The billionaire who wants to buy TikTok for the people

Summary

POLITICO Tech Podcast Summary: "The Billionaire Who Wants to Buy TikTok for the People"

Release Date: December 2, 2024

Introduction

In this compelling episode of POLITICO Tech, host Stephen Overlea engages in an in-depth conversation with Frank McCourt, the visionary behind Project Liberty. McCourt presents one of the most ambitious plans in the tech industry: purchasing TikTok to reshape the Internet into a decentralized platform where individuals, not big tech companies, own and control their data.

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Project Liberty’s Vision for a Decentralized Internet

Frank McCourt outlines Project Liberty's mission to revolutionize the Internet by decentralizing data ownership. He emphasizes the importance of scale in achieving this vision, using the acquisition of TikTok as a catalyst for widespread change.

“Project Liberty is to reimagine the Internet and how it works... scale is required to do that.”
— Frank McCourt [02:16]

McCourt envisions a future where users have the choice to participate in an intranet that prioritizes their control over their identity and data or remain on platforms that surveil and scrape their information. This choice, he believes, will drive mass migration to more user-centric platforms.

“Choice is a good thing. I'm very confident that given that choice, people will migrate like crazy.”
— Frank McCourt [02:56]

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Navigating Political Dynamics: The TikTok Acquisition Amid Trump’s Presidency

The episode delves into the political landscape surrounding TikTok, particularly with the transition of power to President-elect Donald Trump. While Trump has indicated no intention to ban TikTok, his stance introduces uncertainties regarding the potential sale of the platform to Project Liberty.

“He hasn't said anything about not forcing a sale. He's talked about not banning it, and we're in agreement on that.”
— Frank McCourt [03:27]

McCourt clarifies that the goal is not to ban TikTok but to purchase it as a community-driven initiative to foster a better version of the Internet.

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Overcoming Technological Barriers to Data Ownership

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the technological changes necessary to empower individuals with data ownership. McCourt draws parallels between evolving infrastructure in traditional utilities and the need for a bottom-up approach in redesigning the Internet.

“We need to attack it at the source... giving people that agency and that control so that they are able to now be a person on the Internet.”
— Frank McCourt [04:13]

He highlights the importance of interoperability between platforms, allowing seamless communication and data sharing without surveillance.

“Imagine an intranet where it's, you know, verifiable human beings... that alone will be a massively different Internet.”
— Frank McCourt [04:56]

McCourt also references Project Liberty's upcoming demonstration of interoperability between platforms, marking a significant milestone in achieving a decentralized Internet.

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Consumer Attitudes: The Desire for Change Amid Continued Platform Use

Stephen Overlea brings up a survey showing that while millions continue to use platforms like TikTok and Facebook daily, there is an overwhelming desire for change in how these platforms handle data.

“We heard some survey results earlier talking about how people overwhelmingly want change from social media and how their data is handled.”
— Stephen Overlea [09:43]

McCourt responds by comparing digital migration to physical human migration, emphasizing that people seek alternatives when existing conditions become intolerable.

“People migrate when they have a place to go... by the way, the existing intranet started out very clunky... it's very close.”
— Frank McCourt [10:14]

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Implementing Change: Challenges and Strategies

Addressing the challenge of disrupting entrenched big tech businesses, McCourt asserts that Project Liberty is committed to enforcing change regardless of resistance.

“I'm not going to do it. We're going to do it. That's really critical.”
— Frank McCourt [14:31]

He categorizes potential resistance from big tech into manageable segments and envisions a vibrant, fair commercial ecosystem emerging from decentralized data ownership.

“It's a vibrant, vibrant, a commercial ecosystem. It's going to be much more fair and it's going to be much more deliberate.”
— Frank McCourt [14:31]

McCourt also criticizes the current data ownership models employed by big tech, questioning the morality and legitimacy of their control over user data.

“Is it because I clicked on those cookies mindlessly? Is that informed consent? I say no, you can't own someone else.”
— Frank McCourt [17:05]

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Philosophical Foundations: Data Ownership as a Human Right

McCourt delves into the philosophical underpinnings of Project Liberty's mission, framing data ownership as a fundamental human right aligned with American values of freedom, agency, and individual rights.

“Should we own ourselves or not? Whose data is it?... we own ourselves and a decentralized version of all this, decentralized generative AI.”
— Frank McCourt [17:45]

He contrasts the vision of a democratic, decentralized Internet with authoritarian models, particularly referencing China's surveillance-driven Internet as antithetical to the values Project Liberty seeks to uphold.

“China,... they surveil everyone. They have a political ideology that's autocratic and centralized... completely dissonant with the political ideology that I understand this country is built on.”
— Frank McCourt [17:50]

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with McCourt reiterating the critical need for a fundamental overhaul of Internet infrastructure to align technology with democratic ideals. He underscores that technological advancements should support human rights and individual autonomy rather than entrenching centralized power structures.

