How a tech CEO and board game master sizes up DOGE

Summary

POLITICO Tech Podcast Summary

Episode Title: How a Tech CEO and Board Game Master Sizes Up DOGE
Release Date: March 17, 2025
Host: Stephen Overle
Guest: Matt Caulkins, CEO of Appian

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Introduction

In the March 17, 2025 episode of POLITICO Tech, host Stephen Overle delves into the intersection of technology and government efficiency with Matt Caulkins, the CEO of Appian. Known for his strategic mindset honed through his passion for board games, Caulkins brings a unique perspective to the ongoing discourse about leveraging technology, specifically artificial intelligence (AI), to streamline governmental operations. The episode also touches upon Elon Musk's ambitious government reform initiative, DOGE, and its implications for Washington's bureaucratic landscape.

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Guest Profile: Matt Caulkins

Matt Caulkins, the CEO of Appian, boasts over 25 years of experience in providing software solutions to federal agencies. Appian has been instrumental in significant tech advancements in Washington, including constructing the Army's internal internet and aiding in the implementation of the Affordable Care Act. Beyond his tech leadership, Caulkins is an avid board game enthusiast, a hobby that informs his strategic approach to business and problem-solving.

Notable Quote:

"Strategy games... They train the mind to look over a novel situation and ask yourself, what's the most important thing for me to achieve at this moment?"
— Matt Caulkins [02:11]

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Government Efficiency and the Role of AI

A central theme of the conversation revolves around the persistent inefficiencies plaguing the federal government. Caulkins attributes these inefficiencies to the sheer size of governmental institutions and the inherent unpredictability in decision-making processes, especially with frequent turnovers in key positions like Chief Information Officers (CIOs). Additionally, the traditional procurement methodologies are highlighted as significant barriers to innovation and competitiveness.

Key Discussion Points:

• Inefficiency in Government:
  "The federal government is a very large institution and any institution of this size would accumulate a lot of inefficiency."
  — Matt Caulkins [04:13]

• Procurement Challenges:
  Caulkins emphasizes the complexity of government procurement, noting its "word dense and precedent dense and rule dense" nature, which AI is uniquely positioned to address by processing massive amounts of textual and procedural data efficiently.

AI as a Transformative Tool: Caulkins argues that AI should not be relegated to auxiliary roles like chatbots but should be integrated as a core component of governmental processes. By doing so, AI can handle high-volume, strategic tasks, thereby significantly enhancing efficiency and reducing costs.

Notable Quote:

"AI is the most powerful digital worker ever invented. It's the most important change in the process industry in its history."
— Matt Caulkins [09:02]

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Discussion on DOGE and Elon Musk's Government Reform Efforts

Elon Musk's DOGE initiative aims to revolutionize government operations by injecting Silicon Valley's "move fast and break things" ethos into the traditionally slow-moving corridors of Washington. Caulkins acknowledges the potential of DOGE to drive modernization but cautions about the cultural clash between Musk's approach and the established governmental procedures.

Key Insights:

• Intentions Behind DOGE:
  "I appreciate the intention to make a more efficient government... It will need to be persistent to be valuable."
  — Matt Caulkins [10:29]

• Challenges Faced:
  The initiative is expected to face resistance due to its disruptive nature. However, Caulkins believes that over time, a reconciliation between DOGE's aggressive strategies and the government's cautious approach will emerge.

Notable Quote:

"We can't have an unstoppable force and an immobile object in perpetuity."
— Matt Caulkins [12:03]

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Opportunities in the Current Climate

With the reshuffling of governmental roles and the potential reduction in agency sizes, there arises a void for tech companies and talented individuals to step in. Caulkins sees this as an opportune moment for Appian to recruit skilled professionals displaced by DOGE's reforms and to further embed AI-driven solutions into government processes.

