Nigel Farage: 'Broken Britain', national identity and lessons from Trump

Summary

Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Episode: Nigel Farage — 'Broken Britain', National Identity, and Lessons from Trump
Broadcast Date: February 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this extended and candid conversation, Nick Robinson talks to controversial Reform UK leader Nigel Farage about his political comeback, the rise of his party, the state of Britain, and how he’s preparing for a possible shot at becoming Prime Minister. Farage discusses his views on national identity, immigration, the economy, lessons from Donald Trump, and reflects on incidents from his personal and political past. Robinson presses Farage on divisive topics, pushing for clarity on who counts as “British,” his record on tax and spending, and his relationships with prominent figures at home and abroad.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Farage's Return to Politics and Reform UK’s Rise

(01:07–03:50)

• Farage recounts his move from semi-retirement back into politics after considering a brief return to Parliament:
  • “I was in semi-retirement… I’d just turned 60, first couple of grandkids… actually getting quite a connection with people out there.” (02:05-02:52)
• The snap election called by Rishi Sunak prompted his decision to run:
  • “I mulled it for four or five days and I thought, do you know what? The hell with it, I’m gonna have a go.” (03:39-03:50)
• He acknowledges his multiple failed attempts to enter Parliament, defending past results as “pressure group” runs for UKIP, but insists he genuinely didn’t know if he’d stand again. (03:50-04:16)

2. State of the Nation: 'Broken Britain’

(04:38–10:56)

• Farage describes an economic, social, and cultural decline in Britain, blaming both established parties for denial:
  • “The country is in economic decline. No one dares admit it… it’s in societal decline… what’s happened to my town… to my city?” (04:38-05:30)
• He uses rallies to ask directly if “Britain is broken,” claims rapid decline in national cohesion.
• Discusses law and order, claiming, "Not a single family I know... has not had one of their family members be a victim of crime [last year] in London." (09:43-10:02)
• Stresses Reform UK’s message is ultimately optimistic:
  • “…we are overwhelmingly an optimistic political movement, having accepted reality.” (10:56)

3. National Identity and 'Our Own People' Debate

(11:23–16:33)

• The core slogan is "family, community, country"—Farage laments the erosion of values tied to these.
• On “our own people” and who is British:
  • “Instinctively respond, I’m British, to be part of it…” (13:16)
  • “It’s about a sense of belonging… you can’t actually divide them out.” (13:50)
• Raises concerns about resentment among long-standing citizens over access to services, tying it strongly to immigration and fairness.
• Pushes back against racial/ethnic definitions, responding to Suella Braverman and Matt Goodwin’s arguments:
  • “I’m not gonna start drawing ethnic lines on what being English is… it’s about how you feel and… what your priorities are.” (16:06)
• Criticizes the education system for “almost Marxist poisoning of the minds of young people.” (13:50)

4. The ‘Colonisation’ Row and Mass Migration

(16:33–20:23)

• Discusses business leader Sir Jim Ratcliffe’s divisive claim that the UK has been “colonized”:
  • Farage: “If you took the sort of dictionary definition... you see road signs... in foreign languages... almost unrecognisable as English or British.” (18:36-19:14)
• Agrees with Ratcliffe on population impact, blames mass migration for public service and infrastructure strain:
  • “…mass migration has done us harm and made us poorer. And I think he’s absolutely right.” (20:23)

5. Policy and Practicalities: What Would Farage Do?

(20:23–24:50)

• Promises stronger action on illegal immigration, deportation for criminal acts, and zero acceptance of Afghan male refugees.
• Advocates deeper social integration but insists:
  • “No government can force that.” (22:08-23:12)
• Emphasizes need for tough enforcement against divisive organizations, naming the Muslim Brotherhood:
  • "They've infiltrated our police forces... our civil service, our education system." (23:33-24:12)
• Accepts multicultural realities cannot be reversed overnight, pushes for “deeper assimilation.” (24:32-24:50)

6. Race, Accusations, and Farage’s Past

(26:07–29:21)

• Revisits historic admiration for Enoch Powell, dismisses its contemporary relevance:
  • “Going back to things that happened… nearly 60 years ago… is not particularly relevant.” (26:35)
• Firmly denies allegations of racist behavior at school:
  • “Absolute rubbish… I never even met him [the accuser]… he’s a Marxist political activist.” (28:40-28:57)

7. Economic Philosophy: Thatcherite or Not?

(30:05–33:11)

• Describes the energy and social mobility of 1980s City of London with nostalgia:
  • “Buzz… ambition, possibility, the ability to make money…” (30:37)
  • “We had a rise during that period of living standards unlike anything ever seen before…” (31:20-32:11)
• Rejects the idea that he's simply a Thatcherite, arguing for more state intervention now due to changed global circumstances:
  • “…different times demand different thinking and different solutions… we must go on being a steel maker.” (32:35–34:11)

8. Tax, Public Spending, and Council Tax Controversy

(34:32–37:47)

• Defends past campaign promises on tax cuts versus council tax rises:
  • “I never once, not once hinted or indicated we’d cut council tax.” (36:04)
  • “Our average council tax rise is lower than the other parties running councils…” (36:48)
• Insists the ambition is to raise the tax threshold to £20,000, but acknowledges it can’t be done "on day one." (35:21-35:41)

9. Preparing for Power: Lessons from Donald Trump

(37:47–40:12)

• Details how observing Trump’s first administration taught him about the importance of preparation, pre-written legislation, and knowing the boundaries of power in government:
  • “Trump too, he knows 18 months out… exactly what powers he will have. He appoints a very tough… chief of staff…” (38:09-39:17)
  • “You can pre-write legislation… you need to work out… who can you hire, who can you sack…” (39:25-39:58)
• Danny Kruger, incoming adviser, is building these plans for Reform UK.

10. Farage’s Relationship with Trump and Big Tech

(40:12–43:27)

• Asserts he’s not “too close” to Trump, says:
  • “Friends don’t always agree.” (40:32)
• On Big Tech’s influence: acknowledges YouTube’s role in his rise, worries about social media harms to children, but points out “the hypocrisy” of UK government targeting some platforms but not others. (41:41–43:27)

11. ‘Provoking Putin’ and Realism on Ukraine

(43:27–47:55)

• Farage defends his 2014 warnings about Western policies antagonizing Russia:
  • “I actually uttered a sentence [then]: There will be a war in Ukraine. And I was right.” (44:23)
• Argues for a nuanced, historically informed realism about Russia, not simplistic “black and white” moralising.
• Current outlook:
  • “We have to make sure there are no further Russian gains, but that a peace settlement is coming and… will involve concessions.” (47:39-47:55)

12. Preparing for Possible Premiership & Reform’s Next Moves

(47:55–52:03)

