250: WTF happened to your favorite brands incl. Outdoor Voices, Glossier, Abercrombie & Fitch, and more

Summary

Pop Apologists Episode 250: WTF Happened to Your Favorite Brands

Released on November 20, 2024

Hosts: Courtney and Chandler
Guest: Sammy Cohen, MBA from Berkeley and Rising Star in Financial & Business Content Creation

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Introduction

In episode 250 of Pop Apologists, hosts Courtney and Chandler delve deep into the intriguing downfalls of several beloved consumer brands, including Outdoor Voices, Glossier, and Abercrombie & Fitch. To provide expert insights, they welcome Sammy Cohen, a burgeoning voice in the intersection of Wall Street and pop culture, renowned for her ability to demystify complex financial concepts and analyze the trajectories of today's most influential brands.

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Outdoor Voices: From Athleisure Darling to Decline

Origins and Rise:
Sammy Cohen begins by tracing the origins of Outdoor Voices (OV), highlighting CEO Ty Haney's vision to fill a "white gap" in the athleisure market with technical, functional apparel tailored for women. "When she came out with the products, it was pretty much like right away a massive hit" ([04:51] Sammy Cohen).

Venture Capital Era:
The surge of direct-to-consumer (DTC) brands like OV was fueled by a period known as the Zero Interest Rate Policy (ZIRP), where venture capital flowed freely into unprofitable yet rapidly growing companies. "They were growing, eventually they'll figure it out" ([06:52] Sammy Cohen).

Signs of Trouble:
As OV scaled, expenditures on non-essential items—such as expensive flowers for stores and premium sparkling water—raised concerns about financial sustainability. An exposé in the New York Times revealed "they were spending tens of thousands of dollars every month on flowers that were in the stores" ([06:52] Sammy Cohen).

Leadership Struggles and Decline:
Internal conflicts emerged when Mickey Drexler, former CEO of Gap and J. Crew, was brought in as chairman to stabilize the company. Clashes between Drexler and Haney led to Haney's ousting during her maternity leave. "With consumer companies, it's extremely difficult to win them back once you lose a customer" ([13:35] Sammy Cohen).

Current Status:
By 2024, Outdoor Voices had shuttered all retail locations and was acquired by a private equity group, similar to the acquisition of Reese Witherspoon's Draper James. Sammy remains pessimistic about OV's resurgence: "In my opinion, no." ([13:35] Sammy Cohen).

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Glossier: Navigating the DTC Shift

Founding and Success:
Glossier, founded by Emily Weiss, capitalized on the DTC model, creating a community-centric skincare and makeup brand. Its direct sales approach resonated well in the early 2010s, making it a favorite among millennials and Gen Z consumers.

Challenges with DTC Model:
As marketing costs soared and the landscape shifted towards omnichannel retailing, Glossier faced diminishing returns from its DTC strategy. "The unit economics really became out of whack" ([32:01] Sammy Cohen).

Strategic Pivot:
To adapt, Glossier began partnering with established retailers like Sephora, enhancing its accessibility and leveraging Sephora's robust shipping capabilities to compete with giants like Amazon.

Brand Extensions and Missteps:
Glossier's foray into Glossier Play in 2019, a line diverging from its minimalist aesthetic into more vibrant, glitter-infused products, was met with consumer confusion and logistical issues. "The companies did close it down basically within the year" ([37:04] Sammy Cohen).

Current Trajectory:
With a valuation of approximately $1.8 billion, Glossier is exploring acquisition opportunities, positioning itself for potential acquisition by major industry players rather than pursuing an IPO. "Glossier is not going anywhere. I think... they'll probably be acquired." ([40:25] Sammy Cohen).

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Abercrombie & Fitch: Reinventing the Mall Staple

Historical Popularity:
Abercrombie & Fitch (A&F) was once synonymous with early 2000s mall culture, characterized by its provocative marketing and strong brand identity.

Decline and Rebranding Efforts:
As consumer preferences shifted towards inclusivity and subtlety, A&F's overt branding became outdated. Under the leadership of Fran Horowitz, A&F undertook a comprehensive rebranding, removing conspicuous logos and enhancing product quality. "They completely just flipped the script on what they were providing." ([53:24] Sammy Cohen).

Successful Adaptation:
A&F's strategic pivot focused on understanding and meeting the evolving desires of millennials and Gen Z consumers. Initiatives like the wedding shop—offering affordable yet stylish outfits for various wedding events—helped rejuvenate the brand. "They really listened to the customer." ([55:17] Sammy Cohen).

Current Status:
Today, Abercrombie & Fitch stands as a revitalized brand with elevated products and a keen alignment with customer needs. Sales strategies, including attractive discount offerings, have made it a favored choice among consumers seeking quality and affordability. "They know that their customers are some degree of a millennial or a later Gen Z." ([53:24] Sammy Cohen).

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Victoria's Secret: A Cautionary Tale

Past and Present:
Victoria's Secret once dominated the lingerie market with its exclusive fashion shows and narrow beauty standards. However, facing fierce competition from brands like Savage X Fenty and changing consumer values, VES struggled to maintain its relevance.

Leadership Changes and Potential Turnaround:
With the appointment of Hilary Super, former leader of Savage X Fenty, Victoria's Secret aims to revitalize its image through inclusivity and modern marketing strategies. Early collaborations with influencers indicate a positive directional shift. "I actually am bullish on. I think that Victoria's Secret can change things around." ([60:17] Sammy Cohen).

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The Role of Venture Capital and Market Dynamics

Sammy Cohen emphasizes the significant role venture capital played in the rise and fall of these DTC brands. The influx of easy capital during the ZIRP era allowed brands to scale rapidly without achieving profitability. "It's the venture capitalists who gave them the money." ([25:19] Sammy Cohen). As capital became less accessible post-2020, the sustainability of such business models came into question, prompting many to reassess and pivot strategies or face decline.

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Key Takeaways and Industry Insights

1. Founder’s Influence:
   The centrality of a charismatic founder, as seen with Ty Haney in Outdoor Voices, can be both a strength and a vulnerability. Their departure often leads to a significant shift in brand identity and customer perception.

2. Community is Crucial:
   Building a loyal community, beyond just selling products, is essential. Outdoor Voices thrived initially due to its vibrant community activities, but struggled to maintain this after leadership changes.

3. Adaptability is Essential:
   Brands like Abercrombie & Fitch demonstrate the importance of evolving with consumer preferences, investing in quality, and strategic rebranding to stay relevant.

4. Marketing and Omnichannel Presence:
   The shift from DTC to omnichannel retailing highlights the need for brands to diversify their sales channels and optimize marketing expenditures to maintain profitability.

5. Venture Capital's Double-Edged Sword:
   While venture capital can accelerate growth, it can also pressure brands to prioritize rapid expansion over sustainable business practices, leading to long-term instability.

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Closing Thoughts

In this episode, Pop Apologists offers a comprehensive analysis of the meteoric rises and precipitous falls of several key consumer brands, underscoring the intricate interplay between leadership, market dynamics, and consumer behavior. With Sammy Cohen's expert insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the factors that drive brand success and those that precipitate decline, providing valuable lessons for both consumers and aspiring entrepreneurs.

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Notable Quotes:

• "At Amica, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking. It's human. Amica empathy is our best policy." ([00:01] Amica Insurance Representative) (Skipped in summary as per instructions)

• "I think collaborations are extremely important and can turn the company around if they're done right." ([12:54] Sammy Cohen)

• "If you're looking at brands, a community can often power a brand on its own." ([17:04] Sammy Cohen)

• "It's the venture capitalists who gave them the money. Because ultimately all of the ideas that they had, I think objectively were good ideas." ([25:19] Sammy Cohen)

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments have been omitted in accordance with the summary guidelines.

