← Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
The Friedrich Merz One
00:34:03
The German chancellor speaks candidly about Trump, war in Europe, and post-Brexit Britain.
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BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Political Thinking. I'm here in the German Embassy in London to interview Germany's new leader, Friedrich Metz, who took power just 10 weeks ago. It is already clear that he is unlike any leader of Germany since the war. He is a man who wants his country to be powerful, not just economically, but militarily, because he believes that Germany, that Europe, needs to stand up to Vladimir Putin and prepare for the possibility of independence from the United States. As American politicians become less and less patient with the Europeans because they don't pay enough for their own defence, he came to London to sign a friendship treaty between Britain and Germany, the first of its sort. Its focus, the shared challenges, not just defence, but a stuttering economy and the problem of uncontrolled mass migration. Chancellor Mertz, thank you so much for talking to us. You, in many ways, are a leader like no other of your country because you are saying openly you want Germany once again to be strong militarily. Why so?
- [01:56]
C
Well, first of all, let me say that I'm really honored to be here today because this is an historic day for Britain and for Germany to sign this agreement and for our domestic policy. It's important that we are becoming stronger militarily than we were in the past and that we are becoming stronger economically as we were in the past. So this is the mission of our government.
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A
Your Defence Minister, Boris Pistorius, said to his own people, we must be ready for war by 2029. Be clear about that, if you could. Does he mean that Germany, that Europe needs to be ready for a wider war beyond Ukraine?
- [02:43]
C
Well, we have to be able to defend ourselves, which is actually not the case. We are not strong enough. Our army is not strong enough. So that's the reason why we are spending a lot of money, more than ever before after the Cold World War, so that we are spending a lot of money which we have to borrow. We changed our constitution and we are seeing a big threat, and the threat is Russia and. And this threat is not only on Ukraine it's on our peace, on our freedom, on the political order of Europe. And that's the reason why we are doing that.
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A
To be clear, you think there's a wider and a longer term threat?
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C
It's a wider and a longer term. Far beyond Ukraine. Yes.
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A
Now, you know Russia well. Perhaps your adult life has been defined by it. You were born just a few months after Germany joined NATO, right. Same year you did national service at the height of the Cold War. Does your view of Russia in many ways shape your entire approach to the world?
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C
Well, I think our view on Russia has fundamentally changed over the last decade. We all hope that after the Cold War, we were able to form a new political order in Europe. And we had agreements on that. The two plus four agreement with former Soviet Union, the Paris Carta. We had so many points of good relation with Russia. Business went pretty well. Oil and gas was one of the basics of our economy. So this has fundamentally changed. The latest with 2022, you could say also since 2014, when, when this terrible war began, when the invasion of Crimea, when the invasion of Crimea and parts of Ukraine began and the open war began on February 24 in 2022, now we are faced with a complete different world. And this world has been changed by Russia, mostly.
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A
Now Germany has had a learning process. You, in a sense, have had to abandon your dependence on Russian gas to abandon the idea that better trading will lead possibly to peace. Is President Trump on the same journey now, learning that you can't trust Vladimir Putin?
- [05:10]
C
Well, you might know that President Trump and myself, we are in good speaking terms. We are trying to coordinate our efforts here on the American side, me in person, on the European and on the German side, we are trying to act together and to try to bring this terrible war to an end. And I fully trust that President Trump is really willing to put this war to an end. We are talking about measures, we are talking about weapons, we are talking about actions. And yes, I think that President Trump is on the same page. We are trying to bring this war to an end.
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A
Donald Trump told the BBC just this week, I'm not done with him, with Putin, but I'm disappointed in him. Do you think he should be done with him? I mean, is it over this idea.
- [05:57]
C
That you can talk to the Russians at least? I'm happy to see that he is, in the meantime convinced that this is not over within a couple of days and that he is now disappointed, as he says, is a good sign that he is now moving on and taking actions, at least sanctions and the delivery of weapons. We have an agreement on new weapons for Ukraine. He is still delivering ammunition to Ukraine, so I very much hope that he will stick to that.
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A
This treaty that you're signing with the Prime Minister, the first ever, has defence at its heart. And one of the practical things that you're doing is developing new long range missiles, missiles with a range of what, more than 2,000 kilometers is the need for those missiles because you wish to have at least the possibility of hitting deep inside Russia.
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C
Yeah, well, this is part of our NATO membership and this has been part of, by the way, being part of the EU membership of Great Britain, because we have a similar article in the European treaty, like Article 5 in the NATO treaty, which is 42 in the European Treaty. And this is now reopening, renewed by our bilateral treaty between Great Britain and Germany. Today we are ready to defend ourselves and long range fire is part of.
