Sen. Ron Wyden on tech, tariffs and Trump

Summary

POLITICO Tech Podcast Summary: Sen. Ron Wyden on Tech, Tariffs, and Trump

Release Date: January 16, 2025

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Introduction

In the January 16, 2025 episode of POLITICO Tech, host Stephen Overle engages in a comprehensive discussion with Democratic Senator Ron Wyden. The conversation delves into Wyden's new book, "It Takes Chutzpah," his legislative legacy in technology, concerns over the evolving surveillance state, the implications of President-elect Donald Trump's tariff policies, and the increasing influence of Big Tech leaders like Elon Musk. The episode provides listeners with an in-depth understanding of the intersections between technology, policy, and politics from Wyden's seasoned perspective.

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Wyden's New Book and the Essence of Chutzpah

Timestamp: [01:48]

Wyden introduces his latest work, "It Takes Chutzpah," highlighting the importance of extreme confidence and audacity in politics. He credits his personal background and family history for embodying this trait, which has been pivotal throughout his 44-year career in Washington.

Notable Quote:

“Chutzpah is homegrown. [...] I ran for Congress, you know, had this dream at 29, because nobody was going to bat for the senior citizens, and most towns didn't have anything, and maybe they'd have a lunch program. I said, I can make a difference.” — Sen. Ron Wyden [21:17]

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Legislative Legacy: Defending Section 230

Timestamp: [02:54] - [06:49]

Senator Wyden discusses his instrumental role in crafting Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, often referred to as the "26 words that created the modern Internet." He defends its core principles, emphasizing the protection it offers to online users and smaller groups, enabling movements like MeToo and Black Lives Matter to gain traction without being suppressed by Big Tech.

Wyden addresses common criticisms linking Section 230 to the rise of hate speech, clarifying that such issues are fundamentally rooted in the First Amendment rather than the legislation itself.

Notable Quotes:

“The Authors of Section 230 are responsible for the increase in hate speech and I looked at it and I said, we never really follow this stuff up and complain about something.” — Sen. Ron Wyden [04:08]

“The vast majority of hate speech is not about Section 230, it's about the First Amendment.” — Sen. Ron Wyden [04:44]

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Surveillance State and Data Privacy Concerns

Timestamp: [09:55] - [13:18]

Wyden expresses deep concern over the burgeoning surveillance state, highlighting the dangers posed by both government agencies and data brokers exploiting personal data. He underscores the need for robust oversight and legislative action to protect privacy and civil liberties in an era where technology can intrude into personal lives uninvited.

He cites incidents like the unauthorized monitoring of Planned Parenthood sites as examples of data misuse, advocating for stricter controls to prevent such abuses.

Notable Quote:

“Data is basically technological gold. It is the most valuable thing. And I've been trying to get some controls... We got a long way to go.” — Sen. Ron Wyden [10:19]

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Tariffs, Trade Policy, and Economic Impact

Timestamp: [14:27] - [16:37]

In addressing President-elect Trump’s approach to tariffs, Wyden criticizes the administration's "universal tariff" strategy as detrimental to American workers and small businesses. He argues that indiscriminate tariffs can lead to increased costs for consumers and potentially trigger inflation, emphasizing the importance of targeted trade policies over blanket measures.

Wyden warns that such policies disproportionately harm those without significant political or economic influence, contrary to Trump's assertions that tariffs would be absorbed externally.

Notable Quote:

“Trump's across the board approach... is going to get slammed by the Trump across the board tariffs.” — Sen. Ron Wyden [15:35]

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Big Tech's Influence and Antitrust Advocacy

Timestamp: [06:49] - [18:58]

Wyden voices concerns over the increasing consolidation of Big Tech companies and their growing sway over political processes. He criticizes figures like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk for aligning too closely with political leaders like Trump, potentially undermining democratic institutions and accountability.

Highlighting his efforts in antitrust initiatives, Wyden illustrates the adverse effects of corporate consolidation on prices and consumer choice. He recounts the Senate Finance Committee's successful opposition to a major food merger as a model for addressing similar issues in the tech sector.

Notable Quotes:

“Making changes... is a major step towards the reconsolidation of communications in a few hands of very large players like Zuckerberg and Musk.” — Sen. Ron Wyden [07:21]

“I've been trying to get some controls, for example, on the intelligence side to keep them from allowing all our personal data to go to China... data brokers are some of the best and best-funded lobbyists in America today.” — Sen. Ron Wyden [10:19]

“The consolidation trend... we've not done much in antitrust law for a long, long time, decades. We ought to be doing more.” — Sen. Ron Wyden [08:38]

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Personal Insights: The Power of Chutzpah

Timestamp: [20:28] - [21:17]

Reflecting on the concept of chutzpah, Wyden attributes his boldness to his family's legacy, particularly his mother's courage in confronting the looming threat of Hitler during World War II. This ingrained sense of determination and willingness to challenge the status quo has fueled his longstanding commitment to public service and legislative achievements.

