← Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
'We cannot have chaos': Emily Thornberry on the law of war and Labour's struggles
00:41:53
The Foreign Affairs Committee Chair on Iran, Trump & the grief of being dropped by Starmer
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- [00:00]
Nick Robinson
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- [01:05]
Dame Emily Thornberry
You can't just say, I don't like you as a country. I'm going to bomb you. You can't do that. It's not the way it is. That's the law of the jungle. We cannot have chaos. The weak are the ones who who suffer the most when there's chaos.
- [01:17]
Nick Robinson
That was my guest on Political Thinking this week, the influential chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee in the House of Commons, Dame Emily Thornbery, Labour mp, former Shadow Foreign Secretary, One of those who's cheering Keir Starmer on as he appears to be ready to stand up a little bit, at least to Donald Trump. She said many years ago that President Trump was, and I quote, an asteroid of awfulness. Dame Emily Thornery, welcome to Political Thinking.
- [01:46]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Can I say I was completely wrong to call him an asteroid of awfulness? Because asteroids only hit the world once
- [01:55]
Nick Robinson
and do you think he's doing it again and again?
- [01:58]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Sorry.
- [02:02]
Nick Robinson
It's okay. This is the great moment we're in though, isn't it, where people have to choose what they say about Trump, what they want to say, what they really think and what they do say. Do you think we'll look back at this week and think this was Keir Starmer's love actually moment, the moment he actually found the courage to stand up to the US President?
- [02:26]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I don't think that he hasn't stood up to the American President, as you put it, because of a lack of courage. I think that a calculation was made that it was in Britain's interests to be close to the United States and the new president in particular, because of the need for a trade deal, particularly since we're out of the European Union, and because we needed the Americans to give us support in our fight in Ukraine. And I think both of those things were the reason that we needed someone to be a Trump whisperer. And much to everybody's surprise, because they're such different characters, actually, there was a chemistry and they do seem to get on. But, you know, Donald Trump has a way of expressing himself when he's cross, which is not exactly diplomatic and many people get it in the neck. And what did you think when you
- [03:18]
Nick Robinson
heard him saying he's no Churchill?
- [03:21]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I thought, I wonder what Winston Churchill would make of Donald Trump. To be honest, what I would give for sitting down and having a glass of Armenian brandy with Churchill and asking him, because, you know, obviously Donald Trump's no Franklin Roosevelt and a very different type of character and not the sort of person who necessarily was prominent in politics during the Second World War. So it will be very interesting to see. There has been so much change. But I just think, you know, when he gets like that, you have to stand up to him. I mean, you just can't. You can't be treated like that. You have to stand up to someone. And Kira's been right to not. He stood up to him when it came to Greenland, when it came to the insult to our forces. And now. So actually, it has been building up. It wasn't just a suddenly flipping to. I'm going to say that the president is wrong because he said the president is wrong a few times. You know, we've been building up to this.
- [04:17]
Nick Robinson
Now, no one expects Keir Starmer to start talking like Donald Trump or indeed Emily Thornbury calling Donald Trump an asteroid of awfulness. But he's very loyally still, isn't it? As people listen to the Prime Minister say, look, on the one hand, we can take part in defensive actions against Iran, but we can't take part in offensive actions. It's not very clear to people, is it what the government's policy is.
- [04:42]
Dame Emily Thornberry
It is difficult because as far as I can see, what happens is that the Americans ask to use the bases. It's thought about it said, no, you can't, because the way that we do things in Britain is you. It has to be in Britain's interest. We have to have a plan and it has to be legal. And we don't think it fits any of those. But particularly we don't think it's legal because we don't think that you can just attack another country. It has to be in self defense.
- [05:08]
Nick Robinson
But you've just said it very clearly. The Prime Minister's never said that.
- [05:12]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I think he got pretty close into that chamber, actually. I think he got pretty close to it in the chamber. And then, and then what happens, I think is that the Americans come back a couple of days later and go, but you know what you were saying about defense, I mean, that's what I think has happened. And, and you think, well, actually, yeah, I mean if you're going to use the bases in order to defend the Gulf and look what, you know, look what Iran is doing. They're sending, you know, missiles out willy nilly to everybody, including poor old Oman who've been doing everything they can to try to get some peace. They all, everybody's getting hit. These are our allies, we need to defend them. Can we use it, can we use as the basis for that? And you have to go, well, yeah, all right, you have to, yeah, you
- [05:51]
Nick Robinson
think in a way the Americans have got their own CLE lawyers who said, well, you were very precise in what you said you could and couldn't do.
- [05:57]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I wouldn't put it like that. What I would say is that they came to an understanding. And it's a long, you know, I mean, we work with the Americans. No matter who the President is, there is a closeness when it comes to defense and intelligence. And I've seen it in action. I've seen, you know, seen people at dinners from the American side, from the British side, you know, meeting one another like old friends. It doesn't matter who the leader is. There's still this closeness and this trust.
