Stephen Overley (3:02)

Yeah, a lot of parallels between the.

Michael Cruz (3:04)

Two, certainly similar exercises. And the Trump Musk Venn diagram is real and is something that is worth, I think, very much worth considering at this point, heading into the Trump term. That, to me is one of the more interesting things about starting to learn more about Elon Musk. Why do these guys get along?

Stephen Overley (3:30)

Right.

Michael Cruz (3:30)

Of course, hovering over that question is how long will they be able to get along?

Stephen Overley (3:34)

Exactly.

Michael Cruz (3:35)

They're both such strong personalities. But for now, arguably you have literally the two most famous, the two most formidable, the two most powerful human beings on planet Earth, kind of tag teaming in this weird way. So I think it's worth delving into something like muskology at this point.

Stephen Overley (3:59)

Well, speaking of muskology, there's something you write in this. You say, quote, he's as awkward as he is accomplished, as thoughtless as he is thoughtful, as compelling as he is confounding. It sort of sounds kind of like a man of mystery, Right? Like an enigma wrapped in a riddle. Is that who you found Elon Musk to be?

Michael Cruz (4:18)

He's an incredibly complicated figure without putting too much medical agency to that term. There is a bipolarity to him and he's kind of all over the place. And hopefully this comes across in the 199. On the one hand, incredibly impulsive, like, wants what he wants right now. There's an aggression about him, but there's also this, like, almost impossibly deep thoughtfulness to him too. This scope of how he sees not just the world, but like the solar system. Right, right. He thinks in these very long arcs, we need to get to Mars before I die. You know, talks and thinks in a way that I think it's fair to say Donald Trump certainly does not.

Stephen Overley (5:07)

Well, that's what I was going to say. You know, for people, I think, who are just tuning into Elon Musk, one thing they may miss is that he does, like, think about the future beyond the future. He's thinking about, like, survival of civilization when this planet no longer is viable. It sounds like that did come through quite a bit in your work here.

Michael Cruz (5:27)

Yeah. On the one hand, he's like, we got to do this now. You know, get rid of this part. Do it now. If he's at the Tesla factory.

Stephen Overley (5:36)

Right, right.

Michael Cruz (5:37)

But then he also, not necessarily in the same breath, but maybe in the next breath, he talks about, you know, millions and millions of years. What is human consciousness? You know, are we just atoms bouncing around? There's something more here. There must be something. Is it a soul? You know, there is this real almost incongruity right. In how he thinks and how he talks that I find extremely interesting.

Stephen Overley (6:05)

How does that square with someone like Donald Trump who is focused on the here and now and like the immediate win?

Michael Cruz (6:13)

One of the things I sometimes think about when I think about Donald Trump is something an intimate, somebody identified as an intimate told the late Wayne Barrett and very early Trump biographer, sort of the first Trumpologist. This person told Wayne, Donald Trump is the most present person I've ever met. What do I need to do? Not just today, but like right now, this hour, this minute, to get what I need? We'll do it again tomorrow.

Stephen Overley (6:42)

Right.

Michael Cruz (6:42)

That's sort of how he navigates the world in some sense. Elon Musk is entirely the opposite. I mean, he's thinking in longer arcs than I am, certainly.

Stephen Overley (6:56)

Right.

Michael Cruz (6:56)

You know, not even a lifespan, you know, many lifetimes, galactic lifetimes, and seems to want to move as fast as he does to do X, Y or Z, not necessarily to accomplish it five minutes from now, but because he knows there's really just a blip of his own existence and actually a blip of all of our existence to get done what needs to get done. And he has talked, and this is in this list of profile, as I call it, he has talked about finding a filter is the word he use. He uses, has used to get to kind of another dimension. Like if we don't get to Mars in time, this planet will end. It will no longer be viable to live here. Annihilation is, as he has put it, a certainty. And so before that happens, we, humanity, the consciousness of humanity, we need to get to Mars to have like sort of another shot on another planet to become multi planetary before he dies. Before we die.

Stephen Overley (8:00)

Right.

Michael Cruz (8:01)

And so that is not fair to say, I think how Trump sorts out what's going on around him and what's going on around us.