Transcript

[Amica Insurance Representative]

Every day, our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human.

[Sammy Cohen]

Thank you for calling Amica Insurance. Hey, I was just in an accident. Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

At Ameca, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking. It's human. Amica empathy is our best policy.

[Courtney]

You know that Chris was like, courtney, we think we have an opportunity here. Like, Chris, like, in the boardroom.

[Chandler]

Dare you bring Chris into this?

[Courtney]

Let me GLP1. Kendall's got 808 or whatever.

[Chandler]

Courtney probably didn't even know this was happening.

[Courtney]

No, Courtney literally didn't. So she, like, woke up and saw the Instagrams about it. Well, well, well. Welcome to Pop Apologist. Today we have a very special guest on the podcast, Sammy Cohen. She's a rising star in the world of financial and business content creation, bridging the gap between Wall street and pop culture. Everyone will know her from her deep dives, where she breaks down and demystifies complex financial concepts and uncovers what's really happening with today's biggest brands. We're so happy to have you on Pop Apologist. Thank you for being here.

[Sammy Cohen]

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

[Chandler]

No problem at all, Sami. I'm so excited you're here. I initially started following you, and I think I was served your Outdoor Voices reel, and I like to consider myself, you know, interested in the world of business. Okay. And no, I just find that your content is so interesting because you do break down business concepts and stories about brands that we're all obsessed with. And I was talking with Chandler about this last night when we were kind of discussing the episode. I feel like even though our show is normally about pop culture and celebrities, most of us are not only interested in, like, what's going on with Angelina and Brad's 10 year divorce, but we're also interested in, like, what the fuck happened to Outdoor Voices and why the brand is lame now. And, like, all these brands that we follow on social media that are constantly on our phones that we love to shop at, they really are very interesting to most people, I think, and we really care about them. And so I feel like it's such a natural thing to have you on, and I think a lot of our listeners will be really intrigued with a lot of these subjects. So thank you so much for joining.

[Sammy Cohen]

Awesome. Yes, I. I feel the same way. I think the reason why I am obsessed with brands and companies are that I Feel as though when someone buys a product from a company, when someone's holding an Erewhon tote bag, it's a way to signal to the world without physically having to say anything, like, what you stand for, what you like, what your vibe is even. And I think for me, like, I'm always obsessed with what the latest and greatest is. I think it also is really interesting to me to even do, like, a deeper dive behind, like, what people like, why they like it, and then, like, what the business fundamentals are. So that Outdoor Voices video that went super viral, that was just literally me obsessing one night after work of like, oh, my God, I haven't heard of Outdoor Voices in so long. And I was obsessed with it in like 2015, 2016. Like, where's Tai Haney? What happened to the company? And I like, scripted it that night. Cause I was literally googling and I put it up at like 8pm and then like the next morning I wake up and it is like, super viral. So it's very much a sign that people are just interested in hearing about these brands and companies, especially the ones that were really, really hot at a certain time and then they've kind of fallen off the map.

[Courtney]

Yes, absolutely. I mean, these brands that have a cult following that sort of like, take the girlies by storm. Yeah, everybody is fascinated by them. And I think Lauren and I need to come clean a little bit because. And just say, really, we're grateful that experts like you put out content about Outdoor Voices because Lauren and I tried to record an episode about why Outdoor Voices went up in flames. And I think we got maybe 10 minutes into it before we were just like, we're like, really out of our depth here. Like, we are not Scott Galloway. We do not know. We have a bachelor in communications and poetry and no MBA here to speak of. And anyway, we just like, abandoned ship on the whole episode.

[Chandler]

We were like, this sounds so dumb. We are not qualified.

[Courtney]

So, like the board of directors. Anyway, all that is to say, we're very happy to have an expert like yourself here to talk to us about these brands.

[Sammy Cohen]

That's what I'm here for, lady.

[Chandler]

And we should also say that Sammy has an MBA from Berkeley. So she does bring the credentials. She does bring the expertise to discuss all this. So, Sammy, what happened to Outdoor Voices?

[Sammy Cohen]

Ooh. Okay, well, I'll say a high level view first.

[Chandler]

Okay, okay.

[Sammy Cohen]

So high level view was that. I think Ty Haney, who was the CEO of Outdoor Voices, was really like this second wave of athleisure for women and first wave being like the Nikes of the world. Right. She saw that there was this white gap in the market to create products that were very technical because she wanted to have something that was both technical for working out, for doing things, actually, because that was their slogan.

[Courtney]

Literally.

[Sammy Cohen]

Literally. And she wanted to create it in a way that was actually more appealing to women. So when she came out with the products, it was pretty much like right away a massive hit. And like many direct to consumer companies at the time, in that 2014 to really like 2018, 2019 era, it was all direct to consumer. So you can really only buy it through the brand's website or through the stores that the brand would create. And I think when these brands became really big during that time, venture capital. So these firms who are going to be putting money into companies were putting money into companies that were completely unprofitable. And that means that they were generating revenue. So people were buying the product, but they weren't actually making a profit. So they were losing money every single year. And this was like a really unique era in the venture capital world for consumer companies because you also had the Allbirds of the world, the Casper, the Warby Parkers, which Warby Parker's obviously still around and doing pretty well. But you had all of these companies that were very hot and people just didn't care that they weren't making money. It was just like, they're growing, eventually they'll figure it out.

[Courtney]

Well, and I'll just say to, you know, as someone who was obsessed with outdoor voices, obsessed with going to the store, buying all of the things I didn't know that they weren't making money. Like, you know, the layperson was just like, these brands are hot. This is like taking over the world. I only want to wear these two tone leggings.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

You know, screw Lululemon and Nike. And so it's interesting that actually during that time you say that, you know, they really weren't profitable, actually.

[Sammy Cohen]

Ye. Yeah. And it's. It was really interesting. There was this expose that came out in the New York Times when things had already gone very awry with outdoor voices. And it actually talks about the things that they were spending money on. And I remember one of the examples from the article was like, they were spending tens of thousands of dollars every month on flowers that were in the stores. Right. Like, things that are very much not necessary to run the business. Like, really cool. And like, definitely fed the whole energy of like, this is like the coolest brand ever. But like, not necessary. And also, like, sparkling water. Like, it wasn't Topo Chico, but it was like a similar S brand. Or was it? Okay, okay, yes.

[Courtney]

It's funny that you say that, because I remember a distinct time that I went to the Outdoor Voices store in West Hollywood or on Melrose, so whatever. And I remember that they had, like, that Maison Le Marie, like, that number, a really expensive candle. A candle that probably cost $100. I remember there being Tapo Chico.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And I was just like, I need this candle in my life. I need all of these clothes. And I mean, the store experience was kind of amazing because of all the.

