Lucy Powell: People have lost sense of Labour's values

Summary

---

Political Thinking with Nick Robinson

Episode Summary: Lucy Powell – “People have lost sense of Labour's values”

Date: September 17, 2025
Guest: Lucy Powell, MP for Manchester Central, former Leader of the House of Commons

---

Episode Theme and Purpose

In this episode, Nick Robinson sits down with Lucy Powell, now a candidate—and apparent front-runner—for Deputy Leader of the Labour Party following her recent departure from the Cabinet. The conversation focuses on Powell’s reflections on her political journey, her dismissal from government, her vision for the Deputy Leader role, and her critique of Labour’s recent trajectory—particularly the sense that the party has become disconnected from its traditional values and voter coalitions.

Powell speaks candidly on Labour’s internal dynamics, party identity, the role of party activism, the need to repair relationships with both the left and right-leaning elements of Labour’s historic coalition, and her priorities for reconnecting the party with grassroots members and disenchanted voters.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Powell's Cabinet Dismissal and Pursuit of Deputy Leadership

• Shock and Response:
  Powell describes being sacked as “a kind of shock, but not a total surprise” ([03:01]) due to her not being “in the in-crowd” and regularly offering feedback that leadership may not have wanted to hear.
  • “My attitude to these sort of jobs has always been that you don’t know how long you’re going to be in them… Politics is… febrile.” (Lucy Powell, [03:18])
• Lack of Reason Given:
  Powell admits the Prime Minister (Keir Starmer) called her personally but “just said he needed to make way… It's not about you. I just need to sort of make some changes” ([04:01]).
• Desire to Bridge Party to Leadership:
  One reason for her candidacy: “I've played that role as shop steward...as the bridge between the leadership and what is happening in the party and with MPs” ([05:07]).
• On Not Being in Cabinet:
  Powell positions the Deputy Leader job as “not being inside the Cabinet, not being constrained by time and collective agreement...but working full time at that connection with the constituencies, communities, trade unions and MPs” ([08:43]).

2. Reflections on Labour’s Recent Challenges

• Disconnection from Labour’s Base:
  Powell acknowledges, even after Labour’s win in 2024, that the party “got half a million votes less than Jeremy Corbyn did [in 2019].” ([18:35])
• Fracturing of Political Coalitions:
  “We’ve seen a huge fracturing in politics... The challenge for us as Labour is how we reunite our voter coalition and how we rebuild that.” ([19:13])

3. Vision for Labour’s Values and Voter Coalition

• Economic Fairness as a Bridge:
  Powell identifies economic fairness as key: “Having a story to tell about whose side we're on and whose interests we're serving, especially around the economy, unites that voter coalition.” ([21:00])
• Loss of Values Clarity:
  “Part of what’s gone wrong is that people have lost sense of what those values are, on whose side we are governing.” ([22:18])
• Need for Clearer Communication:
  “Let’s just say it and be really clear with our body language and not feel like we're in a defensive crouch all the time.” ([26:19])

4. Specific Policy Flashpoints and Party Debates

• Child Poverty and Two-Child Cap:
  Powell advocates strongly for reducing child poverty:
  • “Reducing child poverty is the kind of moral purpose of any Labour government.” ([25:27])
  • On the two-child benefit cap: “It would be the single biggest policy we could do to address child poverty… but [timing] is a matter for the Chancellor and PM.” ([24:25])
• Welfare and Winter Fuel Mistakes:
  On policy U-turns: “They're mistakes we've all admitted along the way because we changed the threshold on the winter fuel and what we were doing on welfare.” ([23:06])
• Labour’s Gaza Problem:
  Powell recognizes trust lost over Labour’s Israel/Gaza response: “Some of that early phase of this conflict, we lost some trust because people didn’t see us on the side of a ceasefire.” ([27:56])
• Culture and Immigration:
  Powell addresses “tensions... worries about issues and people don’t think that things are working for them and are fair towards them.” ([31:29])
  On immigration: “There are obviously some positives from immigration, but these things are not all positives… it has to be seen to be fair.” ([35:41])

5. Personal and Political Backstory

• Family Influences:
  Lucy’s mother delayed going into hospital to vote Labour the day Lucy was born, highlighting her upbringing in a deeply political, Labour-supporting household ([14:10]-[14:44]).
• Personal Identity:
  Powell distances herself from “working class” label but emphasizes her family's social mobility and Manchester roots ([16:43]).
• Manchester as Political Model:
  Powell touts Manchester’s regeneration, inclusive housing policies, and civic leadership as inspirations for Labour’s approach nationally ([37:00]).

6. Labour Internal Politics and Relationship with Andy Burnham

• Dismisses “Westminster bubble” speculation that her candidacy is a stalking horse for Andy Burnham or a proxy for a split with Starmer ([38:47]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I think it's a strength, not a weakness… when we're getting things wrong… we should be able to say so.” (Lucy Powell, [07:43])

• “There must be a reason why I was chosen over somebody else to be made way for.” (Lucy Powell, [04:15])

• “This job… needs redefining… I think one of the lessons of [the Blair/Brown] time was we didn’t do enough to rebuild our party. We let the party wither on the vine…” (Lucy Powell, [09:48])

• “People have lost sense of what those values are. On whose side we are governing.” (Lucy Powell, [22:18])

• “Reducing child poverty is the kind of moral purpose of any Labour government.” (Lucy Powell, [25:27])

• “We have to always tell the story about what motivates us and in whose interests are we serving. Why are we in politics? … it's with us, not just because we're in government, but because we're the Labour party. We stand up for the progressive values, democracy, and for the many not the few.” (Lucy Powell, [26:44])

