Trump's America: The Scott Perry One

Summary

Political Thinking with Nick Robinson

Episode: Trump's America: The Scott Perry One
Date: June 27, 2025
Guest: Congressman Scott Perry (R-PA), Former Chair of the Freedom Caucus

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Episode Overview

In this in-depth episode, Nick Robinson engages with Congressman Scott Perry, one of Donald Trump’s key allies in Congress and a leading figure in the Republican Party’s conservative faction. The conversation delves into Perry’s military background, the roots of his political philosophy, insight into Trump-era foreign and domestic decision-making, and Perry’s deeply personal views on American values, immigration, and polarisation. The episode maintains a reflective tone, focusing on what shapes Perry’s outlook rather than breaking news headlines.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Scott Perry’s Military Experience and Its Influence

• Military Wisdom and Uncertainty
  • Perry explains that "the enemy always gets a vote" in war, conceding that no matter how exhaustively plans are made, responses are unpredictable ([03:15]).
  • He supports Gen. Mattis’s view on the matter, though admits he’s not otherwise a fan.
    • Quote: “No matter how much you plan, no matter how much you consider... the enemy always gets a vote.” – Perry [03:15]
• Trump’s Decision-Making Style
  • Perry argues that Trump's unpredictable, very public rhetoric is intentional—serving to confuse adversaries, maintain the element of surprise, and frustrate both enemies and critics ([05:02]).
    • Quote: “He is kind of, as we would say, all over the highway. But I think there is a purpose to it.” – Perry [05:02]
  • He acknowledges some were hoping for Trump to fail, saying political division is so strong that “undoubtedly, yes,” some Americans wanted things to go wrong ([06:28]).

2. Reflection on the Iraq War and ‘Forever Wars’

• Personal Experience of Loss
  • Perry recalls his time commanding troops and attending funerals, stressing the lasting trauma and gravity of such decisions.
    • Quote: "It is the cost of freedom. It is the cost of security... It really colors your decision making. Is this a worthy cause? Is it worthy of the loss of life?” – Perry [09:30]
• Evaluation of Worth
  • When pressed, Perry admits frustration—not at the cause but the outcome: “President Obama essentially ceded the country and all our gains over to Iran.” He feels sacrifices were made void due to poor political follow-up ([10:45], [11:41]).
  • He laments that “not only did we not gain anything, our enemies actually gained from our presence there” ([11:41]).

3. Departure from the Army and the Issue of Military Values

• Why He Left
  • Perry says the army ceased to align with his values, particularly over enforcing gender reassignment policy. He frames ‘uniformity’ as critical to service, suggesting increasing diversity initiatives would “very much weaken” the force ([13:15]).
    • Quote: "If we're going to then change that to address everybody's individual desire, I felt that very much weakened what the military is about." – Perry [13:15]

4. Upbringing and Traditional American Values

• Growing Up in Poverty
  • Perry tells of his childhood without electricity or running water, and wearing only two pairs of pants per year ([16:05]). He sees his rise as evidence of America’s meritocracy.
    • Quote: “That's America. And I want that to remain for my children and everyone's children.” – Perry [16:05]
• Belief in Self-Reliance and Opportunity
  • Perry frames American decline as a matter of choice, not inevitability, and expresses nostalgia for “the values of the greatest generation”—a mix of traditional norms, economic self-reliance, and patriotism ([17:09]).

5. Immigration: Legal vs. Illegal

• Personal Heritage and Assimilation
  • He distinguishes between legal and illegal immigration, praising his Colombian ancestry and experience in immigrant neighborhoods but reiterating his mother’s insistence on learning English as the key to success ([18:57]).
    • Quote: “She knew that a common language is one of the things that binds a society... It binds them together.” – Perry [19:33]
• Political Dimensions of Immigration
  • He claims Democrats use immigration as a political tool: “This is a political enterprise for the purpose of securing the left’s victories in America, not American greatness” ([21:03]).

6. 2020 Election, “Election Denial,” and Conspiracy Theories

• Perspective on Election Legitimacy
  • Perry maintains there was never an evidentiary hearing for the 2020 election: “The evidence was never allowed to be presented” ([22:08]).
  • Asserts foreign interference (specifically by China) was a fact, not mere suspicion.
• Role in Overturn Efforts
  • Rejects characterisation that he tried to overturn the result; claims he was seeking the truth ([23:07]).
    • Quote: "Seeking that is not only my job, it is my duty." – Perry [23:07]
• The "Italian Satellites" Theory
  • Perry clarifies his position: he merely suggested the Italian government be asked about claims, not that he believed the theory ([24:16]).