[Sammy Cohen]

Money they were spending on it, 100%. And I think that's where the brand itself was doing really well, because people were spending money on clothing. And I think this was just a really unique era. It's also called the ZIRP era, so zero interest rate policy. And essentially, because interest rates were so low, that meant that capital was flowing very freely. And venture capitalists were putting money into companies that they knew weren't making money, but they knew were growing very quickly, were bringing in revenue. So they had the potential to turn it around and get to a point where they could be profitable, but they weren't. And so I think this really unique time when Outdoor Voices was really hot started to change towards the end of the 2010s, around 2019, and definitely 2020, things had taken a turn. And so with Outdoor Voices, Ty, who was very much the figurehead for the company, like, I think anyone who was shopping at an Outdoor Voices location or even going to their E. Comm site, knew that Ty was behind the company. And even her Instagram was very much tied to the brand. And you really thought of Ty when you thought of Outdoor Voices. And she was at a point where she was going on maternity leave, and the company was starting to turn a little bit. The sales were starting to slow. And I think there were even rumblings within the company that the culture, and I know work culture is always this big, ambiguous thing, but the work culture was also starting to turn. I think when you look at Tai, she was the figurehead for the company, but from an actual business fundamental standpoint, people say that she wasn't really sure of what she was doing from an actual financial standpoint. And this is all just hearsay, right? This is what people have said, previous employees have said that it wasn't run the way that a company that was doing tens or hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue should be run. And so the board was brought in. And actually Mickey Drexler, who is the ex CEO of Gap and J. Crew, he is a retail industry legend for really being able to take these companies that are public retail companies and run them the correct way and get their financials in order. He was brought in as chairman. And the story goes, both Mickey and Ty had a lot of issues with each other, and they were both pretty open about that. So I think the drama behind the scenes is something that we'll never know fully how it played out. But Ty, at this point, Mickey's brought in. Tai, ends up going on maternity leave with her first child, and within a few months of her having the baby, she is ousted from the company.

[Courtney]

Okay, so very interesting. So she's ousted. She's asked to leave, basically, and steps away. So she's no longer like, a part of it at all, basically. After that.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yep, yep, she left. And I think that's where Outdoor Voices kind of came to a stalling point, because when you have a company that's so intimately tied to the founder, which actually happens all of the time, especially in consumer companies, it's really difficult for the brand to have that organic nature that it had when the brand was first being born by the founder. Right. So I think Outdoor Voices, and really, after Ty left, she went on. She's still very much an entrepreneur. Went on to start different companies. I think at that point, Outdoor Voices, number one, has never been the same. And in the years since then. So really, all of this went down in 2020, and since then, we're now in 2024, the company shut down all of their retail locations and was actually bought by a private equity group. And that private equity group was the same company that bought the majority of Draper James, which is Reese Witherspoon's company that she started. And they kind of. It seems like they are buying these buzzy consumer companies that were maybe at one point doing well and now are not.

[Chandler]

Yeah, it's interesting how much of the magic of Outdoor Voices is gone. You know, it seems like when Ty left, she really contained whatever that secret sauce was. And her marketing, her vision, really was the genius behind the brand. And seeing the brand's equity essentially decline so dramatically is really evidence of how important if you are going to have a CEO like that, if you. That CEO is ousted, that they're replaced with someone with, you know, similar vision, with someone who can lead the brand in an inspiring way. That definitely did not happen. I was researching it a little bit yesterday, and they did this brand partnership with Disney that was just so fugly and embarrassing and just such a classic example of a way that I think a business will, or a brand will make a decision to do a partnership with a large company so they can get a really big deal, but in that deal they really devalue the brand equity because they compromise the cool factor totally.

[Sammy Cohen]

Collaborations can make or break a company. I think actually there are so many companies that over the past few years have had almost the opposite of Outdoor Voices, where they've had these incredible comebacks. And a lot of them, like Crocs, is an example of them. Crocs had their comeback because of some of the collaborations that they did. Of course, other things also helped to get them to be popular again or cool again. But I think collaborations are. Are extremely important and can turn the company around if they're done right.

[Chandler]

So is there hope that outdoor horses could be turned around then?

[Sammy Cohen]

Honestly, in my opinion, no.

[Chandler]

Oh, really?

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. With consumer companies, and this is like a little bit of a pessimistic take, but I think it's a reality check. Consumer companies are amazing on one hand because it's a tangible product that consumers can feel and take pictures of and share with friends on social media, which is great. And for the brands that are able to ride that wave of popularity and grow revenue very quickly and figure out their fundamentals and create profitable companies, it's great. However, the consumer is extremely fickle. Things are in one minute and out the next. Right? Like someone gets an ick over a brand and it's like, I don't want to touch that again. I'm going to sell it on Poshmark and just never see it again. I think Outdoor Voices, because of some of the things that we talked about already with Tai Haney's now non involvement in the company, I think they had already created such an impression with the customer. And once you lose a customer like that, it's incredibly difficult to win them back. Now it can happen, but I think just given where Outdoor Voices is today, it's usually not a good sign when a brand that was started by a founder and had a really great following is sold to private equity that doesn't really have the best understanding of how to really make the brand resonate with the customer. So I don't think that Outdoor Voices will really be resuscitated. I think really the golden days are.

[Chandler]

Behind, it seems like also when brands are sold to private equity, they tend to really just start valuing net revenue as much as possible and compromises on quality begin to happen with the actual products themselves?

[Courtney]

Well, I'll just say, as well as a consumer of outdoor voices and, you know, someone who used to love going to the store, I think that the magic of it for me at least, was actually less of the clothing and more of actually about being in the club where I have outdoor voices. I wear the doing things hat. I mean, I didn't actually love their leggings that much. Like, I didn't. The two toned wasn't, like, the most flattering on me, and I think there was also, like, a heathering to a lot of it that I also didn't love. Like, I actually prefer a more sleek, black look. But I wanted to be in the club. I wanted to own, like, the bags. Actually, I still own a few things, and all the things I own are the things that, like, say, doing things, you know, that are, like, very clearly branded versus the actual garment, you know, or the good. And I think once the magic of the brand was lost, which is, you know, it's been years now, no one wants to shop there. I don't think that they had a good enough product to carry them through this, like, tough time where Ty, you know, stepped down and the brand lost its magic, I guess.

[Sammy Cohen]

Totally. That's such a good point. And I think that's one thing that we didn't cover was the community element, which was huge. Yeah, yeah. They had all of these, like, recreational activities and walking groups and just like, every kind of outdoor exercise group activity that you can imagine, and that was a huge part of it. It's like, you wore the clothing, but more importantly, you were part of this larger community of women who were all interested in, like, having fun together and doing things. And I mentioned this in the video, but I believe that Ty Hanie truly engineered the original idea of the Hot girl walk, because that's what people were doing. They were, like, strutting their stuff around Austin and walking in groups of friends, and I really feel as though that was the original idea. And then it peaked, and then it kind of went dormant for a little bit, and then it, like, came back five years later, hotter than ever. Just, like, you know, with a little bit of a different spin.

[Courtney]

No, it's. It's so true. And I think I have a, like, a soft spot, I think, for Tai Haney, because I feel, like, sad for her that this brand that she built that was so amazing, like, you know, has just totally gone up in flames. And I think that, like, I remember looking at their idea of exercise and the way that they talked about it as more positive and joyful versus, like grueling and terrible. I feel like it was literally like Tracey Anderson and then there was like Ty Haney and I was like, I.

[Sammy Cohen]

Think I want the Ty Haney.

[Courtney]

Like, I'm gonna wear like a hat and I don't think I'm gonna get very sweaty, like walking around Austin. Like, I want that approach to exercise, not like the grueling arm circles, you know? Yeah. I just think that it was like, it was really powerful what she started. And it's sad that. And I think she's still trying to do that with like doggy, her new venture. But yeah, it's a bummer that after Voices couldn't continue because it, you know, it was amazing when it was great.

[Sammy Cohen]

The takeaway though, for me, if you're looking at brands, is that the community can oftentimes power a brand on its own. Because you're right, I think the two toned leggings, I think that's what they're most known for, were like everywhere for a minute. And then after they kind of became a little bit less hot. The thing that was driving the brand was the community around it. And I think for a consumer company, which is obviously consumer companies run for everything from apparel to technology to really anything that a consumer touches and uses, I think that the community element is really necessary at this day and age. On top of, of course, having like a really active social media presence, all of that, like, you really need that for consumer companies.