• On Andy Burnham: “I'm not Andy Burnham's spokesperson, so you'll have to ask Andy.” (Lucy Powell, [38:28])

• “If you want to see this government succeed, then I think I can do that job as a full time deputy showing people that when we work together and when we include everybody, we make better decisions.” (Lucy Powell, [40:11])

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:38] — Nick Robinson introduces the episode and Lucy Powell's recent political tumult
• [03:01] — Powell on being sacked from Cabinet
• [05:07] — Why Powell is standing for Deputy Leader; shop steward analogy
• [09:48] — Discussion about re-defining the Deputy Leader role outside Cabinet
• [13:45] — Powell’s political upbringing and family influences
• [18:35] — Nick Robinson challenges Labour’s 2024 victory
• [21:00] — Powell on rebuilding Labour’s voter coalition
• [22:18] — Values disconnection and policy “mistakes”
• [24:25] — Stance on two-child benefit cap and child poverty
• [26:19] — Communication and values messaging
• [27:56] — Labour’s Gaza response and impact on trust
• [31:29] — Tensions in communities over culture and migration
• [35:41] — Nuanced position on immigration
• [37:00] — Manchester as a model for Labour renewal
• [38:47] — Dismissing “proxy war” and Burnham speculation
• [40:11] — Final reflections: “If you want to see this government succeed…”

---

Flow and Tone

The conversation is open, candid, at times self-deprecating, and grounded in real political anxieties. Powell is direct without being sensationalist, focused on the party’s need for self-examination and renewal. Robinson remains probing but fair, challenging Powell with party data and public perceptions.

---

Summary

This episode features Lucy Powell at a pivotal political moment—offering insight on losing office, Labour’s identity crisis, internal party mechanics, and her proposed remedy: a Deputy Leader focused on active listening, activism, and honest feedback. Powell’s candid critique of Labour’s recent choices, her insistence on “telling the story” of Labour’s values, and her pragmatic yet principled approach to party unity and policy mark her as more than just a candidate—she frames herself as a bridge over the party’s widening divides.

Listeners come away with a nuanced view of Labour’s internal struggles, the ongoing redefinition of leadership roles in government, and Powell’s urgent call to restore clarity, unity, and purpose to the party’s mission.

---

Transcript

[Nick Robinson]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

Weight Watchers now offers access to affordable GLP1s.

[Lucy Powell]

It works for members like I'm Hailey and I've lost 100 pounds. Weight Watchers has everything I need from weight loss medications to nutrition support and help with my side effects.

[Nick Robinson]

It's all in one place.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

Weight Watchers handles the insurance for you.

[Lucy Powell]

And offers affordable cash pay options with.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

With our program, our members are losing.

[Lucy Powell]

More weight with expert nutrition and side effects support.

[Nick Robinson]

I'm Mike and I've lost 135 pounds. Weight Watchers prescribing GLP1 medications. It's been life changing.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

I'm Sharia and I lost 80 pounds on Weight Watchers.

[Lucy Powell]

I realized that it would take more.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

Than a prescription to lose weight and.

[Lucy Powell]

Feel good on a GLP1.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

Better results, expert support, lose more weight.

[Lucy Powell]

Make it last I can't imagine doing a GLP one without Weight Watchers.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

Get started for as low as $[e-mail] GLP for over 60 years we've helped millions of members find what works for them.

[Lucy Powell]

Now it's your turn. Weight Watchers Watch it work.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

Are we exposed? Security teams ask this every day. Vulnerabilities across network, cloud, AI and OT silos hide the truth and attackers are watching. Tenable unifies your tools, teams and data so you can spot and close risks fast. Tenable's AI powered exposure management gives teams one view of risk, helping them focus, take action and close critical exposures fast. Visit tenable.com tenable your exposure ends here.

[Nick Robinson]

Hello, who can tell Keir Starmer that he's getting things wrong? My guest on Political Thinking this week says she is the one who can do it. She is Lucy Powell, who's one of only two candidates and currently the front runner to be Keir Starmer's new deputy leader, replacing Angela Rader, who was forced to resign from the Cabinet. Lucy Powell was in Starmer's Cabinet herself until two weeks ago as the leader of the House of Commons, but she was sacked by the Prime Minister in the big reshuffle that was supposed to reset her government. The two may find they're working closer together than Keir Starmer ever expected. Lucy Powell, welcome to Political Thinking.

[Lucy Powell]

Hello. I wouldn't say I'm the front runner, but anyway, the polls say you're the.

[Nick Robinson]

Front runner, but maybe they're wrong. It's been quite a couple of weeks for you, haven't you? One minute you're in the Cabinet, then you're out of the Cabinet. And now you're running in this hugely important election to be deputy leader of the Labour Party. What's it be like for you?

[Lucy Powell]

I mean, it is a hugely important election and it's been really full on and a huge whirlwind, to be honest. And I think if I came up for air and really thought about it, I probably wouldn't be doing it at all. But, yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad I'm. I'm in it, but I'm just taking each day as it comes at the moment.

[Nick Robinson]

Was it a shock to lose your job in the Cabinet?

[Lucy Powell]

A kind of shock, but not a total surprise. I know I'm not really in the in crowd and I don't really sort of play some of the. The parlour games and I had fed back things that maybe weren't, with hindsight, maybe I thought I was doing the job I was supposed to be doing, but maybe that wasn't feedback people wanted to hear. So my attitude to these sort of jobs has always been that you don't know how long you're going to be in them. Try and do them to the best of your ability and make an impact while you're in them. Because politics is, as you know, it's very febrile. It's often not really good reason for why things happen or why decisions are made. And so you just have to sort of take it on the chin at the time.

