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POLITICO Tech
How to break up with your smartphone
00:20:29
Policymakers around the world are debating how to regulate our use of technology, from addictive algorithms to harmful content. But often missing from the conversation is the control that everyday people wield over how much technology is let into our lives. On POLITICO Tech, host Steven Overly calls up digital minimalism advocate Jose Briones to talk about breaking up with smartphones and social media, and embracing a low-tech lifestyle.
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- [00:01]
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- [00:32]
Stephen Overle
Hey, welcome back to Politico tech. Today's Tuesday, January 7th. I'm Stephen Overle. I'm starting today's show with an admission I am addicted to my smartphone. Now, as a tech reporter, being tethered to the thing comes with the job, but I burn a lot of time watching videos, scrolling social media and reading the news. It's bad. And I imagine for many of you your screen time is pretty bad too. So this year I've resolved to spend less time on my phone. That's a pledge that Jose Briones made himself a few years ago. Jose is a self proclaimed digital minimalism advocate and a content creator who regularly publishes on YouTube, Substack and Reddit. And this issue isn't just personal. Policymakers around the world are debating how to regulate our use of technology more than ever. They talk about the problems with addictive algorithms, the attention economy, and harmful content. But often missing from those conversations is the fact that we still wield some control over how much technology we let into our lives. So on the show today, Jose tells me how he cut back and how others can do the same. Here's our conversation. Jose, welcome to Politico Tech.
- [02:07]
Jose Briones
Thank you for having me. It's a privilege to have this conversation.
- [02:11]
Stephen Overle
With you all, so I'm going to start by being vulnerable here. You know my average daily screen time is currently 11 hours and 8 minutes. I don't know if that is high or low, but it does make my stomach turn when I think about it. What is the worst that you've heard?
- [02:29]
Jose Briones
So I think I have seen examples of people using their devices for 16 to 18 hours and that is an extreme case. Of course, I think most people gravitate somewhere around four to seven hours a day, which is what your average user consumer would do. I want to challenge your notion of 11 hours because I like to say that not all screen time is created equal and we have to start differentiating between work time, things that you actually had to do, and leisure time, which is the apps that you decided to go into on your free time. So analyzing that in a macro Perspective, quote, unquote, would be helpful because I used to be in that camp where I used to spend about 12 hours, 13 hours a day on my smartphone. But some of those hours were replying to emails or producing content. So some of that was unavoidable. So it is a little bit of a balance that we have to catch ourselves and not just focus on the number, but the quality of the apps that we're accessing in that number of hours.
- [03:41]
Stephen Overle
Got it. That makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of people do feel they spend too much time on their phone, but our smartphones now are kind of like a limb, both in that we're attached to them constantly, but also we rely on them for important tasks, you know, some of which, like you just said, are unavoidable. How do you reconcile those two things? I mean, what is the problem here as you see it?
- [04:03]
Jose Briones
That's an excellent question. There is a podcast that I usually reference to called philosophy bites. Around 2016, this is almost 10 years ago now, they had this podcast entitled the Extended Mind. And in that podcast, they kind of went through the idea that our phones were becoming part of our minds. They were extensions of ourselves. So they had a lot of personal information, contacts, they have a lot of work information, payment cards. I mean, they are extremely useful, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. However, when we start going into the dependency factor, when you feel like you cannot operate in the world without a smartphone, then I think that's when it's starting to become a problem. So now our phones contain so much information about ourselves that we started associating a lot of our tasks and sometimes our value with that device. So the likes that I get, the retweets that or re access nowadays, I don't know which one is the best term. But whatever it is that we're getting this dopamine feeling life that we're getting from our devices, when we start associating our value, our popularity, or just even our development as a person with that device, I think that's when we're starting to get into the wrong area and we need to make some corrections. And for me, those corrections are lifestyle driven instead of device driven. I think people can live meaningful lives with smartphones and also with basic phones like flip phones. But it's all about what kind of lifestyle do you want to have.
- [05:46]
Stephen Overle
I want you to dive into the lifestyle choices and changes a bit. For me, you know, this concept of digital minimalism, for instance, and the use of dumb Phones, I mean, how do you define that to start?
- [05:59]
Jose Briones
So when I started with digital minimalism, I thought that it was the device, that the problem was rooted in the device that I used. So I switched from an iPhone to a Light Phone 2, a very minimal device. And I thought that all my problems were going to be solved. But the reality is that my lifestyle was very online driven. I enjoyed consuming content. So instead of consuming content on my iPhone, I went to consume content on my laptop. Now, so even though my maybe entry point was a little bit more difficult, for example, instead of having it in my pocket now, I had to open up in a cafe to watch this YouTube video or Netflix or whatever it is that I wanted to consume. I was still engaging in those activities because my lifestyle was driven by technology and by digital content for a considerable number of hours during my day.