[Courtney]

Agreed.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

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[Chandler]

The other thing I think is interesting about Outdoor Voices and about Ty Hany is I feel like that time you're talking about, which was what, the zero interest.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

All the money was easy. Right. It seems like a lot of these companies got into the same place where they way overspent and there was almost like a domino effect or there was just like a bunch of companies that felt at the same time, a lot of them with female founders. Like we had Aubrey Gelman's the Wing, that was another company that seemed to overspend and then Glossier had a little bit of issues during that time. And it seemed like there was just all this bad PR about female led Brands. And one of the interesting things I think that was also going on was a lot of other companies that were male led were doing the exact same thing and there just wasn't the oversight in governance. But it didn't get the same New York Times cut article about the death of the female founder.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, I've thought a lot about this because I've done so many focused videos on companies during that time period. Because it really was this bubble of when all of these consumer companies were raising so much money, growing really quickly, and then they hit this pinnacle and then they all kind of fell off the map. Right. And might fall off the map. A lot of them just declared bankruptcy or got acquired by another company. But I do think that there was additional perhaps focus on this girl boss era founder. And I think the reason why there was so much fanfare around the Emily Weiss's of the world is because we really hadn't seen anyone like that prior to them. Of course, there were different versions in different industries, but this is the first time where you had this influx of women who were following what was trendy and were creating products that customers wanted. And I really think that because they grew so quickly and went from 0 to 100 within the span of a few years, at least most of them did when the market started to turn. There's this collective public fascination with the rise and fall. Right. And I think people love, I mean it's, it's human nature. Right. We want to cheer you on when things are going well, but when they're not going well, we want to tear you down. And so there was a very specific coverage in the media and there was a lot of people who were very quick to just attack these women. And to be fair, like, sure, there a lot of these companies were not doing extremely well, but I do think that there was a more focused attack on the women versus the men.

[Courtney]

Absolutely. I mean, I think too, like in Tai Haney's case, she's kind of a celebrity and I think that she had this cult following of her, like even just like influencing like her social media presence. And so I think that to then see her at the company that she's built fall, like there's this salacious. What's the drama? What was happening behind the scenes? And then you hear like whisperings of the culture or like it was, I remember hearing that, you know, it was like maybe a little catty stuff like that. That feels very like gendered versus, like, you think about like the fall of Wework. Or something that just like, I don't know, it just feels different. I think it's more salacious for people to talk about, like a female led work culture.

[Chandler]

I guess I feel like the language around it feels a little bit around, like the Ty Hanny fall and other companies that are female led, it feels a little bit more misogynistic versus, like, the Adam Newman case. But I also think there's this interesting thing where, like, as a girl, when I was shopping at outdoor voices at 26 or whatever it was, I looked at Taihani and I was like, I identified with her. Right. I felt like I could have been her. And so there was this, like, excitement for her growth. But then I also think when we all collectively saw these female founders or some of them have a bit of a downturn, there's kind of almost this satisfaction where it's like, and it's not a good part of human nature, but it's like, okay, now I feel less insecure because it didn't work out. So I guess now, you know, I feel less bad about not having started a huge mega company.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah. I think there's unfortunately a part of human nature that is like that. I think for a lot of these female founders who had these massive moments during that time period and you look at where their careers are now, I think number one, there's something entrepreneurial about each of them. And really, I think almost all of them are back doing something in the startup space, and it's usually in a different category than where they were before. And Tahini, as example, she's doing Joggy, which is the coffee concentrate esque company. Yeah.

[Courtney]

Gummy of some sort.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah, yeah. And then there's also Tyb, Try your best, which is a platform that connects brands with their consumers or customers. And so clearly she's like, hey, I've had it with the athleisure space. I'm done. I'm not going to touch that. And really interesting that she went beverage and then more of like a tech platform solution. And I think, like, Audrey Yellman, same thing. She's opening like a small inn in upstate New York. And, you know, they're really going different ways. She also has like a store called Six Bells. So I think there's clearly something entrepreneurial. I think I don't want to say it was right place, wrong time, because I do think fundamentally these companies were really interesting. I think they were just kind of riding the wave at the time. And we also can't just blame these founders because ultimately the venture capitalists funded all of them. These women would not. Or women or men. These people who are running these consumer companies at the time would not have been able to grow the companies to the stage that they got to without capital from venture capitalists. And it was relatively easy for them to raise money, they said, literally, for just taking the Outdoor Voices example, Ty was like, hey, I went to Parsons. I have this idea for this company to create athleisure clothing for women in a way that's different. And VCs were like, here you go, here's millions of dollars, right? And I believe they raised something like 50, 60 million dollars. Like today. There is no way that would happen. It was just so much easier for them to raise capital. And everyone is delusional. Like, I'm sorry, everyone was like, you know what, that's a cute idea. Like, let me throw money at it.

[Courtney]

I mean, I know, it's so true. And who's to say, like, I wouldn't spend a lot of money on fresh flowers and candles? And like, I remember reading a lot about the wing and it's like downfall and how they were just like buying up these pricey real estate places that were gonna be co working spaces and spending a ton of money to like renovate them and make them like super cute and trendy. And it just didn't end up being profitable actually at all. And I think with the wing as well, it was like it coincided with COVID and nobody was gonna go into a co working space, you know, 2020. And so, yeah, I just like, if you're handed all that cash, why wouldn't you try to make it a lovely store experience? You know, like, it's just. I get it.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah. So I think for all of the villainization, if that's even a word that people have done for the founders during that time period, I still think they are not to blame. It's the venture capitalists who gave them the money. Because ultimately all of the ideas that they had, I think objectively were good ideas. Like, we all shopped there, we all use the product or the services because they were good products. I don't think anyone is is trying to poke holes in that hypothesis of like, oh, if these were put out at a different time, we wouldn't have bought them. No, I think we still would have. Right? They were good companies. They just hadn't really figured out how to make themselves profitable and with how much money they raised. Because in very, very basics in venture capital, right, a company says, I have an idea for doing X, I'D like to raise money to fund that idea. And then there's a valuation that's put on. So I raise $10 million, let's say my company's valued at 100 million. I'm just throwing these numbers out. You have to be able to scale and continue to grow the revenue of your company to grow into that valuation. And then as you continue to fund the company, if you are not profitable, if you cannot take the revenue from your company and use it to fund the business and continue to grow, you're going to need to raise money again. And venture capitalists, they usually have a time Horizon anywhere from five, seven, maybe 10 years if it's an extremely long hold, or they want to get their money out. And the only way that they're going to be able to get their money out is if the company that they put the money into gets acquired by another company or they go public. Like there needs to be some kind of event where they get their capital back, right? And so you look at the model for these companies and even just let's take Outdoor Voices. The only way the Outdoor Voices would have been a good investment for the venture capitalists that put money in is if they went public, maybe could have happened or if they got acquired. But as a company grows, right. The likelihood or the type of company that's going to be able to buy them shrinks. Because if you're growing a massive company, there are only so many billion dollar clothing companies that are willing to buy you, right? And so it's just this really interesting catch all, which is also why since, you know, the 20, 20 years and beyond, you've seen consumer companies struggle to raise these massive amounts of funding, which is actually a great thing, because that means that if you are launching a consumer company, you need to bootstrap a lot more. Which means that you need to actually not raise as much money and take your own capital that you're generating from revenue to be able to grow the business. Which is how you actually grow a business that has its fundamentals, right. And can scale. Like you look at all the companies that we're talking about, they're either no longer here today or they're here technically, but not really. Like their sales are very, very low. So I think it was a really interesting bubble and learning experience for everyone, especially for people like us who are fascinated by what happened. And we're like, number one, like, that's just a crazy fricking story. But number two, like, how do we make sure that doesn't happen again? Cause it's. It sucks for everyone who's involved, right? Because it's like everyone who worked there, okay, they don't really have jobs anymore. The consumers are now, like, buying a product that isn't really in circulation anymore, like customer service. They can't really do much with the products. Or it's just like you spent so much time in this community, like, where did the outdoor voices community go, Right? Like, they disseminated and maybe some of them went to Alo, they went to Lulu or, you know, the other companies. But it's just. It's sad to see it happen.