[Nick Robinson]

Were you given a reason when you got the call saying, I don't want you in my Cabinet anymore?

[Lucy Powell]

No, I wasn't. And I did, I did ask in different ways.

[Nick Robinson]

And to be clear, we're talking about the Prime Minister himself. He didn't delegate it to someone else?

[Lucy Powell]

No, no, he phoned me. Yeah. I mean, he just said he needed to make way and the usual sort of kind of squit that you get in these, in these situations, oh, I need to make way, you know, it's not about you. I just need to sort of make some changes and everything else, so. But obviously there's got to be a. There must be a reason why I was chosen over somebody else to be made way for, so.

[Nick Robinson]

Have you guessed what that reason might be?

[Lucy Powell]

I don't really know. I mean, I think, look, I think certainly the role that I played as being the. I took on board, really the role as the sort of shop steward for the back benches for the House, that's my job as leader of the House, is to be the government's representative in the House and vice versa. And I think maybe some of what I was feeding back, especially around how difficult some pieces of legislation like welfare were going to be to land and the suggestions that I was making, I thought I was doing that to be helpful and maybe, maybe it was deemed messages that they didn't want to hear.

[Nick Robinson]

Is that why you now want to be deputy leader?

[Lucy Powell]

Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I want to be deputy leader is that I have played that role as shop steward over the, over the last year, and I think I've done that well, maybe you could say not always successfully, but I think I've done that well, and colleagues really wanted me to continue that. And I think it's so important at the moment that we have someone who is able to be that bridge between the leadership and what is happening in the party and with MPs and having a conduit for that. Angela did that brilliantly throughout her time as deputy leader. Losing her, losing me from the Cabinet, losing everybody else, I, I think without that conduit now, that's why we're seeing more of it in the airwaves, and I think I can help with that.

[Nick Robinson]

But are you saying that if we'd been a fly on the wall in the Cabinet, Lucy Powell, for the past year or so, has been saying to the Prime Minister, you're getting it wrong.

[Lucy Powell]

Look, I'm not going to go into, like, what happened at cabinets, like, I'm not. I'm not allowed to do that. But also, it wouldn't be the right thing for me to do. But there's not. It's not just around the Cabinet table. These conversations are had. But of course, it's. It was my job as leader of the House of Commons to make sure that our legislative program got through the House of Commons. And a big part of that job is understanding the political context, understanding the parliamentary handling, working with the Chief Whip and whoever was the lead minister to smooth that along and make sure that happens. But I don't know why I was. I don't know why I was sacked. I'm just surmising the reason.

[Nick Robinson]

I asked whether you raised it in the Cabinet, his Cabinet colleagues saying, I don't remember Lucy Powell raising all these objections. What you're saying are you. Is, look, maybe I didn't do it around the Cabinet table, but in private, I gave clear warnings about problems ahead.

[Lucy Powell]

Well, yeah, I don't need to justify myself in that, in that way. And I think, you know, those are private conversations and I'm not. I never briefed out of Cabinet or brief these sort of private things when I was in government, and I don't have any intention of doing that now, but it's my. It was my job to understand the parliamentary feeling that was a core part of my job, and to make sure that parliamentary feeling and parliamentary handling was always considered and always taken on board in trying to pass legislation. So that was my job.

[Nick Robinson]

So, to be clear, if you're deputy leader of the Labour Party, you see your job as transmitting the views of Labour and peace, of Labour activists, maybe Labour voters, to Keir Starmer, not acting as his spokesperson to the world.

[Lucy Powell]

Yeah, I see a really important part of this job to be that bridge, that constant feedback loop, that conduit, if you like, to make sure that our connection with our communities and that's what a strength of our movement, we've got. We've got all these members, a huge number of members, we've got trade union activists and members across the country who are plugged into their communities to make sure that voice and that connection, that feedback, feedback loop helps to shape what we're doing and how we tell the story about what we're doing. And I think I can do that job. And if. And I really want this Labour government to succeed, I really want Keir Starmer to succeed. And I think it's a strength, not a weakness. And it's certainly not something that's disloyal to say. Actually, when we're getting things wrong and when we're not having that conversation together and getting those things right, we should be able to say, so if you.

[Nick Robinson]

Are elected in a few weeks time, will you regard that as a message to the Prime Minister saying, put Lucy Powell back in the Cabinet, I don't.

[Lucy Powell]

Want to be back in the Cabinet. I think this job, a bit like John Prescott wanted to do this job back in the early 90s. I think there's a real virtue now to this job not being inside the Cabinet, not being constrained by time and collective agreement and all of that, but working full time, that connection with the constituency parties, with the communities, with the trade unions, with MPs all the time, and really developing that political narrative that I think people really want, that you can't do in government, that people really want to see us doing.

[Nick Robinson]

But that's odd, isn't it? Because when Labour's in government, normally the deputy leader is either deputy Prime Minister or another crucial minister. I mean, John Prescott was deputy to Tony Blair when Tony Blair was Prime Minister. Harriet Harman wasn't deputy Prime Minister, but she was Welfare Secretary had an important job in that government. Angela Rayner, clearly who you're trying to replace was Deputy Prime Minister. If you're not in the Cabinet, isn't the danger that you just become a focus of resistance to the leadership?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, no, I don't see it like that. I mean, the Prime Minister's been really clear that the Deputy Prime Minister is now David Lammy. So for me or for Bridget, you know, this role needs redefining in that context. And that's why I think it's really so the deputy leader of the Labour Party has no status in government at all. Its only status is derived if you're also Deputy Prime Minister, which this job won't be. And I think if you look back at our time in government under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown too, I think one of the lessons of that time was we didn't do enough to rebuild our party. We let the party sort of wither on the vine in those years and we had everything moved across to government and we didn't keep the focus on what we need to do, both the campaigning capacity and that connection, but also really doing this deep work on our political future, our political strategy and keeping that ideas train going.

