251: Celeb Divorce Q+A with our Fav Divorce Attorney, our Dad!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pop Apologists – Episode 251: Celeb Divorce Q+A with our Fav Divorce Attorney, our Dad!

Episode Information:

• Title: Pop Apologists
• Host/Author: PodcastOne
• Description: A podcast by two sisters who care about celebrities as much as their family.
• Episode: 251: Celeb Divorce Q+A with our Fav Divorce Attorney, our Dad!
• Release Date: December 5, 2024

---

Introduction and Guest Welcome

In Episode 251 of Pop Apologists, hosts Chandler and Lauren welcome a very special guest: their father, John Bledsoe, a seasoned family law attorney. The episode delves into the intricacies of celebrity divorces, providing both personal anecdotes and professional insights.

Notable Quotes:

• Chandler (00:21): "We are gathered here today at Pop Apologist for a very exciting episode. We have family law attorney John Bledsoe, who also happens to be our dear father on the show with us today. Welcome, dad."
• John Bledsoe (00:34): "Really glad to be here, girls."

Celebrity Divorces Discussed

1. Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie’s Protracted Divorce

The conversation kicks off with an in-depth analysis of the high-profile divorce between Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. The hosts provide a timeline of events, highlighting the alleged physical altercations on a private plane in September 2016, leading to Angelina filing for divorce three days later. Brad Pitt's public statements emphasize the toll the legal battle takes on all parties involved, particularly their children.

Notable Points:

• Angelicna’s Allegations: On the flight, Angelina reported feeling like a "hostage" due to Brad's aggressive behavior, including grabbing and shaking her.
• Brad’s Statement to GQ (03:25): "I heard one lawyer say, no one wins in court. It's just a matter of who gets hurt worse."

John Bledsoe’s Insights: John concurred with Brad's sentiment, noting, “I do agree with that. And what do you think the lawyers win? The lawyers win big time, actually.” (05:05)

Key Issues:

• Length of Divorce: The divorce has been ongoing for almost a decade, which is unusually prolonged.
• Property Disputes: Central to the conflict is the Chateau Miraval estate in France. Angelina’s attempt to sell her half to a Russian billionaire was contested by Brad, leading to ongoing legal battles.
• Parental Alienation Claims: The sisters discuss allegations that Angelina engaged in parental alienation, causing their children to distance themselves from Brad.

Notable Quotes:

• Chandler (10:27): "It's nuts. Also, by the way, their relationship was 12 years. Only married for two years, and now the divorce is getting to almost a decade."
• John Bledsoe (16:21): “Parental alienation is actually extremely rare, extremely rare in family law cases.”

2. Kelly Rutherford and Daniel Gersh’s Custody Battle

Next, the podcast shifts focus to the less-publicized divorce of actress Kelly Rutherford and her ex-husband Daniel Gersh. Their divorce began in 2007, shortly after the birth of their child, and escalated into a contentious custody battle exacerbated by Kelly’s pregnancy.

Notable Points:

• Custody Evaluation During Pregnancy (26:29): Daniel Gersh demanded a custody evaluation while Kelly was pregnant, a relatively uncommon and aggressive legal maneuver.
• Child Safety Concerns: Kelly reported alarming incidents, such as leaving her three-year-old son in an unguarded pool, which raised serious safety concerns.
• Legal Maneuvers: The divorce involved accusations of child abduction when Kelly refused to return the children to Monaco, citing jurisdictional issues and fears of the ex-husband taking the children out of the country.

John Bledsoe’s Insights: John discusses typical legal responses to allegations of child endangerment, emphasizing supervised custody and the possibility of shared custody after demonstrating improved parenting. He also touches on the complexities of paternity and the legal recognition of multiple father figures.

Notable Quotes:

• Lauren (26:39): “I think she has to, like, live there part time to like see her kid.”
• John Bledsoe (37:07): “If you get half and half custody, they are thrilled and they assume they're gonna pay money. If you get a female who is primary earner and she is paying support, she's always gonna be furious with 50.”

3. Christine Baumgartner and Kevin Costner’s Divorce

Chandler briefly discusses the divorce between Christine Baumgartner and Kevin Costner, focusing on their prenuptial agreement and subsequent legal disputes over child support and alimony.

Notable Points:

• Prenuptial Terms: Christine received a lump sum payment and monthly support as per the prenup.
• Child Support Argument: Christine’s attorneys contended that the existing prenup did not adequately address the luxury lifestyle of their children, seeking increased support.
• Outcome: Ultimately, Christine received a lower-than-expected settlement, highlighting the challenges of enforcing prenups against exorbitant lifestyles.

Notable Quotes:

• Chandler (41:00): "So, I did want to share a few more details about this case because I think it just. I kind of outlined some of the bullet points of what happened."

Rapid-Fire Q&A with John Bledsoe

The latter part of the episode features a rapid-fire Q&A session where Chandler and Lauren pose various questions to their father, seeking his professional advice on matters related to divorce and family law.

Selected Q&A Highlights:

1. Prenuptial Agreements:

   • Question: "What’s your general opinion on prenups? When should someone do a prenup?"
   • John Bledsoe (46:43): "I think it's a good idea to do them always. I think it is. But make them reasonable."

2. Filing First in Divorce:

   • Question: "One of them files first. They want to be the first person to file. Does that make a difference?"
   • John Bledsoe (47:37): "Super important to file first if you can. In the event of a trial, you get to tell your story first."

3. No-Blame Divorce Systems:

   • Question: "What does a no blame system mean if someone cheats?"
   • John Bledsoe (47:52): "Doesn't matter. The court assumes everybody's cheating. How would the court know?"

4. Child Normalcy Post-Divorce:

   • Question: "Can children be normal after a divorce?"
   • John Bledsoe (48:53): "I think it affects kids a great deal... I do think that kids can reach some level of normalcy. But I think it's much better for kids to grow up in a loving home where their parents love each other and forgive each other."

5. Secrets to a Successful Marriage:

   • Question: "What do you think contributes to staying married? What do you think is the secret to being married?"
   • John Bledsoe (50:50): "I think it's forgiveness, asking for forgiveness, being genuine about it. And when you're sorry, say, honey, I was wrong."

Notable Quotes:

• John Bledsoe (46:56): "Don't commingle, don't combine finances."
• John Bledsoe (50:57): “Honey, I was wrong.”

Closing Remarks and Personal Anecdotes

The episode concludes with personal reflections from Chandler and Lauren, expressing gratitude towards their father for his insights and sharing light-hearted moments about their family dynamics. John emphasizes the importance of mutual respect and understanding in maintaining a healthy marriage.

Notable Quotes:

• Chandler (51:24): "You have to come back. Like, we barely scratched the surface."
• John Bledsoe (51:42): "I love you girls. I'm super proud of you. Both of you."

---

Conclusion

Episode 251 of Pop Apologists offers a compelling blend of celebrity gossip and professional family law advice. With their father, John Bledsoe, providing expert commentary, Chandler and Lauren navigate the complexities of high-profile divorces, offering listeners both entertainment and valuable insights into the legal and emotional facets of marital dissolution.

