← Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
The Josh Babarinde One
00:33:33
How one Lib Dem MP persuaded ministers to change the law within a year of being elected.
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This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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Transferring colleges isn't giving up, it's choosing what works. At Beacon College, more than 30% of students began their journey somewhere else, then found a community designed for neurodivergent learners to aim higher and succeed. With small class sizes, wraparound support and integrated career preparation, students build their future with confidence. Beacon College in Leesburg, Florida, an accredited institution uniquely serving students who learn differently and recognized on the Forbes accessibility. Learn more at beaconcollege.edu transfer BBC Sounds music radio Podcasts hello and welcome to Political Thinking. When criminals were released early from prison because there simply weren't enough cells to house all those who'd been sentenced, it was victims of domestic violence who were amongst the most alarmed and fearful. Ministers said that they didn't want to release domestic abusers, but since there is no crime of domestic abuse, it was impossible to identify all domestic abusers in order to keep them all locked up. My guest on Political Thinking this week is trying to change that. He spoke movingly in the House of Commons of the abuse he and his mother faced from her ex partner. And despite the fact he's been an MP for less than a year and is a Liberal Democrat, he's persuaded Labour ministers to back his campaign. He is Josh Babarinde, the first black Liberal Democrat mp, the party's justice spokesperson who's already he might not welcome this been tipped to be a future party leader. Josh Barbarinde, welcome to Political Thinking.
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A
Thanks for having me, Nick.
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B
I watched you speak in the House of Commons and you quoted a speech that you'd heard in the House of Commons long before you became an mp. A speech, is it fair to say that changed your life and may end up contributing to changing the law of this country?
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A
It was thoroughly moving. Michelle Thompson, then SMP MP for Edinburgh west and yes, she got up in the winter of 2016 and spoke about her experience of being a survivor of rape and she said in her speech, I am not a victim, I am a survivor. And that really changed a lot of things for me. And at that time all sorts of things were happening. You had men who were former footballers who spoke about the abuse that they were subject to at the hands of their former coach. And all of this kind of stuff was moving a lot inside me. I was a victim of all sorts of abuse when I was growing up as a child and I swore that I would not speak about it to myself. And these experiences and speeches like Michelle Thompson's really encouraged me to do so.
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B
So you not just Lived as a victim and a survivor. You lived in silence. You had kept it quiet way into your 20s.
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A
Yeah. And a principal reason, aside from the kind of shame, really, that I felt, was thinking about my mum and thinking about the guilt that she would feel on recognizing that this happened to me. And I'll never forget when I. When I told her when I was in my mid-20s, and her words were, I had just one job. And, yeah, that will never leave me, that moment, nor my mum. And we are so solid. She's so incredible. But that is what I was fearing as well. I had one job, meaning she wanted to protect me. When I was born, she was 19 years old. And after she separated from my lovely dad, it was just her and I for a period of time. And all the way through everything that we've been through together since we went through so many of these things together. And so I think she felt as though she had let me down. And, well, I want her to know that she absolutely has not. And she's made me the man I am.
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B
And did she need convincing that you were right to go public, and not just to go public, to make it almost the cause of your life, certainly of your political life, to talk about domestic abuse, to campaign for a change in the law so that it is recognized in law? How did she feel about that?
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A
Mum and I had a few chats about it. I mean, she's fantastic. And ultimately, said, josh, this is. This is your story. These are experiences that you have been through. And if there's something that you want to do with those experiences, I don't want to stop you talking I about them. I want you to do what you feel you need to do with them. But it was so important for me and Mum to have that discussion. I really wanted to raise that with her because, yes, while these are things that I've experienced, it's our shared story. The domestic abuse at home for all that time is a shared experience. And it was so important to have her blessing to speak about this.
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B
It's a shared experience, and I don't want to drag you through talking through the horrors of it, but it's a shared experience. Because even if not an eyewitness to the assault of your mother, you, in effect, witnessed it every time it happened.
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A
That's right. I mean, I remember, you know, moments being in my room as a child upstairs, hearing doors slam, glasses smash, and I was up, you know, crying under my covers, not really knowing if Mum was okay amid all of the shouting and the rest that I could hear and I'd go down the following morning and see, you know, Hoover smashed up as an example and that kind of stuff. So it very much felt as a kind of culture at home, that kind of thing.
