← POLITICO Tech
POLITICO Tech
The Bachelor has a lesson for Washington
00:20:16
Nick Viall became famous after appearing on The Bachelor and The Bachelorette — but used podcasting to turn reality TV stardom into lasting relevance. So last week, YouTube brought The Viall Files host to Washington to teach political staffers how to tap online creators to spread their message. Coming off of last year’s “podcast election,” Viall says the medium has gained new levels of media credibility and that candidates need to win over listeners like his in order to win votes. On POLITICO Tech, Viall joins host Steven Overly to discuss podcasting’s breakout moment and why not every politician is cut out for it.
Loading summary
Transcript55 lines
- [00:03]
Stephen Overle
You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first. Do you ever feel the pull to talk about politics?
- [00:19]
Nick Viall
All the time. Because, Well, I mean, I really think that politics is maybe the most popular and most dramatic reality TV show out there.
- [00:28]
Stephen Overle
There's a lot of overlap between reality TV and politics.
- [00:30]
Nick Viall
I wish it was less like, you know, as a citizen, as someone who likes reality tv, it's very easy to get sucked into the drama of politics.
- [00:42]
Stephen Overle
Hey, welcome back to Politico Tech. I'm your host, Stephen Overle, and last week, I met a reality TV star in real life. This season on the Bachelor, Nick Viall got famous from appearing on a couple of seasons of the Bachelor and the Bachelorette.
- [00:59]
Nick Viall
I could prove to America that if you don't give up on love, that eventually you'll find it.
- [01:04]
Stephen Overle
Two shows that, honestly, I don't watch because when it comes to escapism, for me, I'm more of a late night doomscroller. But when flipping through video after video, I have come across the Vial Files, Nick's signature podcast. It's one of three shows he hosts, and some of its most popular clips on TikTok get hundreds of thousands of views. There are even some with more than a million. And his company, Envy Media, produces multiple shows. So Nick has spun reality TV stardom into lasting relevance through his successful production company. But I was still a little surprised when YouTube reached out to tell me Nick was coming to Washington to lead a masterclass on podcasting for comms, directors, and other political staffers. Now, a former Bachelor contestant lecturing a bunch of hill dwellers may seem odd at first. It did to me, until you think back to the 2024 election. Donald Trump appeared on Joe Rogan's podcast. 56 million people watched on YouTube alone. It very well may have changed the outcome of the election, and it's now rocking the mainstream media. More traditional journalists like me are trying to replicate the formula of online more human conversation, fewer soundbites, and I think it's going to fundamentally alter how people get their news and information. Nick thinks so, too. We talked about why podcasting is breaking out now, why not every politician is cut out for it, and why he thinks that could determine who wins and loses future elections. Here's our conversation. Nick, welcome to Politico Tech.
- [03:00]
Nick Viall
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
- [03:02]
Stephen Overle
So you get a call from YouTube, come to Washington, talk to a bunch of political folks about podcasting. Are you surprised? Are you curious? Is it just another day, I guess.
- [03:11]
Nick Viall
A little bit of both. I was both not surprised. Intrigued for sure. It was a first time for me. I think what's really cool about having my show and having it grow is that it has from time to time brought me in some really cool rooms and giving me some really unique opportunities that I never expected to do. Washington D.C. is obviously, you know, in some regards the center of this country, you know, and obviously a lot of policy and a lot of decisions are made here. And so whether I'm that political or the show's not political, I find it very interesting to see that people in positions of true power are now seeing the benefit of the space that we've really been enjoying for a while now.
- [03:50]
Stephen Overle
2024, the election has been referred to as the podcast election. You know, of podcasters in the briefing room at the White House. I mean, what does it say about the power of podcasting, if you will, that it has sort of had this impact?