Key Takeaways:

• Legal Challenges in High-Profile Divorces: The episode highlights how wealth and fame can complicate divorce proceedings, often leading to prolonged legal battles.
• Parental Alienation vs. Estrangement: John Bledsoe distinguishes between these concepts, emphasizing the rarity of true parental alienation in legal cases.
• Importance of Reasonable Prenups: While endorsing prenuptial agreements, John advises keeping them fair to avoid sowing distrust from the outset.
• Impact on Children: The discussion underscores the significant emotional toll divorces can have on children, advocating for environments where children can achieve normalcy post-divorce.

Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how celebrity divorces unfold and the broader implications for those navigating similar personal challenges.

Transcript

[Chandler]

Her side went so hard on. The children are used to the private jets. And I just think the judge was unsympathetic, which.

[Lauren]

I mean, I'm unsympathetic.

[Chandler]

I know.

[John Bledsoe]

I had this woman come in this 10 years ago, and she says, I can't live on $45,000 a month.

[Lauren]

That's merch. That's new merch for us.

[Chandler]

Well, well, well. We are gathered here today at Pop Apologist for a very exciting episode. We have family law attorney John Bledsoe, who also happens to be our dear father on the show with us today. Welcome, dad.

[John Bledsoe]

Really glad to be here, girls.

[Chandler]

Thank you.

[Lauren]

I know you've been waiting for this day. You've been begging to come back on the podcast, haven't you?

[John Bledsoe]

I'm amazed by both of you. You're just very impressive.

[Chandler]

That's so nice.

[John Bledsoe]

You're tall and you're beautiful, and.

[Chandler]

Thanks, dad.

[John Bledsoe]

Greatest product of unskilled labor.

[Chandler]

Wow.

[Lauren]

We can unpack that later.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

Why do we have dad on the podcast? I think we need to say.

[Chandler]

Well, he's obsessed with celebrity gossip.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

He. Generally, when we're. You know, we got on the phone, he's like, did you hear about Channing Tatum and Jenna Dwan and their settlement? And I'm like, dad, don't you have your own clients to think about?

[Lauren]

I mean, dad, do you have a favorite celebrity at all?

[John Bledsoe]

Tom Brady.

[Lauren]

Okay.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Lauren]

Were you. Well, we don't need to get into it, but we.

[John Bledsoe]

He's had a few of his own divorce problems, but I could tell you a funny story if you wanted to.

[Lauren]

Yeah, please, by all means.

[John Bledsoe]

So when Tom and Giselle were. This goes back two years ago when they were trying to figure out their situation. We have some very good friends. And anyway, they were. It was training camp, and Tom Brady, he took, like, eight days off, and he said, I've got to go be with my family. Right. And he's such a superstar that they allowed him to do it. They said, okay. Right. During training camp. We know you're good to go. Take your time. Go be with your family. So anyway, we had some friends who were out. Apparently they were in Costa Rica on a beach and with a couple other families, and they were just having a great time. All. All during this week. There was one couple there, and they were, you know, beautiful people, two or three kids, very secluded place. And they got down to the end of the week, and it came out that it was Tom and Giselle and their kids they were goofing around with. And they didn't even know they're so. They had no idea that it was Tom Brady.

[Chandler]

They're not.

[John Bledsoe]

And they said maybe the guy said. You mean the Tom Brady?

[Lauren]

They didn't recognize him.

[John Bledsoe]

They did not recognize him.

[Lauren]

Those are not. So.

[John Bledsoe]

There are some people who are.

[Chandler]

They're not listeners of this show.

[John Bledsoe]

I won't say their names because I think they are.

[Chandler]

Oh, really?

[John Bledsoe]

I think they are. But it was just so funny because they didn't. They didn't have any idea till the very end.

[Chandler]

Wow.

[Lauren]

Crazy. I wonder if he's less attractive in person because of that. Anyway, we're going to catch more Tom Brady heat if I keep talking.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I highly doubt that that's the case. Well, just to clear the air or, you know, shed some light, dad, you're not obsessed with celebrity gossip?

[John Bledsoe]

Not at all.

[Chandler]

So when we talk about these divorces, you're not the one who's going to lead us through the narratives. That's our job today. Your job is to be the legal representative to share with us your thoughts on settlements on parental alienation. Just the topics that are really kind of the bread and butter of your.

[Lauren]

Business, the things you're actually interested in.

[John Bledsoe]

Okay. Subject near and dear to my heart.

[Lauren]

Exactly.

[Chandler]

Well, without further ado, let's dive into the first divorce on our outline, which has to do with the divorce of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. Dad, you are aware of who they are, right?

[John Bledsoe]

Yes, definitely.

[Lauren]

Okay. Okay.

[Chandler]

Perfect.

[Lauren]

Proud of you.

[Chandler]

So just a brief rundown of this divorce and kind of where we're at now for people. On September 14, 2016, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie got into an alleged physical altercation on a private plane ride with her six children from France to their home in Los Angeles and heavily redacted FBI documents. Angelina reported that Brad's actions made her feel, quote, like a hostage on the plane as he allegedly grabbed and shook her, pushed her into a wall, and punched the ceiling of the aircraft. She further alleged that he looked like he was going to attack one of their children after that child called him a, quote, prick. During the alleged altercation, Angelina also admitted to wrapping her arms around Brad's neck in a chokehold style. Three days after the incident, Angelina filed for divorce, listing their date of separation as September 15th. One day after the plane ride, this is what Angelina's attorney, Laura Wasser said. This decision was made for the health of the family. Brad added in a statement, I'm very saddened by this, but what matters most now is the well being of our kids. I kindly asked the press to give them the space they deserve. During this challenging time in 2017, Brad said to GQ, I heard one lawyer say, no one wins in court. It's just a matter of who gets hurt worse. And it seems to be true. You spend a year just focused on building a case to prove your point and why you're right and why they're wrong. And it's just an investment in vitriolic hatred. I just refuse. And fortunately, my partner in this agrees. Well, it doesn't seem that they agreed to that for very long because the divorce has been quite protracted. But before we get into, you know, more developments really quick. Do you agree with that, dad, that no one wins in court?

[John Bledsoe]

I do agree. I do agree with that. And what do you think the lawyers win? The lawyers win big time, actually.

[Chandler]

So I had the pleasure of copy editing your book. So our dad has written a book called Split Decisions. Right. And it's kind of a primer on endorsing the state of California, isn't it?

[Lauren]

Like, what you should know about your. Your divorce in California.

[John Bledsoe]

Yeah, I think it's how to get through the process.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

It's not so much a legal treat us or whatever. It's more like just how do you deal with the process of divorce? Which is very taxing.

[Lauren]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chandler]

I think one of the things I really took away from that editing experience was something you said, and it was basically, if you try to win, you will just lose harder and everyone will lose, like you said, except the attorney. And I feel like one of the things mom always said growing up was when you would have new clients, you would tell them, like, don't do this. Like, try to resolve it. Try to figure it out. It's not something you take pleasure in as a business.

