The new laws trying to kill after-work emails

Summary

POLITICO Tech Podcast Summary

Episode Title: The New Laws Trying to Kill After-Work Emails
Release Date: December 11, 2024
Host: Stephen Overlea
Guest: Emily Dickens, Head of Government Affairs, Society of Human Resource Management (SHRM)

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Introduction

In this episode of POLITICO Tech, host Stephen Overlea delves into the burgeoning movement surrounding "Right to Disconnect" laws—legislation aimed at preventing employers from expecting employees to engage in work communications outside of standard working hours. With technological advancements blurring the lines between personal and professional life, these laws seek to restore work-life balance by legally permitting employees to ignore work-related communications during their off-hours.

Understanding Right to Disconnect Laws

Overview: Stephen opens the discussion by highlighting Australia's implementation of a Right to Disconnect law earlier in the year, granting employees the legal right to not respond to work communications outside their designated working hours. Similar bills have been introduced in U.S. states like California and New Jersey, though none have been enacted yet.

Emily Dickens' Perspective: Emily Dickens, representing SHRM, provides insight into the necessity and implications of such laws. She emphasizes that while the intention behind these laws is to enhance employee well-being, they may not be a one-size-fits-all solution for every workforce.

Notable Quote:

"There are no one-size-fits-all solutions for any workforce." — Emily Dickens [08:00]

The Impact of Technology on Work-Life Balance

Blurring Boundaries: The conversation explores how technology, particularly smartphones and communication platforms like Slack and email, has made it challenging to disconnect from work. Dickens attributes a significant shift during the COVID-19 pandemic, where remote work became widespread, altering traditional workplace boundaries.

Historical Context: Dickens reflects on past workplace norms, such as the use of Blackberries, which signified periods when employees could be reached outside office hours. She suggests that while some nostalgia exists for the remote work flexibility experienced during the pandemic, it isn't feasible for all industries.

Notable Quote:

"We’ve had discussions where 60% of people were still in jobs where they were public-facing and had to show up." — Emily Dickens [05:14]

SHRM's Opposition to Government-Mandated Disconnect Laws

Reasons for Opposition: SHRM opposes blanket Right to Disconnect laws for several reasons:

1. Exceptions for Critical Roles: Essential industries like healthcare may require employees to remain reachable, necessitating exceptions within the law.

2. Managerial Training: Dickens argues that better training for managers on respecting employees' personal time is more effective than legislative mandates.

3. Cultural Flexibility: Emphasizing the diversity of workplace cultures, SHRM believes businesses should set their own boundaries tailored to their specific needs.

Notable Quote:

"If we blanketly do this in a certain state, they'll carve out exceptions for parts of the workforce that impact our livelihoods, that save our lives." — Emily Dickens [08:25]

The Role of Technology as a Potential Solution

Setting Personal Boundaries: Dickens discusses personal strategies for disconnecting, such as keeping phones in different rooms during off-hours and scheduling emails to be sent during appropriate times.

Technological Aids: She suggests that technologies like AI could assist in managing work communications more effectively, potentially serving as intermediaries to filter and manage messages outside of work hours.

Notable Quote:

"Scheduling sends is a great use of technology because you're getting the items off your plate and having them out ready to be sent the next day." — Emily Dickens [17:52]

Challenges of a Patchwork of State Laws

Compliance Complexity: The episode highlights the complications businesses face with varying state laws, which can create a fragmented regulatory environment. This patchwork makes it difficult for multi-state companies to establish consistent policies across all their locations.

SHRM's Advocacy: SHRM is actively working to inform its 340,000 members about these developments and advocating for solutions that do not overly burden businesses with compliance across diverse jurisdictions.

Notable Quote:

"Imagine trying to comply with multiple states' regulations at the same time. It's just not feasible." — Emily Dickens [19:54]

Cultivating Workplace Culture Over Legislation

Focus on Culture and Compensation: Dickens emphasizes the importance of companies prioritizing both compensation and culture (the "two C's") to attract and retain talent. By fostering an environment that respects personal boundaries and aligns with employees' expectations, businesses can mitigate the need for external regulations.

Empowering Employees: She encourages employees to actively discuss and establish their work-life boundaries during the hiring process, ensuring mutual understanding between employers and employees.

