Why the PM has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer

Summary

Political Thinking with Nick Robinson
Episode: Why the Prime Minister has to go: Miatta Fahnbulleh on being the first minister to break with Starmer
Date: May 15, 2026
Guest: Miette von Buller (Labour MP, former minister, ex-civil servant, economist)
Host: Nick Robinson (BBC Radio 4)

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid conversation between Nick Robinson and Miette von Buller, the first minister to resign from Keir Starmer's Labour government following disastrous local election results. Von Buller, a former civil servant under Labour and Conservative governments, renowned economist, and influential Labour thinker, discusses her reasons for resignation, her critique of Starmer's leadership, and her vision for progressive politics. The discussion explores issues of government effectiveness, party vision, values, community cohesion, and the direction of Labour and wider British politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Decision to Resign ([02:13]–[03:36])

• Personal and Political Struggle:
  Von Buller describes the decision as "a tough, tough decision and it's a really personal one," emphasizing the difficulty of leaving a team and publicly criticizing the Prime Minister. She consulted closely with family and friends for support.

  "I didn't think I could look him in the eye, be part of that team if I didn't believe he was the right person to be leading that team." – Miette von Buller [03:26]

• Constituency Pressure:
  Her decision was heavily influenced by conversations with constituents in Peckham, who communicated a "really clear message" of disappointment and loss of confidence in leadership.

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2. On the Labour "Clobbering" and Voter Discontent ([03:51]–[06:17])

• Depths of Disappointment:
  Von Buller found her constituents’ anger deeper than expected and noted that blame was being unfairly concentrated on Starmer, compounded by dashed hopes after Labour’s election victory.

  "The scale and depths of anger, the breach of trust, the lack of confidence... I had conversation after conversation with people just saying, we will not support you unless there is that change." – Miette von Buller [04:53]

• Not 'Midterm Blues':
  She rejects the idea that Labour’s losses are typical midterm backlash, noting catastrophic losses in Wales and Scotland and expressing “terror” at the direction of politics, especially for progressive values.

  "It isn't just midterm blues. I think the stakes are too high. Our kind of politics is... at risk." – Miette von Buller [06:49]

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3. The Green Challenge and Labour's Mission ([07:08]–[08:41])

• The Rise of the Greens:
  Labour lost ground in local South London elections to the Greens, which hits personally, as Von Buller previously ran the New Economics Foundation (NEF), a think tank now echoed by Green messaging.

  "They are entering the space that I believe the Labour Party should be holding. This should be our analysis of the problems with the country." – Miette von Buller [07:50]

• Labour’s Historic Role:
  Despite sympathy for working with other progressives, she maintains her allegiance: "I'm Labour Party through and through... it is the Labour Party that has [delivered progressive change]." [08:16]

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4. Critique of Starmer and Government Delivery ([08:41]–[13:08])

• Vision, Pace, Ambition:
  Von Buller's resignation letter criticised the lack of "vision, pace and ambition". She draws parallels with similar criticisms from Wes Streeting, Health Secretary, who had just resigned.

  • Government is now “more treacle"; achieving real change is much harder due to bureaucracy. ([09:36])
  • Under previous governments (Blair, Brown, early Coalition) the pace of change was swifter.

  "[Government] consult[s] so much before, we barely act... I feel the pace and the ability to drive change was much faster before." – Miette von Buller [09:36]

• Politics Sets the Pace:
  She believes structural government issues are made worse when leadership fails to give clear direction, stressing that "system moves when there is the political clarity and the will". [10:53]

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5. Labour Values and Policy Decisions ([13:08]–[16:21])

• Winter Fuel Allowance Controversy:
  Von Buller learned of the government’s decision to cut the winter fuel allowance for pensioners from the House of Commons chamber herself, despite being the Energy minister—a decision she opposed.

  "That is not the thing I would have advised us to do... I learned about it in the chamber and I thought, wow, that is not where I think we should be going." – Miette von Buller [13:29]

• Disconnect from Labour Values:
  She saw this as a breach of Labour's core values: “This will not look like [Labour] values... it does not feel that we've made that decision against the yardstick of core Labour values.” [16:21]

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6. Being a "Doer" in Government and Civil Service ([17:09]–[20:55])

• Innovative Approach to Change:
  As an official, she pushed boundaries, prioritised real solutions over tinkering, and advocated radical devolution by bringing in non-civil servants to disrupt norms.

  "Sometimes you've got to shock the system, you've got to disrupt in order to drive change." – Miette von Buller [18:52]

• Question of Power:
  Remarkably, she sometimes felt she had more power as a senior official with an ambitious minister than as an elected politician.

  "It's extraordinary that the answer isn't no... That is telling us something about where we've got to." – Nick Robinson [20:34]

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7. Shaped by a Political Upbringing ([21:19]–[25:03])

• Liberian Roots:
  Von Buller comes from a family steeped in African politics, with her father a former Liberian foreign minister and a regime critic—forcing the family to flee after a coup.

  "We were a very political family... even from a very young age, I remember... walking out your door and you see people who can barely scrape two things together and that kind of sticks with you." – Miette von Buller [21:36]; [24:08]

• Experience of Refuge:
  She recalls the terror of leaving Liberia under threat; her sense of security in London is shadowed by those memories.

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8. Community Cohesion and Rising Hatred ([25:47]–[33:19])

• Heightened Division:
  As former Minister for Community Cohesion, she highlights rising fear among minority communities (Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, and Black), noting:

  "I had people saying to me for the first time, I'm wondering whether I can stay in this country. I'm wondering whether my children can grow up in this country." – Miette von Buller [26:55]

• Need for Personal and Collective Action:
  She argues that while government action is vital, real change relies on community members standing up for each other and establishing the boundaries of acceptable speech and action.

  “Our strongest break is when people in communities stand up... and say this is not okay. Treat others as you would want to be treated.” – Miette von Buller [30:42]

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9. Economic Policy, Fiscal Restraint & the Labour Vision ([34:27]–[41:12])

• Lessons from Economics:
  She denounces the "fashionable" left-wing view of ignoring bond markets, instead arguing for credible, rational fiscal plans that inspire confidence and stability.