[John Bledsoe]

True. That's very true. Here's what I think is interesting about divorce and especially in the court process. All right? And it's got to be for a client, it's got to be extremely shocking and upsetting because you're dealing with something that's extremely expensive. You're paying your attorney $600 an hour. Probably the lowest paid person on your attorney staff is $175 an hour. You're paying out huge amounts of money in a process that is incredibly dysfunctional, incredibly slow. It has the speed of a government bureaucracy. So you're paying a fortune to then go to a government bureaucracy. Like, you may go to court on a typical day, you arrive at 8:30, and your attorney's going to charge you for travel time. So you're going to be in four hours that morning. Hopefully you get out by noon. That's a win. Getting out by noon. So you've spent four hours of attorney time and maybe the court has 15 to 20 minutes to triage your case. You're waiting around, you're waiting, waiting, waiting. It's incredibly inefficient and incredibly taxing. And there's a better way to go about it, which we talk about in my book. But there's a better way than going to the public courthouse, which you will probably go to 10 to 15 times before you resolve your typical divorce.

[Lauren]

That many times. Even if it's a pretty peaceful or if it's not super complicated, 10 to.

[John Bledsoe]

15 times, it can be, can be a lot of trips to the courthouse.

[Lauren]

Wow.

[John Bledsoe]

I have to say, looking at that, seeing myself on the screen, I look much more weathered than you guys. And that's probably the result of going to the courthouse for 30 years, fighting divorce and stuff. I'm sure it ages you.

[Lauren]

Yeah. I mean you are. You spend your days like managing conflict, which does not sound even remotely peaceful. Or you get used to it, like extremely stressful.

[John Bledsoe]

Get used to it.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

You're pretty easily able, or it seems like you're able to compartmentalize.

[John Bledsoe]

You have to be able to do that.

[Chandler]

Yeah, yeah. Like a surviving mechanism.

[Lauren]

Did you know that about yourself going into it? Did you know like going into family law that this would be like somewhat easy for you emotionally because you could compartmentalize or is that just like did that end up working out?

[John Bledsoe]

I think you can get caught up in it like anything. I think I'm pretty calm, but it's a lot of drama. Sometimes the attorneys want to be the actors.

[Chandler]

Right.

[John Bledsoe]

You get narcissistic people, they hire a narcissistic attorney and you're off to the race.

[Lauren]

Well, and a lot of times I'm sure someone's attorney, but also maybe a little bit their therapist because they're like unloading these issues that they're having with their spouse on you and they're paying through the nose for it. I mean, I just, I remember you being on long extensive calls with people and where, you know, they're complaining about something they're soon to be ex spouse is doing.

[John Bledsoe]

You have to be a good listener. And I think so many times people do not feel hurt. One thing I would say, anybody going through a divorce, do not hire an attorney who is a narcissist or a borderline himself. Hire an attorney who Wants to do the best thing for you. Who doesn't get caught up in all of it. One thing we tell people to do is go to a mediation with a retired or private neutral. Usually they're retired judges. Go to mediation, have your attorney by your side. Try and resolve it that way. Try and resolve it in an office building where you can be fully heard by the court. Most people just want to be heard. They want to tell their side of the story. I heard a judge say one time that he just let people sit and talk. Most people cannot talk for longer than 20 minutes. So let them tell their story. And then once people feel heard, you can get to the resolution easier.

[Lauren]

Wow.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And do you feel like people insist on going to court and not doing mediation because they want to use the court system to abuse their ex spouses?

[John Bledsoe]

Essentially, There are some.

[Chandler]

Or just want they want or they feel like it's more justice if.

[Lauren]

How they can win.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

You know, if you have unlimited money. But I think even anybody will get tired of the. Of the process.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

So you. Sometimes you just have to do that.

[Chandler]

Well, Angelina and Brad didn't get tired of it too quickly. Okay. Because they are still battling to this day. And they divorced in 2017. We are in 20. We are about almost in 2025. It's nuts. Also, by the way, their relationship was 12 years. Only married for two years, and now the divorce is getting to almost a decade.

[John Bledsoe]

That seems way too long, actually. I don't know why they would be going that long. I mean, are there. Do they have kids under 18 still?

[Chandler]

They do have a few kids under 18. Most of their children are adults. Now. One of the big reasons why they have this long, protracted divorce is they had Chateau Miraval, which is a winery in France that was also a home of their. A second home of theirs or a fifth home or whatever. And Angelina sold her half of the estate to a party that Brad Pitt said was basically like selling it.

[Lauren]

It was.

[Chandler]

I think it was to some Russian billionaire, and it was basically selling it to someone who was.

[Lauren]

He contested the sale of it. Right.

[Chandler]

He contested the sale and he said it was selling it to someone who was like a hostile party to him. And he said she did that essentially to get retribution toward him. She said she did that to try to be done with this phase of her life. So they've been fighting over Miraval. A judge, like, I think, struck down that sale. So they've been fighting over Miraval ever since. And they've also been fighting about whether or not so Brad Pitt wants to keep almost everything that was between them under NDA. And he's been trying to use the court system to essentially make her life really difficult. And he said that, you know, if he needed to produce his NDAs with her, she needed to produce every single NDA she's ever signed in the past, you know, decade, ever since they were together. Which, if you're in her line of work, that's just a ton of paperwork. And what her attorney said is it was trying to use the court system, just bury her in paperwork so that revealing information about him did not come out.

[Lauren]

I think Brad Pitt also here is allegedly was potentially at times, abusive to their kids. He's an alcoholic. There's a lot of, like, you know, potentially bad information about him out there that he doesn't want.

[John Bledsoe]

Are they still in the public court system or are they in a more of a private setting?

[Chandler]

Well, in a private setting, will the documents become publicly available?

[John Bledsoe]

Yeah, they can be, but you're actually still going to an office building. There's not a bailiff there with a gun. There's just a court. You're generally in a conference room with your attorney. The other side's in their own conference room. Sometimes you go to a general meeting room, but it's a lot more private.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

I would be surprised if they were still in the public courthouse.

[Lauren]

Why would you be surprised if they were still in the public courthouse?

[John Bledsoe]

Well, just because they have the money to go private. And why do you want all your dirty laundry? I mean, you can keep a lot of things quiet. For one thing, in an office building, a court hearing is generally a public meeting.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

You're not going to be able to go into an office building and see people mediating their case.

[Chandler]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[John Bledsoe]

But keep it much more private. I'll tell you one thing that's interesting that you talked about the kids. What's interesting is the kids. You say some of their kids are adult or adults now. So the kids go from being somewhat protected parties in the divorce or protected people. And once they get B18 now, they're just adult witnesses. They can witness against either parent. Now, not that you want them to do that, but they do go from kind of a protected person to a.

[Lauren]

Witness where, like they could be called.

[John Bledsoe]

Yeah, it's a bad thing to do, but sometimes you need to do it.

[Lauren]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm going through a big Martha Stewart moment. I cannot get enough wisdom from that queen. This is why I am loving Masterclass. You can take Martha's Think like a Boss, Live like a Legend classes and sit at her feet virtually learning about how she navigates business, entrepreneurship and leadership. Masterclass makes for a great gift this holiday season. With Masterclass, your loved ones can learn from the best to become their best. I'm even considering gifting Lauren Judd Apatow's Craft a Stand Up Set class so that she can be a bit funnier on the podcast. I use Masterclass and you should too, if you want to level up your skills or if you just want to spoil a loved one this holiday season. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com popapologists for the current offer. That's up to 50% [e-mail] popapologists masterclass.com popapologists so there's basically two sides to this.