Stephen Overley (8:10)

Well, and it's interesting because, I mean, if you separate the men themselves from those outlooks, like one is like the long term visionary, another is like the get it done now both kind of viable leadership styles, if you will. But I think there's a question of compatibility. And like you were saying earlier, you have these massive personalities of Trump and Musk who are getting along great right now. You know, Musk apparently has an office in the White House working right there with Trump. The question is, can it last? Do you have a take on that?

Michael Cruz (8:43)

Well, my take, as almost always, is tbd. I hesitate to predict much of anything ever, certainly now. Still, though, I wouldn't be surprised if it lasts longer than I think some people think. A couple reasons, but maybe first and foremost, there's never been anybody like Elon Musk in Trump's orbit. There's never been anybody like Elon Musk.

Stephen Overley (9:14)

Right, right.

Michael Cruz (9:15)

Elon Musk contributed a quarter billion dollars to Trump's reelection. That is a currency that carries lots of favor in Trump world. Unprecedented amount of influence and leash that he literally purchased.

Stephen Overley (9:33)

Right.

Michael Cruz (9:34)

That matters to Trump. The President has talked, repeatedly, talked about it just on Sunday at the rally here in Washington that I attended, about how he considers Musk a genius.

Stephen Overley (9:46)

Right.

Michael Cruz (9:47)

We need to protect our geniuses. Look, all this is not to say that Elon Musk could leave the vicinity of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue tomorrow in a huff.

Stephen Overley (9:57)

Right.

Michael Cruz (9:58)

But I wouldn't be surprised if they find a way to somehow make it work. And also, like Trump, Trump operates in leverage. He understands leverage. And you can't just tell Elon Musk to get the hell out of here the way you can tell almost literally anybody else. And so if Elon Musk wants to be around doing some things, Elon Musk will be around doing some things.

Stephen Overley (10:19)

And they both have a lot to gain from one another at this particular point. That could run out. But obviously, Trump is the one who has a lot of power to make decisions, and Elon Musk has a lot of influence and proximity to that power. So a symbiotic relationship between them for now.

Michael Cruz (10:36)

I mean, who's more powerful? Right? I mean, this, to me is. This is an open question. Trump is obviously, again, the President of the United States, but Elon Musk is more powerful than a small number of countries. He's definitely richer in the world, richer than many countries, more powerful than most countries, I would say, at this point. Like, for better or worse. Right. Interesting. On Sunday, Trump said something along the lines of, I was down watching Elon's rockets go up and come back, and Russia can't do that, China can't do that, United States of America can't do that, but Elon can do that. I mean, there is something sort of nation state for good and ill at this point about Elon Musk.

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Stephen Overley (11:58)

You've done a lot of reporting on Trump's inner circle. You know, you wrote this great profile of Susie Wiles, his now chief of staff for Politico. What's your sense of how Trump's inner circle folks like Susie Wiles think about Elon Musk?

Michael Cruz (12:13)

I think they understand what I was saying before, that it almost doesn't matter what they think about how he throws his weight around. He can. And as long as it helps us get to places we want to get, he's certainly worth having around. Right. This is not, I should say, a question I've specifically reported or tried to report to an answer, but it is my sense that he's worth whatever trouble he might bring as well. For now.

Stephen Overley (12:46)

Yeah, for now. Right. That's always. I think the caveat is, is for now, especially with someone like Trump who's, we know his opinion changes and, you know, the one thing we know for sure about Trump is sharing the spotlight is not his strong suit. And so your Elon's right. No, they both command of a lot of, a lot of attention in any room or on any social media platform. And so, you know, that's, I think that's part of the reason why so many people wonder if this is a collision course, just a matter of when. There was obviously a lot of quotes that made it into this story. 199 of them. I'm sure you reviewed a lot more. What's the one that stuck most with you?

Michael Cruz (13:24)

I'm the alpha in this relationship.

Stephen Overley (13:26)

When did he say that?

Michael Cruz (13:28)

During the dance at his wedding to his first wife.

