Lauren (2:51)

I like the weather person tone you took on with that. A historic blizzard. I feel like this is the first time you've ever been here for any type of heavy weather.

Chandler (3:01)

Yeah, I mean, I tend to try to fly south, you know, when there's a bit of a chill in the air here. But unfortunately I had to be here this week, so I'm suffering through it like the rest of the true New Yorkers.

Deb (3:14)

Yeah.

Lauren (3:15)

What's it like? I was a little bit worried about you last night. I was like, text when you get home, you know, make sure you have

Deb (3:21)

enough food, which I know you didn't

Lauren (3:22)

do or care about.

Deb (3:24)

Yeah.

Lauren (3:25)

So you're. You're not unable to DoorDash three meals a day?

Chandler (3:29)

Well, that is actually a concern. Okay. Because there is no doordash available. Everything is closed. Yeah, of course I checked.

Lauren (3:38)

Oh my gosh, I can't believe you even checked. Like you thought that people would potentially be biking or like motorcycling in this.

Chandler (3:45)

Maybe a few hustlers out there, you

Kagan (3:48)

know, want to get on the bike

Chandler (3:49)

today and brave 10ft of snow to bring me a burrito. I don't know. It's like I want to offer people work if they want it, but no one wants it. All the restaurants are closed.

Lauren (4:00)

Let the record state there was also like, I think of travel ban, which every time I say that, it does sound quite intense. But you're not supposed to travel unless it's an emergency or you're like an essential worker, which you getting a breakfast burrito is neither of those things.

Chandler (4:13)

I mean, that seems like essential work at this moment to me. So today I've had two scoops of protein powder in milk. I've had some clear protein. I've also had some dried snacks that dad left because he went to Costco. So I have some crackers here. And that's literally it. Basically, I'm going to have to keep subsisting off those dried goods until tomorrow

Lauren (4:36)

because heaven forbid you actually have to

Deb (4:38)

walk outside your apartment building.

Chandler (4:40)

Well, I don't think grocery stores are open, my sweet.

Lauren (4:43)

Yes, I bet some stores are open. Totally.

Chandler (4:46)

Oh, well, that's. I could never go.

Deb (4:49)

Have you ever go walk to a

Lauren (4:51)

grocery store from your apartment Answer the question.

Chandler (4:54)

When I first moved here, I hosted a party, and so I went and got, like, charcuterie supplies and flowers from a local grocery store. But, no, I don't go to the grocery store when I'm here. And. And it just is what it is. I just don't.

Lauren (5:09)

I think you're also a person who doesn't like going to the grocery store. I like going to the grocery store.

Chandler (5:13)

You know, I. I genuinely don't. I don't enjoy that as a task. I honestly want to be like Kim Kardashian and Kylie Jenner. When Kim Kardashian said on Chloe's podcast, she's like, I haven't been to the grocery store in 16 years. Like, that is a goal. That is goals.

Lauren (5:30)

I like going to the store. It's not, like, about, oh, I'm, you know, I'm so much more grounded and

Deb (5:35)

in touch with reality.

Lauren (5:36)

I mean, the both of those things are true, actually, but it's really not about that. In this moment, I enjoy the process of looking at the food and seeing what looks good to me and kind of being inspired in the moment by. By, you know, the fair.

Chandler (5:50)

Well, you called touching grass, Lauren, and I still need to try that. I really do. No, you're a much more capable adult person. Like, you know how to make good, healthy, simple, nutritious meals. Like, half the time, when we're done record, we're uploading the episodes at my apartment. You're on the phone with Ben, like, giving him instructions. You're like, all right, now cut the sweet potatoes, and then we're gonna need to get started on the green onions or whatever. And I'm just like, what is happening?

Deb (6:18)

I love it.

Lauren (6:20)

I absolutely love cooking for myself, and I love eating at home. I mean, I love going out to eat, but I. I also totally love eating at home. And I don't find it to be a drag to, like, make at least three to four home cooked meals a week.

Chandler (6:34)

No, I will say, actually, real talk. I have been feeling kind of low, I'll be honest, over the past, like, two weeks, and I have found three things to really help.

Guest (6:47)

Okay?

Chandler (6:47)

And one of them is cooking and is, like, having healthy food and making healthy food and, like, cutting good quality vegetables, all of that. So when I'm in Puerto Rico, it's a different story. But here in New York, especially during winter, people are like, shut up. Who cares? Anyway, Especially during winter, I land. Usually we're recording either that day or the next morning, and it's bam, bam. And I'm out of here. It's. I just don't need groceries. Like, I need meals. I don't need groceries, you know.

Lauren (7:15)

Well, that's the problem. It's like, I mean, you'll be here for three to four days stints, you know, three to four day stints. And I, I feel like if I was doing three to four days of eating out, even if I'm not eating three meals out, but like two meals out, I will feel very gross and sluggish. I, I don't know that I've found meals that feel very simple and fresh outside of the home.

Chandler (7:35)

If you could stop ordering calzones and Taco Bell, Chandler, you would discover there's a whole world of healthy to go options.

Lauren (7:41)

Breakfast burritos.

Deb (7:42)

That's what you typically get.

Lauren (7:45)

Every time I go over to Lauren's house, there's like three to four of the exact same single. Single bag from whatever coffee shop. Copper mug. Breakfast burrito. Like shop.

Chandler (7:55)

Yeah.

Lauren (7:55)

Or it's orfa.

Chandler (7:57)

Not orfa. Or the word or P H O

Lauren (8:00)

F. I didn't say or I know that they're two different words.

Chandler (8:03)

For anyone who is having trouble right now not knowing what we're talking about, there is a breakfast burrito from Copper mug that I have ordered 59 times.

Lauren (8:13)

Oh, my gosh, that's crazy. I would get sick of it.

Chandler (8:16)

If you consider like, how many days I'm here, it's basically like a third of the days I'm here, I'm ordering that. So yeah, it's a problem. It's a problem. But truly, I really did find that, like, just making simple, really healthy food was very, very good for my brain. Like, it felt good eating it. It felt good making it.

Lauren (8:38)

I love you. I don't need you to lecture me on the things I already know that are true. Like, I'm so good on this, on this revelation from you because this is my lived experience. You're like, no, but. No, but listen to me actually cooking for myself and eating fresh food. It makes me feel so good.

Chandler (8:55)

It was a. I know you don't need this lesson, but maybe for any listeners who are a little disconnected from their food, even just cooking, it actually can be helpful. So anyway, no, it's all very basic things that helped me get out of my funk. It was also getting outside, taking a daily walk.

Lauren (9:14)

Okay, once again, clip. I think people are good on your life revelations. Like, they can literally go to any home goods store and probably see the same advice. Like on several signs, you're constantly Trying

Chandler (9:25)

to push pills on me. And so I'm trying to tell people the healthy holistic methods that have worked and allowed me to resist. Okay.

Lauren (9:31)

I'm trying to get Lauren on lithium.

Guest (9:36)

No.

Chandler (9:36)

Okay. The real story is Chandler calls me the other day and she's like, I have some old anti anxiety medication I thought I'd just leave with you. And I'm like, I'm good. I'm good on the antipsychotics you want to bring over.

Lauren (9:50)

For anyone listening.

Chandler (9:52)

Am I?

Lauren (9:52)

For anyone listening? That was a total joke in just completely ingest. I would not give a prescription that was prescribed for me to someone who was. It was not prescribed for.

Chandler (10:01)

Oh, sure, sure.

Lauren (10:02)

Allegedly.

Guest (10:03)

Allegedly.

Chandler (10:04)

Yeah. So anyway, so. So actually the grounded one who does touch grass. I have been trying to use God's methods before I resorted to big pharma. No judgment on people who do. It's like try the easy things first, right?

Lauren (10:17)

My medication is not antipsychotic. Isn't that what you just called it?

Deb (10:20)

Antipsychotic medication?

Chandler (10:22)

It's not. Oh, you're not on antipsychotics? I didn't.

Lauren (10:29)

I mean, maybe they are classified as antipsychotics, but I. I'm on Prozac, which

Deb (10:35)

I is an ssri.

Lauren (10:36)

It's a mood stabilizer, I think. Yeah, but I don't know if that would technically be called an antipsychotic, which was super rude for you.

Chandler (10:43)

Well, well, thank you for educating me. What was the antianxiety medication that you tried to quietly push on me the other day?

Lauren (10:52)

Oh, it was my old Zoloft prescription that I would never do to somebody who it wasn't prescribed for. Allegedly.

Chandler (10:56)

Yes, sure. Okay.

Guest (10:59)

Anyway.

Chandler (10:59)

Oh, what was the other thing? I mean, yeah, and then just working out, like lifting weights, taking walks and we're so good.

Lauren (11:07)

This isn't even like a Q and A thing. This I like. I opened up a can of worms, I think, by like just asking you how you were faring in the storm, and I got like way more than I want.

Chandler (11:15)

Well, my, my main point is I do want to adopt these new lifestyle.

Lauren (11:20)

You're restarting this lecture in New York

Chandler (11:22)

City so once the storm has cleared and maybe I can get to a grocery store. Like, where can I get the best produce in New York?

Lauren (11:30)

I mean, I guess I want the

Chandler (11:32)

highest quality from the local farm. Picked by like a beautiful woman.

Lauren (11:38)

May I speak? Picked by a beautiful woman with like heaving breasts.

Deb (11:44)

I'm picturing like a milk idea.

Chandler (11:46)

Ideally a fertile, beautiful woman picked whatever lettuces I'll be, you know, putting in my salad spinner that week.

Lauren (11:55)

Well, it's funny, I feel like some of the worst apples I've ever gotten have been from the farmer's market. I mean, I think you could start

Deb (12:02)

at Whole Foods probably.

Lauren (12:03)

There's some great produce at Whole Foods or at a Wegmans even my key foods has pretty good produce. I'll say. I don't like to buy their meats, but I like their produce.

Chandler (12:11)

Can I share? What a horrific finding. Okay. You know those eggs in the grocery store that are like in the black carton with writing on them and they're really expensive.

Lauren (12:21)

I need to fix something. You say eggs. Very weird. Eggs. Okay, you say like you add like an extra E. It's like E capital A, A, G, G, S eggs. It's like you add another syllable of A and it's, it's always bug me. And if we're going to have this new segment where you're going to talk to us about E ggs like you got to work on it.

Chandler (12:44)

So I, I say eggs.

Lauren (12:46)

Right? Just say eggs.

Deb (12:47)

Egg.

Lauren (12:48)

Eggs. Ugh.

Chandler (12:51)

Eggs.

Lauren (12:52)

I can hear your throat like gurgling in it.

Chandler (12:56)

Okay, so for anyone who tries to order eggs at the. Or gets Eggs. Eggs.

Lauren (13:02)

Oh, there you go.

Chandler (13:06)

Okay, so for anyone who buys the really nice eggs at the grocery store.

Lauren (13:11)

That was great.

Chandler (13:12)

Thank you. You know those really nice pasture raised eggs at the grocery store?

Lauren (13:18)

Yes, yes, I do. And I know what you're about to say.

Chandler (13:21)

So basically they have been busted for artificially making their oaks. Their yolks. Excuse me, look, super orange. And they, they're not actually pasture raised. That I guess that company was bought by PE firm, I believe, and like the quality is actually really trash, but they charge a major premium and it's all a marketing gimmick. So you can't even trust. You can't trust that at all. I feel betrayed because I've paid, I don't know, so much money for those eggs over the course of my time on this, on this planet.

Lauren (13:58)

I could not agree with you more. And while this subject was not in the outline, I have plenty to say. I saw this same video and I was horrified because I've been exclusively buying the Vital Farms eggs. Let's just. Yes, let's name names.

Chandler (14:13)

Yes. Vital Farms.

Lauren (14:15)

Yeah, I've been exclusively buying them. And now I'm back to the drawing board really quick.

Chandler (14:20)

You're buying them and you're thinking, I'm gonna pay 15 for this carton of eggs because it's going to be extra nourishing. And like I'm. I'm happy to do that. Like I'm happy to pay extra for high quality food and so to be completely swindled. I believe, like, they tested positive for, I don't know, not good things. I don't know the details I didn't brush up before this. Sorry.

Lauren (14:45)

Some awesome fear mongering there. I believe they test. They tested positive for not great things. Allegedly, everyone. Allegedly.

Deb (14:52)

Allegedly.

Lauren (14:53)

Allegedly. No, but I. I could not agree more with you about how, like, disturbing this is. I mean, every time I would crack open one of those deeply rich orange looking yolks, I would just think about, like, how I was nourishing my future children. I was undoing the microplastics that are within me.

Chandler (15:10)

Yes.

Lauren (15:10)

And it's just all a racket. It's all a lie.

Chandler (15:14)

So anyway, I just don't know that I believe whatever else Whole Foods has to offer and is pedaling. It's like I really need the produce from the farm or the breakfast burrito. There's no in between for me.

Lauren (15:26)

You could get chickens at your apartment.

Chandler (15:29)

Yeah, that's a great idea. That's a great idea. I should get some livestock in here in this extremely tiny apartment.

Deb (15:37)

You'll just have to make them use

Chandler (15:38)

coasters like me, Ms. 900 square foot apartment. I definitely need live animals.

Lauren (15:45)

Lauren is faring okay so far in this blizzard, but the snow has somewhat subsided. I'm actually planning on doing a snow walk later on this evening because I think it'll be kind of fun and cute.

Chandler (15:55)

That is really, really cute. If I had appropriate gear, I would probably partake.

Lauren (15:59)

But alas, the other thing I wanted to tell you is that last night after family dinner, Ben and I came

Guest (16:04)

home and we kind of had like

Lauren (16:06)

the most magical night because we watched Day After Tomorrow.

Chandler (16:09)

Oh, you did?

Deb (16:10)

Yeah.

Lauren (16:11)

Which, you know the movie, right?

Chandler (16:12)

Yeah. With Emmy Rossum.

Lauren (16:14)

Yeah, of course. Everyone.

Deb (16:15)

It's a 2004 classic.

Lauren (16:16)

They don't make them like that anymore. I'll just say that.

Chandler (16:19)

Jake Gyllenhaal.

Lauren (16:20)

Jake Gyllenhaal, Dennis Quaid, pre. You know, everything. What we know now you know. Yeah, it's peak Dennis Quaid and yeah, it's. It was just really fun because, like, the snow was just like coming down. It was like apocalyptic outside.

Deb (16:33)

And then like we were watching like

Lauren (16:34)

the apocalypse hit New York. It was amazing. It was great. Simpler times.

Chandler (16:39)

Oh, yeah. Truly simpler times. And that sounds lovely. Honestly, I watched the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills last Night. I did not indulge in some vintage Dennis Quaid, and it probably didn't slap as hard.

Lauren (16:52)

I don't know about that because I love this episode.

Deb (16:56)

Should we talk about it?

Lauren (16:57)

Are we ready to get into it?

