← Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
John Swinney: Trump, Independence and Scottish Troops in Ukraine
00:42:09
What is the Scottish First Minister's secret for getting Donald Trump's attention?
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- [00:00]
A
Hello, and welcome to a new series of Political Thinking, a conversation with, rather than a news interrogation of someone who shapes our political thinking about what has shaped theirs. This week we're in Edinburgh, in particular here at Bute House, the home of Scotland's First Minister. We're here because it's a very big year for elections, an election here in Scotland where Scots will get to choose who governs them for the next five years, in Wales, where the people of Wales will make a similar choice, and indeed, millions of people in England choosing who their local councillors are. That, of course, matters in and of itself, but it will have a huge impact on who's seen to be up and down in UK politics. But there's something even more important at stake, perhaps the future of the United Kingdom itself. First Minister, thank you for joining me on Political Thinking. The world has changed dramatically in the past few days, in the past year, and really because of one man. And you know Donald Trump better than most. Most British politicians, certainly. What have you learned when you've been dealing with this man, about the way to interact with him?
- [01:18]
B
I think the crucial point I would reflect on my dealings with President Trump is that you have to be very, very focused in your engagement with him. And President Trump came to Scotland in the summer to open one of the Trump golf courses up in the northeast of Scotland. And I had the opportunity to meet him. And I went into that conversation with a very focused agenda in my mind. I wanted to talk about the big issues of that period. And at that period, the issue of Gaza was the absolutely overwhelming issue. It was causing enormous concern to the people I serve in Scotland about what was happening in Gaza. And then I also wanted to advance the interests of the people of Scotland, particularly around about the issue of whisky in relation to tariffs. So I thought long and hard about how to engage and to take a very focused approach to how I engaged with President Trump also drew on his connection with Scotland. So one of the things I decided to do when I met him was to ask the Registrar General of Scotland if we had anything in our records that would be particularly personal to him. And we found an extract in a parish record from 1853 in the parish of Tong in the Western Isles, which records the marriage of his mother's grandparents, who. And it's written in the elegant hand of the Church of Scotland minister in the parish of Tong. And I had that framed for him. And I heard later that it had made a profound impact on him because it was of such a deep connection about his mother and her roots in Scotland.
- [03:02]
A
So, above all, you say he's got to be personal. Clearly, you sugared the pill, didn't you? And there was a pill you wanted to tell him something on Gaza that he might not have wanted to hear. You wanted a. A favour, in effect, because it's supposed to be the UK government that deals with the issue of tariffs, the UK government that deals with foreign affairs. You wanted something from him. So it's about sugar in the pill, flattering him a bit, being rather personal.
- [03:26]
B
I think it's about realising who you're dealing with and about recognizing how best to make some headway on difficult topics. And I had to make sure that the issues I was concerned about, and as I said, principally, was the issue of Gaza on the international stage. And I wanted to register the deep concern of the people I serve on that question.
- [03:50]
A
But you see some people react in a completely different way, don't they? When it came to the state visit, when it came to that state banquet, your counterpart in Wales, the First Minister, didn't go to that dinner. Sir Ed Davy, the leader of the deported Democrats, said he wouldn't go. Did you spend any time thinking maybe the answer's just to stand up to the guy, boycott him?
- [04:12]
B
The fundamental conclusion I came to was that people in Scotland would expect me to get on with my job as First Minister. And as First Minister, I should put to the President of the United States issues that matter to the people of Scotland, and whether that's about international issues and crises such as Gaza, or about issues that are causing direct economic harm, not just here in Scotland, but also in the United States, around whisky. So I took the view that in my role as First Minister of Scotland, I've got a job of work to do and sometimes that involves saying difficult things to other leaders and I should go on and do that.
- [04:47]
A
So you didn't agonise about it because Sir Ed Davey told me that he had prayed, prayed with his wife about the right thing to do and concluded that the right thing was to not meet Donald Trump. Your own Westminster leader once said of Keir Dahmer he should get off his knees with where? It seems to me you and Keirm have a common view about how to deal with him.