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B
I think lots of people listening, watching, will think, hold on, domestic abuse isn't legal. You're not allowed to beat up someone even if they're your partner, wife, husband, surely. So what does it mean to say domestic abuse isn't in the law?
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A
So at the moment, there's no specific offence of domestic abuse in the law. Instead, domestic abusers tend to be convicted of crimes like actual bodily harm, ABH or GBH or assault, all sorts of other crimes. But the problem with that is that there's no way of distinguishing who is a domestic abuser and who isn't on the basis of that crime. A domestic abuser could go down for abh, but so too could someone who's had a brawl in a pub with someone that they've never met before as a one off. And so I really wanted to get to the bottom of this issue because there were all sorts of issues that were being created by there not being a specific categorization.
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B
And the one that was created most recently was around early release, where the government said, look, we're running out of prison places. Everybody else said, yes, it's true, they are running out of prison places. And ministers said, we've got to release people, but we don't, of course, want to release domestic abusers. Their difficulty was there was no way of actually implementing that policy, was there?
- [07:39]
A
There was no way of implementing that. And that was really heartbreaking for so many victims and survivors across the country who felt as though they had been granted that assurance by the government that their abusers were not going to be released early, only to find out that they would be, or that their abusers did qualify. And regardless of what anyone might think about whether it's right or not to exempt domestic abusers from early release, what cannot be debated is that if you make a commitment to victims and survivors, you better damn well keep it. And so I challenged the government on this and said, what are you going to do about it? I didn't feel that solutions were forthcoming. So I worked with victims and survivors and lawyers, but also amazing charities like Women's Aid Refuge and others to come up with a solution to try to patch this up.
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B
And the solution is to, as it were, tack on. It's more important than that. That phrase doesn't quite capture it, does it? But to tack on that phrase domestic abuse to existing crimes, to say, it's not just that crime, it's a crime in this context.
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Exactly. So the original proposal that I put forward was modelled on actually what we already do for racially and religiously aggravated crimes, where you have that aggravation that kind of bolts onto an ABH or GBH or whatever kind of offence it is. I was proposing that we have a domestic abuse aggravated equivalent, because we define domestic abuse in the law already. It's in the Domestic Abuse Act 2021, but it doesn't specifically criminalize it as an offence. So this early release problem was the kind of key thing that drew my attention to this gap in the law. But then, Nick, on kind of more and more digging, it unravelled further. So a key thing I found, which I found shocking, was I asked the government, how many domestic abusers are there in prison and what is their reoffending rate? And the response that I got back in black and white, almost word for word, was it is not currently possible to robustly calculate the number of domestic abusers in prison or their reoffending rate. The reason being there is no specific offence or no specific categorization.
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B
So the data simply doesn't exist.
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A
It didn't exist. Which meant that, you know, if we're trying to figure out which interventions, say, are best at reducing offending among domestic abusers, the government doesn't have that information from its own figures. And also it's got this amazing aim to try to halve violence against women and girls over the next decade. But how on earth could a government pursue that aim or know that it's met it, if it's not measuring one of the key forms of violence against women?
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B
Now, what's interesting about the work you've done is you're a Liberal Democrat, you're in the opposition, in other words. But the governments say, yep, we going to adopt what you say, it will be in legislation coming forward. Is that it? Is it over? Have you got what you want?
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A
It is not over. So it's great, after meetings with every Minister going on this or raising it in the House of Commons, with all of them, the Justice Secretary, the Home Secretary, the Victims Minister, the Prisons Minister, the Solicitor General, the Attorney General, the list goes on. I've secured, working with all these amazing survivors, this commitment to try to achieve the same outcome as I was rooting for, but via slightly different means. And so what the government has said they'll do is introduce this specific categorization, but rather than at the beginning kind of of an offence, it's tagged on at the sentencing stage. And so I'm pushing for the government to give confirmation that, yes, that tag is something that we will use to exclude domestic abusers from any future early release scheme.
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B
And we know there's more early releases coming, something called the Gawke Review. Former Tory Justice Secretary David Gawke recommended that more people got out of prison earlier in order to clear the prisons which are overcrowding. Would you oppose that if this hasn't happened? If you haven't reached the stage where you can say, well, look, we do know who. Who is a domestic abuser and who is not?
