Political Thinking with Nick Robinson

Episode Summary: Lucy Powell – “People have lost sense of Labour's values”

Date: September 17, 2025
Guest: Lucy Powell, MP for Manchester Central, former Leader of the House of Commons

Episode Theme and Purpose

In this episode, Nick Robinson sits down with Lucy Powell, now a candidate—and apparent front-runner—for Deputy Leader of the Labour Party following her recent departure from the Cabinet. The conversation focuses on Powell’s reflections on her political journey, her dismissal from government, her vision for the Deputy Leader role, and her critique of Labour’s recent trajectory—particularly the sense that the party has become disconnected from its traditional values and voter coalitions.

Powell speaks candidly on Labour’s internal dynamics, party identity, the role of party activism, the need to repair relationships with both the left and right-leaning elements of Labour’s historic coalition, and her priorities for reconnecting the party with grassroots members and disenchanted voters.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Powell's Cabinet Dismissal and Pursuit of Deputy Leadership

• Shock and Response:
  Powell describes being sacked as “a kind of shock, but not a total surprise” ([03:01]) due to her not being “in the in-crowd” and regularly offering feedback that leadership may not have wanted to hear.
  • “My attitude to these sort of jobs has always been that you don’t know how long you’re going to be in them… Politics is… febrile.” (Lucy Powell, [03:18])
• Lack of Reason Given:
  Powell admits the Prime Minister (Keir Starmer) called her personally but “just said he needed to make way… It's not about you. I just need to sort of make some changes” ([04:01]).
• Desire to Bridge Party to Leadership:
  One reason for her candidacy: “I've played that role as shop steward...as the bridge between the leadership and what is happening in the party and with MPs” ([05:07]).
• On Not Being in Cabinet:
  Powell positions the Deputy Leader job as “not being inside the Cabinet, not being constrained by time and collective agreement...but working full time at that connection with the constituencies, communities, trade unions and MPs” ([08:43]).

2. Reflections on Labour’s Recent Challenges

• Disconnection from Labour’s Base:
  Powell acknowledges, even after Labour’s win in 2024, that the party “got half a million votes less than Jeremy Corbyn did [in 2019].” ([18:35])
• Fracturing of Political Coalitions:
  “We’ve seen a huge fracturing in politics... The challenge for us as Labour is how we reunite our voter coalition and how we rebuild that.” ([19:13])

3. Vision for Labour’s Values and Voter Coalition

• Economic Fairness as a Bridge:
  Powell identifies economic fairness as key: “Having a story to tell about whose side we're on and whose interests we're serving, especially around the economy, unites that voter coalition.” ([21:00])
• Loss of Values Clarity:
  “Part of what’s gone wrong is that people have lost sense of what those values are, on whose side we are governing.” ([22:18])
• Need for Clearer Communication:
  “Let’s just say it and be really clear with our body language and not feel like we're in a defensive crouch all the time.” ([26:19])

4. Specific Policy Flashpoints and Party Debates

• Child Poverty and Two-Child Cap:
  Powell advocates strongly for reducing child poverty:
  • “Reducing child poverty is the kind of moral purpose of any Labour government.” ([25:27])
  • On the two-child benefit cap: “It would be the single biggest policy we could do to address child poverty… but [timing] is a matter for the Chancellor and PM.” ([24:25])
• Welfare and Winter Fuel Mistakes:
  On policy U-turns: “They're mistakes we've all admitted along the way because we changed the threshold on the winter fuel and what we were doing on welfare.” ([23:06])
• Labour’s Gaza Problem:
  Powell recognizes trust lost over Labour’s Israel/Gaza response: “Some of that early phase of this conflict, we lost some trust because people didn’t see us on the side of a ceasefire.” ([27:56])
• Culture and Immigration:
  Powell addresses “tensions... worries about issues and people don’t think that things are working for them and are fair towards them.” ([31:29])
  On immigration: “There are obviously some positives from immigration, but these things are not all positives… it has to be seen to be fair.” ([35:41])