[Nick Robinson]

I want to talk a little bit more about your diagnosis of the Labour Party's problems, of Keir Starmer's problems, and what you would do about it. But let's talk a little bit more about you being in the Cabinet and then out. That must be a shock.

[Lucy Powell]

I mean, I've not really come up for air, if I'm honest, because I had a weekend Friday afternoon, Saturday, Sunday, where I was just overwhelmed with the amount of unbelievably lovely and personal messages I was getting over that weekend, especially from MPS and new MPs. Many of them had found my advice and my counsel and my support over that year, you know, really, really important to them. So heartfelt messages, so. And then that kind of morphed into people saying, will you stand for Deputy Leader? Very, very quickly, so.

[Nick Robinson]

But your life changes, doesn't it, in a way. And I don't imagine you're wanting sympathy, but it is a dramatic change from the ministerial car and the office. It all goes like that.

[Lucy Powell]

I've had no office. Yeah, absolutely. I've had no office in the House of Commons. I've been doing the. Getting the nominations and standing for Deputy leader, camped in my good friend Jeff Smith office in the House of Commons, because I haven't had an office and I haven't had any staff for the two Weeks. I didn't make much use of the ministerial car, even when I was a minister. And I've always been very, very skeptical about the sort of trappings of office and getting used to any of the trappings of office. So I was in my constituency office in Manchester at the time. It was a Friday. That was a normal Friday for me. And, you know, I've got one of the best jobs in politics because I'm the MP for Manchester Central, my home city. I. Well, it's also the constituency for my football club. Nick. Sorry. Of Manchester City. But, you know, Manchester is a fantastic. Is a fantastic.

[Nick Robinson]

Sounds vaguely for me.

[Lucy Powell]

And I've. Look, I love my job as the MP for Manchester Central, and no one can take that away from me other than the electorate. So I was just getting on with that job, to be honest.

[Nick Robinson]

And you didn't know that you'd get the nominations to be deputy leader? Of course. I mean, because it all happened for very quickly. Other people put their names forward. Were you in doubt?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, I didn't really fully decide. Well, people keep saying, when did you decide? It was quite an evolution. But lots of people were suggesting that I did it, I think. And it's not something I've ever thought about, you know, Angela Raina is a good friend of mine doing a fantastic job, and of course, we all thought that she would be deputy Prime Minister and deputy pm, deputy leader of the Labour Party for many years to come. So that all happened quickly. It's not something I've ever really thought about, but, you know, people were suggesting. So I was sort of asking around colleagues in the votes on the Monday evening, and I could see there was quite a lot of support. So that's when I thought I'd go for it.

[Nick Robinson]

And then you have indeed gone for it. Well, let's learn a bit more about you. We know you're a Manchester City fan. You know, you're born and bred in Manchester, you represent Manchester Central. How political were your family? Did you grow up in a family in which politics was discussed at, you know, the dinner table, if you had one? Is that where your politics came from? Was it talked about in front of the telly? What, on the sofa?

[Lucy Powell]

Absolutely, yeah. I was. I was born on a general election day, so. And my mum went. Started feeling that she was in labor before the polls open, so she had to wait to go into hospital till the polls open. So she was in labor and voting Labor. That's our kind of strap line in the office. Sorry. At home in 1974 and my dad was a. Was a labor activist.

[Nick Robinson]

I've only just gotten on. Your mum delayed going to hospital to give birth to you?

[Lucy Powell]

Yeah.

[Nick Robinson]

In order to vote Labour?

[Lucy Powell]

Absolutely.

[Nick Robinson]

Have you ever said so? What were you thinking?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, it was just so important to them because they were, you know, they were. They're baby boomers, they children of the sort of 60s they'd gone to. They both were the first people to go to university and their family, they'd met at university. They were young. It was Manchester in the 70s and actually where they were voting in my side, where I was born at that point, had got a Conservative mp, you know, this was like a big election. It was the second election in 74 and they were determined to vote.

[Nick Robinson]

So there was never any doubt that you'd go into politics, was there, by the sense of it?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, that's what they, they always say. And my dad, my dad particularly, who was very active through, through my life and he was the local agent for the Labour Party, so he would put all together, all the leaflets. People would come round to our house and get those. He put me on the polling station to collect numbers. You know how we used to do it back in the day, Nick, you'll remember, with a rosette on in the 1983 election. So I was nine at the time and I sat there for the whole day with a rosette on, asking people for the polling numbers and my dad gave me a £1 note because it was still £1 notes at the time.

[Nick Robinson]

Do you remember what you used it to buy?

[Lucy Powell]

I don't think I do, actually, but I was. We. So we. Yes, I was very much in a political household, but it was a political time as well. Manchester. Yeah.

[Nick Robinson]

Lucy Powell paid to go canvassing.

[Lucy Powell]

Yes, exactly. It was obviously it was a donation rather than a payment, I think.