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A
Well, first things first. We've gotta honour this commitment that the Government's made to domestic abusers that their perpetrators will not be released early. And we've gotta get on top of the data. But ultimately we need to row all the way back and look at why are our prisons overflowing in the first place? And when we look at that and when we investigate that question, just look at our prisons. I mean, 80% of people who are in there are people who have offended before. Prison is not working as a means of rehabilitation or reducing reoffending if it's producing those kind of outcomes. And so what I'm pushing the government to do, and I really draw on sort of my career supporting kids out of crime, out of gangs and into employment. What I'm pushing the government to do is to really focus on that reducing reoffending piece, because David Gauke's review was all about capacity and kind of supply. But we really need to reduce the demand on our prison system.
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B
Do you think you would have had the impact that you've had, got the hearing that you got, if by chance you didn't actually know the Prisons Minister, because part of your career was actually working with ex offenders, wasn't it? That's what you did as a youth worker in East London after you left Eastbourne and what other people who sponsored you were. Was the guy who's now the Prisons Minister, James Timson of the Timson shoe repair business, who have for many decades used ex offenders in their shops. When you think about making change in politics, if you hadn't, as it were, had that bit of luck, do you think they might have said, well, who's he? He's just on the opposition benches. Why should we listen to him?
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I think some of the real progress that we're able to make on this domestic abuse reform was. Was, yes, as a result of getting ministers on board, and I was willing to call in any favor, any contact I had to try to make this happen. And I made it clear to ministers, I'm not letting go of this, I am not giving up. But I think the real power of the campaign came from it being driven so much by the experiences and insights of victims and survivors across the country. I mean, I think of people like Elizabeth Hudson, who I launched this campaign with. She is a survivor who was originally told that her abuser, who was convicted of ABH, would qualify for the STS 40 early release scheme.
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B
Meaning you only serve 40% of your sentence.
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A
Exactly. But was not exempt in a way that she had thought he would be. In the end, things changed, but it was survivors like her. It was bringing together women's aid, refuge, mankind, lots of organizations to put pressure on. And I took every opportunity, grabbing ministers down the corridor in the tea room, sending them whatsapps. James Timpson was really helpful. Absolutely. In fact, when on the day that I was elected, I then heard that he was appointed to the Lord and I dusted off his number, hadn't messaged him in a good few years and said, oh, my goodness, we're both parliamentarians now. Let's do some cool stuff.
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B
Your predecessor, but Watt, as MP for Eastbourne, said you were tenacious but unfailingly courteous. Is that. Is that the key to bringing about change in the House of Commons if you're not in the government party?
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A
When. When I was supporting kids out of gangs and out of crime, we had a saying or a practice known as relentless intervention. And this was the idea that you keep going back, you keep going back, even if you're pushed away by those who you're trying to influence or whose minds you're trying to change. You let them know that you're always going to be there, so that when they are ready, when they've done their work and started to change their minds, they're ready to engage with you and hear what you've got to say. That's what I'd describe.
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B
Let's talk about that work that you did. You set up a business doing, effectively charitable work, but it was a business repairing broken mobile phone screens. Now, what is the link between that? The boy from Eastbourne, who has a very tough upbringing, goes on to be head boy at his school and then ends up running a business repairing mobile phone screens. What's the link between that and youth, justice and hope?
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A
Good question. I mean, the link is, I was working with these folks, mainly lads in the East End, and I could see that Income, belonging, self worth, these were the key things that they wanted. But failing to see legitimate opportunities accessible to them, to pursue those things that you or I might look for as well, Nick. They turned to crime as a place where they could get those things. And gangs. I wanted to intercept that. And all of the evidence tells us that employment is one of the single biggest factors that can reduce someone's propensity to offend or to reoffend. So I was thinking, well, how do I support them towards employment? And many of them were saying, look, Josh, we're always pigeonholed into certain professions and we're not really interested in those. What about technology? And so I thought, okay, how can I support them into the tech sector? So drew up a list of tech based skills. Phone repair was sixth or something on the list. It ticks a lot of the boxes on paper. And so I thought, well, I don't know how to repair a phone and I don't care for phone repair intrinsically. But it ticked the boxes and I was determined to make it work. And so the company was born.
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B
When you looked at these kids on a rough estate, was that you? Were you looking at people who were like you when you were a kid growing up in Eastbourne?
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A
I was looking at a lot of young people who'd had home lives who were not dissimilar to mine.