7. The Freedom Caucus, Federal Spending, and Trump’s Agenda

• Big Spending and Political Compromise
  • Perry addresses criticism for voting for a large spending bill: “Politics is the art of the possible” ([25:46]).
  • Warns of debt and bankruptcy if current trends continue: “We continued unbridled to spend money that we don't have… It is unacceptable.” ([26:22])

8. American Division and the Future

• Continuing Polarisation
  • Perry does not expect political rancour to subside during Trump's presidency: “The hard left... simply can't countenance his presence or even his existence.” ([27:31])
  • Nevertheless, he insists on the need for mutual respect and civil dialogue:
    • Quote: “It is my job, it is my duty to listen to dissenting opinions... and to be respectful of them, even though I disagree” ([27:31]).

9. Message to the British Audience

• Understanding Transatlantic Uncertainty
  • Perry acknowledges British anxiety over America's changing stances: “I think we've become complacent about our relationship... about taking advantage of not only our freedom, but the countries that we have in this life that we have” ([29:39]).
  • He invokes Abraham Lincoln’s “more perfect union” remark, hoping both nations will strive for continual improvement.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump's Public Style:
  “The president... has to do that all in public. And one of his goals... is to deceive the enemy so that you have the element of surprise. And so I think the president does that very adroitly in public.” – Perry [05:02]
• On ‘Forever Wars’
  “For decades... the world has been apologizing and appeasing Iran while Iran has been playing for time and... building what is inarguably a nuclear weapons program meant to deliver that payload to Israel.” – Perry [08:25]
• On American Upbringing:
  “We had no running water. We had... an outhouse. It's very cold in the winters of Pennsylvania, you know, when you're going out in the morning to do your business.” – Perry [16:05]
• On Illegal vs. Legal Immigration:
  “If you're going to disrespect a country's laws by your first act, why would anybody believe that you're not going to continue to disrespect the other laws and the other provisions of that nation?” – Perry [20:08]
• On American Division:
  “Unfortunately, I think it's going to continue to be difficult to have a reasonable dialogue, even among neighbors and friends and family members that disagree.” – Perry [27:31]

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Key Timestamps of Important Segments

• Congressman Perry on military doctrine and unpredictability: [03:15]
• On Trump’s public decision-making: [05:02]
• Personal toll of combat and war: [09:30]
• Was it worth it – Iraq war and aftermath: [10:45]
• Why he left the military: [13:15]
• Growing up in poverty and American opportunity: [16:05]
• Views on immigration and assimilation: [18:57]
• Illegal immigration as political engineering: [21:03]
• Election 2020, fraud, and foreign interference claims: [22:08]
• Big spending and conservative compromise: [25:46]
• Prediction on continued division: [27:31]
• Message to the UK about US unpredictability: [29:39]

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Tone and Approach

Throughout the episode, the conversation is candid but respectful. Robinson gently challenges Perry, pressing for personal reflection and specifics while allowing Perry to articulate and defend his worldview. Perry’s responses are passionate, sometimes combative, but often rooted in personal narrative and a strong sense of duty and country.

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Summary

This episode serves as a revealing portrait of Scott Perry, providing listeners with a clear sense of how military service, personal hardship, and ideological commitment have shaped one of Trump’s most steadfast Congressional allies. Whether discussing geopolitics, the culture wars, or the American dream, Perry ties his positions back to formative experiences and a vision of national identity he feels is under siege. For anyone seeking to understand why MAGA politics resonate so strongly with some Americans—and why US politics remain so polarised—this episode offers compelling, first-person answers.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and welcome to Political Thinking. Is he the peacemaker or the man prepared to use America's military might in the way that none of his predecessors dared? The closest of Israel's allies? Or the man ready to tell her prime minister he doesn't know what the f he's doing? What Donald Trump says and does demands our attention once again and leaves friends and folk asking, what does the president really think? My guest on Political Thinking this week is one of President Trump's key friends in Congress. Congressman Scott Perry of Pennsylvania is a prominent member, a former chair of the Freedom Caucus, the most conservative faction in the House of Representatives, which argues that the way to make America great again is to have a much smaller government and return to more traditional values. A former brigadier general, a pilot who flew 44 combat missions in Iraq, he sits on the House Foreign Relations Committee and he backed the president's decision to bomb Iran, despite being, like Donald Trump, a critic of what some call forever wars. Now, my aim on this program on Political Thinking is to have a conversation which gives an insight into why people believe what they do, rather than yet another newsy interrogation. Congressman Perry, welcome to Political thinking from Washington, D.C. how nice to see you.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Very nice to see you. Thanks so much for the opportunity. I'm looking forward to a conversation that maybe isn't so newsy.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