Chandler (16:58)

I thought this episode was entertaining. 7 out of 10. But I felt like there were some 10 out of 10 moments that I would like to get into with you. All right, everyone, you know what's coming. It's time for me to espouse the virtues of the very stunning product that has personally changed my world. Early bird CBD gummies. There's something about their magical formula of hemp derived THC and CBD. It's 12.5mg CBD, 2.5mg of THC. So just a microdose. The feeling when I take one of these gummies is so warm and gooey. It just makes you feel like you're going to melt into your pillow or just be a little bit extra cozy at dinner. It just makes it so much easier for me to relax. And I find that half a gummy it is my secret unlock to the best night's sleep of my life. To adjusting to jet lag or to having a stunning meal and just tasting every bite even more. You guys, I cannot recommend early Bird CBD gummies enough. We always make sure we're stocked because we absolutely love them and our house. Go to early birdcbd.com and use code PA20 for 20 off. One bottle will last me at least three months. So it's really not that expensive of a product. Go to early birdcbd.com use code PA20 for 20% off.

Lauren (18:18)

I felt like watching it. It was the. One of the most Real Housewives episodes where it felt like all this, all the scenes that we saw for the most part were like, real and authentic conversations, not staged bullshit or like fake cast drama. And to me, that was really nice to watch.

Kagan (18:37)

And it felt.

Deb (18:38)

I don't know, it felt almost like

Lauren (18:39)

vintage housewives in a way.

Chandler (18:40)

Yeah. I mean, one thing that was super vintage about it was the fun that Kyle and Dorit had together. I was so delighted. Just kind of moving ahead a bit for a second and we can just talk about the surf lodge part of the episode. I was just so delighted that they had fun. They cracked some jokes. They kind of got deep about marriage and attraction, and they. They just chatted like girlfriends. And that was so much more fun for me to watch than another dinner with Kyle and Dorit screaming at each other.

Lauren (19:14)

Yeah, I Mean, obviously, I love the drama, but there was something about seeing them talk about real things, like whether or not they thought Brad Pitt was hot, that was so fun to watch. And, you know, they're talking about, like, your type. And I loved Rachel Zoe being like, you know, you and I could roll together because, like, we would never want the same guy. And then, like, I don't know, just all of their conversations at that, you know, Hampton's dinner were just. I don't know, I had the thought, like, wow, it would kill to be like, they're one glass in just gabbing.

Chandler (19:44)

So fun, especially after dancing and just having that surf watch experience. Like, I. I find those environments to either be excruciating if you're not feeling fully ready to, like, commit to them and be in the moment, or extremely fun, but assuming that you're, like, down to throw down. I was, like, so jealous of that night.

Lauren (20:05)

Yeah, it looked really fun, but you

Chandler (20:07)

know what I mean? It's like those, like, those, like, club environments where you can't really sit down. You're, like, standing. It's just, like, a lot. It's a lot of stimulation.

Lauren (20:16)

The broad daylight standing and dancing did not actually look all that fun to me. It was really the dinner after, when it was, like, golden hour and the drinks were flowing. The meal looked incredible. Like, just even hearing them order, I love. I love hearing what they're ordering. You know, that was. Looked like the best part to me.

Deb (20:32)

But I just will say I feel like Kyle. It's just taken a lot of digs

Lauren (20:38)

at Dorit in her. In her confessionals.

Deb (20:41)

There's just a lot of little. Little snubs.

Lauren (20:43)

Like, you know, of all the people in our group, the person who flirts the most, it's Doritos. And it's sad because I see them having what looks like genuine good times together on camera, and then I. And then I just see Kyle kind of be a bitch behind her back.

Chandler (20:58)

See, I. I didn't read the. The flirting comment as that cutting to me. Like, I don't think it's a bad thing to be flirty. Especially Dre is a single woman. It'd be one thing if they were all married, but I felt like. I almost feel like, honestly, flirting, like, that is a real skill that clearly

Kagan (21:13)

neither of us have.

Lauren (21:15)

No, Absolutely not.

Chandler (21:16)

If you read Sue's comment from last

Lauren (21:18)

week, I could be muddying the water because of the preview for next week.

Chandler (21:23)

Yeah.

Lauren (21:24)

Where we get into, you know, Kyle saying that Dorit was spending a lot of money and she goes, I don't know if it's manic. I don't know if it's OCD or something.

Chandler (21:33)

Yeah.

Lauren (21:33)

Anyway, I was loving all the Hampton's footage. Rachel Zo just continues to be a fantastic addition.

Chandler (21:39)

Perfect. Genuinely entertaining. Serves looks genuinely entertaining and there's like zero bs drama. Zero bs period. Rachel Zo could not. Could not be more perfect.

Lauren (21:54)

If anything, I'm just sad she didn't join the cast sooner.

Chandler (21:57)

I know, I know.

Lauren (21:59)

I just think Rachel Zo is like an actual famous person who joined this cast. And I can just tell that all the women really like Rachel. Being around her and partying with her. Whether that's authentic or not, I don't know. But I just think it makes her, like, enjoyable in every scene and it makes her integration into the cast even better. Versus, like an Amanda where they're just kind of like, who is this chick? Like, you know, we don't get her. Not Amanda doesn't do herself any favors.

Chandler (22:22)

But yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that you're right that the cast is all extra nice to Rachel Zoe because she is a famous celebrity and she is like a person of note. So. So I think that they all just kiss up to her more because they, they want to be invited to stay at the friend's house in the Hamptons. They want to be invited to be her plus one to go to really cool parties. So I think that that is totally true. Maybe not the best look for them, but that's definitely what's going on. I think that it's so refreshing that Rachel is such a. A truly accomplished person, but she carries none of the self importance of, of like a Jenna Lyons, like Jenna Lions. I felt like had like a. Such a layer of I'm important. And I feel like Rachel Zo does not have any of that energy and she really is just another girlfriend, like wanting to throw down and have fun. And she's so disarming. And anyway, it just makes her extremely likable.

Lauren (23:21)

The Jenna line is such a good comparison because they're both like fashion icons, you know, fashion, like huge figures in fashion. But Rachel is such a girl's girl and so approachable and so like kind of just unapologetically herself. You know, when. When Kyle says, I think you look so beautiful without makeup, and she's like, are you serious? She's like, you could take away my person, my soul or whatever and I'd still be standing here in heels and makeup or something like that. It was just like, there's no Putting on airs or trying to be something like, she's not for the camera.

Chandler (23:49)

Exactly, exactly. And it's just so refreshing. There's. There's zero part of her that's pick me up that's like, yes, I'm effortless. I don't try. You know, she's like, no, I'm. I'm wearing heels to get coffee in the morning because that's how I feel comfortable. And on some people, that would be kind of odious, but with her, it just works.

Lauren (24:13)

It just works. Maybe because we're kind of sick of, like, the cool girl.

Chandler (24:16)

Yeah.

Lauren (24:17)

I don't know. You know, trying to hard to not look like you're trying too hard.

Chandler (24:20)

Like, by the way, you know, I have a thought about that, but I'm gonna save it for next episode, so everyone get excited.

Lauren (24:25)

Okay, moving on from the ladies in the Hamptons, let's talk about the women back in la. Let's just get into the dinner that Sutton, Erica, and Denise all go to.

Chandler (24:37)

Well, before we get to that dinner, can we talk about Amanda's comment at the beginning of the episode? Because I do feel like it bears some repeating and commentary.

Lauren (24:48)

Lauren. I just have to say her husband knows how to play the game. Because if I was complaining about friend drama and my husband was just like, well, they're probably intimidated by you, that would be hot to me. That would be hot and sexy.

Chandler (25:03)

But not because you have a resting bitch face or, you know, X, Y or Z. It's because you're so young and so successful.

Lauren (25:09)

Because, well, you know, it's because I didn't put my financial future in a man. And, you know. Or what does she. What does she say? She has the most insane statement.

Chandler (25:19)

So what she should have done if she was emotionally intelligent and she's becoming so clear. She's not. So she agrees. She goes, yeah, because I'm young and successful and I'm not financially dependent on a man. Where she outsourced her financial well being to a man. And that. That didn't go so well. That's what she said. Talk about not being able to read the room. So, Amanda, you think that you're like Bravo's primary audience is, you know, 99% women who have succeeded financially all on their own, who've never had to depend on someone. Like, you think that this is gonna land so well with everyone at home. She's honestly not that smart.

Deb (25:55)

To me, 100% not that smart.

Lauren (25:57)

And I mean, she comes across terribly episode after episode, and I had the exact same thought that this is such an alienating statement to the majority or to a lot of women, at least, who, you know, are financially dependent on their husbands, whether they're in happy marriages or not. And it's just. It just conveys, like, the way she looks down on other women.

Chandler (26:18)

Yeah, you know what?

Lauren (26:19)

I don't want a woman who looks down on other women to be my manifesting guru.

Chandler (26:23)

An excellent point. And also, how about looking down on anyone who is not the breadwinner in their relationship? Because Dorit was probably always bringing in income in her marriage or for the vast majority of it. And consider that she's talking to her husband who relies on her, and she's basically, like, being rude about exactly the position he's in.

Lauren (26:45)

Yes, it was very odd. It was very, very odd for that to be kind of her. Her clap back and to be saying that to him.

Deb (26:53)

I don't know.

Lauren (26:53)

She baffles me. Her responses to things, the way that she thinks she's coming across, but how she actually comes across, it's just continually baffling. Even when she's like, if I invited all my friends over for a free journaling and manifestation night, I love that she's like, you guys don't understand the value of this. Of this dinner party that I'm throwing. This isn't $1,200, you know, value typically, my. My courses, it's like, bitch, you just invited people over to write in their journal in front of you and, like, have some, like, apps and salads.

Chandler (27:24)

That is actually so funny. We should, when we were with our friends this weekend, be like, everyone. You're on a free retreat with Lauren and Chan. Okay.

Lauren (27:33)

If I invited all of my friends on a. On an amazing trip with myself and my sister, you know, as performers, oh, they should be so grateful.

Deb (27:42)

It was.

Lauren (27:42)

That was so weird. I mean, I also thought that she gave out her book was, like, tacky, but.

Chandler (27:47)

No, incredibly cringe. Okay, let's talk about, you know, the meat of the episode. Let's talk about the dinner with Sutton, Erica, and Denise. I want to talk about the plastic surgery part first, if I may.

Deb (27:59)

Yes, let's get into it.

Lauren (28:00)

I loved the openness. I loved it so much. This is. This is Peak Housewives. This is, like, why I love these shows.

Chandler (28:08)

So Denise walks up, and I agree completely. But Denise walks up, and she looks very refreshed. And Sutton and Erica are like, you look amazing. And she's. And she says, I've lost £200 and I got a facelift. I think losing £200 is a reference to Aaron, which at first I didn't understand, so that came together during my second watch. Okay, that makes sense.

Lauren (28:28)

That was the last time that literally, you just fully enlightened me on that one, because I was like, wait, what?

Chandler (28:33)

That's so funny. I made that click for you. That's funny. Okay, that makes me feel better. So, yeah. So she just got a facelift. She looks beautiful. The work is amazing, and it is, like, it's always so crazy when a famous person like that gets a facelift. I had the same experience with Gwyneth Paltrow where you, like, see way more the. Like, them as a young person in them again, you know, so she looks stunning, but Sutton, I think, really opens up in a very vulnerable way and kind of shares that when she first moved to la, that it's a lot of boobs, it's a lot of lips, and. And she's had no plastic surgery. I mean, she barely has had Botox. And I do feel like that was really cool of her to share, and I just really respect the kind of lighter path she's taken with all this stuff, even if she feels like she has some insecurities because of it.

Lauren (29:25)

I could not agree more. I could not even believe that she revealed that on camera. And I feel like I am falling in love with Sutton as a housewife in a way that I never cared for her before. Before, she was just, like, fine to me. I found that to be so, so vulnerable because all of these women are kind of getting every procedure under the sun.

Chandler (29:48)

Well, and I loved hearing that Erica got a neck lift, because I have always wondered how she's so snatched looking and seems to never, like, age, basically. So it was so refreshing that she talked about getting. Getting a necklift, in my opinion, but also just really refreshing to hear Sutton's take and kind of acknowledge, like, hey, like, I feel a pressure to do this stuff. It's made me feel bad about myself that I haven't. And I just. I. Yeah, I loved. I loved hearing that. And also, can I just say that I feel like Sutton is just as beautiful as the other women. And honestly, Sutton has, like, a. A softness to her and a warmth to her because she's, like, not done anything. I think that is just a. Is a really beautiful look, and it's just different than the look of the girls who are, like, more snatched.

Lauren (30:37)

Yeah. And for what it's worth, I've never looked at Sutton and been like, oh, wow, she's really not doing anything compared to These women, I don't even think

Chandler (30:43)

she necessarily looks older than the other woman. It's truly just a different look. It's not better or worse. It's like I just think that these looks are just different. And both to me truly are beautiful. So that's all.

Lauren (30:54)

Yeah, I loved it. I mean, I think that this is why I said what I said at the beginning. It was like just honest and vulnerable moments from these women, which we don't always get. We get a lot of dinners with bullshit storylines. You fed this thing to a blogger.

Deb (31:12)

Right?

Lauren (31:13)

Okay, so I obviously really want to talk about what Denise revealed and what Erica revealed at this dinner. Because it was crazy.

Deb (31:22)

It was so sad.

Lauren (31:25)

So, you know, trigger warning, everybody. We're going to be talking about domestic violence and what some of these women went through. So Denise gets into what, what happened with her and Aaron and Erica pulls up, I think the picture of her with the black eye and she says, this was not a one time thing.

Chandler (31:44)

Yeah.

Lauren (31:44)

And Denise is like, yeah, it was like a slow burn. And she tells the story about how after she had had surgery, her, one of her, the first surgeries that she had mentioned, which I think I believe was like a breast augmentation or she was getting her boobs redone. They like, they went home and she needed help, like getting to the bathroom. And while she's like using the bathroom, he's trying to get her phone from her and it turns into this like, fight where he like knocks her phone out of her hand and her drain, like, drain, which is like what you oftentimes will have after a plastic surgery, like hit the toilet. And it was just like this really chaotic scene and she's literally still like coming off of anesthesia. It's just, it's so scary.

Chandler (32:30)

Yeah. She reveals that he has been violent with her after both surgical procedures. So hitting her also after a facelift.

Lauren (32:38)

Yes.

Chandler (32:38)

And it's just domestic violence in any situation is just completely egregious. There's something extra horrific about domestic violence in the context of the victim also being. Being someone actively recovering from a surgical procedure that just adds another layer of malevolence on top of it. And I think that, you know, it's so galling to me that Aaron has given his statement and he, he has the nerve to say that he has never been physical with Denise or anyone else when we have him on camera threatening to break her hand. Oh, that's not something men who aren't violent do. No, it's not something that's just like, oh, A casual way people talk to each other.

Deb (33:32)

Not at all.

Lauren (33:33)

That footage is so chilling. I thought the part where she talked about speaking with her dad and how her dad said like, how did I not know? How did you not tell me you know about this? And she just said, I didn't tell you because like, you can't go back to a person after you tell other people what's happening. And I think that is so true and revealing about how hard and complicated these situations are for victims because they might not be ready to emotionally leave the relationship even if they're in physical danger.