- [06:21]
Nick Robinson
I think there are people listening, watching who will still think. Emily Thornberry has been clearer in the last three minutes than the Prime Minister has been all week. The Times sketch writer mocked the Prime Minister for having a policy of yeah, but no but, yeah, but no but
- [06:37]
Dame Emily Thornberry
it's not clear to people it is the worst job in the world to be a Labour Prime Minister, second to, I think, being leader of the Opposition and Labour. I think that we have a media who absolutely delight in taking politicians to pieces, but particularly the leader of the Labour Party. I know people don't agree with me. I know that people think that the press is even handed, but they're not. And he gets a very hard time because of that. And you get a harder time if you're the leader. So it goes with the territory. I'm afraid it doesn't matter who we had as leader, they would have been taken to pieces by the media.
- [07:11]
Nick Robinson
Let's talk about what it means then rather than about, as it were, the communications of this. And we are talking on Wednesday afternoon. So we simply don't know what's happened in the hours and days before. People may be listening to this, but if, God help us, there were an attack on say the RAF base in Cyprus. Is your understanding that then we can attack Iran, we can bomb Iran, because that would be allowed under self defense. Are you clear about that?
- [07:40]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah, I mean, it's not, there's nothing magic about this. I mean, international law on this is a little bit like just the criminal law that we all know. You can't go around hitting people. You can defend yourself. If someone has hit you and you need to defend yourself or is about to and you can see them squaring up to you, you can hit them first. In those circumstances, it's really as simple as that. And that's the same translated into international law. You can't just say, I don't like you as a country, you know, I don't like the way that you behave. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to bomb you. You can't do that. It's not the way it is. That's the law of the jungle. But you can if you're, if you're defending yourself. And it is a legitimate, defending itself.
- [08:23]
Nick Robinson
Isn't there a moral problem though with that? I remember raising with you last time you were on political thinking way back in 2018, this issue of Iran, because Jeremy Corbyn, then your leader, had been on a march to celebrate the revolution in Iran, or so it seemed. And I put it to you that that was seen by many people as unacceptable. And you say we can't go around changing the policy from outside. Isn't there difficulty with that argument that in the years since Iran's murdered thousands of its own people, possibly tens of thousands, it has armed Hezbollah that fire rockets from the north into Israel. It has armed, organized and funded Hamas, who did the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust Inside Israel on October 7th. Isn't the danger of the approach you've got?
- [09:18]
Dame Emily Thornberry
No, no, no, it's done more than that.
- [09:19]
Nick Robinson
It's.
- [09:19]
Dame Emily Thornberry
It's also funded and armed the Houthis, Hezbollah. The Houthis, Hamas, and has been enriching uranium much more than it needs to, much more than is necessary for a nuclear plant, but not enough for a bomb, but nevertheless on the way. So I Mean, I do understand that it is a threat and that is why we have the jcpoa. That's why Obama and Britain and the rest of the west for years and years were involved in negotiations with Iran in order to get them to cut their nucle program for there to be people going in checking on it and with a threat of sanctions if they didn't do as had been agreed.
- [09:58]
Nick Robinson
But some people listening to you will say, well, given the long list that Emily Thornbury's given, it didn't take me to give it. Forget international law, it's meaningless. They say, look, Trump doesn't abide by international law. The Iranians don't abide by international law. Putin doesn't abide by international law. President Xi in China doesn't abide by international law. What is the meaning of this? Shouldn't we just do two things? What's moral and what's in Britain's interests.
- [10:23]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I think that it is in Britain's interest to be moral and to abide by international law. I'm sorry, I know now I sound like a lawyer, but I think we are. Yeah, and, and, but we are a middle ranking power. The reason why international law is the way that it is, it was largely written by British lawyers and it is in our interest for countries to abide by it. And we can't expect other countries to abide by it if we don't abide by it ourselves. And the way that you do it is you do it by agreement with other countries. And so if the United nations says that something has to happen and do it collectively, that's a different matter. But otherwise there is a duty on us not to go around attacking each other. Otherwise, I mean, let me put, you put the other side of it. Where's the end to it? I mean, so we get these big countries just whacking each other because they think they can get away with it and they don't care. And then what about the middle ranking countries? Why can't they do that? Where is the end to this? We cannot have chaos. The weak are the ones who, who suffer the most when there's chaos. I'm not saying that international law doesn't have flaws and I'm not saying that they can't be criticized. But what I am. Tell me something better. Tell me something better.
- [11:28]
Nick Robinson
But you see the German Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, I mean, he's not of the left, he is off the right. But in German politics that still means he's pretty centrist by our position. He said, now's not the time for the Europeans to lecture the United States and Israel about international law. And he effectively said all those things you said, the talks about nuclear policy, the JCPA and so on, none of it worked.