- [05:10]
B
I just took the view that it was part of my role to go on and do that. It wasn't to avoid. If we're having this conversation and I'd avoided talking about Gaza, then I think I could understand some criticism. But I didn't. I took the issue. It was interesting on the question of Gaza. The day before I met president, or two days before I met President Trump, I'd taken part in a charity run in my own constituency. And the local minister in the church there was running on the event. And he told me that that morning at the church service in Aberfeldi, his congregation had prayed that the encounter between their Member of Parliament and the President of the United States might bring some headway on Gaza. And they prayed for this in the church. So he told me this story. So when I went in to see President Trump, I told him that I had this message conveyed to me by a local minister in my constituency. And you could see that he was interested in the fact that a congregation in rural Persia decided that our man's going to go in to see the president. We should try to use that opportunity to, to make some headway. And that's why I judged it was the right. One of the reasons why I judged it was the right thing to do.
- [06:29]
A
Do you think it made any difference? Because it wasn't the only meeting you had with him last year. You met him in Aberdeenshire when he came over to visit the golf course. You actually got a pretty unique invitation to the Oval Office. Not something your predecessors who lived here, not something that Alex Salmond had or Nicola Sturgeon had. And you met him at the state dinner as well. Do you believe you got through so many whites?
- [06:52]
B
I certainly think I got a good hearing. I have to say that I got a good hearing in Aberdeenshire. I got a good hearing in the Oval Office. I got a good hearing at the State.
- [07:02]
A
He says you're a terrific guy. And he says he loves golf. He says about John Sweden, you don't love golf at all, do you?
- [07:08]
B
Well, I said in my media interviews afterwards, I said I was aware of the game of golf, but I'm not a golfer aware of it. But I certainly welcome the attention that President Trump brings to golfing in Scotland because it brings lots of American visitors to Scotland, which is a good thing.
- [07:24]
A
There's a reason I've dwelt on this so long, because we live in incredibly dangerous times. We live in times that for people of our generation were of a similar age. Pretty much everything that we took for granted feels like it's being torn up. The idea of the rules based international order. Are you worried?
- [07:46]
B
Yes. And all that you've just put to me, I share that anxiety because throughout my life I feel I've had a certainty that my parents generation didn't have. And of course I'm the son of a mother who lost her brother, a cherished brother, in the last days of the Second World War. And my late uncle died on the 3rd of April 1945 at Lake Camacho in Italy. King George VI posthumously awarded my uncle the Victoria Cross for his bravery in protecting his colleagues. So the idea of loss in conflict, in turbulent international times is not some remote concept to me. I was brought up with that because I saw in my mother the agony that she still experienced about the loss of a 21 year old brother in the last days of the Second World War. So all of that is really meaningful for me about the fact that we should cherish what we have experienced since the Second World War, of that period of peace and stability and order. But it does feel much weaker today.
- [09:02]
A
And do you know, there are some people, generals, politicians all across Europe who say that there is a real risk that your children, that my children might have to fight a war in the way that their grandparents once did. Is that a fear you have?
- [09:18]
B
Yes. And I think we're in an era now where the risk of, well, the risk of conflict has never disappeared because it's been in. In locations remote from where we are. I think what changed a lot of my thinking was the invasion of Ukraine, because literally within days of the invasion of Ukraine, we began to feel the effects in our own community, because we felt some economic effects directly and immediately because of energy costs, for example. We then felt the impact where we had to make provision to welcome, which we did warmly and enthusiastically, people from Ukraine coming to Scotland as refugees. And I think what that all did to me was to say this has all come a lot closer to home. So I worry that the precious inheritance that came to our generation from the suffering of the Second World War is now in jeopardy for future generations.
- [10:18]
A
I want to talk about how the politics of the election that you're now fighting might affect that in just a moment. But before I if Donald Trump were suddenly to say, I'm coming to Edinburgh next week, it wouldn't be Gaza this time. What would be the thing you would say to him in order to prove that you weren't just lobbying for something that you wanted?
- [10:37]
B
Well, obviously there are material issues that we still have to pursue with the United States, which, as a consequence of the tariffs, are doing the economic harm. So that remains an absolute priority. But for me, the issue that I worry about most at the present moment is the connection of the United States to the defence and security of Europe. And I worry about that from a couple of respects firstly, in relation to Ukraine, I think the Russian aggression has got to be repelled. I think the independence of Ukraine has got to be protected and its sovereignty respected. But I also worry about the language that's been emanating about Greenland and the implications for Denmark and the implications for what that all means for the sustainability of NATO, which I recognize to be an alliance that is of enormous strategic significance for the peace and security that we enjoy.