Chandler (34:06)

Yeah, I think that that is probably a really common sentiment, sadly, where people know that it's obviously not the same as complaining about your husband being irritating or in a bad mood or him being depressed or like all sorts of struggles that people go through in marriage, to a girlfriend or to, you know, family or whatever. It's not the same thing. Like domestic violence is a thing where it's like it happens once and the relationship should be over. There's no second tries. Like there's, there's just no going back from it. And I think that that probably just leaves a lot of people who are in those relationships feeling so isolated because they are not ready to leave yet and so they don't feel like they can share it with people. They can't share what they're going through.

Lauren (34:50)

Yeah, I think. Now let's, let's get into Erica because this was just a total bombshell. This episode is brought to you by booking.com planning a girls trip always sounds fun until you remember you're booking for multiple people with very specific opinions. My sisters and I have non negotiables, blackout curtains so we can actually sleep. Good natural light for all those photos and ideally something close to a beach and just go ahead and trust me, we're not very flexible about these things. That's why Booking.com is our go to. Booking.com offers a wide array of hotels and vacation rentals across the US so you can find exactly what you're booking for. Even if the people you're booking for are extremely picky like us. You can filter for the things that actually matter instead of settling for something that's just fine. Whether you're booking for yourself, your partner

Chandler (35:38)

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Lauren (35:39)

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Kagan (35:48)

Yeah.

Lauren (35:49)

Book today on the site or in the app. They're sitting there at this dinner. They're talking about Denise, and Erica just looks Denise, and she goes, I just want you to know, like, I. I went through this, too.

Chandler (35:59)

Yeah. This was just so tragic to hear, and honestly, so surprising, because Erica is no shrinking violet. She's so intimidating, and she has such a presence.

Lauren (36:13)

She's, like, very fierce.

Chandler (36:14)

Yes, she's extremely fierce. That's the right word. And so this was very, very shocking to hear, and to hear that it had happened recently.

Deb (36:22)

Yeah.

Chandler (36:23)

I find Erica to be just so incredibly strong, given everything she's going through. Like, did she behave perfectly or honestly well at all when everything was going down with Tom Girardi? No, she did not. Her behavior during that was revolting. That said, I don't think she had anything to do with his criminal activity.

Lauren (36:47)

And.

Chandler (36:48)

And so to see her basically now just kind of living through the fallout, like, she's really kind of fighting for her life. It doesn't look good for Erica.

Lauren (36:58)

Yeah. I mean, I think she is really fighting tooth and nail for her life and livelihood, especially to, like, maintain any type of Beverly Hills situation.

Chandler (37:08)

Yeah. To, I think, to have any sort of financial security. I mean, my guess is she is. Is probably in the hole. And so it's very, very scary to think what the future holds for her.

Lauren (37:20)

Yeah. Just going back to what she reveals. So she. She says that, yeah, it was, like, a person that she was recently in a relationship with or that. I think it was a more casual relationship, but it was neither of her husband's. It was somebody that she was casually seeing. And she said that, like, it happened once, that, like, this person was extremely angry. And she says, quote, I put on my best hostage negotiator voice, you know, trying to talk them down. And then it happened again. And then she says on the third time, I was just like, this isn't for me. It's just wild. And I thought the fact that she revealed that was so brave. And I guess we're gonna learn more about it in the next few episodes. I think we see her go to therapy, but I don't know. This was just an episode filled with vulnerabilities. Mainly this last part, this last dinner.

Chandler (38:09)

Yeah.

Lauren (38:10)

I honestly, I love all these women, and I hope Denise comes back to the cast.

Chandler (38:14)

Denise would be great on the cast. I would love that. And I think that Erica knew she was going to share this, and I think that was the purpose of this dinner, was not only giving Denise kind of, like, the floor to share what happened to her, but also for Erica to share. And I think that there are lots of women who are watching this and men watching this show and who hopefully felt less alone and like, maybe inspired to have it be the final straw for themselves as well. Well, that. That would definitely be my hope. So, Yeah. A really important scene. Anything else on Beverly Hills, Chan?

Lauren (38:50)

No.

Chandler (38:50)

I did think Bose was very on the nose when Bose says about Amanda. Going back to Amanda when she says she's telling people how to manifest money by taking their money. That was amazing.

Lauren (39:02)

Oh, this is what I wanted to say. Actually, I do have one more thing.

Chandler (39:04)

Okay.

Lauren (39:05)

So I just will get Amanda's content in my feed every now and then. And I was just kind of like, I'm so curious, like, is she getting a lot of engagement? Like, how. How many people are actually paying members of her, you know, of her squad of, you know, she filling a convention center or what? And the truth is, like, there's a lot of people who are commenting wanting the links to all of her courses after she posts comment magic for this. This course. There are a ton of comments like,

Guest (39:32)

people are in this.

Lauren (39:33)

I think. I think she might be filling convention centers. Oh, it's shocking to me.

Chandler (39:38)

It's really shocking. It's really, really surprising. You know what? There's a market for all sorts of people and all sorts of things, so.

Lauren (39:47)

Yeah, truly.

Chandler (39:48)

Okay, so we also wanted to do just a quick little Q A before we cut to our deep dive. Okay. So, Chan, which question should we answer first?

Lauren (39:56)

I mean, do we want to just stick with pop culture and talk about Eric Dane for a second? Because someone asked how we feel about his GoFundMe.

Chandler (40:04)

I mean, Eric Dane, like, RIP. Horrible. So sad. So, so sad. There's another person in my feed right now who used to be just such, like, a strong, athletic, healthy man and now is, like, in the grips of brain cancer. And it's just really, really scary. So anyway, it's a definitely a reminder to. To cherish the time we have, especially when we're healthy and be grateful for it.

Deb (40:31)

Yeah.

Lauren (40:32)

Especially on the heels of, like, James Van Der Beek, just, you know, these stars, who we grew up with, who we are, so, you know, used to seeing who just are taken, you know, from us far too early.

Chandler (40:43)

So Dr. Dubrow, Terry Dubrow talked about it on a recent episode of his pod with Heather. Excuse me. What?

Lauren (40:50)

Chandler, you just. You just have a little grin on your face. You just love these two so much.

Chandler (40:54)

I do. Heather and Terry are my hall pass. I've always said that. And so basically he and Heather said that everyone should be getting a colonoscopy at like 35. 35 if you can. 40 at the latest though. But just get a colonoscopy. Because he died of colon cancer.

Lauren (41:14)

No. And colon cancer is like on the rise in people who are younger.

Chandler (41:18)

It also I guess just moves really quickly so you need to catch it early. And I guess it grows from the outside in so they can literally just cut it off at the beginning. Okay.

Lauren (41:28)

Okay. So going back to Eric Dane though, this person asks, you know, why are all of these millionaires asking people for money? To maintain life. Obviously there was like a big gofundme for James Vanderbeek and now there's one for Eric Dane. I do find it to be a little bit odd I, with the James Vanderbeek situation I felt like he was a star kind of a long time ago. And I, I do think that he was in much more like dire of a financial situation after his like really long battle with this. But I know, I don't, I guess I don't know all the financials of Eric Dane but a lot of people are, are questioning this because he is worth quite a lot.

Chandler (42:07)

Is he worth quite a lot?

Deb (42:08)

Yeah.

Chandler (42:09)

Apparently we have word that he was being provided housing by a certain celebrity in his final days. So Eric Dane net worth. I mean these net worth things though are just not reliable.

Lauren (42:21)

That's the problem. I, I saw something that said Eric Dane filmed 145 episodes of Grey's Anatomy. He was paid 100k per episode at the start and 250k per episode of the last three seasons. That works out to around 25 million just from that show. He also had the last ship Euphoria and Countdown. Tons of other movies and shows. So conservatively maybe 35 to 40 million in career earnings.

Chandler (42:42)

This person doesn't know how to do math and doesn't understand that taxes managers.

Deb (42:46)

Right.

Chandler (42:47)

So many people then also living in la. I mean the truth is is there's a lot of people who make a lot of money and spend all their money and have no money and are actually broke. So I think for me it's like it would not be surprising if that was more of the, the camp he was in.

Lauren (43:04)

Here's what I think. Here's what really what I think. Yeah, I think they're absolutely celebrities who are big names who totally run through their money and then maybe they don't even run through their money but they get a terrible sickness and that is extremely expensive to Deal with like long term or short or short term. It's just that stuff will devastate you financially. And anyway, my wish, my goal, if there's any app developers out there, I think there needs to be a GoFundMe, like a list or tier. This is just go. A GoFundMe that celebrities can participate in, where it's like a GoFundMe program for all the celebrities to contribute to.

Chandler (43:37)

Because I want celebrities contribute.

Lauren (43:39)

Yeah, exactly. There's something about regular, you know, minimum wage people who are Grey's Anatomy fans donating that just feels a little icky to me. Like they should maybe be donating to other. Other civilians. But I would just love, like, what if all the cast of Grey's Anatomy, you know, threw him 500k or something?

Chandler (43:55)

Yeah. I also think that it's extremely disappointing when I see someone like hailey bieber give 20 grand. 20 grand is like 3 cents to hailey bieber. It is so little. I honestly, I think she was better off not donating than giving 20 grand.

Lauren (44:11)

I think you just keep it a non at that point.

Chandler (44:13)

Yeah, like, wow, girl. The idea that you thought that that would be a good look, that is laughable. Laughable. Anyway, that like enraged me.

Lauren (44:24)

I just think there should be a special GoFundMe like Raya. Raya GoFundMe. You know what I'm saying? Whereas only people who are in those upper tiers.

Chandler (44:34)

But also, what is the GoFundMe for?

Lauren (44:37)

Well, I think it's maybe for his daughters.

Chandler (44:39)

So there. So there's no inheritance and he had no money for after.

Lauren (44:43)

Do you want me to read this to you? Read you the GoFundMe?

Chandler (44:45)

Sure.

Lauren (44:46)

The GoFundMe says it is with profound sadness that we share the loss of Eric Dane after a hard fought battle with als, leaving behind his devoted wife Rebecca and his two teenage daughters, Billy and Georgia, who were the center of his world. Following his diagnosis, Eric became a passionate spokesperson for the ALS community, using his voice and platform to advocate for fellow patients and a push for greater awareness.

Chandler (45:06)

I find the wording of that to be really odd already, but continue.

Lauren (45:10)

As his illness progressed far more quickly than anyone could have imagined, Eric's friends have come together to create this GoFundMe to support his girls and their future needs. Any contribution, no matter the size, will help provide stability during this incredibly difficult time and in the future for Eric's wonderful daughters.

Chandler (45:24)

This is really conversations that we shouldn't have, but we secretly do have. So I'm sure someone will find this to be in Bad taste. And they're correct, it is in bad taste. But I will say you don't have a gofundme if there's inher an inheritance, right?

Lauren (45:40)

I mean, maybe you do if the inheritance is going to be taken up by all your medical bills. I. I don't know. I don't know.

Chandler (45:45)

Okay, so I want to get out of hot water though. And we should answer another question. Maybe one that has is a little bit less. I don't know. Let's get into more tepid water.

Lauren (45:55)

Chandler, this one's great. So somebody asked, what do you think the aesthetic of Taylor's wedding is going to be? What kind of dress will she have? Okay, I've got a theory. Yeah, I think it will be tit forward.

Chandler (46:07)

Of course. I mean, I love you, but she's tip forward all the time. She's like always like looks like she should be playing a character in Les Miserables. Like half the time she is wearing a corset.

Lauren (46:22)

And that's as far as I've gotten. And that's as far as I think I honestly want to go in my mind because after this most recent music video, I'm worried about the choices.

Chandler (46:33)

Here is what I am truly afraid of. So Travis, to me, has a very modern look. He doesn't look like a. I'm just saying he looks like a guy in 2020. He looks like a guy in the 2000s. He does not look like Mr. Darcy.

Lauren (46:50)

Like you couldn't see him in a tunic or something in the 1800s.

Chandler (46:55)

A tunic? Chandler? I don't know.

Lauren (46:57)

I'm trying to think of what, what's an old shirt called?

Chandler (46:59)

I know, like tails and a top hat or whatever. No, he looks out of place. He looks like a very modern person. It's the buzz cut. It's the, it's the. Honestly, it's probably the football diet. I don't know what, I don't know what it is. He looks very modern. And Taylor, God bless her, with the amount of work she's had done, she also doesn't look like she belongs in the 1700s. So I'm not gonna love it if they have a Victorian themed, kind of like Gilded Age, I don't know, some other era themed wedding. And I think that's what's coming. That is my prediction.

Lauren (47:36)

It's gonna be a cat eye.

Chandler (47:38)

Okay. And a red lip and a period peace experience. That is my fear. And I'll tell you why. It's because they're having it at the breakers mansion in Rhode Island. And so that's like, the. The vibe of the building.

Lauren (47:52)

It's gonna be like, maybe gilded era or maybe Gatsby. It's gonna feel old timey.

Chandler (47:59)

It's gonna feel old timey. And they. Neither of them look old timey. And it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Sorry. It doesn't work.

Lauren (48:08)

Oh, I fear you might be right. I don't have high hopes for it, and I should just leave it at that.

Kagan (48:13)

No, you.

Chandler (48:14)

Actually, Chandler, I'd like you to put your shoulder to the wheel and not just leave it at that. We have a podcast. Why don't you. Why don't you describe what you think her wedding will look like?

Lauren (48:23)

I don't know, because I don't want to offend people who are potentially, you know, just let. Gonna be using.

Kagan (48:28)

Let me die on this hill.

Lauren (48:30)

Yeah, that's kind of how this shit goes.

Chandler (48:34)

That was just so easy for you. I throw myself completely under the bus, and then Chandler just, you know, takes the wheel and runs right over me. What do you think her wedding is gonna look like? Yeah, you're. You are under, you know, congressional questioning.

Lauren (48:50)

It's gonna be over the top. Like, it's gonna feel like one of her music videos. Potentially. Like the me music video. I don't know, like, just over the top. There was ever a moment where she was gonna be over the top. It's gonna be her wedding. And I mean, a cat eye on your wedding day.

Chandler (49:06)

The Me music video.

Lauren (49:09)

Oh, come on, girl. Put your shoulder to the wheel and watch the me music video.

Chandler (49:12)

No, I've seen it. I just am, like, shocked that you think that the me music video, which is like a pastel explosion, you think that that will be the aesthetic? Well, we shall see, everyone. We shall see. Someone wants to know, how do I get rid of some credit card debt and say no to things I want? Well, I'm not good at saying no

Guest (49:33)

to things I want.

Chandler (49:34)

Actually, I am. I'm in my era of frugality right now. I am.

Lauren (49:37)

Lasted for, like, two weeks.

Chandler (49:39)

No, I trucked me in six months. Okay, well, 2026 is my era of investing and making judicious financial decisions and not lighting money on fire.

Lauren (49:50)

So do you have any advice here?