  "You have to show we get it, there is a plan to get it down... Once there's a plan, there's transparency... the markets will stick with you." – Miette von Buller [36:31]; [38:43]

• On Andy Burnham & Leadership:
  Von Buller praises Burnham’s leadership in Greater Manchester as a “little experiment” for economic regeneration, demonstrating the value of vision and ambition—qualities she believes are essential for national leadership.

  "He does heart as well as head. He has that emotional connection. He has shown he's got a clear vision and project in Greater Manchester, so of course he will." – Miette von Buller [41:15]

• On Leadership Contenders:
  Von Buller supports a contest of ideas, “not just personalities,” and welcomes Burnham and others, including Ed Miliband and Angela Rayner, as potential party leaders.

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10. Beating the Populist Right and Labour’s Future ([44:48]–[48:07])

• Who Can Beat Farage?
  She cautions that status-quo politics cannot defeat Farage, emphasizing the need for "disruptive" vision and an emotional connection to voters’ anger.

  "You don't beat Nigel Farage with status quo politics. You beat Nigel Farage with disruptive—this is how we change the deal because the deal's not working for all of you." – Miette von Buller [45:30]

• Labour’s Existential Moment:
  Von Buller is “optimistic” about Labour’s capacity to rally and deliver change, rejecting fatalism despite internal splits and public dissent.

  "It's existential. But I am optimistic... We cannot fail." – Miette von Buller [46:38]

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11. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I sort of knew in my gut it was the right thing to do." – Miette von Buller [02:55]
• "Government is definitely more treacle... Getting stuff done is much harder than it used to be." – Miette von Buller [09:36]
• "When you're in a crowd, you look around. I didn't feel like that five, ten years ago." – Miette von Buller [27:32]
• "Sometimes you've got to shock the system, you've got to disrupt in order to drive change." – Miette von Buller [18:52]
• "I've imparted to [my kids] the idea that politics is about service and that we are trying to drive change." – Miette von Buller [49:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Resignation reasons and process: [02:13]–[03:36]
• Voter anger and Labour’s loss of trust: [04:34]–[06:17]
• Labour and the Green challenge: [07:08]–[08:41]
• Diagnosis of government dysfunction: [09:36]–[13:08]
• Winter fuel allowance cut controversy: [13:08]–[16:21]
• Shocking the system and devolution: [17:50]–[21:19]
• Liberian upbringing and refugee experience: [21:19]–[25:03]
• Community cohesion, hate, and fear: [25:47]–[33:19]
• Economics, bond markets, and fiscal rules: [34:27]–[38:43]
• Burnham, leadership, and party direction: [41:12]–[43:18]
• On beating Farage and Labour’s existential test: [44:48]–[48:07]
• Personal accountability to children: [48:07]–[49:13]

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Tone & Final Thoughts

The conversation is deeply personal and reflective, marked by von Buller’s honesty, sense of duty, and urgency about Labour’s mission and the dangers of political stagnation. She combines passion for progressive values with a pragmatic, even technocratic, approach to governance and policy, frequently returning to the importance of community, clarity of vision, and delivery on promises. At a time of Labour chaos, she urges unity around purpose—not just leadership—for the sake of the party and the country.

Transcript

[Noel Titheridge]

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[Noel Titheridge]

What an extraordinary week it has been in British politics. After the clobbering Labour got in last week's elections, everything is up for grabs. My guest on Political Thinking was the first minister to resign from the government, demanding that Keir Starmer stand aside. And it was a particularly striking resignation. Miette von Buller is a rising star in the Labour Party. She's already shaped her party's thinking. Before she entered Parliament, she was made a minister just hours after being elected as an mp. What's more, her criticisms about lack of vision, pace and ambition have been echoed by Wes Treating. And they come from a woman who knows government from the inside. As a senior civil servant under the Conservatives as well as Labour, she became an advisor to the Labour Party in opposition and then ran a think tank which influenced their thinking. She knows how government works or should work or could work. And as a refugee from Liberia as a child, she's often talked of the price ordinary people pay when government doesn't work. Miette Farnbuller, welcome to Political Thinking.

[Miette von Buller]

Thank you for having me.

[Noel Titheridge]

Hugely big week. Not just for the country and for the Labour Party, but for you. When you make a decision less than two years after becoming an mp, already a minister, to throw that up, how difficult decision is it? And was it something that you had to ask family, friends, am I mad or is this the right thing to do?

[Miette von Buller]

Yeah, look, it is a tough, tough decision and it's a really personal one. And I think for me, it's twofold. You know, you're part of a team and don't underestimate it. You know, that set of colleagues, you're all trying to work together to do something for the country. And at that point, when you walk away, you are walking away from that team and, you know, to Walk away in order to criticize the boss. That's quite a thing to do. So, you know, I wrestled with it. I sort of knew in my gut it was the right thing to do. I sort of made sure I talked to my husband about it, and he was like, really? You really want to do this? And I was like, I. I think it's the thing I have to do. I talked to my best friend about it, and in the end, you know, for me, it was twofold. It was my constituents sent a really clear message, and I felt I needed to communicate that message. But it was also, you know, I've had the pleasure of sort of being round the table with the Prime Minister, and I didn't think I could look him in the eye, be part of that team if I didn't believe he was the right person to be leading that team.

[Noel Titheridge]

We'll come to why you came to that conclusion. What about when. I mean, was it only after the votes were counted in your Peckham, South London constituency that you. They were pretty grim as they were elsewhere, or frankly, had you been thinking it for weeks?

[Miette von Buller]

There were some pretty brutal conversations on the doorstep. And anyone that knows Peckham knows that we are an amazing community, and people don't hold back and they tell you what they think, and they're pretty forthright about it, and that's the beauty of it. So, you know, there were some pretty tough messages that were sent, and it was quite hard to send that and just to put a pin in it and pretend you didn't hear it. And so it, in some respects, you know, validated things I was thinking about and worried about.

[Noel Titheridge]

But tough messages that surprised you or merely confirmed what you knew? I mean, were there things that you heard on the doorstep that made you go back home and go, boy, I mean, these people are angry, and this is what they think of us?