- [11:36]
A
So much so that if British troops, if Scottish troops one day, if Scotland is independent, are asked to serve in Ukraine, you would be happy.
- [11:47]
B
If there's a peace agreement that is acceptable to the people of Ukraine, that they find is in their interests, and part of that involves the deployment of troops from this country in that situation, to be part of assuring that peace, then I would support that.
- [12:04]
A
Let me tell you something that Donald Trump might say to you at the moment. Certainly many of his supporters would say. He'd say, john, look, we like you, we think you're a terrific guy, but what on earth are you doing launching an election campaign saying, let's reopen the debate about independence? The uk, The Americans will probably say to you are one of the powers in the world. They've got one of the biggest defence forces in Europe. They have a permanent seat on the Security Council. They are one of the nuclear powers. Why on earth are you now thinking in the face of Russian aggression, in the face of China getting stronger and stronger, breaking all that up?
- [12:44]
B
I think what's important for me is that I've always viewed independence as a means of enhancing the lives of people in Scotland. So one of the issues which is perplexing people in Scotland and we're meeting today in Edinburgh in pretty cold temperatures is that we've got, we've got rampant fuel poverty in Scotland, despite the fact that we are an energy rich country.
- [13:08]
A
Let's come to the case for independence in a second, if we like. What about that argument against that says it is simply reckless in this dangerous world that you've described, in this world in which you say your children might have to fight in a war, it is reckless to take the United Kingdom and to tear it up.
- [13:28]
B
But you see, I've never argued for independence as some route to isolation. I've always viewed an independent Scotland as a country that would collaborate and cooperate with others. So I am a very, very strong supporter of an independent Scotland being a member of the European Union. I support and my party supports Scotland being a member of NATO as an independent country. So we have always recognized the importance of Collaboration and co cooperation and indeed what I would in the current context, I think the arguments for an even deeper level of partnership and collaboration with Europe is ever more central. And that's why I think the mistakes that the United Kingdom has made since Brexit, the Brexit decision in 2016 and what has followed has simply exacerbated the case for Scotland to be part of Europe. But because of the need to be cooperative and collaborative.
- [14:23]
A
Yeah, First Minister, I hear echoes in the way you talk. If it's all going to be fine, I'm in favor of collaboration. I'm friends with these people. I hear echoes of the Brexiteers. That's what they said. Don't you worry, it's all going to be fine. And I was just analyzing what would happen if you got your way on independence and you say these elections will take you another step down the road. You'd have a fight lasting years with London, with Westminster, with Whitehall, about the powers. You'd have a fight with roughly half of Scotland who don't want independence. You'd have a fight with many countries in the EU who will not want Scotland to join on the terms that you want it to join. There may well be an argument within NATO about the fact that you want nuclear bases to leave Scotland and to go into the rump of what would be left of the United Kingdom. I put it to you again. It's a pretty strange time in your life and mine to want to have all those rounds.
- [15:15]
B
Well, fundamentally, it comes about the case for independence, which we will come on to discuss. But for me, the issues that you raise are issues that are addressed by how we approach the question of independence. We approach it from the point of view of wishing to be a collaborative and cooperative country with others. I think the Brexit decision was about taking the UK away from Europe, being able to do things in a fashion that made the UK remote from the European cooperation. I'm saying the opposite of that. I want to be closer to that European cooperation.
- [15:50]
A
You want your son, who's a teenager and my son to be foreigners. You want them to live in different countries. You want them to be a border.
- [15:58]
B
Well, I don't. I don't. But then, you see, I don't. I never viewed any of the European issues in that fashion. I viewed. I had as much attachment to being a citizen of the European Union as I had to being a citizen of Scotland because I believe in the way in which we work together enhances us. I think during my lifetime, Scotland has been enhanced by the level of cooperation and collaboration that we enjoyed under the European Union, our universities and our student community had so much more ability to move together and to work together and to essentially bring our interests much closer together. And of course, Brexit has ruptured a lot of that.