[Chandler]

And Angelina's side is that Brad was alcoholic, physically verbally abusive almost towards the kids at one point. That's what caused the divorce. What Brad's side is is that she wanted to take a job with the United nations that would move their kids and him out of the country. He didn't want that. And she made up this whole story in order to try to get custody of their kids and have this messy divorce so she could take that job. That's his side of the story. One thing that's really interesting that Chandler and I have noted is ever since this divorce, the kids want nothing to do with Brad. And Maddox has even posted publicly on his Instagram calling his dad horrible names, saying that he was, you know, abusive.

[Lauren]

One of the kids has even like removed Pitt from their last name.

[Chandler]

All the legal adult children have removed Pitt from their last name. So we'll get a lot of responses that are like, Angelina Jolie is just clearly engaging in parental alienation. And that is the reason why you'll never see him with his kids and they want nothing to do with him is because she has brainwashed her kids against him. Chandler and I feel a little suspicious that she'll be able to brainwash all five of their children.

[Lauren]

Especially when both of the parents are like mega rich and could, you know, give their kids whatever they wanted.

[Chandler]

Yeah, it seems hard to believe that. Cause a lot of times, you know, unfortunately children will want to go with the spouse who will give them a nicer life and more freedom. That I feel like that tends to happen a lot, sadly. And they might not want to go with like the disciplinarian spouse that has the child's best interest at heart. Yeah, so we've just been a little bit confused here. So kind of just for you, hearing the facts of the case, hearing that some of the adult or all the adult children have dropped his legal last name and don't want to spend time with him, do you feel like it's possible that this is just the result of Angelina engaging in parental alienation?

[John Bledsoe]

Here's what I would say. It depends on the age of the kids. Parental alienation is actually extremely rare, extremely rare in family law cases. What is prevalent is estrangement. Alienation is where you take a kid, let's say you take a 10 year old kid, now that's probably a pretty good age to alienate a child. What happens is the one parent, the alienating parent takes the child and turns them against the other parent and tells them, oh, daddy's bad, daddy's mean, daddy's this, daddy's that. And so what happens is the child then begins have this inner conflict because in their own mind they've had this loving parent who now the mother is, or let's say in this case the mother is calling a terrible person, saying how evil they are. And the child says, no, I love my dad. Wait a minute, I love my dad. I don't think that's true at all. But then the person they really are tuned into and love so much is telling them, no, dad's bad, dad's evil. So what happens is you have a child then who their inner compass gets messed up because they think I can't trust my own gut feelings because I'm being told something different. So alienation is so terrible from what I understand, because you're taking a child and you're messing around with their internal compass. They're gaslighting their conscience. And so then the child says, I guess I can't really trust my own gut feeling about other things also if I can't trust my gut feeling about my dad. So what happens most is estrangement. Like I could see. And this never happened, thank heavens. But let's say you got a mother who's very, very fun, very, very cool, very, very smart. I've seen this before. She takes the kids and she says, and she just makes it really, really fun for them. And then I saw a family one time, they had like six or seven kids and the mother wanted to hurt the dad and they, most of them were girls, a lot like our family. And they had half and half custody. So when it was time for the Kids to go to be with dad. Mom would say, oh, well, if you go to Dad's, you're not going to be able to go to this and this and this that we're doing this weekend. So then the older kids started identifying with mom, really, and started hanging with her more. And so then the younger kids felt somewhat pressured or somewhat like, oh, yeah, I want to be cool like the older ones. I want to. I want to stay with Mom.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

And she was really just trying to hurt dad. That's the kind of evil stuff you see. Now, in this particular case, they had a couple of little boys who were adamant, no, I'm going with dad. But the rest of the kids went with Mom. And mom was very, very charismatic and persuasive and loving and persuaded some of the older ones to walk away from dad.

[Chandler]

Really sad.

[John Bledsoe]

That's it. Now, that's estrangement. And you have all varying degrees of estrangement. For whatever reason, the child's mad at dad or child's mad at mom, and the other parent is kind of encouraging them to not care for the other parents.

[Lauren]

Manipulative.

[John Bledsoe]

Super manipulative.

[Chandler]

Hearing that, circling back to Angelina and Brad, it's probably highly unlikely that she was able to just work up all of her adult children to dropping his last name legally and all her children spending no time with him. I. I mean, I've talked with Chandler about this. I feel like, as a kid, you really have a good sense of what's happening in the home you're in. You have good instincts. Right. And I just find it hard to believe that all of those things aren't chatting with each other, discussing what they've seen. It just seems really suspicious to me that we can write this off as just Angelina being, you know, an evil woman who turned her children against their father.

[Lauren]

Right.

[John Bledsoe]

I think that my experience is. I mean, I've only interviewed a few kids, but it's amazing when you talk to kids how much they know what's going on, really. They know exactly what is happening. I've had cases where I want to get the kids to talk to the judge because I know it will turn the entire case around. I've got cases like that right now. And so if we can get the judge to talk to the kid, it really eviscerates the lying parent because the kid is going to tell the truth. Typically, what happens is the judge will take the child in his chambers and maybe even take the court reporter in there, maybe the court clerk, and they'll have a talk with the child. And then the court will come out and say, well, to the people, sort of tongue in cheek. I don't know how you two produce such a great kid, but I love this kid. This kid's great. And then do very much what the kid wants. They're very credible. Typically, they're very credible. So having your kid talk to the court will often be a real game changer.

[Chandler]

Wow.

[Lauren]

Are kids ever afraid to do that because they don't want to hurt their parents or they're like. They feel like there's going to be retribution in some way?

[John Bledsoe]

They do. They do sometimes. But they still do it because in the end, their own situation is too crucial.

[Lauren]

And.

[John Bledsoe]

And parents have to. It's funny. I mean, there are parents who are estranged from kids. There are parents who properly should be estranged from kids because they've done some terrible things and they're not willing to work through it or apologize or whatever.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Okay. Well, should we get to our next celebrity divorce?

[Lauren]

Yes, let's get to our next celebrity divorce.

[John Bledsoe]

Let me say one thing about Brad and Angelina. Just looking at that, from what little you've told me, I doubt the kids are alienated, and they may not even be estranged. I could see a situation where their mom was probably. And I don't know anything about this family, but I could see where maybe their mom was closer to them on a daily basis. Maybe their dad at times was moody, and maybe he. You know, I don't know if he was using a lot of alcohol or whatever, but maybe he was drunk and mean. And I. I can only speculate, but sounds like kids are not lying about their dad.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Especially all of them when they have, what, six kids or something? Five. Fun.

[John Bledsoe]

There's an old saying that says you can BS the fans, you can't BS the players.

[Lauren]

So true. So true, dad.

[Chandler]

I'm loving that.

[John Bledsoe]

I'll tell you what else is interesting. Another reason to go to the private court system is you have a judge's experience. You have a judge who's 30 years in. They've seen everything. They know how to resolve cases. They can cut through the bs. A lot of times you go to the public court, you're going to get a new judge who really isn't that experience, and they're going to be learning on your dime.

[Lauren]

Interesting. What, like, so what will happen? What. What is this learning on your. Like, what's a judge learning?