[Miette von Buller]

So I think it kind of validated what I was worried about. I think the bit that really struck me was just the depths of anger and disappointment and how much of it was attributable to the Prime Minister in a way that, to be honest, I don't think is fair. And I've spent a lot of time trying to understand and sort of rationalize it. And I think, in part, there was so much hope. You know, people were so ground down and so fed up by the end of the Tory days, and there was so much hope when we came in. And, you know, Peckham is a Labor place, had been a Labor place no longer, and our voters were like our Labour Party's back in. And it was that dashed hope, it was the disappointment. And I think it has all crystallized unfairly, in my view. But that's the reality of politics in one person. So I think the scale and depths of anger, the breach of trust, the lack of confidence, you know, I had conversation after conversation with people just saying, we will not support you unless there is that change. And, you know, it's important if you're representing, that you listen. But I think it validated things that I was worried about. And, you know, my approach was to have the conversations privately. You know, I've always done it that way, to communicate the messages privately. But it got to the point that I don't think those messages were being heard. And I just thought, do you know what? I need to say my piece.

[Noel Titheridge]

But what do you say to kind of older people in politics who say, look, me ati, you're new to this. I bet you get patronised this way. You've only been in the House of Commons for less than two years. We've lived through midterm blues for Labour governments, Conservative governments. Quite often they bounce back. Tony Blair did, Margaret Thatcher did. They both got a kicking in local elections, went on to win general elections.

[Miette von Buller]

Well, it wasn't just local elections. Wales, we have held for 100 years and we lost catastrophically. Scotland, we have lost catastrophically. And it's not, for me, it's not about the losing of the seat. It's bigger than this. You know, I think we are at an absolutely critical time in the country. I'm terrified by where politics is going. People are angry and they are frustrated and they want change and they want disruption. And look, there will be people who support reform, but for me, as a black woman, that represents a really diverse community, I am terrified of that prospect. So for me, it isn't just midterm blues. I think the stakes are too high. Our kind of politics is, for me, at risk. The kind of progressive politics I have always believed in. And so my view is you've got to speak up and you've got to act.

[Noel Titheridge]

The threat to you politically in Peckham, in South London doesn't come from Nigel Farage, it doesn't come from reform. It comes from the Greens. Labour lost, what, 23 seats on the council? The Greens gained 18. Is it personal too? As we'll go on and discuss, you've argued for a Green economic revolution as an official, as a think tanker, as a minister, and along come the Greens and say, no, stuff that vote for us.

[Miette von Buller]

It's painful. Do you know what? What's doubly painful is, I think when Zach launched his. If you like, his platform, his. He did it at the New Economics Foundation. So that was pretty painful. Which I used to run. That central analysis of the problem with the economy has been the analysis I've been banging on about for the last decade and a bit. And so it is painful because, you know, they are entering the space that I believe the Labour Party should be holding. This should be our analysis of the problems with the country. I believe it to my absolute core. And so, yeah.

[Noel Titheridge]

To which there's an easy solution. Is there. There'll be people listening to this who might just think, well, fine, embrace the Greens, work with the Greens. I mean, maybe even join the Greens.

[Miette von Buller]

So I'm Labour Party through and through and look, in the end, I am not a particularly tribal or factional person. I will work with anyone in order to deliver change for both my community, but also country. And I think it's important that you do work across political divides in order to make progress and make things happen. Like, my view is, if I think about where we have delivered progressive change in this country, whether it's the NHS or the minimum wage, it is the Labour Party that has done that.

[Noel Titheridge]

Execute through government. That's effectively your criticism of Keir Starmer, isn't it? I read your resignation letter. We've not acted with the vision, pace and ambition that our mandate for change demands of us. You say, now we're talking a few hours after Wes Treating resigned as Health Secretary, and there's a real echo. Where we need vision, he says, we have a vacuum. Where we need direction, we have drift. You say pace, he says drift. What is the problem? Is it that the system of government in this country doesn't work as some people claimed? And as I said in the introduction, you know it from the inside. You've worked as a civil servant, you've worked as a policy advisor, you've worked under governments of different colours. Or is it something actually about the personality of leaders and whether they can make change happen?

[Miette von Buller]

So I think it's both. And actually, my reflection, having worked in government for a long time as a civil servant and then coming in again this time is. Government is definitely more treacle, is the way I describe it. Getting stuff done is much harder than it used to be. The level of processes, the bureaucracies, the. You know, I remember my first time in the job and I was like, we consult so much before, we barely act. There's sort of six Months baked into it in order to consult, to do this, to do that. And I feel the pace and the ability to drive change was much faster before when I was in.

[Noel Titheridge]

So there was much faster when you served under a Conservative government, under Labour

[Miette von Buller]

gun Blair Brown and even at the start of the coalition government. So there is something about the way that the state is operating that isn't. That doesn't have the pace and the urgency. But. And this is the big but, I think the politics does matter, I think. And you know, if I were sitting here with colleagues in the Civil Service, they would say we can act when we're really clear about where the government's trying to get to. We can act when we aren't doing one thing and then that's being u turned. So I do think there is something about you can and we must. It's imperative that you get the system to move. But the system moves when there is the political clarity and the will that drives the system along.

[Noel Titheridge]

And that's what's missing under Keir Starmer.

[Miette von Buller]

I think, you know, and I. Look, I say this with the recognition that I think we've done some brilliant stuff and, you know, you would expect me to say this as a Labour mp, and I will always point to the Employment Rights Bill, the biggest boost to workers rights in the generation, the Renters Rights Act I took through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill. So there is a chalk list of things that we are doing. But I think the thing that everyone is reaching for is how it comes together in a project that the country understands and every part of the machine and the system understands.

[Noel Titheridge]

Forgive me, I wanted to pause you there because it seems to me there's a difference between vision can you communicate, can you tell a story and the jargon of politics if you've got the right narrative and can you get the system to deliver. Now, you've said something really interesting. As a civil servant under Tony Blair, as Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, as Prime Minister, David Cameron as Prime Minister, things got done quicker than under Keir Starmer. And your view is. It is that he just isn't driving that change through.