- [04:03]
Nick Viall
As someone who comes from the reality TV space, I often talk about how that experience gave me what felt like almost infinite access but almost zero credibility. And I think in a lot of ways that's similar to how people felt about podcasts in general is that like anyone can start a podcast, the barrier to entry is almost zero. And so the ability to go on a podcast is great. But in terms of the podcasting space, I think it has had to continue to establish its credibility in the overall like media landscape, you know, and I think at first it was like podcasts seen as this kind of like not something any real public figure or celebrity or politician would bother to do. It'd be something that, you know, your non celebrities would do is like almost like a cosplaying of being in like regular media. But I think you're seeing shows like mine and others like grow to a level of having real significant impact. And not only that, I think people are just starting to realize that like this is where people are going for their content. You know, whether it's news, whether it's entertainment. You're not waking up and watching GMA anymore. You're not going to bed watching late night television. And if you still have that routine, chances are you're watching my show on YouTube because it's on demand, right? And I think with legacy media, like, I think they're trying to adapt to more traditional media, but it's, it's less accessible, it's harder to find what I tell like publicists that I'm trying to book talent. Like we move the Needle. I've had podcast episodes, have millions of listens, but in addition to that, the impressions they have online gets into the billions. And I think them calling it the podcast collection, I think it's the first of probably many. They call it the podcast election because it's, I think, the first time that podcasting has really got a seat at the table, so to speak, in terms of a legitimate stop to try to get your message out. And now it has that credibility that it didn't have for so long, and I still think there's a lot more credibility to be gained, and I think it's only going to continue to grow.
- [06:01]
Stephen Overle
You know, you talk a lot on your shows about relationships. You talk about pop culture. Do you ever feel the pull to talk about politics?
- [06:08]
Nick Viall
All the time. Because, Well, I mean, I really think that politics is maybe the most popular and most dramatic reality TV show out there.
- [06:16]
Stephen Overle
There's a lot of. There's a lot of overlap between reality TV and politics.
- [06:19]
Nick Viall
I wish it was less like, you know, as a. As a citizen, as someone who likes reality tv, it's very easy to get sucked into the drama of politics. And so I definitely sometimes wish I had the guts. But at the same time, I do know for my particular show that my audience really does appreciate that is an outlet and a disconnect for some of the other, more like political shows that are dealing with real life topics, in some cases, life or death for some people. And I think some people really just need what feels like a breakaway from what almost feels like this, like a world that almost feels too heavy. And I think it's important to have out there, you know, and what I hope my show is, is in a world that feels very divisive, where there's no common ground. I think we need things that if you take the politics out of it, you can still agree on, you know, whatever your favorite reality TV character is, your pop culture take or whatever. I want to unify people rather than.
- [07:11]
Stephen Overle
Push people away on a culture podcast. Do politicians make a bad guest?
- [07:15]
Nick Viall
We've only dabbled briefly. We had Meghan McCain on not too long ago.
- [07:20]
Stephen Overle
How'd that go?
- [07:20]
Nick Viall
I thought it went well.
- [07:21]
Stephen Overle
Okay.
- [07:22]
Nick Viall
I don't often read comments, but it didn't create enough waves where it was like, oh, man, should we have done that? So I'd like to do more of it. It's important for me that if we lean in more of it, we need to be nonpartisan. So we need to have a mix of both the left and the right, because I want to be able to represent all the people who listen to my show. And so I want to do it in a way where no one can accuse me of being on one side because we've pissed both sides off. I am a big believer in, like, the power of podcasts to humanize its guests. And I think any politic is going to connect with their base a lot better the more human they can act.
- [07:57]
Stephen Overle
I think, you know, some of them struggle with that.
- [08:00]
Nick Viall
They do. And, you know, I think President Trump's probably. Regardless of what you think of him and regardless of his policy, I think one of his greatest strengths is to act like the guy who you work with, who might be a little crass and unpolished and tell a funny joke. And I think that is hard for people to dislike on a human level when you. They remind you of a family member of some kind. And I think that's a very powerful tool.
- [08:25]
Stephen Overle
Do you think his Joe Rogan podcast changed the way political types think about podcasting or look at it as a messaging tool 100%?
- [08:32]
Nick Viall
Yeah, I think it impacted the election. I think it impacted podcasting in general. And I think, like, before, I think it gave a lot of credibility to the space because I think people saw the impact it had on the overall election. I mean, people sitting there debating whether Kamala made a mistake by not also going on Joe Rogan's podcast. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, when it comes to politicians, like, if this person is in power and they're making decisions that are ultimately affect my family's lives, they want to know, is that person? Do they understand me and my plight, my family's needs? And the more human they are, the chances are the more willing they will connect with that person. And if they connect with that person, then there's a sense of that person's got my back.
- [09:15]
Stephen Overle
Do you think a lot of politicians miss that about podcasting or miss that about communicating 100%?