“We need to be deliberate in fixing the tech so it bends to our belief system and what we stand for.”
— Frank McCourt [17:55]

Stephen Overlea wraps up the episode, acknowledging the significant movement Project Liberty represents in the ongoing discourse about data ownership and Internet governance.

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Key Takeaways

1. Decentralization is Crucial: Empowering individuals to own and control their data is essential for a healthier Internet ecosystem.
2. Scale Matters: Acquiring a platform like TikTok is seen as a strategic move to catalyze widespread adoption of decentralized Internet principles.
3. Political Factors Play a Role: Government stances, such as that of President-elect Trump on TikTok, can significantly impact technological initiatives.
4. User-Centric Solutions: Future technologies must simplify data ownership, making it accessible and manageable for the average user without adding complexity.
5. Ethical Imperative: Data ownership is framed not just as a technical challenge but as a moral imperative aligned with democratic values.

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Notable Quotes

• Frank McCourt [02:16]: “Project Liberty is to reimagine the Internet and how it works... scale is required to do that.”
• Frank McCourt [04:13]: “We need to attack it at the source... giving people that agency and that control so that they are able to now be a person on the Internet.”
• Frank McCourt [14:31]: “I'm not going to do it. We're going to do it. That's really critical.”
• Frank McCourt [17:05]: “Is it because I clicked on those cookies mindlessly? Is that informed consent? I say no, you can't own someone else.”
• Frank McCourt [17:45]: “Should we own ourselves or not? Whose data is it?... we own ourselves and a decentralized version of all this, decentralized generative AI.”
• Frank McCourt [17:55]: “We need to be deliberate in fixing the tech so it bends to our belief system and what we stand for.”

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This episode of POLITICO Tech offers a visionary look into the future of the Internet, advocating for a shift from centralized data control to a decentralized model that prioritizes individual ownership and autonomy. Frank McCourt's insights present a roadmap for achieving a more democratic and user-centric digital landscape.

Transcript

[Stephen Overlea]

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[Frank McCourt]

Walmart plus members get early access to our hottest deals. Join now and get 50% off a one year annual membership. Shop Black Friday deals first with Walmart plus see [e-mail] hey, welcome back to POLITICO Tech.

[Stephen Overlea]

Today's Monday, December 2nd. I'm Stephen Overlea. There's no shortage of billionaires with big ideas for reshaping the Internet. But Frank McCourt has maybe one of the boldest I've heard. Frank wants to create a more decentralized Internet where a handful of big tech companies do not hold all the power and where individual people like you and me own and control our Data. Back in 2021, he spent $100 million to create an organization called Project Liberty to push this vision. And I sat down with him for a live podcast taping during Project Liberty's recent summit on the future of the Internet. One of the things Frank told me is that people need to see a better Internet in order to buy into it. And so Project Liberty has also put together a consortium to purchase TikTok, the app that Congress effectively put on the auction block over concerns that its parent company has ties to China. Now, with President elect Donald Trump coming back to the White House, there are new doubts about whether that sale of TikTok will happen and therefore about Project Liberty's bid to buy it. On the show today, my live conversation with Frank about TikTok controlling our own data and why he thinks the Internet can be a less miserable place. Here's our conversation.

Hello, everybody. I'm Stephen Overlea. I host the Politico tech podcast. Pleased to be here and pleased to be joined by Frank McCourt for a exciting conversation. Frank, I want to start by talking about TikTok. Project Liberty is trying to bring together a group to buy TikTok. Tell me, what's your elevator pitch for the people's bid for TikTok?

[Frank McCourt]

Yeah. Yes, quite simple. I mean, Project Liberty is. I hope by this time people are sorting out what the mission is. And it's to reimagine the Internet and how it works. And as I mentioned in my opening remarks, scale is required to do that. So we know the tech works. There is a reimagined Internet. It's happening. Of course, it needs iteration and lots of people involved in getting it right. But the idea of moving 170 million users over to a platform, you catalyze an alternative, right? So you spin up scale and there you have it. So now people could choose to be on an intranet where they own and control their identity and data, or choose to be on one where they're surveilled and their data is scraped. And so choice is a good thing. I'm very confident that given that choice, people will migrate like crazy.

[Stephen Overlea]

And the outlook for TikTok looks a bit different after the election. You know, we have to talk about that. President elect Donald Trump has said that he does not want to ban TikTok. And so there's some questions about whether he might try to delay that sale or perhaps reverse the law behind it. How does that affect your planes?

[Frank McCourt]

Well, we don't want to ban TikTok either. We want to purchase it on behalf of the people and move. Move the community over to a new protocol into a different version, a better version of the. Of the Internet. So he hasn't said anything about not forcing a sale. He's talked about not banning it, and we're in agreement on that.