[Miette von Buller]

Yeah, I mean, look, I think he's not driving that change through. I think it is harder and it's important to say I think it is harder. I think there was something that happened over the course of those Brexit years. There was something that happened when we had that churn of prime ministers and those politicians leading. That means that the machine is working in a different way than it did do. So I think it's really important to understand that context. But fundamentally, I do believe politics can drive things, but you've got to be really clear about what you are driving. You've got to be very clear that this is my central diagnosis of the problem. This is what our project is, this is what we're trying to achieve. Because five years is not a long time. And if you are not clear that this is where I'm trying to take the country and therefore the government, and every part of the government is absolutely clear about that, it's very hard to drive change. And so for me, it's that. And then, you know, ultimately lots of people in the system make lots of decisions and if they're not clear about the central thread that is driving through and the underpinning values, who. Who are you for? What are you about? You're asking thousands of people to make everyday decisions that don't necessarily cohere.

[Noel Titheridge]

One of the things that is still raised on the doorstep when it comes to betraying, as it's seen, Labour's values, is cutting winter fuel allowance as one of the first things that this Labour government did. Now, you were working in the Energy Department under Ed Miller's band. Did you feel then a frustration at what happened?

[Miette von Buller]

Yes, yes. That is not the thing I would have advised us to do. Let's put it like that.

[Noel Titheridge]

You choose your words carefully. Was it something you advised not to do or did you not know about it?

[Miette von Buller]

I learned about it in the chamber and I thought, wow, that is not where I think we should be going with this.

[Noel Titheridge]

You're an energy minister and the first. You know that winter fuel allowance, which is an energy policy, I mean, it's also obviously a Treasury. The first you know about it is when you hear it in the chamber of the House of Commons.

[Miette von Buller]

Yeah. And my. And that was against the context we were going into. The winter energy bills were still high. We hadn't as yet had an intervention like we've just had around the, you know, taking £150 off bills. And I thought that is not only going to be quite a counterintuitive people thing for us to do in the eyes of people, because ultimately the Labour Party is there to protect. The Labour Party is there to make sure that those that can't navigate through difficult situations, which is what we're in, that we are by their side. And I was like, this is going to be a hard one for people to swallow.

[Noel Titheridge]

If you had done then what was done later, which is this Discount of what £150 off energy bills for the poorest. Could it have been sold?

[Miette von Buller]

So I think where we ended up. So in the end, the argument around targeting, I think most people bought, of course, there were really. People always cite the rich pensioners that got the winter fuel payment. That made no sense. It made no sense to those pensioners. So targeting was the right thing. I think the targeting was far too severe. And then it wasn't juxtaposed with a set of things that we could have done to say that we're protecting people. So, you know, if I give you an example, one of the things that I thought of off the back of the winter fuel was to extend the warm homes discount. So we went from 3 million people to 6 million people getting it after the event. But if you'd bought the two things together, far less aggressive targeting, that meant that those that needed it, particularly those in the middle, that weren't on pension credit but, you know, needed it in order to warm their homes, if he'd done that and done the warm homes discount, I think we could have sold the policy. But it was just that at a time when people were feeling the cost of living and energy bills were biting.

[Noel Titheridge]

Go back to that moment. You're in the chamber of the House of Commons, the Chancellor is announcing that winter fuel payment is going to be cut. You as an Energy minister, don't know. Is that a moment that for the first time you think, boy, what is the vision of this government? What's gone wrong here? Maybe this leader hasn't got it.

[Miette von Buller]

So, look, the honest answer is the context was tough. The context was tough. And I think I remember really clearly the Chancellor setting out just the horrendous card that she had been dealt and the fact that tough choices had to be made. I think what was difficult was it was only one tough choice and it was targeted at a group that, yes, there were wealthy people within it, but there were a lot of vulnerable people in that and that just didn't feel aligned with our labor values. And I think that's the point when I thought, ultimately, to govern, you've got to be really clear about whose side you're on, and you've got to be really clear about the values that are driving what you are doing. And this will not look like labor values. And it does not feel that we've made that decision against the yardstick of eight Labour values. And that's going to be a tough, tough, tough thing for us to sell.

[Noel Titheridge]

So two themes that I'm hearing again, and Again, values and getting things done. You, I'm told, did know how to get things done when you were an official. We called your old boss, your old Tory boss, Cabinet Office Minister under David Cameron. Greg Clark, who was the Tory Cities Minister when you were in charge of cities policy. It's quite flattering about you. She was a doer. She was incredibly creative and willing to take a risk in her career, didn't conform to the standard civil service way of doing things. What do you think he might be referring to? What is it you were able to do that the system at the moment isn't able to do and why?

[Miette von Buller]

Yeah, so I think my two. And this has really shaped the way I do everything and it shaped my politics. I think the two things I have always held true is if you are trying to make something happen or drive change, do it properly. Actually figure out what the problem is and what the solution is and do the actual solution. Don't tinker around the margins. And then the second thing is, understand that sometime, and this was in the context of devolution. Now, if you know anything about government, it likes to hoard power. And my job, when I led the City's policy unit, was to try to rip power out of the hands of Whitehall departments and give it to our city regions and what became our mayors. And that process was tortuously difficult. It still is now. And I say, this is the person that then became the Minister for Devolution. And I think my big insight was, sometimes you've got to shock the system, you've got to disrupt in order to drive change. And so the approach that we took was we bought in a whole lot of people who weren't civil servants and could come with a mindset for a short period of time in order to disrupt. And we thought, look, how do we do this differently? Because normally there's a very sort of painful conversation about, well, Department A, do you want to do this? Department B. And so we set ourselves up in a really different way. We tried to make it very political. So I remember for the first time, we're like, how do we have a conversation about, this place wants to do X, Y and Z that will fundamentally transform their place, but they don't have the resources or the power to do it. The system says, oh, this is a bit difficult, this is not how we do things. How do you break that? And the bit of innovation we took is, could you get a set of ministers around the table with some leaders and some business people to say, this is what we want to do and why?

[Noel Titheridge]

So it's a shared project.

[Miette von Buller]

So it's a shared project, but actually you have a proper conversation. So if you, you know, if you think about a lot of cabinet committees or meetings, they're often, you know, there's a particular script, the department says this, and we're just like, how do you break that? And we took it to real issues and ideas and then had a proper conversation, politician to politician. That just broke that. And that's the way we managed to get the first wave of deals and devolution out of Whitehall.