Chandler (49:52)

My advice is you can only spend money once, but you can spend it in your mind over and over and over again. And so if you can just adopt that and realize that it's so much more fun to save and invest money, because the things that you can purchase become a lot bigger and more real. When there's a bigger pot than, like, all these fun little things constantly. And again, it's like, you can only spend money once, but you can spend it in your mind over and over and over again. So that is a way I think of, like, denying yourself. And then when it comes to paying off credit card debt, I think that you just, you pay off the smallest one first, so you get that, like, it's called the snowball effect, Dave Ramsey. You pay off the smallest one first, so you get, like, the dopamine of having paid off a card in full. And then you do the next big one, and then you do the next big one, and you just kind of, like, force yourself.

Lauren (50:47)

Okay, here's my advice.

Chandler (50:48)

Okay, Please, you know, thoughts on what I said.

Lauren (50:52)

No, that's all, that's all good thoughts. I'm just trying to be, you know, conscious of time and not bore this person with me, you know, singing your praises about your, you know, your advice. Okay, here's my tip. I don't know where I first saw this, but somebody on Instagram said that they have a buy list and where every time they want to buy something, they go and put it in this, in, like, this list on their phone, just in the notes app, you know, and they put it there. And then you wait, and then you wait until maybe you want to actually buy something, and you go back to that list. And a lot of times I found when I deploy this and I need to get back on it, I was not interested in that stuff. When I came back to it, there were a few things that I was like, oh, yeah, wait, I actually really do want that. Or I really do want, you know, those, those shoes or that piece of jewelry. I'm so glad I didn't spend my money on this other dumb shit that just came across my feed, because I actually want this, this more. I, I, I think that's a really practical way to be more judicious with your spending choices.

Chandler (51:44)

Absolutely love it. And I think that's a, that is great advice. Okay, well, should we cut to our deep dive with, you know, it's actually with us. It's the two of us.

Kagan (51:53)

It's just us.

Lauren (51:55)

Nobody knew you guys.

Chandler (51:57)

This is our most popular episode of all time, so we had to bring it back to the top of the feed, but we didn't want to leave you high and dry with no new content either. So please enjoy. If you have not listened yet or maybe re. Listen if you only heard it when it first came out. The Great American Love Story. Of John F. Kennedy, Jr. John John and Carolyn Bessette Kennedy.

Lauren (52:21)

Enjoy.

Kagan (52:23)

All right.

Lauren (52:23)

As the days get warmer and we're

Guest (52:25)

all starting to prepare for our spring

Chandler (52:27)

routines, and we want to eat a little bit lighter, but we're still craving comfort food, I want to tell you about an amazing product where you can still eat the sandwiches, wraps and pasta, the cozy carbs you're craving without blowing up your whole plan for the week. That's Herobred Hero Bread. Tastes like real bread. It's soft, fluffy, and doesn't have that weird, grainy texture mixture. You can use HeroBread for grab and go bagels, easy lunch wraps, and indulge in pastas with low calorie noodles for dinner. Hero products have 0 to 5 grams net carbs, 0 grams sugar, and tons of fiber. The Hero noodles have 12 grams of protein and 80 calories per serving. But you would never know it from the taste. I love that. Hero isn't just bread. They also have burger buns, tortillas, bagels, and even croissants. It makes hitting your fiber goals way easier without giving up the foods you actually enjoy eating. Herobrine is offering 10 off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code POP at checkout. That's PopHero co.

Guest (53:28)

Hello, loser.

Deb (53:30)

Oh, really? Really? That's how you want to get this started? Actually, I appreciate that it's better than the well, well, well, that I'm well, well, well. Pretty sick of.

Guest (53:38)

Oh, my gosh, Chandler. Today is an interesting day recording the POD because lots going on, but we are taking a little bit of a left turn from current events.

Deb (53:55)

I'm happy to go back in time. Today feels like a very heavy day with, like, the Roe v. Wade stuff that we woke up to. The Met gala looks. A lot of them were a big fat letdown to me. So I'm happy to go back into time today.

Lauren (54:09)

Lauren? Yeah.

Guest (54:10)

I had this idea a few weeks ago. I thought let's. I think maybe once a month, let's do an episode that's just like, basically telling the story, doing a deep dive into a couple or a person or an event. Something that has a lot of public interest. So this is the first in a series of essentially pop apologists covering icons. And today we're covering an iconic couple. So we are very, very excited because we are going to be chatting the romance, the lives, the human beings, the sordid tales, the drama, the gossip, everything that you want to know about JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette Kennedy.

Deb (54:59)

Correct.

Guest (55:00)

And, you know, it's Interesting because as

Kagan (55:02)

I was reviewing all of the research

Guest (55:05)

for today, I just really loved reading about it.

Deb (55:09)

Like, yeah, it's fascinating. It's. It's fascinating to like, not only is their love story almost out of a fairy tale, but I think the history with JFK Jr. And how he was, you know, the. The boy saluting his father's casket like that, just. The history is so rich. And he was also really hot, which makes it very interesting to learn about.

Guest (55:33)

Frankly, that was actually one of the. My first go to instincts as I

Kagan (55:38)

was researching all of this was.

Guest (55:40)

Yeah, I was really just kind of taken aback by how much our country

Kagan (55:44)

used to be blessed with very attractive politicians. Like hot presidents, hot presidents, wine.

Deb (55:52)

Who else besides JFK Jr. I mean, who else besides JFK, JFK?

Guest (55:57)

I mean, people would argue that Orson Wellesley. Oh, yeah, Obama's Lincoln. I'm a huge.

Deb (56:04)

I don't know if Orson Welles was a. Was a prophet or was of the Mormon Church or if he was an American president, because I get those two. I get all those white guy names mixed up all the time.

Guest (56:14)

I have no idea who Orson Welles is, but Lincoln is super.

Deb (56:17)

Maybe he's an author.

Guest (56:18)

Anyways, I think that, yeah, there was a moment in time where politicians and.

Deb (56:24)

Hold on.

Chandler (56:25)

What?

Deb (56:25)

Can I offer a redaction? Orson Welles was an American director.

Lauren (56:28)

I don't have my shit straight. Excuse me?

Deb (56:30)

I don't have my shit straight for this. I don't know where I came up with Orson Welles was an American president. But. Sorry about that, everybody. Historians out there. Apologies. I'm not great at geography or American history, clearly. So anyways. Clearly. Okay.

Guest (56:45)

Glad you cleared that up. Glad you issued that reduction redaction anyway.

Chandler (56:49)

Yeah.

Guest (56:50)

I just think that it was just. How do you even describe it? I think that celebrities, on some level,

Kagan (56:57)

and although all the public figures that we used to care about, there was just a veneer of polish.

Deb (57:05)

Yes.

Guest (57:05)

That is absent today.

Deb (57:07)

Oh, absolutely. I think that our celebrities are much more morally bankrupt. And maybe all of these celebrities, all these icons have always been morally bankrupt, but they just weren't allowed to show it. And I think that maybe that was toxic at their time because they felt so much pressure to, you know, have that veneer or shine.

Kagan (57:25)

But.

Deb (57:25)

But sometimes I miss it.

Kagan (57:26)

No.

Deb (57:27)

For example, let's bring back the toxicity.

Guest (57:29)

In my opinion, Pete Davidson.

Deb (57:31)

I'm not super interested in him being like the icon and celebrity of my time, frankly.

Kagan (57:36)

Well, okay.

Guest (57:37)

And here's.

Kagan (57:37)

Here's really where I think the intrigue comes in. I mean, we're in such a different time where we are saturated with celebrity content. We see what they eat for lunch. We see them all the time over social media. But people like JFK Jr. Like Carolyn Bessette, they really were enigmas because they gave ver. Carolyn gave no public interviews. JFK Jr. Gave very few. And really, they were much more compelling

Deb (58:05)

characters because, well, I think I didn't

Guest (58:07)

know much about them.

Deb (58:09)

And I think there's a dynamic that has shifted where before celebrities were, you know, hid from the public, were extremely private at all costs, you know, did not want any dirty laundry aired. And now it's like, the more dirty laundry you air, the more, like, you can garner an audience or, you know, kind of, like win people over. And it's. And I don't. I don't know. I don't really know that I actually prefer one or the other because I. I like knowing what salad Kim Kardashian ate.

Chandler (58:37)

Yeah. I like the additional content, you know,

Kagan (58:39)

and I find myself disinterested in celebrities who are not playing, like, the new game. Like a Beyonce, for example.

Deb (58:45)

Beyonce?

Kagan (58:46)

Yeah. Like, I get that she's way more talented than a lot of celebrities that are much more notorious these days or get a lot more pr, But I also find myself vaguely, you know, not that interested.

Deb (59:00)

Totally. No, it's really fascinating because I feel like we're even contradicting ourselves. Like, we want it, but we also don't.

Kagan (59:07)

Yeah, well, anyway, you know, do we contradict ourselves? Very well, then we contradict ourselves.

Guest (59:12)

Let's.

Kagan (59:13)

Very well, then let's move on to JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. Because for me, I had always known that they were this com. You know, completely iconic American royalty couple. Super gorgeous. Obviously, she's an absolute style icon, but I didn't really know much else and

Guest (59:34)

kind of just want to talk about

Kagan (59:35)

her style to begin with before we get into the narrative and where they started.

Guest (59:40)

What I think is interesting about her style is that really everything that she wears is so simple, and nothing in and of itself is remarkable, but put together, she really looks just iconically beautiful. And Maybe it is that 90s classic style that, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, Kate Moss, they were all kind of famous for.

Deb (60:02)

Yeah.

Guest (60:03)

But there's just something about it. Like, if I put on, you know, bootcut khaki pants and a white tank top, I guarantee you I would not have the same level of sophistication, and it would not be nearly as distinctive.

Deb (60:17)

Even her hair is overly done. Like, it's Always like the effortless day two hair.

Kagan (60:24)

Yes.

Guest (60:24)

And that the effortless day two hair

Kagan (60:27)

is seriously impossible for me to accomplish. I will also say, though, that the

Guest (60:31)

thing that I love about her is

Kagan (60:33)

how incredibly natural her face looks like. I think Carolyn Bissette Kennedy is a

Guest (60:38)

great example to all of us to

Kagan (60:40)

remember that natural faces, faces with some flaws, faces that from some angles don't look perfect, really have a level of intrigue to them and have a level of, I think, ease to them on some level.

Guest (60:55)

Like, it's just so.

Kagan (60:55)

They're so beautiful and natural looking, and

Guest (60:58)

it's just a good reminder in the age of tweaking ourselves into Instagram perfection.

Deb (61:03)

Right, Right. Absolutely.

Kagan (61:05)

Yeah.

Deb (61:06)

So anyway, also, might I add one more thing? I'll add, I think also she looks amazing when she's standing next to a very hot guy like JFK Jr. Like, they. They're such a hot couple with their coloring, like, dark, handsome. Her, you know, bright blonde. Like, everyone's gonna be like, hey, you only like blondes.

Lauren (61:26)

But, like, she looks like a hot blonde, and he's like a hot dog.

Deb (61:29)

Dark haired guy. Like, it's like Barbie and Ken kind of. It's.

Lauren (61:33)

It's hot.

Deb (61:33)

I'm gonna say it.

Guest (61:35)

Absolutely.

Kagan (61:35)

I think that the platinum hair, actually, I think that was probably the key ingredient that allowed her to have a subdued look virtually everywhere else and.

Deb (61:45)

Right.

Kagan (61:45)

Come across as looking completely iconic at all times.

Deb (61:48)

Right. Maybe that's where mom was going with our, you know, continual efforts to be blonder and blonder.

Kagan (61:54)

Yeah, well, American royalty vibes. If only.

Deb (61:57)

If only we were a far cry from American royalty, I'll be honest.

Lauren (62:01)

But.

Kagan (62:02)

Okay, moving on.

Guest (62:03)

I think that we should get into

Kagan (62:05)

the topic at hand. Carolyn Bessette Kennedy and JFK Jr. How they met, who they were, and the story behind the iconic couple. Are you ready?

Guest (62:16)

Yes.

Deb (62:17)

Let's do it, Please.

Chandler (62:18)

Okay.

Kagan (62:20)

This is really quintessentially a 90s love story of two people, people caught between two worlds. The life they were trying to build together as husband and wife, and what the public and the Kennedy family wanted out of them. Because as you as we all know, the Kennedy family is really as close as the US has come to having a royal family.

Deb (62:42)

Yes.

Kagan (62:43)

JFK Jr was in the spotlight his entire life.

Chandler (62:47)

He. Okay.

Kagan (62:49)

When he was born, his birth announcement was on the COVID of the New York Times above the fold.

Deb (62:56)

I mean, he was America's crown prince.

Lauren (62:59)

I've heard.

Chandler (62:59)

Yes, yes.

Kagan (63:01)

And.

Guest (63:01)

And I think that to this day,

Kagan (63:04)

we don't have anyone Who?

Deb (63:06)

Baron Trump. Not Barron Trump.

Kagan (63:10)

You know, Malia Obama. I mean, they're all cute. I mean, don't have a classic American prince.

Deb (63:16)

Right? JFK Jr. Would have never gone to Coachella.

Kagan (63:19)

Absolutely not. Okay, so apparently this. I love this fact. Jackie O. Jackie Onassis Kennedy.

Deb (63:27)

Yeah.

Kagan (63:28)

Was really kind of a stage mom, if you will. She really was aggressive in wanting JFK Jr. To continue into the tradition of the Kennedy family, of the men doing the men, especially doing important, serious, respectable work. She did not want to see any sort of tomfoolery. She only wanted to see prestige and academic accomplishment.

Deb (63:56)

I mean, I think a lot was expected of her as she raised these two kids by herself after JFK passed away or was tragically shot. You know, like, I think that she was. She married into the Kennedy family. And I'm sure that a ton of pressure also came from that side of the family too, that, you know, she was just left now to navigate that by herself.

Kagan (64:16)

Yeah, that's a. That's a very good point. Well, so in an effort to have him live up to his family name, Jackie sends him to boarding school while he's at high school because he's just not. He's not performing well and she feels like he's goofing off too much. Apparently he was only getting an average grade or he was not getting good grades.

Deb (64:34)

Okay.

Kagan (64:36)

So she sends him to boarding school and he. And from there he only gets average, average grades and he's diagnosed with ADD and put on Ritalin. This didn't help. He still flunked the 11th grade, but as one does, I'm sure the Kennedy named name helped. She did not need to Photoshop him onto a picture of in the rowing team because he was able to still get into an Ivy League school. But while at school, he was put on academic probation. So Jackie would write letters to his professors, you know, apologizing, saying that he was going to do well and she was going to personally see to it that she. That he was going to do well. And interestingly enough, though, he really excelled at the theater and loved acting and drama. However, she did not approve of his love of acting, and she told him that she would disinherit him if he didn't quit his silly dreams and get serious about his future.

Deb (65:36)

I mean, that is one tough cookie. It's kind of like, also, did everybody need to become politicians from that family? Like, didn't we have enough? Interesting.