[Courtney]

Yeah, that's such a helpful part of this to expand on, like the venture capital capital side of things. Because it really isn't their fault necessarily when they were like inflated with all this cash that was then spent on things that maybe didn't, you know, help turn profit. This is just what happened.

[Chandler]

Well, also, I remember, so I worked at Stance, which is a sock company primarily. They make other products. It was a trendy brand and it kind of was part of this. It raised a lot of money really quickly and all of this. And it got caught up in a lot of euphoria. But I remember at the time when I was working there, you know, someone in C suite told me that the job of the CEO was to have vision and raise money. Like, that's their job, period, End of story. And Ty Haney, like, according to that, did her job excellently. So really, it does come down to the actual governance of the company to make sure that the merchandising and the investment in retail that all of it is actually going to pencil out.

[Courtney]

Lauren, let's rewind the tapes to Tuesday, November 5th. Tensions are running high. Let's just say that night was a nail biter for a lot of people, people on all sides. And I decided that around 9pm that night, east coast time. I wasn't interested in looking at any more news sites. I was just interested in taking an early bird and just retreating into the comfort of my mind off of my phone and off of the tv. And let me just tell you, it was very helpful.

[Chandler]

Early bird CBD gummies, they take the edge off your brain. It's the only way to describe it for me when I wake up in the middle of the night for a little anxiety, I take half an early bird and my brain, it just kind of melts away and I can go right back to sleep and slumber through the rest of the night.

[Courtney]

Everyone. It works on thoughts like, is the future of democracy over and also thoughts like, will boar's head turkey ever come back into our life? You know, not as a listeria threat.

[Chandler]

A big one for you. You love sliced meat.

[Courtney]

Two huge problems I'm currently facing. Anyway, early bird's there for it all. No, I, I really can't overstate how incredible it is.

[Chandler]

Everyone go to earlybirdcbd.com use code pop20 for 20% off. This is a very big discount. Earlybirdcbd.com, use code pop20 at checkout. We should move on to a different company, which is Glossier, because Glossier's had kind of like a little bit of a roller coaster, but it's had a little bit of a different outcome.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

So I would love for you to share, like what happened at Glossier and kind of where it is now.

[Sammy Cohen]

Sure. So I'd say Glossier obviously founded by Emily Weiss, who is very much one of these girl boss era women who, who started the company with this vision for creating this community based. So we're sensing a theme here, community based skincare and makeup company. And it has done extremely well. I think when you look at the rollercoaster esque journey of Glossier, I think obviously they started direct to consumer, which was the hot thing at the time. And that's what really any company that was starting around then, especially when you're raising a ton of capital, you say the word direct to consumer and everyone's eyes would light up. It's just so funny how delusional we were thinking, like, oh my God, it's a consumer company that we're just going to buy straight from the company. Like, doesn't matter. Any of these other retailers, like Sephora, who cares? Ulta, like, what is that? Right? And we were obsessed. Like, that's why I'm so fascinated with these. It's just funny. We can laugh now and just, it's one big joke. But Glossier was huge in the direct to consumer era. And then it hit this more difficult time as direct to consumer just stopped being as big as it was in the early 2000 and tens. And I think also one really key element too that is a huge theme with direct to consumer is the cost of marketing. Spend on places like Facebook Online kind of shot through the roof during like the late 2010s, like 2018, 2019. Prices started increasing. And so you had all of these direct to consumer brands that were relying on their own channels because they were doing the marketing spend directly to their site. The unit economics really became out of whack. Where Direct to consumer wasn't making as much money as it was. And I think there was just this big reckoning where people were starting to go more towards the Sephora's the omnichannel experience, where they don't want to have to go to your website in order to buy a product. And I think also one thing that was just more macro in the industry and the way that consumers shop online is the Amazonification of shipping. Right. We are so used to getting something in two days or less if you're a prime shopper. And it's just, I think the ramifications of just even having these, these mega retailers like Amazon being able to ship something to you so quickly, if you're shopping something direct to consumer, chances are they don't have the funds to compete or very few do to get you something in two days or less. So then you're just more incentivized to do something at a bigger retailer that may have more benefits in terms of shipping times. And so that was also something, I think that was definitely at play and now is still at play because every company is competing against the Amazons of the world. But I think with Glossier, I think towards 2020 is when they started to have this pivot and they decided that they were going to go into Sephora a few years later. And I think then we're now in this time, in 2024, where any company that was direct to consumer in the 2010s is no longer direct to consumer. Especially if you're a makeup company like Glossier, it is fundamental that you are at Sephora or Ulta. Usually these companies will have like a partnership with one of them. And I think with Glossier they're at roughly now today a $1.8 billion valuation. So going back to venture capital, they had raised a ton of venture capital funding. And they're at this time where when the venture capital is put the money in back in mid-2010s around 2015, 2016, they're looking at their time horizon and it's time for them to get their money back. Like they are ready to get the money and put it into other investments. So Glossier is at this really unique turning point where they've been around for 10 plus years and they kind of need some event to happen, whether that's an ipo, whether that's them being acquired. But for them to get acquired, it needs to be by one of the big fish. It's an Estee Lauder esque company. Right. And so no doubt They've already had those conversations, and it's a question of if there are still some holdout reasons why they haven't moved ahead with it. But Glossier has definitely been exploring ways to continue to grow the brand. At this point, everyone knows Glossier. They have these amazing stores, which I think is also key to their brand. Their stores, in my opinion, are the best retail experience for anything in the makeup or skincare area. You walk into the one in WeHo in West Hollywood, and it is like, you just want to hang out there. You just want to, like, get a coffee from across the street, and you want to just, like, sit with your friends inside of the Glossier store.

[Courtney]

No, it's gorgeous. It's. It's funny. Like, I remember going to the Outdoor Voices in on Melrose, and then the Glossier at the time was literally like, you know, a block away, basically. And you had these gorgeous store experiences where you were like, it was just, like, a great vibe. And I think at the store, I don't know if they still have it, but they had, like, this, like, room in the back where you, like, take the picture and you're in, like, this canyon type thing. And so, yeah, I think this store experience from Glossier was huge. Like, I also remember coming to New York and being like, well, I gotta go to the Glossier store. And I. I didn't even necessarily love their makeup. I didn't love the makeup experience. I didn't think that it was particularly, like, it didn't work great on me, and I didn't feel like it was honestly very luxurious feeling. I mean, they were. It was cheap. But I loved the look of it. I loved the packaging. I loved seeing it in my, like, makeup thing, and that was enough to make me buy it.

[Sammy Cohen]

And Glossier, one thing that's I find really interesting is to talk about these brands. Obviously, Glossier has had this crazy story, but to talk specifically about some of the fumbles they had. So in 2019, Glossier comes out with a sub brand line called Glossier Play.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Sammy Cohen]

And it was really something that people were excited about. It was almost the antithesis to what people thought of as Glossier with, like, the girl next door, like, barely their makeup. It was literally the opposite, with lots of sparkles, bright colors, like what you're gonna wear when you go out, like, on a Friday night in New York type of thing. And it was a really interesting move. And this is where I would just do anything to have a seat at the table to kind of hear the rationale and Reason for that launch because it just was so different from what the consumers knew and loved about glossier. And they had all of this data around what their consumers loved about the brand, why they shopped the brand, and they had something that was going really, really well, and then they take this hard left turn into a same product category, but a very different style. And it didn't do well right away. Like, customers were really confused about the packaging. It came in these, like, literally bright color foil, individually wrapped things. All of the makeup looked like tampons. I'm sorry. It was like.