[Nick Robinson]

I think given it was your dad, I think we're probably allowed to do that now. Your dad was a social worker, your mum a teacher. We're often being told this is the most working class cabinet, you're no longer in it. But the cabinet that Keir Starmer formed ever in this country sounds quite middle class to me. And you went to school in Didsbury, which I know the area quite well. It's now referred to as Manchester Stockbroker Belt. The swankiest suburb. The Manchester Evening News. Calda, you're not really working class, are you?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, I've never claimed to be particularly. I mean, look, I'm very much working class roots in that sense. You know where my. My mum is the Daughter of Irish immigrants. You know, my dad grew up in a broken household, really, in a two up, two down with an outside toilet and went to grammar school. They were very young when they had me. We didn't have an awful lot when we were growing up, but they are that journey. Their life is that journey of social mobility and. Yeah, absolutely. I've marri married a doctor, you know, nothing more middle class than that. And, you know, my mum and dad, you know, lead a comfortable life now, of course, I went to a comprehensive school, but look where I grew up. It's definitely posher now, but it wasn't that posh then. It was Manchester in the 80s. The city was in decline. There was high unemployment, there was very low investment in anything. It was. Thatcher kind of left us withering on the vine. It was a very political time and it definitely wasn't an affluent time at all. I did go into Oxford and I got in and that was amazing. I cried the day I got the offer because I didn't want to go and I only stayed a year because I didn't like it. And I moved to King's College London instead.

[Nick Robinson]

Where you felt more comfortable?

[Lucy Powell]

Where I felt more comfortable because I was a. I was a duck out of water as a northern comprehensive school girl arriving at Oxford in 1993.

[Nick Robinson]

And it is people like that, isn't it? The people you describe who have been abandoning the Labour Party, you are losing the support of people who Labour activists would long have thought to be just core voters.

[Lucy Powell]

Yeah, I mean, look, we've. I think we won a huge election in 2024.

[Nick Robinson]

Yeah, but you didn't, did you? I mean, in this sense, you clearly did under the rules. I'm not. You know, clearly you won and you won big. But I was looking at the numbers today, I'd sort of forgotten them. Keir Starmer got half million votes less than Jeremy Corbyn did. Even when he was trounced by Boris Johnston in 2019, he got 3 million less more than 3 million than Jeremy Corbyn in 2017. And he barely improved on your old friend, your old boss, when you were chief of staff for ed Miliband in 2015, he got trounced as well. And Keir Starmer barely did better than Ed Miliband. So it was never a great victory in that sense, was it?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, we've seen a huge fracturing, haven't we, in politics? A huge fracturing of traditional voting alliances, of voter coalitions, those broad coalitions. I mean, in those elections that you describe in 2015, in 2019, 2010, you know, the main two political parties scooped up most of the most of the votes and that's been the case for a long time. But now we're seeing this multi party politics and the sort of fracturing of the voter coalition. I think the challenge for us as Labour is to how we reunite our voter coalition and how we rebuild that and tie that together in the coming years.

[Weight Watchers Advertiser]

From walking barefoot in the snow to hiking for miles for a view. It feels good to connect with our simpler side. Simplifying your wellness with Cachava's all in one nutrition shake feels good too with 25 grams of protein, 6 grams of fiber, greens adaptogens and more. No fillers, no nonsense, just the highest quality ingredients. New customers get $20 off an order of two bags or more now through January 31st when they go to Kachava K A C H a V a dot com and use code news.

[Nick Robinson]

As deputy leader. If you win, how do you reunite that coalition? Some people say the problem with the current leadership is, and it's a phrase I've often heard, they're trying to out reform reform. Do you think that's right?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, I take a lot of lessons from my own constituency actually. I mean, you know, my part of the world and half my constituency is what you might call, or pollsters would call a classic sort of red wall constituency. White working class, traditional voters, older voters living sometimes in their own home or social housing. And then the city centre is our more kind of younger, more liberal, kind of left leaning, if you like voters who have no particular loyalty. They haven't got that long standing cultural loyalty to labor and it's how we unite them together. And I don't think that tacking one way or tacking the other is how we do that. We have to have the, the common vision that can really unite that progressive voter coalition. And I think that lies in the economy. I mean they might not say it like that, but in a more fairer economy, an economy that works in the interests of the many and not the few and that we're really clear about whose side that we're on. And I think having a story to tell about whose side we're on and whose interests we're serving, especially around the economy, unites that voter coalition. And I did a big piece of work on that after the election in 2019 and that's what that showed as.

[Nick Robinson]

Well is that what's gone wrong in part for this government that it has looked as if you're on the wrong side. Taking money away from pensioners, trying to take money away from disabled people, putting up taxes on businesses small and large. Is that part of what's gone wrong?

[Lucy Powell]

I think part of what's gone wrong is that people have lost sense of. Of what those values are. On whose side? On whose side we are governing. And I think when you look at our many achievements and the many things that we have been doing, whether that's getting the waiting list down or the more NHS appointments, or some of the legislation that we brought in, Employment Rights Bill or the re nationalization or the public ownership of railways, we're taking on the vested interest in service of the many. But yes, some of the mistakes that we've made or some of the unforced errors have given a sense that we're not on the side of ordinary people. I think that's something I want out.

[Nick Robinson]

Of the unforced errors. You do mean winter fuel allowance and the attempt to cut £5 billion out of welfare budget?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, they're mistakes we've all admitted along the way because we've changed the threshold on the winter fuel and we changed what we were doing on welfare. So, you know, we've come to those conclusions ourselves while we've been in office.

[Nick Robinson]

Now, what? Because if you're elected Labor's deputy leader, it will be before Rachel Reeves delivers her crucial budget. 10 weeks to go until that budget. What sort of ideas will you be arguing that should be included in that budget?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, look, I think it's really important that I don't, and we don't in this contest, try and sort of write some alternative budget or some alternative policy programme that's actually not what the job of deputy leader of the Labour Party is. In any case, you know, this is a sort of campaigner in chief, a conduit for the communities that we represent and our members into the. The leadership of government. And so I don't think it's kind of useful or helpful for me to provide an alternative policy program on that.

