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- [00:01]
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- [00:25]
Stephen Over
Hey, welcome back to POLITICO tech. Today's Monday, December 16th. I'm Stephen Over. For years, President elect Donald Trump has lashed out at TV broadcasters and tech companies, accusing them of unfair news coverage or suppressing conservative speech. Now that Trump is returning to the White House, he's threatened to penalize them, and he could use the Federal Communications Commission to do it. The FCC is technically an independent agency, but the chair is appointed by the president, and Trump has designated a loyal supporter for the job, Republican FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr, who has said he's working closely with Trump's transition team on his agenda. The FCC's outgoing chair, Democrat Jessica Rosenworsel, is worried about the coming change. She told me the FCC's independence may be in jeopardy and that people will need to speak out and defend it. But it's also notable to me what Rosen Wursel wouldn't say. In fact, when you listen to our conversation, you'll notice her criticism and concern. Never mentions Trump or Carr by name. On the show. Today, Rosen Wursel joins me to discuss her tenure at the agency, from confronting Chinese hackers and AI deepfakes to breaking new ground on space policy and where she sees the FCC headed next. Here's our conversation. Chairwoman, welcome to Politico Tech.
- [02:10]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Thank you for having me.
- [02:12]
Stephen Over
You're nearing the end of your term, and we're going to talk today about many of the things that you've done over the last four years. I do want to start, though, with an action the FCC has recently taken. You know, you've proposed new rules for telecom companies to sort of step up their cybersecurity. And this comes after it was revealed that Chinese hackers have sort of infiltrated US Networks and been compromising them for at least the last few months. What do you see as the biggest vulnerability that really needs to be fixed?
- [02:40]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Ah, that's a good question. And you're starting right at the heart of things. I think. Throughout my tenure, we've actually put national security front and center. For the first time in history, we've revoked authorizations of Chinese companies that provide service in the United States, and we've set up funds to take out insecure equipment in our networks. But what we've seen with Salt Typhoon is really important, and we have got to address it. And I decided that while our national security colleagues go ahead and do their work to understand the scope and the impact of that incursion into our networks, the FCC can go ahead and start setting up a framework for the future. And I think going forward, we should use a law from 1994 called the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement act and reinterpret it in a modern way. And by that I mean we have to come up with standards for minimum cybersecurity in our nation's networks to make sure that this kind of intrusion in our security does not happen again.
- [03:43]
Stephen Over
There's been some criticism, particularly from Republicans, around the timing of this, and I think some folks would be surprised that there aren't sort of minimum standards in place around cybersecurity on telecommunication networks. Is this an area where the FCC should have worked earlier to try to prevent this kind of attack?
- [04:03]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Well, I think what we are facing now is new, and it's really important to understand what our nation's communications networks look like. They're a patchwork of a lot of different networks. Some portions are gleaming and brand new and use IP technology. Other parts are analog, and they date back 50 years to the heyday of new long distance service. So all of these pieces come together and we have to recognize because they're interconnected, they share vulnerabilities. Now, we haven't seen a new law on this issue at the FCC since 1994. It's a long time ago. But what I think is important is we take the laws we have on the books and start building a new framework for the future. Even as our national security authorities keep on looking into what happened and why, I don't think we should wait for them to complete that task. I think we have to get started right now.
- [04:55]
Stephen Over
Are new laws and authorities needed? You know, you've obviously been leading this agency for years. You know its strengths, but you also know its weaknesses. I mean, what new authorities would make your job easier when it comes to, like, addressing the risks posed by China?
- [05:09]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Well, I think one of the things that is really apparent to me is that a lot of our communications laws are old. You know, we've got the Communications act is from 1934, and it speaks in terms of principles that I think are really valuable. You know, putting a premium on public safety, universal service, competition, and consumer protection. But some of the specifics of those and how we apply them to this new digital world. That is a challenge. And people out there who rely on these networks every day in their homes and businesses, they want to make sure they're secure. So I think we've got to look for some of the gaps in those old laws so we can make sure people are secure in new ways.