[Noel Titheridge]

What's interesting, hearing you talk about this is it sounds as if you had more power as an official than you feel you did have as a minister at times. Is that right?

[Miette von Buller]

So I think it's both. I think I got lucky to work with a minister in Greg Clark that was quite willing to sort of push the boundaries and to create the space to do that as well. But I think that's also possible as a minister. And actually, I've tried to take that approach, you know, where I can, but.

[Noel Titheridge]

Forgive me. Pause a second. It's extraordinary that the answer isn't no. You know, I'm asking you whether you have more power as an official or more power as an elected politician, as a minister, and you go, well, maybe, you know, it's extraordinary that the answer is, don't be ridiculous. Core's got more powers than minister. That is telling us something about where we've got to. Isn't is.

[Miette von Buller]

It is. And what I would say candidly, is, of course, politicians, of course politicians have the power. I think there is something around the collective clarity to drive things in a particular direction and be able to get to A, to B, and to sometimes break some eggs and to innovate and to do things differently.

[Noel Titheridge]

And I wonder if maybe part of the secret to why you've proved to be good at this. You learned this literally from childhood, didn't you? And when I read about your background, you were learning about, talking about discussing politics right from the off.

[Miette von Buller]

Yep, absolutely. So, you know, we were a very political family. My father, my grandfather, and then my father was in politics in Liberia. Now, politics in Africa is difficult and chaotic and brutal and impassioned. And this was the time when the history of Liberia is a very interesting one, where we had liberated slaves that came and made Liberia their home. But there was a big indigenous population there, and the people that came to seek freedom then essentially ran an oligarchy to the detriment of the indigenous community. And so a lot of the Politics, then was how you break away from that. And my father bought a lot of that at the table. So, you know, we.

[Noel Titheridge]

Not when you're a teenager, because you leave when you're what, six, seven, eight?

[Miette von Buller]

I mean, from. From a young age, we sat. Yeah, no, we would sit, you know. But even when we came to the uk, you know, there were always conversations about the struggles, and that went from the very specific in Liberia through to Africa, through to the development world, through to the working class. And that very much shaped my politics.

[Noel Titheridge]

And was this a home? I mean, your dad had been, what, foreign minister?

[Miette von Buller]

Yeah.

[Noel Titheridge]

Was this a home in which kind of celebrity politicians from Africa, some of the bright thinkers around economics and political scientists, were they there at the dinner table? Were they there for a drink? Were they people you knew and met?

[Miette von Buller]

Well, so when we were younger, in West Africa, Absolutely. In England, less so, actually. It was always very. It was always a very personal political conversation as a family and about issues. You know, we rarely sort of sat round and talked about EastEnders, we, like the table.

[Noel Titheridge]

What did you do instead of eastenders? Neo endogenous growth.

[Miette von Buller]

You joke. But seriously. So I grew up with it and I grew up with that sense of, you know, that sense that we are all here to make a contribution, however small or large. It's important to see things as it is, to diagnose them and to try and act, if you can act.

[Noel Titheridge]

But you've said in the past that what you saw in Liberia, albeit that you were very young, shaped your thinking about the world. Now, I imagine, given your dad's job, you had a pretty comfortable material existence, albeit with that political fear, tension. What was it you saw around you that turned you into the politician you are?

[Miette von Buller]

So one of the things I'd say, if you think about African politics and actually where we are now is the middle classes, the wealthy live comfortable lives, but you are surrounded by heartbreaking levels of poverty. And even from a very young age, I sort of remember that, you know, the people, you walk out your door and you see people who can barely scrape two things together and that kind of sticks with you. And then you come here and, you know, my parents had to flee. We had to flee because my dad, a little bit like me, was very outspoken. He couldn't hold his tongue and that got him to a fair bit of trouble. And so we. We had to flee on pain of our lives.

[Noel Titheridge]

Just briefly, I was going to say, when you say a fair bit of trouble, I mean, that's actually a rather English understatement.

[Miette von Buller]

It's an English understatement. So you. He had to get us all out because we were at the top of the hit list at the time. This was just after the coup.

[Noel Titheridge]

You were very young. I mean, do you remember that fear?

[Miette von Buller]

So I remember the period around the coup because I have this very vivid memory, and I was very young then, but I remember being underneath the bed and I remember hearing gunshots. And then I remember just a period where things moved really quickly and we knew we had to get out of the country. And we went to Sierra Leone, where my parents had hoped that's where my mom was from, and they hoped that we could settle there. But, you know, politics follows you and the guns follow you. So we had to leave West Africa. But as. But. And it's more for feeling like. I remember that sense of deep insecurity. I remember that sense that something wasn't right. And that sticks with you. Yeah, that sticks with you.

[Noel Titheridge]

And you live in London. When your family moves here, you end up as a member of Parliament with. Talk about this in a second. Representing a very diverse part of South London. And one of the ministerial jobs you did, maybe it's part of the problem, by the way, is that you've done multiple jobs in less than two years, was to be Minister of Community Cohesion, Minister of Devolution, Faith in communities. It was, wasn't it? Do you now feel that that issue of community cohesion is one of the key problems that is now faced?

[Miette von Buller]

I think it is one of the biggest challenges that we have. And you sort of intellectualize it. You know, you understand it's an issue. And actually, one of the privileges of doing that particular job is I got to spend a lot of time talking to people in our Jewish community, our Muslim community, our Sikh community. And the fear, the fear, the anxiety, you know, when I have. I had people saying to me for the first time, I'm wondering whether I can stay in this country. I'm wondering whether my children can grow up in this country. And it's.

[Noel Titheridge]

You're hearing that from one community or multiple?

[Miette von Buller]

Multiple community. I'm hearing it from the Jewish community. I'm hearing it from the Muslim community. And it took me back. And, you know, we talk about social cohesion. It's a kind of techie word no one really sort of understands. But the visceral impact that it's having on our communities at the moment, where people are going out of their homes and they're looking behind their shoulders for the first time. And I say that as a Black person. And even I have that sense of worry. You know, you're in a crowd, you look around. I didn't feel like that five, 10 years ago.

[Noel Titheridge]

You look around for what?

