← Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
The union leader who agrees with the Tory leader: Daniel Kebede
00:43:53
The National Education Union's general secretary on banning social media, strikes and race
Loading summary
Transcript131 lines
- [00:00]
BBC Announcer
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. At the BBC, we go further so you see clearer with a subscription to BBC.com you get unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 24. 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries from less than a dollar a week for your first year. Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com find out more@BBC.com unlimited.
- [00:38]
Nick Robinson
Hello and welcome to Political Thinking. Ban social media for children, said the Conservative leader, Kemi Badenot this week. And she was supported by my guest on Political Thinking, the head of the UK's largest teaching union, the NEU, Daniel Kebidi. He is the other half of of that unlikely partnership. Unlikely? Why? Well, because he describes himself as an agitator for industrial action and his enemies, his critics in the media describe him in other ways. The Telegraph, for example, as an avowed Marxist and hardened protester. He does believe that the British education system is fundamentally and institutionally racist. For reasons that you will hear. He's described Reform UK as a radio racist and far right party. And prior to becoming chief of the neu, he called on crowds at a Palestinian solidarity rally to globalize the Intifada. Now the government is, in his words, on a collision course with the National Education Union over workload protections and indeed over pay. There's an indicative strike ballot due next month amongst his members. Daniel Kebaby, thank you very much indeed for joining me on Political Thinking.
- [01:58]
Daniel Kebede
Hello.
- [01:59]
Nick Robinson
I was struck when we first talked. Yeah. And I first did some research about you.
- [02:04]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [02:05]
Nick Robinson
That people said, people who fundamentally disagree with you and may actually disagree with everything you stand for. He's a really nice guy. Are you surprised to hear that even your critics tend to say that?
- [02:18]
Daniel Kebede
Well, you know, I think it's really important to try and convince people that there is a better way of doing things. I would like to see, you know, of course, redistribution of wealth and power and greater democracy. And to do that, actually, you've got to try and get on with people. I've never been a real tub thumper. I mean, that introduction, of course, makes me out to sound quite a heavy character, but I believe I'm much friendlier than that. Yeah.
- [02:44]
Nick Robinson
One Tory minister, unnamed, sadly, said, while Kebo can be disarming, one should never be disarmed. I think what he's implying is beneath that smiling exterior is a pretty hard, tough left winger in his mind. Is he right?
- [03:02]
Daniel Kebede
I would say I'm steely. There's no doubt about that, you know, I am certain about what I'd like to see for education for children and indeed for society. But it's important to engage with everyone and try and convince the, the maximum number of people that, you know, the way to do things is different.
- [03:21]
Nick Robinson
Well, let's begin with the things you agree with your traditional critics on. This week you tweeted that you were completely aligned your phrase with Kemi Badenoch on a social media ban for under 16s. Given what you've said, you're perfectly comfortable saying, well, I agree with the Tories, why not?
- [03:36]
Daniel Kebede
Absolutely, I'm completely aligned. I thought her interview on Kuensberg last week was fantastic. In fact, when I was listening to her, I couldn't, you know, determine whether it was something I'd written or what Kemi had indeed, indeed written. And you know, I'm really pleased to be working with Lord Nash, a Conservative peer, on an amendment to the Children's Bill because, you know, actually the stakes are so high in regards to children's well being and indeed social media. I think it's time that we treat social media and big tech like the tobacco giants and indeed regulate them like the tobacco giants.
- [04:08]
Nick Robinson
So you think that this is a public health scandal, do you? Waiting to happen or indeed happening and we're not really doing enough about it.
- [04:17]
Daniel Kebede
So I'm a parent as well and I recognize how addictive social media is for children and I'm sure many adults can relate to that. The Marty Rose foundation has found that one teenager is committing suicide a week where technology or social media is at play. Indeed, I do think it is a public health issue and that's why I'm hoping that government will take bold action.
- [04:41]
Nick Robinson
Now what government have said up till now, although there are hints that they might move, is why don't we wait and see how it goes in Australia where they had a complete ban on social media for the under 16s. But in truth, when you dug down, it's a ban on certain apps, the big name, famous apps. And of course the downside is people find all sorts of ways of getting around it or indeed it's a great opportunity to someone to invent a new app that isn't covered by the law. And that means that young people are just doing the same thing, but not on the big brands.
- [05:14]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah, I mean there's always ways that young people will subvert legislation that's fairly, fairly, fairly common. But I don't think that should halt the aspiration to regulate because, you know, it is so dire out there for Young people at the moment, they're spending on average 35 hours a week on screens. It's something that we're completely not evolved for. No one can recognize that as healthy.
