be absolutely anathema to most of the voters he got. Are you willing to say, have you ever said to an audience, hey, look, I agree with you on this, but I fundamentally disagree with you on that?
- [48:58]
B
Well, I'll give two answers there. I think if someone is saying that Muslim communities aren't open, welcoming and inclusive, I would say that's racism and I'd want to have that conversation with them.
- [49:09]
A
So if you say that, they would say, look, different communities, and obviously we're not. You can't generalise about a population of several million. It would be an absurd and offensive thing to do. But it is not unfair to say that there are attitudes in religious communities which are absolutely the opposite of what you argue for.
- [49:27]
B
Well, one of the most famous Muslims, other than Sadiq Khan, to be a mayor of a city is Zorramdani, and he just appointed a trans woman to his administration. And so I think there's lots of examples where you can find conservatism among religious communities. You can find conservatism among non religious communities.
- [49:43]
A
But I was asking you whether you were willing to say things to people they didn't want to hear. That was the question.
- [49:47]
B
Yes, I do.
- [49:47]
A
So whether you'd say to those people, actually, we agree on girls, or I fundamentally disagree with you on your attitudes to women, gay rights, trans rights, I'm
- [49:57]
B
willing to have that row, absolutely. But I don't accept the presupposition that an entire community will have those views if someone individually has those views, not me, argue, sure. Good. I would look them in the eyes and face if I'm with them and say, I disagree with you. I do that on doorsteps all the time, by the way.
- [50:10]
A
Yeah, well, someone's name has come up and it surprised me a bit, a lot. Not just this week, but in this interview, Tony Benchmark. You've mentioned him a few things. Now, look, no one has ever accused me of not being a political nerd, but I did not know that this was the week which is the anniversary of the death of Tony Benn. For those of a certain age who have never heard of him, most will. But you know, former Labour Cabinet minister, but later in his life, the leading campaigner on the left for many, many years. Would you like to be seen as a modern Tony, Ben?
- [50:45]
B
I want to be seen as Zach Polanski, who's doing my own thing and doing things my own way and supporting other communities.
- [50:51]
A
But would you be flattered, though, because you have been compared, Owen Jones, campaigner, compared you with him. Is that a flattering campaigner?
- [50:57]
B
I find it incredibly flattering. I think it's one of the greatest honours that I could hold. I read a book recently by Andy Beckett, the Searchers, that talked about a group of politicians who'd often gone against the grain and Tony Benn was one of them. Now, I won't sit here and pretend Tony Benn's my hero my entire life, in fact. I didn't know even who he was, to my shame, until about seven, eight years ago, he started to come on my radar.
- [51:19]
A
After he died?
- [51:20]
B
Yes, after he died. So even after he was alive. Cause I wasn't that engaged with politics, as I've said, But reading that book, there was so much that resonated. So I went off and read some of his diaries, read lots of interviews with him, watched lots of interviews, and what I saw was someone who really cared about their communities. We're very different people, we come from very different backgrounds. I don't have families who are in the House of Lords, but what I saw in them in every interview I watch is a deep compassion, a care for humanity and a willingness to come to the discussion. We were just having to tell people sometimes what they don't want to hear. And I think that's an incredible quality when you can hold both your values and your passion and speak to people in a way that can overcome disagreement by making the argument or the issues, as Tony Benn would have said, the issues.
- [52:07]
A
That sort of voice, didn't he? The theme, as you've been reflecting on this interview, has been about storytelling. Stories have to have happy endings. I was interested that when we first met, we'd done lots of interviews down the line, but when we first met was in a studio at Broadcasting House, a debate in which you were a panelist. And people came up to you after, afterwards, didn't they, because they were impressed about what you said. But I was struck by one conversation with a woman who said, my children like you.
- [52:37]
B
Yeah. So it's interesting. I very often see polling that says, in fact, if you look at polling at the moment between 16 and I think it's 49 year olds, the Green Party would be first. So there's clearly a huge wave of support amongst young people. Every time I talk about this, though, and it will happen now, I'm sure I get lots and lots of older people saying, please don't forget we're supporting you, and more importantly, the Green Party too. And actually, I think.
- [53:01]
A
What did she say to you? Just remind me of what she said
- [53:03]
B
she said, and I do hear it a lot, people say, can I have a picture? My son or daughter is a huge fan of yours. And I often say to them, well, what about you? Jokingly? And they often say, I really like what you're doing. I think you're a brilliant speaker. I'm not just sure it can work. And that's exactly why I've seen spent so much time working on the detail being in the substance. Because my job between now and the next general election, and I'm absolutely confident we can do it, is to demonstrate through examples, through research, through expertise, that what we can and must do is make it work because the country requires nothing less.
- [53:36]
A
So the end of the story is either you don't convince people like her, the souffle goes down, or you do. Maybe you can think about that photograph outside number 10.
- [53:47]
B
Well, welcome to politics.
- [53:48]
A
Zach Polanski, thank you very much indeed for joining me on Political Thinking.
- [53:51]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [53:53]
A
It's not, I suspect, a comparison that Zach Polanski will much like, but at times during that interview, he reminded me of a recent interview I did with Nigel Farage in this way, not, I stress, in what they believe. Both are getting serious. They both look and sound like people who want to prove that they're not just good at the sound bite or the speech, that they are thinking through policy and they're doing the work. As I suggested to him at the end of that interview, if he can pull that off, the sky's the limit. If not, it may be that the support he's amassed crumbles before an election. Thanks for listening to this episode of Political Thinking, the last in the current series. The producers were Leela Padmanabhan and Flora Murray. The editor, Giles Edwards. Political Thinking returns in May after elections across Britain, which will in part at least deliver a verdict on Keir Starmer's government and give us a sense of the shape of politics between now and the general election. There are hundreds of previous conversations like this one on BBC Sounds, so do go there and listen. And if you tap subscribe, each new episode will drop into your feed as soon as they're released. Also on BBC Sounds, you'll find my colleague Amal Rajan's podcast Radical. This week, Amal explores how countries reckon with the legacy of empire and whether taking down statues is the answer with Simukhai Chigudu, one of the founders of the Rose Must Fall campaign at Oxford University and author of a new memoir called Chasing Freedom. The moral maze on BBC Radio 4. I've never been more concerned about the future of humanity than I am now examining one of the week's main news stories through an ethical lens.
- [55:54]
B
If we don't do something, millions will
- [55:57]
A
die, billions will die.
- [55:58]
B
That's the state of play here.
- [55:59]
A
Sometimes combative, sometimes provocative, always engaging.
- [56:04]
B
I'd like to go one level deeper and talk about your fundamental moral commitments. Do you have any?
- [56:12]
A
The new series of the Moral Maze with me, Michael Burke from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. Hey, I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast Lunatic in the Newsroom. If you enjoy journalism that drifts into mild panic wild overthinking and a guaranteed nervous breakdown. Lunatic in the Newsroom is for you. It's news like you've never heard before. The only newsroom with a panic button. You'll laugh, you'll cry and gasp in horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news. It's emotionally unstable. Lunatic in the Newsroom. Listen. Today we focus on the part of
- [56:55]
B
the Internet that most people don't know about.
- [56:58]
A
It's called the Dark Web.
- [57:00]
B
Undercover in the furthest corners of the Dark Web, US Special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse.
- [57:09]
A
Move in now from the BBC World
- [57:12]
B
Service World of Secrets. The Darkest Web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.