[Miette von Buller]

Anyone that might be a bit hostile. And that is a really scary place, I think, for minorities in our community to be so verbally hostile or you

[Noel Titheridge]

fear for your safety.

[Miette von Buller]

Verbally hostile and fear for my safety.

[Noel Titheridge]

And I don't want to intrude. I try not generally to ask about people's children, but you've got three kids of your own. Do you worry for them?

[Miette von Buller]

I worry for my children. And so I think it is the most important issue that we have to grapple with. And actually coming into the brief and, you know, I had understood it personally, I had understood it intellectually and actually sitting there and looking at where we were and how much work there is to do to knit our communities together. 1. But also there was just, you know, the things that were unsayable, people maybe thought them. They say them now and they're acting on them. And that wasn't the way it was. And so how you shift that and put that back, I don't know.

[Noel Titheridge]

It is one way to intervene more to. Even if it means curbing what people see as free speech. There are two huge marches this weekend. One, the anniversary of what's known as the Nakbar, the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes when the state of Israel was created. The other, Tommy Robinsons march, the United Kingdom rally. Do you get to the point you're not in government anymore where you think ban them, limit them, arrest people who say certain things and write things on black arts.

[Miette von Buller]

So look, I think it's a really fine line that we have to cross. And I will always, always defend free speech and the freedom of protests. And I say that as someone that has come from a country where that was something that cost people's lives. So, you know, you take it for granted until it's not there. And I think it has to be sacrosanct. But. But the work that we have to do to firstly build the resilience of our communities so that difference is not something to be scared of and difference is not something to be exploited. And that only happens where people from different backgrounds come together. But that bit which is absolutely express your views, but when that moves to being threatening, when that means that you have no care or consideration for the impact that it has for your neighbors and your community, there is something not right there. And up to now, and this is where we need to get to. There was always a community break. It was the neighbor next door that said, hey, don't say that to my Pakistani neighbor or my Pakistani friend or my black friend or my Jewish friend. And that bit, how do you rebuild our collective sense of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable? Is a bit that we have to work on and government has to.

[Noel Titheridge]

So you want people on. You'll know lots of people who go on pro Palestinian marches. You want them to police that speech and say to others not just globalized intifater, because it might well be that that is regarded as an illegal incitement. But using the red triangle which celebrates hamas, implying that October 7, the terrible massacres of Jewish people is something to celebrate. You want people to say no, no, hold on, that has nothing to do with supporting the Palestinians.

[Miette von Buller]

So my view is government needs to be really careful when it treads in this area because we can be heavy handed and it can backfire. Actually our strongest break is when people in communities stand up for I say brothers and sisters, your neighbors, your fellow people and say this is not okay. Treat others as you would want to be treated. And I think that is far more powerful. So you know, it's. We've all been there where you are in a room with someone and they say that thing that you're like oh, that's just. And whether you speak up or not, that is the defining issue. And too often I think people like well I'm hearing it so often. Is it even worth. And you have to call it out every single time. That is far more powerful than government from on high saying you're banned from saying X, Y and Z because A it's really hard to police and there is a really fine line and how we build our communities up so people feel empowered and confident and they themselves know what is the threshold that we are crossing and why should I speak up in solidarity with others?

[Noel Titheridge]

You're an economist and I want to talk about the economy because it seems to me it's central to the choice of the Labour Party faces now. But it relates to this issue. A criticism of the Labour Party of the left generally is it has tended to regard community tension, concerns about immigration as purely an economic issue. It's nothing to do with culture, something to do with numbers. It's nothing to do with a sense of identity. It's purely economic. People weren't poor, they wouldn't be angry with their neighbours. Do you think it's time the Labour Party said it's a bit more complicated than that. There's more to it than that.

[Miette von Buller]

Look, I think the Labour Party is, and there is a lot of conversation around this question and actually for me, I see it through the lens of cohesion and integration and of course there's an economic part of this, but this is about community and the society that we are. And I think that is, you've got to be able to confront that. You know, I always use this. In what world did we think it was okay to plonk asylum hotels and communities without asking the local authority or without seeking the consent of the community? And then we wonder why there are community tensions. So there is something real here and it is about the feel and look of our communities and people generally scared about change, particularly when the change they are feeling is not impacting them in a good place. And it's not necessarily the fault of the migrants, and I say that as a migrant, but the combination of the two. And it is about the cultural, it is about the sense of community identity as well as the economics and we have to deal with all of it.

[Noel Titheridge]

What's so interesting about what you've said is you're a black woman representing a diverse constituency in central London and it seems to me you're saying, I understand the fears, I understand the anger people have.

[Miette von Buller]

Absolutely. But I've also seen how we do it well and we do it well in Peckham.

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[Noel Titheridge]

Now let's turn to economics because it has been your life for a long time. You led this think tank, the New Economics Foundation. It advised Jeremy Corbyn when he was forming economic policies. Keir Starmer too. This was after you'd left the civil service. There's a fashionable view at the moment and lots of the candidates who want to be the next Prime Minister seem to be flirting with it, which I would summarize rather crudely as just tell the bond markets where to get off. As an economist, and I think it's fair to describe a left wing economist, is that the thing to do? We should just tell all those guys who lend us all the money forget it?

[Miette von Buller]

No, but look, as an economist, I found the politicization, if I can use it like that of the bond markets absolutely fascinating, because what are we talking about, right? The bond markets are individuals, they're pension funds, they're insurance companies, and there are governments from abroad that are choosing to buy government guilds or sell government guilds.

[Noel Titheridge]

And in the crudely, because it's always confusing. In other words, they're lending money and if they're worried about us, they demand a higher interest rate.

[Miette von Buller]

Yes, that's basically it. And the thing I would say is ultimately what all of those actors who don't act in concert, what they care about is that your debt is sustainable so that you don't default because then they lose money, and that you've got a plan when debt is high, which it is, and obviously I would blame the Tories for that. So you expect nothing else, but when it's high, that you've got a plan to get it down. And I don't think anyone can resolve from that. But the key bit for me is that you have a plan. And I found the debate around the bond market fascinating because you can barely breathe and people are talking about the bond market and I'm like, these investors are investing in multiple countries. They're not looking at the minutiae of what's happening in the UK and whether the Prime Minister sneezes or not, and whether that has an impact on the bond market.