[Nick Robinson]

But there is one, though, that is talked about endlessly by people in the Labour Party. Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, has talked about it. Scrap the 2 child benefit cap. The government's looking at it. Would you be urging them now you're outside the cabinet, to look even harder?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, what I would be really clear about, I think we need to be clearer because this is absolutely to the core of what we're about, is that this Labour government, like any Labour government, wants to reduce child poverty. And it's very, very clear from all the evidence that the child. The two child benefit cap would be the single biggest policy we could do to address child poverty. So I think being in favor of the principle and that being an objective and really people understanding that's what we're working towards, I think is really important. The question is the how and the. And the when, and that is obviously a matter for the Chancellor and the Prime Minister and others to sort of work that through, but I think we've got to have a slightly different body language about that, which I know is what we all believe, it's what we all think. And just being clearer with people that these are principles that we're in favour of. We can't do them all straight away and we can't do them all even necessarily in the first term, but they are principles that we're working towards. And reducing child poverty is the kind of moral purpose of any Labour government.

[Nick Robinson]

So you once described yourself. I thought it was a fascinating phrase. There's an egg breaker.

[Lucy Powell]

Yeah.

[Nick Robinson]

You're prepared to break eggs to say we've got to be seen to be on the side of the poor.

[Lucy Powell]

Yeah. And I. Look, I want to have that conversation within the. Within the family. On. On the whole. This is my first broadcast interview since last Friday. You know, I'm not here to provide a running commentary or to provide an alternative policy platform, but I am here to say, look, let's communicate much more strongly what our values are, what our motivations are, whose side we are on, and connect that back to our communities through our great movement, which is. Which is our strength.

[Nick Robinson]

Hugh Stormer has said he'd like to get rid of the two child benefits.

[Lucy Powell]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Nick Robinson]

You're just saying say it louder.

[Lucy Powell]

I think better. Let's just say it and be really clear with our body language and not feel like we're in a defensive crouch all the time, that we have to kind of find it. I. I know that Keir Starmer is, you know, he. He personally is committed to that, but.

[Nick Robinson]

Are you saying then that this is a comms problem, it's a PR problem, that if only Keir Starmer could be clearer in the way he speaks, with a clearer message. Or are you saying there's something more fundamental?

[Lucy Powell]

I think it's. It's kind of. It comes with a purpose, isn't it? In that sense, I think we've always got to. To tell the story about what motivates us and in whose interests are we serving? Why are we in politics? And politics is a really difficult juncture. I Think now, our whole democracy, the fracturing, the division, the sort of challenge to our fundamental ways of which we do democracy, and the responsibility is with us, not just because we're in government, but because we're the Labour Party. We stand up for the progressive values, we stand up for democracy, and we stand up for the many and not the few. And bringing people together, that's what we've always stood for.

[Nick Robinson]

You were clear that you didn't want to choose between whether you try and get people who've gone to reform or you try and get people who arguably have gone to the left, abandoned the Labour Party to support the Greens, maybe Jeremy Corbyn's new party, some of those independent girls are candidates. But let's just get a bit of a feel. I mean, will you have a view, if you're deputy leader, do you have a view now on something that many who are going to the left say, got to be stronger and clearer on Gaza?

[Lucy Powell]

Yeah, and we are. We have been losing votes to both sides, let's just be clear about that. And I think tacking one way or the other is not how you. How you do that. But look, the Gaza issue, I think, has been a difficult one in terms of the communities listening to us and having some of that, the trust with people, especially some of the early actions we took on that. I think that Kiir has been really strong in his condemnation in recent months, you know, at the dispatch box last week against the actions of the Israeli government over the summer calling for the recognition of Palestine, which is really, really important, something I've long supported, the sanctions, the ending of the. The suspension of the trade talks, you know, really strong action. But I think some of that early phase of this conflict, we. We lost some trust because people didn't see us on the side of a ceasefire and of a political solution. So perhaps they're not hearing what we've said lately, but I think the Prime Minister's been really strong in recent months.

[Nick Robinson]

We're recording this just as Israel's troops move into Gaza City on Tuesday afternoon. So you can't anticipate that. But do you want to see the government, hear the government going further?

[Lucy Powell]

I think we've got more tools in our armory that we can deploy. You know, call it genocide, the. The atrocities. Well, look, I mean, that is for an international court. Let's, let's just be clear. That is for an international court, but the evidence is mounting and the evidence is all pointing in one direction towards judges. And these atrocities that we're seeing, the Famine, you know, the man made famine that is happening. The civilian deaths, the oppression, the what's happening in the west bank, you know, this. We do need to roundly condemn this. And we have, as I say, I think in recent months taken some strong action, but we perhaps people just haven't heard that from the early on mistakes.

[Nick Robinson]

But to be clear, you're saying, yes, it's a legal position, yes, it's for an international court, but your view is we're getting close to when you can call this genocide.

[Lucy Powell]

Well, it's not for me on a, on a radio show to, to make, to make that. But I mean the evidence is, is mounting, isn't it? And I think that's clear now.

[Nick Robinson]

You've talked as it were, about the things that often people say, people who are moving to the left want to hear now what about those who attempted to go towards reform and that tends to be around migration, about the small boats, about culture, if you like. What did you think when you saw that march, the United Kingdom March of150,000 People?

[Lucy Powell]

People? Well, I know that many people will have felt fearful for themselves in, in London that, that day as well, because the motivation, it might not be the motivation of everybody on the march, but the, the motivation of those that organized it, I think was to, to divide and to intimidate and to fracture our, you know, some of the, the values that we hold dear, the values of, of tolerance, the value of the rule of law, you know, these great British sort of values. So we need to, to call that out. And there was, isn't the problem.