- [11:53]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Well, why didn't it work? Because Donald Trump got elected and didn't like a deal that Obama had signed. I mean, like, come on. That's why it happened.
- [12:00]
Nick Robinson
It didn't work because the Iranians ignored it.
- [12:02]
Dame Emily Thornberry
No, he tore it up and said that, you know, that he didn't like it, that it should have other things, it should have missiles in it, should have all sorts of things that hadn't been part of the original agreement. That's why he tore it up. Right. So it got torn up and then we had a period of chaos. And yes, you know, the Iranians then get sanctions against them, and the Iranians then clearly start developing their. Their nuclear weapons again. I mean, this is what happened. And we are on a slippery road whereby I. I suppose where we are now was kind of inevitable.
- [12:33]
Nick Robinson
Let's talk about where this comes from. Because on political thinking, we try to explore the background, the values of the people we talk to. In a sense, this belief in international institutions, this belief in the law goes through Emily Thornbury like a stick of rock, doesn't it? Your dad work for the un? You are a lawyer, you're married to a judge. Tell me a bit about your dad. I'm told you've got his peacekeeping helmet, his United nations peacekeeping helmet in your office.
- [13:02]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I mean, I think I tried to be fair on my father. He was a great man. He was a terrible father. I mean, he left me when I was 7, and then I went to live with him when I was 15. And when I was 17, he went to New York for the weekend, got a job with the un, didn't come back. Seriously, I'm one of the few people who've been left by their father twice. So. Yeah.
- [13:23]
Nick Robinson
Did he call and say, I'm not coming back?
- [13:25]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said, I've been given this fantastic job, Emily, don't worry, I'm paying for the house and you can use the car.
- [13:31]
Nick Robinson
Right. You're 17. Look after yourself.
- [13:33]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Look after yourself. I'm living in London. I mean, it was, you know. Yeah.
- [13:37]
Nick Robinson
Because he worked for, what, the UN's oldest Peacekeeper mission for a while.
- [13:40]
Dame Emily Thornberry
So he was. So he went in and he was. First of all, he was brought in because he had strong connections with an organization called swapo, which was the Southwest African People's Organization. He had strong connections with Namibia and with South Africa. And he had many friends there and real insight. And he first got involved with the UN because it was hoped that there was going to be a peacekeeping mission, go into southwest Africa as then and transform it. Things slipped and he ended up doing other peacekeeping work. But eventually, one of the greatest things he did was he was number two to the mission of Marty Artisari, who was the former president of Finland. And they brought peace to SWAPO to southwest Africa. And they had, I mean, they had Cubans on the northern border, they had South Africans on the southern border. They had all, you know, they had to negotiate with all these different powers. They had to get a constitution going, they had to get a state going. Nobody knows about it because it worked. There wasn't a problem. So that's why it was never really in the news. But it was a huge achievement and unfortunately, very proud of my father.
- [14:48]
Nick Robinson
And he worked in the Middle east as well.
- [14:49]
Dame Emily Thornberry
And he worked in the Middle east, and he. He was in Cyprus and he was in the UN for a bit, and he was also in former Yugoslavia.
- [14:58]
Nick Robinson
And did he talk to you about this, in other words, even though he was, for much of your life, an absent father, did he talk to you about the value of the things he believed in, of the un, of, if you like, international law?
- [15:12]
Dame Emily Thornberry
And I've got a stepmother as well, who was. Who was in unhcr, the High Commission for Refugees, and she also did. She worked for the United Nations Development Program. So she was also very steeped in UN values and internationalism and the importance of countries working together and. Yeah. And idealistic. I mean, they were. They were both. I mean, my stepmother's still alive, thank goodness, but they were both very idealistic, really believed in what they were doing, Very proud of what they were doing. Got knocked back a lot, but kind of kept going because of a fundamental belief that it didn't have to be like this. You know, we can make a better world.
- [15:50]
Nick Robinson
And when you hear Donald Trump say the United nations is empty words, and empty words don't solve wars.
- [15:58]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah.
- [15:59]
Nick Robinson
What do you think as chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee?
- [16:03]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I mean, I'm very sad to hear this, and I'm very sad to hear him say that he doesn't believe in international law and that the only thing that holds him back is his own conscience. I don't think that's the way that you want to have one of the most powerful people in the world behave. I. I believe very strongly that we are a. We're actually quite A small, crowded space and we have to be able to get on with each other, which means the world. The world, you know, it's a fragile place and the only way we're going to make progress is by doing it together.
- [16:32]
Nick Robinson
Now, the other thing I mentioned that shapes you is not just that heritage of international institutions, but a belief in the law.
- [16:40]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah.