[Noel Titheridge]

And yet we have to pay a lot more as a country to borrow money than most of our competitors countries. So they're looking at something.

[Miette von Buller]

Well, so they're looking at the fact that our debt ratio is high and they are pricing that in. So for me, the key thing, and this is where I do think the Chancellor has got it right, you have to say this is the plan. And actually what the plan looks like, it can vary from government to government. And if you look at the last, you know, from Gordon Brown through to George Osborne through to now, your fiscal framework has changed. But you need to show we get it, there is a plan to get it down. And then you need to show. And the bit about stability is like, we are determined to Execute that plan,

[Noel Titheridge]

whatever it is, but could you change the plan? So, in other words, it seems to me that what you're saying is, what you can't do is change the plan every week. What you can't say is, oh, there's a backbench rebellion, or there's a bad opinion poll, or I've just been on Question Time and got a bit of a kicking. We'll change the plan, we'll borrow more money, but could you just start as a Labour government with a plan that allowed you to borrow more and spend more without taxing more?

[Miette von Buller]

So, look, I think the Chancellor has done that insofar as there was a decision made that we had to invest in things like the green economy or our roads or our infrastructure, and therefore the rules were adjusted to allow you to do that. I often say to people, I always used to tease when I was at the New Economics Foundation, I think George Osborne changed his fiscal rules about 20 times in the space of eight years and the markets didn't freak out, because ultimately, you need a rational reason for why you are doing the things that you're doing, and you need to show that you've got the credibility to show it through. And so, for me, I always come back to set out your framework, which Rachel has done. Be really transparent about the rationale for it and why you're trying to do the things that you're trying to do. And if they believe that you've got a credible plan to get from A to B, whatever A to B is. And I think it has to adjust through any Parliament because the circumstances change. So you should change whether circumstances change. Set it for five years, adjust it after the end of that Parliament for the next five years and you execute it. But once there is a plan, there is transparency around the plan, it is rational and it looks like you will follow through. The markets will stick with you.

[Noel Titheridge]

That brings us to the choice that Labour's got now. You know Andy Burnham, because when you were an official working on the Cities programme, he was already mayor of Greater Manchester City. Work with him. You said you'd back him if he's available as a candidate. But he looked and sounded, and I was in the room when he said it, as if he thought, bond markets. Yeah, who cares about the bond markets?

[Miette von Buller]

So that wasn't my. You were in the room. I wasn't having spoken to him, because we ended up working very closely together on devolution when I was the minister there. And I did ask about this as an economist. And look, I think the argument he was making is absolutely, you recognize that the markets are there for all the reasons I've talked about. They want to be clear that there is a plan. But the key thing is you cannot be so constrained that you can't make the political decisions that drive change. And he will often use the example of the buses where he says, look, sometimes, you know, I made the decision to take the buses back into public ownership and actually by doing that we are able to deliver a much better service that is cheaper for the taxpayer but also better for consumers. And in that is a story about actually how we get the cost of government spending down. And that's the thing that gives the markets confidence. So I think it's more, don't let it constrain your ambition because we have to deliver change. And this is my point about the politicization of the bond markets have a plan, but that plan should not constrain the absolute imperative that we deliver big change in the country, because that is what we've got a political mandate to do.

[Noel Titheridge]

So Burnham as mayor has shown to use your words, vision, pace and ambition.

[Miette von Buller]

So I think he has, you know, and I've followed the history of Greater Manchester. I was there when I was an official. Our first deal with was with Greater Manchester, where we created the Manchester mayor. And to watch that journey, what devolution has done and decisions that have been made at that level and the fact that Greater Manchester is the fastest growing city region in the country suggests that you can have a vision, you can have a project and you can execute it in a way that can lift your communities up. And I think that is compelling and

[Noel Titheridge]

that could translate to being prime Minister.

[Miette von Buller]

I think. Well, I think it shows an interesting economic model and the sorts of things. We've got a little experiment about what it looks like to try and do economics in a different way at that level that potentially could be translated to the national.

[Noel Titheridge]

What's making you hesitate from just saying, yeah, Andy Burnham would be a good prime Minister?

[Miette von Buller]

No, I think he would be, candidly. I mean, I think he is a great politician. I think he is empathetic. He does heart as well as head. He has that emotional connection. He has shown he's got a clear vision and project in Greater Manchester, so of course he will. But I say that also knowing that we've got some other brilliant people in our front prevention, our PLP that might want to put themselves forward. And the key for me, this is the final thing I'll say, I get frustrated as someone that's come into politics. That politics has become so much about the personalities and I think it's about the what, not the who. What is the project? What are you trying to do for the country? How are you going to drive the change that people are absolutely demanding? We need people to set out their stalls and then decide who is best to take us forward based on that.

[Noel Titheridge]

But you agree with Wes treating in his resignation letter, then resignation as Health Secretary, when he says we need to get a battle of ideas, not a personalities, not a petty factualism. It needs to be broad, it needs to be the best possible field of candidates.

[Miette von Buller]

100% agree with that.

[Noel Titheridge]

You only want a leadership race once Andy Burnham's in, basically.

[Miette von Buller]

Well, I don't think you can have a leadership race without him in, because I think he commands so much support within the Labour movement and I think he is a popular politician and if he wants to be part of that, I think he should be allowed to be part of that. And then let's have the battle of ideas. And the thing I'd say is we're all elected on that manifesto. No one is going to deviate from it. But, you know, in it is a really ambitious project. There's an ambitious version of manifesto, there's an anemic version of that manifesto. And I want everyone to say, how are they going to deliver it in the most ambitious way, where we've got a country that is hurting, where communities are held back, people are frustrated and they're angry and we need not incremental tinkering, but fundamental change to the economic settlement. I want to hear who has that plan, who has that vision, and then we rally around that.

[Noel Titheridge]

You're almost unique in the sense. You've worked with Burnham, you worked with Ed Miliband, you've worked with Angela Rayner. Have Miliband and Rayner got what it takes?