- [16:40]
A
What have you learned from Brexit? Because the Brexiteers did say some of the things you're saying. Don't worry, it'll all be fine and we'll all get on afterwards. It didn't turn out that way on a series of fronts. Given the divisions created by Brexit, the distraction caused by Brexit, the time taken by Brexit, the distraction, if you like, from the day job, which we're going to come onto in a just a second. Have you learned something about how to approach this decision, if indeed Scotland does approach it again?
- [17:11]
B
I think there's several points that I would say about that. The first is that I recognise that the case that we've got to put together has got to be compelling and persuasive. So we've got to reach people who perhaps don't take that view just now, but to do that in a persuasive way. And it's always been my style of politics, it's what I brought to politics over my long involvement in Scottish politics. The second thing I've learned is that you must have an orderly and organised process by which Scotland takes the decision to be independent. Hence the very clear leadership I've given to my party about how we should argue the case and how we should say independence should be delivered.
- [17:50]
A
Just to be clear, for people who don't follow the detail, you've said if you got a majority on seats, which is a tough order in a country in which there's proportional representation, if you get a majority of seats in these elections coming up, you will treat that effectively as a mandate to then go forward, take the next step, have a referendum.
- [18:08]
B
That's absolutely right, because that's the precedent from 2011. And I think there's an important democratic question here, that the people of Scotland are entitled, they have the right to decide their own future and that should be respected by everyone, including the United Kingdom government. And the last observation I would make is about how we act and how we position ourselves as a country and what I've set out. We enjoy very good collaborative relationships with a whole range of European countries, but we work together on different projects and we have a deep understanding of our shared interests. And that's very much the spirit I would want to take forward forward as we engage in creating the role for an independent Scotland in a European context. And I think that European context has to become ever more significant in our lives, given the threats that we face.
- [19:02]
A
When we last spoke at the end of 2024, you said you'd need to see demonstrable public support for independence before taking another move. Not a lot. It's just change. Sometimes you're ahead in the polls, the yes vote, sometimes you're behind in the polls. I tell you what your critics say as you start this election year. They say this is just a massive distraction, what John Swinney is trying to do because his government's not very popular. More than 55% disapprove of your record. Trying to get the old band back on the road again, trying to get all those people who like the sound of independence to talk about this and not talk about your record.
- [19:42]
B
Well, I'm very happy to talk about a record and I'm sure we'll come on to do that. But I think there's also something else that people look for in politicians, is for politicians to actually set out what they believe in. And if I stood up and said anything other than I believe Scotland would be best served by being an independent country, I wouldn't be being true to who I am when what I've believed all my adult life, and wouldn't be true to what I've said to people in Scotland. So I think people are looking for a bit of integrity from their politicians, a bit of openness about what they actually believe, and that's what they'll get from me.
- [20:19]
A
You see, you've been in power, and I do mean you've been in power not just the snp, for almost two decades, and you've been there for all. But I think one year of those two decades, it's a heck of a long time. The SNP came to power before the iPhone was even invented. And let me put it to you this way, there are some people who say, look, what politicians are for are for fixing things, making life better. It's like calling a plumber to come and unblock the bug. And what you've done is you've come along and said, oh, don't worry ahead about that. I could do your lovely design for the garden and how It'll look in 10 years time. You want to talk about this possible dream of what an independent Scotland would be like. You don't want to focus on the fact that in schools and in hospitals, you've not performed that well.
- [21:09]
B
Well, I think if I look over the lifetime of the SNP government since 2007, and you're right, I've been in the government for all those years, apart from one year, which I now affectionately call my sabbatical year, and. But in that time, just pretty felt that.
- [21:24]
A
Because you weren't expected to come back, were you?
- [21:26]
B
No, I'd stood down, but I think it's pretty obvious my party got into difficulties and they asked me to come back into office almost two years ago. And it's been the unrelenting privilege of my life to serve Scotland as First Minister.
- [21:40]
A
So it's a nice phrase, unrelenting.
