The future of war? Cheaper, faster tech

Summary

POLITICO Tech Podcast Summary: "The Future of War? Cheaper, Faster Tech"

Release Date: March 6, 2025
Host: Stephen Overle

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Introduction

In the March 6, 2025 episode of POLITICO Tech, host Stephen Overle delves into the Pentagon's strategic shift towards cost-effective and rapid technological advancements in military operations. The episode centers around the Army's Transformation in Contact program, which aims to modernize warfare through accessible, off-the-shelf technologies, amidst significant budget cuts and evolving global conflicts.

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Budget Cuts and the Transformation in Contact Program

Stephen Overle opens the discussion by highlighting recent directives that require the Pentagon to reduce its budget and lay off thousands of civilian employees. Despite these constraints, the Army is pushing forward with the Transformation in Contact program. Overle explains, “The Pentagon isn't immune to Elon Musk's budget cuts” (00:13), setting the stage for the conversation on how the military is adapting to financial pressures by embracing more affordable technologies.

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Implementing Modern Technologies

General Randy George, the Army's Chief of Staff, provides an in-depth look at the program’s implementation within three selected brigades. He emphasizes the importance of bottom-up innovation, stating, “This is about getting our soldiers there with the developers, with the people that actually understand the technology” (02:14). Technologies introduced include:

• Communication Upgrades: Transitioning from bulky systems to smartphones and tablets to enhance mobility and reduce emissions.
• Uncrewed Systems: Deployment of drones and ground robots for various operational tasks.
• Counter UAS Equipment: Tools to defend against enemy drones.
• Electronic Warfare Equipment: Enhancing the Army’s ability to operate within the electromagnetic spectrum.
• Infantry Squad Vehicles: Improving mobility on the battlefield through specialized vehicles.

George underscores the adaptability of these technologies, noting significant improvements within the first year of deployment in Germany (03:39).

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Expansion Plans and Funding Challenges

The conversation shifts to future expansion plans for the program. General George reveals, “We’re going to buy drones and we're going to buy the best thing that's available” (07:27), indicating a commitment to maintaining technological superiority without escalating costs. The Army plans to extend the program to two additional divisions, including the 25th Infantry Division in the Pacific and the 101st Airborne Division.

However, expanding the program faces challenges, primarily due to budget constraints. George addresses funding issues by emphasizing efficiency and advocating for agile funding: “We are working with OSD and Congress to get what we're calling agile funding so that we could buy a capability without buying a specific program” (07:00). This approach allows the Army to procure the best available technologies without long-term financial commitments.

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Impact of Ongoing Conflicts and Technological Competition

The episode explores how contemporary conflicts, such as those in Gaza and Ukraine, influence the Army's technological strategies. General George remarks, “What we have to move at a much more rapid pace of change” (10:07), reflecting on the necessity for swift adaptation in response to real-time battlefield developments.

The discussion also touches on global technological competition, particularly with China. George notes the critical need for closer integration between the military and private industry, akin to China's civil-military fusion: “What we need to do is to put that kind of brain power” (13:12). This collaboration aims to harness innovative solutions from smaller, agile companies to enhance military capabilities.

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Integration with Private Industry

General George highlights the benefits of partnering with innovative private companies: “These have been a lot of smaller, very innovative companies that are moving very rapidly, that are proven that they can do things that are going to make our units much better and they can do it cheaper” (11:00). This strategy contrasts with traditional long-term contracts, allowing the Army to stay ahead with the latest technologies.

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Identifying Gaps and Future Investments

Addressing future needs, General George identifies ongoing gaps in technology and the importance of aligning processes to keep pace with advancements. He states, “Our biggest challenge right now is scaling this and then adjusting our processes from top to bottom” (14:48). The Army is continuously assessing required technologies, such as AI and ground robots, to ensure readiness for future conflicts.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the Army's commitment to modernizing its forces through the Transformation in Contact program. Despite budgetary constraints, the focus remains on integrating affordable, cutting-edge technologies to maintain military effectiveness. General George encapsulates the program's ethos: “We just have to be more flexible in our approach” (07:27), underscoring the Army's dedication to evolving swiftly in an increasingly tech-driven global landscape.