- [16:41]
Nick Robinson
You were written off at school, weren't you?
- [16:43]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I was written off at school.
- [16:44]
Nick Robinson
You were told you'd be visiting prison, but not as a top lawyer.
- [16:47]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah, yeah. So my careers teacher. I asked my careers teacher one time what he thought I was going to do with my life and he said, you can always visit people in prison, which is what I did, but not in the way that he thought.
- [17:01]
Nick Robinson
You did as a barrister?
- [17:02]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah. So I became a lawyer. I went to the University of Kent and did a law degree and then bar school, where I met my husband and. And then I became a barrister and I was in the chambers of Mike Mansfield and I was. I was a barrister for 20 years. So I've done 20 years as a. As a lawyer, as a. And 20 years as an MP.
- [17:20]
Nick Robinson
So, like Keir Starmer, you're a human rights lawyer.
- [17:23]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah, I've known Keir since 1987.
- [17:25]
Nick Robinson
Like him, you're from North London. You represent Islington south in North London. Do you ever think when you look at the politics now, that what was your great achievement, defying what you were told you could achieve or how little you could achieve, has actually, in its own way, become a problem for the Labour Party? This, of course, it's an insult, you know, it's a caricature. But this suggestion that it's a party of North London, Islington types, he's from Hampstead rather than North London or Kentish Town, they're all the same to most people. Listening has become a problem.
- [17:58]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Well, we're both from Surrey. I come from a councillor station, Surrey, and he comes from a semi detached in Surrey. You know, people make so many assumptions. You know, they make assumptions about me. They hear my. They hear my voice and they think I must be dead posh.
- [18:13]
Nick Robinson
And because you had your voice trained, didn't you, when you were younger?
- [18:17]
Dame Emily Thornberry
No, I sang.
- [18:18]
Nick Robinson
Right.
- [18:18]
Dame Emily Thornberry
So I. That. That to that extent. Yeah. So I. I can project without knowing that I'm projecting sort of thing. I've never had a problem making myself hurt, let's put it that way.
- [18:27]
Nick Robinson
And you told me last time, you're on, you can take the girl out of the estate, but you can't take the estate out of the girl.
- [18:31]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Well, I think that's true, yeah.
- [18:34]
Nick Robinson
But it seems to me, speaking this week, when a plumber from Manchester with a voice very different from yours became the newest Member of Parliament in the House of Commons for the Greens, of course.
- [18:47]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah.
- [18:47]
Nick Robinson
Hannah Spencer, that there is a problem, isn't that, that she looks and sounds and has the heritage, if you like, that people used to associate with the Labour Party and now they don't.
- [18:59]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I mean, that sounds neat, but I don't think it necessarily holds water, if you don't mind me saying. I think there's something in the fact that that speech sounded like the speech of a Labour person, which is new for the Greens. I think this kind of understanding of class is something which is a kind of new preoccupation. And that's a challenge for us because we were, you know, we have been the party that understands about the importance of standing up for working class people. And we sometimes talk about it. Keir sometimes talks about, you know, having the most working class cabinet ever and talks about the background of all the people within the. Within the Cabinet that actually, there's an awful lot of people like me that are in the Cabinet we know, who haven't necessarily kind of just glided along, have actually had a fight to get to where we are, and that makes us the people that we are and gives us the understanding of politics that we have. But she spoke like a Labour MP and she spoke with real confidence and she spoke from the heart and that was. That has huge charisma and there is no reason why we shouldn't speak like that too, because that is who we are.
- [20:07]
Nick Robinson
But you've got to look at that new Green mp, Hannah Spencer, and think we need people like that, who sound like that and connect like that.
- [20:16]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I think what we need, I think we have the people. I think that we need to mean what we say and say what we mean and be confident in ourselves and like ourselves and not be self conscious.
- [20:29]
Nick Robinson
What you think the Labour Party's got to a stage where it. It sort of feels awkward about itself.
- [20:33]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I think that we have been trying to be something that we're not, and I don't think that we need to do that. I think that this was one of the things that, you know, has happened recently with Morgan McSweeney leaving. I think that he was trying to push us into a place that it didn't come naturally to us. And I think, therefore, people didn't follow their instincts so much.
- [20:56]
Nick Robinson
Give an example, because there'd be lots of people listening, who vaguely know that name. Morgan McSweeney, the former chief of staff who argued that Labour needed to hoover up another dreadful piece of jargon. Red wall voters, but traditional working class voters, largely in the north of England, sometimes in the Midlands. But is it the issues we're talking about or the tone of voice?