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A
Our defence and long range beans deep into Russia.
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C
This has always been the doctrine of NATO and is now the doctrine of our joint treaty, now part of the.
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A
Need for Britain to be close to Germany and indeed France. You sometimes talk of a triangle of powers in Europe. Is it because of something you said on the night you were elected to lead Germany? And it was very striking. You said this U.S. administration is largely indifferent to the fate of Europe. Is Donald Trump indifferent to the fate of Europe?
- [08:01]
C
Well, at least he is not as clear and as committed as former US Presidents were, former US Administrations were. And that's the reason why we are all looking for more independency from American defense. We know that we have to do more on our own. And we had been free riders in the past and the Americans guaranteed our freedom and our security and they are not willing, understandably, they are not willing to do that any longer. And they are asking us to do more and we are doing more.
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A
So in a sense, he was right when he and his vice president, J.D. vance and the Defence secretary, who were pretty rude, let's be honest, about Germany and Britain and others, they were right. They pushed you into a different position.
- [08:53]
C
They pushed us. And when we had our general elections, this was a week after the Munich Security Conference, when we saw JD Vance speaking to us in a very open manner, so to say, and we have to draw our consequences out of that and we are doing that.
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A
But were you right too? Is he basically in his core, Donald Trump indifferent to the fate of Europe? Or as you've got to know him, have you changed your mind?
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C
No, I have not changed my mind. I'm observing that the Americans for years now moving away from Europe and turning to Asia. This so to say, how is it said pivot to Asia is happening. And there are other places in the world the Americans are interested in. And they are seeing themselves in a very hard competition with China. And that's the reason why they are telling us, take care for your own. And we are doing it now.
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A
People were rather nervous before you went to the White House. They had seen what had happened to Zelenskyy. But you seem to get on okay with Donald Trump. Are you now friends, soul mates, allies? Do you have him on speed dial?
- [10:17]
C
Well, we had met now for three times in a row in Washington, at the G7 in Canada and a week later at the NATO in the Hague. And we are on the phone once a week. We are coordinating our efforts. One issue is the war in Ukraine and the second is our trade debates and tariffs. And we are trying to come to results. And that's the reason why I'm so committed.
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A
Now. You're a businessman. You took 12 years out of.
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C
I'm a politician in the meantime again.
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A
Well, you are now and you were, but you took 12 years out. You were a very successful corporate lawyer, it's often said, made millions as a corporate lawyer visiting America, what, a thousand times in a dozen years. Is there a bond there? Not maybe politically with Donald Trump. You're both deal makers.
- [11:13]
C
Well, I like America and I used to travel to the US Very often. I never lived there, unfortunately, I had no chance to do that in my career. But I like the country. I like the way they are doing business. I'm very familiar with many companies, corporates in the US and we are having very, very close bonds to the United States economically. So Germany is one of the key countries outside the Americas to do business with America.
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A
You are. Until he puts tariffs on German exports, on European exports, and he's threatening still to put 30% tariffs on those exports. You warned recently that if he went ahead it would interfere with everything. It would hit the German export industry to the core. How worried are you now?
- [12:06]
C
Well, I'm concerned, but not pessimistic because I see that the American administration is willing to come to an agreement within the next two weeks. And we are now seeing the deadline, August 1st. And I very much hope that we will come to an agreement. The Americans are putting tariffs in place. I know that we are will not have a symmetric agreement, but 30% is unacceptable. It's killing our export industry. So that's the reason why I see that There are many members in the administration seeing that problem, seeing that they should not overdo. But let's wait and see what will happen come up in the next couple of days. My, my, my observation is that the president himself is seeing the challenges and that he is willing to come to an agreement.
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A
He gets it. I think, yes, we all have to work out what Donald Trump might be thinking. You more than, than most. You see, you speak quite calmly these days about the president. That's the nature of modern diplomacy, isn't it? Some people think Europe is just too scared to stand up to him, scared to threaten him with the sort of tariffs he's threatening you with.
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C
Well, my approach to this conflict is quite simple. Keep calm and work on the issues. And we are doing that. And nobody is benefiting from a trade war between the US And Europe. So that's my, my view on that. And that's the reason why I'm trying to come to an agreement shoulder on shoulder with the European Commission, with Ursula von der Leyen. She's the president of the EU Commission. The eu, the European Union, is the partner for the United States of America.