Key Points:

• Hiring and Talent Acquisition:
  Caulkins mentions that Appian is actively looking to hire experts, particularly those familiar with AI and governmental operations, to bolster their efforts in modernizing procurement and other critical functions.

• Clean Slate Advantage:
  A transitional period may provide the government with a "clean slate," allowing for the adoption of state-of-the-art technologies without the hindrance of existing technical debt.

Notable Quote:

"If we end up with a bit of a clean slate arrangement, it could actually be an opportunity for the government to move more quickly to a modern set of technologies."
— Matt Caulkins [15:15]

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Optimism for Future Modernization

Contrary to the prevalent cynicism surrounding government efficiency, Caulkins exudes optimism about the future of governmental modernization. He believes that the current disruptions, while challenging, present a unique chance to eradicate outdated practices and implement innovative solutions that can lead to lasting improvements.

Key Insights:

• Positive Outlook:
  Caulkins is not merely hopeful but genuinely believes in the potential for significant positive change, emphasizing the need to adapt and "recycle patterns" that no longer serve the government's best interests.

• Collaborative Efforts:
  Successful modernization will require a collective effort from various stakeholders, including governmental departments and the broader business community in Washington, to collaboratively develop and implement effective technological solutions.

Notable Quote:

"There are a lot of unhelpful patterns going on... I believe in recycling patterns. If the federal government is willing to shake off old patterns and invent new ones, I believe that's a largely good opportunity."
— Matt Caulkins [16:27]

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Conclusion

The episode of POLITICO Tech featuring Matt Caulkins offers a nuanced exploration of the opportunities and challenges at the nexus of technology and government efficiency. Caulkins underscores the transformative potential of AI when thoughtfully integrated into governmental processes and expresses cautious optimism about initiatives like DOGE spearheaded by Elon Musk. As Washington stands on the brink of significant technological disruption, voices like Caulkins' provide valuable insights into navigating this complex landscape to achieve meaningful and lasting reform.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Everything reminds me of a game... you have to do the best with the information you can get."
  — Matt Caulkins [02:11]

• "I have believed for 25 years that my priority was value, which is to say value delivered to the customer."
  — Matt Caulkins [03:10]

• "AI is the most powerful digital worker ever invented."
  — Matt Caulkins [09:02]

• "We can't have an unstoppable force and an immobile object in perpetuity."
  — Matt Caulkins [12:03]

• "There are a lot of unhelpful patterns going on... I believe in recycling patterns."
  — Matt Caulkins [16:27]

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and forward-looking perspectives shared by Matt Caulkins on the POLITICO Tech podcast, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the episode's core themes and takeaways.

Transcript

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[Stephen Overle]

Hey, welcome back to Politico Tech. I'm your host Stephen Overle. And I've got Doge on the brain again. But I mean, who doesn't? Elon Musk's government efficiency effort has been roiling Washington. In recent conversations on the podcast, Government reformers have told me Musk is looking for cuts in all the wrong places, that he could actually be saving billions of dollars. And if he changed the way the government buys stuff. Well, that's Matt Caulkins line of business. He's the CEO of Appian, a software company that has been part of key tech moments in Washington before, like building the Army's internal Internet and implementing the Affordable Care Act. Now Appian sells software that helps federal agencies buy stuff better. And Matt says we're in a rare Musk made moment to revamp government. On the show today, he tells me how. Here's our conversation. Matt, welcome to Politico Tech.

[Matt Caulkins]

Thanks, Stephen. Good to be here.

[Stephen Overle]

Now, you probably don't remember this, but I interviewed you 15 years ago. It was one of my first articles as a journalist.

[Matt Caulkins]

I, I was recently reminded of that.

[Stephen Overle]

I remember you're a board game guy.

[Matt Caulkins]

Yeah, that's true.

[Stephen Overle]

Strategy games.

[Matt Caulkins]

Strategy games, that's right. I play them and write them.

[Stephen Overle]

Let me start there. Then it feels like we're in a time where so many rules have changed. How do you think about strategy when you're not always sure what game you're playing?