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This comprehensive summary provides an insightful overview of the Army's strategic initiatives to modernize warfare through cost-effective technologies, as discussed in the POLITICO Tech podcast episode "The Future of War? Cheaper, Faster Tech."

Transcript

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[Stephen Overle]

I participate in restaurants for a limited time. Hey, welcome to POLITICO tech. Today's Thursday, March 6th. I am Stephen Overle. The Pentagon isn't immune to Elon Musk's budget cuts. The military has been directed to scale back its spending and to lay off thousands of civilian employees. But over the past year, before the Department of Government Efficiency was even around, three army brigades have been trying to prove that the future of war can be cheaper. They're part of a program the army calls Transformation in Contact. And it outfits soldiers with off the shelf tech that doesn't take years to build or cost billions of dollars to buy. Now, under the Army's chief of staff, General Randy George, there are plans to expand the program and the hope is to better equip the army for the kinds of conflicts happening in the world today, from Gaza to Ukraine. But expanding Transformation in Contact isn't without challenges. For one, you need cutting edge technology from trusted companies.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

A lot of drones, for example, are.

[Stephen Overle]

Made in China and you need Congress to go along. For decades, lawmakers have funded years long contracts for custom equipment, the kind General George says no longer meet the demands of modern warfare. On the show today, General George on the Army's tech ambitions. Here's our conversation.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

General, welcome to POLITICO Tech.

[General Randy George]

Thanks, Steven. Thanks for having me.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

So we're talking about the Transformation and Contact program. This is all about bringing drones and other cutting edge technology into the Army. I understand it's being deployed in three brigades at this point. What does it look like inside those brigades these days?

[General Randy George]

Well, we're obviously learning a lot. Lots changed in the world here over the last couple years. I know everybody's aware of that and we're, what we realized was that we had to change and we had to change at a speed that we're typically not used to in the Army. And how we were going to adapt, how we train and operate, how we were organized would be different. And then obviously how we buy things, what we put into those formations. So we chose three different brigades and we did that because we chose one in the Pacific, which the weather is very different. The challenges there, the distance is there are different. We had one here stateside and then the most recent one that I visited was in Germany and it was freezing cold when that unit was out there doing things and we've learned something from every one of them. This is all about bottom up innovation. It's about getting our soldiers there with the developers, with the people that actually understand the technology and we're actually testing it in real conditions and making quick adaptations back. So the most recent unit in Germany had different and improved equipment from the very first one that we had and it was within the same year. That's the kind of speed that we need to operate with.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

What kind of technology are they using? If you take me to your visit in Germany, what kind of. What would I see?

[General Randy George]

So first we started a long time ago with the network and for us the network is everybody understands what they have in a phone and the power you have in a phone.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

Right.

[General Randy George]

Obviously for command and control, so that we remain secure in our military units is a little bit different, but it's fundamentally the same. And what we were trying to do is get rid of large satellite dishes and server stacks and extra vehicles and radios and move everything to phones and tablets, wearable devices. And what we know that that is going to do is it's going to reduce their emissions, it's going to make them more mobile on the battlefield. They can hide in plain sight. So we started there. We've infused the formations with drones and other uncrewed systems, ground robots as well that can do things. We infused them with counter UAS equipment so they could fight against drones that were coming at them. We gave them electronic warfare equipment and each one of these formations had what we called an infantry squad vehicle. Made them much more mobile on the battlefield. I love telling the story that we had the president for GM defense that was out there on the ground and a platoon sergeant telling him what we needed to do to change the vehicle so that it would be better for the formation and them taking that kind of direct feedback. So that's the kind of bottom up innovation that I think is helping us also determine how we're going to be organized in the army at the brigade combat team level.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

Now these three brigades, have they proven what you feel they need to prove? I mean, are you planning to expand this now? What does that look like?