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B
So what made you different? Cause here's the intriguing thing. We've heard this moving story of the abuse you suffered. You haven't spelt it out, but we know it's there. And the abuse your mother suffered, and yet you go on to be the head boy. You set up a business, you get an OBE, you become an MP in your early 30s, having been a counsellor. What's the secret to that?
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A
Eastbourne is the secret. My gorgeous hometown. I mean, I had incredible teachers who believed in me. And in fact, I quite recently got the chance to reunite with Mrs. Lynch, my year five teacher, who really turned things around for me. And I told her about the impact. I told her about some of the things that were going on at home that weren't necessarily clear back then and the impact that she had. But the likes of incredible scout leaders who challenged me and local businesses that took a punt on me. My first job was serving pizzas in a restaurant. I didn't know what I was doing and I had a great community that lifted me. But there are many young people who I was working with when I was doing that work. With young people involved in gangs and crime, antisocial Behaviour who didn't have that around them or who weren't connected to that. And the only difference between them and I in that respect, really was luck. I was lucky to have these things around me. They were not in the same way.
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B
But if you'd said to them, join the Scouts, I suspect they would have gone. You're kidding. Really? Even though the Chief Scout, now, he's a guy who's got a story rather like your story, isn't he?
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A
Yeah. And it's about finding the right pitch. So when I was doing my work supporting folks out of gangs and crime, if I just approached folks when I was, you know, doing outreach out on the States. Go on, you know, out on the States, Shubert o' clock at night, into stairwells full of kids smoking weed and the rest and approach them and say, you know, join the Scouts or come and join my program, it's a no. If the approach is I can teach you to make money and I can teach you to do that by fixing phones, will you let me do a demo right here, right now? You're changing the nature of the conversation.
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B
It's transactional, almost.
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A
Yeah, exactly. And you're appealing to something that's important to them and to their values, and that's what's so important. And again, that's how we eradicate or minimize the role that luck plays in shaping people's respective courses and qualities of life. I think people should be able to go as far as their talents, their motivation, their commitment.
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B
You've often said luck and wanted to make sure that life doesn't depend on luck, is the reason you became a Liberal Democrat. It's not obvious why you should be a Liberal Democrat, actually, rather than in, say, the Labour Party. Is it simply an Eastbourne? They're the opposition to the Tories. If you're not going to be a Tory, you're a Liberal Democrat. That's the history of that town, politically, at least.
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A
No, I think it's about much more than that. I mean, you look at, you know, some of the core liberal and Liberal Democrat values, thinking about and respecting that. The individual and the community, in my view, has a far greater sense of what fulfills them than the market or the state. I think for that reason, it's important that we make sure that power lies with them. It's about accepting that power and cash is best dispensed by those who it is designed to serve. That's the liberal way and that's the Liberal Democrat way. And that's why I remained a member of the party for so many years.
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B
Yeah, because you only joined because of a beer, Matt.
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A
That's it. Yeah. It was a total throwaway thing. I went to a university freshers fair when I was about 17. It was an open day. I was studying A level politics at that time. Had a look around. There was a Liberal Democrat store and they had a really cool beer mat and I wanted it.
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B
Trying to work out what a cool Liberal Democrat possibly.
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A
Look, next time I see you, I will show you.
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B
Is it a graphic?
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A
It was a bit of both. It was the. The graphic was quite cool and it had. It had a slogan written on it in several different forms. I thought was clever wordplay and I.
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B
Thought almost to Brexit by each other.
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A
It wasn't quite. It was that. That was. I should stress that would be a good. A good beer mat. But I saw this beer mat, I wanted it. They wouldn't let me have it unless I joined. So my mate Abby paid for me to join. And so it began.
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B
And the rest is history, as they say now. You praised your teacher, you beat her to become mp. I mean, you actually defeated the Conservative who was your ex teacher.
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A
That's right. Mrs. Ansell, my predecessor as the MP for Eastbourne, was once my supply teacher for an hour of ari in room 116, covering for Mr. Taylor when I was in year 11, I think it was. And she taught me everything I know. And look at what happened.
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B
What sort of gratitude was that?
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A
Well, you know what, we have a lot of respect for each other. We're still in touch. Still in touch. Now she lobbies me on a number of issues, but it was important for it to be respectful. But it's so Eastbourne. Eastbourne is one big village. And so it was almost unsurprising that there would be such a link between the likes of us competing.