- [06:54]
Stephen Overle
Right.
- [06:54]
Jose Briones
Over time, I started to understand that if I wanted to have a more balanced perspective, I needed to start encountering more offline hobbies. So I picked up running, I picked up going to the gym, I picked up also reading a little bit more, re engaging with that. And slowly my screen time dwindled down to a more manageable time frame, which, you know, somewhere around three hours a day. And I was happy with that. Over time, I've also made other adjustments. So for example, instead of depending on my smartphone to be my tap to pay system for the bus, I requested a physical card. So I have an NFC tac card for my public transportation whenever I go on public transportation. So I started to replace some of those things because I wanted my lifestyle to be less driven by tech. It takes time, it takes effort, it's not overnight. And I've made that mistake where I, where I thought it was going to be overnight, but it's not. It takes intentionality and you planning ahead of time and reengaging, rediscovering some of these old technologies like MapQuest, for example.
- [08:07]
Stephen Overle
MapQuest, yeah, that's a throwback for me for sure. I mean, this concept of like using dumb phones, as you said, you know, it sounds like you're not saying people should give up smartphones entirely. And I do think that would be hard for a lot of people. I mean, did you have a period where you like went back to using a Nokia device or a flip phone or how, you know, and what is your phone now capable of or what does it do?
- [08:31]
Jose Briones
So to this day I have run into different configurations, I started trying different things. And that's what I encourage people to do experiments in their lives to See what is best, what's the best tool for your current situation? I still use the light phone too. I have found myself to be very happy with the feature set that it has. It has music, it has podcasts, it has a calendar. That's pretty much all I need when I am in my city. So when I'm in my city, when I live in Denver, in the Denver area, when I'm here, I'm in control of my environment. I know everything that happens around this area. I can find the streets. I don't need a gps. I don't need as many utilities as a smartphone gives me. But whenever I travel, I do bring a smartphone with me. And the reason why is because smartphones are great tools. They're extremely useful when you're in a new city and you need to find a new restaurant or you need to find some reviews, or you need to find how does the public transport system work, how do I get an Uber or a Lyft? But that's one day, three days, maybe a weekend that I'm away or at an extreme time when I'm visiting another country a week at a time, that's not going to derail my purposes. That's not going to make me addicted again to all of these apps. Whenever I come back home, I just put it away and I go back to the tools that give me the most life satisfaction.
- [09:52]
Stephen Overle
And in your day to day when you're not using a smartphone, I mean, have you ever been in a situation where you think, you know, damn, I wish I had an iPhone right now. Like, you know, it would be so much easier if I could pull up gps. Do you ever have, I guess, FOMO for technology? In a way?
- [10:06]
Jose Briones
I think in the beginning I did. Of course I did, because all of my contacts, all of my interactions were with people online. You know, I depended heavily on messenger or WhatsApp for communication. Just texting overall was something that I enjoy doing with my friends. However, I would say that yes, I have been in situations where I needed a smartphone and I didn't have one. And what happened is I just appealed to the other humans in my area. So I remember one time I was at the dealership for my car. We were fixing our Toyota Camry and I was at the Toyota dealership and they said, hey, our system for cards is not working. The only way to pay is with the QR code. And I was like, well, I don't have a smartphone, but what am I going to do? I need to pay you to get my car back. So I just asked somebody and I said, hey, could I use your phone? You know, could I use your phone for this? And they did. They lent me their phone and, you know, I paid and I went about my day. And the reality is that most of the time, you know, people would say like, well, if you had had a smartphone, you know, this wouldn't have happened and you wouldn't have to ask a stranger.
- [11:15]
Stephen Overle
Right.
- [11:16]
Jose Briones
But even in that connection with that stranger, you know, maybe that could have developed into something more, Something. A better connection, a friendship. Sometimes we miss those opportunities to have more human interactions nowadays because we're more focused on our own desires, on our own perspectives and on our own silos to a certain degree, because we don't step out and maybe cause some discomfort to the other person.
- [11:44]
Stephen Overle
It's very easy to withdraw into your technology.
- [11:47]
Jose Briones
Yeah, that's correct.
- [11:48]
Stephen Overle
I know that you, as you said, sort of make a lot of content around this concept of dumb phones, of digital minimalism. Tell me a bit about, you know, your subreddit. I know you have a substack and website. I mean, how much reach, how much traction is this idea getting that you've seen?