- [05:35]
Nick Robinson
Now, ministers tend to be nervous of bans. You've also backed a ban on mobile phones in the classroom. Speaking not just as the leader of the teaching union, but as a former teacher, a minister will tend to say of any party actually, look, treat people like grown ups, give them the choice, give them maybe tools to help them protect themselves, but don't ban things. What's your answer to that?
- [05:59]
Daniel Kebede
So on the specifics around phones in schools, most schools do have decent policies in place to manage mobile phones, but it's very difficult for parents and indeed for schools. And I think, you know, some legislation nationally on banning mobile phones. Phones would be the right thing. We've got to remember, you know, these are children that we're dealing with. It's all well and good having freedom for adults, but with children we must be much more careful.
- [06:23]
Nick Robinson
And when we talk about the people and the companies behind these products, do you, as someone, as it were, avowedly left wing, regard the billionaires? Because they almost always are billionaires, almost all of them are American. Although there are powerful Chinese tech firms as well, and others too. Do you regard them as the new targets, as the people who really need to be confronted in our society?
- [06:47]
Daniel Kebede
Well, you know, I have a long history on the left and there's always been concern around Murdoch Press, for example. We're now just in a different era where social media is the big, big distributor of information and media. And yeah, indeed they are often controlled by billionaire tech bros. Some are better than others, but all of them are harvesting children's attention at the moment in the pursuit of profit, which is absolutely, absolutely abhorrent. And of course, you know, when you look at platforms like X, you know, actually I would like to see the government a much firmer stance on X. You know, for example, with the artificial intelligence and the creation of images of children and women in particular, you know, if you had a shop that was distributing child pornography, that owner would be in jail. And I would like to see a similar sort of consequences for Elon Musk and the like.
- [07:39]
Nick Robinson
So you want to see Elon Musk or the people who run his company here in this country, potentially, if the courts agree, you want a law that says they can be in prison.
- [07:48]
Daniel Kebede
I would like to see legislation that holds the big tech owners responsible for the distribution of indecent images of children.
- [07:58]
Nick Robinson
Now, what they Say is, look, we're just a platform, we don't decide what goes out on it and if you hold us to account for this, then we end up being held account for everything. And. And freedom of speech pretty quickly goes because someone says, actually I don't like Daniel Kobedi's view so I'm not going to let him post on my site. Isn't it better just to say, open it up, let people make their own judgments?
- [08:22]
Daniel Kebede
So I think freedom of speech is really important, Nick. Actually I'm a huge believer in freedom of speech and get quite frustrated actually at how this has been owned as sort of the lightning rod of the right. I think it's something that the left has always traditionally championed but there is, if we're focused on big tech, the technology available to these companies to ensure that there is no distribution of indecent images and I think that's where the legislation should apply.
- [08:53]
Nick Robinson
Well, let's turn to free speech because people have been quite free in their descriptions of Daniel Kabedi ever since he became General Secretary of the National Education Union. I quoted the Telegraph in the introduction. An avowed Marxist, a hardened protester. The Times called you a militant True.
- [09:11]
Daniel Kebede
So I think, you know, the press always like to apply labels. I have always been someone who wants to see an end to child poverty. I want to see a properly funded education system and actually I want to see much more control for working people. They like to label that as Marxist. I think that's just what most people believe.
- [09:30]
Nick Robinson
We're going to talk about some of the things you do believe and what you want your union to do but in a sense part of what political thinking is about is the roots.
- [09:38]
Daniel Kebede
The roots, yeah.
- [09:39]
Nick Robinson
Where does it come from, these views? Your mother British, your father originally from Ethiopia.
- [09:48]
Daniel Kebede
That's right.
- [09:49]
Nick Robinson
To what extent did that upbringing shape the person you are, shape the views that you've got?
- [09:55]
Daniel Kebede
So I often I've actually started to reflect on this much more the older I've got. My earliest memories actually are my parents separated when I was incredibly young. Is of a single mother just about managing, struggling, you know, she worked every hour that God sent and we would wake up at 7 o' clock in the morning. I'd get dropped off at a childminder, my mum would work all day, we'd get home at 7 o' clock in the evening and as soon as Eastender's theme tune had finished it'd be bedtime. That really did shape, the more I reflect on it, why I am who I am and I want to absolutely see a society in which families can thrive.
- [10:43]
Nick Robinson
Another part of who you are is, let's be honest, the colour of your skin.