- [21:42]
B
Yeah. Unexpected, but an absolute privilege. And what I'm saying to people is that, yes, there are, you know, there is the aspiration of independence and how our lives can be enhanced by using the resources of Scotland to particular energy resources for the benefit of the people of Scotland. But I'm also very proud to set out to people the fact that Scotland has been strengthened and has been improved as a country because of SNP government. We sit in a country today where child poverty in Scotland is very much lower than it is in the rest of the United Kingdom, because of the actions that my colleagues and I have taken over a number of years to reduce child poverty, which is of strategic significance to the well being of people in Scotland.
- [22:27]
A
And yet those children have a lower life expectancy here in Scotland than a child had in England and Wales at the height of the pandemic. It is still the case that this is a deeply unhealthy nation in which you say the health service in Scotland, which you run as the SNP government, it's not run from Westminster, it's not run by the Labour Party. You say it's turning the corner, but there are still roughly 300 Scots who had to wait for more than 48 hours in AE in the past year. It's not good enough, is it?
- [23:00]
B
Well, there are elements of our health service that will be under pressure, particularly during winter in ae, because of the conditions that we are experiencing. But in terms of demonstrating that the health services turned a corner, I came in and said, we'll get down long waits in the aftermath of the COVID pandemic. Now, we didn't tend to have long waits before the COVID pandemic, but obviously a backlog was created. So in the space of the last six months, with the first budget that I put in place as First Minister, we've had a reduction in long waits of about 30%, and that's a huge, huge indication of the improvement in the pace of activity. With a record number of hip and knee operations in Scotland last year, we've got higher levels of activity than we had in previous years. And now back to pre pandemic levels.
- [23:48]
A
I don't want to trade stats, but as you know, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, for example, said more than 800 people died in Scotland due to long A and E waits. It's not good enough, is it?
- [23:58]
B
So that's where we're putting in the resources and the leadership to make sure that we turn that corner. And I said I would do it on long waits because that's what reduces the pressure on the health service by getting people treated earlier and in a fitter.
- [24:12]
A
If we were talking about the UK government, they'd say, and they did about the Tories and they did before that about Labour. How long do you need? I mean, you've been in power since 2007 and you're now saying, oh, give me another five years. We'll. We're turning the corner, maybe we'll get round.
- [24:31]
B
You've got to look at the comparative experience, because as I said a moment ago, pre Covid, we didn't have. We had long waits, but they weren't as great in volume as they are today. And then we had the COVID pandemic, which has clearly created a lot of disruption in our public services and we're recovering from that. And my argument is that people in Scotland can now see that delivery on the ground. And then when you look at some of the polling, you talked about attitudes towards the government. Over the course of the last six months, there's been a couple of polls that have looked comparatively at who is trusted to lead the National Health Service. Well, over the last six months, the SNP and my leadership has been more strongly endorsed. Our lead has grown.
- [25:19]
A
You study the polls, you know what's really going on. The Labour Party get more and more unpopular. The SNP stay roughly.
- [25:25]
B
No, but I'm talking. No, I'm talking.
- [25:27]
A
No, no, I'm talking about issues.
- [25:28]
B
I'm talking about on who's trusted to lead the National Health Service. My party, Its lead is growing. Who's trusted to deliver an education? My party is growing. Who's trusted to deal to lead on the economy? My party is growing.
- [25:41]
A
Well, let me ask you one. On education, as you raise it. Schools, one of your big targets. Back in 2016, you said you closed the attainment gap between Scotland's richest and poorest pupils. The idea that the poor do significantly worse than wealthier. It's 10 years on. That gap has not been closed, has it?
- [26:02]
B
It's not been completely closed, but it's widely. No, it's at its narrowest level ever, based on the attainment data that was set out before Christmas.
- [26:11]
A
So in the lifetime, because Nicola Sturgeon, your predecessor, said the goal was a.
- [26:14]
B
Mistake, she regretted it. Well, over the lifetime of the SNP government, the attainment gap has closed by around about 65% over the lifetime of the SNP government. Now, that's a huge set of measures and a huge achievement to address inequality in our society.
- [26:32]
A
I'm only slightly quizzical and forgive me, First Minister, because I don't have all the data with me, but you got a ticking off from the UK Statistics Authority for something you said at a First Minister Minister's question session, is that these figures are not quite right that the Scottish Government are presenting you with.