Notable Quote:

“My chutzpah is homegrown. [...] Several decades later, AOC did the same thing in New York in terms of taking on an incumbent.” — Sen. Ron Wyden [21:17]

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Conclusion

Senator Ron Wyden's appearance on POLITICO Tech offers a multifaceted examination of the pivotal issues at the intersection of technology and policy. From steadfastly defending foundational Internet legislation like Section 230 to advocating for stronger data privacy measures and scrutinizing the undue influence of Big Tech, Wyden underscores the necessity of principled bipartisanship and relentless advocacy in shaping a fair and secure digital future. His personal narrative of chutzpah serves as both inspiration and a call to action for policymakers and citizens alike to engage proactively in safeguarding democratic values amidst technological advancements.

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This summary captures the essential discussions and insights from the POLITICO Tech episode featuring Senator Ron Wyden, providing a structured and comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the original podcast.

Transcript

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[Stephen Overle]

Hey, welcome back to POLITICO tech. Today's Thursday, January 16th. I'm Stephen Overle Chutzpah. It's a Yiddish word meaning extreme confidence, audacity, even. And Democratic Senator Ron Wyden says it's a key trait in politics. Well, with President elect Donald Trump returning to the White House in just a few days, Wyden tells me he's still mustering chutzpah. Some 44 years after Oregon voters first sent him to Washington. Wyden reflects on his political career in a new book out this week called It Takes Chutzpah. And on the show today, Wyden delves into the tech parts of his legacy, from writing a law that made the modern Internet to to warning about the rise of the surveillance state, plus his views on Trump's plan to impose sweeping tariffs, Elon Musk's plan to shrink the government, and Big Tech's plan to woo the incoming president. Here's our conversation. Senator Wyden, welcome to Politico Tech.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Great to be with you again.

[Stephen Overle]

I want to chat about your book, It Takes Chutzpah. There are a lot of examples in this book where you write about working with Republicans to find compromise and to pass legislation. I'm curious to hear from you. As we sit here on the precipice of a second Trump administration, what lesson on political compromise is on your mind?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

You have to pick up on each other's good ideas. For example, I just had had a discussion about energy a little bit ago, and I pointed out that the approach that really broke it open for us is we said we want a lower carbon future. That was very important to a lot of Democrats and me and the environmental movement. And when I talk about it, I say we want to do that in the context of lowering energy prices and making energy more affordable. So you find a path to take each other's good ideas and not say, well, let's just go with my approach, but try to find some common ground. That's what Chris Cox And I did in section 230. And we've got a chapter on it in the book.

[Stephen Overle]

I want to talk about that chapter. You know, you talk a lot about Section 230 of the Communications Decency act, which is known often as the 26 words that created the modern Internet. When I talk to most lawmaker these days about Section 230, they say it needs reform. Do you feel like the last defender of Section 230 in Congress?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, people say that, you know, people often come up to me and basically say when you're not around, when I've vanished from the earth or something, we're all coming in and changing it. Look, I think the key Principles of section 230 are as valid today are when we wrote it. Now, that is not to say that any law is perfect. I mean, my goodness, I mean, every. And that's why the founding fathers made sure that no successor Congress was bound by the prior Congresses. There's always a chance for change. But on the core kinds of questions, what we've said since the very beginning, this has always been about users. What are we going to do to make sure that we address the concerns of users? And we put the focus on people who didn't have power and clout and had a chance to be heard this way. And we talked about knitting groups when we were just starting out. And we're Talking about the MeToo movement and Black Lives Matter and all kinds of other groups that wouldn't have a voice if it wasn't for section 230.