- [10:46]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [10:47]
Nick Robinson
And that was noted when you became a General Secretary because it is still quite rare for General Secretaries not to be white. To what extent did that shape your childhood, though? Did you have early experiences of racism? Because as we're about to discuss, you became a rather impassioned anti racist campaigner. Yeah.
- [11:07]
Daniel Kebede
So I can certainly remember racism as a. As a young child. There's really one incident that always sticks out in my mind. I was messing around with a friend in geography. We'd have been about 14, 14 years old. And it was a trainee teacher at the time. Just came over and was like, you're not in the jungle now, Daniel. And I remember that you're not in the jungle. Yeah, it was, you're not in the jungle now, you know. And I just remember, and I don't know whether his intention was, but I can just remember being quite shocked at that saying, I can also remember just sort of incidents in the playground, you know, I can remember, yeah. It being quite a toxic environment at times. I suppose the thing that really stuck in my mind as a young person, when you knew that racism was a problem, was actually the murder of. Of Stephen Lawrence. I would have been about five or six at the time and that being big news and actually that as a young black child being quite, quite terrifying. So, yeah, yeah, racism, you were very.
- [12:13]
Nick Robinson
Aware, just insertly on that incident. Is there any way he couldn't have been meaning what you think?
- [12:20]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah, I tend to look on it with some favorably in the sense that, you know, try to see the best in him and in that situation. But, you know, it does stick in my mind as a. An incident where I was probably treated a bit differently and made to feel uncomfortable and whether the intention was there or not, that's what happened.
- [12:47]
Nick Robinson
Was there much politics at home? Politics when you're being brought up by your mother. Politics at all in your contact with your father, which meant that he said, you go and fight.
- [12:55]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah. So my mum has always. She's been a huge influence on my life. She is what you would call like a striver. I remember her going back to university when I was 10 years old. You know, she went to night classes to improve her life. She's always been, get out there and make things happen. Don't sort of wallow and. Yeah. Change things.
- [13:21]
Nick Robinson
Well, you didn't wallow, did you? You went on anti fascist marches. Yeah. This was at Time in the early 2000s when the British National Party at the time, the big far right party, Nick Griffin, was winning council seats, winning European seats, getting what, half a million votes back in 2010. And you go on the streets.
- [13:43]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah, yeah. So I was 17 actually when I first confronted the National Front and it wasn't really for political reasons. We knew that they were coming to our area and I suppose it was just a group of young men looking for a bit of drama. And I actually remember turning us turning up there and they were due to get off a train station. There was a counter demonstration and the police didn't let them get off. They had to go back. And so then was the sort of the first time that I sort of recognized being part of a mass anti racism movement and actually trying to confront this would was a positive thing. I didn't really do anything then until about 2008, but just after, when I'd moved to the northeast of England, my mum had moved up while I was at university. I'd sort of gone into the credit crunch and needed a place to live. My mum was very much come and live with me. And I remember it was a small town in County Durham. It had this huge history of industry actually and there had been pools of bitterness left through deindustrialization. And I remember walking past the British National Party stall and thinking, you know, this is not acceptable.
- [14:56]
Nick Robinson
They're the enemy.
- [14:57]
Daniel Kebede
That, yeah, you know, I am British, I was born here and I will contribute to this society and no one's going to send me anywhere.
- [15:09]
Nick Robinson
And it's a fight, and it's a fight you're willing to have, albeit speaking quietly.
- [15:14]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah, I think, you know, I, I think it is a fight against racism. We should absolutely all oppose it and we should all work towards a society in which all children, regardless of their background, can flourish.
- [15:26]
Nick Robinson
Now there'll be plenty of people listening to what you've said who say, well here, here to that. But then it gets a bit more controversial, doesn't it, as you go into the National Education Union, what used to be the National Union of Teachers, and express your views. You say the British education system is fundamentally and institutionally racist. And you say the national curriculum has continued to be organized by powerful white men who are teaching children a little England white savior narrative. Do you really think that the national curriculum, that the British education system is racist?
- [16:03]
Daniel Kebede
So one thing that I've always believed, Nick, is actually that there is an anti racist majority that exists in Britain and that actually the overwhelming majority of British people are appalled by racism. What I also do think is that the curriculum, whilst we have made progress, needs to change. And you know, that's been something that's recognised in the curriculum and assessment review, that there needs to be young people need to see themselves reflected in it. When I was a little boy, you know, I never saw any literature that had anyone who looked like me in school. And things are getting better, but I do think there's much more to do.
- [16:39]
Nick Robinson
So is this centrally about the teaching of history, maybe literature too and ensuring that black history, that black literature is featured, or are you making a bigger point here that actually the whole of the curriculum actually reflects what you see as racism and the dominance of powerful white men.