[Matt Caulkins]

Yeah, first of all, everything reminds me of a game. And when you think about games enough, you come to a state of mind where everything looks like a game. But this moment especially looks like a game. You know, the biggest difference between reality and a game is that in a game you know the rules and in real life you don't. And that's why some people tend to be better at one or the other. In business, there's always unknowns, all right? And in life, always unknowns. And so the fact that the rules are changing, it means it's not a very good game. But you know, it never was there was always uncertainty in real life and you have to do the best with the information you can get. And it does, I think, train the mind a little bit to look over a novel situation and ask yourself, what's the most important thing for me to achieve at this moment?

[Stephen Overle]

And so when you think about that for yourself now, you know you've been selling technology to the government for some 25 years, right? You've seen a lot of ways in which this game can be played. What is your priority at this moment?

[Matt Caulkins]

Yeah, well, I often end up with the same conclusion when I'm asked a question like that. I have believed for 25 years that my priority was value, which is to say value delivered to the customer. I prioritize that above, above fame, above connections, above remuneration. I always go for that. And for better or worse, because we're not the most high profile company in Washington, but we always aim for value. And I see this as a moment again to make a radical demonstration of value using AI on top of government data. Something that would show dramatically that with enough technological capability in these times, you can do something amazing.

[Stephen Overle]

Speaking of technological capability, I mean, the government has this longstanding reputation for kind of waste and inefficiency, and that is front and center in our political discourse right now. Why does that persist? Why does it seem like technology hasn't fixed any of these problems yet?

[Matt Caulkins]

Yeah, first of all, the inefficiency is real. It is out there. Unfortunately, we've done our best to work against it for all these years, but it lingers. And there's a few reasons why it does. First of all, the federal government is a very large institution and any institution of this size would accumulate a lot of inefficiency. So they just can't avoid it to some degree. But then secondly, the way in which the government takes decisions and spends money is itself conducive of inefficiency. The decision makers rotate relatively frequently. The CIOs are out of their jobs every couple of years and replaced by somebody else. So there tends to be a little bit less of a long term vision than there might have been in the industry. And secondly, the procurement methodology makes it difficult for a disruptor or someone with a better offering to be competitive.

[Stephen Overle]

Yeah, you know, I had two ex government employees on the podcast recently, folks who worked at like U.S. digital Service and where their job was kind of to take tech and make government better. Both of them zeroed in on procurement, how the government buys stuff as the main reason for inefficiency. And waste. It sounds like you. You see it the same way I do.

[Matt Caulkins]

And yet I feel like we have the answer. I feel like we are within, you know, now's the time to. To improve procurement dramatically. We saw this problem a couple years ago when we created a suite of functionality to address the procurement issue. So progress is happening in procurement specifically, but we're also poised for the next big leap, which is procurement is, as you know, a very word dense and precedent dense and rule dense endeavor. There's just more content than any human being could process in a lifetime that is pertinent to doing a good procurement. And fortunately, the answer is here. AI is the perfect answer to understand a mountain of text and rules and precedent and outcomes. AI is perfect for this. So we spent seeing this coming. We spent years collecting public data sets one slice at a time, and then running AI on top of them. And it is publicly [e-mail] and you can see how it will help forward the ability of a procurement agent to write a new procurement, fashion it according to precedent, make it, you know, more. More resistant to challenge, make it more efficient, emulate the best outcomes they've ever gotten. We have applied AI to public data sets, and there are few better places in the world to apply AI right now.

[Stephen Overle]

One of the things I think lost in all this conversation around Doge and about people in government being fired and rehired is this idea that technology and specifically artificial intelligence are something that people want to deploy to make the government more efficient. I guess my question to you is like, is AI really a panacea? You know, it seems like people often just kind of say, you know, throw AI at the problem, that'll fix it. And I am maybe skeptical.