We'll do our Best. Now, look, you're a veteran, as I said, of the armed forces. You served in the Iraq war. I wonder if now you're minded to pay attention to the words. Maybe the wisdom of someone in the armed forces was known as Mad Dog Mattis, a four star general. He went on to be Defence Secretary and he said famously, no war is over until the enemy thinks it's over. We may think it's over, but the enemy gets a vote. Did he have a point and has he got a point now?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Of course he has a point. That's one of the, that's one of the general precepts of military combat, military life. No matter how much you plan, no matter how much you consider, and the branches and sequels of events that you might consider, the enemy always gets a vote. And the enemy oftentimes doesn't do what you hope, certainly what you hope, but even what you think the enemy is going to do. And the enemy oftentimes or most times doesn't tell you what that's going to be. So I can't say I'm the biggest fan of General Mattis, but I do agree with that assessment.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

So do you think now we're in a ceasefire, we're in a pause, we don't know what we're in. We're waiting to see what Iran might do next?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Yeah, I think we're, I think we are in an official ceasefire, but it's more like a pause. And quite honestly, I think we're waiting to see what both Iran and Israel are going to do. And if you take it from Iran's viewpoint, they want to be the regional hegemon, they want to control the region and they feel like they have to have nuclear weapons to be bona fide and to attain their political and military and geographic regional goals.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

You're guessing what the Iranians might do, you're guessing what the Israelis do. The world is also guessing what Donald Trump might do because.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Right.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

The rhetoric in the lead up to this decision swung this way and that. Unlike, I suspect, your experience in the army, it was all done in public, it was all done on social media. Did you feel you knew what the President was going to do as an ally, a supporter of his, or were you guessing like everybody else, what's he going to do now?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

No, I think that we all have. If you're not in the inner circle, if you're not in the briefings at the White House, in the Situation Room, there's going to be a certain amount of guesswork, but knowing a little bit about the president. I also feel that while in the army or the military, you can have these discussions behind closed doors. And the. The information that gets out of the public is very scripted for a reason. It's very defined. It has a purpose and a goal. The president, of course, like you said, has to do that all in public. And one of his goals, or one of any goal as a commander is, is to. Is to deceive the enemy so that you have the element of surprise. And so I think the president does that very adroitly in public. And it's one of the things that frustrates our enemies, our allies and his critics, that he is kind of, as we would say, all over the highway. But I think there is a purpose to it. And quite honestly, our society has become so polarized that we seem to think that President Trump, because he is Donald Trump, shouldn't be afforded that opportunity to deceive the enemy so that we can complete the mission and return safely. And they would rather see him fail than be able to be successful, even if it means, you know, being more disciplined in his public messaging.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

That's fascinating. You think the divisions in American politics are such that there were some people hoping this all went wrong or still goes wrong?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Oh, undoubtedly. Undoubtedly, yes.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Do you think the leak is part of that? The leak that says that Iran still has a functioning nuclear program, that not much damage was done?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

It's absurd. Who are the eyes a battle damage assessment must be conducted before you can really make that assessment. And without, within hours. It was some kind of bona fide, you know, they haven't really gotten the job done. These people that are saying this absolutely have no actionable intelligence for which to base their opinion and assessment on. And so it's completely political. It's derived out of just political ideology and their disdain for President Trump.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Now, you were one of those who, despite maybe because of your military service, warned against forever wars, thought that Donald Trump shared that view with you. You'll know that he upset many people in the MAGA campaign, not least people like Steve Bannon and Tucker Carlson and others who thought, hold on, I thought this president didn't believe in war. I want to go to your military service and what you learned from your service in Iraq. Do you think your country's leadership, have you, if you like, learned from the mistakes of what you saw in Iraq?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