[Stephen Overle]

You cited those examples there. And there are also examples of, you know, the Internet giving rise to hate speech and propaganda and sort of other kind of ills of the Internet, if you will. And I wonder, you know, as many years as we are now removed from 1996 when that law initially passed, do you see a need for some change? Are there any changes you would support?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Remember that the vast majority, well over 90% of hate speech is not about Section 230. It's about the First Amendment. And if I could just kind of take a minute to give you an example. One of the first stories that came out in the New York Times about Chris Cox and I had a giant picture of the two of us. You know, I went to school on a basketball scholarship. Made me feel like I was the tallest player on the court. It was like I was 7ft tall and, and a picture of Chris. And they said something like, the Authors of Section 230 are responsible for the increase in hate speech and I looked at it and I said, we never really follow this stuff up and, you know, complain about something. We talked to the Times and I said, you know, don't want to be difficult here. I mean, first of all, we're strong supporters of the First Amendment. But if Section 230 votes vanished off the face of the globe, you wouldn't have the 26 words that people said created the Internet. The vast majority of speech would still be there because it goes forward as a result of the First Amendment, not Section 230. And the New York Times two days later, actually published a very long and specific response, basically saying they were wrong. So people, I think, are going to, as we get into this issue, are going to have to start looking at some of the particulars. And I know sometimes in Congress it's like everybody's unscathed by the facts, but the vast majority of hate speech is not about Section 230, it's about the First Amendment. And I'm a strong supporter of the First Amendment, a and B. That's also part of the reason why Chris and I felt so strongly about the moderation provision that was part of it. I mean, the principles we Talked about in 230, for example, personal responsibility, mean one of the things that the parties are coming together around today is more personal responsibility. Individuals being responsible for their conduct. That essentially is what Chris and I talked about. You're the person who generates the content, you post it, you're responsible for it, not the publisher.

[Stephen Overle]

You know, I'm curious there you talk about individual responsibility, the responsibility of these platforms and these companies. You know, recently Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, as I'm sure you saw, announced a bunch of changes to their content moderation policies. You know, they're no longer going to fact check posts. They're going to cut back on some of their AI filtering around speech, particularly as it relates to immigrants or trans people. Does that give you any doubt, I mean, about whether these Internet companies should be trusted and should be given these kind of broad protections?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, I've always had a difference between big tech and the kind of people that we wrote the bill for. The big tech guys can always take care of themselves. I will tell you. To see these big tech companies codying up to Trump looks to me like a major step towards the reconsolidation of communications in a few hands of very large players like Zuckerberg and Musk, which is, by the way, the way it was in the media before the Internet. So I found what Mark Zuckerberg was doing Very troubling. Making changes, in fact, checkers. What is that about? I mean, that's about as basic an accountability and transparency tool as you can, you know, imagine. And I really do think that. And I watched it for days and the whole, you know, discussion about it, and, you know, it seems to me it was also a message of, from Trump to all the other guys that, you know, if you're big and you toady up to us and you go along with all our stuff censoring and all the stuff we want to do, you know, you can be part of the handful of big communications operators that we end up with, and it wouldn't be a surprise to see Musk in that group and Zuckerberg and the other people who were such big investors in the Trump campaign.

[Stephen Overle]

Does that worry you?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Absolutely. I. I think, frankly, the consolidation trend, I've been a supporter of saying we haven't done much in antitrust law for a long, long time, decades. We ought to be doing more. And by the way, it makes a big difference. One of the things I'm proudest of in the last year, as I led the effort in the Senate side to round up people to support an effort to make sure that this food deal, Albertsons and Kroger's, didn't go forward. If that had gone forward, that would have been the food merger in American history. And we saw the consequences in our world because these companies were all big players in the Pacific Northwest. And of course, you know, the consolidation always tends to jack up prices, whether it's in food or health care or communications.

[Stephen Overle]

Right, right. I mean, is there anything for Congress to do on that front? You know, with these tech CEOs cozying up to Trump? I mean, obviously we can dust off the antitrust laws.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

You bet.

[Stephen Overle]

How would you do that? I mean, what's the antitrust argument?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, I'm not on the Judiciary Committee and don't profess to be the biggest expert, but I think I just gave you an example of one major effort with food prices that's really paying off, and we're going to keep looking at it, and I'll have some more to say about it down the road.

[Stephen Overle]

Got it. You write in the book about your concerns over the development of a surveillance state and that the government and big tech and sort of both potentially abuse all of the data generated by our digitally connected lives. I talk to a lot of folks for this podcast. Many of them do say we live in that surveillance state and that Congress should be doing more to kind of protect privacy. Civil liberties. How do you respond to that?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, it's the Wild west out there in terms of data brokers. You know, my God, and there is so much data out there. I mean, data is basically technological gold. It is the most valuable thing. And I've been trying to get some controls, for example, on the intelligence side to keep them from allowing all our personal data to go to China and places that are hostile to the United States. We got a long way to go. These data brokers are some of the best and best funded lobbyists in America today. And I'm going to stay after it until we get some oversight. And it's in practically every sector. I don't know if you guys followed what we were doing in terms of Planned Parenthood, but, you know, this summer we found that something like 600 Planned Parenthood sites were, you know, monitored for their colocation, you know, data, and it was sold to various people. It really was a scam and potentially it's going to be great damage coming from it.