- [26:45]
B
Well, certainly over the lifetime of the SAP government, there has been, I think, what we could all agree upon, there has been significant progress in closing the attainment gap. Has it been closed entirely? No, it's not. I accept that and that's why. But issues such as the pandemic which came along, disrupted our education for two years is undoubtedly going to have an effect on our ability to achieve that objective completely, but it shouldn't mask the fact that we've made a phenomenal amount of progress.
- [27:14]
A
Now, you've mentioned Covid a couple of times. Clearly had an impact on health, it had an impact on schools, wherever you live. It had a dramatic impact on you personally, didn't it?
- [27:25]
B
It did, yes. The whole. The pandemic was like, it was a shocking experience for everybody and I don't see anything that I see here to plea for sympathy, but it affected politicians as well. My wife has multiple sclerosis. Some of the treatment that she receives results in her having very low immunity. And at the outset of the COVID pandemic, her long standing clinician made it clear to us that we had to avoid Covid. We just could not risk getting Covid or my wife would be more than likely in a life threatening situation. And that was, at the outset of the pandemic, an absolutely shocking piece of news to hear and it affected my behaviour and how my colleagues reacted to my colleagues. You were Education Secretary, I was Education Secretary. I was a senior Government Minister. My colleagues basically said to me at the time, well, don't you come anywhere near Parliament, you stay well away, you be isolated. So as a family, we were isolated from a lot of the world, with me operating from home, living a very kind of distinct existence within my house with my wife and my son. And I lost vulnerability.
- [28:46]
A
You lost your mother as well, and.
- [28:47]
B
I lost my mother at the start of the COVID pandemic as well. So the whole. All of that had an effect on me, of making me realize just how utterly precious all of those around about us are and how we had to take such care at that time.
- [29:06]
A
I want to ask you about that because you talked to me last time about the decision you had to make as a family about returning to public life, a decision because your wife is very unwell. You talked about the fact, you discussed it, the two of you. And I've just been shown next door, the cabinet room here at Bute House, a picture that you look at, a painting that you have opposite where you sit at that cabinet table, which is this, right, is a way in which John Swinney, if things are getting a bit much, looks at that painting and says, hold on, there's another world out there.
- [29:42]
B
I am as a family. We holiday in the west coast islands of Scotland, and the islands are, for us, as a family, a place of peace. It's where we've always gone for our summer respite. And the attraction for us is the combination of golden sands and turquoise waters. And it's been part of our family life all our days. And even if it's pouring moraine on a howling gale, the water's still turquoise and the beaches are still gold and sandy. And a few months ago, I was at an exhibition of the work of the Scottish colorists, and the artwork was being explained to me by James Knox, the curator of the Fleming Collection. And we came across this painting by Samuel peplo, painted in 1936, of green sea at Iona, one of our beautiful west coast islands. And I was literally overwhelmed by this picture. And I enthused to James about what the scene meant for me and all about it. And he said to me very kindly, would you like to display that at Bute House? So it sits opposite me at the cabinet table. So when some difficult news is being conveyed to me at the cabinet meeting, I can look at Green Sea at Iona, and I can think, well, there is some peace in this world that I can rely on. And I think actually, in terms of who I am and how I serve and how I lead, having that sense that there are places of peace in a very, very conflicted world, whether it's about the world of politics that I occupy or whether it's about the international environment. It's a source of enormous reassurance to me.
- [31:30]
A
Now, we've talked about your wife and the decision you took. That obviously has a. An impact on your teenage son as well. And colleagues who cover politics here have noticed Matthew's around quite a lot. I think he helped our camera operator on one occasion. He's been following you, hasn't he? Is he following your footsteps because you joined the SMP when you were a teenager?
- [31:51]
B
Yeah, I don't think. I think. I think he's interested. He's intrigued. On Monday morning, he decided that because his schools were only going back on Wednesday, he had a couple of days still at home and dad was out at work. So he came on the road with me for two days, came to all my engagements. He had the privilege of sitting in the parliamentary chamber where civil servants would normally sit, because I was answering a question, one of our civil servants to come in there, and he was absolutely fascinated by it. He has lots of questions about it, he has lots of opinions about it all as well. And he shares some of those opinions with his father.
