Political Thinking with Nick Robinson

Episode: Trump's America: The Scott Perry One
Date: June 27, 2025
Guest: Congressman Scott Perry (R-PA), Former Chair of the Freedom Caucus

Episode Overview

In this in-depth episode, Nick Robinson engages with Congressman Scott Perry, one of Donald Trump’s key allies in Congress and a leading figure in the Republican Party’s conservative faction. The conversation delves into Perry’s military background, the roots of his political philosophy, insight into Trump-era foreign and domestic decision-making, and Perry’s deeply personal views on American values, immigration, and polarisation. The episode maintains a reflective tone, focusing on what shapes Perry’s outlook rather than breaking news headlines.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Scott Perry’s Military Experience and Its Influence

• Military Wisdom and Uncertainty
  • Perry explains that "the enemy always gets a vote" in war, conceding that no matter how exhaustively plans are made, responses are unpredictable ([03:15]).
  • He supports Gen. Mattis’s view on the matter, though admits he’s not otherwise a fan.
    • Quote: “No matter how much you plan, no matter how much you consider... the enemy always gets a vote.” – Perry [03:15]
• Trump’s Decision-Making Style
  • Perry argues that Trump's unpredictable, very public rhetoric is intentional—serving to confuse adversaries, maintain the element of surprise, and frustrate both enemies and critics ([05:02]).
    • Quote: “He is kind of, as we would say, all over the highway. But I think there is a purpose to it.” – Perry [05:02]
  • He acknowledges some were hoping for Trump to fail, saying political division is so strong that “undoubtedly, yes,” some Americans wanted things to go wrong ([06:28]).

2. Reflection on the Iraq War and ‘Forever Wars’

• Personal Experience of Loss
  • Perry recalls his time commanding troops and attending funerals, stressing the lasting trauma and gravity of such decisions.
    • Quote: "It is the cost of freedom. It is the cost of security... It really colors your decision making. Is this a worthy cause? Is it worthy of the loss of life?” – Perry [09:30]
• Evaluation of Worth
  • When pressed, Perry admits frustration—not at the cause but the outcome: “President Obama essentially ceded the country and all our gains over to Iran.” He feels sacrifices were made void due to poor political follow-up ([10:45], [11:41]).
  • He laments that “not only did we not gain anything, our enemies actually gained from our presence there” ([11:41]).

3. Departure from the Army and the Issue of Military Values

• Why He Left
  • Perry says the army ceased to align with his values, particularly over enforcing gender reassignment policy. He frames ‘uniformity’ as critical to service, suggesting increasing diversity initiatives would “very much weaken” the force ([13:15]).
    • Quote: "If we're going to then change that to address everybody's individual desire, I felt that very much weakened what the military is about." – Perry [13:15]

4. Upbringing and Traditional American Values

• Growing Up in Poverty
  • Perry tells of his childhood without electricity or running water, and wearing only two pairs of pants per year ([16:05]). He sees his rise as evidence of America’s meritocracy.
    • Quote: “That's America. And I want that to remain for my children and everyone's children.” – Perry [16:05]
• Belief in Self-Reliance and Opportunity
  • Perry frames American decline as a matter of choice, not inevitability, and expresses nostalgia for “the values of the greatest generation”—a mix of traditional norms, economic self-reliance, and patriotism ([17:09]).

5. Immigration: Legal vs. Illegal

• Personal Heritage and Assimilation
  • He distinguishes between legal and illegal immigration, praising his Colombian ancestry and experience in immigrant neighborhoods but reiterating his mother’s insistence on learning English as the key to success ([18:57]).
    • Quote: “She knew that a common language is one of the things that binds a society... It binds them together.” – Perry [19:33]
• Political Dimensions of Immigration
  • He claims Democrats use immigration as a political tool: “This is a political enterprise for the purpose of securing the left’s victories in America, not American greatness” ([21:03]).