- [16:56]
Daniel Kebede
So what I think is that we need to tell a warts and all history of Britain. Warts and all history. Of course, there's been fantastic things that Britain has done in the world and in fact I actually think we should celebrate in schools much more the anti racist history of Britain. Because, you know, cotton mill workers in the northwest of England went on strike against slavery, for example, there was the battle of Cable Street. I think we need to celebrate that much more. We also, I don't think really talk about our role in the world in its historical context in a really truthful manner. There's very little on the MAU MAU uprising, for example, it used to be called Kenya. Absolutely. Or man made famines in Bangladesh.
- [17:40]
Nick Robinson
We're often this and it's a massive simplification. So I say that before I ask you the question where often this argument about Britain and history comes down to is Winston Churchill, isn't it? And quite often people of your view say we should. Say we should be happy to say we should be honest and open about saying that Winston Churchill did good things but was a racist.
- [18:01]
Daniel Kebede
Yes.
- [18:02]
Nick Robinson
Is that your view?
- [18:02]
Daniel Kebede
So I think we should take a Wartnall view of Winston Churchill. I certainly recognise and understand why people hold him in such high regard as a world war leader. You know, Britain as we know it today would probably not be what it is had he not been the Prime Minister at that time. But we also have to recognize, I think that, you know, Winston Churchill also didn't do. Did some pretty bad things, whether it was towards Welsh miners or indeed elsewhere in the world.
- [18:34]
Nick Robinson
But was he a racist?
- [18:35]
Daniel Kebede
Well, I think, I think Britain in that time, in the early, early 1900s certainly had some problems.
- [18:46]
Nick Robinson
Let me put it gently to you that because you are, as I said, seen by a lot of people as a nice guy because you're quite softly spoken because you're on the telly here on the BBC, you choose your words carefully.
- [18:58]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [18:59]
Nick Robinson
When you're on the platform of rallies, you choose your words much less carefully. You're much more a firebrand, or at least you were before you became General Secretary. And it's what sometimes worries people about the national education.
- [19:11]
Daniel Kebede
But I think that's quite important, Nick, actually, that's an important point. I was a young man and I was a young left wing activist and I am not ashamed of it. And it's something that has shaped me as a person. I now represent half a million teachers and support staff and I take that role incredibly seriously. And I do choose my words very carefully.
- [19:34]
Nick Robinson
Interesting. So, on the big controversy of this week involving your union, which is the barring of a Jewish MP from visiting a local school in his own constituency, and he was barred by the local branch of your union, the neu, in cooperation with the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, simply, it seems, because he visited Israel and they judged him to be in support of policies they found disgusting. Do you, as the union leader, say, well, fair enough, I'm pro Palestinian, I've said quite strong things about Israel in my time. Or do you say, well, hold on, no, no local MP should be banned from a school.
- [20:13]
Daniel Kebede
So I want as many MPs to visit as many schools as possible at the moment because there's a real crisis in education in regards into this specific situation. You know, I heard about it last night as it was beginning to get reported in the press. It certainly wasn't a position of the National Union that, you know, this MP shouldn't. And my understanding of the situation is that there were some concerns raised to the rep, and of course there were some parents raising concerns also around the MPs attendance and that the school actually took it upon themselves to postpone that visit and it has been reinstated. Got to remember as well, Nick, you know, September, we were in the most fiercest part of the. The genocide that has been happening in Gaza that is internationally recognized and that feelings were running incredibly high.
- [21:06]
Nick Robinson
Well, the use of the word, as you know, is disputed, but let's not have that conversation here and now. I guess the issue is what a principle, though. Should local MPs, whatever their views, ever be barred from teachers from attending a school?
- [21:21]
Daniel Kebede
So I would like to see as many MPs attending school as possible. And actually I want my union to be a place and environment where as many people with as many differing views can participate fully.
- [21:38]
Nick Robinson
The Palestine Solidarity Campaign in Bristol said they'd sent a clear message. Politicians who openly support Israel's genocidal attacks, their words on Gaza are not welcome in our schools. I want to be clear, is someone who's Jewish. In this case, he's also deputy chair of the Labor Friends of Israel and he's been to Israel. Regardless of whether you agree with him, regardless of whether you think which I'm sure he'd deny that he supports genocide, a word most British Jews would argue with and certainly most Israelis. Is he nevertheless welcome in a school?
- [22:14]
Daniel Kebede
Absolutely. I think he should be in school and visiting schools and getting a deep understanding of the crisis in funding, crisis in workload that exists in education at the moment.