• Sees the decline of the two-party system as opening a possible route for Reform:
  • “On May 8, the Conservative Party will cease to be a national political party.” (49:12)
  • “If we succeed on May 7… the next general election will be ours to lose.” (49:50)
• Acknowledges many new Reform MPs are ex-Tories but denies it's just the same party rebadged. (50:13-50:55)
• Discusses readiness and the physical demands of political life:
  • “Short nights, crazy busy days. But you know what? I love the buzz, but I’ve still got the energy. We’ll be okay.” (51:33–52:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On political comeback:
  “No, I genuinely didn’t know… I was sort of making my mind… I just come out of the jungle… I was also at that moment kind of taking off on TikTok…” (02:43–02:52)

• On Britain’s challenges:
  "No one dares admit it, it's in societal decline… What the hell? Where's the glue that used to bind us all together?" (04:38-05:30)

• On national identity:
  “Instinctively respond, I’m British, to be part of it. If you’re not responding, I’m British, you’re not part of it.” (13:16)

• On the ‘colonisation’ claim:
  "What [Ratcliffe] is saying is that large parts of our towns and cities have become unrecognisable as being English or British… I think he's right." (18:36-19:14)

• On defining Englishness and Britishness:
  “I’m not gonna start drawing ethnic lines… it’s about how you feel and… what your priorities are.” (16:06)

• On assimilation:
  “Some of these problems are going to be much bigger, long term problems that will demand deeper integration and not segregation in society. And no government… can force that.” (22:08–23:12)

• On Trump’s lessons:
  "Trump too, he knows 18 months out from the election exactly what powers he will have… They hit the ground running…" (38:09-39:17)

• On preparing for power:
  “What we can learn is get ready, be prepared. And secondly… you have to establish trust with the electorate they’re getting what they voted for.” (40:03–40:12)

• On allegations of racism:
  “Absolute rubbish. I never even came into contact with him… he’s a Marxist political activist.” (28:40-28:57)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:07–03:50 – Farage’s return; snap election decision
• 04:38–10:56 – Broken Britain and law & order
• 11:23–16:33 – National identity, “our own people”, Braverman on Englishness
• 16:33–20:23 – The “colonisation” row, immigration statistics
• 20:23–24:50 – Practical solutions, integration, and law enforcement
• 26:07–29:21 – Farage’s past: Enoch Powell and allegations
• 30:05–34:11 – Economic philosophy, Thatcherism and state intervention
• 34:32–37:47 – Tax, spending, and council tax
• 37:47–40:12 – Lessons from Trump, preparing Reform UK for power
• 40:12–43:27 – Trump, Big Tech, and social media’s impact
• 43:27–47:55 – Ukraine, Russia, Western policy, and moral complexity
• 47:55–52:03 – Preparing for a possible premiership & the decline of the two-party system

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Tone

The episode is forthright, combative at times, but also reflective. Farage is direct, unguarded, and occasionally indignant. Robinson’s questioning is persistent and at times adversarial, but focused on drawing out clearer definitions and pushing Farage to move beyond rhetoric into specifics.

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Summary

This in-depth episode offers a rare perspective on the personal convictions and political strategy of one of the UK’s most polarizing figures. Farage outlines his vision for a post-establishment Britain, grounding his appeal in populist values and searing criticism of mainstream politics. He is both challenged and given space to clarify his stances, shedding light on the beliefs that could shape the future of the country if Reform UK’s momentum continues. The conversation is essential listening for understanding the undercurrents of contemporary British politics.

Transcript

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[Nigel Farage]

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[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Hello and welcome to Political Thinking. The crisis the Prime Minister faced this week, the attempted coup was all down to the performance of one man. Nope, not Keir Starmer. Nigel Farage, my guest this week, whose new party, Reform uk, has been ahead in the opinion polls for months and which Labour fears could rob them of any chance of winning the Scottish and Welsh parliamentary elections and English local elections. There's even talk of a party with just eight MPs forming the next UK government. Unthinkable, absurd even, just a few months ago. Nigel Farage, welcome back to politics.

[Nigel Farage]

Thank you very much.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You smile because, what, it's two years since we had a conversation.

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah, yeah, we sat here two years ago, we talked about life and thoughts and where politics was going and in particular, you know, had Brexit delivered the things that I'd spent quarter of a century fighting for.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

And you called yourself. I don't if you remember an ex politician.

[Nigel Farage]

Yes, well, I was. I mean, I'd, you know, I'd gone off and I was doing GB news, which I was thoroughly enjoying. Getting a lot of invitations to speak in America, which was enjoyable. Quite lucrative. Not much pressure, my own boss, a bit more free time. I'd. When we last spoke, just turned 60, first couple of grandkids. I mean, you know, I was in semi retirement really.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Were you, though? Because I asked you whether you were going to run for Parliament and of course there are certain questions that politicians take a choice whether to answer or not.

[Nigel Farage]

I didn't know.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You really didn't?

[Nigel Farage]

No, I really didn't know.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You weren't just Having me old enough.

[Nigel Farage]

It was like, no, I genuinely didn't know.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Yeah, we're talking February 24th, so we're talking before that July election.

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah, I genuinely didn't know. I was sort of making my mind, I mean, I, I, when we spoke last time, I just come out of the jungle and whatever we think of, I'm a celebrity. Get me out of here. On ITV, you know, 11 million people a night watch reaches an audience beyond the normal political audience. I was also at that moment kind of taking off on TikTok with a young, sort of 13 to 24 year old type audience. And so I was thinking at that time, well, I've still got quite a connection with a number of people out there. I hummed and hard. And then Rishi called a snap election shortly after we'd met last time. And I thought, well, it's hopeless, you know.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

What, too soon?

[Nigel Farage]

Yes, they just, I haven't got time. And I mulled it for four or five days and I thought, do you know what? The hell with it, I'm gonna have a go. And it was a bit of a gamble, but I thought, well, if I succeed, I succeed.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Well, it's interesting you say it's a gamble because I once pointed out to you on air and you got rather cross about it. I said on the Today Crew, you've run seven times and you've lost seven times.

[Nigel Farage]

Well, yeah, but that's, I think I.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Said you were frit that Mrs. Thatcher.

[Nigel Farage]

I mean, that's nonsense because, you know, I've won two national elections in European elections. You know, most of the times I ran for parliament were for UKIP when frankly we ran for election rather than being a pressure group with no prospect of winning.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

But the reason I remind you of that is that you said on air to me, I'm sick to death of your condescending tone. Is there a bit of you I was wrong? No, but forget what you think about me, because this is not important what you think about me, but was there a bit of you? Is there a bit of you that when an opportunity like that came up thinking, I'm bloody going to show these people?

[Nigel Farage]

No, not really, no. There's no sort of.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

They look down their noses.