I've learned from the mistakes that our country has made in places like in Iraq or in Vietnam, where the mission continues to extend far beyond what its original intent was. And the. And success is not well defined. I support the President and, you know, I'm surprised and somewhat disappointed, I guess, in friends, because I think Steve Bannon is a friend, I think Tucker Carlson is a friend. Their view of what the President's actions were and their opinion on it. I think the President averted a greater conflict, a much greater conflict, and the world should be thanking him for it. And he did so at little expense of life, obviously, to the crews that conducted the military and the staff that conducted the mission. But quite honestly, in Iran itself, minimum loss of life. But we're talking about nuclear weapons in the hands of a terrorist state, and it's nothing more than that. And that's absolutely what it is. For decades upon decades, not only our country, but the world has been apologizing and appeasing Iran while Iran has been playing for time and, and building what is inarguably a nuclear weapons program meant to deliver that payload to Israel. United States Congressman Perry, of its adversaries.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

I want to turn to your experience of war. I mentioned in the introduction that you flew 44 combat missions in Iraq. You became a brigadier general. Tell us a bit about how it affected you. You must have seen the heartache, the grief, the loss of people who gave their lives in Iraq. How did it shape you and shape your view of the world?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Well, it's obviously our lives are very dear, and that is the cost of freedom. It is the cost of security. And you learn that firsthand, especially when those lives are in your hand. I not only got to fly, had the honor and the privilege of flying with the service members that I served with, but I commanded them as well. And I was going to be the person that would have to deliver the news to their family members had they not come home. And so it's a very personal level of involvement. And when you're on the policy side of it, you know, it really colors your decision making. Is this a worthy cause? Is it worthy of the loss of life? Is it. You know, unfortunately, many don't lose their life, but they come home forever changed. Is it worthy of that? And those are the things that you think about when you're making these decisions or seeing these decisions be made.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

When veterans say to you, as they must at reunions, maybe in your work in Congress, or when people who lost loved ones in Iraq say to you, was it worth it given what happened? What do you say?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Yeah, for me, obviously, this was worth it. I'm very frustrated about my time in Iraq, not because I don't think it was worth it. But at the end, President Obama essentially ceded the country and all our gains over to Iran, as Iraq is now a proxy of Iran. And I thought about those 4,500 lives lost. I thought about the funerals I attended, the crying faces that I saw, the memories of friends that I have. Same thing with Afghanistan. And that is very hurtful. It is very disappointing, and it is very discouraging. And that shapes your viewpoint of commanders.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Forgive me, pushing you, pushing you a little to be less political. What do you say to those people? They must look you in the eye and they must be haunted by this question. Yeah, was it worth it? Was it worth it?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

I do think it was worth it. But if for nothing else, for the person next to you, for the person that was depending on you to do your job so that they could live through their job and vice versa, was worth it for that. But I do feel like our political leadership, and I don't mean to get political, but it's just the reality of it. Our political leadership sacrificed all at the end, in the end, gave away all those sacrifices, all those lives lost, all those people that came home damaged forever for nothing. What did we get for it? Iraq is out there as a. And Afghanistan is complete loss. We. We have no intelligence gathering there. We. We handed every. It's. It's absolutely unconscionable. Now, not only did we not gain anything, our enemies actually gained from our presence there and now have one of the largest armies on the planet.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

I sense your fury. I want to turn more to domestic politics now. You left the army or left front line service in the army because you said it didn't reflect your values anymore. And I want to talk about what shapes the values, because as I said in the introduction, you and your allies in the Freedom Caucus are social conservatives. Want traditional values, also want a smaller government. I think you've got the US Constitution over your shoulder in your office there.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

I do have it in my pocket as well.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

You believe in the values of the Constitution. What did you mean that the army no longer had the values you believed in?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