- [22:25]
Nick Robinson
So to be clear, you think that your Bristol branch got this one wrong?
- [22:28]
Daniel Kebede
Well, my, and my understanding is that, you know, they did not ban nor can, you know, a trade they call for abandoned.
- [22:36]
Nick Robinson
They said they protest. They'd say they'd wear the Palestinian headscarf, the kefir, if he came into the school. I mean, they accused him of being in favor of, of genocide. And they might have been inspired by you, Daniel Kebo, because you stood on a platform before you became General Secretary and you uttered the phrase, it's time to globalize the Intifada. And you all know there are many British Jews who regard the notion of globalizing an uprising against Israel has only one meaning. It must mean globalizing an uprising against Jews because Israel doesn't live in this country, but Jews do.
- [23:10]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [23:11]
Nick Robinson
And they think that's a call for action against them.
- [23:15]
Daniel Kebede
So on the school and the mp, it's right that that MP attends that school. And my understanding, and actually union groups cannot stop visits. That's just beyond their power. On the issue of what I said in, I think, was it 2019, 2021. 2021. Look, I gave a speech about how support for the Palestinians was actually, it was an anti racist struggle. This was at the time of the evictions in Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem. And there was a general strike at the time. And that was called in in the west bank and across Palestine. That was called the Unity Intifada. I certainly recognize now, as General Secretary of this union, I cannot, and I certainly will not use phrases like that.
- [24:11]
Nick Robinson
But is it because you've changed your mind or just because you need to choose your words more carefully?
- [24:15]
Daniel Kebede
Well, you know, I think one thing that does need to happen in society is that we inject much more empathy into our discourse. And I certainly appreciate and understand that if you are Jewish, you will feel October 7, you will feel what happened in Manchester or Bondi beach deeply and personally. And I am now a person of public significance and I, you know, never planned to become General Secretary of this union until quite, quite, quite late on. And what I say matters.
- [24:52]
Nick Robinson
And you're saying, don't bar Jewish members of Parliament or delay any other Jew from visiting a school, and don't use the phrase of globalising the intifada.
- [25:03]
Daniel Kebede
I certainly recognise why it is important that I speak with responsibility and with empathy.
- [25:13]
BBC Announcer
At the BBC, we go further so you see clearer With a subscription to BBC.com you get unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 24. 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries from less than a dollar a week for your first year. Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com. find out more@BBC.com unlimited.
- [25:46]
Nick Robinson
Well, that's clear. Let's go back then to why you did become General Secretary of the National Education Union. Daniel Kebaby. You said really you wanted to fight for your members on pay, on workload, on Ofsted, and we'll touch on them all. But let's start with an overview. First of all, you said in an interview in the education press just a couple of days ago, the Labour government is on a collision course with your union. Is that a polite way of saying strikes are probably coming?
- [26:18]
Daniel Kebede
Well, I was really hopeful that this government would deliver change. They promised to deliver change. And whilst I support the government and I certainly support the Secretary of State on what they've done on the issue of child poverty, removing the two child benefit cap, extending free school meals to those in receipt of universal credit. The real concern I've got is actually the material conditions. The daily grind for teachers, actually, and support staff is getting worse, not better. That's primarily been driven by a crisis in funding. So, you know, when the Labour government left office in 2010, we were spending in excess of 5% of GDP on education. We're now spending 3.9% of GDP on education. And I want this government to treat education like it's a national mission, like education, education, education, and put in that investment, because the material conditions of teachers absolutely do need to get better. And, you know, what does it look like on the ground at the moment? I knew a teacher who, and it's corrected now, but, you know, the toilet next to her had been broken for months and instead of walking across the big secondary school to use the other staff toilet, she just stopped drinking water in the day. I know teachers that are having an hour added onto their morning routine because. Because photocopiers are broken or they're having to negotiate with each other because they've spent their photocopying limit, so they're having to try and borrow some credit off of colleagues. You know, these things are making the working day miserable. There's also a huge crisis in pupil need at the moment.
- [27:56]
Nick Robinson
And let's come to people need in just a second, particularly the controversy about the funding of special educational needs. Here's the dilemma, isn't there? You're a trade union, you're reflecting what your members are saying to you. But you want pay to increase and you want it to increase in real terms.
- [28:11]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [28:12]
Nick Robinson
You want the workload not to increase at the time that ministers are saying, look, we want to expand what happens in our schools. You want better provision for people on special educational needs. And I'm sure Bridget Phillipson has said to you, the Education Secretary for England. If not, let me tell you what I think she'd say in private. We haven't got the money, Daniel, and in as much as we have some money, we need to prioritise, we need to choose what we spend it on. So can we agree we're not spending it on increasing teachers pay?