- [05:46]
Stephen Over
Is there a gap in particular that comes to mind? Because obviously you're focused on the digital space. You're also now thinking about space as in outer space.
- [05:55]
Jessica Rosenworcel
True, right. I know we've launched the first ever Space Bureau at the fcc, which is a big activity, I think, in this new era that's really exciting. But I think we're going to need minimum cybersecurity standards. And it's not something necessarily that we'll work on strictly at the fcc. We'll look to our colleagues in CISA and NIST to help us with that. I think this has to be a whole of government effort.
- [06:20]
Stephen Over
We're talking about the Space Bureau, which is new. It's sort of set up to establish rules and policy for space based communication. Because that is kind of a new part of the agency that you've created. When you think long term, what is it you're hoping that part of the agency becomes or accomplishes?
- [06:39]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Yeah, when you take over any organization or institution, you look at what's growing. And it became really apparent to me that six decades after the first commercial satellite was launched, we're seeing so much more activity in our skies. The number of satellites being launched is a record every year. The number of launches taking place is growing tremendously. And the number of different kinds of communication services we're seeing developed in the skies, it's like, oh, it's trite, but the sky's the limit, right? It's amazing what we're starting to see. And I thought that this agency can't keep on doing things like we did in the past and expect to lead in this new space future. So I reorganized and created the first ever FCC Space Bureau. And you know, when I did it, I actually reached out to President Kennedy's head of the FCC during the first space age, Newton Miller, who's since passed away. And I got to talk to him a little bit about what he saw when those first communication satellites that were commercial were launched into space. And I really see this as something that got started a long time ago and was a small portion of the agency's efforts, but going forward is going to be a big part of the work that we do. And you asked like, what's the future look like there, right?
- [07:52]
Stephen Over
Yeah. I'm curious because, you know, you had that conversation. I'm curious what you took from that and how that applies to the future. You know, you're not looking 60 years back, but looking 60 years ahead.
- [08:03]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think increasingly we're not going to just think about networks in the ground or terrestrial wireless networks that are above us and satellites in the skies. I think we're going to move towards something I call the single network future, where we integrate all of those different kinds of communications in a way that is invisible to the user. So what we'll have in that world is always on connectivity for our things, our devices, our communications everywhere, because portions of it come from the ground and from the skies. We're going to be able to eliminate dead zones and connect more people globally. I think it's actually going to be really transformative. And that single network future, the FCC has been leading the way. We've been talking about it not just domestically, but with our counterparts globally. And we're already seeing early efforts in that direction with the integration of our wireless phones with satellites in the skies. I think all of this is going to happen here in the United States first, but it's going to have transformative effect around the world.
- [09:08]
Stephen Over
Is there an obstacle in your mind to kind of that single network future? I mean, you've talked, for instance, in the past about market competition and the need for a healthy market in order for these kind of technologies to thrive. Some folks may say risks of overregulation are a possible hindrance. I'm curious how we get to that future and if there's something in the way that you'd like to knock down.
- [09:32]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Oh, sure. Well, I'm an optimist about that future. I think you can tell. But I think, you know, we're going to face some challenges on the way to there. The first is we have to make sure that our skies are competitive. And we have many different actors providing these services. Networks that are more resilient are those that have more competition. And so I think that's an important part of it. And then I think we're going to have to work with our global colleagues on spectrum and access issues for orbital slots to make sure that we all have a shared vision of what communications from the skies will look like in the future. So I think those are big challenges, but we've overcome some in the past in the first space era. I think we're going to overcome them in the future, too.
- [10:12]
Stephen Over
You were saying earlier that you're an optimist, and I can certainly hear that in your answers here. I do want to ask you about a topic that I think may challenge that in some ways, but President elect Donald Trump is obviously coming into the White House in January, and he's announced that he will nominate Republican FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr to take your place at the agency. You've worked with Commissioner Carr for many years now. When you heard his nomination, I mean, did you panic? Did you breathe a sigh of relief? What was that initial response?