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B
I raised a doubt as to why you might be a Liberal Democrat. There's another reason, which is your ethnicity. You are the first black Liberal Democrat. Now that is extraordinary to say that if you look at the success that the Conservatives have had, never mind the Labour Party, who were way ahead, but in terms of having black leader. Now, in terms of having black people in the most prominent jobs, whether as Charles Herzsche or Home Secretary in the last government, why has it been so difficult for the Liberal Democrats to get people of color inside their party?
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A
Yeah, well, of course, we've had two black Liberal Democrat MPs who defected. Sam Jima and Chuka Umunna.
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B
One next story.
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A
One ex Labour indeed. But yeah, I've, you know, have the honor of being the first elected as a Liberal Democrat and I'm determined to try to diversify our party even further. I mean, before I was elected, I helped to run an internal organization within the Liberal Democrats racial diversity campaign to provide mentoring for folks who were thinking about becoming a candidate or who had jumped through a few hoops already and needed to get over the line in terms of being selected in advocacy, what's the barrier to see?
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B
I mean, is it simply that if you don't see people like you, then you don't think of joining and therefore it's a vicious circle and in the end if people do see you in particular, that may change? Or is there something more fundamental going on?
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A
I definitely think that role models are super important. And we've got many role models, not just at a parliamentary level, you know, in the House of Lords we've got the likes of Floella Benjamin, what a role model there. But also at local government level as well. We have some incredible councillors. And what I really want to do is kind of harness the talent and inspiration that they represent to ensure that the ladder is there for more folks.
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B
Something else going on, isn't there? Which is what I'm about to say is of course a sweeping generalization. But like lots of generalisation, there's a grain of truth in it. The Liberal Democrats are a white middle class, southern professional party. In the main that's their activist based, they're not people from in the main council of states.
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A
Well, I think we've got so much work to do, not just in the Liberal Democrats to diversify our party, but across the political sphere altogether. And not just when it comes to ethnicity, but when you look at gender as well. We've got a record number of MPs who are women, record number who are from LGBT backgrounds like me, record number of folks from ethnic minority backgrounds. But of course we could go even further and I think, you know, for all that the likes of reform and others say diversity really is strength. I mean, you think about some of the great liberal thinkers like John Stuart Mill, they talk about how important it is to have as many views as possible kind of in the room to debate the ideas with a view to arriving at the kind of most strong one by the end. So I think it's in all our interests in all parties to drive greater diversity.
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B
In your maiden speech you pointed out that there was another crucial stride forward for diversity, an increase in the number of Joshes.
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A
There are now seven of Us from zero.
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B
Yes. What's that a tribute to, I wonder. Let me just suggest another thing about the Liberal Democrats that though, which is, again, I teased you that you were in the party because you just weren't a Tory. And that's what people in Eastbourne tend to do if they're not Tories and they're in that town. My apologies to the Greens and the Labour members and the Reform members that I know they're there, but that's the history of politics in Eastbourne. There's another reason, which is you're not making that much impact. It's a huge increase in the number of Liberal Democrats at the moment in the House of Commons. Sir Ed Davy leads a big third party. And yet. And maybe it's our fault in the media, you might say, and yet, I don't think you're making a fraction of the impact of Nigel Farage's party Reform uk.
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A
Well, it depends what kind of impact we're talking about. I mean, if we're talking about catching media headlines through, coming out with outlandish stuff, well, anyone could do that. And I could say any old thing right now and it could be news tomorrow. But if you are talking about the impact for people on the ground, then just look at some of the things Liberal Democrats are achieving. Let's take, you know, the domestic abuse reform that we've talked about already, that's going to benefit thousands of survivors across the country. Another Lib Dem campaign by Max Wilkinson, the MP for Cheltenham, is around his Sunshine Bill, which the government have essentially adopted. That will mean that new builds will be mandated to have solar panels installed as part of a rooftop solar revolution.
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B
But you've got to find a way of doing the things you believe in but also make an impact. Haven't you getting talked about being on the issues that people are talking about? Because one of the reasons that Reform UK is getting attention, arguably, is because they have spoken out about things that people in large numbers care about. Let's take grooming gangs, for example. You were scathing of the critics of the government on grooming gangs. But weren't those in Reform. Weren't the Tories right to say the government didn't want to do very much about this? They had to be nagged and bullied by the likes of politicians on the right and Elon Musk before they launched a national inquiry?