- [21:17]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I think it's, it's more than tone of voice, it's issues too. I think some of this social conservative conservatism that was being, that was being promoted did not come naturally to us. We are not a socially conservative party on issues like, oh, you know, like pulling our punches on. I think that some of the things, some of the way in which we have expressed. I, I dread even saying this because, you know, the moment you say it, you touch the green, green touch paper and all. But, but I think that we've ended up in the wrong place on trans. And we've done that by treading very self consciously and not actually following our hearts, which is that trans people are on the margins, they are vulnerable. If the Labour Party doesn't look after trans people, what are we about?
- [22:05]
Nick Robinson
Just standing up for their rights?
- [22:06]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah. And just looking after them. I mean, you know, they're most likely to get beaten up. They're the ones who are most likely to have prejudice against them. You know, seriously, we should, you know, we should not be indulging in anything that marginalizes them even more.
- [22:23]
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- [24:26]
Nick Robinson
And what about immigration? Because, you know, the Home Secretary says, yeah, look, labour values are the heart of her reforms. Yeah, that's what she argues. We have to be seen to bring her out. Order and control.
- [24:39]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yes.
- [24:40]
Nick Robinson
On the borders. Is that right? Or is there a danger that that's pandering?
- [24:43]
Dame Emily Thornberry
No, I think. No, no, I mean, listen, I think, I think that if you have any area of policy where everybody sees it, that you don't have any control over it, you know, and if it's an area that can change a country quite a lot and there's no control over it, then people feel anxious. And I understand that. And there's been so much publicity about the area of immigration and asylum that's not controlled the small boats that, that has got people very anxious. Even if it's only a tiny proportion of immigration, which in reality it is, nevertheless, it's been the thing which has been, you know, upsetting people and I understand why, because you don't want to have, you know, no control over a major change to your country. So then it's a question of how do you go about doing that? And you begin with that, which I agree with Shabana on. And I also agree that we must have an immigration policy, an asylum policy which is firm and fair and fast.
- [25:47]
Nick Robinson
But there's a.
- [25:48]
Dame Emily Thornberry
But it needs to be fair. It needs to be fair. So some of the changes I am concerned about. So, for example, I've had people come to see me recently who have come to the country, have applied, you know, for asylum, let's say, and then they apply for this next stage, which is like an interim stage between between applying for asylum and. And actually getting British citizenship, so called indefinitely to remain. And the changes are going to be. You've got to be in this country for much longer before you get any proper settled status. And they've already been here for years and some of the things that they'll be assessed on is. Have you gone on to benefits? Well, I've got a guy who came here, claimed asylum, then got cancer, couldn't work, applied for benefits. So he's going to have to wait even longer before he gets his citizenship. It's not fair. It's not fair. I'm not saying that we shouldn't look again at how long people need to wait before they get their settled status, but those who are already here, it's not fair.
- [26:46]
Nick Robinson
So don't come up with policies you think are unfair in order to try and win a party political argument.
- [26:50]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I think we need to. Yeah, we need to keep our feet on the ground.
- [26:54]
Nick Robinson
And is it a problem? Because Lucy Powell, the deputy leader, said the other day that some of the policies on migration are, and I quote, a real concern to our ethnic minority communities and came up on the doorstep in that by election recently.
- [27:06]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah, I mean, it's things like this. So if you've got a relative, friend, a neighbour, you know, who's going through all of this, you've got your neighbor who's got cancer, who's been here for years, you can see they're not being treated fairly, that there are these changes. And also, of course, the changes are not written out yet. They're still. People are just talking about them. So they get. I've had letters from people who've got completely the wrong end of the stick and it frightens them, you know, that we might be doing more than we actually are, because they also kind of half listen to the. What? You know, to the way people talk and they think and perhaps the rhetoric of those who are interpreting what Labour is doing and they get frightened. So you have to be really careful.
- [27:41]
Nick Robinson
And is it part of what's behind the Greens political success? It's only one poll, but there was a poll this week that showed the Greens were second, not to you, but to reform. Labour Party was in third nationally. And you could say that Jeremy Corbyn, who you served as Shadow Foreign Secretary, is pretty much the same coalition, isn't it? Urban, young, metropolitan, together with some in immigrant communities around the country. These are the people who are excited by Zach Polanski in the way that they were excited by Jeremy Corbyn.
- [28:15]
Dame Emily Thornberry
No, I think the coalition around Labour under Jeremy was pretty much broader than that. It was very large. Remember, I think more people voted in 2017, voted Labour, than in 24, when we. So, you know, our high watermark was 2017 and 2024. Actually, we got many fewer votes. It was just. It was at a different spread. So I don't think it's the same. I mean, obviously the. Some people are the same, but.
- [28:44]
Nick Robinson
But if you got to learn from that is, I suppose what I'm asking.
- [28:47]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I think. I think what we have to learn is that we are the coalition on the left. You know, if you're going to have a system that has first past the post, then what naturally comes from that is a coalition on the left and the coalition on the right. And if you want to keep a system that's first past the post, then you need to remember you're a coalition, treat people with a bit of respect and understanding, appreciate there'll be differences of view because you're the coalition on the left. But our strength is that we're the coalition on the left and we have a chance of getting into power. And you look at other countries that don't have coalitions on the left and it's very difficult for them to get power.