Notable Quote:

"If employers and employees do a better job of hiring for culture as well as compensation, we can find a nice meeting point where we won't need our elected officials to focus their time on this particular piece of the pie." — Emily Dickens [16:03]

Conclusion

The episode underscores the complexity of implementing Right to Disconnect laws in a diverse and technologically driven workforce. While the intent to protect employee well-being is commendable, SHRM advocates for more nuanced, culture-driven solutions that respect the unique needs of different industries and roles. By enhancing managerial training and fostering transparent workplace cultures, businesses can address work-life balance effectively without the need for sweeping legislative measures.

Final Thoughts: Stephen Overlea and Emily Dickens conclude that while the conversation around disconnecting from work is just beginning, collaborative efforts between businesses and policymakers will be essential in crafting solutions that balance employee well-being with operational necessities.

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Notable Quotes:

1. "There are no one-size-fits-all solutions for any workforce." — Emily Dickens [08:00]
2. "We've had discussions where 60% of people were still in jobs where they were public-facing and had to show up." — Emily Dickens [05:14]
3. "If we blanketly do this in a certain state, they'll carve out exceptions for parts of the workforce that impact our livelihoods, that save our lives." — Emily Dickens [08:25]
4. "Scheduling sends is a great use of technology because you're getting the items off your plate and having them out ready to be sent the next day." — Emily Dickens [17:52]
5. "If employers and employees do a better job of hiring for culture as well as compensation, we can find a nice meeting point where we won't need our elected officials to focus their time on this particular piece of the pie." — Emily Dickens [16:03]

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the key discussions on Right to Disconnect laws, the role of technology, SHRM's stance, and the broader implications for workplace culture and legislation. It provides valuable insights for listeners and those interested in the intersection of technology, policy, and work-life balance.

Transcript

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[Stephen Overlea]

Hey, welcome back to POLITICO Tech. Today's Wednesday, December 11th. I'm Stephen Overlea. All right, picture it. You're sitting down to dinner since it's the holiday season. Maybe you're at a family gathering or a holiday party and then you hear it. Technology has made it so that we're always connected. And for many of us, that means we're always on call. Your boss can text or slack or ping or email long after you've left the office or closed your laptop for the day. But several countries are now cracking down on that, the latest being Australia, which earlier this year passed what is known as a right to disconnect law. As the name suggests, that means employees can legally ignore communication from from work during their off hours and companies that don't comply can be fined. Now these right to disconnect laws are making their way to the U.S. bills have been introduced in California and New Jersey, though neither has actually become law. And the Society of Human Resource Management argues that's a good thing. Emily Dickens is the head of government affairs for the association, which represents some 340,000 HR and business professionals around the world in the tug of war over work life balance. Emily tells me the government shouldn't be dictating the terms. On the show today, we discussed the impetus for these laws and why Emily expects there's more of them to come. Here's our conversation. Emily, welcome to Politico Tech.

[Emily Dickens]

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

[Stephen Overlea]

You know, we're talking about right to disconnect laws. For me, all hours of communication is just kind of the nature of journalism. You know, I get emails and calls at all hours. Let me ask you, how often do you find yourself answering calls or emails after traditional work hours?

[Executive]

Well, all the time. But I'm an executive. I work in government affairs part of the time. I have board relations. I have a couple of pieces of the business that will require me to respond if there's something unanticipated that happens. There are plenty of nights where Congress or state legislature is in session past midnight and we need that information. So I've just. This has been part of my career for a very long time and I'm used to it.

[Stephen Overlea]

Right. I think for a lot of us this is sort of the norm. There are countries though that are now passing these right to disconnect laws. You know, Australia and Spain are among them. Here in the US A few states like California and New Jersey have introduced laws but not passed them. What exactly is the big idea here, would you say?

[Emily Dickens]

So I think there's an overwhelming need.

[Executive]

For people to feel like they need to grab back their time. I think Covid introduced a space for us that very productive Americans were not used to.

[Emily Dickens]

Right.

[Executive]

Having a 40% of your workforce with the ability and flexibility to do your work anytime from anywhere was a drastic change. As we've seen people return back to the traditional office or to hybrid office.

[Emily Dickens]

Office work where at least two, three.

[Executive]

One day a week you have to report into an office. There is a desire, I think, to go back to a time where you felt you had more flexibility to get your job done.

[Emily Dickens]

That's number one.

[Executive]

Number two, I think that lawmakers and people in general are responding to the need for more family leave. And we don't have an answer to that. And they've been unable to come up with an answer that will assist small.