[Courtney]

Yes. I remember the eyeshadow. Like. Yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

It was very questionable. And you're like, Emily, what happened? Like, you're so good at this. And something clearly went awry.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

And there were issues with the glitter in some of the eyeshadows. I believe it was being non biodegradable. And the glossier customer really liked the sustainability elements to. To make up. So I think there were just a few misses there. The company ended up shutting it down basically within the year. So also, I think there were some minor fumbles along the way. We don't know how much that costed the company. And clearly the company was still doing very well and was able to expand their core line of glossier. But it's actually really timely, this whole glossier conversation, because they just came out with their two extensions of you, which is their Knock it Out of the park fragrance. And I think what's really interesting about glossier, and I'm excited to see where it goes, is I think they. They really created these perfume extensions because in my opinion, they are trying to have a layup of getting a few massive products out there, and it's trying to make them more attractive for sale.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

Because they really need to establish themselves in one other category. They're obviously already a huge company, but we have now this new line extension, and there are so many larger companies in the makeup and fragrance space that would find that super attractive.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

So I think glossier is not going anywhere. I think. I think if anything, within the next two years, they'll probably be acquired. I don't think they would go public. And then they'll be owned by one of the Estee Lauders of the world. Yeah.

[Chandler]

One of the things that is also, I think, important to note is that with glossier, they can make a few mistakes because the margins on cosmetics are so much better compared to an outdoor voices, where the margins on leggings are a lot thinner. So I think that that's also just like they have that latitude where they can kind of play around and innovate and maybe fail a little bit.

[Sammy Cohen]

Totally.

[Chandler]

Speaking of brands, though, not, you know, making some fumbles, I want to get into Lemmy. Okay.

[Sammy Cohen]

This is loaded.

[Chandler]

Okay, so this is a perfect pub apologist business discussion, getting into tea because, you know, Kourtney Kardashian started Lemme, which is basically a line of supplement vitamins and it has all sorts of iterations and one of them is a GLP one. Gummy. Is it like, I'm so confused by this.

[Courtney]

It's crazy because the name says GLP1, which to me is Ozempic.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

That is the one in the same. Those are synonymous. Or it's. It is a semaglutide compound, whatever. So please tell us, is it real?

[Sammy Cohen]

It is absolutely not real. So this is my issue, and I am shocked that anyone who is advising Kourtney Kardashian, like, she has the best of the best legal team for, I mean, the entire Kardashian family does how and why she did something like this. So first I'll talk about the product and then I'll talk about questions I have with this launch. To begin with, with, the product is called GLP1 daily, which to any person objectively makes you think it's either a synthetic GLP1 or a GLP1 agonist, which is the world of the wegovies and ozempics. So to name something GLP1 Daily is just wrong. It's wrong and it's misleading and it is suggesting to a customer that there is a product or there is something within the product that is not there. So I think there's just a lot of questions from consumers about this. And just to be completely fair, right on the Lemme website, it does say that this is not a synthetic GLP one. Like, obviously they have the disclaimer there. It is a plant capsule, like plant extracts in a capsule that have these individual ingredients that are supposed to help with weight loss.

[Courtney]

Classifying it or naming it GLP1 makes you think that it is GLP1.

[Sammy Cohen]

Absolutely.

[Courtney]

It is not like, it's not like, Lemme weight loss.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yes.

[Courtney]

You know, because it's like.

[Chandler]

Well, saying that it's a pink cashmere makes you think it's pink cashmere. Like, it's like.

[Sammy Cohen]

Because it says that's what it is. Yeah, yeah. No, it is terrible what's going on there. I think my biggest concern with it, outside of it just being named the wrong name, is the fact that there are genuine People and you can go onto the Lemmy Instagram because their announcement Instagram with a picture of the product is still on their Instagram. You have people who are asking legitimate questions as if they want to start taking it to replace their current prescription of Wegovy or Ozempic. I mean, Ozempic's the one for diabetes. So I really hope whoever's legitimately taking this for diabetes is not like about to jump on the Courtney Kardashian. Exactly.

[Courtney]

I can't really do a shot now. You can just like eat a gummy and then.

[Sammy Cohen]

And then. So the New York Times did an expose on this because obviously this is just ripe for someone who has credentials in anything medicine to say. Absolutely not. And they say a few things, one of which is the studies that are on the Lemme website and they do point to a few actually look at the individual ingredients that are part of this like plant extract capsule. And it doesn't actually look at the entire capsule, it just looks at the individual ingredients. And the subject size is very small. And in the New York Times piece, there's a Harvard medicine professional, I think he may have just been some kind of doctor himself, says, you know what, this is not credible. The studies here should not be taken seriously. And so I think, and you'll even see people on the Instagram post are asking, like, where are the studies? The brand hasn't responded. Right. So I think number one. Well, number seven, all of those things are just really scary.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

And I think when you think of the Kardashian brand, I think Lemme, when it's something as innocuous as Melatonin. Right. Like Melatonin, I don't really. As long as you're gonna deliver me melatonin, I don't really care if it's like clinical grade Melatonin. And. But I'm not a doctor, by the way. This is a little late for me to say this, but I'm not a doctor, nor do I ever pretend to be one. I've just like, I'm obsessed with whatever this dumpster fire of a situation is. So I read about it. I feel as though Lemme is already like a little bit of a stretch, but because it's, it's very like easy to come out with vitamins, you know, no one's really gonna think, oh, the Kardashian shouldn't come out with vitamins, that's fine. But for them to come out with something that is posing. Cause that's what it is, posing as a efficacious medicinal grade GLP1 that's in a similar group as Wegovia or Ozempic. That's wrong, and that's just leading your customers and you're potentially not putting lives at danger, but maybe one degree below that, because people are legitimately asking if they can get off their prescription and asking like, oh, is this going to help me the same way that my other medications help me? And it's also. It's not cheap. It's $72 a month, and it's delivered to you monthly for something that is not truly going to work, because I don't believe it's gonna work. $72 to mislead people is just. It's embarrassing.

[Courtney]

No, it's very icky. And I think it's a really, like, key distinction that you're making, that there's a difference between vitamins, gummy vitamins and gummy medication.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Like prescription medication. And, like, for them to be trying to, you know, now operate in that space is. Yeah, it's bad news.

[Chandler]

Is it Novo Nordisk that came up with Ozempic, the big pharma conglomerate? I don't know. Business. I just think it's hilarious that someone could believe that Novo Nordisk just didn't have the innovation dollars to come up with Ozempic in gummy form. But Courtney Card Kardashian did.

[Courtney]

Let me. GLP1.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah. Yeah. And people say the supplement version of any product that tries to simulate an actual GLP one just doesn't work. So I also think of the ramifications of this on the Kourtney Kardashian brand.

[Chandler]

Oh.

[Sammy Cohen]

Which is a whole other deep dive. But to me, I see something like this, and I'm like, you've now turned yourself from being a Kardashian. And no matter what you think of Kardashian. Right. I think, like, across the board, they've done incredible things in business. And now you've turned yourself into, like, a Sugar Bear person who's, like, talking about a product that really. You're just trying to have a money grab here.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Chandler]

Well, also, I will say Kourtney Kardashian, you know, she's kind of the girl in the family who's the most. Like, we're good. We got enough. Like, there's a scene in the Kardashians, where she's like, we have everything that we could ever want more than it. Like, it's an embarrassment. Like, how much we have. Essentially, the math is a thing.