[Nick Robinson]

You're not listening then? Because what somebody like Trevor Phillips says, distinguished journalist, but after all he was chair of the London assembly for the Labour Party some years ago and worth and relevant to say a black Britain said I don't recognize extremism amongst the vast majority of people he saw on those march. I see people are proud in their country and proud of their flag and want to be hear and don't think they're heard by the elites.

[Lucy Powell]

Well, look, there are people, of course there is lots of people who are, I think most people in this country are proud of their flag, proud of their country, they want to be heard. And I think what we're seeing and you know, we've got to be really kind of honest about this is there are tensions, there are worries about issues and people don't think that necessarily things are working for them and are fair towards them. And you know, it's not just the, the small boats issue, but the, the placing of people in, in communities where the councils and others don't have the, the capacity and the services to support them, you know, putting them in HMOs and so called hotels. I mean, what a terrible kind of bit of language is, is, is that. And yeah, this is causing tensions in our community and we've got to be, we've got to be honest about that.

[Nick Robinson]

Because here you say it's about fairness. Yeah, I hear you say it's about economic opportunity. You've always been reluctant to say it is about what many people say it's about, which is culture, migration, about the change in Britain and you know, the criticism that's been made of you in the past that you're dismissive of these things. You got into trouble, didn't you, for being seen to minimize the issue of grooming gangs when it was raised on a radio program. You accused the person raise it of engaging in a dog whistle, which for people who don't know is a code for saying, you know, trying to woo racists in that way. Have you, have you moved on in your thinking? Do you accept that there are other issues other than fairness in the economy?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, look, just to be absolutely clear, I certainly. It's a phrase I should not have used in that. Any questions debate and I apologize for that immediately because I wouldn't want anyone to think for a second that there was a fiber in my body that didn't think that those victims of grooming gangs didn't need to get full accountability, full justice, and that those who covered it up or allowed it to happen shouldn't face full accountability and justice as well. And I, I hadn't intended it to be in that kind of those racist connotations. It's a slightly different thing and it was taken out of context. But I absolutely.

[Nick Robinson]

What somebody says and give you the chance to reply. The former Labour MP Tom Harris writes for the Telegraph. Now. He was pretty brutal about you. He says few in Labour's ranks more accurately represent the dismissiveness and elitism towards concerns over multiculturalism that have turned off so many former labor voters. He thinks crudely, he thinks you don't get it.

[Lucy Powell]

Well, I completely reject that and I know firsthand, look, I've got, there's a, an asylum hotel in, in my own constituency award in my constituency when I first got elected, where UKIP at the time nearly took that seat from labor, where the BMP were really big in East Manchester, in my constituency as well. And I know what it takes to, to fight these things. Off. And what people want to see, they want to see action in their local area on crime and antisocial behavior. They do want to see everybody abiding the law and they're not being kind of one rule for some and a different rule for others. They want to see the allocation of housing being fair to local people and not others getting the allocation of housing and public services being addressed. I know completely, you know, how these tensions and how these issues can take hold in communities, and I understand that. I understand when people see change happening really quickly in their area. And I represent Manchester. Manchester is a sort of melting pot of. Of different eras of immigration. My family were Irish immigrants. We had the Windrush generation. That's happened over time. Big Somali community came in, in the. In the 90s. And I understand completely that this. These can cause tensions and problems and we have to ensure that. That local people feel they've got opportunity and access and that it's not them versus us.

[Nick Robinson]

Would you like to see the Labour Party, if you become deputy leader, make the positive case for immigration?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, look, there are obviously some positives from immigration, but it's. But these things are not all positives. There are downsides, too. It has to be managed, it has to be seen to be fair. People have to, you know, if they don't have a right to be here, they need to be returned. And people want to see that. And when they feel like there's a loss of control of that and there's quick change in their communities, people get cross about that. And I totally understand that.

[Nick Robinson]

Talking of quick change, what's happened to all the Manchester MPs? I mean, you got sacked from the Cabinet. Angela Rayner had to leave the cabinet. Jim McMahon from Oldham was sacked as a junior minister. Mike Kane was sacked as a Transport minister. Claire Reynolds was sacked as the political director of Downing Street. Keith Harbour. Got something against your in my home city?

[Lucy Powell]

I don't know. You'd have to ask them. But look, there was some really, really great colleagues who were as, shall we say, relieved of their duties in that reshuffle. And, you know, I think we've got a lot of colleagues with a lot. They want to contribute, they want to help shape this Labour government. They want this Labour government to succeed. And we've got to use everybody's talents in doing that, everybody's perspectives in doing that.

[Nick Robinson]

Can the folk in London learn a bit from the politics of the folk in Manchester?

[Lucy Powell]

I think. I think so. When you look at what we've done in Manchester, the Civic Leadership that's been provided and the leadership that's been provided in Manchester over many, many years, long before we had a mayor even, that's really regenerated our city, created economic and job opportunities for people. It's done that in a more inclusive way. We have new and better housing. And so, for example, always in. In my constituency, where there is regeneration, that happens. People, local people, get like, for, like, property, so we don't kind of ship people out and then build some new houses. It's always, like, for, like. And that keeps communities together.

[Nick Robinson]

Greater Manchester has got a bear, of course, Andy Burnham. Would it be sad if he had to leave the city? Would it be good for Westminster if he came back to Westminster?

[Lucy Powell]

Well, look, Andy is. I think Andy is a. A great politician. He's incredibly popular. I think he's a great communicator and his record so far in Greater Manchester, I think stands for itself. What he's done for our buses, which, you know, are now more reliable and cheaper and more people are using them on building more social homes, tackling homelessness.