I came up in the Army. It started out as a private, and it really molded to a great extent who I am. It's not just a place where you work. It becomes part of you and you part of it. You reflect it. It reflects you. And unfortunately for me, over time, the military changed and no longer reflected my core values. My last, one of my last assignments as a general officer was to enforce the gender reassignment policy. And the Army's a place. The military is a place where you take orders. And if you can't take orders, either defy those orders, which would be unbefitting of an officer, or it's your time to leave. And I decided that I could not execute that order, so it must be time for me to leave. And it didn't reflect who I am. For me, people join the military to serve a cause greater than themselves. And you give up many things in that circumstance. You don't get to wear your hair the way you want to. You don't get to sleep in. Every day you march the same way, you eat the same food as everybody else, and you. And you give up some of your freedoms to serve. And if we were going to then change that to address everybody's individual desire, I felt that very much weakened what the military is about. And the reason we call it the Uniform Services, understand uniform is short for uni, or one form. Well, if we're going to have many forms and they're going to be decided individual by individual, I thought that that was gonna be very corrosive to the force, and I couldn't support that. And I thought it was gonna be damaging and that leadership was gonna be unable to lead appropriately.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Is it also that you felt this was a betrayal of the people you grew up with, the sort of people you grew up with? Because reading your life story, it reminds me of the life story of the vice president. J.D. vance. You would be described in the United States as a right wing Republican, a tax cutter, a spending cutter above all. And yet you grew up with the sort of story that people would often associate with the left. A single mother, your father, had abandoned you in real poverty.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Yeah, I love that. I live in America, and America is supposed to. You're supposed to be able to succeed and better yourself based on your merit, based on your effort, not based on the color of your skin, your social status, or any of those things. And of course, I am the living example of that, in many ways paint.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

A picture for us. Congressman. What sort of life was it? How. How poor, if you don't mind me asking, were you?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Well, we didn't. Our house didn't have any electricity. We had no running water. We had. I think you would call it a privy. We called it an outhouse. It's very cold in the winters of Pennsylvania, you know, when you're going out in the morning to do your business. And, you know, but we loved each other and we had each other, and that was what was. That's what mattered. And we lived in. And you could go from a situation where you got two pair of pants to wear every year. That was your kind of allotment. That's what we could afford to working in and being elected to the most important deliberative body on the planet. That's America. And I want that to remain for my children and everyone's children. And I want to see that expand around the globe. And I feel that that is under assault.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Under assault by whom or by what cause? You've talked, haven't you, of restoring the values of the greatest generation? There's a right. Is it fair to say there's a nostalgia in your view that you want to get back to what you think America was? That's what you mean by maga?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Well, to a certain extent, yeah. America has been great. And I feel like many people, even President Obama described it as America in decline. But it doesn't have to be in decline. Those are choices that we're making that we don't have to make. One of the greatest. I'll just give you one example. America is great because we have an abundance of energy, yet we're choosing right now. We're. Right now we're in Washington, D.C. in one of the hottest times of the year, and our power grid is strained to its limits, not because we can't produce and distribute power in America, but we're choosing lesser options of lesser reliability and more expense because we're choosing that.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

But what about more social values? Because my sense when you talk about the values of the greatest generation is that you. You fear that America is being undermined. You've been very critical of immigration, haven't you? You've talked about the danger.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

I'm critical of illegal immigration. Understand I'm the product of legal immigration. My great grandmother and grandmother's name are on the wall at Ellis Island. They came legally through a process. And America is built with immigrants that became Americans, not people that came to America to enjoy and steal from the largesse of the people that made this country, made it great and work hard every day to keep it great. And I'm affronted and offended for the sake of my family who came here with only the shirts on their back and worked hard to be part of America and become Americans. My mother's parents come here and want to take advantage of America.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Your mother's parents were Colombian. Did you have any Colombian upbringing? Was it a part of your culture?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Language, music, food.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Yes. Yes, all of that. Yes. And we lived. When we lived in Florida we lived in a Cuban neighborhood. It was all very familiar to me. My mother spoke Spanish. She didn't speak us, teach us Spanish because she said, you live in America, you're gonna speak English. Because she knew that was the path to success. And she knew that a common language is one of the things that binds a society and shared success and shared struggle. It's one of those things that binds different people from different cultures in different worlds. It binds them together.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

But are you really saying that immigrants now don't behave that way, don't want to be that way? Because you said something the other day and in the House of Representatives, for many Americans, what seems to be happening is that we're replacing native born Americans to permanently transform the political landscape of this very nation. Isn't a Colombian who gets over the border even though it's illegal, driven by exactly the same values, exactly the same ambition for their family that your mother's family were driven by? They just want a better life.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