[Courtney]

You guys. You know that Chris was like, me we think we have an opportunity here. Like Chris, like, in the boardroom.

[Chandler]

Dare you bring Chris into this?

[Courtney]

Let me GLP1. Kendall's got 808 or whatever.

[Chandler]

Courtney probably didn't even know this was happening.

[Courtney]

No, Courtney literally didn't. She, like, woke up and saw the Instagrams about it. We know that the Kardashians will do anything for a check, but yeah, this is love.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah. It's almost a reminder of that fact. Because you also look at all of the businesses that they've started even before they were at the level that they are at today. And they had a credit card at one point, like, Kim was doing Shoe Dazzle, which was this, like, shoe online company. And the number of businesses that they have just churned out, some of them have nothing to really do with what they're famous for today. I think it just reminds you of their roots.

[Chandler]

Yeah. One thing that I was reading about when it comes to glossier, actually tying it back to that is one of the reasons that glossier's, like, fresh faced look was so interesting to people was because it came out at the same time the Kardashians were teaching us all the contour. So anyway, it was like this really interesting foil for me. It just made me insecure that I wasn't pretty enough without makeup, because I feel like that was like the messaging by the brand was like, wear no makeup and look perfect.

[Courtney]

I mean, it's funny that you say that. Cause I actually feel like you're like, glossier model material because of your, like, chic freckles and stuff. I truly feel like you are like, girl next door. I don't know. I just.

[Chandler]

Same way.

[Courtney]

I just. Yeah, I feel like all of, like, the glossier models had, like, gorgeous freckles. And then it was just like, just.

[Sammy Cohen]

Apply a little bit of blush and.

[Courtney]

You'Re good to go. And then I was like, but what about my dark circles? But. No, I hear you, though. I've also felt like I'm like, why aren't I pretty enough to just wear, like, coveralls all day? Like, this just, like, doesn't feel right.

[Chandler]

Okay. We would be remiss if we did not get into the mall brand of it all. Okay, so there's been mall brands with rises and falls. We have Abercrombie and Fitch, which, by the way, outperformed Nvidia. Last year. The stock of Abercrombie and Fitch far surpassed the stock of Nvidia.

[Courtney]

What's Nvidia?

[Chandler]

It's like the big A.I. company, right?

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah, yeah. I'm like, the chips for A.I.

[Chandler]

Oh.

[Courtney]

I'm like, what's this, like, skincare brand? I'm like a beta. Oh, look at you. Business girly thing.

[Chandler]

Well, I always hear the guys on all in talk about their, like Nvidia holdings or whatever.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah, yeah. Wow.

[Courtney]

That's crazy, though, about Abercrombie, which is shocking.

[Chandler]

And so.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

So Abercrombie, obviously, speaking of insecurities, you know, it was the models at the front of the store making you feel not ripped enough. The heavily perfume store, heavily branded products really fell out of fashion all of a sudden, randomly. I did find myself, though, a couple years ago, start to be purchasing just through the ether. Abercrombie again. I had a friend say, no, their swimmer is really good. I went on the website, I noticed that all these really cute basics, nothing had the Abercrombie and Fitch insignia guide us through this.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah, yeah. So you're right. I think Abercrombie from the early 2000s just smelled like a whole bunch of Axe body spray, except their branded version. It was dark, it was d. There was loud music. You were like part in a club, part like 14 years old. Like, very confusing. Right. And so I think Abercrombie, whenever you have a brand that has that distinctive of a ethos and vibe. Right. I think it. It kind of just brings you back to a certain time period. And so the early 2000s was that prime time period. And I think, like a lot of the companies we've talked about, there were really questionable people who were leading the company. There's a whole expose documentary about Abercrombie and everything that went wrong with the CEO at the time, Mike Jeffries. And I think what really happened with Abercrombie is the whole look of the logo plastered across the sweatshirt. I think there was this point where people wanted nothing to do with it. And in fact, it was so dated that people just full on left the brand.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

And same thing with Hollister, which is owned by Abercrombie. Both of those companies really struggled significantly, I'd say, post the 2010 era. And really what ended up happening is there was a huge leadership change. They brought in Fran Horowitz, which is a retail executive for many decades, and she had this whole plan. She's like, listen, we need to have a funeral for the Abercrombie of yesteryear, and we need to do a full top to bottom scrub of everything from the products to the store experience to the E Comm experience. When people shop online, everything needs to be Different. The only thing that stays the same is we are going to be providing clothing to people and we're even going to tweak that. Like the types of clothing we're providing and the way they did it is just a masterclass on how to revive a brand that has been dead. Right. I think from the basics of the quality of the clothing. Like they really went from what was like a really dingy, gross looking like Abercrombie and Fitch plastered logo to the point where if you're wearing an Abercrombie shirt, like you wouldn't know it's an Abercrombie shirt right off the bat, which is great. That's what people want, especially of a mall brand like that. Like we don't want to know the brand that's behind it. Right?

[Courtney]

Right.

[Sammy Cohen]

From the store experience. I think obviously they changed all of the most loud aspects aspects of that brand.

[Courtney]

They like open the blinds like I'm just judging France being like, we need to have a funeral and like open the blinds like the clearing out the air of like just yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

And they just, they started listening to the customer. I think from the 2010s period where they were really struggling, they were just serving products that people didn't want to buy. And they really went back to what our customers also like, where are our customers? What like age are we working with? And a lot of the people who were shopping in that early 2000s, right. Are very much like in the millennial wave. And they just knew with the types of products, especially their price point, they also needed to appeal to a Gen Z audience. So they completely just flipped the script on what they were providing. And then they also did an overhaul of their E Comm because obviously so many people are buying their clothes online now. And I think between those different elements, they completely resuscitated the. I think the Abercrombie of today actually comes across as much more elevated. And some of the stuff that they come out with, at least I have a few pieces that are almost like dupes for like reformation really. I think the quality has done a complete 180 and it's really great. But I'd say my favorite part of Abercrombie is they know that they're at this accessible price point and they're so tuned into what their customer wants. So they know that their customers are, are some degree of a millennial or a later gen Z. So they came out with this wedding shop which was such a brilliant move because we're now in this era of people Having not just one wedding dress, but, like, literally 10 different outfits for the rehearsal dinner, the brunch after the wedding, the bachelorette weekends. Right. Like, people are literally buying 10 outfits.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Sammy Cohen]

Wild. And they knew that because they had a price point that was more accessible. Most people can't afford to drop thousands, tens of thousands of dollars on their wedding outfits. Like, we're going to create a shop for brides and for even, like, wedding guests to have easier options for wedding outfits. And this was actually, like, a huge driver of their revenue this year, which is. Which is really awesome. Yeah. And I just think it's brilliant for them to have gone into that. And it really also shows how close they are to their customer to. And granted, it's not like they were the cutting edge of this. There were plenty of other companies that came out with wedding capsules or wedding shops, but Abercrombie doing this was really, like, a head nod to me of, like, okay, they know what they're doing and they're listening to the customer.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Also, one thing I'll say about Abercrombie is I think they do a really good job with their sales. Whatever magic that they do with, like, buy two, get 40% off. Like, it always feels like you can get a deal at Abercrombie versus, like, a reformation where it's like that stuff barely goes on sale, you know? And so I think that, like, it's a more attractive option because, yeah, their price point and their sales are great.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Yeah. I feel like it's exactly like, you look at the basics that they're selling, and you're like, that's what this should cost. Versus, like, sometimes at a reformation or a different brand, you're like, why is this tank top, $88, you know?