Kagan (65:47)

I think it's also interesting that him being a movie star wouldn't be enough. I mean, really? Can you imagine? You have this son. He literally looks like a Greek God, you know, descended from heaven to bless us all with his beauty. And he also has. Loves acting. And I guess, you know, being the next Cary Grant isn't Good enough for Ms. Jackie O. He's got to continue in the presidential lineage. I don't know. For me, I would be. I just want, I want the, the gods above to know that if I'm send a child with a similar level of hotness and acting ability, I will, I will nurture his God given talent.

Deb (66:26)

Well, and like, you know, I don't know, both. It's interesting that she wanted him to pursue an academic or a political career because I, I just feel like if I were her, I would have wanted to have to get away from that as much as possible and I wouldn't want to be thrust back into that spotlight again.

Kagan (66:46)

Right.

Deb (66:46)

Yeah.

Kagan (66:47)

No, I think that, I think that this is what's interesting. We've kind of talked about, you know, we look at people that are super successful, but they ha. They have like, they, they live on a height that's really far to fall from. And they want their children to also achieve the same level of success and notoriety that they have achieved most often. Like.

Chandler (67:07)

Right.

Kagan (67:08)

Most of the time these super successful people, they don't want their kids to go live normal lives. They want their kids to be stars too. And so, yeah, they, they live under a lot of pressure.

Deb (67:18)

Yeah.

Kagan (67:18)

But. Okay, moving on. So John was crowned People's Sexiest man alive in 1988. This issue of the magazine sold the most copies that it's ever sold today.

Deb (67:28)

Wow.

Kagan (67:29)

Which is pretty phenomenal. And Jackie was not happy about this. She thought it would distract from his career path. But John was totally into being a sex symbol. And he even showed up to a big Hollywood Halloween party wearing nothing but a fig leaf.

Deb (67:44)

Wow.

Guest (67:45)

Yeah.

Deb (67:45)

So he knew he was hot.

Chandler (67:47)

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Kagan (67:48)

Yes. And he, yeah, he totally leaned into that. He eventually does go to law school though, under the behest of his mother. And he graduates in 1999. To celebrate, he takes out a 46 foot yacht and sails the lake in Virginia. I just like, did the founders of J. Crew, like, did they imagine him? Is this really like the he every.

Deb (68:12)

He's out of a polo rugby dream catalog?

Kagan (68:16)

Absolutely. He brought along his new girlfriend, the stepdaughter of a billionaire that his uncle Ted set him up with, one Daryl Hannah. She was a movie star at the time. Completely stunning. He also goes on to date Sarah Jessica Parker, Madonna and Cindy Crawford.

Deb (68:34)

Insane.

Kagan (68:35)

So John takes the bar exam. And this is everyone, of course. Just remember he's living a highly public life. Like, even though he's a private person, he's being watched by the world. Yeah, for sure. And he takes the bar exam in Flunks and you know, the New York Post. It's all over the Post. The hunk flunks. It's all over the media. And he's super humiliated, not to mention his sister Caroline passes the bar on the first day.

Deb (69:05)

Try classic.

Chandler (69:06)

Yeah.

Kagan (69:07)

So he took it again in 1990, fails again, even though he, I guess, used a test prep class for that one. And you know, headlines fly. The hunk flunks again.

Lauren (69:20)

Also, can I just say, I love,

Deb (69:22)

like, I love New York Post headlines like the hunk flunks again again.

Lauren (69:27)

It's just, it's so good.

Deb (69:29)

It's such, like, camp. I don't know. I love it.

Kagan (69:32)

Jackie insisted that he continue and try again. So she hires him a private tutor. And then Chandler, this is really interesting. She petitions the bar administration to allow him to take a, to take the bar exam in a private room. This was a really big deal because you really should only be allowed to have this, like, special arrangement if you have, I guess, like some serious issues, serious medical conditions. But hard to say no to Jackie. He was allowed to take it in the private room. And third time was a charm. He finally passed the bar.

Deb (70:06)

Oh my gosh, I wonder what the headline was then.

Kagan (70:09)

Well, let's just say that the legal profession in the world at large was very happy about this because he was a natural in the courtroom. He was handsome and charming and friendly. So much so that defendants were constantly confessing things to him.

Chandler (70:24)

They.

Kagan (70:24)

People would literally turn to him as they were led away in handcuffs and say, thanks, it was so nice meeting you. Like, he was literally of the prosecutor and defendants adored him.

Deb (70:37)

That is so real. Honestly, people are suckers for a hot guy. People are suckers for a hot guy.

Kagan (70:42)

It's true.

Chandler (70:43)

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Guest (71:39)

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Chandler (71:42)

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Kagan (72:18)

So John quits his job though at

Chandler (72:20)

the Prosecutor's office in 1994.

Kagan (72:23)

Because he just said he. This is what he said. It's a nautical metaphor. So let's move with it. He says he felt like he was a passenger on an ocean liner when he wanted to be the captain.

Deb (72:34)

Okay.

Kagan (72:35)

So he grows, he. He expresses his friends newfound freedom with growing some facial hair. He grows a goatee and forms an old like goatee.

Deb (72:46)

JFK Jr. For the record.

Kagan (72:48)

Yeah. It's his least hot look for sure. He grows a goatee and forms a company with an old friend, Michael Berman. It's called Random Ventures.

Chandler (72:57)

The goal, their goal. I mean I'm really shocked this company

Kagan (73:01)

wasn't successful, but their goal was to mass produce handmade kayaks.

Deb (73:07)

Oh, perfect.

Chandler (73:09)

Doesn't it?

Kagan (73:10)

Scalable.

Chandler (73:11)

Yeah, exactly.

Lauren (73:12)

Okay.

Deb (73:13)

Michael Berman. I didn't really start at the company with Michael Berman.

Guest (73:17)

Do you know who that is?

Deb (73:18)

I do. Ding ding ding. Everyone keep that in mind for later on.

Kagan (73:23)

Okay, so John then moves on from that failed business and pitches his idea for a magazine to a mix of political and celebrity investors. The magazine would be part serious party reverent and Jackie apparently tried to talk him out of it. This was not hoity toity enough for the Kennedy name of course. However, he doesn't listen to her and creates George magazine. Apparently one of his biggest supporters at the time was his blonde haired flame, Daryl Hannah. Just a side note, Jackie was Never a huge fan of John and Daryl and I think that's probably because of Daryl's like hippie, loosey goosey esthetic. It doesn't really match the button up, buttoned up Kennedy look, you know. Okay, so this is interesting. Around this time In May of 1994, Jackie passes away and before her death. This is a strange premonition, but before her death, Jackie made Maurice Templeman, her longtime companion, promise that John would never fly an airplane. Is that interesting?

Deb (74:28)

Yeah, it's. Well, I mean, I think she knew about the Kennedy curse. Right?

Chandler (74:31)

Yeah.

Deb (74:32)

Was. Wasn't that still a thing before even this happened?

Kagan (74:35)

It was a thing. Yeah. There has been a lot of tragedies in the family.

Deb (74:38)

Yeah.

Kagan (74:39)

Yes. John's brother, who his dad had said he thought would become pre. The next President of the United States. Or not JFK Jr's brother, but his father, JFK's brother, who his dad had thought would become President of the United States.

Lauren (74:53)

Bobby.

Chandler (74:53)

Right.

Kagan (74:54)

I don't know. What. No, I, I think it was. No, no, it was someone else. It was someone.

Lauren (74:59)

Okay.

Kagan (75:00)

It was, I think the oldest son anyway. He died in World War II.

Deb (75:04)

Oh, right, right, right. Okay. The one. Yeah, like you said, the one who they thought was going to be.

Kagan (75:08)

Yeah, yeah.

Lauren (75:09)

Okay.

Kagan (75:10)

So anyway, another interesting fact about John is that he had the system. The system was arriving 15 minutes late wherever he went. That way whoever he was meeting would always already be there. That way he would not have to sit alone in public. Cuz apparently people would rush to him and start talking to him if he did. Yeah. Another people he dated included Madonna, Cindy Crawford, Sarah Jessica Parker. And at one point when he starts to date Carolyn, they briefly like break up so he can date Daryl Hannah again. But that goes down in flames in 1994.

Chandler (75:48)

Yeah.

Kagan (75:48)

In June of 1994, John and Carolyn start dating exclusively.

Deb (75:53)

So interesting note about timing here. So only a month after his mom passes away exclusively. I wonder if Jackie ever knew Carolyn

Kagan (76:05)

and if they ever met. I don't think. I don't believe they did.

Deb (76:07)

John is JFK Jr. John, you know, is in the stages and the throes of grief when him and Carolyn start explaining. Exclusively dating. That's interesting.

Guest (76:16)

Yeah.

Kagan (76:16)

I think that. Honestly, everything I'm about to say is total speculation.

Chandler (76:20)

So.

Kagan (76:20)

Okay, yeah, forgive me, but I think that really Carolyn Bassett, she wasn't a movie star. She wasn't, she wasn't Madonna, Cindy Crawford, SJP or Daryl Hannah, all icons of the time. She literally was a normal girl from a normal family. But I think she had a level of strong strength and personal fortitude and maybe even lack of vanity and ego at certain down to earthness. Something Kagan was very attracted to. About me.

Deb (76:48)

Sure.

Kagan (76:48)

Oh, gosh. And. And no.

Guest (76:52)

And I think that really, like, she

Kagan (76:54)

was just a really solid person, and I think she became really this stable center for him, at least at the beginning. Yeah.

Deb (77:02)

Though she.

Kagan (77:02)

Her mental state really unravels during their marriage. But we'll get to that in a bit.

Deb (77:08)

Okay. Okay.

Guest (77:09)

So should we dive into who Carolyn Bessette is?

Deb (77:11)

Chandler? Yes, please, please.

Kagan (77:12)

Okay. So Carolyn Bessette was born in 1966 in New York's White Plains. Her father is the engineer William J. Bessette.

Lauren (77:21)

He's just.

Kagan (77:22)

He's just an engineer. He's not a notable engineer. And his. Her mother was Anne Messina, an administrator in New York.

Deb (77:30)

Do you know any notable engineers? Just asking for a friend.

Kagan (77:33)

Well, I mean, he wasn't like Einstein, you know, or what's. Who did the light bulb. Thomas Edison. He wasn't like a notable engineer.

Deb (77:41)

Okay.

Lauren (77:42)

Okay.

Kagan (77:42)

And her mother was Anne Messina, an administrator in the New York City public school system. So she has two older sisters, twins, Lauren and Lisa. So Carolyn lived in upper middle class, traditional, normal life. She receives a degree in elementary education from Boston College. Okay. So apparently at one point, she walked into the Boston Calvin Klein store and was hired on the spot. This is so interesting. So she was so elegant and outgoing that the store manager noticed and immediately promoted her to New York. So she moves to New York, where she essentially is like this ambassador to the brand's VIP clients. And she was eventually promoted to the director of publicity for the company's flagship store in Manhattan. So she kind of becomes the local face of Calvin Klein.

Deb (78:32)

Right.

Kagan (78:32)

Can you imagine being. Being so incredibly bewitching, like, incredible, just. And like, so iconic that you just apply for a job at Calvin Klein and they're like, actually, we want you in New York and we want you to be the face of the brand.

Lauren (78:46)

Nope.

Deb (78:47)

Never. Never even come close to feeling that. That iconic.

Kagan (78:51)

No. Carolyn becomes one of Calvin Klein's muses. And apparently it said that the quote was, every time you design something, think of Carolyn Bessette. That's what was told to the Calvin Klein designers. She was also instrumental in Kate Moss's. In Kate Moss's success.

Lauren (79:09)

Okay.

Kagan (79:09)

And, yeah, and apparently Anna Wintour compared her popularity with Princess Diana, saying that she had a fabulous modern style. So Carolyn was just one of these women that truly understood how fashion worked, had an instinctual natural sense of style and was captivating to people around her.

Deb (79:30)

Absolutely.

Kagan (79:31)

She was apparently different from the typical gorgeous girls around Manhattan at the time. She didn't have the vibe that she was trying too hard. She was just completely natural and effortless. Also, something interesting about her is that she was not thirsty, so she never craved the spotlight. She, in fact, actively avoided it when she got the spotlight by dating John. She never gave any public interviews. She never created a podcast.

Guest (79:56)

She.

Kagan (79:56)

She was just.

Deb (79:58)

Well, yeah, she was just simply normal. I think also that's what makes the story so captivating, is that it's a true Cinderella type of story, right?

Kagan (80:10)

Absolutely, absolutely. So there's a lot of. There's a lot of tales on how they met. There's nothing confirmed. There's a theory that they met at an event in 1994 for Calvin Klein, and it was. It was said that she played hard to get, and that drove John crazy because he was literally like the American prince, apparently, by Deb's rules. Yeah, exactly. Another rumor was that they met while he was shopping at Calvin Klein. The rumor is that he bought. He left the store with three suits, six shirts, a bunch of ties, and Carolyn's number. So that's a little meet cute rumor for y'. All.

Lauren (80:46)

Love it.

Kagan (80:47)

Okay, so around. So around 1994, they start dating. They are not exclusive, as we said at the beginning, as we said earlier. And because he's also dating Daryl Hannah at the time, apparently this crushed Carolyn. And at one point, her mom writes to her and says, carolyn, get on with your life. Love, Mom. So I thought that was kind of funny. Some tough love. Very Deb.

Guest (81:12)

So what, Chandler?

Kagan (81:15)

What finally ends things between John and Daryl? Well, let's just say it was a fateful, fateful, untimely end for Daryl's dog.

Lauren (81:23)

Oh, my gosh.

Deb (81:24)

The Kennedy curse even applies to animals.

Kagan (81:27)

So John took Daryl's dog for a walk in NYC and accidentally dropped the leash. The dog apparently ran into traffic, got hit by a car, and died.

Chandler (81:37)

Daryl.

Kagan (81:39)

Daryl was devastated and insisted that John get the dog cremated and personally fly the remains to la, where she was going to hold a funeral for the dog. And this, I guess, was the opposite of what John wanted to do. He wanted to do especially while his mom was in extremely poor health. So John sends the dog's ashes in a plain wooden box. And this is just the nail in the coffin for Daryl. She's infuriated, and she dumps John.

Chandler (82:11)

She.

Kagan (82:11)

The fact that he did not send the dog's ashes. And something More impressive was.

Deb (82:16)

I mean, you would think that JFK Jr. Could spring for a nice vase or something, but guess not.

Guest (82:22)

He's just not a dog guy, okay?

Deb (82:24)

Apparently not. That's very sad. Also crazy that she dumped him. Do you know that Daryl Hannah was in Forrest Gump?

Guest (82:34)

Of course I knew Daryl Hannah was enforced.

Deb (82:36)

I didn't know who Daryl Hannah was.

Guest (82:38)

No. Yeah, of course.

Deb (82:40)

And she had a kid with Neil Young. This is shocking.

Guest (82:43)

So after the tragic perishing of the canine and the wooden box faux pas, John and Carolyn start dating exclusively. And by June, a month after his mother's death, he starts telling his close friends about her. They spend the summer of 1994 together. And by the end of the summer, he wants to introduce her to his family, the Kenned family, the storied Kennedy family. Carolyn, apparently more than anyone. John, who John had been with. This is a quote from one of his friends, said that she would stand up to him and confront him. And John knew he needed that.