I acknowledge that and I agree with that. Of course everybody in the world wants a better life and we all want to help. But there's a process. And if you're going to disrespect a country's laws by your first act, why would anybody believe that you're not going to continue to disrespect the other laws and the other provisions of that nation? Hard fought, hard earned every single day, not only by the people that shed their blood, by the people, but by the people that get up every morning and work so that they can provide for their family, but also pay the taxes that pay for these people that came here illegally to be housed. To be sure.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

But you seem to be saying something rather more than that, Congressman. You seem to be suggesting that somehow they're undermining these immigrants. They're undermining the culture, the values, the democracy even of the United States. Is that your fear?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

What I'm saying is that the political enterprise, and that would be the left and the Democrat Party in particular here, doesn't have a view to bring them in because they seek a better life. They have a view to bring them in because they want to change the political landscape here. They can't win on their ideas talking to people that are in America who have suffered these ideas. So they bring in another cadre of individuals who are dependent upon these social systems who will vote for them. And that's what I'm saying. This is a political enterprise for the purpose of securing the left's victories in America, not American greatness.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

People will hear your passion, your anger, really, at the way you think that the United States is being undermined. Does that explain your fear, if you like your anger, why you became convinced that the Democrats had stolen the election back in 2020, and you still think it, you still think that they, well, actually stole the election from Donald Trump.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

We can't really be convinced because we've never gotten the evidence, the evidence. There's never been an evidentiary hearing regarding the 2020 election. The evidence was never allowed to be presented. And now, years on, most of that evidence has been destroyed. However, I think it's reasonable to question things that were questionable that occurred. And I did do that on the floor of the House of Representatives. And just this week, the director of the FBI informed us that Chinese, that China, the Communist Party of China, sought to influence that election by flooding the electoral market, so to speak, with thousands of Chinese false identifications for the purpose of voting. And so I think it's reasonable to question these things that are not questions of fact. These things are fact.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

As you know. You did a lot.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

What was the result?

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Forgive me, you did a lot more than question, didn't you? Spent a month trying to help Donald Trump to overturn the result by getting rid of the Attorney General, for example.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Hold on a second, hold on a second. I want to. Because that's how the media always characterizes it. I spent a month, yes, seeking the truth. We don't know what the outcome of finding the truth was going to be, but we were not allowed to find the truth. And I reject the opinion that or the characterization that you make that was anything other than that America based, American government is based on truth and transparency. And so seeking that is not only my job, it is my duty.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Do you accept that for some looking outside into the United States, that they heard some of the theories that were put about at the time? You talked at one stage about an Italian company conspiring with MI6 here in Britain and the CIA to use satellites to change the votes. Back in 2020, you said the Brits are quarterbacking this operation. I mean this respectfully, but there'll be plenty of people listening to this who say this is some cookie crazy conspiracy theory. You know, does he really think that stuff?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

So here's what I said, so I can just correct and clarify the record. This theory was proposed to a number of individuals. And my response was, why don't we just ask the Italian government? That seems to be a reasonable response to a theory that's proposed to someone like me in my position yet for saying, why don't we just ask the Italian government now suddenly I'm involved in the conspiracy. And by the way, as far as I know, we never asked the Italian government. We never got any more information on it and we moved on. But that thing has somehow been kept alive as some conspiracy. And almost to the point that they people act like I came up with the conspiracy.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Got it.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

I just said, why don't we just ask the people that are involved in this and find out from them you.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Chaired the Freedom Caucus. It won't need explaining to people in the United States what that is. But for our audience, you know, small state conservatives, people who are particularly anxious about the size of the state, and this really matters now, doesn't it? Because Elon Musk the other day when he quit working alongside Donald Trump, attacked the president's big beautiful bill, that's what he calls it, bbb, as a massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill, which was. He didn't mince his words, did he? A disgusting abomination. But you voted for it. And you're supposed to be against all of this stuff, aren't you?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Well, we got politics is the art of the possible. We took it to the very limit as far as we could and we knew we would have another crack at it in the Senate. And we still have another vote yet to come, which we are, you know, we're waiting to see what the bill looks like. So it could improve. It could not improve. So part of this is getting what you can where you can and then, and then providing the opportunity for improvement or saying no when you disapprove, but.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