- [28:42]
Daniel Kebede
So I think if the government. Well, the government need to recognise there's a huge crisis. Whilst there's been some small improvement in recruitment, retention of teachers is incredibly poor. You know, we lose. Oh, God. I think it's over a third within five years at the moment. It's terrible. And we are hemorrhaging the experience of our classrooms, which is not going to improve outcomes for young people, which is something that we should all want to do.
- [29:09]
Nick Robinson
And government says it's put your pay up, there has been a real terms increase in your pay and even if you settle for what they're offering you at the moment, six and a half percent over the next three years, they say, look, over the five years of a Labour government, on the basis of the best guess of inflation, of course. No, nobody knows. But that's the only way you can do these things. You will have had, teachers will have had, your members will have had almost four and a half percent real terms pay increase over five years. That's as good as we can do, I think, is their message to you.
- [29:40]
Daniel Kebede
So I think there's been huge. Much, much. Well, I think the government are getting this absolutely wrong. You know, the pay awards that we've had in recent years have not outstripped inflation, particularly RPI, we've lost a fifth in real terms in terms of teacher pay since 2010. There does need to be a correction if we are going to meet our recruitment targets, but most importantly, retain teachers. But actually, what also this government needs to do is take seriously the issue of workload intensification, how intense the working day is for. For teachers, it's not just about hours, although the hours teachers are working in excess of 50 a week at the moment.
- [30:25]
Nick Robinson
So, to go back to where I began this section of our conversation, labour is on a collision course, to use your phrase. In other words, if they don't listen to you on these things, don't listen to your members. You think your members are going to vote for strikes and there'll be strikes, what, in the next few months?
- [30:41]
Daniel Kebede
So, Nick, I was a teacher in 2023 in that strike wave. That's when I was elected the last time we took national action. No teacher wants to take strike action and it's not something that they will do lightly. But I know that at the moment, teachers are going into school every day and they don't have enough resource to meet the needs of children. Their workloads are incredibly intense and they can't pay the bills. And whilst the conditions remain like that, unless the government recognises a crisis and deal with it, I can see no other option than industrial action this year.
- [31:14]
Nick Robinson
So people who looked at you and said, danu Kabelli sounds a bit different from the leaders of the BMA who are constantly going out on strike, one section or another. He hasn't had a strike under this Labour gun. They're fooling themselves. You are preparing for a strike. That's what's coming.
- [31:29]
Daniel Kebede
I would really like to avoid it, but it's coming. I would love to avoid it, but I think government need to make the right economic and political choices and invest in education. You know, to get us back to that 5% of GDP spending would require 20 billion pounds. Now, we're not asking for 20 billion pounds, but what we are asking for is a pay award that enables that teachers can meet the cost of living. I mean, you know, look at the cost of housing in London at the moment. You know, how can a teacher afford to live here? And you know, that is causing a huge problem with recruitment and retention and that in turn has a damaging impact on children's education. Imagine being that child doing GCSE maths who's had a revolving door of teachers or GCSE physics. You know, we all want children to flourish.
- [32:21]
Nick Robinson
The big problem facing The Education Secretary, and it's true of the Education Secretaries in all the nations of the UK is the cost of special educational needs. It has rocket. One estimate in England is that councils have a deficit of about £14 billion. Not now, but by 2028.
- [32:39]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [32:41]
Nick Robinson
Did your experience, either as a teacher or a child, actually give you some insight into how this bill can be cut and yet to make the provision that you think is needed for children who need special help?
- [32:55]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah. So I spent an awful lot of my career teaching in special education or needed. And I thoroughly. I just loved it. Actually. Every year, though, in my classroom, there was probably one child that I did think, well, actually, had that education system been more inclusive, had we had a more flexible curriculum, had there been smaller class sizes, I think would have managed in a mainstream provision. Probably one child in my class every year, I could identify. So I think that should be the aspiration of government. And I support the Secretary of State when she talks about wanting a more inclusive system. My concern is that they're going to try and do it on the cheap. Now, we do have a unique moment. There's a record low birth rate, a declining pupil role. We do have an opportunity to bring our class sizes down. At the minute, we've got a million children being taught in class sizes of 31 or more. If we brought those down to a level of 20, closer to a European average, we would be able to support in school many more children with additional leaves.
- [34:02]
Nick Robinson
What you're saying is, if the treasury is sitting there thinking, few fewer children, let's close some classrooms, let's close some schools, your message is don't, don't absolutely just have fewer kids in those schools. There's another tricky issue facing the Secretary of State for Education. It's this ferocious debate among some, at least, about the rights of trans people.