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A
Now, another big part of this treaty that you're signing with the Prime Minister is about the economy is the backdrop to this, these extraordinary comments made by Jamie Dimon, the boss of the US Banking giant JP Morgan the other day. You know him well, I think, and you will know the comments, but he effectively said to Europe, you're losing, pointing out that over a decade or so, Europe had gone from having an economy almost the same size as America, 90% or so, to 65%. Is he right that Europe is losing?
- [14:35]
C
Well, the figures are very clear and speaking a very clear language. So we are, we are lacking behind in terms of our competitiveness, and we are lagging behind in terms of our productivity. So we have to work on that. That's the reason why we are implementing such a big and ambitious reform agenda in Germany. That's the reason why we are working very hard in this government on competitiveness. We achieved within 10 weeks first fundamental legislation in Germany on tariffs, on tax burden. So we are reducing the tax burden for our corporates and we are moving on after summer break. We are doing the work during summer in the government. And as soon as Parliament comes back from the summer break, we will put some new legislation on the table in parliament. So we are really working hard in improving our economy.
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A
And yet, as you mentioned, you decided to do something that no other German chancellor has done. You scrapped something that is almost like a Biblical text, the so called debt break the constitutional limit on borrowing. And you, a conservative politician, I'm told, an admirer of Ronald Reagan and Margaret that you said let us build, borrow what? Half a trillion? A trillion maybe.
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C
So this is on two purposes. The one is defense. We know that we have to do much more than we did in the past and we are now scaling up to 5% of our GDP. And the second big challenge is our infrastructure. We are having not that infrastructure we need for our economy. That's the reason why we are with not good feelings, but that's the reason why we changed our constitution so to be able to spend this money on defense and infrastructure. And that is the purpose.
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A
Yes, because some people, even people who love Germany sometimes point out there are bridges that have fallen down because there's no money to rebuild them. There are public sector using fax machines still you want that Germany to be behind you to change.
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C
That's true. But we are working hard on that as well. We have now never had that before. A Ministry for digitization and state modernization in one hand. The minister is coming from the private sector, deeply experienced in transformation and he is doing the same now on the state level.
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A
And given your politics, given the admiration of as it were, the free market and low taxes, you're a conservative. Do you miss Britain at the heart of the EU making these arguments?
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C
I do. And you might know that I was member of the European Parliament in the early 90s. We had the Brits still there. I liked them. We were like minded in so many political questions. And if I were a Brit, a British citizen, I had voted to remain. But this has happened now the other way. We have to accept that. We have to work on that. And that's one of the reasons why I'm here today to sign this treaty with the United Kingdom and Germany on friendship and close cooperation. Because we need something as a treaty like this for our cooperation. Because the membership of the European Union is no longer there.
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A
Friendship and cooperation. But you can't negotiate trade because that is for the EU as a whole to negotiate. But do you hope that the deal that was done recently between the EU and uk do you hope it's the beginning of a journey closer trade relationships?
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C
I definitely hope so. And I'm very close with Keir Starmer and we are really working very well, full of trust and confidence. And you remember that we were together in Kiev in the very first week of my when I took office. And economically we tried to bring our two countries closer together. We would like to ease people from the business to travel. We would like to see students to have better exchanges and free access to our respective countries. That's the reason we are signing this treaty.
- [18:58]
A
Now, President Macron, when he was here just a few days ago, said that there was a risk that our societies are growing apart. Is that a worry you have?
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C
Absolutely. I share that view. And you might know as well that President Macron and myself, we are very close. And the three of us, Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron and myself, we are trying to establish this format of E3, like we say, in terms of security, foreign policy, but as well in terms of economic growth in our respective countries. And that's the reason why we are trying to coordinate ourselves at the best we can.
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A
You said something intriguing. You said that continental Europeans were not entirely blameless when it came to Brexit. We didn't do enough to help them. The Brits come to a different referendum result. What did you mean?
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C
Well, I remember 2016, when this vote was held and your former Prime Minister David Cameron, tried to achieve some different regulation on the European level in terms of social transfer from one country to the other, and he completely failed. And he came back to London with empty hands. And at the same time, the refugee crisis came up and we did not do enough to tackle this problem. The right opposite was the case. And these two points, Social Security and transfer system and the refugee crisis was, in my view, from the continental perspective, two of the main reasons for the outcome of the referendum in the uk.
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A
Yes. So when you've referred in the past to a misguided asylum and immigration policy in Germany, you think that was not just bad for Germany, it might have helped Brits to decide to leave the eu.
- [21:01]
C
You remember, as I do, how the news were in These days in 2016, there were two big issues. One was European regulation, and the second one was the refugee crisis. And if I'm remembering correctly, these were the two main points where the debate in the UK took place.