[Nigel Farage]

Do you know what? I actually couldn't give a damn what people think. I think you've known me long enough to know that I really don't care what people think. No, I went back, I thought, there's a chance here to establish a bridgehead in Parliament. If we can just establish a bridgehead. Because I thought to myself, actually, the country is in economic decline. No one dares admit it, it's in societal decline. Yet we deny, mainstream commentators deny, that crime's getting worse. And we're kind of in a cultural decline where people just look around them and think, what's happened to my town? What's happened to my city? How has this happened so quickly? What the hell? Where's the glue that used to bind us all together? So I kind of thought, there's a gap in the market here. If I can just make an inroad, maybe something remarkable will happen. And if you look, actually what's happened since that moment, it has been pretty remarkable.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

It has been remarkable. Nobody can deny that. Friend or foe, you put the party on an election war footing this week because of the crisis facing the Prime Minister. But I can't help noticing you've also said, and you've said it publicly and openly, we are, in your words, halfway towards being ready for government. So if there were an election, it's like way too early for you, isn't it? If you're serious about what.

[Nigel Farage]

What you chaps don't get is when you set up a private company, in the private sector, the first 10% of growth is agony. The first 25% of growth is pretty hard. You suddenly get to a point when it takes off because you've put the foundations in place and it takes off. And we've been through that process. We've been through the really, I mean, just one little example, raising money, you know, in the first days leading up to that general election and the months afterwards, raising money was really, really hard. But then once a few people start to give money, it makes it easier for other people to start giving money.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

If you haven't done that, if you're saying you're only halfway there. And Danny Kruger, former Conservative mp, who joined you and is now helping to write the manifesto I know and write policies, described you as a pirate ship with an ill disciplined crew. What is it? Is it discipline now? Is it not so?

[Nigel Farage]

I think one of the problems is. I think one of the problems is when you're, when you're a political entrepreneur, which is what I am, you know, by necessity, the early days of the party are me as a driving force. I'm the driving force. I'm saying, you do this, you do this, you do this. You know, it's my way or the highway. That's how it works. And it's a discipline. It's disciplined in the sense that I call the shots. It's ill disciplined in the sense that they're all quite individual, naturally quite rebellious people, many of them. Even since I gave that interview, I've appointed a leader in Scotland, a leader in Wales, a leading figure in London. Next week I will start to unveil the shadow cabinet. So the next 50% is going to happen very quickly.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

So we will get. When you say the shadow Cabinet, instead of just having spokespeople, spokesmen and women, we will have a shadow chancellor, someone you are saying to the public, this guy or gal will be disturbing your test. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nigel Farage]

And when you're doing this Today program, you know, you will have shadow Chancellor, shadow Home Secretary, etc, and when you're doing Miss A Day program and there's a big news story on a certain issue, your producers will say, right, that's the person for reform. We need to read.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Do they know yet?

[Nigel Farage]

They've got a reasonable idea. Although I'm quite good.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Is Robert Jenner going to be a good shadow?

[Nigel Farage]

Well, we'll have to see, won't we? You'll have to find out.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Go back to what you were saying about the state of the country. Yeah, I watched your rally. You did a big rally in Birmingham. You often do these huge rallies now. And you asked the, you asked the crowd a question. What's the question?

[Nigel Farage]

I'm often asking the question, is Britain broken? Can we succeed? I'm often asking them, is Britain broken?

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

It's interesting language, as you know, is controversial, not least because it was at the root of the row between Jenrick leaving the Tories and Kemi Badenoch, who says, look, there are all sorts of problems, but we do not, as conservatives, she said, say it's broken. What do you mean by it's broken?

[Nigel Farage]

It doesn't work. It doesn't work. And it's so broken and it's declining so quickly that anybody with a dispassionate view can see it. I mean, it's quite interesting. Just look at the net migration numbers. Oh, isn't it good? Net migration is coming down. You know why? There's an exodus. There is now an exodus. Those that are of a situation and a financial position that they're fortunate enough to have the choice are now fleeing the country in numbers. Actually, even bigger numbers than we saw back in the late 1970s when the brain drain was at its height. So you can see that Law and Order. I mean, I could just talk about London for a moment. It isn't just Mick Jagger's fiance that's been mugged outside A nightclub? I don't know. I don't know any family that has not been a victim of crime last year in London. Not a single family I know that has not had one of their family members be a victim of crime.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

I'm introducing you to what mine? I haven't. I live in central London.

[Nigel Farage]

How many kids you got living here?

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

I've got, well, three kids. Two are living full time in London.

[Nigel Farage]

You've had no crime? No. No phone stolen?

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Nope.

[Nigel Farage]

Well, you must be living like monks.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Oh, I know lots of people who do.

[Nigel Farage]

You must be living like.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

I don't wear a Rolex watch.

[Nigel Farage]

Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, your kids aren't going out clubbing, are they? No. I mean, honestly, the speed of deterioration is such. And it's broken because it can't be fixed until you have leadership in politics that recognizes the extent to which it is broken. So there is a fault line in politics here. Labour and Conservatives say Britain is not broken. We say it is. And it's really interesting. You talk about our rallies and our get togethers. I mean, by the end of the event, they're more like concerts than they are political meetings. People are up on their feet, they're cheering. And you know why? Having recognized that it's broken, they then can see what needs to be done to give solutions. So we are overwhelmingly an optimistic political movement, having accepted reality.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

That's interesting because often that language of being broken is described by people as negative. There's another phrase that I saw that you'd used on a. On a video of done. In the old days, we would have called it a party election broadcast, but it's a YouTube video. You strolling along with your dogs by the Essex coast. And the title of the video is the Good Days Will Return. Yeah, I don't want people to be thinking, watch that nostalgia, wishing for the good. When were the good days?

[Nigel Farage]

Well, do you know what, do you know what? The whole party is based on the simple slogan of family, community, country. And I think all of us feel that the values around those three things have deteriorated. Seriously. And once we start to believe in those things again, we'll feel better about ourselves.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Well, let's talk about country. Because in the video you say we've stopped loving the country we're part of. We've lost that basic sense of patriotic pride that you go on and say in this video is about putting our own people first.

[Nigel Farage]

Yes.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Obvious question. Who are our own people?

[Nigel Farage]

Do you put your family first or your next door neighbors first? I know what you do. I know what I do, I know what all the listeners to this podcast do. And I think there's an increasing feeling. Do you know, I knocked on a door, I knocked on the door. It's not quite true. He'd asked me to visit. I knocked on a Clacton constituent's door last Saturday. You know, chap getting on a bit, in his 70s, got terrible teeth problems. He can't get a dental appointment to save his life. Do you know what he said to me? He said, of course, if I come by Dinghy, it'd be different, wouldn't it? I get first class dental care on day one. He was angry, resentful. I've worked all my life, I've paid in, I fostered, I've done my bit for society, I. And yet I get nothing. And somebody else does that feeling about. And, you know, very interesting. The concept of fairness, I think is very deep in this country.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Yeah, it's powerful when it comes to immigration, it's powerful when it comes to the welfare state. Now, let's not have the argument now, but there are plenty of reasons people don't get the dental care, which has nothing to do with people coming over the boats, to do with the scale of the budget. But it's in population.