[Stephen Overle]

You know, there have been bills before the Senate and before Congress more broadly to address data privacy and to kind of curtail data brokers. Is there a path to compromise in this Congress on that legislation?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

We'll see. I mean, Donald Trump has not been involved in these issues. I mean, he's been more likely to be associated with people who are benefiting financially from it. But we'll see. I mean, political change, in my view, particularly in tech, and you see it from our big win years ago that we talked about pipa, sopa, you know, for example, as political change is rarely top down, it's almost always bottoms up. And that's particularly true because of the way viral communications move in the world. One other point with respect to privacy that is so relevant, the typical American so often says to themselves, I'm not doing anything wrong, so I don't have anything to worry about in terms of these surveillance things and these privacy things and the like. Well, you know, the fact is these new technologies and these new communications tools are so big and so encompassing, that's really not the measure. I mean, look at what happened with the United crash in health care. I still have constituents come to me and they're not getting adequate reimbursement from United. That was like a third of all Americans having their health records and data affected. So this is going to increasingly be, in terms of the intersection of policy and politics is making the case out there that because of technology today, this theory that you're not affected just because you're not Doing anything wrong is just incorrect because technology can basically get to places it never used to be able to get to. In other words, there was a measure of protection for your personal privacy because not very long ago, there were places that technology couldn't get to. That's not true anymore. And it's only going to continue with AI.

[Stephen Overle]

Is there an argument, you think that Trump or his Cabinet, as we see these confirmations start to happen, would be open to that would kind of get them to pass some sort of legislation in this area?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, I certainly hope that the Commerce Committee gets into it. I'm trying to do everything I can on the intelligence side because at one point I asked Sheryl Sandberg in an open hearing, isn't privacy a national security issue? And the answer is absolutely. And yet the intelligence agencies are gobbling up all kinds of data on people.

[Stephen Overle]

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[Senator Ron Wyden]

Hard to install?

[Stephen Overle]

No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some from my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install hall of fame, son. They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world. Blinds.com is the goat.

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[Stephen Overle]

You also are the ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee. And there are two policy battles on the horizon kind of immediately in Washington, and those are taxes and tariffs. And as a former trade reporter, I could talk about tariffs all day, but I'm curious.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, let's talk about yesterday, because yesterday made a farce out of tax policy. You know, Trump basically trotted out some kind of external revenue service or something. And, you know, it was trying to sort of fudge over what he was, you know, really doing, because what this is all about, particularly his approach on tariffs, because he's calling for the universal tariff, is basically attacks on working people and small businesses. And it would be one thing if he was looking at tariffs in a targeted kind of way. If you consider trade to be a toolbox, which I do, tariffs could be in the toolbox. I would support that. But what he's doing with this across the board approach and trying to gaudy it up a little bit with a different name doesn't ignore the reality, and that is that families and workers and people without power and clout are going to get slammed by the Trump across the board, tariffs.

[Stephen Overle]

Is that something you think your Republican colleagues in Congress are supportive of, or is there some sort of path to compromise?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

You know, this ridiculous idea is only about 12 hours, you know, old. But, you know, Trump does this a lot. You know, he tries to come up with something that, you know, he thinks people are going to pay attention to. The reality is he has lied about tariffs again and again. He's always saying they're going to be paid by foreigners. That's just not true. They're going to be paid by American workers and American small businesses. As I pointed out, no matter how many times he tries to rebottle it or recharacterize it, it's the same thing. He's hitting workers and, and I hope that he'll see how damaging this is. I think it also could trigger more inflation. And, you know, he ought to be willing to say, I'm listening to these arguments about targeted tariffs. That's something that there's a history of working well in a number of these instances. But across the board, tariffs are a prescription for hammering workers and small businesses, and I'll fight it.

[Stephen Overle]

We were talking earlier about some of these tech leaders who have cozied up to Trump. And in particular, you know, Elon Musk obviously is sort of the biggest and most influential in many ways. Among them. Is he now like a negotiating partner for Congress? I mean, it seems like he is going to be wielding a lot of influence over how this new White House thinks about policy.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Yeah, he's, he's acting like he's got an election certificate. You know, there's no question about it. He's trying to, you know, insert himself into meetings and the like. I'm waiting for this moment where Donald Trump says to him and says to the American people, we got one president and it's me. It's not me and Musk. And I think it may get old.