[John Bledsoe]

And the other thing about it is they just have to learn by their own experience. You're like, now I'M just going to say it. In California, our new judges, a lot of them are public defenders, bleeding hearts, a lot of them. And they will get taken in by. And everybody has to learn by experience. I mean, I've got 30 years experience under my belt. But these judges, they learn, they learn by experience and they're going to get taken for a ride sometimes by lies.

[Chandler]

Right. It sounds like they can be more easily fooled by narcissistic or borderline attorneys because they haven't been through the wringer with enough of them.

[John Bledsoe]

You're really talking about a situation where the judge, maybe they've been in criminal law their whole life. I think we're seeing somewhat in the California is a lot of these judges, they bring them from public defenders and they promote these public defenders. So then they're not so willing to find domestic violence occurring. They don't like the soft domestic violence that the California law provides. Many of them have been defending criminals who really do serious violence, spousal battery, that type of thing. And so there's. And they are used to the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt because that's their criminal background. It's a preponderance of evidence is 50.001% where beyond a reasonable doubt is a much higher standard. So a lot of times people go into court trying to prove domestic violence and they're not as successful as they should be because the courts are. Have a criminal background and they're. They can't get the preponderance of evidence standard. They revert back to their criminal defense roots of beyond a reasonable doubt. And that makes it harder for people to prove their cases.

[Lauren]

And is I guess, like what is needed to prove domestic violence, a preponderance of evidence. But what does that mean? I've never heard that expression before.

[John Bledsoe]

The definition of domestic violence in California is extremely liberal. If you're seen to be withholding resources from your spouse, that's what we call domestic violence coercive control. If you're withholding resources, if you're keeping your spouse from seeing their family members, that can be seen as domestic violence coercive control. So the definition has really expanded and a lot of these judges who have a criminal defense background are not having it.

[Chandler]

Oh, interesting.

[Lauren]

I had no idea about that, that there was a difference. Lauren, I have to tell you that when I was in London, I asked Ben if he could bring a bigger suitcase because I wanted to, you know, bring home some goodies with me.

[Chandler]

But when he got to London, he.

[Lauren]

Opened up his suitcase and you Know what he'd stuffed it with?

[Chandler]

Illegal items.

[Lauren]

No. Clean simple eats travel packs. Like he must have brought at least.

[Chandler]

He's gonna be here for five days.

[Lauren]

He must have brought 20 of them.

[Chandler]

You know, when this man's packing, he has the right priorities. Protein.

[Lauren]

No, absolutely. I was really impressed. I was actually kind of grateful because I have not been eating well and I was very happy to get my hand on some of that delicious protein. The travel packs are amazing, everyone. Clean Simple Eats. We love it. Eating it, drinking it, and vibing it any way we can for years.

[Chandler]

I am personally obsessed with both their protein powders and their clear protein. We all know we're supposed to get 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. And it's very difficult to do if you're not being focused and you're not actually intentionally trying to get in more protein. That's where Clean Simple Eats steps in. Highly recommend. It's clean, grass fed protein. Your body needs it.

[Lauren]

I would never even come close to hitting my protein goals if it weren't for Clean Simple Eats. Let me just say that they are single handedly helping me reach those goals. One scoop of the powder has 20 grams of protein. One can of the clear protein has 20 grams. It's perfect.

[Chandler]

Everyone go to cleansable eats.com use code popapologist for 10% off. Cleansimpleats.com code popapologists for 10% off.

[Lauren]

Okay, so I want to talk about a lesser known celebrity, I would say, but a fascinating divorce. Dad, you're not going to know who these people are. And I don't mean that as a dick. Well, Kelly Rutherford.

[Chandler]

Oh, never mind.

[Lauren]

I thought it was Kelly Clarkson. Yeah, I mean, we can talk about Kelly Clarkson, but it's less interesting. I would say Kelly Rutherford. So Kelly Rutherford is a beautiful actor, actress. Whatever you say.

[Chandler]

She was on Gossip Girl.

[Lauren]

Have you heard of the show Gossip Girl?

[John Bledsoe]

No.

[Lauren]

Yeah, that's okay. Anyway, she's an actress. Maybe not like Angelina Jolie level, but definitely recognizable.

[Chandler]

Yes.

[Lauren]

So she married a German businessman named Daniel Gersh and he was a tech entrepreneur and he made a small fortune, like in Germany, you know, when he was very young. And they were only married for a short time. So they married in 2007. They welcomed their son, Hermes. Erms. Herms. How do you say it?

[Chandler]

Well, Kelly Rutherford loves Hermes, so I'm positive it's actually named after the designer. Hermes.

[Lauren]

I listened to a Vanity Fair article about this and the AI pronounced it as Ermes. Anyway, so she welcomes their son. You know in 2007. But then in 2009 she files for divorce. And at the time her son's two and she's pregnant with their second daughter. And just through this pregnancy, their divorce just totally spirals out of control. In fact, her husband makes her go through a custody evaluation while she was pregnant. Is that pretty uncommon or is that common? Have you seen that ever a custody while you're pregnant?

[John Bledsoe]

Oh, yeah.

[Lauren]

Really? I thought that was so, yeah. Anyway, she says, quote, he sued me like he'd sued Google. That's another whole other story. But basically there's their divorce totally spiraled into chaos and she didn't even want him in the room when she delivered their baby. And that was even brought up in court that he said, you know, that she was trying to. Like you've seen that. I was shocked by that.

[John Bledsoe]

Okay, imagine you're the dad and you were there when the baby was conceived and then the baby is now going to be delivered. And it's very crazy because these guys, they want to get in and be there for the birth of their child even though they're broke up with the mom.

[Lauren]

Right.

[John Bledsoe]

And the mom will not have it. And typically the mom can have one person in there and she wants her mom. They want the mother in law in there. It is a little creepy because some of these guys, they'll hire this lawyer and then they'll try and get in the birthing room even though they're totally broke up with their. Or they want to get in as soon as possible and. And imagine they've just had the baby and then you've got to bring the father in who now is totally estranged from the mother and he's. Of course he wants his time and all this. It's very, it's a little weird, a little creepy.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Is that more about like ego? Like just I want to, you know, also be there and a part of it or is it just like coming from a place like, well, this is also my child. You know, I'm yearning for that. Like, I don't know, where do you be?

[John Bledsoe]

It's coming from a place of entitlement. But when the people really in a situation where they hate each other, it's very dicey. It's very.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Lauren]

It also feels like a little bit of a power move. Okay, so anyway.

[John Bledsoe]

Exactly.

[Lauren]

So to move on in this messy birth. Divorce situation. So she listed the baby's name on the birth certificate as Helena Gersh, which is her, you know, ex husband's last name. But she left the Father Field Blank. She said that she feared that because if it had his name on the birth certificate, he could take her out of the country because he's not an American. And I guess at one point his mother had said to her, you know, when they were going through all this, like, well, why don't you just leave the children with us and you can go back to the United States or whatnot. So she was very afraid that, you know, he would take the kids. And it's turned into this really ugly custody battle where she was having to. He was living in Monaco, you know, all the way over in Europe, and she was having to fly back and forth from the US from LA or from New York to Monaco. I think she flew back 66 times or something. And he only had to, he had to pay for like about, I think, six of those tickets. And so she kind of went like bk trying to like handle this custody battle. And so anyway, this all kind of came to a head because one summer she opted not to put her kids back on a plane to Monaco after a six week visit and was then accused of. Of abduction and parental kidnapped.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

And this like really blew up in her face.