- [34:23]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [34:24]
Nick Robinson
And it's one that has caused trouble in your union, hasn't it? Because your National Executive doesn't much like the way this debate is moving, doesn't like the new ruling of the Supreme Court that it isn't enough for someone to call themselves a woman, to be treated as a woman for the sake of sport, for the sake of changing rooms, for the sake of bathrooms and toilets. It's not quite your view, is it? You've got a more nuanced view on this complicated issue.
- [34:55]
Daniel Kebede
The number one thing I do think about this very difficult issue is this is one area where we do need to inject a lot more empathy into the discourse. Trans people, gender, non conforming people have existed throughout human history. You know, this idea that you can sometimes hear in the public discourse, that it's, you know, like a contagion, it's made up, it's mental illness, it's just so, so wrong. I would like to see much greater empathy injected into the discussion on relating to.
- [35:29]
Nick Robinson
Does that include empathy for people who are so called gender critical? Because you tweeted, I stand with Kathleen Stock now, for people who know about this debate, they'll instantly know who she is, but a lot of people won't.
- [35:42]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [35:43]
Nick Robinson
An academic, a philosopher at Sussex University, who quit her job after being abused for challenging some of the arguments of the trans rights movement. In particular, she stood up for the idea that biological women should be able to say, we want safe spaces. We want safe spaces to get change, to play sport. We don't want roles that are being allocated to women to be taken by people who were born men. And you said you stood with her. So you want empathy with gender critical people too.
- [36:14]
Daniel Kebede
So my reason for taking that position was really clear at the time. There were protests against Kathleen Stock at the university. I want to see a left, indeed, a trade union movement and a society in which debate and discussion about difficult subjects and topics can be had in solidarity to some way. Because that's how you find a way through. That's how you find a consensus. We never find a consensus by trying to stamp that down.
- [36:49]
Nick Robinson
So shouting at people, protesting at people, try to drive them out their jobs.
- [36:54]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah, it was particularly the trying to get her driven out of her job, which I took offense to. Yeah.
- [37:03]
Nick Robinson
And it was fascinating hearing you describe your position and again and again on issues, saying, you know, I want to be empathetic, I want to be quieter about it, I want to talk. Is. It seems, as I read what you're saying, you're preparing for a blooming great fight with Nigel Farage.
- [37:18]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [37:18]
Nick Robinson
You've called reform a racist and far right party. You've called Nigel Farage a pound shop. Donald Trump. Why shouldn't you say, it's up to the public? They want to vote for him, they want to vote for his party to run councils or run countries or indeed eventually run the government of the uk. It's nothing to do with teachers, it's nothing to do with the union, it's to do with people making their choice.
- [37:42]
Daniel Kebede
So in regards to the labels of Farage, those were. Were debated by my conference. It was my conference that assigned those labels to Nigel Farage.
- [37:54]
Nick Robinson
Do you disagree with them?
- [37:55]
Daniel Kebede
I certainly think that Nigel Farage is A hard right populist. And I certainly do stand by my comments that he's a pound shop Donald Trump. Absolutely. I absolutely do stand by those comments. I think Nigel Farage would be a disaster for education. I think Nigel Farage will follow the same direction of travel as Donald Trump. He's pledging billions of pounds of spending cuts that will mean that will be hyper austerity in public services. He's got questionable positions on, indeed, the nhs. But actually, I'm worried about Nigel Farage and his direction of travel in regards to education, specifically, because. Because Elon Musk has aspirations for education that very greatly concern me.
- [38:45]
Nick Robinson
Aspirations of what sort?
- [38:47]
Daniel Kebede
So, you know, Elon Musk has gone on record and publicly stated that he views teaching as vaudeville, which is like an 18th century cabaret and, you know, compared to. And he wants to make it like Hollywood cinema, that you essentially roll out artificial intelligence en masse and do away with the, with the role of the teacher. And that would be, you know, really problematic because, of course, teaching is a relational experience. It's a relationship between pupil and teacher. It's not something that can be replicated by machine.
- [39:18]
Nick Robinson
But one argument that is used by people who have that view is that too often teachers are interested in indoctrination. That is indeed a word that Nigel Farage has used of you, of your union. Now, you in a sense have said, look, I don't want to shout people down, I want to have a conversation, I want to be grown up. But if you're saying to 20 odd percent, according to the current polling of the public who support Nigel Farage, and who knows, it might go up if it's not him, it may be the Conservatives. If you're saying to them, actually, your views are unacceptable, they are beyond the pale. They are something we need to teach children not to believe. Is it any wonder that they actually want to take you on, they want to defeat you?