5. Personal and Political Backstory

• Family Influences:
  Lucy’s mother delayed going into hospital to vote Labour the day Lucy was born, highlighting her upbringing in a deeply political, Labour-supporting household ([14:10]-[14:44]).
• Personal Identity:
  Powell distances herself from “working class” label but emphasizes her family's social mobility and Manchester roots ([16:43]).
• Manchester as Political Model:
  Powell touts Manchester’s regeneration, inclusive housing policies, and civic leadership as inspirations for Labour’s approach nationally ([37:00]).

6. Labour Internal Politics and Relationship with Andy Burnham

• Dismisses “Westminster bubble” speculation that her candidacy is a stalking horse for Andy Burnham or a proxy for a split with Starmer ([38:47]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I think it's a strength, not a weakness… when we're getting things wrong… we should be able to say so.” (Lucy Powell, [07:43])

• “There must be a reason why I was chosen over somebody else to be made way for.” (Lucy Powell, [04:15])

• “This job… needs redefining… I think one of the lessons of [the Blair/Brown] time was we didn’t do enough to rebuild our party. We let the party wither on the vine…” (Lucy Powell, [09:48])

• “People have lost sense of what those values are. On whose side we are governing.” (Lucy Powell, [22:18])

• “Reducing child poverty is the kind of moral purpose of any Labour government.” (Lucy Powell, [25:27])

• “We have to always tell the story about what motivates us and in whose interests are we serving. Why are we in politics? … it's with us, not just because we're in government, but because we're the Labour party. We stand up for the progressive values, democracy, and for the many not the few.” (Lucy Powell, [26:44])

• On Andy Burnham: “I'm not Andy Burnham's spokesperson, so you'll have to ask Andy.” (Lucy Powell, [38:28])

• “If you want to see this government succeed, then I think I can do that job as a full time deputy showing people that when we work together and when we include everybody, we make better decisions.” (Lucy Powell, [40:11])

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:38] — Nick Robinson introduces the episode and Lucy Powell's recent political tumult
• [03:01] — Powell on being sacked from Cabinet
• [05:07] — Why Powell is standing for Deputy Leader; shop steward analogy
• [09:48] — Discussion about re-defining the Deputy Leader role outside Cabinet
• [13:45] — Powell’s political upbringing and family influences
• [18:35] — Nick Robinson challenges Labour’s 2024 victory
• [21:00] — Powell on rebuilding Labour’s voter coalition
• [22:18] — Values disconnection and policy “mistakes”
• [24:25] — Stance on two-child benefit cap and child poverty
• [26:19] — Communication and values messaging
• [27:56] — Labour’s Gaza response and impact on trust
• [31:29] — Tensions in communities over culture and migration
• [35:41] — Nuanced position on immigration
• [37:00] — Manchester as a model for Labour renewal
• [38:47] — Dismissing “proxy war” and Burnham speculation
• [40:11] — Final reflections: “If you want to see this government succeed…”

Flow and Tone

The conversation is open, candid, at times self-deprecating, and grounded in real political anxieties. Powell is direct without being sensationalist, focused on the party’s need for self-examination and renewal. Robinson remains probing but fair, challenging Powell with party data and public perceptions.

Summary

This episode features Lucy Powell at a pivotal political moment—offering insight on losing office, Labour’s identity crisis, internal party mechanics, and her proposed remedy: a Deputy Leader focused on active listening, activism, and honest feedback. Powell’s candid critique of Labour’s recent choices, her insistence on “telling the story” of Labour’s values, and her pragmatic yet principled approach to party unity and policy mark her as more than just a candidate—she frames herself as a bridge over the party’s widening divides.

Listeners come away with a nuanced view of Labour’s internal struggles, the ongoing redefinition of leadership roles in government, and Powell’s urgent call to restore clarity, unity, and purpose to the party’s mission.