[Emily Dickens]

And mid sized companies in providing flexible leave for family. And so this is I think a nod to at least allowing them on.

[Executive]

Its face to grab back that family time when they are home.

[Emily Dickens]

So to me, I think about those are two things. And then I think we still have, even with, you know, you saw the.

[Executive]

Unemployment numbers, we still have a gap in talent and getting the talent that businesses need today.

[Emily Dickens]

And so there's this other school of.

[Executive]

Thought where businesses could leverage that to entice people to work from them. If there is a clear line of demarcation on when you're on and when.

[Stephen Overlea]

You'Re off, I think those are such interesting points. Especially you mentioned the pandemic, which to me that shift to remote work really scrambled the line between home and office. It almost didn't exist for a while for many of us. And now as people do return to the office, it feels like in some ways there's trying to reestablish boundaries and define, okay, when am I on and when am I off when it comes to my job.

[Emily Dickens]

Yeah. But it's funny, we have short memories and I don't know that all of those boundaries that people are thinking about were actually in place. You know, I've been in the workforce for a while now and I remember, you know, I think probably when the introduction of blackberries into the workplace as part of people's attire, part of their uniform became a piece of work that I think you gave up, there was an acknowledgement that there are times where we'll need to reach you when you are not in the office. And so I just think, you know, sometimes we look back on really interesting moments in our lives and we long for it. I'll just tell you personally, my husband and I joke about this all the time. We say if we could just have a couple of weeks to go back to Covid where there's no Covid, but we are just the two of us in our house with, in our pajamas, working and just doing. Playing crossword puzzles at lunchtime and all sorts of stuff.

[Stephen Overlea]

Right, Right.

[Emily Dickens]

It is. You hearken back to things that do give you a memory of you having friends, freedom and a freedom that you didn't have. But I encourage you to hearken back to January 1st of 2019 or January 1st of 2020 and know that your life was intermingled with work then. And I would also say that there are just certain jobs where that has been the case. We know that there are jobs where you clock in and you clock out that you are on an hourly wage. And so again, there's some of these discussions where we're talking about a percentage of the population that to some extent were able to see a flexibility that the other part of the population wasn't able to see. We talk about that during COVID 60% of people were still in jobs where they were public facing and had to show up so we could order all that stuff while we were home and order food deliveries. Right. We forget about that. And so this conversation is not about the majority of the workforce. It's about a small part of the workforce. And then if I could just intercede and you think about healthcare industry, for example, every doctor, you know, had a pager or had a phone because they're on call for some part of that week when they're off or whatever that is. And they're probably other healthcare professionals. So we're talking really, if we sat down and thought about that, this is certain industries and certain people who saw a different way and want to figure out how they can get a solution to it, but it's really not going to cover everyone. There's no one size Fits all. I'll say if there's one thing I can leave you with today, no one.

[Executive]

Size fits all for any workforce. And we've just got to be more cognizant of that.

[Stephen Overlea]

Well, let's talk more about that because it seems to me that some of these right to disconnect laws are sort of aimed at maybe resetting some of those old norms around sort of always being on, always being accessible. I know that the society of Human Resource Management has come out against the laws in California and New Jersey. Why do you think these are a bad idea?

[Emily Dickens]

If we blanketly do this in a certain state and then what they'll do is they'll carve out exceptions for parts of the workforce that are, that impact our livelihoods, that save our lives. Right. So probably health care and other parts would be carved out anyway. And so we're starting already with the fact understanding that there would be exceptions to this rule number one. But more importantly, the bigger issue is we have to train people managers better. On day one, you walk into the office and you're an individual contributor and then something happens and the next day you are a people manager. And the level of training you're afforded to get there is not where it should be. But there's got to be a recognition that a manager should understand how their people are living, what their people's needs are, and making sure that they're hiring people who understand how they do work, how they work there. And so, for example, the expectation that if you are remote and you're in the office, office three days a week, I should still be able to reach you during work hours on the other two days of the week. You've got to share those expectations upfront in the hiring. Some of us have bosses. I have one that encourages all executives to at least take 10 days a year where you are just not communicating, he sees you on email. It's a whole thing. I think people managers have to be cognizant of the fact that people's needs are different. But if you are transparent about what the needs of the business are, what the expectations are and when there are needs for people to say I really need to be just total, no contact, that we respect that and who sort.