[Nigel Farage]

But if you come by boat, you will get dental care.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

I still want to come back to the question of who our own people are. Does it mean people born here? Does it mean people who live here? Does it mean people who speak English as a first language? What does our own people mean?

[Nigel Farage]

Instinctively respond, I'm British, you've got to instinctively respond, I'm British to be part of it. If you're not responding, I'm British, you're not part of it.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

But forgive me, and I don't want to be personal about this, but your first wife, I think I'm right in saying so. What? No, no, no, I asked you because I think it's relevant.

[Nigel Farage]

They wouldn't say they're British.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

There are lots of people would not say they were British. Let us take any family who has one partner who is not British, is a passport holder or maybe British, and the reason the question mark is are they our own people? Are their children our own people?

[Nigel Farage]

Well, it depends if you ask them the question, doesn't it? You ask a 10 year old kid, what are they? How do they feel? And it's about a sense of belonging, hence family, community, country, because you can't actually divide them out. They're all part of the same feeling. They're all Part of the same thing. And I think the concern and the worry is there are a lot of people here who have been brought up to actually loathe the country. I think what is happening in education at many levels is literally a sort of almost Marxist poisoning of the minds of young people about what we are, what we stand for, about our history.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

And, yeah, absolutely, forgive me, I'm going to push you on this because it's not some sort of liberal obsession to ask about who's British or who's English. It's an obsession with people in reform. Matt Goodwin, who you want to be your next Member of Parliament, was a guest on this program on political thinking. He says it takes more than a piece of paper to make somebody British. Suella Braverman, one of your new recruits, former Conservative Home Secretary. She says, I don't feel English. She says. She says for Englishness to mean something substantial, it must be rooted in ancestry, heritage and, yes, ethnicity. So that's not just residents or fl.

[Nigel Farage]

So that's interesting that what she's saying is this. British is a much bigger, all encompassing term than English. That's the distinction that she's drawing. But are you, and hence the reason that I answered your first question on this, it's about Britishness. Britishness is a much bigger, broader sense. Englishness, maybe it's a bit more narrowly defined, but I don't think it really matters.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Well, it sort of matters to people because Rishi Sunak was also on this podcast. Rishi Sunak was on this podcast after it was said of him that he couldn't be English because he was not my words, but the words of the person who said it, Brown and Hindu. He said, of course I'm English. But Matt Goodwin, who wants to be your next mp, suggests he might not be. He says people can identify as Brit and indeed English in terms of nationality, but many, and he said Rishi Sunak are not English in terms of ethnicity. So is your candidate right or wrong?

[Nigel Farage]

I do. Listen, I'm not gonna start drawing ethnic lines on what being English is. Otherwise we'd be back to DNA tests of whether you're Anglo Saxon. I'm not going down that road. It's about how you feel and it's about what your priorities are. That's what I'd say. What are your priorities? What is the thing that you really believe you're part of? And that I think is very, very important. And the reason I think nationality, nationality is an extension of being part of a family.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

The reason it matters is because what it might lead you to do in government, and I want to come to that in a second, but you're speaking to me now, hours after you have endorsed the comments of Sir Jim Ratcliffe. Oh, yeah, former, sorry, current boss of my football club, the owner, part owner of Manchester United. Also very big figure in our economy in terms of what he owns of the chemical industries, not just here, but right across Europe. Now, I don't want to get hooked on language, but let's remind people what he said. He says the UK has been colonized.

[Nigel Farage]

Let's take one word out. I tell you what we'll do.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Do you take it out because you don't agree with it?

[Nigel Farage]

I tell you what we do. Let's just come back to that word.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Okay?

[Nigel Farage]

What did he say? He said the population has risen by 12 million because of immigration fact since. Since 2000. He said 2020. That was a mistake. But since. Since it wasn't a fact, it was a mistake. But, but, but the points, that. The point's a good one. The population's risen by 12 million since the year 2000.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Yeah, if you give or take 20 years. But point taken. It's. It's increased.

[Nigel Farage]

Come on. I mean, it's increased. Yeah, let's just be sensible. It's increased by 12 million. 85% plus of that is directly down to immigration. It is a massive population rise. It has devalued the life of almost everybody in the country. Unless you're very rich, you know, it's meant worse roads, higher rents, less access to public services. That's one thing he said factually, entirely, utterly cracked.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Well, I don't want to get into an argument about the pros and cons of immigration.

[Nigel Farage]

No, no, no, no, no, no. But people should say, hang on, hang on.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

He staffed the health service, treated your mum and dad bearing a cow as well.

[Nigel Farage]

One in six now on universal credit have come from overseas.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

There's plenty of good things. Immigrants.

[Nigel Farage]

His numbers were factually correct. 9 million working age people on benefits. Correct. Although some of them are in work benefits. Just to clarify the position. So all of that's right. And then he said, we've been colonized by immigrants. Now, the word colonised is the controversial bit, which is why he's pulled back a bit from it today.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Actually.

[Nigel Farage]

If you took the sort of dictionary definition of colonisation, I would say that if you go to parts of East London, say, just a few miles from where we are now, and you see road signs, you see bus stops, you see underground stations with foreign languages, next to them. You think, what's going on here? You look at the last census, there's a million living in Britain don't speak English. There's 4 million don't speak very good English. I mean, what he's saying is that large parts of our towns and cities have become unrecognisable as being English or British or whatever interpretation we choose to draw. I think he's right.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

And then move on to the policy. Now, the words controversial. Let me just ask you, the reason the word is controversial is because it means something. And colonize means to establish power over. To establish control over.

[Nigel Farage]

That's right.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

It doesn't mean there's an awful lot of them about. It doesn't mean they speak their own language. Because I could make the same point about Welsh speaking parts of Wales. It means to establish power. It's an assertion of power. That's simply not true, is it? And it's arguably offensive.

[Nigel Farage]

There are communities in our country who think we should adapt to their way of life rather than us adapting to them adapting to our way of life. That is happening. That is going on. We know it. I hope and pray it doesn't grow from where it is now. Look, if we take the word colonize out, what Ratcliffe said is accurate and right and the reaction to it has been fascinating. There's a Labour government going, oh my goodness me, this is awful. You can't say that. We're diverse and tolerant. What Jim is saying is that mass migration has done us harm and made us poorer. And I think he's absolutely right.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Okay, then the question is, what do you do about it? Because one of the arguments about you is friends and foes. A brilliant communicator, Nigel Farage, then they go, what's he actually believe in doing? This is the stuff of talk shows, this is the stuff of viral videos, this is the stuff of social media posts. Well, fine, okay, let's pretend for a moment you're right and there'll be plenty of people listening who say, well, the facts weren't quite right. Your facts about English language are not quite right, by the way.

[Nigel Farage]

I went bought them. I tell you what, they're pretty good. They're pretty good.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

They make it look worse than it is. But anyway, let's not bog down on that because what's interesting, given that you are potentially on the brink of power, is what you would actually do. So if you say there are large parts of Britain like this, simply curbing immigration doesn't deal with that, to put it crudely, the People you're worried about are here, they are British. What do you do about it?