- [32:30]
A
Now, famously, your father will never tell you how he votes.
- [32:32]
B
That's correct.
- [32:33]
A
He's got in his 90s. Now, are you confident that your son agrees with you on, for example, independence? Because I want to return to that before we end our conversation, if I may, the issue around independence and whether it is worth the time that it will take years, possibly decades, to get it right. Have you had that conversation with yourself?
- [32:56]
B
I've not probed his opinions. It's up to Matthew to make his own mind up about his politics. He obviously, I think he looks at his dad and I think some days, particularly when his dad's working life causes inconvenience for him, I suspect he thinks, why on earth are we putting up with all of this? And I am absolutely conscious of how much I ask of my family, because I ask an awful lot of them to enable me to do the role that I carry out.
- [33:26]
A
Could I turn that phrase, if you'll forgive me, in a different context back on you. Why are you asking the Scottish people, the people of the uk, to put up with all of this? We know that the last referendum on independence was deeply divisive. It split families, it split colleagues at work, it divided people between Scottish and English as well as well as between yes and no. You know, just like Brexit. I mean, what is this, a decade long process, something of that sort? Why put people. Why even talk about putting people through it all again?
- [34:02]
B
Well, I look at the issues that we face today and people in Scotland are hurting. Today they are hurting. Things are difficult. Standards of living in the United Kingdom have been flat as a pancake for 15 years and I think we've got to do something about that to enable people in Scotland to be able to live in a situation where the wealth of our country can be used to the benefit of the people of Scotland to enhance their standard of living, because it is hurting people to d. So.
- [34:34]
A
That'S why take the wealth of Scotland, you say, you talk about the wealth of Scotland, you want Scotland to have its hands, as it were, on Scotland's wealth. You talk in a slogan you use a lot. It's Scotland's energy, you say about Scotland's oil, but it's the policy of the SNP to leave the oil in the ground. Your predecessor, Nicola Sturgeon said it's tempting to tell ourselves that for economic and energy reasons we must keep exploring for extracting oil and gas until the last possible moment. That would be fundamentally wrong. So you don't want the Scottish people to have their hands on Scotland's wealth, you want to leave it down in the North Sea?
- [35:12]
B
Well, we're going to have an ongoing requirement for oil and gas in our economy for quite a number of years to come. So there is a logical and rational reason to continue to use that because our economy is not a fossil fuel free environment and economy just now.
- [35:30]
A
Sure. And to allow new exploration to allow Rosebank.
- [35:33]
B
Well, but that's all got to be, you know, we've set out that, that any question of new exploration has to be compatible with our journey on net zero. But there's also.
- [35:43]
A
Don't you not have an opinion about whether you develop Rosebank or not?
- [35:46]
B
Well, it has to be assessed to be determined.
- [35:48]
A
But you're the First Minister. I figure that you probably have assessed.
- [35:51]
B
Yes, but it's got to, it's got to be assessed by all of that process of inquiry to determine whether or not that would be the right decision to make.
- [36:01]
A
But forgive me, Johnson, you're running for election, you want another five years and you say you want independence to say to the Scottish people, well, I can't actually tell you whether I want to develop more and new oil and gas fields. Sorry, we'll come back, what, after the election?
- [36:15]
B
Well, what I'm saying is that Scotland has got a broad range of energy opportunities, phenomenal renewable energy opportunities that we need to develop and which provide us with the opportunity to deliver energy, security and progress in our journey to Net zero. And we've got to seize that. And I want to make sure that wealth is available to make sure that people in Scotland today are not suffering the sky high energy costs which undermine household and business opportunities in Scotland. And that's why independence matters.
- [36:45]
A
Yeah, but I would suggest that you have a bit of a habit, Mr. Sweden. You present yourself quite rightly, and I think lots of your political opponents say it too, as a decent man, as a considered man, a thoughtful man. But sometimes you dodge difficult decisions, don't you? I mean, take the issue of trans rights, which the SNP pushed through when you were in coalition with the Greens. We're now waiting for what the Scottish government will do in response to the Supreme Court, in response to the Equality and Human Rights Commission. But you're not telling us. Will you tell us soon?