[Stephen Overlea]

Of ultimately should kind of enforce that or have any accountability around that. Because I think some of the criticisms of these right to disconnect laws, for instance, are it places too much burden on the employer to maybe change their work place operations. You know, if it is on sort of each individual employer to set boundaries who kind of enforces that those are maintained?

[Emily Dickens]

Well, look, I don't think government should. Right. Every business is different. And I think we're getting into a part where again, every culture in a workplace is different. If you're in a factory that has 12 hour shifts, you knew when you walked in there were 12 hour shifts. And so do we want over, you know, the government to tell people when they can contact their staff? What if there was an emergency? You know, think about when we had all the supply line issues. We still have some and someone got alerted that, oh my goodness, a packages or a freight of packages we've been waiting on unexpectedly arrived and because of a law, we cannot contact the staff that have been waiting around for that to ask them to come in and do that work. Look, I think employers have expectations of their employees and I think employees should have expectations of the employers. But we can't just say that they can't hold themselves accountable. The people we've shown data shows the person that impacts your life the most at work is your direct people manager, not the CEO, you know, not the. It is the direct people manager. And if we do a better job of training people to understand that there are opportunities for exceptions and that you shouldn't be, you know, sending people notes at all hours of the night unnecessarily if there is no emergency. There's a colleague of mine, I love this, at the end of her message.

[Executive]

Signature, it says, I tend to send.

[Emily Dickens]

Notes late at night. Please do not feel as if you need to respond before normal operating hours because some of us think at different times. You know, there are just days where I find myself at 11pm and that's when I can breathe and think and respond to the 100 or so emails that might still be in my box today. But if you set guardrails and you tell your staff, just because I'm sending this to you at 11pm doesn't mean I want you to respond.

[Stephen Overlea]

Right?

[Emily Dickens]

There are ways. They're setting the boundaries. And I love the fact that this person who is a people manager on her messages has a note that says, I don't have an expectation that you respond.

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[Stephen Overlea]

You know, I take your point. You were saying earlier about, you know, we shouldn't have the government kind of dictating this. There are obviously some instances where we do have the government weighing in on workplace practices, especially things around like health and safety.

[Emily Dickens]

That's right.

[Stephen Overlea]

And a colleague of mine interviewed the New Jersey assembly member who introduced the law there. Her name's Heather Simmons. And she sort of made the argument that it's about employee wellbeing and that sort of, you know, employee satisfaction ultimately results in more productive workers. I wonder how you respond to that argument.

[Emily Dickens]

I love that members elected officials are talking about employee wellbeing. We've been talking about it forever. And as you know, one of the things we're dealing with is mental health at a level that we never thought. And so we did all these provisions to allow people to go to the gym and pay for gym memberships. Right. But we're now seeing that you need to invest more in mental health and wellbeing. And what I'd love to see see our elected officials doing is figuring out how we can cover the cost of mental health support more and how that can be a bigger part of what they support in the state because we're going to need it. There's more. People are. At least people are being more open about what their mental health needs are. So I appreciate this focus on well being. I will also say again, when people enter a workplace, it's they should think about more than just compensation. I call it the two C's compensation and culture. And what I'd like employees to be empowered to do during those interview processes is to ask detailed questions about the culture and their expectations. Believe it or not, there are some of us who thrive in environments where we are always on or whatever it is. It is something that excites us, that allows us to feel that we're engaged and making change at all levels and we figure it out. There are other people who require more boundaries who have said, this is how I want work to be in my life. You must explain that during your interview process. You must ask questions during that process. And again, with every workplace being different, every workplace can't provide that experience that people believe they should have with this disconnect opportunity. You just can't do it. And we know this. We know there are industries where people can never be off completely because there are lives and livelihoods involved. But I think we've all got to do a better job on both sides. If employers and employees do a better job of hiring for culture as well as compensation, I think that we can find a nice meeting point where we won't need our elected officials to focus their time on this particular piece of the pie, but focus on things that require additional funding and support, like our healthcare and funding for mental health, because employers would appreciate the opportunity to couple their efforts with the efforts of their states.

[Stephen Overlea]

You know, when you're talking about kind of workplace culture, I wonder how you see technology potentially fitting into that. Because I think in this debate, technology is often presented as the problem. Right? It's sort of, you know, the thing that allows us to be constantly on call because we have a smartphone now, you can slack me or email me or text me pretty much any time. I wonder if there's a way, though, that technology could be part of the solution here as well.