- [10:44]
Jessica Rosenworcel
You know, I appreciate that the president gets the right to choose his nominees and leadership at this agency. That is something that we should expect might happen. And I appreciate that my colleague is familiar with this agency, knows its staff and the good work they do. I just, you know, we have different ways of looking at some issues, but I fully expect that the new president makes choices about new personnel, and this is consistent with that.
- [11:13]
Stephen Over
One thing that has always sort of intrigued me, I guess, about the FCC is sort of its status as an independent agency. You know, the president gets to appoint the chair of the agency, and yet you're sort of expected to operate independently. And Commissioner Carr was speaking recently about his FCC priorities in an interview on cnbc. And the quick quote, which I'll just say is he said, first and foremost, I want to make sure I continue to work with the Trump transition team and make sure I understand 100% what their agenda is. What do you make of those comments, you know, in this sort of context of the independence that your role is supposed to have?
- [11:54]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Well, I think every public servant takes an oath to the Constitution, full stop. That's the most important thing. I also think our agency's independence has led to its global credibility. We make decisions about communications based on the record, based on the facts and based on the law, and not based on the whims coming out of the White House or the grievances of the President. I think that independence is something to value, and it's led to us having the strongest communications market in the world. So I think it's really important for us to honor that precedent and make sure that continues.
- [12:36]
Stephen Over
Commissioner Carr has talked about the future of the fcc. He's talked about, for instance, his number one priority is cracking down on big tech censorship, which is intriguing to me because it seems to put the FCC in a position of regulating speech or content online, which has not traditionally been the role of the agency. Is it a mistake to move in that direction with the FCC's authority?
- [13:00]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Well, I can't speak to the specifics of what he might do. But I can tell you how I think about it.
- [13:05]
Stephen Over
Yeah.
- [13:06]
Jessica Rosenworcel
And that's the First Amendment is a cornerstone of our democracy. And the FCC has no business threatening to take away broadcast licenses because the president does not like the content or coverage on a network. And that same First Amendment duty applies to what is out there online. And I think, again, we got to honor the Constitution first and foremost, and the FCC should not be tearing down the First Amendment because it's deeply rooted in how we think about the media in this country. And again, we're going to just really have to honor that going forward. To the extent that, you know, we don't see that happening at the fcc, I think it's appropriate to speak up.
- [13:48]
Stephen Over
Do you expect you'll be watching and speaking up in your role as former FCC chair?
- [13:54]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Yeah. Well, what I'm doing right now is focusing on ending strong and making sure we get all the things that are on my desk done before I go and making sure that the staff of this agency is in a good place. And I think the work we've had done is tremendous. We've been able to, in addition to all the things we've talked about, we've built broadband maps that are light years ahead of anything we've had before so that when we give out money, we actually know where we're spending it. And I've worked for years on what I call the homework gap, which is kids who don't have Internet access at home to do their nightly schoolwork. We've helped millions of them. In fact, we're making it possible in every school and library that they can have wifi hotspots for loan. I'm also really proud of things we've done to help vulnerable populations get communications. We've helped people in mental distress be able to text 988 for assistance. We set that whole system up. We also made sure that wireless emergency alerts get to us in 13 different languages. We've helped survivors of domestic violence get access to safe connections because having a secure phone is so important if you want to break away from a life of abuse. And we've also set up the US Cyber trustmark, the first ever voluntary cyber trust program in the United States. It's going to be an icon that's on all of our interconnected devices. So I think we've done a lot of really good stuff. I hope that there can be some pressure to make sure those good things continue.
- [15:27]
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- [15:54]
Stephen Over
You know, I have to ask about Elon Musk because it's a name you can't escape in Washington these days. But he does have quite a close relationship with Commissioner Carr and obviously President Elect Trump. But he's sort of in a unique position in some ways because the FCC could potentially give a boost to some of his businesses. His businesses, SpaceX and Starlink, do have issues that come before your agency. You've talked in the past about the need for more competition. I wonder if that relationship between Musk and this administration gives you any pause.