[Nigel Farage]

No, no, you're absolutely right. So I would say this to you. Number one, I'm quite good at talk shows. Number two, I'm quite good at social media. Number three, I've attracted a big following out there. So you know, fine people can write me off like that. That's what I do. First answer is you don't make a bad problem worse by continuing with irresponsible policies. That's pretty obvious. The second point is on the illegal point, which is you leave yourself free. I mean, you know, just this week we've had, you know, the conviction of somebody raping a 12 year old girl in Warwickshire. Afghan, no shock there. The numbers with Afghani sexual assaults are horrifying. These men are coming from a culture that is entirely different to ours. And the Prime Minister says, I asked.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You though, what do you do? Because the easy thing is, and the.

[Nigel Farage]

Prime Minister says, you're like the Irishman.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Say I wouldn't have started here.

[Nigel Farage]

And the fact that, hang on, what.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Do you do about the people who are here?

[Nigel Farage]

Doctor, I get the joke, I get the joke, but let me just finish. The PM says he'll be deported. He won't. He won't. He'll serve a short prison sentence and still live here. So you deport people who've come here illegally. You actually say nobody from Afghanistan, no young male from Afghanistan will be given refugee status. The risks are too high. Now the bigger point, the bigger point about what is here and what is established and what we do with it. I believe we can turn around the economy, I believe we can turn around law and order. I think leadership can do that. Some of these problems are going to be much bigger, long term problems that will demand, demand deeper integration and not segregation in society. And no government, no government can force that. No government can force that. The government can't force that. And some of these, I think you.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Said, well, in Denmark, for example, they have a policy, you can make it tougher. Don't they have what they call anti parallel society or rather Swedish? They do so just to explain to people they actually it's pretty radical policy. The state can demolish apartment blocks in areas where at least half of the residents have a quote, non western background. Yeah, that's radical.

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah, I don't think that's going to work in this country. I don't think we put up with that.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

See, Jim Radcliffe asked a question about you. He said, is he brave?

[Nigel Farage]

Oh, I'm Brave. No, no, I'm brave, all right, But I'm also sensible. You know, you know, we'll give one brave policy. Courage comes with. You have to make sure the law is enforced equally for everybody. And that means you stop hate preaching. That means you ban organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood who are driving the divides in our big cities as deep as they can. They've infiltrated our police forces, they've infiltrated our parts of our civil service, they've infiltrated parts of our education system. There are forces at work out there doing all they can to drive our communities apart. We have to take on and fight those people.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

This will not mean that parts of East London you've described and you've talked about Lancashire towns or Luton or Leicester which have very high Asian populations, will suddenly not have those populations.

[Nigel Farage]

They will. No, they won't be. They will still be. Of course they will. And they won't be talking like cockneys in six months time. And I fully accept that.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

So that's why I put to you.

[Nigel Farage]

Talk this, but no, but if you would make sure the law is enforced equally. You make sure there are not people in mosques saying things that are wholly unacceptable. All right? You drive out the factors that seek to divide even further. You then start to begin a process of deeper assimilation.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

There's a different problem, isn't there? Which is you are implying, and certainly Matt Goodwin when he says you may not be English and Cyril Abrahman, but maybe Rishi Sunak's not really English. You, if you even use the language of colonizing, that millions of your fellow citizens are not really citizens. They're not really one of us. They're not really British.

[Nigel Farage]

I think I've made really clear in this chat with you that it's about how you feel. It's about how you feel. And I feel very strongly about that. And I think a really interesting fact after we spoke last time two years ago on this podcast, fought the election at short notice. Do you know we got more votes, more voters for reform from the Bame community than the Liberal Democrats got. All right, so there are lots of people here from all sorts of ethnicities. Oh, and by the way, religions who will support me, support the party who understand what I'm saying about unity and getting together.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Well, let me briefly ask you about one other thing before we move on to a different subject. Talk about the economy. When I've interviewed you over the years, you've always been admirably, I think, open that you think immigration is bad for our society regardless of Whether it's good for the economy.

[Nigel Farage]

We had this debate, you and I had this debate in 2014.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

And I remember it vividly on a documentary.

[Nigel Farage]

Vividly.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

And you also said to me then, and you've said it on other times, that you admired Enoch Powell. You thought he'd made some mistakes in the language he'd used. But he's the most controversial figure on this, which is why I ask you now, and you did so at school at Dulwich College.

[Nigel Farage]

It's nearly 60 years ago. Sure, it's pretty irrelevant.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Well, is it? Yeah, because I wanted to ask you why you admired him.

[Nigel Farage]

We could talk about Gladstone if you like. Or it's just look, you know, going back to things that happened half a set were nearly 60 years ago in his case is not particularly relevant.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Well, it may be relevant to people watching and listening because they may think how interesting. Either he thinks, you know, pounds.

[Nigel Farage]

Right.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

And that's a good thing.

[Nigel Farage]

It's nearly 60 years ago. You know, I think a lot of what Churchill said was very good too. I mean, so What?

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Okay, almost 60 years ago as well, of the allegations, you know, you faced. I just want to, I don't want to waste your time, I don't want to waste the listeners time going over it all all over again. But I do want clarity for people, you know that people say that you said to Jewish students at school Hitler was right and gassed them. I am not clear whether you are saying was banter. It was a long time ago and I'm sorry if you were.

[Nigel Farage]

What I'm saying is that only one person said that. Only one person said that alleged that. I mean, yeah, I don't remember it. But you know what? Goodness knows at 13 what people said to each other at school. My only crime, real crime from that period is that I did join the Conservative Party in 1978. All right. And I have never also said at.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

The time your teachers at the time you're an admirer of Enoch Power. Yeah, well, I control controversial.

[Nigel Farage]

Well, of course that's because, you know, when I'm 18 years old, he comes to the school and speaks and you meet him. And I admired other people that I met at the time as well. And Nick, I tell you what, let.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Me do one other allegation, then we'll move on.

[Nigel Farage]

And I'll tell you what, there is absolutely no way this conversation would happen about anybody else in politics other than me. And it's all because of course we're upset in the apple cart. We're challenging the establishment. And I suspect what you've got here is merely the beginning of what's gonna come over the course of the next year or two.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Sure. To be fair, Jeremy Corbyn felt the same thing. Anybody who's trying to change the conventional wisdom, and you are, that's right. Gets challenged. I'm gonna put one other to you and then we're gonna talk about a different subject. You, it was alleged, had taunted a 9 year old British Nigerian boy when you were 17, not when you were 30. Absolute rubbish with that's the way back to Africa.

[Nigel Farage]

Absolute rubbish. Absolute rubbish. I'd never even come into contact with him. You know, that school, that school miles apart. I never even have met him. And by the way, he's a left wing political activist. He's a Marxist political activist. And in the case of the other person you quote, he's somebody very active with the Rejoin the EU campaign.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

There were 26 school friends who you.