You fear it might if done badly. Do you fear that this could be, of course, way of ramping up the debt and bankrupting the United States?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Absolutely. And I reserve the right to vote no because I am concerned about the bankrupting of America. We continued unbridled to spend money that we don't have. As you know, we fought a war over taxes, about 3% as I recall. And now we're spending to the tune of, you know, $2 trillion a year more than the revenue that the federal government takes in is not only bankrupting America, but it is bankrupting its people. And it is unacceptable.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Now, we could have this conversation for another half hour, but we don't have time. I think it would be interesting for our audience just to reflect on why a guy who seems a nice guy who dragged himself through poverty to serve his nation both in public service and in the armed forces, feels as enraged about the way the country is going as. As you do, do you fear that we are in for more years of division in which Americans don't recognize each other, don't listen to each other, don't respect each other, and that it's impossible to have the sort of dialogue that you and I have had for, what, half an hour or so?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Yeah. I don't think that circumstance of inflamed tensions between political factions in America is going to subside anytime soon. Certainly not while Donald Trump is in office. The hard left in our country simply can't countenance his presence or even his existence. And I don't need to walk you through everything they put him through in his road to the presidency and just general life. And so, unfortunately, I think it's going to continue to be difficult to have a reasonable dialogue, even among neighbors and friends and family members that disagree. But as. Even as that is the case, it is my job, it is my duty to listen to dissenting opinions, opinions different than mine, wholly different, and to be respectful of them, even though I disagree. And it's also my job to state my position respectfully and to state why. And I'm going to continue to do that. And I hope everybody does that, and that we might disagree, that we all recognize each other as Americans, as human beings, as people that we can respect, even though we differ and go out and have a glass of tea together or, you know, a mug of beer and enjoy the blessings that God has given us.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

A last question then, for you, speaking, if you would, directly to a British audience.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Do you understand how much change Brits are living through as they look at your country?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

You've served in the armed forces since, what, Jimmy Carter's day? And whether it was Carter or Bush or Clinton or Bush Jr. Or, we kind of pretty much knew where we stood in this country. We knew where we stood on NATO. We knew where we stood on defense. We knew where we stood on free trade with the United States. We knew where we stood on democracy and respect for it. Do you understand why people looking in at your country find that every morning when they wake up, they think, good God, what's he done now?

[Congressman Scott Perry]

I think we have become complacent in America and maybe around the world. Maybe in Britain, too. I don't know. So I'm not going to speak for our great friends across the ocean, but I think we've become complacent about our relationship, about taking advantage of one another, about taking advantage of not only our freedom, but the countries that we have in this life that we have. And I think it's high time and it's good news that we have a wake up call about how dear this freedom is, this life is, how dear it is that we have these places to exist and how they were formed and the sacrifices that they were made to make them what they are and that we hold those things dear and preserve them and work to preserve them and that that doesn't happen on its own. Somebody must work at that. And as you know, we like to say that we're trying to create a more perfect union. That's Abraham Lincoln. And so we're always seeking perfection. And this is more seeking that perfection. And I hope that Great Britain and its wonderful citizens, its great ally of the United States of America, will join us in that.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

Congressman Scott Perry of Pennsylvania, thank you very much for joining me on Political Thinking.

[Congressman Scott Perry]

Thank you, sir. God bless you.

[Podcast Host (Political Thinking)]

The reason we created Political Thinking was to try to understand what shapes the views of people who shape our lives. What I found fascinating, listening to someone who is seen on the right in American politics, an election denier in 2020, a hardliner when it comes to spending and debt, an arch critic when it comes to what he sees as woke issues. I think listening to Congressman Perry describe his life in poverty, the values he believed in that were shared by his parents and his grandparents and his service in the army, you should, I hope, have a better sense of what makes some people believe that Donald Trump really will make America great again. Thanks for listening to this episode of Political Thinking. Don't forget to subscribe on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week. The producer is Daniel Kramer. The editor is Giles Edwards. And Sound this week, Jed Sudlow.

[BBC Announcer]

Hi, I'm Henry Zephyrman and I'm just jumping on the end of this episode of Political Thinking to tell you about my documentary from BBC Radio 4, Starmer's Stormy Year. I've been talking to insiders about Keir Starmer's historic victory and his first turbulent months as Labour prime Minister. Why did the government have such a short political honeymoon? Has it begun to turn things around? And what is Keir Starmer really about? That's Starmer's Stormy Year with me, Henry Zeffman. Listen only on BBC Sounds.