[Stephen Overlea]

If we take a step back here, kind of the broader view I know that you and others at Project Liberty have is that people and not kind of big Internet companies should own and control their data. There are some practical barriers to that. I want to talk through and get your thinking on. If we start with just technological changes that are needed to make that happen, what's the biggest one in your mind?

[Frank McCourt]

Yeah, I think Braxton spoke to it earlier on the earlier panel. In order to fix this mess, we need a systemic change. As an infrastructure person, my family's been building infrastructure for over 130 years. When you want to evolve a design, evolve infrastructure, it's very difficult to do it from the top. You need to do it from the bottom up. I mean, if you have a water system and the water is contaminated and it's not working well, you don't attack it at every faucet in everybody's home. You have to attack it at the source. So the insight here that I was so compelled by was this idea that, you know, we connect devices with a simple corollary protocol. We connect data in the same way. Well, let's connect people and let's start at the bottom and giving people that agency and that control so that they. They are able to now be a person on the Internet. And then, you know, just imagine an intranet where it's, you know, verifiable human beings. You can be anonymous, but you're a person. You're not 10 people or 20 people or a machine bot and so on and so forth. That alone will be mass A massively different Internet. We need to bring a sense of, I think the Internet needs to work a lot more like our offline life works. You know, you share a lot of information with people, you're very close to nothing with strangers. You know, we need an Internet where people have that ability to permission use of their data and it's not all at once or none at all. You know, there's different things, okay, you need to know my location, that's it, My age, that's it, et cetera, et cetera. So giving people that ability to actually permission the use of their data is a massively different Internet. Don't we all want apps that click on our terms and conditions of use as opposed to mindlessly clicking, clicking on terms and conditions of use of a few platforms? I mean, I think just sitting here now, last day and a half, I mean, I think the message is pretty clear. Right. What we have is broken. I hope the other message is clear too. It just doesn't have to be this way. It's just engineering.

[Stephen Overlea]

And does that technology already exist today that allows people to own their data, move it from one platform to the next if they so choose? I mean, I think people often feel so subject to the whims of big tech companies. They often don't feel they have control of over their data. And a big piece of that is giving people access to an understanding of how to use technology.

[Frank McCourt]

Yeah, so we, we have one. The Internet works a certain way. We're all beholden to it. It's no longer kind of a nice to have thing. It's a must have thing. We're all, we're all attached and it's surveilling us 24 7. It's what people know. And until there's an alternative, we're going to keep living in this misery. You know, we started, my family started a telecom company in the early 90s. It was before phone numbers were portable and carriers were interoperable. People weren't asking for, you know, in, in great numbers. I want, I want my phone number right. Or I want the, my carrier to be, you know, I want to be able to talk to you on at&t when I'm on Verizon. But once we built it and they saw the possibilities, everybody wanted their phone number and everybody wanted the carriers to interoperate. Think of the Internet the same way. Once people see that they can own themselves again, that they can own their data, they control their data, own their identity and share that information with others on a permission basis. Everybody will want it because it's obviously better when the apps are able to communicate with one another. Everybody's going to want those to be operating in that Internet. We're going to show something this afternoon that is interoperability between two different, between me, we and we are eight. And it's, I think it's the first time it's ever happened on the Internet where you could be on one platform and, and take a photo or share something with somebody on an entirely different platform. That's, you know, it's not exactly like discovering electricity, but it's very close. I mean, it's a big deal. And people I think five, ten years from now are going to look back and say what do you mean I didn't own my data and decide what to do with it? What do you mean you had to be on Facebook to talk to somebody on Facebook. It's just, it will be as old fashioned as having to be on AT&T. To talk to somebody on AT&T as opposed to be on whatever carrier you want.

[Stephen Overlea]

Right.

[Frank McCourt]

I'll talk.

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[Stephen Overlea]

We heard some survey results earlier talking about how people overwhelmingly want change from social media and how their data is handled. And I guess I'm trying to sort of make sense of that. When you think of the fact that TikTok has I think 170 million users in the United States, Facebook has close to 200 million users in the United States. I mean, what's the dissonance there that we have millions of people using these platforms every day and yet they also want so much change from these platforms.