[John Bledsoe]

Child abduction.

[Lauren]

One of the bigger reasons why she didn't do it is because basically the courts couldn't decide who had jurisdiction. Like LA Court, I think, had given up jurisdiction and then New York court wouldn't take responsibility for it. She said, like, you know, none of the courts are protecting me, so I just have to protect my kids. I'm not sending them back.

[John Bledsoe]

I'll tell you what's funny. You talk about that though. What just struck me about what you said was I would go to these. Still go to these family law meetings where you. It's kind of an annual where every couple years you have to kind of refresh all the training and all that. And the guy who used to give the seminar would often refer to the survey that was taken in California where they had all these people in hospitals and these women gave birth to these kids and then they would. They just did a routine test of the mother, the father and the baby. And of course the father is the one who the mother has designated as the father, the person who's there with her and they found somewhere. And I'm thinking It's almost only 70% of the men who were with the mom actually were genetically the dad.

[Lauren]

Whoa.

[John Bledsoe]

They just did the survey. And sometimes the mother will designate a different person as the dad than is really the dad.

[Lauren]

That's crazy.

[John Bledsoe]

I believe it's three years in a marriage without challenging the paternity, your daddy forever.

[Lauren]

Real.

[Chandler]

Wait, I'm sorry, Record scratch. What?

[John Bledsoe]

In other words, once you've been married to somebody for three years, then you're the dad, even if somebody else is really the dad.

[Chandler]

And even if you show that genetically, you're still on the hook till that child turns 18, as far as I know. Wow. Assuming that's for the best interest of the child. Right. That's had a father figure for three years.

[John Bledsoe]

You know, the real interesting part is of the, I think, of family laws, actually. Paternity is much more interesting because they have so many different theories on somebody being the father and not being the father. There are so many permutations or things that can happen and where somebody can be. For instance, I had a case where a guy had had a child with a lady who. And he really didn't want to be married to her. And. But they were sharing their child half and half, which is the most common custody arrangement, I think, now in California. But they're sharing their little boy half and half. And then what happened was he goes back to pick up the child one day, and she's there, and one thing led to another, and they slept together. And at this time, she was living with another guy.

[Lauren]

Okay.

[John Bledsoe]

But anyway, somehow. So she has the baby and his baby number two. His baby number two. And she assumed that it was the guy who she's living with, not the guy who stopped by to get their son.

[Chandler]

Oh, my gosh.

[John Bledsoe]

And so what happened was, pretty soon she says, you know, she's just thinking, he looks a lot like her ex wife was a little girl. She looks a lot like her brother. They look a lot alike. So she did a cheek swab test, sent it in the mail, and came to find out that the guy, the father of her first child, was actually the father of the second child, not the man she was living with.

[Chandler]

Wow. So what happened?

[John Bledsoe]

Well, actually, it was a very crazy thing. Well, the person she's living with just was, okay. But the person who she was not living with was, I think, much more financially successful in any event. So then what happened was they finally she tells the guy who's the father, first child, she says, you know, she's your baby. She's yours too, you know. And then she changed her mind and said, no, I'm gonna. You know. And what had happened was the guy who she's living with, now, it's two years into it, he's developed a bond with the child because he sees her Every day. And the guy who goes to pick up his son just sees her every. Doesn't often, but knows it's his kid. So then they get into a fight, they get into a big court fight. And the judge actually decided, which I think what was a wrong decision. The judge decided that the guy she's living with was going to get to.

[Chandler]

Be the dad because he's been the father figure.

[John Bledsoe]

Yeah. And there was some, there were some things that went into it. He was, you know, the racial ethnicity he was, who would have brought great shame upon him, could have messed up their whole little family. And so the judge decided that I'm going to let this guy be the dad. I'm going to let the guy she's living with, the non bio dad, be the dad.

[Chandler]

And did the bio dad want custody?

[John Bledsoe]

He did.

[Chandler]

He did.

[John Bledsoe]

He did. He wanted custody.

[Chandler]

And did the mom want him to have custody as well?

[John Bledsoe]

No, mom did not. Mom was fighting him. Even though mom said, I know your dad. Then mom decides I better keep my own household intact. There is some reasoning to that because the mother was pretty non functional. Really, really couldn't make very good living or anything like that. And so I think the judge thought I'm going to be really wise. I'm going to hold this family together. And I know that bio dad will always be there because he'll always be there to pick up the pieces if something goes wrong. And there's actually some law in California now that says a child can have two fathers.

[Chandler]

Whoa.

[John Bledsoe]

Yeah. One bio dad, but two actual fathers.

[Lauren]

Got it.

[Chandler]

And one dad by all their accounts.

[John Bledsoe]

Like they could have agreed, for instance, that both were gonna be the father.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Wow.

[John Bledsoe]

You get about this little child someday at her wedding with dad on each side walking her down.

[Lauren]

Wow, that's.

[John Bledsoe]

So it's ultimately the best interest of the child.

[Lauren]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I just wanna share a few more details about this case because I think it just. I kind of outlined some of the bullet points of what happened. But I think that when I got more information about what Kelly Rutherford experienced and you know, why she was so afraid to send her kids back to be with their father in Monaco. But she said that a part of this issue was child safety. The child evaluator had admitted to being perplexed that Gersh, her ex husband, had driven the infant Helena in a car seat in the front seat of a Porsche convertible. Just, just kind of like what? And then also Rutherford so she hired a private detective to take pictures of his swimming pool. And her concern Was that, you know, the children's safety was not being looked out for when they were like in the pool. Because during a vacation in Bermuda, he left his children on the far side of an unguarded lifeguard pool and the three year old could not swim and the father had not put her in, you know, a puddle jumper or something. And a random pregnant woman noticed that the 3 year old had fallen into the pool and that she literally jumped into the pool and saved the daughter who was like, you know, underwater, like, and then she had to like give mouth to mouth or whatever, help her, like, cough up the water. So anyway, just like these things happen and you are, you know, even though this like ended up blowing up in her face and, you know, the courts did not like that she didn't send her kids back, it's like, you know, I don't blame her when she's so concerned.

[John Bledsoe]

Here's what would typically happen in a case like that. If you, the judge thinks the parents being super careless, they will maybe take the child away for a while or do monitor visitation, something like that, then tell the parent, you better go to a parenting class and you better figure this out. Do you ever do anything, endanger these kids like this again? You'll have a professionally supervised conduct.

[Lauren]

Wow, crazy.

[John Bledsoe]

But then typically if the parent shows their learning or trying, they go right back to more of a shared custody.

[Chandler]

So what ended up happening with these kids?

[Lauren]

They share custody. But I think Kelly lives in Monaco now as a result because he's, you know, not in the US he's not an American. He doesn't live here full time. He lives in Monaco. She lives here, works here. But I think she has to, like, live there part time to like see her kid. Wow, Just so crazy.