[Matt Caulkins]

Oh, I'm skeptical too. And I think that's where a lot of the error lies, in today's mindset around AI, the thinking that that AI by itself will just solve a problem. And the trouble is, the complicated problems, the meaningful problems in business and in government, are not solved by any single entity. They're addressed in a very complex way. Like, look, when you think about AI in the workplace, do you think about chatbots and copilots? Right? That's what most people think about. And those are perfect examples of standalone AI. It basically stands to the side and waits to be asked a question. It's a helper. And helpers are fine, except that they won't generate the kind of value we all need from AI, given the amount of investment and talking and innovation. We want AI in the heat of the action, we want AI in the center of things, doing the most important work, the most high volume work. Right. The most strategic, the mission. Right. You won't get that with a chatbot. If you want AI to tackle the most important work streams in your institution, you're going to need to make it part of a complex team. Because complex teams are how we approach the most important topics. We automate them with complex processes. And we have many different actors, some digital, some human, and they take many different steps. It's a more complicated use case than asking AI to answer questions, whenever you give it a question. And I think that's the big divide right now. We know that AI is powerful, but most people think it's not all that useful because the only way they've seen it used is as a helper, not as a worker.

[Stephen Overle]

So the technology is there already, you think, or does it still need time to develop?

[Matt Caulkins]

AI is powerful enough right now. In fact, it's happening right now. It's creating incredible value. Where people have been willing to integrate it as a worker into a process, then it shoulders a burden exceptionally well. And it creates efficiency, it creates accuracy, it creates customer satisfaction, it reduces costs. It is extraordinary. It's the most powerful digital worker ever invented. And it's its rise to prominence is the most important change in the process industry in its history. AI as a worker is transformative to the power of process. So the answer, the quick answer is yes, and it's happening right now. However, most people aren't doing it yet. They're still thinking of AI as a one and done kind of an answer to a problem. And that's fine. It's just that the only problems you can answer in one and done style are small problems.

[Stephen Overle]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries, you wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first. You know, you mentioned earlier that sort of this is the moment for this kind of efficiency, this kind of reform. Elon Musk is someone who might agree with that sentiment, obviously. What do you think of what Doge is doing right now? I mean, what is Doge getting right and getting wrong?

[Matt Caulkins]

Yeah, well, I think even Doge would admit that they're going to get some things wrong. If you read about Elon, you come across his statement again and again that he knows he's making mistakes at the speed that he moves. He acknowledges that there will be some mistakes and they'll have to be redone. And that's just part of the process. And I Think that that self awareness is going to be helpful for Doge because they are inevitably going to be making some mistakes at the rate that they are. MO Let me say that I appreciate the intention to make a more efficient government. We could benefit a lot from persistent, serious efforts to streamline and modernize our government, especially with technology, because the government does tend to be a little bit behind the curve in terms of the adoption of the most powerful technology. You know, we've got high security requirements, it's difficult to bid. There's a lot of reasons why we're typically not a leading adopter of new technology. So this is constructive. It will need to be persistent to be valuable. All right, so the jury is out as to how valuable it will truly be. But a modernization impulse would be a valuable thing around Washington.

[Stephen Overle]

Is it something that just needs more time to see how it plays out? I mean, there's a lot of criticism about Elon Musk and about the way that they've approached efficiency, even from folks who want to fight waste, right? Want to eliminate unnecessary government spending. They look at this and sort of see a mess. You know, is that unfair to judge?