- [16:28]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Well, I think you can see structurally that we built the Space Bureau. We've been very aggressive about suggesting new companies with new ideas and new innovations should come in because we think our space economy is going to be stronger when it's more diverse. We've come incredibly far with the existing deployments in low Earth orbit that we have. But I think our future is going to be a lot stronger if we make sure we continue to pursue competition in space based communications.
- [16:57]
Stephen Over
So I take that competition to mean competition beyond just Elon Musk and his companies.
- [17:04]
Jessica Rosenworcel
That is definitely a good way to look at it.
- [17:06]
Stephen Over
You know, you were listing earlier your accomplishments and you've got a month left at the Agency. I imagine you're also thinking, even though you are an optimist, I imagine you're also thinking about unfinished business, what you would have liked to get done, what would be at the top of that list of things you wish you had gotten done before your time came to an end.
- [17:24]
Jessica Rosenworcel
You know, I don't really have any regrets for my time here. I think we've done some really good work. I think one thing we haven't talked about though, is about artificial intelligence, because it's actually amazing to have a conversation with someone in Washington where that doesn't come out right. It feels like it is something that everyone here is talking about all the time. But I think one of the things that happened during my tenure that's really important is was a little less than a year ago when a lot of voters in New Hampshire awoke to what seemed like President Biden giving them a call at home telling them not to vote in the primary. And that was an artificial intelligence voiced cloned version of the president. I'm really proud of the fact that on a bipartisan basis here with my colleagues, we came out very clearly and very quickly and said that that use of the technology violates the telephone consumer Protection Act. And I'm just as proud that we were able to work with the New Hampshire Attorney General to make sure that the individual responsible for it both got a fine from this agency of $6 million and is being prosecuted in the state. I bring that up because I think that going forward, one of the challenges for our networks will be making sure that people are not flooded with fake stuff and that when we interact with synthetic voices and artificially developed content, I think we have to start setting a standard here at the FCC and as a social norm that all of us deserve to know. So if you are a viewer or a listener or a voter or a citizen and you're interacting with something that is artificially produced, I think that we're going to have to make sure that our communications networks that might deliver that also deliver you the information you might need to make about continuing to engage in that conversation.
- [19:13]
Stephen Over
We talk a lot about that on the podcast. This notion of a post truth world and a future where you can't always believe what you see or what you hear and the responsibilities that everyone plays in sort of upholding the truth, it sounds like you do see sort of a role for the FCC and that going forward even beyond your leadership.
- [19:33]
Jessica Rosenworcel
I think ultimately it comes down to disclosure. You don't want the FCC to be the president's speech police dictating what's true or what's false. But you can suggest that again, if you're the viewer or the listener, you deserve to know if that's fake stuff. And we've got to develop that as a legal norm and as a social norm at the same time. And when you think of what is coming our way with artificial intelligence, I think it now is not too early to start.
- [20:01]
Stephen Over
What's next for you after you head out of office? That's the obligatory exit interview question.
- [20:09]
Jessica Rosenworcel
I know it's the tritest thing to say in Washington, but it's true. I'm going to spend more time with my family, my kids and my rescue dog. And I'm looking forward to it. This has been the honor of the lifetime and the ability to make history as the first woman to run this place. It took too long, but we did a whole lot and I'm proud of it.
- [20:29]
Stephen Over
Well, Chairwoman, I appreciate you making time for us on Politico Tech.
- [20:32]
Jessica Rosenworcel
Thank you so much.
- [20:36]
Stephen Over
That's all for today's Politico Tech. I reached out to Commissioner Carr for comment on today's episode and did not receive a response. I have also invited him to join the podcast as a guest, and I hope he'll do so. If you enjoy Politico Tech, be sure to subscribe. And for more tech news, subscribe to our newsletters, Digital Future Daily and Morning Tech. Our managing producer is Annie Reese. Our producer is Afraid Abdullah. I'm Stephen Overlea. See you back here tomorrow.