[Chandler]

I mean, I do think that happens a lot though, in terms of, like, people end up needing to live in a certain place because, like, the children were raised there, the divorce filing happens there.

[Lauren]

Right.

[Chandler]

And they no longer can just move wherever they want anymore.

[Lauren]

Right. I have to share one funny detail. Okay, so because she was flying back and forth to France, like 70 times is the actual number. So she flew back 70 round trip visits, which is very expensive. And apparently because she flies back all the time, the airline cabin crew had offered to donate flying coupons to help her with her flights, saying, quote, it's a community gesture.

[Chandler]

Oh, my God.

[Lauren]

I know. Isn't that crazy?

[Chandler]

That's really sweet.

[Lauren]

Also kind of like funny like a celebrity, but sad. Sad and sweet. Anyway, let's move on to another one Though.

[John Bledsoe]

Okay, let me say one thing about California.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

California law, I think, and I would think New York law, Many of the more liberal states, it's a fact, if you divorce your spouse, you can plan on them having your kids half the time. It's very much half and half. Now, courts say that I'm going to assume it's half and half. I'll let either parent convince me otherwise. But I'm going to assume. We start out half and half. And you know, the funny thing about it is parents, most of them really like, really like it because now they can have their own life half the time. They can have a significant other, they can work, they can do the all these things, but it's very much 50, 50.

[Chandler]

I have heard that from a few divorced parents that like the 5050 split, there are pros to it because you get some of your own time. You know, you kind of get a little bit of more of your life back a little bit while you're raising children. Of course, there are some that are like, no, I don't want to not have my kids 100% of the time. And it breaks my heart. But some are brutally, brutally honest ones.

[Lauren]

You feel like that's been a positive shift?

[John Bledsoe]

I think people learn to live with it. Yes, I do think that. I mean, I'm sure that mom would have been much better for you guys, and I think you would have been less well off with me. But I think the reality is that's the way it is now. 50 50.

[Chandler]

Well, I mean, thank goodness we never had to do that. So a dark road.

[John Bledsoe]

Thank goodness. No, but it's just a fact.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Hi, I'm Stassi Schroeder.

[Lauren]

On my podcast, I share candid updates.

[Chandler]

From my personal life, chat with some.

[John Bledsoe]

Of my best friends.

[Chandler]

Friends about what's going on in our lives, give commentary on the latest pop.

[Lauren]

Culture headlines, and sometimes deep dive into random topics. I'm obsessed with, like, human design.

[Chandler]

It's a bit all over the place.

[John Bledsoe]

But that's how I like it.

[Lauren]

And you will, too. Listen to my podcast, Dassi, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chandler]

Okay. Well, speaking of financials, I think that's obviously such a big thing in divorce, so I want to briefly go through the divorce of Christine Baumgartner and Kevin Costner. I'm just going to do the tldr of this. We don't have a ton of time left, but I did want to get through it. So Christine Baumgartner, she signed a prenup with Kevin Costner. She was his second wife. He had a bad divorce with his first wife, and he never wanted to do that again. So he had an ironclad prenup with Christine. She got a 100, 000 payment when they were first married. And then a hundred thousand dollars on their first anniversary. The prenup said that she would receive a lump sum payment of 1.45 million and. And $30,000 a month for a rental house for her and their three children. That would be it.

[John Bledsoe]

30,000Amonth?

[Chandler]

Yeah. He makes about 1.5 million a month.

[Lauren]

Wow.

[Chandler]

That's what a forensic accountant found that she hired. While $1.45 million sounds like a lot of money. And 30,000amonth sounds like a lot of money. When you do have a spouse who has an exorbitantly bigger lifestyle than that, you know, can provide some friction. And interestingly enough, what her attorney told the judge in a hearing was luxury is in the DNA of these children at this point, trying to argue that they should not have to abide by the stipulations set forth in the prenup. Because these children were just not going to be able to vacillate between these widely different worlds. The house in Montecito. Chandler, you're acting like this isn't. Like this isn't a tragedy.

[Lauren]

No, it's sad. It's sad.

[Chandler]

The house in the Montecito that she had to move into was not Oceanfront, Dad. It was across the freeway. Okay? Wrong side of the tracks. It was about 3,000 square feet. It was not Montecito Cliffside compound. That was 50 steps from the water. That's what her attorney said the children were used to. So it is funny. We can be comical about it. And so it is kind of ludicrous. But there's also maybe some truth to it. So I'm curious, dad, what your take is on, like, a financial arrangement and situation like Christine and Kevin.

[John Bledsoe]

That surprises me that she would only get $30,000 a month. I suspect the $30,000 a month was for spousal support or alimony. I have to believe that the child support is just done by California guidelines.

[Chandler]

No. So, excuse me. So that was what the prenup said. So then her attorneys fought the prenup. And what they asked for was $250,000 a month in child support. What she ended up getting was 63,000, a flat payment of $1 million for expenses. Her 1.45 million, a settlement that was originally agreed to. And then her attorney's fees paid for. So still dramatically less than 50k a month. Right. So I'm just curious for your take on, you know, a situation where you do have a spouse who has such exorbitant resources. There are children, like, how does this work out? Do you see?

[John Bledsoe]

Generally, children are typically entitled to the standard of living of the richest parent. But even if I'm surprised she didn't get more. But I think that, I actually think that's common sense. I think that she probably, I mean, how much did you say she got per month?

[Chandler]

63,000.

[John Bledsoe]

Oh, that's good. That's enough. That's all tax free, by the way, but really.

[Chandler]

But 63,000 in child support, when you, your spouse is making 1.5 million a month, is that really the same standard of living? You know, 50 steps to the water, they didn't even have a view of the ocean.

[Lauren]

But in theory, it's not like he's spending.

[Chandler]

Dad, I'm serious.

[John Bledsoe]

I think it's sufficient. I'm a little surprised though, because I would have thought she would have received guideline child support, which is going to be about, for two kids. It's going to be about 20% of his gross.

[Chandler]

20% of his gross. So she really.

[John Bledsoe]

So what's what I, the taxes are another 45% of your gross, don't forget.

[Chandler]

Yeah, that's true.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Okay, but if he's making 750 after taxes in Newton's California, I mean 20% of that is still 140amonth. So she got about less than half of what she was entitled to in California.

[John Bledsoe]

I don't know, I, I'd have to look at that and see what happened there.

[Chandler]

People said is that her side went so hard on the children, are used to the private jets and like all this, you know, crazy lavish life. And I just think the judge was unsympathetic to that, which, I mean, I'm unsympathetic. I know.

[John Bledsoe]

I doubt any judge is making more than a quarter million a year.

[Chandler]

Yeah, okay.

[John Bledsoe]

That's a pretty quarter million dollars a year is pretty high up there on the government pay scale. So it's hard. You see these women come in and the, hey, this woman come in, this is like almost 10 years ago. And she says, I can't live on $45,000 a month.

[Lauren]

That's merch. That's new merch for us.

[John Bledsoe]

It's like, you kidding me?

[Lauren]

I can't live on $45,000 a month. We need a sweatshirt that says that.

[Chandler]

We really do. I mean, maybe there could Be some truth to that after, you know, you're used to 50 steps from the water, living the life.