Lauren (83:19)

Okay.

Deb (83:20)

Okay.

Lauren (83:21)

Yeah.

Chandler (83:22)

Okay.

Deb (83:22)

Love that.

Guest (83:24)

Okay, so the next tale is very, very interesting. It's all about her meeting the Kennedys.

Deb (83:30)

I just have to say, at the top. Yeah, I am someone who gets stress bowel movements around, like, situations like this. In fact, I, like, wasn't allowed to be dating when I was, like, 15. And I. Every time I would encounter my boyfriend's parents, my, like, secret boyfriend's parents, I would get, like, stress bowel movements. I'll leave it at that. So all that is to say that I cannot even imagine how stressful this would have been.

Guest (83:57)

Oh, really? See, I'm always quite confident meeting parents.

Lauren (84:01)

Like, I mean, I, like, I'm definitely

Deb (84:03)

more confident now, but it. I mean, the first time I met Ben's parents, I was totally, like, not, like, stressed, but super nervous.

Guest (84:11)

I mean, the thing is, is, like, I'm confident meeting people's parents, but only because I feel confident around normal people. Like, if I was me, if I was getting engaged to Barack Obama's son or something, let me just say, like, some fictional son, I would be terrified. Like, imagine some, like, trashy pop apologist hoe, like, with basically no esteemed accomplishments walking in. Oh, my gosh.

Deb (84:36)

Oh, no.

Guest (84:37)

That.

Deb (84:37)

See that? You'd be sent home before, you know, dinner was even served, so.

Lauren (84:42)

Absolutely.

Guest (84:43)

And so I think that probably played into it. She's from a normal background. She was working for Calvin Klein, you know, npr. She did not have some crazy accomplishments behind her. She wasn't a celebrity. And so really, it would be extremely intimidating to meet this storied family, beyond intimidating. Okay, so apparently this event happened. The meet happened over a. Over Labor Day weekend at Hyannis Port. The annual Kennedy Clam bake. Chandler.

Chandler (85:12)

What?

Guest (85:13)

Imagine you pull up.

Chandler (85:14)

Oh, this is.

Guest (85:15)

No, I have the chills. Just imagine you're dating this American royalty, and you pull up and this. Dude, it's three white mansions on six acres of beachfront property. Like, yes, I would be embarrassed of

Kagan (85:29)

myself, but I would also fully feel

Guest (85:31)

like this was the life I was meant for.

Deb (85:33)

Oh, I. No, it's unfathomable. Unfathomable. I mean, to have grown up to knowing, like, of the family name and then to be feel like you have a chance at joining, that is out of control.

Guest (85:45)

Out of control. I cannot even imagine how nervous she was and just how fabulous this weekend was.

Kagan (85:51)

Right.

Guest (85:52)

So apparently Carolyn was completely shocked by how formal these Kennedy gatherings were, even though they were just family weekends. Everyone was in suits and dresses, but she did. She did dress appropriately. She wore a white silk shirt with a mauve blouse and a pink scarf draped around her neck.

Kagan (86:10)

Very elegant.

Deb (86:12)

Very elegant.

Guest (86:13)

Carolyn, though, bombed her first dinner at the Kennedy compound. On that? Yeah, on that. I'm assuming this is in the, like, Hamptons Hyannis Port on that Hyannis Port weekend.

Deb (86:24)

No, no, it's in Massachusetts.

Chandler (86:26)

Whatever.

Deb (86:27)

It's like, on the tomato.

Lauren (86:28)

I think I'm.

Deb (86:29)

Yeah, I literally think I'm going to Hannah's port, like, at the end of August. Dramatic.

Lauren (86:34)

Like a.

Guest (86:35)

Like a Southern California hoe. Is all the same to me. But you are going to Cape Cod.

Deb (86:40)

Yeah, I'm going to Cape Cod in August.

Guest (86:42)

Oh, for what?

Deb (86:44)

For vacation.

Guest (86:46)

I know, but, like, just. Just with Ben, like the.

Deb (86:48)

The group that I went to Nantucket with last year. Remember that whole thing? Remember when you were like, oh, I get it. You're going to Nantucket. Yeah, we had a blast. So we're.

Guest (86:57)

Are there two extra spots?

Chandler (86:59)

No.

Guest (86:59)

Can Kayan and I come?

Deb (87:00)

No, there's not two extra spots. Sorry.

Guest (87:02)

Wait, really, though? Are there really? For sure not.

Deb (87:06)

I know for a fact there's not. And all the air mattresses are sold out on Amazon until the end of time. Whatever.

Guest (87:13)

Okay, so she bombs the first dinner.

Deb (87:16)

Wait, what happens?

Guest (87:17)

So Ethel Kennedy, the matriarch of the family, comes to sit next to Carolyn, who had an empty seat next to her, and when she goes to sit down, everyone else stands. And can you imagine how formless family is? They stand in respect to the matriarch.

Deb (87:30)

No.

Guest (87:30)

Can you imagine if Deb expected us to just like stand whenever she entered the room.

Deb (87:35)

Never. Never.

Guest (87:36)

Never.

Kagan (87:36)

Absolutely not.

Guest (87:37)

So Carolyn, though, noticed that everyone was standing up a little late. It was kind of like this moment. And she was mortified that she didn't stand up quick enough, that she stood up late. Apparently, Ethel Kennedy. So this is another thing that I'm just very grateful about. Kagan's family, they, they're not interested in quizzing you on current events to see how learned you are. But apparently the Kennedy family was. So Ethel Kennedy loved to discuss current events in politics, and she quizzed Carolyn about Carolyn's thoughts on the federal assault weapons ban. Carolyn, I guess, was too busy listening to the Pop Apologist podcast to care about this ban or to think how many, you know, formulated thoughts about it. So Ethel told her, you might want to read up on that. It's quite important. And this was super embarrassing in front of everyone.

Chandler (88:33)

Apparently.

Guest (88:33)

Ethel also says to Carolyn, a scarf in this weather, I'm feeling overheated just looking at you. And then, yes.

Deb (88:43)

It's like, it's be.

Lauren (88:44)

It's beyond.

Guest (88:46)

That's the thing too, is like, you know, the person who's trying to embarrass you and make you look like a fool.

Deb (88:52)

Yes, exactly.

Guest (88:53)

Like if, if I get the vibe someone doesn't know what I'm talking about,

Kagan (88:57)

I'm not going to lay into them.

Deb (88:59)

Exactly.

Guest (89:00)

Tell them they might want to read up on it, that it's super important. So anyway, quite, quite rude. And this really lays a foundation for their relationship. Carolyn doesn't enjoy being around his family and that is a huge source of strain for them in their marriage. So apparently all the dinner was not just the end of Carolyn's faux pas. The rest of the weekend was a disaster too. She missed a few meals because John forgot to tell her that there was a sign up sheet for breakfast and lunch. Seems a little strange that you'd have to sign up for breakfast and lunch.

Deb (89:35)

A little campy for the America's royal family, but yeah.

Guest (89:40)

And she also had trouble keeping people's names straight. She put her foot in her mouth a lot and Ethel saw it all and was shaking her head during this weekend.

Deb (89:50)

Oh my gosh.

Lauren (89:51)

Okay, so.

Guest (89:52)

So moving on from this terrible weekend though, to John's George magazine. So around this time, he's dating Carolyn. Things are getting more serious, actually very serious. And he pivots from the handmade kayaks from the mass produced handmade kayaks business and creates George magazine. He receives 20 million to start the magazine from a mix of investors okay. And the magazine's first office is on the 41st floor of a Manhattan high rise. It's not glamorous, though. There's coffee stains on the carpet and the walls are super grimy. But he didn't care. He was so excited to launch this venture and to launch.

Deb (90:30)

This has. This has Arthur George vibes to me. Maybe it's just the name. I don't know.

Lauren (90:36)

I don't know.

Kagan (90:36)

I kind of love it.

Deb (90:37)

I kind of love it.

Guest (90:38)

I mean, as two people who have created, like, a little publication as you

Deb (90:43)

audio publication, I'm allowed to, you know, shit and other people's side hustles and not my own. Oh, right, right, right. For sure.

Guest (90:51)

We are famous for being hypocritical, if anything. Okay, so In July of 1995, after

Lauren (90:58)

a year of dating.

Guest (90:59)

Wow, this is impressive. John. And John proposed to Carolyn.

Deb (91:03)

It is impressive because it's so fast.

Guest (91:07)

It's so fast. I mean, that is just so hot. I love. It's the same thing as Megan and Harry. I love a fast engagement. To me, it speaks to passion. It speaks to romance.

Deb (91:15)

It speaks.

Kagan (91:16)

Speaks. Speaks to death.

Deb (91:17)

I mean, it just speaks to men wanting to settle down, which we love to see.

Guest (91:21)

Which we love to see. It speaks to families being created. Okay, so in July of 1995.

Kagan (91:28)

Yes.

Guest (91:29)

After a year of dating, John proposes to Carolyn in a fishing rowboat while on a weekend at the Kennedy compound. Apparently, he gets down on one knee. This is all very the Notebook to me. The Notebook, S.L.

Lauren (91:39)

j.

Guest (91:39)

Crew, Fever Dream. But he gets down on one knee and he says, fishing is better with a partner. Everything is better with a partner. Will you marry me?

Deb (91:48)

Okay, Karen, I don't love this. I don't love this. I don't love this metaphor. I. I didn't love the cruise liner one.

Guest (91:55)

It's a little.

Deb (91:55)

I don't love the fishing. It's super lazy.

Guest (91:58)

It's like no Brad foundation.

Deb (92:00)

It's not stirring at all. He doesn't even touch on her beauty, for the record.

Guest (92:05)

No, he doesn't. He does not touch on how hot. How hot she is. And that is really, really terrible.

Deb (92:11)

Totally. It's a travesty.

Guest (92:13)

Now that I think of it. Kagan did not mention anything about my physical appearance during his proposal. And I'm gonna tell him it must go in the vows.

Deb (92:20)

I mean, yeah, I just, like. I don't know if you should still marry him, but I, like.

Guest (92:23)

I would like 90 of the vows to be about, like, different body parts and facial features that he's into.

Deb (92:30)

He better start writing now.

Kagan (92:32)

Yeah. Because it better be.

Deb (92:33)

Oh, wait, he is. You find him in the middle of the night, like, feverishly writing his vows.

Chandler (92:37)

That's right.

Guest (92:38)

I do. That's right. Just completely stressed. Just dripping with sweat by candlelight with a fire lit.

Deb (92:45)

Right.

Guest (92:45)

Pen and quill. Okay. Apparently Carolyn responds and says, I don't know. I'm afraid people will judge me, especially your family. And she's afraid she'll never be able to live a life marrying a Kennedy. So three weeks go by and finally Carolyn agrees to marry him. This I think is super interesting because it really shows that she understood, like, she understood what the problem would be in their marriage and ultimately what it was that she did not like being a Kennedy and did not like his family.

Kagan (93:18)

Right, right.

Deb (93:18)

And I'm sure saw the strife of Jackie and, you know, she just wasn't blind to any of it.

Guest (93:24)

Right. The ring was a delicate platinum band of diamonds and sapphires. It's just alternating diamonds and sapphires. It was similar to one that his mother had. They kept the engagement quiet for a few weeks and only told their closest friends because they knew the press would be all over them. Also, this was right before the launch of George magazine. And apparently someone leaks it to the press. So not wanting the press to focus on his engagement, John made a public statement statement that they were not engaged. And this was very upsetting to Carolyn.

Kagan (93:58)

I used to primarily focus on the outer layer of my outfit.

Chandler (94:03)

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Guest (95:07)

Okay, so that is up to the engagement. Chandler, do you want to take us from here beyond the engagement and into. Into that stormy, stormy Martha's Vineyard evening?

Deb (95:20)

So let's talk about a few fights that happened during their engagement. All right. Okay. John and Carolyn are out to dinner with friends. And what we're gonna see is that Carolyn is resistant to going to a lot of Kennedy family events, obviously, because it's terrible to be with his family. And so they sort of get into it. And, you know, he says, don't come with me.

Lauren (95:43)

Hell if I care.

Deb (95:44)

I'm sick of having this same fight. And he says, you know, you're crying because you don't want to have fun on the beach with my family. Which is like not what it is at all. Like they just sign up and for breakfast, lunch or breakfast and lunch, and also wear suits and dresses. Carolyn gets up, she runs out. He turns to his friends. I mean, it's also like pretty tacky to fight in front of your friends, in my opinion. But he turns to his dinner companions and kind of asks if he should go after her. And they're like, don't be an idiot. Go after her. And you know, he was, goes and looks for her in the streets of Manhattan, doesn't find her. And you know, he says to them, she took a cab back to the apartment. I guess, what a big baby. Not a good look. And I think his friends try to reason with him and they say, he says to them, she wants to marry me and this is my family. Why can't she just get over herself?

Lauren (96:29)

It's not that simple.

Deb (96:31)

And his friends say, do you know how hard it is to blend in with the Kennedys? You know, and now you're making her feel bad about it. Like this would take a very long time to grapple with anyways, they make up.

Kagan (96:42)

Well. Yeah.

Deb (96:44)

Well, I just want to say that

Guest (96:45)

I think this is a good, very good contrast to Prince Harry. Prince Harry knew that becoming a royal was absolutely going to be terrible. He understood what, you know, having to deal with his family was going to bring into Meghan's life. So I'm actually reading a. Basically a tome about the royals that just came out by Tina Brew, right? Yeah, yeah, it's so good. I'm going to do a full deep dive on the pod. And anyway, I just want to say though, that what one of the things she says is that he tried to actually keep the her from the family from, for a while during that relationship because he knew how terrible it would be. So it's interesting that John did not have the same, I guess, perspective.

Deb (97:27)

Okay. Okay.

Guest (97:29)

Obviously, John's mother wasn't killed by the paparazzi, though, but I guess his father was.

Chandler (97:33)

I don't know.

Guest (97:33)

Anyway, just kind of an interesting contrast.

Deb (97:36)

Right?

Chandler (97:37)

Right.

Deb (97:38)

No, I think that's a great parallel to draw. So, you know, another fight happens, and this fight is pretty iconic. I'm sure everyone has seen the images of them fighting in Washington Square Park. And, I mean, it's a very, like, heated fight. Right. You know, maybe just heated fights are in the brain because of Johnny and Amber. But, like, you know, he grabs her arm and it seems to, like, take off her engagement ring. She jumps back, jumps on his back to, like, get it back. And then he. He gives it back to her eventually. And, you know, she tries to take their dog's leash out of his hands. And he says, you've got my ring. You're not gonna get my dog too. Just like. And I'm taking the dog kind of moment from Legally Blonde.

Guest (98:19)

But anyhow, the fights. The photos of them fighting really are so just.

Lauren (98:26)

It's.