- [21:24]
A
Now, Keir Starmer says he wants your help now. And in the treaty that you're signing, there is some commitment to help, because pretty much every boat and every engine that is used to transport migrants across the Channel from France to the UK travels through or is held for some time in your country in Germany, but under the law, people smugglers cannot be prosecuted. How quickly will you change that law?
- [21:50]
C
Well, this is part of our treaty and we are decided on both sides of the Channel to change that as soon as possible. And that's the reason why we are now laying that down in our agreement today. And we will do our homework immediately after. And then we will criminalize all these guys who are trying to bring refugees illegally to our countries.
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A
Changing law takes time. Are we talking years?
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C
Well, we will. We will not need that much time. When we come back to Parliament in September, October, we will be willing to change that. And the treaty is the legal basis for that.
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A
You said when you got elected, we've reached the limit. You said about people coming over Germany's borders, and you're now locked in dispute with German courts, with some neighboring countries. How important is this battle for you?
- [22:44]
C
Well, this is. First, let me say that we are really coordinating all our efforts in terms of bringing these numbers down with our European neighbors. There is no neighbor. We are not talking within the European Union, and we only have members within the European Union and Switzerland. And we are having a very, very intensive debate with them. Our ministers of the interior are working closely together and they are doing everything what they can to do that on a European level.
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A
And is it make or break for Europe if this is not resolved? And you have tried to turn migrants away at the border, saying they should be dealt with elsewhere, and the courts are frustrating to you. Is it that significant?
- [23:34]
C
Well, the numbers are still too high, and the first results are to be seen. The numbers are going down. And within the last two months, we brought the numbers down about roughly 50%. So first results are there. We have to work on that. This will remain a big challenge for us for the next month, if not years. But the answer is not just local, not just domestic, it's European. But as long as we do not have the sufficient protection of our European borders, we have to protect our borders internally.
- [24:15]
A
Your predecessor, Angela Merkel, famously said back in that refugee Crisis almost what, 10 years ago via Schaffendass, we can do it in English. Are you now, as Chancellor of Germany, saying, wir Schaffendass nicht mehr, we can't do it anymore?
- [24:34]
C
Well, the results are very clear. We are seeing that our communes are not able to bring these refugees to school, to hospitals. We are not having enough housing for them. So the numbers are too high. And that's the reason why we are working hard on that, knowing that this will not change the entire picture overnight.
- [25:01]
A
It sounds like that isn't a bad slogan for Friedrich Merz Wirschafendasnigmark.
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C
But we will make it like it is today and we will resolve the problem.
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A
You will know that her concern, and she has been critical of you she said we could see Europe being ruined. Is in effect that having knocked down the wall that divided your country, that divided Europe, that you effectively re erect walls across Europe and Germany.
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C
The key message is that we all want to preserve the internal market program, the Schengen space and that we know how valuable free move of capital, persons, goods and services are within the European Union. But on the other hand, we have to tackle these problems with illegal migration. And we are on a good way. We are seeing now a new initiative within the European Union coming from Italy, Denmark, the Netherlands, 18 member states as well. Behind these initiatives, Germany is on the way. So we are right, we are on the way to improve the European legislation on that as well. My optimism is that we will tackle the problem.
- [26:21]
A
There's a political reason for you to be concerned too. We've seen the rise and rise of the far right. Some of your own government bodies describe them as neo Nazi. The AfD Alternative for Deutschland. Should we be frightened? Germany's friends looking in?
- [26:39]
C
No, let's be optimistic that those who are in favor for a free and open society, for democracy, for wide range of political convictions, are really having seen the challenges coming from the far right and by the way, from the far left as well. And that's the reason why we are trying in this collision out of the Social Democrats and the Christian Democrats in Germany to resolve the key problems. And the key problems are migration and economy. And we are on a good way.
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A
The AfD are the official opposition now. They're a significant party. I was talking to someone well known here at the German embassy, a German originally, now a Brit, Anita Laska Waufisch, a survivor of Auschwitz, a cellist. I asked her what she would say to you. She said, watch it. The tendency to blame the Jews for everything. It's still there, she said, when she watches the rise of the far right.
- [27:46]
C
And I take that very, very seriously. And my answer is congratulation. She is 100 years old. With full respect. And this is our destiny and this is our main task to preserve Germany in the center of the political arena.
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A
There's a serious question, a bigger one even underlying it, isn't it that as you talk of a stronger Germany, a stronger Germany militarily, but also the rise of the far right, you know, there'll be some listening. You remember the debates about German unity, saying, now hold on, we don't want that. History suggests we should not have a strong military Germany. What do you say to you?