[Nick Robinson]

He's got a choice now, though. Does he stay in Manchester or does he come down? I don't think he's the Commons, as lots of people are urging him to do.

[Lucy Powell]

Well, I don't see a choice before him, to be honest. I mean, he's. He's got a job, which he. I know he loves and he's really good at that.

[Nick Robinson]

Few people who think he'd quite like another job called Leader of the Labour Party and Prime Minister.

[Lucy Powell]

Well, I'm not Andy Burnham spokesperson, so you'll have to. You'll have to ask Andy. But there are people you know who.

[Nick Robinson]

Say, hey, Lucy Powell, she's a stalking horse for Andy Burnham. That's what this contest is really about. Bridget Philipson's backing Keir Starmer. Lucy Powell's a bit hacked off. She got sacked by Keir Starmer, so she wants Andy Burnham to be Prime Minister.

[Lucy Powell]

I mean, it's just classic Westminster bubble obsession, that, isn't it, really? You've got two strong women standing in a. In an open and transparent contest. And instead of talking about the two strong women, everybody's talking about this being a sort of proxy for war between two men, which, quite honestly, I find kind of sexist. But it's also completely.

[Nick Robinson]

The airways have been filled for days now with Labour MP saying he's not up to it. Keir Starmer, is he.

[Lucy Powell]

I think Kier is, you know, phenomenal politician. Look at his record and what he's done. And I really, really want him to succeed and this labor government to succeed. And, and actually I, that's partly why I'm standing, because I think success comes from listening and responding and acting and taking on board a wider set of voices and a wider group of people. And that makes, that is our strength and that will make us more successful. And I think I'm the person that can bring that to the table and really be that conduit that at the moment, without that conduit, we've lost that now with Angela going and other people going, me included. And maybe that's partly why it's spilling into the airwaves, because there isn't a place within for people to actually have these conversations and have that feedback loop.

[Nick Robinson]

Funny enough, you're saying to people, if you want to save Keir Starmer, you better vote for Lucy Powell, because I can make him do a better job.

[Lucy Powell]

Well, if, if you want to see this government succeed, then I think I can do that job as a full time deputy showing people that when we, we work together and when we include everybody, we make better decisions, we show the country our values and not being afraid to say when we're getting things wrong, but, but not, you know, hitting the airwaves, doing that every day.

[Nick Robinson]

You also have to be honest about where you are now. I hesitate to make any footprint football metaphor given, you know that I support Manchester United, a rather failing football team at the moment. You support the rather more successful Manchester City.

[Lucy Powell]

It's not always been that way though, Nick.

[Nick Robinson]

No, this is true.

[Lucy Powell]

Most of my life it's been the opposite way around.

[Nick Robinson]

Yes, I have reminded you of that from time to time. Do me a favor, do the metaphor. Is it half time in the politics that we're witnessing and is labor 3 nil down, but still got a chance of catching up?

[Lucy Powell]

I, I don't see it, I don't see it like that. Look, I think this is, this is really important we, we get this right. We were given a very big mandate in that election in 2024. Whether, whether you dispute the nature of that mandate or not, we were given a really big mandate to change. We have to show the country that we are on their side and we will bring about the change that they want to see. Because if we don't, I really do fear about the future of our democracy altogether it resting on our shoulders to prove the model, prove the point. And you know, I really want to help do that.

[Nick Robinson]

If this government doesn't succeed, you mean you end up with a politics that you fear.

[Lucy Powell]

And we see it happening already with the fracturing of society, with the fracturing of politics, with the undermining of democracy and trust in politics. And, and I think one of the issues we've kind of had really is that and you'll recognize this, Nick, because you followed these things longer than me. I think politics is moving faster than I've ever, ever known it in recent years. Government is very slow. We need to bridge the gap between a fast paced politics and a government that is slow. And I think having a full time deputy leader out being the representative of politics and the party can really help bridge that gap. And that's one of the reasons that this transition into government I think has been harder than we expected.

[Nick Robinson]

Lucy Powell, thank you for not teasing me about my football team and thank you for joining me on Political Thinking.

[Lucy Powell]

Thank you for having me.

[Nick Robinson]

It's a fascinating pitch that the woman who was in the Cabinet until just under two weeks ago is making. She says she wants to be independent. She's an outsider. She wants to be able to to bring the truth as she sees it, as Labour Party members see it, as MPs see it, straight to the Prime Minister. The choice that Labour members have got when they come to vote for the next deputy leader is whether that will deal with the problems Labour have got or risk making them worse. It's going to be a fascinating contest. Thanks for listening to Political Thinking. The producer is Daniel Kramer. The editor is Giles Edwards. And do remember to check out my old friend Amal Rajan's podcast, Radical. This week he speaks to the former editor of British Vogue, Edward Eninfel, who's launched a new media business to promote diversity in an era of anti woke. That episode will be available from Thursday. You can subscribe to Radical. You can subscribe to Political Thinking on BBC Sounds. And remember, there's a big back catalogue of previous interviews that I've done in recent years. You can get it on Sounds and indeed, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rory Stewart]

I'm Rory Stewart and I want to talk about Heroes. When I was a child, I imagined a heroic future for myself in which I would achieve great things and die sacrificing my life for a noble cause before I was 30. But my experiences in the Middle east and in politics showed me that there was something deeply wrong with my idea of Heroism. From BBC Radio 4. My podcast the Long History of Heroism explores ideas of what it meant to be a hero through time. How have these ideas changed? Who are the heroes we need today Listen to Rory Stewart, the Long History of Heroism, first on BBC Sounds.