[John Bledsoe]

But the fact that they say that and the judge has probably taken home 10 or 15 at the most.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

The fact that they would say that is so outrageous.

[Lauren]

It's not the move.

[Chandler]

It's not the move. And also there's no self awareness. And so it sounds like there really are limits. Even if you have a spouse that's vastly more wealthy than the other spouse, it's not like you're going to just get half of that.

[John Bledsoe]

So let's say you get an NBA basketball player or some star athlete and they're making a huge amount of money that parent of their child is going to get probably, I'm going to say 14% of their gross if they have a child.

[Lauren]

Even if it's just somebody random. Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

Of course, some lawyers would be creative to say let's have her put it in a trust for the child so we could pay for the child's college and things like that. And court say, nope, not going to the mother. If she benefits by virtue of having the child even though they're not married. That's, that's fine.

[Lauren]

It's funny, I remember her mom literally saying that. I have those words in my head for mom, like doing client calls anyway.

[Chandler]

Yeah. How often do you see a man or a woman with multiple ex spouses that they're paying child support and alimony to? Is that possible?

[John Bledsoe]

You do see that they actually have a hardship part of the calculation where if they make, if they have a lot of kids by more than one spouse, then they have to split it up into a fractional share for each spouse. So they do. Let's say you have five kids and by two different people. So then there's going to be a hardship deduction where the guy says, look at, I'm already paying support on these two other kids. You know, give me a.

[Chandler]

So everyone gets lost.

[Lauren]

Wow. I think we should move on to some rapid fire questions.

[Chandler]

You take it away, Chan.

[Lauren]

Okay, let's just give quickly. Dad, what's your general opinion on prenups? When should someone do a prenup?

[John Bledsoe]

I think it's a good idea to do, to do them always. I think it is. But make them reasonable.

[Lauren]

Okay.

[John Bledsoe]

And I think actually you can protect most of your property by just keeping it in a separate account and keeping it segregated.

[Lauren]

And don't commingle, don't combine finances.

[John Bledsoe]

Don't put your separate money in the joint account. When you get married, you can earn money and share what? You can both share the money, but keep your separate. Separate.

[Lauren]

Interesting. Okay, one thing.

[John Bledsoe]

I think I'll just jump in for a minute. I think it's much easier to represent fathers because if they get half and half custody, they are thrilled and they assume they're gonna pay money. If you get a female who is primary earner and she is paying support, she's always gonna be furious with 50.

[Lauren]

50.

[John Bledsoe]

And she's not gonna be happy having 50. 50. Yes.

[Lauren]

Got it. Okay. A question we have. And I think, like, we see this a lot with celebrities. One of them files first. They want to be the first person to file. Does that make a difference?

[John Bledsoe]

Super important to file first if you can. In the event of a trial, you get to tell your story first. And you also, just by virtue of it, are going to get more of the time.

[Chandler]

Interesting.

[Lauren]

Interesting. Wow. Yeah. Someone asked, what does a no blame system mean if someone cheats? That feels like it's important.

[John Bledsoe]

Doesn't matter. The court assumes everybody's cheating.

[Chandler]

Okay, that's a fluffy.

[John Bledsoe]

How would the court know?

[Lauren]

Right?

[Chandler]

Right.

[Lauren]

Another thing for Merge also is that where you got your men will fail you every time. Just, you know. Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

I think it's marvelous that both of you girls have worked hard at your careers. I was. I'm very much a feminist. I think every person ought to have a great career.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

It's true.

[Chandler]

I think it creates a difficult situation because if you feel vulnerable, financially vulnerable with your spouse, it might just turn you into someone. It brings out a worse part of you, you know, rather than. If you can be in a marriage in a place of feeling independent and you're in your power, then I don't know, I feel like that brings out generally a more positive side of people.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

You might stay in a relationship you don't want to be in and it's terrible to have to get employment that's undignified, so to speak.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

But all employment has dignity. What? Chandler, you don't laugh at that?

[Lauren]

Dad, someone wants to know, can children be normal after a divorce?

[John Bledsoe]

I think it affects kids a great deal.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

I think, you know, every kid watches their mom and dad fight and it can be torturous.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

So I. I do think that kids can reach some level of normalcy. But I think it's much better for kids to grow up in a loving home where their parents love each other and forgive each other.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Well. And for some people, I feel like it might be better to get a divorce than grow up In a tumultuous home where it's nothing but hatred and fighting. Yeah.

[Chandler]

I'm curious about prenups, though, because I feel like when we've talked about it in the past, I feel like you've had a sentiment that a prenup can kind of like, start the marriage off on the wrong foot, where you're kind of already discussing divorce.

[John Bledsoe]

I'll give you a caveat. You don't have anything to start out with. Yeah. Don't get a prenup. And I think I'll tell you something. Do not get a prenup that says, my work and my efforts go to me in a marriage. That is so terrible. It's one thing if you bring property into the marriage. You have every reasonable right to protect that property. But do not say, everything I do in this marriage is going to belong to me and you get nothing. That's terrible.

[Lauren]

What do you say? What? So just protect the property I bring into the marriage. That's kind of. That's a reasonable prenup.

[Chandler]

I think that's the purpose of a prenup in most cases. But a prenup can also stipulate that. Yeah. There's no community property. Everything goes to each person or. And what I'm hearing a lot and among some friends is like, the prenup will say, if you're with him for this many years, you get X dollars. This many years, you get X dollars. If you have really high net worth, you know, spouse. And even that to me just feels kind of icky. Yeah.

[Lauren]

It's just kind of like you're thinking long term in the wrong way.

[John Bledsoe]

You're just saying we're in the marriage for economic reasons.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[John Bledsoe]

Like. And you. And what you're telling your spouse is, you know, you're not gonna. You're not as important as I am. And you're not. You don't deserve exactly half.

[Lauren]

One last question I think I have for you that I think hopefully will leave us on a more hopeful note. What do you think contributes to staying married? What do you think is the secret to being married? How long have you been married to.

[John Bledsoe]

Mom for 42 years.

[Chandler]

Crazy.

[Lauren]

Amazing.

[John Bledsoe]

I think it's forgiveness, asking for forgiveness, being genuine about it. And when you're sorry, say, honey, I was wrong.

[Chandler]

Sorry.

[John Bledsoe]

Four best words. Honey, I was wrong.

[Lauren]

Love that.

[John Bledsoe]

At least to save a marriage.

[Lauren]

Well, dad, you're the best. Another four words.

[Chandler]

You are the best.

[John Bledsoe]

Oh, thank you, girls. And we didn't have one F bomb.

[Lauren]

I know we didn't. We didn't we kept it clean. Lauren can keep it clean.

[Chandler]

It takes a lot of effort. I will say we wax poetic about mom and how crazy and funny she is. She's quite the personality. But you just really, dad, we can't understate how much you mean to us. And we're just so thrilled you're our dad. We're so happy to have you here. You have to come back. Like, we barely scratched the surface.

[Lauren]

I know.

[John Bledsoe]

I love you girls. I'm super proud of you. Both of you. I think it's amazing. I have five amazing daughters and a fantastic son. So we are very blessed.

[Lauren]

We are. We will see you next week.

[Chandler]

That's right. Bye.