[Miette von Buller]

Yeah, look, I've, you know, I think Ed is brilliant and he is someone that has always had a really clear analysis of the political economy, of the economic settlement. You know, he was. The phrase many, few. I remember my first week in the job and this was my first exposure to politics for the many, not the few. For the many, not the few. And I remember going into a meeting with a whole lot of advisors trying to talk about energy and what we were going to do on energy. And the first 10 minutes they had different versions of talking about many, few, few, many, the squeeze middle.

[Noel Titheridge]

And I.

[Miette von Buller]

And I didn't a clue about any of it, but the first articulation of the fact that the economy's not working for people and actually that squeezed middle and bottom. We need a different settlement. He started that and he has been clear about his conviction up to then. Angela is an absolutely phenomenal politician, has brilliant political instincts and the fact that she has survived the labor movement, the trade union movement and risen to where she has from her background. So she's absolutely formidable. And the reason I talk about all of them is the Labour Party is filled with superstars, which is why I am confident that we can step up to the challenge that the country has set us. Because we've got some brilliant people, we need them to come together and then we need to crack on and deliver for the country.

[Noel Titheridge]

You said the test is ideas and policies, not just personalities. But there is one test lots of your colleagues worry about. Lots of defeated counsellors as well as those not yet defeated. If that's pessimism, proves to be correct, which is, who can beat Nigel Farage? Who can beat Nigel Farage?

[Miette von Buller]

So, look, I think Nigel is actually very beatable because in the end, it's a politics of division. I don't really know what he would do to change the economic settlement. I look at the ideas that come out of reform. I don't think privatizing the NHS is the thing that's going to help our communities.

[Noel Titheridge]

That's why you don't like him. Who would beat Najafara?

[Miette von Buller]

So my sense is that we need a politician that can set out a vision, because in the end, people are going to the extremes because they are just sick and tired of the status quo. You don't beat Nigel Farage with status quo politics. You beat Nigel Farage with disruptive. This is how we change the deal, because the deal's not working for all of you. And then we need a politician that can reach hearts and minds, because at the moment, people are desperately skeptical about politics and politicians and the ability to connect emotionally and say, we get it, we get that life is tough and we've got your back.

[Noel Titheridge]

And you think that's Andy Burnham.

[Miette von Buller]

I think that is Andy. I think that is Angela. I think that could be Wes. Like, I think we have people that could do it. But, yeah, I think Andy Burnham has shown in Greater Manchester how he can unite our coalition.

[Noel Titheridge]

You sound amazingly optimistic, despite the fact, as you've said, Labour got a trouncing in large parts of London that you represent as well in Scotland and in Wales, really? Because there are some people watching and listening to this who think it's all over. They think the Labour Party's gone as the party of working people.

[Miette von Buller]

So I think it's existential. But I am optimistic. And I'm optimistic for two reasons. In the end, I think we've got brilliant colleagues and they will rally. And ultimately, you know, I come back to the thing I've said. The Labour Party has always been the driver of progressive change and now, more than ever, we need this. And so it's not just about party, it is about country. And the stakes are so high that I know that not just my colleagues, but all of our activists, our trade unions, we will rally because we cannot, we cannot fail.

[Noel Titheridge]

Despite the fact that you're behaving like the Tories you condemned. Splitting in public, talking of removing an elected leader, arguing about names of people that no one's ever heard of, despite that.

[Miette von Buller]

Well, so this week has been tough. This is not us. We don't do this as the Labour Party. And what I would say is, well, now we turned out, now we are. And we're all mortified. I promise you, we're all mortified. We'll only do this once. And I think, you know, the Labour Party, we don't change our leaders. It takes a lot for people like me to turn to someone who is a good guy, who's trying to do his best for the country, who we all have a lot of gratitude and respect for. This is a hard thing that we are doing, and we're doing it because we see that it is not just existential for the party, but this is make or break for our communities. And so we do it, but we do it once. We will not do this again. We are not the Tories.

[Noel Titheridge]

Who finally. Who's your toughest judge when it comes to what you do as a politician?

[Miette von Buller]

Definitely my kids. So it is, you know, it's brilliant. So I've got twins that are 8 years old and I've got an 11 year old and they are so switched on. And I remember when I became an mp, I kind of told them what I was doing and became a minister and I told them and they've let off a little bit now, but I remember my first eight months, literally every week they'd be like, what have you done? What have you achieved for the people of Peckham? What have you done for the country? Yeah, absolutely. And so I'd have to explain to them. And I remember this moment, I was in the car with my. With the kids and this was the time when we were listening to the radio and I remember energy bills had unfortunately gone down. And my son looked at me and he's like, isn't it your job to get energy bills down? Are you failing? And I was just like, give us time. Four or five weeks into the job. So they keep me honest, but they have. I'm proud that we've sort of imparted to them the idea that politics is about service and that we are trying to drive change. And I'm glad that they're holding me to account.

[Noel Titheridge]

No wonder you're not scared of doing an interview. Thank you for doing more on Political Thinking.

[Miette von Buller]

Thank you for having me.

[Noel Titheridge]

Thanks for listening to this episode of Political Thinking. The producers were Hannah Wilkinson and Flora Murray. The editor is Giles Edwards. There are hundreds of previous conversations like this on BBC Sounds, including, incidentally, if you might just want to hear an interview with the former Health Secretary, Wes Treaty, or perhaps the current mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham, they are there. Go to BBC Sounds and while you're there having a listen back. If you tap subscribe, each new episode of Political Thinking will drop into your feed as soon as they're released. Also on BBC Sounds, you'll find my colleague Amal Rajan's podcast radical. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Who'll be in the chair talking to me? Who knows? There's a reason that a week is the long time in politics is one of the oldest cliches of them all. Like all cliches just happens to be true. I'm Noel tittheridge and for BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World. This is impulsive. What happens when someone's personality changes completely?

[Miette von Buller]

It was completely out of character. Never done it before, never done it

[Noel Titheridge]

since, and it's because of a prescription drug.

[Miette von Buller]

I asked myself, why would you do such a thing? What were you thinking?

[Noel Titheridge]

I've been uncovering the shocking side effects linked to medications called dopamine agonist. For BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World. This is impaulsive. Subscribe to Shadow World Impulsive now on BBC Sounds.

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