- [28:30]
A
I've been scathing of populist politicians who try to exploit people, people's vulnerabilities and people's traumas for their own political Ends. I mean, the scandal when it comes to grooming, gangs and more widely, child sexual abuse and exploitation has been a scandal that's plagued our country for quite some time. I haven't heard all of these folks give things due attention over the years when many campaigners, many victims and survivors have been screaming out for help, have been screaming out for, for example, the 20 recommendations from the last major inquiries report to be implemented. And so it feels very curious to me that there are some who decide that when it might suit them politically that they will make a song and dance about this. But when they were in government, including the leader of the Opposition when she was the Minister for Children, seem not to mention this in the House of Commons at all.
- [29:32]
B
Doesn't it work the other way though? When you talk of people doing things for their own advantage, people who say, don't talk about this subject, don't mention race, let's not have this debate. They were doing it for their own self interested purposes as well. They were protecting themselves and not protecting the victims.
- [29:49]
A
Those folks can speak for themselves and I can speak for myself, both as a survivor but as a politician. I think it is appalling whichever political party you're from, if you exploit people's vulnerabilities to try to score points. And I've seen politicians from various parties look smug on this kind of thing, celebrate some of these things insensitively as wins for their own party. And if they're really serious about getting to the bottom of this, then they need to explain why they didn't enact any of the 20 recommendations from Alexis J's report.
- [30:26]
B
You're clear about your opposition to the Tories. You beat a Conservative to become Liberal Democrat mp. Josh Babarinde, you've worked with Labour ministers to get this change to sentencing policy. If it turns out that way after the next election, would you happily serve in a lib lab government working alongside the people you now know quite well?
- [30:48]
A
Well, hang on a minute. I've been an MP what, five minutes? The election is way away and you look at lots of the things that Labour are getting up to and they're not things that chime with my liberalism or my party's liberalism. What I've demonstrated is that regardless of where we sit in Parliament, Liberal Democrats are able to make an impact reforming the law on domestic abuse and the rest.
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B
Is it a curse to be referred to as maybe the next or next but one leader of the Liberal Democrat party? Do you wish people would stop it?
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A
We'll find out after this Interview if I crash and burn.
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B
But there must be something, I think, that is frustrating for young black politicians. You very quickly get identified in this country, don't you? That awful cliche about being Britain's black Obama or next Obama. David Lammy had it. Chukara Mooner had. Must actually irritate a bit.
- [31:40]
A
Yeah. I mean, I'm my own person and I should say it's not just those folks who I'm getting compared to, but there's others who I'm getting confused with. There's a great someone who's become a good friend, Ben Obsijete, a Conservative MP of mixed heritage. We're always getting mixed up and compared to one another as well, so it flows in all sorts of directions. But I'm my own man. I've had my own experiences. I've got my own things that I'm concerned about and that I want to drive forward. People can make their comparisons if they like, but I'm just Josh from Eastbourne.
- [32:13]
B
Reading a little bit about Josh from Eastbourne, I've suddenly realised that the key to this is not that you're young, it's not your ethnicity, it's the fact that you were Eastbourne's cutest baby. That is the key to your career, surely, so far.
- [32:29]
A
That was my first election. My mum was my campaign manager and she played a blinder, so I'll get her back on board for the next one.
- [32:38]
B
Eastbourne Scooters, baby. Josh Barbarende, thank you for joining me on political thinking.
- [32:42]
A
Thanks, Nick.
- [32:44]
B
Sometimes when you hear politicians arguing in radio and television studios, attacking each other in the House of Commons or online, it's easy to forget how change comes about. And quite often it comes about through one powerful story and through determination and persuasion and a bit of charm. And Josh Barberinde has shown how you can change the law even when you've not been an MP for a year, it is possible. If you've been affected by any of the issues that we have just been discussing, do search online for BBC Action Line. The producer is Daniel Kramer. Sound this week was Jed Sudlow. The editor is Giles Edwards. I'm David Runciman and from BBC Radio 4. This is post War from the Cradle to the grave, they said. Eighty years on, we're telling the story of the 1945 election and the creation of Post War Britain. There must be a revolution in our way of living. This is the Britain that many of us grew up in and which still shapes an idea of who we think we are. Even Winston Churchill thrown out.
- [33:57]
A
All right.
- [33:58]
B
He may have won the war, but you're going to win the peace post war with me, David Runciman. Listen on BBC Sounds, can we have.
- [34:07]
A
The Britain we desire?