- [40:02]
Daniel Kebede
Well, I mean, you know, teachers have a responsibility to be politically impartial. That's, you know, part of the teacher standards. Our union.
- [40:11]
Nick Robinson
Not, though, are they, in truth. I mean, the latest poll of your members showed that 37% of your members would vote for the Green Party. That is three times the number of the average citizen.
- [40:24]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah, I mean, every teacher has a right to vote and have a political view. They don't have the right to indoctrinate and nor do they. I think this is hyperbolic nonsense, largely from Nigel Farage around, you know, the NEU and the teaching profession. It's not unusual for, you know, People like Nigel Farage to attack teachers and education because we stand for things that, you know, they fundamentally dispute, disagree with. You know, wherever there has been hard right governments elected teachers and trade unions come under attack.
- [40:55]
Nick Robinson
So there's a warning not just to Bridget Phillipson, a possible strike action, but to Nigel Farage if his party gets into power locally or nationally, you're taking him on.
- [41:04]
Daniel Kebede
You know, I really hope that we don't have a reformed government in three or four years time. For that to happen, though, I think we need to see a radical change in direction from this government. We need to, to see investment in public services and we need to see people's lives improve materially.
- [41:21]
Nick Robinson
Why not quit the union meeting and become a politician?
- [41:24]
Daniel Kebede
I have never wanted to become a politician, Nick.
- [41:29]
Nick Robinson
Very political, my view. What's wrong with being a politician? My very strong view. If you're having to change your words because you say, well, look, I mustn't say this, I mustn't say that because of the role I've got in national life, why not just get out there like when you were a young man, get on the protests and say, look, this is what I do think.
- [41:46]
Daniel Kebede
So I love teaching and actually I was lucky enough to have some teachers who had a real positive influence on me as a young person. I love the profession and I love education. The way I think that we change things is actually not necessarily through electing nice politicians, but more through our collective endeavour together through trade unions. You know, unfortunately, Nick, in the last 40 years we've seen trade union membership decline quite significantly. And as we've seen that decline happen, we've seen people's living standards decline also. I think strong trade unions are important for a prosperous society and I'm incredibly proud to lead a union that I love and for a profession I deeply care about. And I just hope to make the improvements that education needs.
- [42:42]
Nick Robinson
You mentioned there were teachers who'd had, had made a real impression on you.
- [42:46]
Daniel Kebede
Yeah.
- [42:46]
Nick Robinson
Is there a favorite teacher? Daniel Kabir? You have one person who thinks, do.
- [42:52]
Daniel Kebede
You know there's a number. There are a number. And I couldn't possibly name them all, but I did have a. I had teachers in. I had a teacher of history who just was so nurturing and allowed real debate in the classroom. And they know who they are and they know that they're very special to me.
- [43:13]
Nick Robinson
Daniel Kebedy, thank you for joining me on political thinking.
- [43:17]
Daniel Kebede
Thank you.
- [43:18]
Nick Robinson
Daniel Kebedi is one of a new generation of trade union leaders proud to be called radical to be called left wing but softly spoken. Gone is the era of the Arthur Scargills and the Len McCluskeys, the fiery public orators. That doesn't mean, though, that this generation of trade union leaders are any more of a pushover. Thanks for listening to Political Thinking. The producers were Daniel Kramer and Flora Murray. The editor Giles Edwards. If you like this episode, you might like our episode with Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson from September at the Labour Party conference when she was running to be deputy Labour leader. You can find that along with hundreds more episodes in our back catalog on BBC Sounds, where you can also find Radical the podcast from my colleague Amal Rajan. This week AMOL is looking at the role oil plays in the economic and political predicaments that now confront the West. He's sitting down with Helen Thompson, professor of Political Economy at Cambridge University. They talk Trump, Venezuela, Greenland and the new era of great power politics. Till next time, thanks for listening.
- [44:32]
Alex von Tunzelman
Hello, Alex von Tunzelman here with a brand new series of history's heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including the little known story of a famous author caught up in a horrific accident when which would require all his courage.
- [44:49]
Nick Robinson
Dickens remained in the river helping the rescue, assisting the wounded. He didn't search out to be heroic. He didn't play on his heroism.
- [45:03]
Alex von Tunzelman
Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC Sounds.
- [45:08]
BBC Announcer
At the BBC we go further so you see clearer With a subscription to BBC.com, you get unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 24. 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries from less than a dollar a week for your first year. Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com find out more@BBC.com unlimited.