Guest (98:26)

They look extremely aggressive. Like, there's one point, like you said, he's sitting on the curb with his head in his hands, and she looks like she's screaming at him. There's another part where he looks like he's screaming at her.

Deb (98:38)

Right.

Guest (98:39)

So anyway, yeah, I think spicy. A little Johnny Amber vibes happening.

Deb (98:43)

So two things here. One is that this fight is not about meeting his family. This fight is about his relationship with the press. And it was about, actually a wedding that they had gone to a few weeks before, and they had been sat next to a New York Times society page editor. And, you know, Carolyn realized that was the only reason why they were invited, was to, you know, have their names, you know, as part of the guest list, you know, at X, Y, or Z wedding. And she just felt like people were using John. And she had said to him, you need to, you know, I guess, cut the nice guy act and. And not, you know, give in to the press and have some boundaries. Clearly, she has boundaries herself. And he didn't take it well.

Guest (99:20)

She didn't like going to all those events.

Deb (99:22)

Absolutely. And especially events where they're just being used.

Guest (99:28)

For me, I mean, a fancy wedding, getting to dress up, doing all that fun stuff, like, if my. The goal of my life would be to be so notorious and beloved that I'm just invited to all these events

Kagan (99:42)

that I otherwise have like, no place at.

Deb (99:44)

Right.

Guest (99:44)

I mean, for me, it's just like such.

Kagan (99:46)

It's not even a first world problem. It's like a first person problem.

Guest (99:49)

It's just like, oh, another fancy event.

Kagan (99:52)

I don't want to go. And they're only inviting us because we're

Guest (99:55)

just so fabulous and famous.

Deb (99:58)

But I think, like, the other aspect of this incident is that the paparazzi captures everything.

Lauren (100:05)

And it's like they have a very

Deb (100:07)

serious fight about the way their different perspectives on press and, you know, like, their society life and it's all captured and that.

Guest (100:15)

Obviously, much more comfortable with it, obviously.

Deb (100:18)

And, you know, I mean, he's been photographed since he was a baby, but it's just the writing on the wall for why their marriage was so difficult and, you know, why it ultimately, like, was headed for a demise.

Guest (100:28)

Right, right.

Deb (100:29)

So this is an interesting story that a couple weeks later, Carolyn flies to D.C. because she's summoned there by Ethel Kennedy, the very Ethel who. The one she snubbed by not standing up quick enough. Right.

Guest (100:45)

And one that did not approve her at first.

Deb (100:47)

Okay, what's in and what's interesting? And this is why, like, I would have been so livid. She begs John to come with her. Like, she says, like, I don't want to go meet your grandma by myself. Like, and he.

Lauren (100:58)

He's afraid of her as well.

Deb (100:59)

So he actually says he's got business to take care of at George Arthur George magazine or whatever, the sock magazine. And he.

Lauren (101:08)

He stays.

Deb (101:09)

He literally cowers and doesn't go with her. And so she goes by herself, I guess. Actually, no, she brought a wing woman. But it's not. It's not.

Lauren (101:16)

It's.

Deb (101:16)

Nobody cares about. It's not the same. It's like, I mean, I would literally have killed. I would have killed Ben if. Like, anyways, right. Sorry for another day. But so, you know, when Ethel comes out to meet her, she actually has this, like, very Queen Elizabeth, like, I don't know, scary, menacing moment where she says, you were afraid to meet me alone. You know, people think I'm scary and they think that because it's true. And, like, well, who talks like that? Is this, like freaking Judi Dench on clickhole?

Lauren (101:47)

Like, who's. Who is.

Deb (101:49)

It's just. It's just the amount of arrogance and self importance that the Kennedys have is insane.

Guest (101:55)

Incredibly cinematic. What an incredibly, like, cinematic family and experience to be a part of and to have.

Deb (102:01)

Right. And then what's interesting is that they start to sort of open up to Each other. And she talks about, you know, what it's like to be married to a Kennedy and the difficulties, you know, and it's interesting because Ethel says, like, Ethel

Guest (102:15)

does or Carolyn does.

Deb (102:16)

Ethel talks. They both start to.

Lauren (102:19)

Ethel. Excuse me.

Deb (102:20)

Ethel starts to talk to Carolyn about what it's like to be married to a kid Kennedy. Okay.

Guest (102:23)

And the difficulties there.

Deb (102:25)

She tells Carolyn that she repeats her mantra, which is I am enough, which is something out of, like, a 2020 therapist book, you know, talk space thing. But it's interesting that she. She says that. You know, she literally says that to herself, I am enough. Because there's such an imposter syndrome, you know, wow. With this family and that. She says it will sink in eventually and that no one can take that away, not even the Kennedys. And she tells her.

Lauren (102:47)

I know it is. And she.

Deb (102:48)

She tells her that she shouldn't let, you know, John or the reporters or anyone change who you are in her. In here. Excuse me. She says that she shouldn't let John or reporters or anyone else change who she is. Like, in here, which is. She points to her heart or something like that, which is like, wow, what a turnover. Touching. It's like, cinematic to go from, like, you're afraid to meet me alone, you know, because people think I'm scary. They think it's true. It's like Bourne. Jason Bourne or whatever.

Guest (103:13)

Yeah.

Deb (103:15)

So clearly this is some sort of turning point, and maybe this makes, you know, Carolyn feel better about the trajectory of their engagement and their relationship moving forward. Okay, so let's talk about their wedding, which was iconic. It. It took a CIA level of effort to plan this wedding because it was a complete secret. Wow. And one thing I realized is. Or one thing that I saw was that John's gift to her was a wedding that felt real to them. It was a wedding that didn't have paparazzi or fans or the whole, you know, show dog and pony show. It was a very real wedding. And I thought that was so touching because knowing her perspective on the press and their life in the limelight, you know, he really. It was a grand gesture for him to have this wedding be a complete secret.

Lauren (104:07)

Yeah.

Deb (104:09)

So just a few notes about the secrecy and how insane it was. The guests were given Dave's notice. Okay. And.

Guest (104:15)

Okay.

Deb (104:15)

When they were given notice, they didn't know when or where it was going to take place, because obviously the press would have had a heyday. So there was, like, no chance of leaks. I mean, only 40 people were invited.

Kagan (104:26)

And so 40 is so small.

Deb (104:28)

Like it's so impossibly small when you're from the Kennedys to.

Kagan (104:32)

The pointed family was not invited.

Deb (104:35)

No, he only invited like one cousin from every family, which is pretty insane. So 40 people and they had no heads up. You know, they were just like, basically, from what I've gathered, they were told to buy a plane ticket to Florida. Okay. When they were, you know, let in, like, hey, something's happening. They had to buy a plane ticket to Florida. And then from their flight in Florida, they were driven to a town in Georgia. They still don't know where they're going.

Chandler (105:03)

Okay.

Deb (105:03)

And they got on a lobster boat that then, then took them to the island. And then they just like set off in darkness, like nobody knew where they were going even on the boat. And a lobster boat is not fancy. It is not a, you know, it's, it's not a river cruise. It is a like lobster fishing boat.

Lauren (105:19)

Right.

Deb (105:20)

And they arrive to. It's just, I mean, there's footage because one of John's friends, Billy, captured everything with his like, handheld camera. That's kind of the only footage we have. And they arrive to a twinkling light dinner, and only upon rising the next morning do they realize where they are. Which is Cumberland island off of the coast of Georgia.

Kagan (105:41)

That's so cool. Like, what an experience.

Deb (105:45)

Yeah. I bought the secret tapes or something. And it's like this, whatever footage this is from Billie and it's beautiful to watch. You can have my login.

Kagan (105:54)

You're welcome. We should try to put some of it up on Instagram.

Deb (105:57)

Yeah, yeah.

Kagan (105:58)

For the peeps.

Deb (106:00)

So just a little note about this island. It's extremely remote and small. It's a mile off the coast of Georgia and only 50 residents live there, which is crazy.

Chandler (106:10)

Okay.

Lauren (106:10)

Yeah.

Kagan (106:11)

I mean, it's just I, I love everything about this because I love the

Guest (106:15)

idea of a low key wedding as

Kagan (106:16)

someone who's having kind of more of a, an actual three day affair. Right.

Guest (106:22)

I just love the idea of this casual island wedding.

Kagan (106:25)

It's so raw.

Lauren (106:26)

Both, both have their perks, but, you

Deb (106:29)

know, this was really such a beautiful juxtaposition for like the life that they'd had and the life that they were, you know, going to have that was unfortunately cut short. So let's talk about the ceremony. They had the, the wedding at a small church. I mean, you'll recognize this church from that iconic photo which I'll post in the teasers of them leaving. You know, it's very old, there's no electricity there's no air conditioning. And the guests are seated and ready to arrive. John arrives a little bit late because he claims he couldn't find his shirt. And Carolyn actually had a dress malfunction where when she was getting. Literally getting the dress put on her, it wouldn't go over her head. So they had to, like, someone was, like, had some quick thinking, and they put a self silk scarf around her, like, head and shoulders, and that was able to let the dress, like, slide down, but then redo her hair and makeup. Oh, my gosh, how stressful. And like, I mean, the dress is pretty simple looking, but just knowing that there was this whole malfunction and that.

Kagan (107:29)

So there was no zipper on the dress.

Deb (107:31)

I don't think so. Yeah.

Kagan (107:32)

Wow.

Deb (107:33)

And. And so she was two hours late to her own wedding, which caused there to be no daylight. And it basically turned into this. This stunning candlelit wedding because they just grab some of the. The religious candles from the, you know, the altar or whatever and lit those around the church.

Chandler (107:51)

Okay. That.

Kagan (107:52)

I have the chills. I'm just gonna say I think that this is so cool. And it makes sense because that in that iconic photo of her exiting the church where we all, you know, have a spiritual moment witnessing that stunning, simple dress, I think that it makes sense now because they're in darkness.

Guest (108:08)

It's clear that it's at night.

Chandler (108:09)

So how cool.

Kagan (108:10)

How interesting.

Deb (108:11)

And I don't think that night weddings are really done all that much. Like, it was truly that they.

Lauren (108:16)

That they were.

Deb (108:17)

That they left the church when it was, you know, dark outside.

Kagan (108:20)

Right, right. Wow.

Deb (108:22)

So, yeah, I mean, and then they just have, like, you know, this intimate reception with. With people and with other dearest friends and family and. Yeah, it's just like, you know, an iconic moment that people really don't know about.

Kagan (108:36)

Is the video of the reception or is it of the church?

Deb (108:40)

I think it's both. I think it's almost. It's not of, like, everything I'm gonna start saying finish. No, no, you should. You should watch it. It's lovely. And I mean, you can hear some of their vows. I'm pretty sure you can hear his speech to Carolyn, you know, at the dinner, where he says, like, really, no one has changed my life more than Carolyn or something like that. It's much better than the fishing speech, I'll tell you that much.

Chandler (109:02)

Wow. Okay.

Lauren (109:03)

Yeah.

Deb (109:04)

So, I mean, another note. Guests drove in convertible Jeeps, like, through the pouring rain to the reception. Like, it was very rugged. It was not very posh. Yeah.

Kagan (109:13)

Very cool.

Guest (109:15)

So, you know, this is something I want to say.

Deb (109:18)

Yeah.

Kagan (109:18)

I want to say that on some level, it's like, if you had. I'm sure it would be beautiful. But there's something about, like, having a wedding in a rundown, you know, old church with no AC and then having to drive through the rain. And, like, the ruggedness. The com. The reason why it's so cool and compelling is because it's set against all of their wealth and all of the event that could have happened. So I think that's kind of funny.

Deb (109:45)

It's like. It's like a marvel that they were so rugged and undone for their wedding because they're so rich in, like, hoity toity.

Guest (109:52)

Right?

Deb (109:53)

Correct.

Kagan (109:53)

Amazing.

Chandler (109:54)

Okay.

Deb (109:54)

Exactly.

Kagan (109:55)

Can we talk about the dress, though?

Deb (109:57)

Yeah, let's talk about the dress. So her dress was designed by Narciso Rodriguez. He was a friend of hers, you know, from her days as a Calvin Klein publicist. And. And this really, like, spotlighted him and catapulted him into, you know, stardom as a designer because it was so beautiful. And the dresses at the time were more ball gowny. They were much more, like, big and ornate. And so, you know, this was kind of an iconic design because people were just not simplifying in this way. In fact, like, I even heard of one designer. I think it's one of the guys from Queer Eye, and he was like, you know, they. People wouldn't even feel comfortable wearing a slip dress out to an occasion or like a dinner party, let alone to their wedding. So it was just a very, very bold expression.

Kagan (110:45)

Well, I think that also, obviously it's

Guest (110:48)

emblematic of her personal style.

Kagan (110:50)

It's very true to her, but also it fits the event.

Deb (110:53)

Right?

Kagan (110:53)

A 40 person, very rugged, simple event.

Guest (110:58)

It definitely fits the event.

Kagan (110:59)

And I think that I really wanted a simple silhouette for my dress kind of to go with a similar vibe, but I just almost felt like it didn't fit the event. Like, I needed a dress that kind of was, like, fit the mood. So anyway, I. Maybe I'm just apologizing for not having a simple, minimalist vibe, but I definitely want a Carolyn Bessette moment at my wedding weekend. Some simple silk.

Deb (111:24)

Totally. Rehearsal dinner or. Yeah,

Lauren (111:30)

okay.

Deb (111:30)

So, yeah, that's. That's the wedding. And I think it's definitely worth everyone watching any and all, like, films about this because it's just. It's really iconic and the photos are beautiful and they both just look stunning. And I think, like, the leaving the church photo is just now Something I absolutely want at my future wedding.

Lauren (111:49)

Like, it's just.

Deb (111:50)

It's so amazing. It's so much more special than any other staged, like family photo or like here we're posing, you know, next to whatever.

Chandler (111:58)

Right.

Deb (111:59)

Anyway.

Guest (111:59)

Right, Absolutely.

Deb (112:00)

I mean, it's all about it.

Guest (112:01)

It's just.

Kagan (112:02)

It's similar to the photo of them where she's wearing his jacket and leaning back into him and she's wearing a black dress and has red lipstick on. That iconic photo. Yeah.

Guest (112:14)

Anyway, just absolutely in love with them.

Deb (112:16)

I mean, all of the photos that they have together, they just truly seem so passionate and in love. Right, so to take a sharp left, let's talk about their early marriage. And, you know, they have a blissful couple of weeks honeymooning. But, you know, upon returning to New York, the usual, you know, fanfare and press shenanigans just pick right back up where they left off. And we start to see that, you know, John is spending a lot of time working on George magazine. And if he. He's not working, he's spending a lot of time with either his friends or, you know, the Kennedy family, which we know she doesn't love to join.

Lauren (112:54)

So that's.

Deb (112:55)

They got married in 1996. And by 1998. Yeah, 1998, we start to see Carolyn in decline. Okay, we have a story from one of her friends who says she went to dinner one night when John was sick at home with the flu, and she made at least a half dozen trips to the bathroom and came back to the table with white rings around her nostrils.

Lauren (113:13)

With.