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah, Yeah. I. I'm proud to say that I. Stan.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

I feel like when I started seeing the brand turn around, I went onto the site thinking I was just going to peruse, and I bought. Bought like, a crazy amount of stuff, like dropping, like, 500 bucks on, like, random stuff that I still wear all of the time. Like, I have no regrets on any of those purchases.

[Courtney]

Another thing I'll say is that I think they. They do a good job with women's jeans. The Abercrombie of old, to me was very, like, super skinny jeans, jeans that didn't, like, always fit people with hips very well. And, you know, it was just, like, fit, like one type of body. And I feel like now their jeans are. Are just, like, a lot more comfortable. They almost kind of do, like, a good American thing where they have, like, a little bit of stretch to them, and I think that that has been, like, a huge success for them also. Do you remember how we were not allowed to go into Abercrombie as children? We literally were not allowed. When we would go to the. The mall in Orange county, we were not allowed to go inside that store at all. We were not, like.

[Sammy Cohen]

Because it was devious.

[Courtney]

It was devious. I mean, it was like, you know, shirtless models. Yeah.

[Chandler]

I think there was a time, though, I think when Bruce Weber was doing a lot of their photography when the modeling for it was inappropriate challenge.

[Courtney]

It was softcore, and I'll leave it at that. It was softcore.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

I did a video on Abercrombie, and what I'll do is I'll get the pictures to go behind me for, like, a green screen. And I was going through the pictures because I wanted to do, like, a throwback to what the models looked like. And I was like, this is inappropriate for me to even put online now.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Sammy Cohen]

Like, these men, you see everyone.

[Courtney]

And it was also, like, teenager.

[Sammy Cohen]

I know.

[Courtney]

Yeah. It was kind of gross.

[Chandler]

I'm sure our mom was right.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

So she was absolutely correct. I'm glad I didn't see more of that than I needed to. No. It's so interesting that Abercrombie had this massive success following being a brand that, like, even. It's just ethos of being as hot and ripped and skinny as possible, which really was what it was.

[Sammy Cohen]

It was.

[Chandler]

It was like that. And then we entered the era of inclusivity and not trying to focus so much on that. And it's just. It is cool to see that it was able to resurrect itself.

[Sammy Cohen]

Right.

[Chandler]

The ship become so. So incredibly profitable, and they make so much money. Very curious for your thoughts on Victoria's Secret, which, you know, hasn't had that same success story.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah. So Victoria's Secret, I'd say, is in this really interesting position now because they had this reckoning in the Victoria's Secret fashion show era, where it was almost similar to Abercrombie. It was the opposite of inclusivity, and. And it was very much not diverse company, and it got a ton of heat for that. Right. And I think in the years since then, there's been this huge lull of Victoria's Secret also. A huge part of it has been the competitors. You have the skims of it all that have really come in and taken a ton of market share away. And recently there's been a new CEO that's come in and the CEO's name is Hilary. Super. She was previously leading Savage Fenty, which is obviously a very well known brand by Rihanna. She previously had experience at Anthropologie, so she knows the retail world quite well. Victoria's Secret, I actually am bullish on. I think that Victoria's Secret can change things around because we're in this really unique period of nostalgia. Brands, the Abercrombies of the world, like J. Crew also having a resurgence. Like, Victoria's Secret is right in that same echelon. And I do think that if leadership comes in and is able to come out with some stellar products, like, I've already started to see some influencer collaborations with Victoria's Secret that have caught my eye. So I think over the next year, we're going to start to see a turnaround again.

[Chandler]

Well, I think that, I mean, we kind of talked about a little bit about Crocs, like how they utilized all these collaborations to resurrect the brand and now they're doing so great. I think a similar thing happened at Tiffany, right Where like, like Tiffany jewelry. I think to me we all think of the chain bracelet or whatever that was.

[Courtney]

Charm bracelet.

[Chandler]

The charm bracelet and it kind of in the heart necklace and it kind of fell out of fashion. But I almost feel like Hailey Bieber like resurrected that entire brand overnight. So it will be interesting to see if Victoria's Secret can pull that off with more celebrities and influencers.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah, yeah. I really think that they can.

[Chandler]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Courtney]

I mean, I just got to say though, if Victoria, Secretary Hillary. Super. If you're listening, like, we gotta do something about the fragrances at Victoria's Secret. I would like those to be scrubbed. And also maybe let's let in some more natural light into the store. Those are my, my two cents. The stores still feel very dated to me.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

You know, so embarrassing. But when I was like a freshman in high school, I repainted my room hot pink because, like, subliminally slash consciously, I love the Victoria's Secret color anyway. I know. Why did I just admit that?

[Courtney]

So that is really embarrassing.

[Chandler]

Another fun Victoria's Secret fact is I had a boyfriend in high school who was doing some modeling and he ended up moving to New York and I visited him when I was in college. One of his friends was a Victoria's Secret model. Or like all his friends were these models, right? And I remember she was just like so thin. And they were all talking about how Victoria's Secret had told her she needed to lose five more pounds to work with them. Oh, my God, she's now like a major model. But it is just so crazy how toxic that was. And like, we always talk about how, like, Gen Z has it so terribly because they grew up on social media. They always had Instagram to compare themselves. And it's true. I also think, though, they did get spared the millennial experience of growing up idolizing the Victoria's Secret fashion show, which made us all, I mean, made me feel horrible.

[Courtney]

Horrible. I mean, yeah, the era of, like, the Giselle, Adriana Lima, like, it's just. It was dark days.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we can safely say that right now those days are behind us, because any company that says or tries to put that out there is going to be canceled.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Sammy Cohen]

And you even see, like, people online. There was that whole scandal of that girl on TikTok who was, like, essentially promoting questionable eating methods. And she ended up getting, like a write up in. It was either the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times, like, this expose on her. And then her TikTok account was, like, deactivated. There was all of this backlash against it. And it just goes to show that everyone has gotten the memo. You cannot fat shame people. You cannot promote this skinny over everything culture because it's not healthy. But it's also so freaking toxic.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah. So I'm. I'm happy. Agree. I'm happy we're past that.

[Courtney]

And it honestly feels dated at this point.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Chandler]

I feel like I saw this YouTube video of someone casting Victoria or these people casting Victoria's Secret for the show. And you just look and it's like these malnourished children essentially, like, walking in front of them and they're like, yeah, they're not X, Y or Z enough. And it's just. It's so great how far we've come from that.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Sammy Cohen]

Amen.

[Chandler]

Sammy. Thank you so much for being here. This has been so incredible. You're truly such a wealth of information. Everyone, you need to follow. Sammy Cohen talks on Instagram.

[Sammy Cohen]

Right? Yeah.

[Chandler]

S A M M I C O H E N talks.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yes.

[Chandler]

Okay. And same thing on Tik Tok.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yes.

[Chandler]

Perfect. And then you have your.

[Sammy Cohen]

Yes. I also have a newsletter, it's called Social Currency, where I talk about the intersection of Wall street and culture. So a lot of these deep dives, really, like the biggest news stories of the week that are in the world of, like, brands and companies. So that comes out every Saturday.

[Chandler]

Incredible. Everyone subscribe to Sammy's newsletter. Thank you so much for being here. Chandler. Thank you for co hosting.

[Courtney]

Thank you.

[Chandler]

You did a great job.

[Sammy Cohen]

Thank you for having me.

[Chandler]

All right, you guys. And we will be back on Patreon on Friday. Love you. Bye.