Stephen Overley (13:32)

Really? Wow. Short honeymoon phase. What about that quote grabbed you?

Michael Cruz (13:39)

Well, it gets to what we were just talking about. He's the alpha in this relationship. And so that quote begs the question, can you have these two Alphas? Can you have one A and one B? It almost is antithetical to the idea of an alpha. Right. You can't. Who's going to be the bigger Alpha, Therefore, who's going to be the effective beta? He has always, from SpaceX to Tesla to his Acquisition of Twitter. I'm the alpha in this relationship. It is one of the, you know, and is on a finite list of kind of the operating principles of his lifelong M.O. i'm in charge. Can he maintain that mindset when he's working with the President, when he's working with the self styled American alpha that is Donald Trump?

Stephen Overley (14:27)

There was a quote in reading through the piece, one quote that stood out to me. I sort of did a double take. You know, Musk said, I've spent a lot of time in China and met with the leadership many times. The sheer number of really smart, hardworking people in China is incredible. There's far more of them there than there are here, in my opinion. And they've got a lot of energy, which to me sounded sort of both flattering and also cautionary, which maybe captures kind of this tightrope that Musk is walking between Trump and Chinese President Xi Jinping. Was that revealing to you?

Michael Cruz (15:04)

For sure. One of the interesting sort of contradictions, the tensions within what we are starting to see as Musk's overall worldview is kind of, in his own way, a deep patriotism. He's from South Africa, first went to Canada, became an American citizen, but really seems to sort of love many parts of, kind of the way the United States of America has exerted its influence around the world, but also is like incredibly multinational. Doesn't seem to draw, shall we say, imaginary borders between countries. I'm a global businessman. Go to China to do what I need to do, go anywhere I need to go to do what I need to do. And not even as discussed, limited to this planet. So how are you so global in your mindset, so transnational, but also so supportive of America first?

Stephen Overley (16:07)

Right.

Michael Cruz (16:07)

And these two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but there is this tension. I mean, we saw it play out even with some of the H1 visa, you know, discourse. It's like completely. And I don't want to take Peyton with too broad a brush. Obviously, the Trump coalition is kind of is broad, more broad than some people, you know, kind of want to admit, always has been, especially now. But there is a chunk of the Trump political coalition that has been displaced by globalization and understandably feel left behind and understandably looking for answers or even just to vent frustration about that. Often, though, the way that Elon Musk and others discuss this is in terms of this strict, almost brutal meritocracy. Like it doesn't matter where you're from, what your background is. Like, the strong survive, and not just survive, but like at the expense of the weak.

Stephen Overley (17:10)

Right. It's clawing your way to the top. Yeah.

Michael Cruz (17:12)

And so how do these two things work hand in hand? Can they? I mean, again, I don't think they are necessarily at odds, but they are kind of at odds.

Stephen Overley (17:22)

Right. There's a contrast there that, you know, is too big to ignore and seemingly too big to think it won't present itself at some point in the next four years.

Michael Cruz (17:33)

If one of the ways to reinvigorate the American economy or what have you is to open more doors for more particularly promising people from places that aren't Dubuque, Iowa.

Stephen Overley (17:48)

Right.

Michael Cruz (17:48)

That will kind of unavoidably run into the views and be at odds with the views of some not small chunk of some of the more ardent Trump supporters.

Stephen Overley (18:01)

Right. Well, listen, Michael, thank you for being here on Politico Tech.

Michael Cruz (18:05)

Thanks so much for having me. It was fun discussing Elon and Trump.

Stephen Overley (18:10)

Yes.

Michael Cruz (18:10)

It'll be interesting to watch.

Stephen Overley (18:11)

Interesting to watch, indeed. We'll be talking about it, so we'll have to have you back. That's all for today's Politico Tech. If you enjoy Politico Tech, be sure to subscribe and please recommend the show to a friend or colleague. And for more tech news, subscribe to our newsletters, Digital Future Daily and Morning Tech. Our managing producer is Annie Reiss. Our editors are Steve Heuser, Daniela Cheslo and Louisa Savage. I'm Stephen Overleigh. See you back here on Monday.