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C
Well, we are witnessing now a completely different world. This period of our history after 1990 is over. And if we want to be able to. To defend ourselves not just as a country, but to defend our democracy, our freedom, peace, wealth in our countries, we have to do more than we did in the past.
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A
Now, in many ways, the relationship between our two countries has been dogged by endless references to what happened 80 or more years ago. Does the appointment of a German, Thomas Tuchel, to be the manager of the England football team make you hope, wish, believe, maybe the hostilities are over between our countries?
- [29:19]
C
I know him pretty well because he was, in former times, the coach of my team in Germany. So good luck to him and the British team, the English team.
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A
Is it a symbol, though, a symbol that in a way, we're moving on?
- [29:33]
C
We are moving on. And this is now nobody is complaining about. I hope so. A German coach in England. So you see how history is changing.
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A
To the better now you, in many ways represent a change for Germany too, Chancellor Merkel. We got used to visiting supermarkets for the cameras. You're a pilot of private planes, you're a successful businessman, a corporate lawyer. Are the qualities that make a good pilot suitable for someone who wants to be a country's leader?
- [30:08]
C
For a pilot, it's important to be always ahead of your aircraft. So always thinking ahead, always driving a car or flying an aircraft ahead of where you are, actually. So, by the way, I go to the supermarket as well, but I don't take cameras with me, you know, great.
- [30:29]
A
Fans, you and Angela Merkel of each other. Did you wish her a happy birthday to them?
- [30:33]
C
Well, from time to time we. We meet. But this is fine. Her time is over. My time is now.
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A
Pilots also, they're risk takers. They need to be quick on their feet. Is Friedrich Merz, the potential pilot of Europe, taking a few more risks?
- [30:49]
C
Well, I try to do what I can as a German Chancellor, together with my colleagues within the European Union and beyond. That's the reason why I'm here today, to drive this European continent forward together.
- [31:05]
A
Now, you mentioned some of the difficulties facing your government going forward. You've got big debates, haven't you, about reforming social benefits, about health and so on. And the backdrop is that the boss of Allianz, huge company, said that Germany is the sick man now of Europe. Has your coalition, because it is a coalition with the Social Democrats on the center left. Has it got the resolve to really take the decisions that need to be taken?
- [31:35]
C
When you are taking a look at our coalition agreement, you will see a coalition agreement which is really addressing these challenges. We are having ahead of us. And this is not just economy and migration. This is as well R and D. This is technology. This is modern economy, service oriented. Much more than we did in the past open for AI computing, a modern society and a modern industry. That is our goal and we are moving ahead. And now we are in week number 10 out of 200 where we are elected for. So this is the way we have just begun. But we are very optimistic to pursue our goals.
- [32:28]
A
You know what they say of you? They say the same of Keir Starmer. There's a crisis in his government.
- [32:32]
C
They say all crisis. This is not a crisis in the government. We are having some issues on the table, but we are doing pretty well in this government. We are cooperating closely together and that's the reason why we are really optimistic that we can achieve something.
- [32:46]
A
As you've got to know, the Prime Minister, you were able to advise each other. He had quite a big rebellion recently.
- [32:51]
C
He is making his experiences here. We are doing our experiences at home. So we are all having our domestic issues, but we are jointly together to tackle these security problems we are faced with in the UK and on the European continent as well.
- [33:07]
A
Now, finally, the treaty again, it's full of grand but important declarations. But do you hope as you launch it at the Victoria and Albert Museum, huge bit of symbolism there. Do you hope it make a practical difference to people's lives? It will change the way ordinary men and women live their lives?
- [33:25]
C
I very much hope that. And the first group of people who would realize that are students, that they will be able to travel much easier than they do after the Brexit. And the second group will hopefully be the people from the business that they can travel and make business much easier than after Brexit. And we are doing that step by step moving forward. Yes.
- [33:50]
A
And Britain and Germany are friends and allies.
- [33:54]
C
Absolutely.
- [33:55]
A
Chancellor Friedrich Mertz, thank you very much for talking.
- [33:57]
C
Thank you for having me. What shapes a political life and what echoes after the headlines fade? I wanted what young women like me.
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A
Didn'T have and that was power. I sit down with figures who have.
- [34:11]
C
Influenced our politics to hear the stories behind their decisions.
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A
She saw me as the Cabinet's man in Scotland. I had to point out to her I was the Cabinet's man in Scotland, but I was also Scotland's man in the Cabinet.
- [34:24]
C
Conversations with leading public figures reflecting on their lives in politics. The new series of reflections. With me, James no from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.
- [34:42]
B
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