- [29:23]
Nick Robinson
You need to say, in other words, to green voters, not your backyard bunch of extremists, but you're welcome in our party. We'd like to have you.
- [29:32]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Well, what we should say is, look what we're doing. Look at all the things we're doing. We are leading. We are leading in Europe, we are leading in the world in terms of our, for example, our environmental policies. You should be with us. We're the party of the Greens, you know, we are the party of environmentalists. We are the party that takes seriously climate change and looking after the planet.
- [29:55]
Nick Robinson
Now you. I hesitate to say this because I don't want to embarrass you or indeed myself, but last time I introduced you on this podcast, I said something about you riding high. You just had a successful stand in at Prime Minister's questions, standing in for the opposition leader, and you were already being described as the next leader of the Labour Party. It's a harsh question, but what happened?
- [30:17]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Oh, don't ask me. Every few years, the Labour Party gives me a kicking. I mean, what can I do? But I'm still here.
- [30:26]
Nick Robinson
There's a story that was a bit of an accident in that book that's been written about Keir Starmer and Morgan McSweeney, that Keir Starmer really meant to give you a ministerial job, not in the Cabinet, but it sort of went wrong.
- [30:38]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I don't know. I. I honestly don't know. Nobody's ever explained anything to me, so I don't know.
- [30:43]
Nick Robinson
I've never had you sent a list of jobs that you'd be perfectly happy to have.
- [30:47]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I said. I said I would. Do you know, what do they want me to do? You know, if I wasn't going to be in the Cabinet, what do they want me to do?
- [30:53]
Nick Robinson
But it didn't work out.
- [30:54]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Nothing? No, nothing. So I stood for the chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee instead.
- [30:58]
Nick Robinson
Is that a better job? In the end?
- [30:59]
Dame Emily Thornberry
It's a fantastic job, being chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee. And what I'm about to say, I don't want to give any impression that it is anything other than that, and I am blessed to be doing it and I have a great committee and I hope that we do good work and we work really hard, but. But I have been in politics for 21 years and I would love to have the opportunity to actually do something. I think when you're chair of a committee, you influence those who can do things. And I haven't ever had the opportunity of being a minister, which is a shame. You know, I. I do. I mean, I've got over it, you know, when I didn't get a job, I was. I was terribly upset. It was like a kind of grief, you know, I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm enjoying it, but I can't in my heart of hearts, be honest and say, well, I never want to be a minister anyway. Because that's not true.
- [31:48]
Nick Robinson
Yeah. It'd still be nice.
- [31:50]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you, like you're in politics to do things, Right.
- [31:52]
Nick Robinson
Well, that committee that you do chair, the Foreign Affairs Committee, the House of Commons has just produced a report on a rather interesting subject, one very close to your heart, Europe. And your message appears to be, is this. Right, that. Look, you welcome the fact that Keir Starmer's taking a step towards Europe. You've said that already. But there's got to be more clarity, there's got to be more vision.
- [32:14]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah. And there's got to be more. I think we've got to be more ambitious. I quite understand how we've ended up getting here, you know, a year ago. It was only a year ago, if you just mention the word, you know, reset Europe, like, you know, half the newspapers would be calling us traitors because we were selling out to Europe. And half the Papers would be calling us traitors because we weren't going far enough. And there was like nothing could be done. And so they said, we want to reset their relationship with Europe, we want to be friends with Europe. And the papers all went crazy. The people, the public just shrugged and just went, yeah, go on then, get on with it. And I think, you know, the government took heart from that and has been getting increasingly ambitious. But we have to remember this, Nick, whilst we are all busy negotiating with ourselves as to what our position ought to be, we kind of forget we have to negotiate with the Europeans. They're the ones who actually we need to do the negotiations with. And so we are still going through this kind of like therapy nationally of trying to work out are we okay with asking for this, are we okay asking for that? And, and what happens is that we, then we can even say to the Europeans, you know, we think there's a war going on in Ukraine. We're taking a leading role in defending Europe. We're, we're involved in what's called the Jeff already. We've, you know, etc. Etc. We've got a very good.
- [33:33]
Nick Robinson
Jeff is the joint expeditionary.
- [33:34]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah, we've got a very good industrial base. When it comes to, comes to defense, you've got this fund of money you want to set up in order to buy and to develop defense away from the Americans. So you've got this, this fund. You know, we've, we've jumped through a couple of hoops. Can we be on, can we be part of safe? And they go, no, no. Which was what? Why not?
- [33:59]
Nick Robinson
Well, they wanted more money, didn't they? They wanted to charge us a price for being partners.