- [37:21]
B
Well, we've set out revised guidance for education. We've set out revised guidance for the operation of the government estate. There is prisons guidance. There is. That is available. We've set out the police Scotland have set out new guidance in relation to policing. So I'm not quite sure I understand what the charge is here.
- [37:45]
A
Well, the charge is that you have not fully set out how all public services will react to that.
- [37:50]
B
Well, I would contend that the government has set out the necessary guidance to enable us to.
- [37:56]
A
You were going to meet with gender critical women and you decided you weren't going to.
- [38:00]
B
Well, the issue there is the fact that there is a live. There's live court proceedings that involve that organisation. And my judgment is that when there's live court proceedings on the go, it's not a wise idea for me to be meeting with organisations with whom we are involved in live court proceedings. So that's just that. So it's not. It's not. I'm not prepared to do it. I just think it's not a good idea when we've got live court proceedings underway.
- [38:25]
A
Understood. I began this conversation by asking about. I don't know if. Is friendship too strong a word for your relationship with Donald Trump?
- [38:34]
B
I can't say that I have a friendship with President Trump.
- [38:36]
A
You've got a working. Good working relationship.
- [38:38]
B
Good working relationship. Perfectly courteous working relationship.
- [38:41]
A
He's 79, you're 61. Do you fancy another 18 years? Would you want to be here as First Minister if and when Scotland votes for independence?
- [38:51]
B
Of course I would. And I've made it clear that I will lead the SNP into the Scottish Parliament elections in May. I obviously want to win those elections. I want to continue as First Minister and I would serve out the full five years of that term and expect to stand for re election in 2031. So I've given. I've a lot of experience, a lot of experience and I've used it effectively to make Scotland a better and a more prosperous and a fairer country. That really matters to me. And as First Minister, I want to make sure Scotland's got that experience, that trusted leadership that people can rely on to make sure this country is well led and well served.
- [39:32]
A
You've argued all your life for Scottish independence. You joined in the aftermath of that first referendum back in 1979. There are some who say it's not a strength to think the same thing in your 60s as you did in your teens when the world has changed so dramatically. You need to look at the world afresh, given what's happened.
- [39:54]
B
Yeah, I look at the world and I say the best way for Scotland to prosper is for us to be part of a strong collaboration in Europe. Because in my lifetime, I've seen Scotland becoming a much more outward looking country. In my lifetime, because of the benefits of positive exchange and engagement with European countries. I saw it happening to the great university that I had the privilege to attend in Edinburgh. I saw that university become a powerhouse of our city and our regional national economy. Why? Because of its outward looking focus. And that's just one example of how that's benefited Scotland. And I think Scotland would be well served by having more of that possibility.
- [40:40]
A
Now, we can't end this conversation without talking about the most important thing that will happen this year.
- [40:44]
B
Yes. That will be the World cup in the United States. Yes.
- [40:49]
A
Yes. Will you be going?
- [40:52]
B
If I didn't have enough reasons to want to remain First Minister, another definite reason is I want to be the first Minister that goes to the Scotland Games in the World Cup.
- [41:02]
A
Games, plural.
- [41:04]
B
Well, let's see.
- [41:05]
A
Hopefully the big one is against Brazil. Is there more chance of Scotland beating Brazil or of John Swinney still being in here when Scotland becomes independent, I.
- [41:19]
B
Think there's equal likelihood.
- [41:22]
A
Diplomatically put. First Minister, thank you for joining me on political thinking.
- [41:26]
B
Thank you very much.
- [41:28]
C
Hello, I'm Amol rajan and from BBC Radio 4. This is is radical. We are living through one of those hinge moments in history when all the old certainties crumble and a new world struggles to be born. So the idea behind this podcast is to help you navigate it.
- [41:46]
A
What's really changed is the volume of information that has exploded and also by.
- [41:53]
C
Offering a safe space for the radical ideas that our future demands.
- [41:57]
A
Go to the Chancellor and say cut, radically cut the taxes of those with children.
- [42:01]
B
Telling our stories is powerful and a radical act.
- [42:06]
C
Listen to Radical with Amol Rajan on BBC Sounds.