[Matt Caulkins]

Well, this is the Silicon Valley attitude. And in Washington, they're not familiar with it. This is move fast and break things. Literally, stuff's getting broken. This is not how Washington typically works. Washington is. Is in shock just trying to figure out how it's going to work and how to hold on to the programs they like. And I think that the two sides are going to have to come to terms. I see already that there will be a reconciliation. We can't have an unstoppable force and an immobile object in perpetuity. And you can already see it in the statement we heard. I think it was a week ago by the President that he expected his departmental secretaries to carry out Doge's mission instead of Doge to carry it out across the whole government. You could feel the mediation going on between these contrasting impulses. So something's going to get ironed out. I think what's going to happen is that the efficiency modernization torch is going to be largely passed to the departments themselves, to the agencies, and then the agencies. And this is a bigger transition than it seems like because the agencies don't operate with a chainsaw. The agencies operate in partnership with this whole business community around Washington. And so when the torch is passed to the departmental authorities, it really gets passed to the entire community. And now we're all going to put our heads together and figure out how to modernize and make the government efficient. That at least is what I hope.

[Stephen Overle]

You know, one of my colleagues here recently interviewed Mark Cuban, the businessman investor, who said he's like fielding business pitches right now from ex government employees. And he says that with these DOGE cuts, there will create a void in the government for companies to fill. From a tech perspective, which you and I have both been around Washington a long time, we know federal contracting is not the sexiest Shark Tank pitch type of business. And so that was fascinating to me. I mean, what kind of business opportunity do you see here if you're being sort of opportunistic right now?

[Matt Caulkins]

Yeah, well, I agree with him to some degree. I think now is a wonderful time to be hiring some terrific talent that is displaced or feels displaced in the federal government. As you know, we're right on the Beltway, so we're in the neighborhood, and we are a fast moving, disruptive software company. And so some people who maybe worked in AI in the government might feel that they had a good home here, wouldn't have to move, just commute to a different place. And so we're definitely open for hiring. I wouldn't say I'm reviewing business plans because we've already got some, but we're hiring.

[Stephen Overle]

You know, it occurs to me as we're watching all of this play out with DOGE and what feels like a lot of slashing and burning, that you have to think about what comes next, right? You're going to have presumably fewer people, fewer agencies, maybe fewer contractors or different contractors. But big chunks of the government and how it used to work will kind of be ripped out from this. From a practical standpoint, what does it actually look like to reform and rebuild that, you think?

[Matt Caulkins]

You know, sometimes I work with an organization that feels that it is behind the times, right? They'll think they missed the last technology wave, they missed a revolution. They're behind the times, and now they have a clean slate. And they feel that this gives them a disadvantage. And my response to that is typically you misunderstand. That gives you an advantage right now, if you have a clean slate, it actually means you have less technical debt, you have more freedom to adopt the best technology. In a way, technology can be your impediment if it builds up too much. And so if we end up with a bit of a clean slate arrangement, it won't be so disadvantageous as you think. It could actually be an opportunity for the government to move more quickly to a modern set of technologies.

[Stephen Overle]

You know, as we've been talking, you sound very optimistic. I feel like I don't talk to a lot of optimistic people these days about where our government is at and where it's headed. And cynically, part of me is, you know, wondering, okay, is it because you're a federal contractor and, like, you are trying to sell to the government and make money, or you really see actual opportunity here?

[Matt Caulkins]

I actually am optimistic. I don't just sound that way. I feel that way. I think that there's opportunity in what's happening. And I also just think it's good to move people's cheese once in a while, right? Just make them adapt to a new circumstance. There probably are a lot of unhelpful patterns going on. A lot of contracts that shouldn't be continued, a lot of patterns that should change. I believe in recycling patterns. And so if the federal government for one moment in a generation is willing to shake off old patterns and invent new ones, I believe that's largely a good opportunity.

[Stephen Overle]

Well, Matt, I appreciate you being here on Politico Tech.

[Matt Caulkins]

Stephen, this is my pleasure. Thanks so much.

[Stephen Overle]

That's all for today's Politico Tech. If you enjoy Politico Tech, please subscribe and recommend the show to a friend or colleague. For more tech news, subscribe to our newsletters, Digital Future Daily and Morning Tech. Music in our show comes from the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Our managing producer is Annie Reiss. I'm Stephen Overlea. See you back here on Thursday.