- [34:03]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I mean, I've been talking to many different countries, countries about it and they all shrug their shoulders, say, we don't know, Emily. We don't understand why it didn't happen. And of course, what you need is just one major France to say no and you end up getting excluded.
- [34:15]
Nick Robinson
But overall, you think the government should have the courage of its convictions, not do low key, low profile negotiations because those are taking place about student exchanges, for example, about the rules around food standards. All that stuff is taking place at the moment. I think there's a treaty due to happen in the next couple of months. You think you want something bigger and bolder?
- [34:35]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Well, no, what I'm saying is that I think we should have a long shopping list. I think that we should, we should. When we went into the election with just sort of four or five things and, and you know, and the Europeans were always clear about what they wanted. They've got, you know, if you look at what. What is it that we've actually achieved since we started these negotiations? They're all kind of still in process. We can't say we've been negotiating a year and we've got this now.
- [35:02]
Nick Robinson
And how do you get that to work with the strategy of needing to stay? And you've said it close enough to Trump that you've got a reasonable deal on tariffs, that he continues to contribute to the defence of Ukraine.
- [35:18]
Dame Emily Thornberry
That's hard, but it's not impossible. I mean, it's the place we've always been in. We've always been in, you know, halfway between America and Europe. That is kind of our character. I mean, we're Europeans, but we're also close to America.
- [35:31]
Nick Robinson
But is the way for Keir Starmer to go full Mark Cardi, as it were, like the Prime Minister of Canada who gave that very defiant speech at Davos? I'm not cheered by lots of people on the center left of politics. Finally, somebody stood up to a Trump. Or should Kirby himself go back low
- [35:47]
Dame Emily Thornberry
key, talking in these absolute terms? I mean, like, what did Mark Carney say once? Once there was the attack on Iran.
- [35:54]
Nick Robinson
He backed it.
- [35:55]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Exactly. So, you know, this is not quite as sort of black and white as you paint things. So, no, you have to have a nuanced position. But as I say, I think that we need to be clearer, more ambitious, go faster with Europe, because I think this is an opportunity for us to reset and it's important for our economy. We really want to grow our economy. Then, you know, our biggest trading partner is Europe. We need to make sure that we fix it. So that has to be done. And in relation to the United States, with or without a trade deal, they are our biggest trading partner as an individual country. We invest hugely in America. America invests hugely in the UK before we even had a treaty. And as for the American President, presidents come and presidents go. This one is one you have to stand up to, you know, when he's being impossible.
- [36:44]
Nick Robinson
There's another subject on the agenda for the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, the appointment of ambassadors following the scandal around Lord Mandelson at the time. Sorry to remind you this, you did describe the appointment of Peter Mandelson as U.S. ambassador as inspired.
- [37:02]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah.
- [37:02]
Nick Robinson
What do you think, looking back?
- [37:04]
Dame Emily Thornberry
So I. I did. And that was. I think it was two days after he was appointed. So at that point, I'm afraid we hadn't, you know, looked into anything and what we said was that it was a political appointment. And so as a political appointment, he should come before the Select Committee and we should then be able to ask him questions and think how much better it would have been if we'd been able to do that, because frankly, we would have Googled him and looked up, you know, the history and so on. I mean, for example, I genuinely did not know that he had stayed in Epstein's flat or house after, when Epstein was in jail. I mean, I have no problem with people standing by and I think they should stand by their friends when their friends are in trouble. But if their friends get convicted of a serious offense, that is a different matter. You don't stay in their house and you don't write what you did. So anyway, do you think it would
- [37:57]
Nick Robinson
have made a difference? Because the counter argument is, look, the emails that have been revealed have been published, were not out.
- [38:04]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yeah.
- [38:04]
Nick Robinson
You wouldn't have had access to them. You would have asked Peter Mandelson questions. He might have argued, as he does now. I can't remember what I wrote in an email many, many years ago. Or he might have lied.
- [38:16]
Dame Emily Thornberry
No, no, but you see, we would have been able to ask him questions like, you know, about the friendship with Epstein, about the staying in the flat, because that was in the. Because that was in the ft. So there was an article in the FT which, as I say, passed me by. But, you know, but if we had had him in front of us, we would have done the work. We would have then said, what is this friendship with Epstein? Why are you staying in his house once he's been convicted? And he would have answered and his answers would be in public and we would then know, do you know what I mean? And it would have been a way of holding him to account and there would be a series of questions that you could ask. So you can ask questions like, you know, the closeness in relation to other people, his behavior in relation to others. I'm quite sure there were people in the committee who would have been quite happy to ask questions like that. And there would be a way in which, as I say, I'm not saying that we would have stopped him being appointed to being ambassador, but it would have been able to put a proper context in and we wouldn't just be relying on. On others saying, well, we asked him this and he said that because there's no record of it, whereas this would have been on the record.