[Nigel Farage]

See and what you see is a political. I had a Jewish friend from school texting me this morning, you know, so there's a lot of nonsense.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Okay, I'm still not clear whether you're basically saying I was a pretty nasty kid at times, but it's 60 years ago.

[Nigel Farage]

I, I, I deny the individual things said by both those two people. Was there rough and was there rough and tumble in the late 1970s at schools? Of course there was. I bet there was with numerous.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Interesting definition of rough and tumble.

[Nigel Farage]

I bet there was with numerous. Yeah.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

But it was largely with Manchester City fans rather than with jealous.

[Nigel Farage]

Well, I bet there's any part of it.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Yeah, let's, let's move on.

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[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

The other big subject you will have to have answers about. And again, you've been open with people. You've got a lot of work to do on. This is the economy.

[Nigel Farage]

Yes.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

I want to begin with what you really think, what's in there, not the detailed policy. Now you were just for people who don't know the son of a Stockbroker. You went in the City yourself.

[Nigel Farage]

Is that a crime?

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You know, I was going to ask you about what it was about for you. You seem to fall in love as a young man. You leave school at 16, you go and work as a commodities trader. Why did you fall in love with the City of London in the 80s? What was it about?

[Nigel Farage]

Buzz, buzz. Energy, ambition, possibility, the ability to make money, the lifestyle that could go with that.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You said in your autobiography that your dad took you for dozens of oysters and drinking champagne.

[Nigel Farage]

Yes, absolutely. It was wonderful. I couldn't wait. You know, my contemporaries all went off to university. Well, good luck to them. I had a lot more fun than them, I think. And, you know. And actually. And actually was able to make, you know, making good money very young. That didn't last. But all the while it did last. It was great fun.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

But we're of a similar age and for people who are. That's the era of the Harry Enfield character. You remember doing this in front of the camera. Loads of money.

[Nigel Farage]

I do remember. And you remember those, your values. And you remember the public sector. Debt repayment in 1988. Budget. We weren't borrowing money, we were paying off the national debt. Wealth creation. We had a rise during that period of living standards unlike anything ever seen before. It didn't matter what class you were, it didn't matter whether you were Jewish. And all the prejudices that had gone on in government and society before. It was an incredible period of social mobility. Now, there were some that paid the price. The South Yorkshire coalfields, places like that, did pay one hell of a price in the early 80s for what came later. But do I think success is good? Do I think wealth creation is good? Do I think high living standards are good? Yep. And that gets the absolute heart of it.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

For those who don't remember, the 1988 was a big Nigel Lawson budget. It was Margaret Thatcher's chancellor. He slashed the top rate of tax. He did slash tax. So there we are, I've got you straight.

[Nigel Farage]

And there was no debt.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Yep. Nigel Farage is a Thatcherite.

[Nigel Farage]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Interesting.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Because now, these days, Mr. Farage, you seem like Jeremy Corbyn. You want to nationalize British steel.

[Nigel Farage]

I was born.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

That's half the water industry.

[Nigel Farage]

Different. This is where this becomes nonsense. We talk about the 1960s or 70s and now we're on the 80s. Right. Different sets of circumstances at different times in history demand different thinking and different solutions. There was a massive problem of excessive trade, union power, restrictive practices by the way, not just the unions, but the old City of London in all sorts of ways. We'd become ossified and what Thatcher did was to blow it all up and launch a free market revolution. That worked.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

However, deal with the second half, which he's saying you're now in favour of. Re National British.

[Nigel Farage]

However. However, in those days, China didn't exist as it is now. It was a very insular, non threatening country. Russia, we were coming towards the end of the Cold War. It was weak, didn't pose any particular threat. The world was a very different place. We're now living in a much more difficult world, a much more dangerous world in many ways. And so I think the emphasis now is not so much on changing the trade union relationship with bosses, et cetera. I think there's a new national interest imperative that says we have to produce our own food, produce our own energy and, yes, we must go on being a steel maker. And Richard Tyson and I intervened. We went to the last primary steel producer in the country in scunthorpe. It led 48 hours later to a Saturday sitting of Parliament, which wouldn't have happened unless we'd intervened. I now believe the Labour Party would.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Say they were having those conversations.

[Nigel Farage]

They would have done nothing. And you know it and I know it. But otherwise. Otherwise they wouldn't bother to wait till a Saturday to get us back to Parliament. So I think, I think that this idea that we put national interests first, national self reliance, are issues that matter now in a way they couldn't have done back then.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

But the reason people worry about it, to put it crudely, is they think you're making it up as you go along because you run for the general election promising £90 billion of tax cuts. You made Jeremy Corbyn look modest with your promises of tax cuts. You come after the election, say, no, we can't afford any of that. We're not going to do any of those. You now say you want to spend tens of billions. Have you seen the growth nationalising?

[Nigel Farage]

Have you seen the growth figures today?

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Not but 1%. Yeah.

[Nigel Farage]

So we now know that in the last six months the UK economy has grown by 0.1% and actually GDP per capita has fallen again 2/4 in a row. So the economic circumstances now are very different to before. What we are very clear on is we will cut welfare spending. We've made it very, very clear.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

And cut taxes.

[Nigel Farage]

The media haven't always listened. We will cut taxes. The big ambition. The big ambition. And you know, we've got to accept we can't do this on day one. The big ambition is to get the threshold at which people start paying tax, right up to £20,000 a year.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You see, we don't have to look at the crystal ball, do we? Can read the book. Reform now runs councils.

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Derbyshire 5% increase in council tax. Northamptonshire, 5% increase in council tax. West Northamptonshire, 5 percent increase in council tax. Leicestershire, 5%. What do you tell me?

[Nigel Farage]

Lincolnshire, 9%.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Keeps going, doesn't it?

[Nigel Farage]

No, no, no, no, Sorry.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Whenever you're asked, you go, we never said we cut your taxes. Everybody thought that we did and you brought them up.

[Nigel Farage]

I never said it once. I was ABS and I, by the way, I toured the country relentlessly ahead of May 1st last year, which, by the way, was our breakthrough. That was the reason we hit the lead in the polls, was the win on May 1st in those council elections.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Dear Youssef said, a reckoning is coming.

[Nigel Farage]

I never once.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

He said, we're gonna have an Elon Musk style program to slash waste and corruption. And you put people's taxes up.

[Nigel Farage]

I never once, not once hinted or indicated we'd cut council tax. And I made it perfectly clear. The reason for that was these councils were on the edge of bankruptcy.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

But you did say slash spending, which people, I assume, thought it would do something for them.

[Nigel Farage]

£300 million of identified savings already across our councils. And by the way, on the council tax rises, our average council tax rise is lower than the other parties running councils across the rest of the country. And in most cases, there is an exception in Worcestershire, where we're not in majority control anyway. But in most cases, our increases are lower than the rate of inflation.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

That 5%, by the way, is the legal maximum. Unless you get.