- [09:20]
Nick Viall
I think podcasts and your more traditional celebrity as well. The playbook used to be, if you're going to do a press tour, you know, you go on like Ryan and Kelly, you do gma, you do late night television, and you just have to have a couple anecdotes, right? And yeah, it's like, oh, that's funny, or that's. That made me laugh. But, you know, did you really connect with anyone? You know, and maybe it's the same bit always. And it's like, oh, that was a really funny bit, but it still felt performative. Because it is a literal performance. And I think with podcasting, it's very hard to perform on a podcast. You really just have to be yourself and you really have to share what you actually feel because it's a long form format. And so I think the challenge for some celebrities and politicians is are they capable of doing a long form. But I think that's also a great distinguisher between the ones who are and the ones who aren't. And the more popular podcast is getting, it's going to force the people who aren't comfortable doing it to either get better at it or they're going to lose a seat at the table.
- [10:22]
Stephen Overle
Right. As a journalist who's worked in different mediums, I agree with you. I think it reveals a lot of depth. Right. It's like the depth of someone's knowledge, their character, all of that. Like the longer form, the more they have to talk. Yeah. It can be very revealing.
- [10:33]
Nick Viall
Absolutely.
- [10:34]
Stephen Overle
Should every politician have a podcast?
- [10:36]
Nick Viall
No. Yeah, I mean, because I say that because, you know, the barrier to entry is easy, but it's hard to be successful. I've seen a lot of celebrities fail at having podcasts because you really have to be dedicated to it. It's work. And to be successful, you have to put a lot of time into it. I do think if you have a team and enough of time, even if your goal isn't to have the largest show out there, I do think it can be a place that if your fans or constituents or whoever they are want to go to hear more of you, it can be that it's probably a lot more effective to just have them do other, more successful podcasts that have an established audience, that have an established reach and incorporate them into your press playbook rather than coming out with your own. And I think to that end, because there's still a ton of different podcasts, you can do larger ones that are like, you know, my show very much, while not traditional media, is structured to almost compete with traditional media. But what's cool about a podcast, too, is that you can get more niche. You know, you can talk to sports fans, you can talk to moms. So you really can target various more niche groups in a very effective way through podcasts, because every genre, every niche, has several podcasts and several very successful ones.
- [12:00]
Stephen Overle
Your data is like gold to hackers. They're selling your passwords, bank details and private messages. McAfee helps stop them. Secure VPN keeps your online activity private. AI powered text scam detector spots phishing attempts instantly and with award Winning antivirus, you get top tier hacker protection. Plus you'll get up to $2 million in identity theft coverage, all for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit Mac Effect cancel anytime terms apply. I know you said, you know, when you first launched your show, you were sort of seeing yourself as a competitor to the Tonight show or Jimmy Kimmel Live. Are creators like yourself their own lane of media? Is this a new iteration of a kind of media that's always existed?
- [12:45]
Nick Viall
Yeah, I think probably a little bit of both. When I say competition, it's still like, you know, because when I'm trying to book talent, the bigger celebrity, the more traditional of a team they have. And so, you know, more traditional teams have more traditional playbooks now. And so I'm still trying to do that education, you know, with various people. But yeah, I also think that at the same time, whoever your listener is, right, like, they only have so much bandwidth in their day to consume whatever they're going to consume.
- [13:11]
Stephen Overle
Right, right.
- [13:12]
Nick Viall
And so I guess to that end, it is a little bit of a competition because, like, chances are if they more hours are spending listening to my show, the less time they have listen to others and they have other things they're doing with their lives and work and job and family and things like that. And so I'm trying to make the most interesting type of show because if they're going to listen to anything, I want them listening to my show.
- [13:33]
Stephen Overle
You know, you also made a comment as a journalist I thought was interesting, which is, you know, you said you're not a news show. You don't have the same responsibilities of a news reporter, for instance. And this is something journalists now talk a lot about. As more podcasters land interviews with people in power, whether that's politics or business, whatever, is there a responsibility to fact check or hold people accountable? You know, does your audience expect that sort of thing?
- [13:57]
Nick Viall
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. You know, for, for us, for example, we're not regulated by any type of formal standards like a journalist or the fcc, but, you know, we have, we kind of have our own standards. You know, for us, for example, we talk a lot about pop culture and we talk a lot about people in pop culture. And so I decided I didn't want to be a show that's talking about rumors and gossip. I wanted to talk about either stories that are out there, stories that the people we're talking about are platforming on their own, and that kind of makes it fair game to have an opinion or if they're on a TV show, we're discussing the show. But like, we don't want to speculate rumors and things like that. I think, you know, if you are a journalist, there is a certain level of expectation that I have of you as someone who's not.
- [14:42]
Stephen Overle
Right.