- [12:08]
Jose Briones
That's a great question. And I think it has grown over time. I think statistics wise, the subreddit has grown quite a lot in the past few years. So I think we are close to 100k members. I think it's about 90,000 members right now on the subreddit. And I believe when I started moderating it in 2020, 2019, 2020, it was maybe about 7,000 people. So in the past four or five years, I think people have gotten to the point where they're looking for alternatives. And it has grown. The channel has a fraction of that, about 30,000 people. I think in the community and in the substack, again, that's more relatively new. And I've seen it grow from zero to about 1500 people that get my newsletter. But I think it's growing and people are not necessarily wanting to decry smartphones completely and separate themselves from technology 100%. I think that's a very small sub segment of the community. But I think most people want balance. They want sustainability. They want something that they can engage with, be productive, and once they're done with that, get back to their lives. And there are a lot of companies listening and looking to introduce more products in this space. So I think it's going to continue growing. I mean, this year, the word of the year was brain rot. That is an indicator that people are feeling this weight on their lives, and they may want to find some solutions.
- [13:45]
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- [14:16]
Stephen Overle
I don't know if you can sort of characterize your following or this audience, but I'd be curious kind of, who is part of this movement? You know, is it older folks who sort of have nostalgia for the days where we weren't constantly on our phones? Is it like young digital natives who have spent their entire lives on these devices and now regret it? Kind of. Who, who have you seen really take this up?
- [14:39]
Jose Briones
I would say there are three common factors or people that show up again and again and again. The first one is definitely nostalgia. People who embraced flip phones back in the 1990s or 2000s, and they, you know, I want to go back to that. I just want to go back to that simpler life. It's a little bit nostalgic. It's cool, it's retro. That's definitely one person. The second person is someone who has had difficulties with their engagement with technology and they feel like it's getting out of control. So they want to regain some perspective and they want to find a solution that works for their current situation. And I would say the final group is parents, people who are concerned about their children getting into this hyper technological world where in the future, in the near future, you will not have your phone in your pocket, you will have it in your glasses. For example, with the new technological advances that are happening, people, I think, especially parents, they want their kids to experience a little bit more the offline world first and to be proficient in that before they get to this crazy digital world that is filled with everything. And whereas adults can discern between what's good, what's bad, what's dangerous and what's not, children often cannot, and that can be extremely dangerous. So a lot of parents are part of this community because they want to find something that is a sustainable introduction to technology for their kids.
- [16:12]
Stephen Overle
That makes a lot of sense to me. You know, we talk a lot on this show about the risks that smartphones and social media pose to kids. You know, addictive features or harmful content. And frankly, I Think a lot of those same things also apply to adults as well. But yes, as you said, kids have less discernment. I wonder, do you think larger tech companies will adopt some of these features or some of these principles into their devices, those that some of the smaller companies, like you mentioned, light phone, for instance, have sort of tried to popularize?
- [16:47]
Jose Briones
I think there is a conflict of interest for big companies because they gain so much from our data, where our money is not as valuable as the data that they extract from our devices to sell to advertisers, to create new products and to start making those decisions for the future. So I think there is that little bit of a conflict of interest that I do not see them resolving. However, I do see certain companies getting a little bit closer to a middle ground, saying, okay, if you are in a certain age bracket or if you want this for yourself, we will give you access to X amount of features and we will leave out Y features. So, for example, we will leave out the social media, we will block it with a software blocker, or we will help you in the introduction of screen time to your kid. So I definitely see this conversation happening even with big players. One of the closest ones that is coming to releasing a device or a concept of a device is hmd, the makers of the Nokia devices and tcl. They kind of are a big. A bigger company and they are thinking about introducing devices in this digital minimalism vein or protecting kids. So I definitely see big players starting to create options for the market, but I do not see them completely transitioning to this and only this because there are some. There's money left on the table when you leave a lot of this data that is personalized just out there for somebody else to grab.
- [18:22]
Stephen Overle
So if I want to get started, if I want to sort of embrace kind of this lifestyle you're talking about, what's the first step you suggest people take?
- [18:31]
Jose Briones
That's a excellent question. So the first step that I would say is to reduce. Reduce is the first principle that I would take. I would look into all of the apps that I have installed. Research has shown us that most People have about 80 to 100 apps on their phone, and all of those apps are not necessary. So let's just start by cutting back those that do not give us value. And then after that, you can reorganize. Once you have reorganized your life, your calendar, your expectations, everything that you're looking for towards the future, it is easier to adopt these principles. So reducing reorganizing will be the first areas you don't need to buy a dumbphone to do those things, although a dumb phone will automatically reduce and it will prompt you to reorganize some things because you will need to think in advance more often.
- [19:24]
Stephen Overle
Well, Jose, I appreciate you being here on Politico Tech.
- [19:27]
Jose Briones
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure, and I hope this conversation continues.
- [19:34]
Stephen Overle
That's all for today's Politico Tech. If you enjoy Politico Tech, be sure to subscribe. And for more tech news, subscribe to our newsletters, Digital Future Daily and Morning Tech. Our managing producer is Annie Reese. Our producer is Afra Abdullah. I'm Stephen Overlee. See you back here tomorrow.