[Nigel Farage]

In most cases. In most cases, yeah. Your research has produced you the worst cases. In many cases. In many cases, we're well below inflation. The bigger question, and by the way, are we running these councils competently? I think in several cases we're doing very, very well.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Let's get you back to discuss that in more detail. The bigger question, I think, is what you're learning about what you might or might not be able to do.

[Nigel Farage]

That's a good point.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

If you get into.

[Nigel Farage]

That's a very good point.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

The Zau Yousef language was to mirror Elon Musk. So Musk had a department of government efficiency. Doge, you have a department of local government efficiency saying letters almost trump. You must be looking at him second term. You know him well. What's he getting right in terms of.

[Nigel Farage]

How to turn government round, what he's getting. Right, what are you learning from him?

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

I mean, rather than as a commentator on American affairs.

[Nigel Farage]

Well, let's talk process for a moment. So Trump won, he wins the election. And don't forget, I'm the first foreign person to go and visit him after the election. He's sitting in an armchair, he's kind of shell shocked. He hadn't expected to win. There isn't really a plan for government. He goes in and they say, don't worry, Mr. Trump, we got all the right people for you. And he's surrounded by his enemies from day one. The whole thing leaks like a sieve and it's very difficult to run it efficiently. And so all you ever read is chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos. Trump too, he knows 18 months out from the election exactly what powers he will have. He appoints a very tough sort of chief of staff in Susie Wiles. They interview, interview, interview, they've got 3,000 appointments to make, they've got legislation pre written, they hit the ground running and you can agree with what he does, disagree with what he does, but he's actually delivered on the border, for example.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

But what can you learn from that? Because you've got a parliamentary system, not a presidential system. You can't just issue executive decrees, even if you. No, you can, but you can.

[Nigel Farage]

No, but you can pre write legislation. You can get things test marketed, test bedded to see they're practically right. You equally need to work out as a government, what, what powers of patronage do you have? Who can you hire, who can you sack? What are you actually in control of? I don't yet know the answer to those questions. Danny Krueger came across to us from the Conservatives as a political thinker, somebody who of course has been in and out of government and number 10 for many, many years and his job is to get us ready for that. So first thing we can learn is get ready, be prepared.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

So when you said you were halfway the other day, and you've said earlier, you're a bit more than halfway.

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Well, is that the work you've still got to do?

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And secondly, what we can learn is you have to establish trust with the electorate. They're getting what they voted for.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Well, one reason they might not trust you is they think you're too close to Donald Trump.

[Nigel Farage]

Well, that's nonsense.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

I mean, I'm quoting what they say in a polls, you know, they say, which is why you're constantly trying to pretend you're not Close to him at the moment.

[Nigel Farage]

I never, ever pretend to be what I am.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You've taken a whole series of opportunities recently to say, oh, Donald Trump, you know, we don't used to post about it.

[Nigel Farage]

Yes.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

What I've said.

[Nigel Farage]

No, hang on. What I've said is that friends don't always agree.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Yeah. Well, let's give me. Let's take an example. Big tech.

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Run by American companies. What I do really just is. Yeah, yeah. What have you said is one of your first priorities at a time? People are worried about what X and Instagram and WhatsApp and Facebook and others are doing. What does Nigel Farrell say? You go to America, you sit in front of Congress and say, lobby our government. Put pressure on our government to back off. So you've caved in front of. Not in front of Donald Trump already, haven't you?

[Nigel Farage]

I thought when the. When the. The author, the writer, the creator of Father Ted, which, by the way, I find very funny. When the. When you know, the creator of that comedy show, Graham. Graham Lennon, who's an Irish citizen with an Irish passport, who now lives in Phoenix, Arizona, was arrested at Heathrow Airport. A foreign citizen for what was said on foreign soil, is arrested at Heathrow airport for things that he said on X by five people, police officers with guns. And by coincidence, literally coincidence, I was before the House Judiciary Committee in the Senate the next day. I don't think it was wrong or unpatriotic to be critical of what's happening.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Sure. No, the test was not what you think about Graham Lennon. And the test is, is whether in office, if Nigel Farage ever becomes prime minister, you'll have a fight with American tech firms. Well, many people think are destroying the childhoods of people in this country, are destroying what you say, the bonds of family and community and country. And are you willing to fight or are you willing to say, my friends, you say that.

[Nigel Farage]

Hang on. We'd never have had Brexit without YouTube. I wouldn't have existed without YouTube. Nobody would have known who Nigel Farage is without YouTube. It was because YouTube came along that my speeches in the European Parliament started to reach enormous audiences. And then the Today program started inviting me on because of the level of public attention that I was getting. So, actually, social media has been quite an important part of. You can call it the populist revolt or whatever it is now. Am I worried about some of the imagery that kids can access on social media?

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Yes.

[Nigel Farage]

But the hypocrisy of this is extraordinary. But you know what?

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

The Americans will Do. They're defending their companies, that's what they're paid for. That's why they're in office. They'll say, you do that, we'll put sanctions on you. Do that, we'll increase your tax.

[Nigel Farage]

Is being attacked by this government, when actually X is a minute percentage of the problem of nude images and all the rest of it. Snapchat and the others, by the way, are far, far worse. Are there problems? Yes. Am I concerned about the under 16s accessing some of this stuff? Of course I am.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Let me ask you about one other thing that you and I have talked about a lot and deliberately I'm going to raise it with you again. During the general election, the interview we did for Panorama provoked quite a lot of controversy because I asked you about Putin and you said we provoked the war and you echoed what you'd said 10 years before. No, the reason I want to ask you about it is this. Before you, you look all weird.

[Nigel Farage]

It's such hard work with you people, it really is.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You had said in the European Parliament 2014, if you poke the Russian bear with a stick, don't be surprised. But that's actually the question I want to ask you. It's not the question you think I could ask you. The question I want to ask is, do you actually think now you were proved right, you were the realist, that in fact, people should have listened to you when you said, just remind people. What it was was that if Ukraine was given EU membership, NATO membership, or even the prospect of it, that Putin would react.

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah, I did say that. And I also said in 2014, openly in the European Parliament, I actually uttered a sentence, there will be a war in Ukraine. And I was right. And it's really odd to get so much abuse of being right. And it's really odd because you put an historical context on something with the nuance that Putin, a bad person, would use it as a cause, as belli with his own people, that suddenly for a decade you get branded as being a Putin supporter.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

I was thinking about it. Let me put this to you, because I'd be interested in your response. Literally, I was just trying to think. I'm going to ask Nigel Faris this again. The reason I think people object to it, other than critics who simply want to leap on you and say, look, you're a mate of Putin's, right? Is this morality? They say, what sort of morality is it to say to Ukraine, which I think by land mass is the largest country in Europe, you shouldn't become more Democratic. You shouldn't become more European in outlook, you shouldn't become more Western, because if you do, an appalling regime on your border will invade you. That's not morality, is it?