- [14:42]
Nick Viall
You know, and I think as long as you don't pretend to be something you're not, you know, for example, one of my shows is a show called Ask Nick. People call in and share their problem or their story. They're asking my advice, right? There isn't an episode that goes by where I don't say, I'm not a therapist.
- [14:58]
Stephen Overle
Right.
- [14:58]
Nick Viall
Take this. Just my opinion, right. Take it or leave it. That gives me a lot of bandwidth. But I guess that me being upfront about that, it gives my not only person calling in, but the person listening kind of an honest approach of how they want to consume that information. I think it comes down to a little bit of that. I also think, you know, I was, I was talking to my mother in law, she's a very proud Democrat and we were just talking about media in general and just talking about can people trust various media platforms. She has an opinion of X, I'm.
- [15:29]
Stephen Overle
Sure you might imagine. Yeah.
- [15:31]
Nick Viall
And I just said, listen, like it would be nice, I think if, you know, I think we used to, whether it was true or not, but I used to think we used to be able to watch the nightly news and assume that what we were receiving was just the facts, you know, and now news has become this thing. Is this the news? Is this editorial? Like sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. I think it'd be great if we had a trusted news source. I think it would be. But now I think we really have to kind of fact check on our own. We have to be willing to spend 10 seconds Google searching something.
- [16:03]
Stephen Overle
A lot of people don't take that step.
- [16:05]
Nick Viall
Exactly. A lot of people don't take that step. But I think we are in a place where almost the responsibility is falling on the consumer to do that, to do that work. Because I think, I think right now media is having this kind of fight between legacy and new media. And I think that's in some ways watered down the standards for some people who used to hold themselves to higher standards.
- [16:26]
Stephen Overle
Right. You were talking earlier about credibility. Right. The credibility of podcasters and how this past election, for instance, really did sort of legitimize the medium in some ways. I wonder, as you think ahead, sort of, you know, the future role for podcasters. And creators, especially in our politics and our media. What does that look like to you?
- [16:44]
Nick Viall
I think you're going to see the cream rise to the top. You know, the best performers are going to establish themselves, you know, as more mainstream options. And I still think you'll have people start new podcasts. A lot will come and go. I. I'm a big believer in competition. I think competition is great. It keeps me on my toes. There's always a new podcast being launched every week. There's always a new pop culture podcast. There's always a new relationship podcast. And so it really keeps me and my team, you know, focused on refreshing our show, changing our show. And that's what's great also about the podcast space is that you can constantly adapt and change it. You know, I think you just continue to see it become a space where politicians, bigger celebrities will not necessarily just choose to go, but will be required to go. And if you really want people to connect with you or someone you represent, you're going to have to do that, because I think people will start noticing the ones who do and noticing the ones who don't. And the ones who don't, I think, will be seen as, quite frankly, there are a lot of conversations about, could Kamala do what Trump did on Joe Rogan podcast? And so whatever you thought, whether you agreed with that or not, that was the conversation. It was centered around, could this person talk for as long as they did and maintain that level of credibility or likability that the other person did on that side? And so I think people will be able to debate that, and they will use that as a measuring stick for the people they are, you know, fans of or they represent.
- [18:15]
Stephen Overle
Right. It's like the old adage in politics of like, would you want to have a beer with this candidate?
- [18:20]
Nick Viall
Sure.
- [18:20]
Stephen Overle
Do you want to listen to a podcast?
- [18:21]
Nick Viall
And that's really what it is. I mean, that's what a podcast is. It's kind of like having a beer with your favorite person. That's my goal when I interview someone, especially for our going deeper episodes, it's a very much long form with one guest to just talk about life. What. What are they passionate about? What are they interested in, what are they watching lately, what worries them about life, et cetera, et cetera. I want my audience to feel like they're in a room with us having a conversation. I don't want to feel like I'm interviewing them. I want them to ask me questions. I want us to get to know each other a little bit. More. I want us to discuss ideas and thoughts and feelings. And then again, that allows people to really connect with whatever conversation you're having.
- [18:59]
Stephen Overle
Well, Nick, thanks for being here on Politico Tech.
- [19:01]
Nick Viall
Thanks for having me.
- [19:05]
Stephen Overle
That's all for today's Politico Tech. For more tech news, subscribe to our newsletters, Digital Future Daily and Morning Tech. Music in our show comes from the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Our managing producer is Annie Reiss. Philip Froebos helped produce today's episode. I'm Stephen Overlevel. See you back here on Thursday.