[General Randy George]

We want to expand? What we said we were going to do after the first three brigades is that we're going to take a quick pause and determine how the organization would look. How we're organized is very important. We focus a lot on equipment. We're also focusing on what kind of people skills do we need to have inside of our formation. One we Talk about a lot is having a master drone operator, somebody who really understands it in every one of our companies, or a tech integrator at the battalion level that understands spectrum management and all the things that we need. So we're getting ready here in a couple of weeks to kind of decide what these formations are going to look like. And then we're going to expand it beyond the three that we've done. We've already got a plan in place to expand this to two divisions. We'll do the 25th ID that is out in the Pacific and 101st Airborne Division. We're going to expand it to armor brigade combat teams, Striker brigade combat teams, aviation brigades. In the end, you know, every one of our formations is going to have drones in it. Every one of our formations is going to have to deal with electromagnetic spectrum. So this is going to touch every one of our units.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

How much does that expansion depend on funding from Congress? Because Congress is looking to spend less money these days, not more money.

[General Randy George]

Yeah, no, we, you know, this is about getting the best value. This is about making our formations much more lethal without spending more money on it. That's exactly what we've been, we've been trying to do. So some of this is not spending our money on things that aren't going to be war winning capabilities. You know, we all do this in our personal lives. We decide, hey, I don't need this.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

Right.

[General Randy George]

So I'm not going to spend my money on it. It's a little bit harder for us at times, but we're looking to do that. We are working with OSD and Congress to get what we're calling agile funding so that we could buy a capability without buying a specific program. So we're not going to say, hey, we're buying this particular drone for the next 20 years. We want to buy drones and we're going to buy the best thing that's available.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

Got it.

[General Randy George]

So we're looking at having flexibility in these portfolios, drones countering drones, electronic warfare, that we would have a little bit of flexibility. We're also looking at, when we build things, and this is where I think also we can save money, is we want to take a much more modular, open system architecture approach where if you have something that is active protection or, you know, so for countering drones or missiles that are coming at you, you don't have to integrate it fully in your vehicle. It's almost a module that can plug in that you can put on. Same with radars and different things that we are more Plug and play in what we're doing and I think that that will also bring the cost down.

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[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

I know that the Secretary of Defense has directed an 8% cut to the budget for each of the next five years. I'm curious how you see that impacting this effort. Is that hampering your expansion or is there an opportunity to cut in places to invest here?

[General Randy George]

I'm embracing that. I think again, what we want to do is for whatever we're, you know, the money that we have is that we have, you know, the best damn army in the world and that where there's places that we're spending money that are not going to provide us value on the battlefield, then we shouldn't be spending the money. And so we're looking at everything commercial, off the shelf or dual use technology. I think that there's opportunities there. You know, what we've done with command and control as an example, we are moving where we have big systems, maybe it's a couple of trucks, it's radios, and all of that can be an application now on a tablet. And so if you look at cost, that is a significant reduction in cost and it's going to make us better. So I think we can do both.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

As you're talking about all the new technologies you're using and the new skills that are needed, I can't help but think how much the nature of war and how we think about it has changed. Does this compare to any other time in your career in terms of the pace of change that you're seeing right now?

[General Randy George]

I certainly haven't seen it in my career. And it's one of the things when I first came on as a chief, everybody would talk about, you know, what are we going to look like in 2030? And I would tell everybody, okay, we can't wait until 2030. You know, that was six plus years away when I first got started. I think we have to move at a much more rapid pace of change. And part of this is that's been the big change is what's happening in the tech world is that a lot of the commercial tech is outpacing military tech. And you can't wait years for a program to come online in this kind of environment.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

You know, I talked to a number of defense tech startups who sort of see a lot of opportunity now to sell cutting edge technology to the Pentagon. And I know you've talked in the past about needing to look at existing contractors. To what extent does this sort of new era of technology require a new era of contractor?