[Nigel Farage]

Well, that's the irony of the whole thing, that a democratically elected president of Ukraine was brought down by a street.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Coup back in 2040.

[Nigel Farage]

Yes. So there's a, you know, talk about morality. Actually. Democracy was destroyed by those that wanted to drag Ukraine westward rather than eastward. And you know what, in all of these things, picking goodies and baddies, you know, is a very difficult and dangerous game to play.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

So in that sense is a mistake, you think, to say Zelenskyy's the democrat. Zelenskyy is, I think.

[Nigel Farage]

I mean, he's been elected and he's there. I'm talking about poroshenko back in 14. Do you know what the problem is here? And you must think this with the job that you do. It is actually difficult to put a balanced, slightly nuanced argument based on knowledge and fact up against emotion. And it's black or white. And I do believe you do realize.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

There are people shouting at their radio and television. So you do this every day.

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah, but of course, they wouldn't understand what you do it on. Immigration, they wouldn't understand Europe.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You do it on every subject in the sun.

[Nigel Farage]

They wouldn't understand. Unlike most other politicians, I'm actually quite well read. I've got a broad sense of history and economics, far more, frankly, being honest than most of our leaders over the other parties over the course of the last few years. And I am able to take a long term view. I think my understanding of Russian psychology was actually much deeper than any of the others. We are where we are. You know, there is no doubt that the biggest disappointment of this is that Trump really believed he'd get Putin to the table and Putin would behave rationally. He hasn't.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Is the realistic thing. Now, if the realistic thing was to warn off the possibility of war, to say that territory's never coming back.

[Nigel Farage]

I think the realistic thing to say is that we have to make sure there are no further Russian gains, but that a peace settlement is coming and the peace settlement will involve concessions. And I don't see any way around that.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

So let's end the conversation away where we began, which is the possibility, the possibility of you becoming our next prime minister, which, as I said in the introduction, was regarded as risible, which I imagine you have to take seriously. So if you're taking it seriously, what are you doing differently now, you describe, for example, that you read a lot.

[Nigel Farage]

Yeah.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

What are you doing to prepare?

[Nigel Farage]

Well, the reason it's even a possibility is because to go back to my city days, the markets moved. There is a different market out there now. People are thinking differently. We're actually watching the two party system that has dominated British politics since, well, 1924. Basically, we're witnessing the end of that system. And I think, to be fair, I think reform has actually done that and provoked that. And we're now beginning to see an equal and opposite attraction on the other side with some of the left wing parties that are coming. Perhaps as a direct consequence of that. I. I think May 7 this year is of much bigger significance than most people even dare to think.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

For those who haven't got it in their diary, the Scottish parliamentary elections, the Welsh parliamentary elections and lots of English.

[Nigel Farage]

Councillors, all 32 London boroughs, thousands of elections all over the country. 30 big elections cancelled in some cases for the second year in a row. But I'm going to the High Court next week to challenge this in a judicial review. We'll see how we get on. But even with the cancellations, it's a massive set of elections. If my hunch is right, then on May 8, the Conservative Party will cease to be a national political party. On May 8, the Labour Party will effectively have been taken out of Wales South Wales, their historic heartland in so many ways. And British politics would have been a very different place. If we succeed on May 7, then I think the next general election will be ours to lose. And so my focus between now and then, I won't be in London very much. I'll be touring the country, doing the rallies, doing what I do.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

And alongside you will be when you say the Tory Party is dead. Boris Johnson's Conservative Vice chair, David Cameron's speech to writer Liz Truss's Home secretary. You did a family photo of the reform UK parliamentary party. You're all ex Tories. No, because we're not all ex Tories.

[Nigel Farage]

I mean every single one, Zia Youssef.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

No parliamentary party has had eight MPs. Every single one was a Conservative. Including you.

[Nigel Farage]

Well, that's hardly surprising. It's hardly surprising.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

It's hardly the end of the Tory Party, is it? It's just a different version of the Tory Party.

[Nigel Farage]

Well, if that's what it is, if we've replaced the old fuddy duddy existing Conservative party with a new force on the centre that's got a bit more energy, a bit more enthusiasm, a bit.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

More fire, what happens that labour defect, do you get promising?

[Nigel Farage]

There are going to be several.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

You did say several weeks ago it was going to happen this week.

[Nigel Farage]

I haven't got a magic wand. Things that always happen immediately, but it will happen.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

And the question I'll ask you is how you're preparing. Have you. And you describe yourself as having lived a life. You've had some health challenges, you and.

[Nigel Farage]

I. I have, yeah.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Cancer. And you had a terrible plane crash and I had a car crash. And you like to fag and you like some boot. Have you had to change the way Nigel Farage lives to be ready for this?

[Nigel Farage]

The trouble is. The trouble is we get older. We get older and we have to adapt a bit. And have I found the last few months tough? Yeah, I have. Very tough. Very tough indeed. Yeah. Short nights, crazy busy days. But you know what? I love the buzz, but I've still got the energy. We'll be okay.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Nigel Farage, thank you for joining on Political Thinking. Love him or loathe him? If you had any doubt that Nigel Farage is serious about wanting to win the next election, about wanting to be our next prime minister, just think back to what he tried to do in that interview. Tried to dodge an argument about whether Rishi Sunak is really English, even though that argument about what it is to be English is raging in his own ranks. Tried to distance himself from Donald Trump and the suggestion that he's too close to Vladimir Putin. Tried to insist that he never. Deary me no. Promised to cut taxes when it came to local government and therefore hasn't let people down. This is a man determined to prove that he's no longer just a talk show host and a social media influencer. He is trying to say to you he's a serious politician. Thanks for listening to Political Thinking. And incidentally, if you want a full list of the candidates running in the Manchester, Gorton and Denton constituency by election, you can find those on the BBC website. The producers were Daniel Kramer and Flora Murray. The editor, Giles Edwards. Please do subscribe to Political Thinking on BBC Sounds. It means each episode will drop into your feed automatically and have a look at our back catalogue. I've recorded hundreds of these interviews with a huge range of voices over the last eight years. And don't forget to check out my colleague Amal Rajan's podcast, Radical. This week, AMOL sits down with tech entrepreneurs Josephine Phillips, who's the founder of Sojo, a company born out of Josephine's determination to tackle the environmental cost of fast fashion and over consumption. She argues we need to be more intentional, more mindful about what we buy. From BBC Radio 4 Wolf Valley. Four people have died over the last five years, all within the same organization.

[Nigel Farage]

Hello to they're in three different countries. No fault accidents seen individually, but I'm.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

Going to open 1, 2, 3. Listen to wolf valley first on BBC sounds.

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If there was a big red button that would just demolish the Internet, I would smash that button with my forehead.

[Tech Podcast Narrator]

From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

[Political Thinking Host (possibly Nick Robinson)]

This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.

[Tech Podcast Narrator]

It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday.

[Tech Podcast Host]

Life, and all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.

[Tech Podcast Narrator]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.