- [39:15]
Nick Robinson
You said something else intriguing in the House of Commons at that time, Peter Manelson replaced Karen Pierce.
- [39:20]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Yes.
- [39:20]
Nick Robinson
As ambassador. And you said a generation of senior, older women have been replaced by boys.
- [39:27]
Dame Emily Thornberry
It's true.
- [39:28]
Nick Robinson
Do you think there has been a kind of sexism, a clear out of women in senior diplomatic?
- [39:32]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I don't know if it's sexism or not, but, but of the, of the seven, the G7 countries, obviously we're one. So they, I think all six of them were women ambassadors and the representative at the United nations was also a woman. And now they're all men, apart from possibly one. And just that needs just pointing out and changing. Karen Pierce is the most, you know, is a very impressive woman. I'm a big fan of Karen Pierce's and I think, you know, she'd already, you know, started to develop a relationship with Trump and had been to Mar a lago and, you know, so if she couldn't do the job, that was unfortunate. And, you know, and therefore, that's why when I heard she wasn't going to do it and, and, and Mandelson was again, I thought, yeah, actually, I can see why people have thought this. You need to have something inspired. We've just had this man elected to be president. We didn't think it was going to happen. We have to try and think of an appropriate response. And I can see why the thought process as to why Peter Mandelson would be right.
- [40:30]
Nick Robinson
Sorry to keep reminding you of you, things you said in the past.
- [40:33]
Dame Emily Thornberry
It's fine.
- [40:34]
Nick Robinson
I asked you back in 2018, why has there been no woman leader of the Labour Party? And at the time, I asked you because people thought you might be there leader of the Labour Party, but there still hasn't been. Will there be?
- [40:47]
Dame Emily Thornberry
I know, I know. Well, look, I think, as I said at the time, and I still believe we have had a changes in the Labour Party that have come from the ground up and that means that it's a profound and lasting change. So it isn't just putting in a few women, women in a few places and, you know, so that it looks better and you look more modern as a party or anything like that. If you look at the groundswell, the members, the people who organise the local parties and then the councillors and then the members of Parliament and then the cabinet. There has been a wave going through the party, increasing numbers of women coming through and increasingly assertive. So it will come. It's taking far too long, but we're going to get there.
- [41:35]
Nick Robinson
I want to finally ask you about the language of politics, because it seems to me that one reason that the minor parties, as they used to be called are doing so well is they've got us, the head people who talk fluent human, they talk fluent social media. Sometimes they talk in ways that make people like you, maybe like me. With the backgrounds, we've had a bit uncomfortable. You were once called the Queen of Sass because you are a plain speaker. Do you think you've got to relearn the language?
- [42:13]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Well, I mean, as I said earlier, I think that it's important that we say what we mean and mean what we say. And it is hard when you are under the level of scrutiny because, you know, because in the end what happens is that people want their politicians to be human, but they also want us to be perfect. So if you ever misspeak Evans offend, you know, you'll never be forgiven if you get a sentence wrong in the wrong order, you know, or you're a bit too sarcastic about, or you can be misinterpreted. You know, there is. That's the, that's the High Wire act and we're too brutal and, and you can't be that brutal and then say, why are our politicians so boring?
- [42:55]
Nick Robinson
Emily Thornbury, thank you for joining me on Political Thinking.
- [42:58]
Dame Emily Thornberry
Thank you for having me.
- [42:59]
Nick Robinson
I don't know about you, but I thought, as I pointed out to her, that Emily Thornbury was rather better at explaining the Prime Minister's policy in the war in Iran than he was. She wants a job. I wonder if you might be tempted to consider giving her one. Thanks for listening to this episode of Political Thinking. The producers were Daniel Kramer and Flora Murray. The editor is Giles Edwards. If you haven't heard last week's episode, please do go back and listen. I spoke to the British Iranian comedian and actor Ahmed Jalili just hours before missiles started to hit Tehran. He helped us understand why there are so many in the Iranian diaspora who were calling for military action against the country and illustrated how complex and nuanced the debate is about what might happen next. Also, you should go and listen to Radical, the podcast from my colleague Amal Rajan, which you can also find on BBC Sounds. This week he sits down with Ed Davies, policy director at the right leaning anti poverty think tank, the Centre for Social justice, to unpack the decline of marriage and family stability in the uk. Ed argues that this shift is a common thread running through the country's challenges in education, welfare and mental health.
- [44:16]
Dame Emily Thornberry
If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft turns out to be flawed? In 1999, four apartment buildings were blown up in Russia. Hundreds killed but 25 years on, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories because these bombs, they're part of the origin story of one of the most powerful men in the world, Vladimir Putin. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss? First time Round the History Bureau Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen first on BBC Sounds.
- [45:06]
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