[Frank McCourt]

Well, because they're in misery, but they have no place to go. So again, I think we, let's just keep thinking about this in an offline way. You know, think of physical human migration, right? When somebody moves from one country to another, what's required for that? Number one, they have to reach a point where they no longer can, can be where they are. Right. It's intolerable for whatever reason. And we see that happening all over the world. People leave their home that's a big decision. But there's a second requirement. They need a place to go. There are millions of people that live in horrible conditions that have no place to go. But when people think about, oh, there's another alternative, they go. My forebears and my ancestors came from Ireland where they were starving, literally, right? They came to America. You see Keith Haring's painting of the, of the Statue of Liberty. It was, they came for a dream, a hope of a better life possibility. Those are powerful motivations when somebody can imagine a place better than the one they're in. But it has to be described, explained, and better yet, when it exists, you know, so when my, when, when my forebears came here and there was really a, it really was a place called America. Right, right. It, it, it. And they built a life and, and it was better than the life they had. So that's why I used in the book I wrote the American Project and Thomas Paine is the framing device. It's as basic as that. People migrate when they have a place to go.

[Stephen Overlea]

And is your vision of the Internet sort of littered with pop up boxes you have to click to accept terms of agreement or rabbit holes of privacy settings? I think right now control over your data is sort of synonymous with annoyances or roadblocks to a seamless use of social media. How do we get over that?

[Frank McCourt]

We're at the early innings of this, right? This is the beginning of the next generation of the Internet. And right now it sounds like, well, yeah, I have control of my data, but how am I going to make all these choices? I'm not a sophisticated technologist. I don't have time, et cetera, et cetera. The world will evolve. There'll be a new framework, new schema, new ways to. And new people who will show up in organizations who will make that easy for us. You know, I remember, you know, growing up, my mom was, she preferred to buy something that had the Good Housekeeping cell of approval. We all know Consumer Reports issues reports on electronics and other underwriters, laboratory rather on electronics and other consumer reports on all kinds of things. These are trusted intermediaries that you can look to that will make it easy for people to control their data. It won't be everybody, hundreds of millions and billions of people figuring it out in an atomized way. It will become very, very easy. Just like by the way, the existing intranet started out very clunky. You know, modems dial up this and that and it just, it became very easy to use. And people are incentivized to make it easy because that's how they, they attain customers.

[Stephen Overlea]

This future that you're describing and that you're trying to build would disrupt a lot of entrenched businesses who are built on data. Right. I think that's the goal. Right, I get that. But you know, I'm thinking of AI companies, I'm thinking of social media companies. I'm thinking of data brokers. I mean, how do you either get them out of your way or get them on board with this sort of notion of people owning and controlling their own data?

[Frank McCourt]

Well, first of all, I'm not going to do it. We're going to do it. That's really critical. Project Liberty, as I said earlier, don't think of it as a tech project. Yes, we have to fix the tech, but this has to be insistence on change. I would break down the people that might be resistant into different categories. I personally think there's going to be a vibrant, vibrant, a commercial ecosystem. It's going to be much more fair and it's going to be much more deliberate and people will signal their interest rather than being targeted. As Tamaika referred to it as an intention economy, not an attention economy. So it's not like advertising is going away or the commercial conveniences. If everybody wants to be able to go online, decide what they want to buy, and have it delivered to their home the following morning, that's convenient. That's awesome. But that can be done without surveilling that person or surveilling everyone else. I think the big issue for us all to come to grips with is a should we own ourselves or not? Whose data is it? That's. I want Big Tech to answer that question. Why do you think you should own all of my data? Is it because I clicked on those cookies mindlessly? Is that informed consent? I say no, you can't own someone else. That's a moral question. And just one other, one other thing. We're. The technology itself is great. The Internet is great. AI can be awesome. The fork in the road for me is are we going to live in a world where we go down more and more centralization, or are we going to take a different way, which is we own ourselves and a decentralized version of all this, decentralized generative AI as opposed to centralized generative AI. We have political ideology in the US right? Statue of Liberty, freedom, agency, autonomy, individual rights. Think of all this as a set of human rights, not as tech, not as data. And. And we need technology that's in harmony with our political ideals. Now if we want to change those political, that political ideology and become autocratic, centralized, surveillance based, we can choose that and then we can have technology like where we're headed that would be very much in harmony with that. China, by the way, is unabashed about it. They surveil everyone. They have a political ideology that's autocratic and centralized. This kind of technology is in harmony with that political ideology. This is completely dissonant with the political ideology that I understand this country is built on and that I want to protect because I believe in it. So unless we fix the tech, which is much more resilient than fragile democracies, our political ideology will bend to that autocratic, centralized, surveillance based technology. We need to be deliberate in fixing the tech so it bends to our belief system and what we stand for.

[Stephen Overlea]

Well, Frank, this has been a fascinating conversation. I think it's a fascinating movement, really, that you're trying to pull off here. Appreciate you joining me for this conversation.

[Frank McCourt]

Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you all for being here.

[Stephen Overlea]

That's all for today's Politico Tech. If you enjoy Politico Tech, be sure to subscribe. And for more tech news, subscribe to our newsletters, Digital Future Daily and Morning Tech. Our managing producer is Annie Reese. Our producer is Afraid Abdullah. I'm Stephen Overlea. See you back here tomorrow.