[General Randy George]

Yeah, I think it requires a new look by everybody. If you looked at some of the systems that we provided, some of our to our transforming and contact or tic units, these have been a lot of smaller, very innovative companies that are moving very rapidly, that are proven that they can do things that are going to make our units much better and they can do it cheaper. And that's kind of the idea that if we have. And this gets to your contracting question, what we're not going to do is buy something and say, I'm buying that drone and we're going to continue to buy that drone for the next 30 years. We're going to buy things that work inside of our system. We're going to buy the best thing that's out there. And just like we've done six months later, when we bought something, there was something better. And that's what we bought. We just have to be more flexible in our approach.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

How much of the change that we're seeing now is inspired in a way by what's playing out in Ukraine. You know, Ukraine feels like kind of a cautionary tale or a, you know, first instance of what this new era of war looks like.

[General Randy George]

We will, we certainly, we, you know, we've done sprints with lessons learned. We've had people watching this on a daily basis almost that in the Middle east, really everywhere around the world. We're also watching what's happening in the commercial side as far as how tech is advancing. So again, what we say in the army is it's just a lesson observed. We haven't actually learned it until you've done something with it. And we're obviously different than a lot of forces and we're going to do things as part of a joint team here with the U.S. army. But we are changing how we're training and operate and we're changing how we're organized. And you'll see that with the new brigade combat teams that we have. And we're very focused in changing how we buy things because I think that's critically important.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

We Sort of can't talk about tech competition in war without talking about China. It is the number one sort of threat that everyone points to. Obviously in China you have civil military fusion. Right. Disentangling their private sector and their government is difficult. Do we need a model more like that where there's closer integration of private industry and defense?

[General Randy George]

Well, I think we definitely need closer integration. I mean, I've spent a lot of time as the chief talking to a lot of the leading tech folks that are out there. And I think what we always talk about is we need to put that kind of brain power. And I think it's, you know, that no one has that like the United States and putting those people with our soldiers. So one of the things that we've done is typically we would describe what we were trying to build and we would write out these big, long, drawn out requirements and it would be like a big thick book of here's kind of what we're looking to build or to buy. And now we're describing in a page or two, here's the problem we're trying to solve and they're coming back to us and going, here's a much easier. You know, we can do this differently and bringing them in. And I mean, I could name a dozen companies that have been able to do that and then they're out there. A lot of this is software as well, and they're out there with our soldiers and in real time making adjustments to what's happening. And so I think that that's working for us. So I like our system. You know, there's things I would change as far as being able to be more flexible in how we buy things. But I think we have the technological know how to get after this. We just need to unleash it, I.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

Guess, without revealing any state secrets here. What are the gaps? You know, is there technology that you still need, whether AI or ground robots? You know, as you've been out in the field, have you. Is there technology you've thought this is where we need to invest?

[General Randy George]

I think, I mean, we're certainly doing that on almost daily basis. I think that the challenge more is can we get our processes aligned to make sure that we're doing this at the speed that we need to do that? Typically what I have found is the units, the soldiers, they're very innovative. They're ready for change. They can handle a lot of change. They do things very quickly. The further you get up, you're back here with me and you want to have it's the process that is, how do we get more agile with our funding, how do we do things? And what we did in Germany was a little different because we actually, rather than waiting for them to come back to the States, we actually transformed that unit while they were deployed. And that was part of transforming in contact. We're doing that this summer with, you know, additional units that are out in the Pacific because we know the environment is very different. So I think our biggest challenge right now is scaling this and then adjusting our processes from top to bottom so that we can match the speed with which I know the soldiers can handle this infusion of technology.

[Unknown Host (interviewer)]

Well, General, I appreciate you being here on Politico Tech.

[General Randy George]

Thank you, Steven. Appreciate it.

[Stephen Overle]

That's all for today's Politico Tech. If you enjoy Politico Tech, please subscribe. And for more tech news, subscribe to our newsletters, Digital Future Daily and Morning Tech. Also, sign up for POLITICO's newest newsletter, California Decoded, about how the Golden State is defining tech policy and politics within its borders and beyond. Our managing producer is Annie Reese. Philip Frobos help produce today's episode. I'm Stephen Overle. See you back here tomorrow.