6. 2020 Election, “Election Denial,” and Conspiracy Theories

• Perspective on Election Legitimacy
  • Perry maintains there was never an evidentiary hearing for the 2020 election: “The evidence was never allowed to be presented” ([22:08]).
  • Asserts foreign interference (specifically by China) was a fact, not mere suspicion.
• Role in Overturn Efforts
  • Rejects characterisation that he tried to overturn the result; claims he was seeking the truth ([23:07]).
    • Quote: "Seeking that is not only my job, it is my duty." – Perry [23:07]
• The "Italian Satellites" Theory
  • Perry clarifies his position: he merely suggested the Italian government be asked about claims, not that he believed the theory ([24:16]).

7. The Freedom Caucus, Federal Spending, and Trump’s Agenda

• Big Spending and Political Compromise
  • Perry addresses criticism for voting for a large spending bill: “Politics is the art of the possible” ([25:46]).
  • Warns of debt and bankruptcy if current trends continue: “We continued unbridled to spend money that we don't have… It is unacceptable.” ([26:22])

8. American Division and the Future

• Continuing Polarisation
  • Perry does not expect political rancour to subside during Trump's presidency: “The hard left... simply can't countenance his presence or even his existence.” ([27:31])
  • Nevertheless, he insists on the need for mutual respect and civil dialogue:
    • Quote: “It is my job, it is my duty to listen to dissenting opinions... and to be respectful of them, even though I disagree” ([27:31]).

9. Message to the British Audience

• Understanding Transatlantic Uncertainty
  • Perry acknowledges British anxiety over America's changing stances: “I think we've become complacent about our relationship... about taking advantage of not only our freedom, but the countries that we have in this life that we have” ([29:39]).
  • He invokes Abraham Lincoln’s “more perfect union” remark, hoping both nations will strive for continual improvement.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump's Public Style:
  “The president... has to do that all in public. And one of his goals... is to deceive the enemy so that you have the element of surprise. And so I think the president does that very adroitly in public.” – Perry [05:02]
• On ‘Forever Wars’
  “For decades... the world has been apologizing and appeasing Iran while Iran has been playing for time and... building what is inarguably a nuclear weapons program meant to deliver that payload to Israel.” – Perry [08:25]
• On American Upbringing:
  “We had no running water. We had... an outhouse. It's very cold in the winters of Pennsylvania, you know, when you're going out in the morning to do your business.” – Perry [16:05]
• On Illegal vs. Legal Immigration:
  “If you're going to disrespect a country's laws by your first act, why would anybody believe that you're not going to continue to disrespect the other laws and the other provisions of that nation?” – Perry [20:08]
• On American Division:
  “Unfortunately, I think it's going to continue to be difficult to have a reasonable dialogue, even among neighbors and friends and family members that disagree.” – Perry [27:31]

Key Timestamps of Important Segments

• Congressman Perry on military doctrine and unpredictability: [03:15]
• On Trump’s public decision-making: [05:02]
• Personal toll of combat and war: [09:30]
• Was it worth it – Iraq war and aftermath: [10:45]
• Why he left the military: [13:15]
• Growing up in poverty and American opportunity: [16:05]
• Views on immigration and assimilation: [18:57]
• Illegal immigration as political engineering: [21:03]
• Election 2020, fraud, and foreign interference claims: [22:08]
• Big spending and conservative compromise: [25:46]
• Prediction on continued division: [27:31]
• Message to the UK about US unpredictability: [29:39]

Tone and Approach

Throughout the episode, the conversation is candid but respectful. Robinson gently challenges Perry, pressing for personal reflection and specifics while allowing Perry to articulate and defend his worldview. Perry’s responses are passionate, sometimes combative, but often rooted in personal narrative and a strong sense of duty and country.

Summary

This episode serves as a revealing portrait of Scott Perry, providing listeners with a clear sense of how military service, personal hardship, and ideological commitment have shaped one of Trump’s most steadfast Congressional allies. Whether discussing geopolitics, the culture wars, or the American dream, Perry ties his positions back to formative experiences and a vision of national identity he feels is under siege. For anyone seeking to understand why MAGA politics resonate so strongly with some Americans—and why US politics remain so polarised—this episode offers compelling, first-person answers.