Deb (113:13)

We went from bar to bar and she wanted to come over to my apartment, but I said no because I knew it would be an all nighter. I finally dropped her off at 3am the next morning. Obviously, she's doing heavy cocaine. You know, John asked the friend the next day, you know, why did you keep my wife out so late? And they say, a better question, John, is why did your wife not want to go home?

Kagan (113:34)

Well, because what I've read is that he got so busy working and as you said, like going to these Kennedy events that she didn't really want to go to. And she was very lonely. Totally. And they were really not connecting because they didn't. They didn't enjoy their spare time in the same way.

Deb (113:51)

Right, right. Which is. Which is very important.

Kagan (113:55)

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Deb (113:57)

So I think a watershed moment or a turning point in, you know, their kind of struggle as newlyweds is when she runs into Michael Bergen, who, if you'll remember, was the guy he started that handmade kayak company with.

Kagan (114:11)

Right, oh, okay.

Chandler (114:13)

Yeah.

Kagan (114:13)

The guy who started the handmade kayak company, the mass scale handmade kayak company, mass produced handmade kayak company with, I mean, John.

Deb (114:22)

Yeah.

Guest (114:23)

Before magazine.

Deb (114:25)

Interesting to note the iconic Mark Wahlberg Calvin Klein ads. You remember those?

Chandler (114:30)

Yes.

Deb (114:31)

He is the crotch in those ads.

Kagan (114:33)

Oh, okay. So he's packing some heat is what you're trying to say.

Deb (114:36)

Yeah. Wow.

Kagan (114:37)

Deb's gonna be thrilled.

Deb (114:38)

Hope nobody's.

Kagan (114:38)

Thank you for that note. Thank you for that detail.

Deb (114:41)

You know, she runs into him and you know, it's reported that he makes her feel like her old self again. And they meet for coffee even at one point, you know, they're hanging out later into the night and they share a kiss. Which is like if you're in a happy relationship, you're really not gonna put yourself in those situations. Absolutely.

Kagan (115:01)

You're so correct. It's like the kiss really wasn't where like the second thought of wrong turn happened. It was deciding to hang out with him after hours, likely, you know, because

Chandler (115:13)

you're not going to be in an

Kagan (115:13)

environment where that's appropriate otherwise.

Deb (115:15)

Right. And as this kiss happens, she pulls away and stops and says, what am I doing? She tells him it can never happen again. And she comes clean to JFK Jr. Okay, clean to John. And what's crazy is that, you know, she has a sale later, she comes clean to JFK's, clean to his father, not to him. But if you, you know, if you come clean to like your passed away father in law, it's fine. But John poses as the police like and buzzes at Michael's door and Michael lets him up and John immediately just decks him in the face when he sees him. Wow, it's hot after finding out. Yeah, it's pretty hot. So I guess, you know, this is

Guest (115:54)

when this about how violence is never

Kagan (115:56)

the kind of answer.

Deb (115:59)

But this doesn't end. This does not end like their emotional affair, which is what she tells JFK Jr that she says it's not sex, you know, it's. He just, you know, I can talk to him about my life and he understands me, yada, yada, yada. And you know, they try, they continue

Kagan (116:14)

to see each other.

Deb (116:15)

They continue to see each other. And this really makes JFK Jr upset. Obviously if you share a kiss with anybody and you're trying to restore your marriage, you should never see that person ever again, especially solo.

Kagan (116:30)

I just think that it's actually inappropriate once you're in a partnership. Once you're in a marriage

Guest (116:37)

to have

Kagan (116:38)

friends that you hang out with of the opposite sex. I just a. One on one. It's not appropriate.

Lauren (116:42)

It's just really not.

Kagan (116:44)

Do you agree or disagree?

Deb (116:45)

I disagree. I don't think that it's like, I don't know, I think that there are like their, like female friends, like before he knew me that like.

Kagan (116:53)

Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying like new friends.

Chandler (116:56)

I don't know.

Kagan (116:56)

I guess I just. I mean, but I also think that, like, it's not appropriate to hang out, especially repetitively with one member of the opposite.

Deb (117:03)

Oh, yes, absolutely. Like repetitively after hours when you could be spending time with your partner. It's super weird. It's totally a red flag. I mean, and of course, if you've ever had any type of romantic connection to them, let alone like kiss them

Kagan (117:16)

or your ex boyfriend.

Chandler (117:17)

Yeah.

Deb (117:18)

Yes. So, you know, they try to give their marriage a second chance. They go to counseling, the counselor brings up her drug habits. This just sends her into a rage. It's not working. And, you know, they're sleeping in different bedrooms. At a certain point, JFK eventually just moves to a hotel. And it's just like this marriage, you know, has. Is crumbling so fast. I mean, it's only been two years.

Chandler (117:44)

Yeah.

Deb (117:45)

And you know, it's 1999. And you know, just a couple of days. He. Just a couple of days before the inevitable plane crash, he is talking to a friend and he says, I want to have kids, but whenever I raise the subject with Carolyn, she turns away and refuses to have sex with me. Wow. You know, he's sitting on the edge.

Kagan (118:07)

She's 33.

Chandler (118:08)

Right.

Kagan (118:08)

Because I remember that's when they.

Deb (118:09)

She wasn't 66. Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren (118:12)

Wow.

Kagan (118:13)

Okay.

Deb (118:14)

And, you know, maybe she just felt like she wasn't happy and it's just so, so sad. So at this time, John has just recovered from an ankle accident. He was like a big sports guy, like lots of, you know, fun sports when you're super rich and, you know, can own paragliding stuff. So he's recovering from his ankle accident and he hasn't been flying this whole time because he's not allowed to fly solo. Well, he can't use his, like, one foot, obviously. So after, you know, getting out of his cast, he wants to fly. He is planning on flying himself to Hyannis Port for his cousin's wedding that weekend. Okay. Carolyn does not want to go. They are struggling big time as a couple, and she obviously has never liked being at Kennedy events. Is not looking forward to this family wedding. And ultimately, you know, most devastating now in hindsight is she didn't feel comfortable flying with John.

Chandler (119:12)

I reckon another.

Deb (119:14)

Yeah, she never. She didn't feel comfortable. And she even said, I'm secretly terrified of flying with John because he's so easily distracted. He's got that adhd. She said, he doesn't seem to take it seriously enough.

Guest (119:26)

Yeah, and this is where we get

Deb (119:28)

to some of the fatal mistakes and, you know, factors that led to the, you know, tragic crash. Let me. So let me back up a little bit. So Carolyn doesn't want to go. She's at this point, not going to the wedding. But in. During that week, Carolyn's sister Lauren arranges a meeting with JFK Jr. Herself and Carolyn, and. And she offers to come along to the wedding as moral support to Carolyn. And Carolyn agrees to then go, which then brings us to Friday afternoon, which is the day they're supposed to take off to go to the wedding.

Guest (120:00)

That fateful day.

Kagan (120:01)

Okay.

Deb (120:02)

Yeah. That fateful day. And I didn't. Yeah. I did research on this crash, and there's a lot more to what happened than even what I knew before this. So there's. He's set to depart from New Jersey's Essex County Airport. And if anyone has ever lived in New York or been in New York and had to catch a flight on Friday, there's crazy traffic getting out of the city on Fridays. I've missed. I missed my flight coming home when I was initially, like, you know, moving here because of just Friday traffic. It's crazy. So the traffic is very bad. And John is now running late. Lauren, Carolyn's sister, is also running late from a meeting in the city. And, you know, this delay means that he now has to fly at night.

Kagan (120:43)

I heard she was also getting a pedicure, too. So they were all late.

Deb (120:46)

They were all late. And, you know, another factor is that John has only had this plane for, I think, 11 weeks. He's still getting used to it. And all of the flights before had been with an instructor and even one of his flying buddies or somebody who was like, you know, in. In this realm with him said, hey, this is different from your Cessna. This is like a different plane that you really need to, like, understand and, you know, be up to speed with in order to fly it safely. But he doesn't take it seriously, as Carolyn has said. And he, you know, he. He insists on flying by himself. And also he doesn't take the, like, weather briefing. So basically, when you're about to fly. You should get the most up to date weather briefing, obviously. And he declines to do that. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't have time, doesn't want to. And the conditions are hazy and there's cloud cover above Martha's Vineyard, which is like the current weather conditions as he takes off and under visual flight rules, it's barely acceptable for him to take off. So anyways, he takes off nonetheless.

Kagan (121:53)

And I think that like this is where, this is where it becomes interesting where it's of kind, clearly, honestly, his fault, like he was just one of those dudes who thought that he was invincible and on some level just was not careful enough. Was not careful enough. And this is what went wrong.

Deb (122:13)

Right, right, absolutely. And, and what's really fascinating and terrifying about what happened with the crash is that it actually was a much more mental error than it was, you know, just crazy conditions. So he takes off. And one thing that, you know, pilots have to do when it's dark outside and especially when they're near cities is they can, they can tell the horizon line from like city lights. Like those can even break through cloud cover. But at a certain point, like he cannot really tell like what's up or down. And he actually starts to undergo vertigo.

Kagan (122:49)

Right. So he's in like this thick cloud coverage and he just, like, he doesn't have his orientation of like the cloud coverage is so dense around him, he doesn't know what direction the plane is really going in in terms of if it's going up or down or if it's level. And I think he loses that orientation. And that is what. So he, like he.

Deb (123:09)

And what caused this? Yeah, and what caught just really quickly, what caused this is that he, he started to turn. And I guess what can happen is as you start to turn it, it induces this vertigo where your senses start to feel like you're going one way and you're. The dials on the airplane show another thing.

Kagan (123:27)

Well, also, apparently there were like, there were instruments that were not. Like he wasn't flying with, that he should have been flying with. I read about.

Chandler (123:35)

And.

Kagan (123:35)

But haven't you had like a strange, like. I swear I've been in my car, you know, stopped at a stoplight and I felt like it was moving strangely or like, just like I've had moments where I felt myself not have a total grip or bearings on what was going on. Like being in a plane and feeling like, are we moving or are we not moving? Like you definitely, like when you're on the Ground, I can understand how you would lose your grip.

Deb (124:01)

And honestly, this is one part of pilot training where you have to just. I was watching this video and the guy just says you have to trust your instruments more than you trust your own senses. Oh, interesting. And so I'll read this one. You know, insidious thing about vertigo from this pilot talking about the crash. And he says that, you know, this vertigo happens when a pilot searches outside for a visible horizon, can't find it, then moves his head. The sloshing fluid inside the middle ear balance mechanism creates a false illusion. Vertigo says to the pilot, hey, you're in a turn. The pilot feels the sensation in the seat of his pants. He corrects with the yoke to level the plane, but in fact, the plane was always flying level. And now it is in a banked turn. And the vertigo reassures the pilot. Okay, you stopped that turn. Well done. But the turn has not stopped. The plane is still turning. Your middle ear balance system is out of whack and spitting out false messages. The plane tips farther and enters a graveyard spiral, which is the pilot is upside down, spinning, disoriented and confusing. There's no accident, it's awful. And, and this means then that all of the passengers would have been feeling this spiral as well. And so it's just a horrific end.

Chandler (125:07)

Yeah.

Kagan (125:08)

I mean, can you imagine her final thoughts? She didn't even want to go to this wedding. She never wanted to get on. She didn't even like flying with him.

Deb (125:15)

Right.

Kagan (125:15)

This is why I think we have to trust our instincts. And I, I cannot even imagine the final, you know, their final terrifying moments as they plunged into the sea beside Martha's Vineyard.

Lauren (125:28)

Right.

Deb (125:28)

I mean, I, I don't want to get on my soapbox here, but, you know, there was a time in my life where I had a friend whose dad like, flew planes and mom would not let me. Like we were gonna fly to Vegas for her birthday and mom bought me a commercial air airline ticket because she would not let me get in a small plane. And you know, nothing happened. Everything was fine, thank God. But like, small planes are F U C K I N G Terrifying.

Guest (125:55)

Yeah. And I also think that.

Kagan (125:57)

And I was actually thinking about this as I was doing research for this episode and I just decided that my rule is I will fly in small planes, but with professional pilots where that's their full time career. I will not fly with hobbyist pilots. Like, that is my mind.

Deb (126:10)

I don't. Yeah, hobbyist pilots especially. It's just, it's terrifying. And also, you know, I know we have like, I have friends whose parents fly and whatever. And it's, it's totally that person's prerogative. It just scares me. And I mean, I, I'm in the Travis Barker plane crash. That was with a professional pilot. It's just I'm probably never gonna be rich enough anyways to like fly with like always private or ever part private.

Guest (126:36)

So.

Chandler (126:36)

Right.

Deb (126:37)

It's an easy thing for me to rule out, frankly.

Kagan (126:39)

Just to be like, I'm not. Yeah. 100 saying.

Lauren (126:42)

Yeah.

Deb (126:42)

So I actually will never. I'm not gonna become that rich just because I'm just too afraid of flying private. Sorry.

Kagan (126:48)

Anyway, just.

Lauren (126:49)

Anyway.

Kagan (126:51)

So incredibly sad, but very. Because like all these details about where they were at in their marriage, all of this stuff I really didn't know. And so I thought it was very intriguing. Intriguing to read about, you know, what their lives are really like, what their marriage was really like. And honestly, I don't think they would have stayed together. I think they were on a collision course with divorce really.

Deb (127:12)

I think ultimately marriages where you, you know, are becoming a part of such a crazy established family that has so much writing on you expectation wise, like, I just think those marriages are kind of doomed.

Kagan (127:26)

I definitely think though, I would have thrived as a Kennedy. Like, I think if they could have gotten past my murky history and just

Deb (127:33)

really just all of your. The content, whether you're airing or dirty laundry. Yep.

Kagan (127:38)

My pure embarrassment.

Guest (127:39)

Right.

Kagan (127:40)

If they could have gotten past the fact that I have a Patreon account, I really would have thrived as a Kennedy. I would have loved going to the events.

Guest (127:47)

I would have looked up the current

Kagan (127:48)

events before meeting Ethel.

Deb (127:49)

I definitely would have killed it. Weapons fan.

Kagan (127:53)

Yeah, exactly.

Deb (127:53)

That's great. That's great. I'm sure you would have. Yeah. Anyway, I think you would have been a stunning Kennedy. And honestly, I wish he would have become one just so that I could have some of the perks. Besides the flying.

Kagan (128:03)

I mean, my engagement photos were fully cosplaying as the Kennedys.

Deb (128:07)

Like, aren't we all? Aren't we all?

Chandler (128:10)

Yes, we are. We.

Kagan (128:11)

We all certainly are. Anyway, so I really thank you, Chandler. You did an amazing job recapping from their engagement on. I truly felt like this was so fun. Such a interesting and kind of different pop apologist episode from unusual. Just bantering. So you guys, if you like the episode, please leave us a five star review. Let us know that you want more of this kind of narrative content.

Chandler (128:37)

These deep dives.

Deb (128:38)

Thank you. Love you guys. Thank you everyone.

Guest (128:41)

Love you.

Deb (128:41)

Bye.

Kagan (128:42)

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