[Stephen Overle]

We saw this with the budget negotiations at the end of last year where Musk really kind of weighs in on X and sort of sends out these comments that can sink political negotiations. Do you feel any sort of pressure from that? And do you think your colleagues feel pressure from that?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, I'm speaking out against it. Let me give you an example. Mike Crapo and I work very hard to rein in the middlemen in health care. You know, so much of the $4.5 trillion we spend is now middlemen like these pharmacy benefit managers in health care PBMs. Mike Crapo and I got a 26 to nothing vote in the Senate Finance Committee to rein these people in. We went, in effect, to the end of the year. Bill, Senate, House, ds, ours. We all came together, had a very strong package. Trump, basically, for a full week, talked to anybody who would listen and talked about how serious he was about going after middlemen and reining them in and all the rest. And then when it came right down to it, Musk and Trump broke up the progress that we made, and it was kind of like they were porch pirates. I mean, we had a finished deal. It was all done, ready to go, and they came in and killed it. And I'm sure there was some big interest group that, you know, talked to him about it. But it's an example of kind of what the real consequences are.

[Stephen Overle]

Is there leverage that Democrats will have these next two years for contending with Trump and with Musk? I mean, obviously, Democrats don't control either House or the Senate. Is it gonna be two years of sort of complaining, arguing, but not having really the leverage to affect real change?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Let's take the example that I just gave you. I mean, two days after the Musk Trump coalition killed the PBM provision that all the Ds and all the Rs and both the House and the Senate had agreed on, I went home, went to a small pharmacy. Everybody said, how fast can we come back and go after this again? This is an issue that is hugely important to the American consumer, hugely important to taxpayers. It wasn't like they were given up. And, you know, I think, you know, this kind of question people have of, you know, well, it's all hopeless and all the rest, in addition to giving you examples and pointed out, you know, Pippa and Sopa. You know, I had, like, 40 some senators on the other side of the. But nobody had ever gone to the grassroots. And we ended up getting what I think is still one of the Internet victories for the ages, because we mobilized in the space of two weeks, a movement that really hadn't gotten involved in politics that way. And I think we'll do it again. I've had supporters across the political spectrum over the years, and we write about it. I mean, bipartisanship, Steve, is not about taking each other's crummy ideas. Bipartisanship is, at its best, principled bipartisanship, where you take each other's good ideas.

[Stephen Overle]

I am curious if you think this Department of Government Efficiency is a good idea. You know, Elon Musk obviously has these grand notions of kind of reforming government and reducing spending. Are there good ideas in there that you can kind of Latch onto.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I find this a very implausible kind of exercise. I mean, I think there are clearly areas I've been trying with Senator Sanders and a variety of people. Chuck Grassley's been interested, you know, try to get an audit out of the Pentagon, you know, because they get hundreds of billions of dollars a year. No transparency and accountability. So there's areas where work needs to be done. But I find that this Trump and Musk and various others, you know, ideas pretty implausible.

[Stephen Overle]

Senator, my grandmother used to have a sign in her apartment. It said, never underestimate the power of chutzpah. And so when I saw the title of your book, It Takes Chutzpah, I was sort of reminded of that Chutzpah, for those who don't know, sort of means extreme confidence, almost audaciousness. Where does your chutzpah come from?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, I really picked it up and I said something about it in the dedication of the book. You know, my mother, along with a small number of other Jewish women, really deserve a big part of the credit for fighting Hitler, because a lot of their husbands and parents and grandparents basically just thought that Hitler was kind of a kook and a nut, and it was all just kind of go away. And my mom, who had the chutzpah, said, you guys are just not paying attention to the truth. This guy is going to be a disaster, and millions of people are going to get hurt. And we lost family at Theresienstadt and Auschwitz. And I got it from my parents. And my dad was one of the Richie Boys, the famous German kids who volunteered for our army and wrote the propaganda pamphlets they drop on the Nazis. And I think my. My chutzpah is homegrown. And you look at what I've done in my life. I ran for Congress, you know, had this dream at 29, because nobody was going to bat for the senior citizens, and most towns didn't have anything, and maybe they'd have a lunch program. I said, I can make a difference. And I'm sort of exhibit A. And by the way, several decades later, AOC did the same thing in New York in terms of taking on an incumbent.

[Stephen Overle]

Well, Senator, thank you for being here on Politico Tech.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Thanks. Let's do it again. Steve, good to be with you.

[Stephen Overle]

That's all for today's Politico Tech. If you enjoy Politico Tech, be sure to subscribe. And for more tech news, subscribe to our newsletters, Digital Future Daily and Morning Tech. Our managing producer is Annie Reese. Our producer is Afra Abdullah. I'm Stephen Overle. See you back here tomorrow.