[Emily Dickens]

I mean, that's a good question. Look, I would say this. We talked about boundaries earlier, and at some point, I think people have to set some boundaries for their level of engagement with work. I'll give an example where I've decided.

[Executive]

Six months or so that on Sunday.

[Emily Dickens]

Mornings my phone will be in a different room in the house than where I'm sitting. And I've just decided that maybe something could be happening in those six to eight hours on Sunday when I'm in a different room for a phone. But if it's an emergency, they got my husband's cell phone number. But at some point, people will realize, huh, on Sunday mornings you probably are not going to get Emily an immediate response from Emily. I think that's one piece. I think AI can help us do some things as well, while we're still trying to figure out the boundaries of that. But I think our tie in kind of the attachment we have to technology has us thinking that we should be on all the time. And I will say this, there are some people who in their head think they have to be on, yet the expectation of the business is not right. Oh, it's nice. Didn't expect for him. And I will tell you as a people manager. So again, I want to always give tips as a people manager. If someone responds during a time and you didn't expect them to a response to them to say, I really appreciate you did this, but I want you to know going forward, don't feel like you've got to respond at this time of night or this time of morning. This is me getting things off my chest.

[Stephen Overlea]

Right?

[Emily Dickens]

Other things employers and managers could do is schedule the send. So I'll be working at 11 o'clock at night and I'll schedule sins for 8:30.

[Stephen Overlea]

I do that a lot myself actually.

[Emily Dickens]

My plate. Yeah. So is that not a great use of technology? Right. Because it is you getting the items off your chest that are not emergency, but getting them off your plate and having them out and ready to be sent to the people who have to work on it the next day.

[Stephen Overlea]

Right. That's an interesting point. And you mentioned AI briefly. I sort of can envision a future where like off hours, maybe you ping my like AI assistant, that AI assistant can help you, then gets in touch with me directly. You know, there's sort of ways maybe technology could be used creatively as it gets more sophisticated. But the way a lot of policy develops is that, you know, one state introduces a bill, then another, then five more and pretty soon you've got kind of this patchwork of regulation across the country. Do you think we're kind of at the beginning of that wave when it comes to these right to disconnect laws?

[Emily Dickens]

We are, we are.

[Executive]

And look, we've got legislatures that are.

[Emily Dickens]

Dealing with some crucial issues right now, AI regulation, paid leave and things of that nature. And we're arming our members across the country with this information too. I would just like us all to.

[Executive]

Take a step back and figure out a way for us to have better.

[Emily Dickens]

Conversations about how we work. How we work has changed so drastically in the last almost five years. And we have to acknowledge that elected officials feel like they should be focusing on the well being of their constituents and they absolutely should. I just think that businesses have been doing some, some good work in this space and would prefer to be working in partnership on employee wellness as opposed to being told that you must do these and comply with something else. You know, compliance and regulation for HR professionals is a huge part of their job.

[Stephen Overlea]

Right.

[Emily Dickens]

And the weight of an additional area of compliance where you're not just responding to what the regulation says, but you're also monitoring the behaviors of all of your people managers. Right. And when you have multi state companies, they're dealing with these rules across different state lines. And we've seen that with paid leave, we've seen that with the laws requiring you to list salaries how remember we had three or four states at the same time, none of them were the same and you just were trying to shoot for the stars to see if you can get one ad that would comply with all of them at the same time. Just imagine that continuing to do that on something where we could solve this in house. So that's just a few of the areas when we think about when you're trying to lean into business and talk about how businesses should do their business, I don't think this is that thing, but we'll be monitoring it and we'll leverage. We have 340,000 members in all 50 states and we're going to be arming them with, you know, information about this, but also letting them tell their story about how that could impact their day to day and how they can take care of the individuals at work when they're focusing on this as opposed to things more important like their healthcare and benefits.

[Stephen Overlea]

Well, listen, I think you have a fascinating perspective on this. I think it's an interesting issue to say the least. And as you said, we're sort of just at the start of this debate. So, Emily, appreciate you making time for us here on Politico Tech.

[Emily Dickens]

Thank you. Thank you for thinking of us.

[Stephen Overlea]

That's all for today's Politico Tech. If you enjoy Politico Tech, be sure to subscribe. And for more tech news, subscribe to our newsletters, Digital Future Daily and Morning Tech. Our managing producer is Annie Reese. Our producer is Afra Abdullah. I'm Stephen Overlea. See you back here tomorrow.